Are Bi men more or less masculine than straight men?

[JonnySW1]

I've observed a few situations now where a bi guy coming out - to a girlfriend or male friends - is somehow considered to be 'not quite a real man' because he can enjoy sex with men. In particular, if he prefers the bottom to the top role there is an implication that he is not masculine, or not masculine enough, anymore...

...Personally, I've always felt that because I can, say, give a deep throat blowjob or make a guy cum by straddling him and riding him, that I'm more of a man.

Ladies, what do you think when a man tells you he is bi?
Men, how do you feel?

[slipnslide]

I can't imagine there's a right or wrong answer to this question

[TaylorMade]

I've observed a few situations now where a bi guy coming out - to a girlfriend or male friends - is somehow considered to be 'not quite a real man' because he can enjoy sex with men. In particular, if he prefers the bottom to the top role there is an implication that he is not masculine, or not masculine enough, anymore...

...Personally, I've always felt that because I can, say, give a deep throat blowjob or make a guy cum by straddling him and riding him, that I'm more of a man.

Ladies, what do you think when a man tells you he is bi?
Men, how do you feel?

In this forum, most women either are dating/married to or into bisexual men. So it's not going to be a big deal. All things being equal, you give me two good men, one being straight, the other bisexual? I'll take the bi guy and in here, at least, I'll be in the majority.

On a regular forum on the other hand, you'll find women who just aren't into it, or are bimisandric. (Yes, I made up a word, DJM!)

*Taylor*

[Long Duck Dong]

more or less of a man ?????

personally, I do not judge people by sex.... it doesn't make a person more or less of a man cos they do things a certain way......

[tenni]

I think that it will depend upon how the person defines masculine. As Taylor wrote, people on this site are probably going to be more supportive of same sex sexual activity while the mainstream hetero perspective may be to see a man who engages in any same sex sexual activity as not masculine.

Bimen who enjoy playing a submissive role or interested in cross dressing would be seen as less masculine sexually but not necessarily in other ways that a person defines masculine. Personally, I would not consider a biman who wishes to be more submissive sexually in same sex sexual activity as less masculine but I would consider a man who wishes to cross dress while engaged as same sex submissive sexual activity as less masculine during the role play sex play. Other characteristics such as voice, mannerism, internal strength of character and other factors that define masculine for me would determine whether I saw the man as masculine over all.

One thing that I found interesting about how men tend to see masculine is that it often is defined in negatives while feminine is often defined in positives. A real man "doesn't" is often how some people (not all) start a definition of masculine. In the past it has been acknowledged in writings that the North American societies tend to define masculine in negatives.

[Realist]

An experience:

I once had a male lover who was the senior administrator of a hospital. He was fair, but very strict and even feared by some of his employees. (Especially those who failed to perform as their job outlines specified)

He was married, a retired Army master sergeant, decorated for bravery, held several degrees, and personified masculinity.

However, in his "sexual mode" he was subservient, and very compliant.....a total bottom. What a contrast to his working personality and his private personality!

I certainly did not think of him as less than masculine and I doubt that anyone else did, too. (Although, I'm sure that no one who knew him, would ever suspect he was bisexual, or imagine how he conducted himself in intimate situations)

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I think this is kind of a Sterotype situation...
Most Bi men that I have met are Kinda passive and getle, but not All of them. Not all Bi men are going to be skinny, Androgenous(sp) and feminine. I know of some Bi men who are big, masculine, hunks who are just as secure in their bi ways as they are in their hetro lives. They are just comfortable in their own skins, period. Just because a man loves cock as much as we women do doesnt make him any less of a man. I know as a bi woman I love bi men, mainly because they are secure enough in their manhood to not be labled and set in someone elses' type-cast.
Bi men are fantastic. Nuff said :} ;)
Cat

[darkeyes]

Nope..men r all big girl's blouses an even bigga Nells...:tong:;)

Credit not the above to me but to me mum... zif me wud agree wiv me mum..perish the thot.. tee hee:bigrin:

[TwylaTwobits]

Personally I think my bi man is more of a man than my straight ex. In more ways than one :tong:

[mikey3000]

I think bi guys are way more masculine, but then again I would.:cool:

[tenni]

darkeyes' mom
"men are all big girl blouses"
What are big girl blouses? I don't understand the metaphor?

[pasco_lol_cpl]

It depends on the definition of masculine and the frame of the stereo type you are using. I also find interesting the other comments about bi men in this thread, at least their behavior in the bed room.

Let me tell you a bit about myself and you make the call

I hunt, help the kids with home work, fish, am a pretty damned good cook, camp, no one can clean a house like me, shoot, am a good listener, love working on home improvement project, can cry during a movie, drive a big truck, but can be very submissive in bed with another man, etc..

So would you think that I am masculine, effeminate, or just another complex human being?

[Pasadenacpl2]

Good point Pasco. I don't think one's sexuality determines one's 'masculinity' as a man.

Now, flamers? Yeah, I'll question their masculinity. Not because they're gay, but because they actively go for being feminine (or in some cases a caricature of feminine). Great examples: On Will and Grace, Will is incredibly masculine most of the time. Jack, however, isn't masculine at all. Neither one of them is more gay than the other, so sexuality is not the key.

Pasa

[manwithplan2]

I was one of those 100% top types because I was afraid I'd become a "sissy" if I took a dick. I met a man and we hooked up. We fooled around a few times and then I topped him. After a few times with this man, who is perfectly masculine and has NO hangups about being bi, I realized that he didn't get up from the bed and priss away. So I flipped and tried it. Guess what? Liked it and am still a man here...

[NEPHX]

I hunt, help the kids with home work, fish, am a pretty damned good cook, camp, no one can clean a house like me, shoot, am a good listener, love working on home improvement project, can cry during a movie, drive a big truck, but can be very submissive in bed with another man, etc..

So would you think that I am masculine, effeminate, or just another complex human being?

I vote "complex human being"... and I think I want to date you :tongue:

[NEPHX]

Good point Pasco. I don't think one's sexuality determines one's 'masculinity' as a man.

Now, flamers? Yeah, I'll question their masculinity. Not because they're gay, but because they actively go for being feminine (or in some cases a caricature of feminine). Great examples: On Will and Grace, Will is incredibly masculine most of the time. Jack, however, isn't masculine at all. Neither one of them is more gay than the other, so sexuality is not the key.

There is clearly a difference in understanding on what "masculinity" is and how it is defined vs. what "mannerisms" are and being effeminate as "Jack" is doesn't change no matter what "position" he takes, how big of a tank he might drive, how many women he might "do" or what he wears... in the end, he is still effeminate.


effeminate: Having qualities or characteristics more often associated with women than men. See synonyms at female.

mannerisms: A distinctive behavioral trait; an idiosyncrasy.

masculine: Suggestive or characteristic of a man; mannish.

How one defines masculinity is generally based usually on the "norms" within the society/culture (sub-society/sub-culture) one is around most often or at the moment.

Compare how one defines what is masculine if you're out and about in the "gay" community and then later, vs. in a conservative main stream venue.

The person didn't change but the "ruler" sure did. In one venue, the guy might be considered very butch while in the other, he might very well raise questions about his sexuality. (if straight, he might still raise questions).

[Samantha B]

Personally I feel as a bi women I'd have to say, I agree with you. In many ways I find a bi man to be more of man. Mainly because, for the most part I find bi men tend not to where the "over the top straight male" gender straight jacket. The are more likely to please a partner I've found.

You should read a book called Real Boys (rescuing our sons from the myths of boyhood) by William Pollack, Ph.D. If you haven't already. I think you might find it will change your life, forever.
Kiss Kiss :)
P.S. Let me know what you think after you've read it.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes' mom
"men are all big girl blouses"
What are big girl blouses? I don't understand the metaphor?

Wimps... its a northern English expression 2 illustrate that men are soft... me mum uses it weneva sum daft guy tries 2 act smart an macho... North West English from around the Manchester area (Mum originatin from ther as ya may hav picked up in the past).. is used only haff in jest...;)

Scottish women wud call them big Jessies.. but me prefers the English expression..so much more colourful dontha think?:tong:

[FalconAngel]

If only sexuality were that simple.

I have known men of all sexual preferences and the "manliness of the men in question has been all over the map.

I have known straight men that seemed gay, BI men that seemed either Gay or straight, and Gay men that have been very masculine.

[onewhocares]

Well....in the last five years or so I have had several lovers from this site. I can honestly say that with one exception, that man now woman being a dear friend who is now transgendered. Now you have to remember that I am a six foot tall blonde who is a handful at best. I am adventurous and willing to be an equal partner to any man I am with. I do not consider the men I have developed a relationship anything but "manly men" in MY estimation. For me a man is self confident, self assured, able to express all the many facets of his being and knows how to please his lover, be they male or female. I have never felt like I was being dominated or vis a versa...unless that is the role play we chose. I have been with a straight man as it happens who is more on the femine side and well frankly, for me, the sexual aspect of the relationship was not fulfilling to me.

Only my thoughts and experiences.

Belle

[jamiehue]

the pretend manleeness ends when the bell rings.Gay bi str.

[just4mefc]

Personally I feel as a bi women I'd have to say, I agree with you. In many ways I find a bi man to be more of man. Mainly because, for the most part I find bi men tend not to where the "over the top straight male" gender straight jacket. The are more likely to please a partner I've found.

You should read a book called Real Boys (rescuing our sons from the myths of boyhood) by William Pollack, Ph.D. If you haven't already. I think you might find it will change your life, forever.
Kiss Kiss :)
P.S. Let me know what you think after you've read it.

Years ago I was fortunate to hear a presentation with author of real boys at the apa (american psychological association) annual conference it really was enlightening! I highly recommend the book as well!

[just4mefc]

It depends on the definition of masculine and the frame of the stereo type you are using. I also find interesting the other comments about bi men in this thread, at least their behavior in the bed room.

Let me tell you a bit about myself and you make the call

I hunt, help the kids with home work, fish, am a pretty damned good cook, camp, no one can clean a house like me, shoot, am a good listener, love working on home improvement project, can cry during a movie, drive a big truck, but can be very submissive in bed with another man, etc..

So would you think that I am masculine, effeminate, or just another complex human being?

I am with you on this. Complex really does apply to most people.

Now that being said I will answer the original question. Are Bi men more or less masculine than straight men?

I think what we are being asked comes down to the whole "gaydar" thing. What is your actual presentation as a "man"? In my experience bi men are often neutral in this regard. Not overly "BUTCH" nor "lispy" in presentation. But, like str8 men, run a gambit in between the extremes. I tend to present more on the masculine side myself. 5'10" 195 muscular, been a long time martial artist, construction trades etc... Yet most people seem to view me as a nice guy and not overly "butch" I am just me. I also really like both women and men. But I seem to be less attracted to the extremes in men or women. I would say one difficulty with being bi is we don't tend to carry our "Bi-ness" on our sleeves. So "Bidar" does not seem to work very well. I have several gay friends and when I go to gatherings at their homes I am often met with "you're BI? really???" by the gay attendees. So even gaydar does not work well for finding "bi" folks.

[biblkman]

I told my lady I was bi, close to 3 years ago, that's when I accepted my bisexuality, I have been with 2 men in my life 10 years ago and 3 years ago and she accepts my bi side as long as I don't cheat. But last week we were talking about it and she told me that she sees me as less masculine than a hetro man, not less then a man, just less manly, her words verbatim, I am a top and I have told her about my encounters in detail, but because I like my dick sucked by man and I like fuckin a man in ass and I like sucking dick, I'm less manly, I don't consider myself less manly, but I understand and accept why she does, it bothers me sometimes but it is what it is

[pasco_lol_cpl]

I vote "complex human being"... and I think I want to date you :tongue:
How ya doin? ;)

And of course you are on the other side of the nation :mad:

[eddiecoyote]

My two cents.

The short answer: Yes. However our definitions are flawed.

The long answer: The terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' as descriptors of behavior are problematic. As we struggle to adopt a non-gendered pronoun in the English language (ze, mer, etc...) we ought to do away with the gendered behavioral norms. Psychology is lagging behind in this aspect but I hope to see change on the horizon. I've not done a psych-lit search but if I find something I'll give you a synopsis.

There are cultural norms as to what is appropriate behavior for men/women in our homophobic societies. Rightly it is assumed by many that there are differences in the two dominant genders. I say 'two' because it isn't a neat dichotomy. There are differences in hormones, brain chemistry, birthing abilities, etc... But we also assume there to be sameness between the two dominant genders. Each is believed to be able to love, fear, anger, fret, worry, anticipate, hope, dream, despair, envy, desire, and others. There are some who believe that some things, such as valor, intelligence, bravery, fighting spirit, empathy, competition, and others are, if not divided neatly along gender lines, are severely lopsided in their application.

Lets look at a popular view. Certain traits then are held by certain genders in certain ratios. Women are 'more emotional' than men are. Yet it isn't denied that men are capable of emotions. It is understood for a father to break down and weep at the loss of a child. Men have a small emotional battery whereas women have a big emotional turbo powered engine.

There are normative behaviors we expect from others. I do not expect the person next to me at the grocery store to start clucking like a chicken. I don't expect the cars in front of me to drive on the sidewalk. These rules extend to many mundane things and help us navigate through the world. Through our interactions we also learn what our own appropriate behaviors are. Imagine you are sent into space and land on an alien planet with green people with odd behavioral customs. You must learn these in order to walk among them. Movies of trading places typify this culture shock often, usually between rich/poor, older/younger, male/female, or so on.

A major 'male' belief is that it is 'we' that do the screwing. We penetrate, others take it. We are on top (or on bottom when tired and let the other move for a while -grin) but we are in control. Male culture is about control and power and position. A male that gives away this control and power, even in matters unrelated to sex, is behaving in a very unstereotypical male manner. However, many do indeed choose lives not of power, control, domination and they are typically labeled as 'soft' or 'wussies' by 'real men'.

Women who attempt to play by the rules of men are not seen as playing along but as being alien, different, 'bitches', aggressive, and so on. They are accused of losing their womanhood and souls.

Yes. A bi man is less manly. But the problem here is not with the bi man, but with the definition of 'manly'. The term 'manly' is understood to be an aggregate of various values, behaviors, and so forth. However as I've joked before, anyone who doesn't think women are fighters or can be aggressive is invited to kick one of my nephews. Just make sure you call ahead to the emergency room. Momma bear is going to eat your lunch.

If we must use the terms 'manly' and 'womanly', among others, I'd like to limit their usage to describing physical characteristics. Of course we'd then add different words to further delineate the two.

[bi4asplay]

I am a man that has made my living most of my life y being a very masculine guy.I have never know of someone to catch me on their gaydar. I just happen to be a very masculine man that loves a toy or cock in me. Ladies that have played like this with me have said that even while being topped that they saw nothing fem about me.

[angelstew]

I've observed a few situations now where a bi guy coming out - to a girlfriend or male friends - is somehow considered to be 'not quite a real man' because he can enjoy sex with men. In particular, if he prefers the bottom to the top role there is an implication that he is not masculine, or not masculine enough, anymore...

Welp, being a straight woman who was just told that her fiance is bi-sexual (after two years) yes, in my mind it does make the man I thought he was less masculine. Im not passing judgement, Im telling you how I felt. He is a manly man, although he does have some feminine qualities (the man can shop like no ones business) but to me that was just his personal side which he only showed me, it bonded us and brought us closer. Once he told me he likes men, that they turn them on, I got grossed out. I seen him less than what he was to me before those words came out of his mouth. I would never tell him this, I am trying to be as supportive as I can, but it was a natural reaction to the information. And I realize that although I love him dearly, that if I cant handle the addition of possibly other males in our lives then I have to let him go.
Just being honest.

[BiRobb]

I've observed a few situations now where a bi guy coming out - to a girlfriend or male friends - is somehow considered to be 'not quite a real man' because he can enjoy sex with men. In particular, if he prefers the bottom to the top role there is an implication that he is not masculine, or not masculine enough, anymore...

...Personally, I've always felt that because I can, say, give a deep throat blowjob or make a guy cum by straddling him and riding him, that I'm more of a man.

Ladies, what do you think when a man tells you he is bi?
Men, how do you feel?

Let me riddle you this are bi women less feminine because they feel comfortable having sex with another woman?

[gen11]

Told to me years ago by a boss about one of his weird friends: Said friend, a little drunk, decided to accept the overtures of a gay man, take him up to his apartment, and rough him up a little. When the roughing started the gay man beat the everloving crap out of him with great ease then gave this parting remark: "Two things I love to do are suck cocks and whip ass."

nuff said

[mkaii]

I have never thought of myself as feminine because I am a bottom. I am in the military, I hunt, I fish, I camp, work on cars and all that stuff. I think my wife thinks I am more feminine because I am bisexual. It drives me nuts.

[pepperjack]

Can't help but notice the timeliness of this thread; hooked up with a good-looking 21 year old buck this past week-end on another site; he was specifically searching for a masculine older man. I immediately responded, sent him a pic when he requested. He was taken by it, we connected....the rest is history, as the expression goes. It was a brief, albeit very intense sexual encounter. He told me afterward he had never climaxed so quickly before. Halfway through...he was tugging at my clothes, wanting skin on skin contact; he loved it when I complied & revealed my body, said he loved older men. Point is...I'm very masculine, have lived a Spartan-like existence at times, & even now I physically outperform younger men on my job,but in this instance, I was the cocksucker....the submissive one; and he loved it!

[bi4asplay]

I am as masculine as a man can be. I do like playing with, sucking and, being topped by a man, if a lady is also in the mix. No one has ever accused me of bring Bi or Gay. The male in a couple that my late wife and I had over said no way when I took his cock in my mouth. He did not stop me and afterwards said he could not believe that I would do that and that it was the hottest thing he had ever done.

[whispering]

Welp, being a straight woman who was just told that her fiance is bi-sexual (after two years) yes, in my mind it does make the man I thought he was less masculine. Im not passing judgement, Im telling you how I felt. He is a manly man, although he does have some feminine qualities (the man can shop like no ones business) but to me that was just his personal side which he only showed me, it bonded us and brought us closer. Once he told me he likes men, that they turn them on, I got grossed out. I seen him less than what he was to me before those words came out of his mouth. I would never tell him this, I am trying to be as supportive as I can, but it was a natural reaction to the information. And I realize that although I love him dearly, that if I cant handle the addition of possibly other males in our lives then I have to let him go.
Just being honest.

Angel, your reaction is not uncommon--we've all been taught that men playing with men is somehow perverted. I wonder, though, if that isn't an issue you could get over--you appreciated his feminine qualities before he told you--except that it seems that he wants to have sex with men while in your relationship. That might be a different issue. I can imagine that you might feel the same way if he announced he wanted to screw other women....what do you think?

[whispering]

Interesting thread, and timely, as Emile Griffith, the great welterweight champion who killed a man in the ring in the sixties, just died. Masculine? Off the charts.

But there were rumors even then he was gay, and his opponent for a title bout called him a faggot before a match to taunt him. During the match, Griffith unleashed a lethal barrage (fifteen hits to the head in six seconds), that killed the guy. Decades later, Griffith came out as bisexual, and was almost killed himself when he was beaten up by a gang outside a gay bar at Times Square. How tragic, for everyone.

Personally, I think that some degree of bisexuality is very normal, and part of a healthy man's psyche." Feminine" qualities such as empathy, consideration, gentleness, or and warmth are part of the make-up of any masculine person, no matter how they are expressed. Even the most hardened "man's man" can only have sex with another man by allowing those qualities to flourish inside him....

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Like I said before not All Bi men are wimpy, effeminine, wusses. I know some big, muscular, hunks that by first meeting that you would never Know they were Bi. They are Totally comfortable in their sexuality, and are beautiful to watch. The perfect mesh of masculinity and sensuality. Hunks in, and Out of bed.
(Is it gettin' warn in here again??) lol
Fanning Cat

[elian]

This is a social stereotype rooted in the culture in which you are raised.

With respect to Realist's example that is part of the allure of it to me - the cultural stereotype here is that men must always be guarded, prepared and willing to protect the people they love. Women must nurture and raise the family.

In sexual relations you are seeing someone at one of their most vulnerable times. To me, there is psychological relief in admitting to someone in private that I cannot always be a knight in shining armor, and still having them accept me, sharing love and pleasure.

Personally I do feel that I look at men the same way that women look at men, which is probably different then the way a gay person would see men, but that's just me. I know there are other men who are quite sure they are a man and that they like cock!

Growing up, so many of the things in my life were not absolutes but rather blended together that for me, it makes sense to think of myself as half female, although I know I am certainly not as graceful, thoughtful and beautiful as a real woman.

Do I view myself as less of a man? Sometimes, it does cause conflict in my mind - sometimes I feel dominant and sometimes submissive - if men could openly acknowledge that they love other men here I think I would feel less conflicted about it. Some of it really is wanting to share love, affection and friendship more than wanting sex.

It may sound silly and people might be ashamed to tell the truth in public but remember, there are even some straight men who prefer to be submissive in sex play.

If one of my male co-workers liked using a ball gag during sex I would not think less of him as a person, or believe that he could not perform their job just because of a sexual fetish. But then again, that's probably do to my experience of being bisexual.


An experience:

I once had a male lover who was the senior administrator of a hospital. He was fair, but very strict and even feared by some of his employees. (Especially those who failed to perform as their job outlines specified)

He was married, a retired Army master sergeant, decorated for bravery, held several degrees, and personified masculinity.

However, in his "sexual mode" he was subservient, and very compliant.....a total bottom. What a contrast to his working personality and his private personality!

I certainly did not think of him as less than masculine and I doubt that anyone else did, too. (Although, I'm sure that no one who knew him, would ever suspect he was bisexual, or imagine how he conducted himself in intimate situations)

[MidMichCouple]

I think like some of the other quesions posted on here it wouldn't be fair or accurate to answer with an across the board answer. I know bi/gay guys who are extremely masculine and I know straight guys are are very feminine. That's more a question of indivisual personality than sexual orientation. Just my opinion.

[bigi56]

Way more masculine than straight guys.

[jem_is_bi]

I have no clue if that is generally true. But, I know that I am definitely masculine. I am very happy being male. I am very happy not being a straight male.

[Annika L]

Is there an underlying assumption here that less masculine is a bad thing? That being feminine is a bad thing? I bristle a bit at that. Personally, part of my bisexuality is a strong feeling that extreme masculinity (inability to embody any feminine qualities) and extreme femininity (inability to embody any masculine qualities) are both less than ideal. I think yeah, if you're taking on sex roles that are relegated *by our society* to women, then yes, by definition of feminine, that is a feminine quality. But as a woman, I would say that is far from a bad thing. And that is also quite different from saying the act emasculates you or makes you non-masculine, or less of a man dammit!!

[tenni]

"Is there an underlying assumption here that less masculine is a bad thing? That being feminine is a bad thing?"

I'm going to go out on a limb (that I may change my mind later) but I would say yes the underlying belief is that less masculine is a bad thing for many men. I know cognitively that it should be what you wrote. It "should be" that be who you are. Do what feels comfortable. All of that is also true.

I don't really know too many men who aspire to be feminine though. I know that it is a bit more of a challenge to define masculine in positives than negatives for a lot of men. Strong stereotypes are impossible to maintain but yep..most boys want to be masculine men. Most men prefer to be masculine..with some leeway and flexibility though.

I think that most biguys would prefer to be seen and project their masculinity. Then again we have a section of bimen (and some straight) who aspire to be feminine and cross dress for a variety of reasons. Sorry, but that is not masculine in my books. (not that there is anything wrong with it ..in Seinfeld defensive position..lol)

[void()]

Think it all relies upon the perspective of whom is lover/s of the bi man in question,
and possibly a bit upon the man's self perspective. More oft than not I act straight,
masculine. That aside, have been hit upon quite a few times by guys whom keyed
in on "something being off" in my "act". *shrugs* YMMV

[pepperjack]

Just last week subdued, humbled, an abusive, hostile, aggressive boss! Today while going through the grocery checkout line dressed in my traditional ' masculine' denim, I kept fantasizing about sucking the gl young guy checking my groceries; go figure!

[scapegoat1987]

This discussion reminds me of the old adage that a dear old queen once shared with me: "Butch in the streets, femme in the sheets." As if to suggest, the butcher one is, the more likely the chance that he's a bottom. Likewise, the more effeminate one is, the more likely he is a top. Whereas this is certainly not always the case, it has been, in my experience, correct more often than not. I realize that the top/bottom dichotomy really has nothing to do with the butch/femme dilemma. I just always get a kick out of deconstructing stereotypes, because I preach against them but still find myself getting caught up in the moment. It's not easy to teach an old dog new tricks. :eek2:

[bib4u]

The majority of bisexual men I've known behaved masculine, atleast in public,however, these roles could rapidly change when out of the public eye!

[marine20]

i'm a former marine , Vietnam veteran, bodybuilder , biker, been married twice , have kids and grandkids, nobody would ever dare call me a wuss. so there is your answer .

[RustyPete]

(1) i'm a former marine , (2) Vietnam veteran, (3) bodybuilder , (4) biker, (5) been married twice , (6) have kids and grandkids, (7) nobody would ever dare call me a wuss. so there is your answer .
Jarhead20: Ditto fer me on UR first instance, ditto on the second, 1/2 ditto on the third, prefer my pickup on the fourth, ditto on the fifth, sixth & seventh: call me "Sarge" and Ah'll answer aye? - is my answer, too.

[darkeyes]

i'm a former marine , Vietnam veteran, bodybuilder , biker, been married twice , have kids and grandkids, nobody would ever dare call me a wuss. so there is your answer .
Wotta Wuss!!!:impleased:cutelaugh

[marine20]

darkeyes , i'm man enough to laugh at myself too !!

[DiamondDog]

Men who claim they are masculine are anything but actually masculine, and this includes body builders. I have seen gay and bisexual men who look masculine and then they open their mouths and they are feminine. A lot of heterosexual/straight men are actually feminine in certain ways. Just because certain men like to be a bottom or passive for anal sex or submissive during sex that does not make them feminine.

[elian]

"Are Bi Men any less masculine?" I know some gay men who are very masculine and some straight men who are very effeminate - given those two extremes I don't believe there is a correlation between someone's sexual orientation and how they self-identify with their gender role in society.

I tend to agree that the stereotypes are hurtful. For example, I don't like the fact that some straight men are afraid to tell other men that they love them, even if there isn't a sexual connotation to the feeling.

The one thing that most people can agree on is that they resent being labelled - put in a box - with regard to gender and expectations. If we are all unhappy then why not change the rules? Oh course, not everyone is unhappy..

[NMCowboys]

This discussion reminds me of the old adage that a dear old queen once shared with me: "Butch in the streets, femme in the sheets." As if to suggest, the butcher one is, the more likely the chance that he's a bottom. Likewise, the more effeminate one is, the more likely he is a top. Whereas this is certainly not always the case, it has been, in my experience, correct more often than not. I realize that the top/bottom dichotomy really has nothing to do with the butch/femme dilemma. I just always get a kick out of deconstructing stereotypes, because I preach against them but still find myself getting caught up in the moment. It's not easy to teach an old dog new tricks.

Those are lyrics from the song Downtown by Tom Waits off the Heartattack and Vine album and he wrote about a lesbian who was "high on crank (meth) that was butch in the streets and femme in the sheets."

The lyrics to that song are not a reflection of gay or bisexual men at all. Despite what the queen told you "men" who are feminine or effeminate are usually always submissive/slave types that are downright annoying with how they whine and beg and are way too desperate for a masculine man's attention in the hopes that he'll fulfill their kinks. Femme "men" are also pretty much always total bottoms, and are more inclined to suck a dick rather than get sucked, or be versatile for oral sex.

Or on second thought somebody does look like the type that looks "masculine" but then once they get into bed they just want to be a total bottom/submissive or slave, and flowers and a purse pop out of your mouth when they're "caught up in the moment". ;) Why are you projecting the way you are sexually upon all bisexual men?

[whispering]

Personally, I take it as a compliment when someone says I'm "less masculine" or even feminine. I'm a boss and a leader of men (and women), but I have no need, and little use, for being macho. That kind of stuff just gets in the way of how I prefer to be with other people. The girls in our office consider me "one of the girls" and the guys in the field take me as "one of the guys", and I wouldn't have it any other way. In private, when I'm with a guy, I feel like their girlfriend and am happy to be treated that way. :oh:

[NMCowboys]

Personally, I take it as a compliment when someone says I'm "less masculine" or even feminine. The girls in our office consider me "one of the girls" and I wouldn't have it any other way. In private, when I'm with a guy, I feel like their girlfriend and am happy to be treated that way. :oh:
LOL that's NOT a good thing at all.

[Bigerman]

What is more masculine than a guy with a guy? What is more femine than a woman with a woman?

[whispering]

LOL that's NOT a good thing at all.

Really? I love it, and everyone seems happy.

[NMCowboys]

Really? I love it, and everyone seems happy.

Femme men, or men who think of themselves as "one of the girls" are seen as a bad gay male stereotype, and are a major turnoff to most bisexual and gay men since it's affected or fake behavior.

[silberwolf1960]

I played with a couple for a few years and he preferred to have me take his ass then our other friend that was more on the fem- bi side. His wife told he wanted more of a masc- bi man to take his ass.
They knew I hunt and fished like they did. And yes I fucked our fem- bi friend also, sometimes all four of us. I think it depends on what your partners want.
Myself, someone to enjoy the outdoors would be just right.

[JackBear]

I KNOW that I am masculine because I HATE to shop! :bigrin: Well...not entirely. I have sometimes shopped adult bookstores and gay bars, but that was before I settled down in my old age with a woman who would never understand. So now--I just suppress.

[cuttin2dachase]

I'm sensually and orally bi and not interested in anal, topping or bottoming. I love to kiss, make out, lick, stroke and have body contact with my lovers, whether they are female or male. Most hetero people of both sexes would automatically judge me to be feminine or gay because of my enjoyment of intimacy with men. I DON'T CARE ! To me there is nothing fem about kissing men and sucking their cocks. If anything, it makes me feel more masculine knowing that I can please and be pleased by women and men. I don't think any lover I've ever had, female or male, has ever considered me to be less than a masculine lover in bed. I've only ever been with 2 men I considered femme or effeminate and they were both gay men. I enjoyed those experiences, but much prefer masculine bi married men who love kissing, body contact and the illusion of making love with me in the same way we would make love with a woman (minus the anal penetration). I've been with several very masculine men who enjoyed wearing women's panties to bed. It was a huge turn on for both of us and I did not consider them fem at all, just masculine, hot and kinky !

[newlynymphos]

I rather enjoy wearing more feminine clothing, my tattoos are towards the feminine, love to be dominated, yet all this is under a cloak. Few people know I'm bi, though on the CD side I am getting more aggressive, wearing female garb (that could honestly be mistaken for male attire by some) more often, and wearing my 12" mini kilts more places :) Even buying crop tops now to show off my belly tattoos and piercing :) I am complex. I am not passable (by face, though my body can be very convincing!), so I chose my CD attire carefully , so as to accentuate both my traits :)