Hate

[Annika L]

:eek: My partner had a disturbing experience today in a local Target.

She noted a woman with three children, aged 10ish, 8ish, and 3ish. As often happens in such places, the children were being unruly. Now a priori I do not blame her for their unruliness. I know how children can be...I was one myself once for a few years. But in a very short time, this woman accumulated three important strikes against herself:

(1) She threatened to take the ball her oldest son was bouncing away from him at least three times, and never once followed through with the threat. Each time my partner passed them, the lad was still bouncing the ball, and the woman was still yelling at him and threatening to take it away. To my eye, this is basically teaching the kid that rules are unimportant and that the only consequence for bad behavior is scolding.

(2) Unable to control her oldest child, the mother started abusing her youngest. At one point, she was spanking the three-year-old, jamming him roughly into the shopping cart, and yelling fiercely at him for exactly the same infraction as her 10-year-old had committed. Some of you may be thinking, "well, if she won't correct her oldest, at least she's correcting her youngest." But not only is this shameful punishment, especially in public, but the message to both children is clearly: "when you reach a certain age and size, there will be no consequences for your actions. I don't dare hit my oldest any more, but until you get bigger I'll damned well hit you!"

(3) Finally, in frustration, she screamed a vitriolic "I hate you! I hate you!" at her oldest child. By this point, I could barely stand to hear the story, as it was being related to me.

My point in posting this is that I have heard many here say in many contexts that they don't understand how some people can reach a level of hatred where they inflict violence/harrassment/death on LGBT people, just because they are different from themselves. Hatred and disregard for others is learned and fine-tuned from an early age...ask yourself what the children learned about hate and about respect for fellow human beings from this particular Target outing.

Dear friends, if a woman can hate her own 10-year-old child simply for bouncing a ball, then none of us is safe.

[TaylorMade]

I knew long before then. Three words : Andrew. James. Schwarz. Took place about 2 hours from me. People had an idea that his useless bitch of a stepmother was abusive. But, either they thought a woman wasn't capable, or that it probably wasn't that bad. His stepmother beat him to death.

He would be just a year younger than myself if he lived.

*Taylor*

[TwylaTwobits]

Hate is the opposite of love, and it has to exist for balance, Annika. What you describe is someone with a severe lack of parenting skills and obviously at the end of her rope.

I remember once when my middle was about a month old, so my oldest would have been 2 years 7 months old, we were shopping at a grocery and Josey kept asking me for a toy. I told him that Mom couldn't afford that right then and we'd get something another week. That we were their to get some diapers and food. That was fine til I went down an aisle with some toy cars hanging from a hook. You know how that goes, they throw general merchandise all around the store in the hopes of an impulse buy or as a bribe for kids.

I had reached down to get a larger pack of the diapers off bottom shelf and saw him stand up in the basket seat out of the corner of my eye reaching for a car. I swatted him against the outside of his thigh and sat him down telling him if he did it again I'd spank him in front of God and everybody. He sat their like an angel while I got the diapers. What I didn't know was an older woman was behind me and had seen the whole thing. She actually came up to me and thanked me for the swift light discipline and said she worries more about the ones that take their kids to the bathroom or say "wait til we get home"

And as for mothers being capable of hating their children, some of the ones who love their children are worse. Munchausen by proxy, ring a bell? There is little difference between humans and animals when it comes to children. A male lion will kill any cubs from the last alpha lion when it takes over a pride so that the lionesses will be ready to breed with his cubs.

The world is full of things that make me cringe but we have a choice in how we behave. The woman in your story obviously made the wrong choice but she could have been at a difficult time in her life. While it's easy to sit in judgement from your posted observations, I know as a parent that there are days you wish you just had a "do over".

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Now I'm probably going to catch hell for this but hey, that's just me.
I was raised with old fashioned disipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child was Gospel in our lives. None of us kids ever acted out in a public place like these little monsters now are Allowed to do. If my Mother or my older brothers had to speak to one of us younger ones, we would be in deep ca-ca once we got home, or in the parking lot depending on the action..lol. And Spirits forbid, if my 5 foot tall, 130 pound soaking wet Mother had to snap her fingers at one of us, we knew we was dead meat. And there aint no punishment worse than having to go out and cut yer own switch.(I see Tex grinning over there..lol) If they said you were getting a spankin', you could bet you life that it was going to happen.

And there wasnt any of this "Wait til yer Father gets home" BS, or "No TV for a week" ect.
All four of my children were raised the same way. If you were well behaved in the store, resturant, ect, you were well rewarded, and I only had to pop my youngest acorss the butt Once in a public place. I think he was 2. They were spanked when/if needed and praised lovingly when they were well behaved.

Kids nowdays Know that they have their parents by the short hairs and that CPS is a large game to them. They'll flat Tell you 'My Teacher told me that if you even Tell me you're going to punish me in any way, that you could be arrested for it" Again, that's pure Bullshit.

Those are the ones who Should have had the rod a long time back, none of this wishy-washy, namby-pamby crude. If a few of these nasty little shits were to have that happen and be Taught that every action has a consequence, they wouldnt be pulling half the bullshit that they are Allowed to get away with today.
And in the case of the Mother screaming at her kids and mistreating them..maybe she needs a time out, Or she needs a switch taken her 'lil ass too.
My:2cents:, take it or leave it.
Cat

[Georgie_Girl]

I don't think it's right to ever tell your child that you hate them. :(

I try hard to stick to the punishments I give my daughter, but it's all for nothing if her father and grandmother undermine my authority. I actually had to carry her bodily from church today.

[tenni]

The mother clearly was at her wits end and lacks parenting skills for the situation that happened. Her own parents may have lacked parenting skills and she may not realize the impact of her words and actions.

I remember a sad story about a little girl who was the youngest of around seven kids. I don't know how much of a joke it was but I recall someone telling me that the little girl thought that her name was "bitch" for the first three years of her life. I knew her about four or five years later. Her behaviour was unusual but not acting out deviant (yet). I remember seeing the difference in her and after I was told her early year's verbally abusive life wondered if she might end up being a teenage girl who becomes sexually active way too young as a means to seek love. There was a sadness to her and also a very sweet if not craving attention side to her. This was years and years ago but I still remember her sadness even though I do not remember her name anymore and her face is only vague in my memory.

[mikey3000]

The main rule I follow through on as a parent is, "Say what you mean, and mean what you say." I give one warning and if that doesn't work, I always follow through on the punishment.

I too have spanked my girls, but only once each, and an early age (about 4-5). Never had to do it since. I think what scared them most was my anger. But it taught them at an early age that I mean business. And it did hurt me more than it did them :tongue:. But I would never, ever say I hate them. That is just so wrong. When a parent reaches the end of their rope, pack it in and go home.

[tenni]

"Kids nowdays Know that they have their parents by the short hairs and that CPS is a large game to them. They'll flat Tell you 'My Teacher told me that if you even Tell me you're going to punish me in any way, that you could be arrested for it" Again, that's pure Bullshit."

I'm curious what some of you think about Cat's scenario. I've heard about this type of threat a few times and know certain kids will try it. Have your kids tried this type of manipulation to get their own way? How did you deal with it? I know one parent who said,...go ahead and call Children's Aid. The kid did. The social workers were required to follow up on the kid's false claim. Even after the kid recanted, the parent was left of a "list" should future accusations be made. Geee...scary

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Well Tenni, my youngest son tried this when he was about 13. I caught him stealing money out of my purse and we had a huge argument about it. I told him if I ever caught him near my purse again, I'd blister his ass and I didnt care how old he was, or I'd call the cops personally. He picked up a lamp and threatend to "Bash my head in" He held it in an imposing manner and was serious about it. So was I...I promptly popped him right between the eyes. I then picked up the phone and made two calls while he was trying to recover and pick himself up off'n the carpet. (We found out later that he was shooting up, that's why he had become so violent)

Within 10 mins a Cop that knew the family arrived and so did a CPS worker. Cop asked Bill if he had threatened his Mother with a lamp and he replied 'Yeah I did and Bitch knocked my ass out. Arrest her!"

Cop told him"And you actually InTended to do your Mother harm with that brass lamp then..."

Bill said "Damn straight I did. And she hit me. Shoot her!"
He told the CPS lady, "She needs to be in jail for belting a minor. Do your job, Bitch"

Well, the fact that I was still recovering from my back surgery and was still on crutches showed the CPS worker that I posed little threat to a boy who stood taller than me at the time. Plus the fact that his eyes were dialated better than a Cat's.

Bill got a night in jail for his efforts, and got a month in Juvenile Facility. I didnt go to jail, and Bill had to explain to the kids in Juvie How he came there looking like Rocky Racoon. We had to go thru this "Parents Training Course for underaged Addicts"
The CPS people told us that it wasnt uncommom for them to recieve as many as 500 complints from kids Per Month claiming that parents were "Violating their Civil Rights" by grounding them, or trying to install some sort of discipline or ground rules at home. And in the schools the kids are told By their teachers and other facilitators that Parents havent the right to punish their kids any more...

Today my son is 36, he has talks to school kids about drug use, and how it can mess up your life forever. We laugh about that incident, and he has told his kids that Gramma dont take no shit. lol He has told his son, "Hey, your not too big for me to take over my lap, so straighten up, Boy" lol

Kids are scary enough nowdays without them thinking that they can have their partents buffalo'ed by the law....
Cat

[mikey3000]

Wow. Good for you Cat. You probably saved his life that night.

I believe that children should have a healthy fear of their parents, and I chose to instill that fear at a very early age. Not terrified of us, but afraid of the repercussions of disobeying us. I don't want to be their friend, that can happen when we're older. I believe that kids need lencouragement, affection and guidance (and occasionally discipline) from their parents, not friendship. That will come if you do everything else right.

[tenni]

Thanks for sharing the story Cat.

Under the circumstances of the drug use, you clearly were seen as self defense. The parental counselling was probably a good thing to go through for you so that you gained insight into your son's problem? The police and worker saw the situation for what it was. No, in the case that I wrote, it was my niece when she was about 14. It wasn't clear at the time what was really going on. It was hard on my sister because after she was called and told to get down to the school within in a half hour or the cops would come after her, her life was difficult for a year or so. My sister actually held her down physically and that ended up in my niece reporting her. My niece said that she was going to an all night dance and my sister said that she was not. That started with my sister physically blocking the door exit. It led to push shove on my niece's part and then wrestling on the floor. Now, in hind sight, there was something strange going on with my niece. At the time, my sister didn't know why her daughter was acting this way. Something happened sexually to her around the age of 11 but even she doesn't know who it was exactly. I still don't know and won't bore you with details. Suffice to say that she was /is not "normal" even now. I wonder how many kids who make this threat really are kids in trouble for other things like drugs or in my niece's case probably some form of sexual abuse? At one point my niece was a prostitute and at others a type of holy roller style of Christian. Before she was 18 years old she had been raped several times and beat up by many boyfriends. She told me about being thrown through a window at one point by a man.

Still schools need to tell kids that they do not have to take abuse and may report it. This is for the poor kids who are being beaten or sexually abused at home. Even the initial story of the thread is not a good one. We don't know how much abuse these boys are getting. We don't know if the store incident is an isolated case or worse happens when no one is around.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Now thats where we disagree. I believe in having my children's friendship as well as their love and respect. It goes both ways. I had an unhealthy fear of my Father because the old Bastard installed nothing But fear and pain. I didnt want that for my kids and it didnt happen that way for them with us. Our kids were taught respect and honor, and that we werent the ememy. We taught them what we did to show them the proper way of being. Not all kids follow their parents teachings, but they do remember it. I am just as much a friend to my kids now as I was when they were little. And in turn now they are installing the same values to Their children. Its disipline tempered with love and caring...not brutality and hate like I had with the Sperm Donor.

Each person has their own methods for teaching, and we reap what we sow. :};)
Cat

[katz368923]

my youngest tried that "I'm gonna call the cops on you" bit. Ever loving dad had only been asleep for 3 hours and wasn't in the mood for all the drama before school. So, he looks at our son and said "you wanna call the cops, I'll do better than that for you." He loaded kid into car and drove him to the local police station. When they get there, the biggest cop ever know to man was walking out. Husband explained situation to cop, cop looks at son and said "Boy, you have no rights other than the ones your parents let you have. You are not being abused, so go home and behave yourself. Your parents love you, but they don't have to listen to you." That was the end of "I am going to call the cops " bit.

I spoke with a gentleman who works with at risk teens. He said that if more parents would quit using the EXCUSE of CPS taking the kids the next generation would be in a better shape.

Being a parent is the most stressful things a person can ever do. Kids will push and they know what buttons to push and at what times to push. As parents we are to do the best by our kids.

The woman with the children in the first post does not "hate" her kids. We don't know her situation or her stress level. Believe me when I say this. If she hated her kids, they would not have been in the store with her, they would have been at home and locked away in some dark place.

[*Lou*]

Seems to me that it's as much what she IS teaching her kids, as it is what she ISNT teaching them. Teaching them to hate, be volatile, irritable, and lack self-control are what she IS teaching them. What she isn't teaching them is compassion, love, understanding, and sensibility, but yet by the same token she is NOT teaching them that there are consequences to ALL our actions, no matter how big or small those actions are perceived to be.
I was raised VERY similar to Cat, and it appears as though from where I stand that there MUST me some sort of not necessarily "fear factor" but something similar instilled in children that makes them think "O.K. if I do this....THIS will be the result". In simple terms, consequences. There is a fine line between disciplining a child, and abuse these days, a lot of that can be attributed to political correctness in our society, and SOME parents using the "sign of the times" excuse, "oh I don't have time with work and all the other distractions in life" in my belief...that's just BS. YOU created the child/children, YOU take the responsibility to raise them to be decent productive members of society, and you do that by setting the correct examples by your words AND your actions as a parent.

[FalconAngel]

I had kind of a similar experience at the laundromat a couple years ago.

A Latino woman and her 3 young children. Not sure of the ages, but ranged between 12-13 (oldest) to about 4.

They were running around creating problems for everyone there and the mother did nothing.

Finally, I was at stage 1 of annoyance (speaking to them in a calm rational voice) and said that they need to calm down because they are disturbing everyone. That lasted all of 2 minutes. That cycle kept on until their mother came around and decided that it works better to escalate on me, rather than control her own children, all the while the eldest kept yelling "Cracker" at me, even after her mother told her (at least 5 times) to stop.

She told me not to talk to her children, to which I replied that she needs to restrain them from annoying everyone else in the place. They are her kids, so if she won't do it, someone else will.

Well I skipped annoyance phase 2 and went to hostile phase 1 (raised voice) and at that she started to threaten to call the police.
To which I responded "Do it. Let's watch as you lose your kids to the state. After all, DCF doesn't need a lot of reason to do that and since you don't want to handle the responsibility of parenting, maybe the state can do it for you.".

Eventually the PD showed up and I explained to the police what the woman and her kids had been doing, since they had left in a hurry after the altercation.

Parents are supposed to act like parents, not babysitters.