12 dead 25 wounded

[darkeyes]

My ex husband was round last night and very upset. It appears a mutual friend of ours was wounded in the Cumbrian slaughter which left 12 dead, several critically injured and a couple of dozen wounded but seemingly not so seriously. We had a cottage in the area at Ravenglass (he still has it)which we used to go to for weekends when we could and for such a thing to happen in what is an astonishingly tranquil and beautiful part of the world is a tragedy beyond description.. I have not seen our friend for a few years but we still exchange Christmas and birthday cards, but thankfully he isn't too badly hurt and hopes to be discharged from hospital in a day or two. This must be such a relief to his wife and family. I spoke to his wife last night on the telephone and Kate and I are going down on Sunday to visit.

I am not going to go into a great rant about firearms.. those who know me know how I feel about them.. but when something like this happens to one you know in a part of the world you know well, then it brings things home to us in a way reading a newspaper, the web or watching telly never can. When it happened I recognised so many of the locations in the television pictures and memories flooded back of when Brian and I were frequent visitors.. My thoughts and love go to the wounded, to all we know and to all those we don't, but most of all to those whose loved ones will not be coming home.

[TwylaTwobits]

That's awful, Fran. Hugs ya close, that was a true tragedy. I read that story and just felt like crying. Brother against brother, friend against friend all for a will.

[darkeyes]

Awww ty Twyla.. I think the will story has now been dismissed.. he does seem to have been concerned that he had been rumbled about £60,000 he had in the bank for which the Inland Revenue were after him because it had not been declared.. he was concerned about going to jail. Whether that set him off or not I have no idea but several of the killings do seem to have been targetted.. his twin brother and his solicitor I believe. Whether some sort of dispute had arisen about that, or whether there was some other reason or combination of reasons we shall just have to wait and see. We may never know for sure.

The wood in which Bird killed himself is close to Boot. Boot is in Eskdale, which is particularly beautiful and holds a special place in my heart, because Brian proposed to me in the Boot Inn on Easter Sunday in 1999. Funny how things turn out with time. How the world changes in ways in which you would never dream..

[CuddlyKate]

I have never met Frances' friend although we have occasionally spent some time in the lakes, but she is right. It is a very peaceful and beautiful area and the last place such a thing would be expected. My thoughts and love are with everyone who is affected by this tragedy.

[tenni]

The questions being asked here are about Britain's strict gun laws and yet this tragedy still happened. I heard that Bird (?) had permits for the guns and had them for quite some time. As the details as to how /why this has happened, it will be interesting to see if your gun laws change.

[Gina7777]

I don't see why anyone should be allowed to have a gun, except for very exceptional circumstances. The thing about guns is, if you do suddenly flip, or lose your temper, it's so easy to just point and pull the trigger. At least if you're going to use a knife or some other weapon you've got to get up close to the person, and see and feel who you're about to injure, and get their blood on you (sorry if too morbid). A gun can just be discharged and then you can run away without seeing the pain or damage you've inflicted.

I don't think people should be licensed to own guns. Full stop.

[SophiaBee]

Problems with gun control, is that its not the gun that is the problem, It's society and humans that are the problem. We humans tend to be much more violent than we ought, & unless you can destroy every single weapon on the planet humans will still find a way to hurt others.It sucks that this happened I feel bad for the victims of this person.

[darkeyes]

The questions being asked here are about Britain's strict gun laws and yet this tragedy still happened. I heard that Bird (?) had permits for the guns and had them for quite some time. As the details as to how /why this has happened, it will be interesting to see if your gun laws change.

There are bound to be changes Tenni. However it may be that those changes will vary from country to country within the UK as Westminster and Edinburgh evaluate why it happened and what can be done. I am unsure of what powers Belfast and Cardiff have as neither has as much power as Edinburgh within the devolution format so it may be that Westminster will legislate for them also.

It seems Bird did have licenses for the weapons he used and this will obviously be looked at closely. After the massacres at Hungerford in the 80s and Dunblane in the 90s firearm law was tightened but it is impossible to say just to what degree they affected gun crime in the intervening period but I doubt it would be less than had gun law not been changed after eithe.. it is less in many parts of the country but in the last year Cumbria has seen an increase in gun crime.. knife crime is the big winner from what I can see...

Questions should be asked about firearm law at all times to see how we can best deal with the issue.. the person who said they should all be scrapped I agree with wholeheartedly as I also agree with the comment that they would find something else to kill people with.. yet it is easier to deal with someone close to you carrying a knife than it is someone firing at you with a shotgun, rifle or pistol from some distance off. But I am a realist as much as the next person for all my ideals and just hope that somehow something good comes of it as a memorial to those who died and were wounded.

[Realist]

Think about this: If just one person had the skills and a permit to carrying a firearm, the fellow may have been stopped long before anyone else had been killed. This coward knew that it would be extremely rare if anyone could oppose him, so he did what he did with immunity.

In a restaurant in Texas, a man shot and killed several patrons, while a lady, who had a permit to carry a weapon and the skills to use it, had to stand by and watch, because the restaurant's policy was NO GUNS. Her own father was murdered in front of her eyes.

Recently, a man in China killed several school children with a sword.

My point is, people kill people...who knows what motivates them? If someone decides to murder, they will use whatever's at hand.

If a one person has the skills and a permit to carry a weapon, they may be in a position to prevent further deaths. Karate, a good piece of timber, a pitch fork, etc, can be just as lethal...at short distances. But, a handgun makes a weak 75 year old lady, just as equal as a 250 pound gorilla!

I am nearly 70 years old and have carried a weapon since I was in my early 20s. On 3 occasions, my skill and abilities with a weapon have prevented me, or my loved ones, from being stabbed, robbed, or psychically accosted. At no time have I had to fire my weapon, because, letting my assailants know that I had one, prevented further actions on their parts. Their advantage over me was eliminated, putting us on equal standings.

We live in violent times and as we become more diverse it's probably going to get worse. To survive, responsible citizens may have to take appropriate actions to protect themselves and maybe others.

You can just hope you're never put into a life-threatening situation, or prepare yourself for facing danger head on, if it occurs.

It is my contention that you either become "sheep"; helpless, timid, complacent, subject to the whims of others..........or a "sheep dog", being prepared for danger, if it occurs, and have the means and skills. meet those threats.

Each person must do what they feel best with, but I refuse to be a sheep!

[darkeyes]

Think about this: If just one person had the skills and a permit to carrying a firearm, the fellow may have been stopped long before anyone else had been killed.


.. or there could have been an even greater bloodbath as people were caught in the crossfire...

.. it is too raw at present for me to go into a huge barney about guns, but my argument is that the more citizens who carry guns every day, the more likely massacres like this are going to occur...

.. but after the weekend if anyone wants to do so with me feel free...

[Realist]

I won't debate this with you, Lady. I know how vehement you are about your ideals and I'm not one to attempt to change them.

I stated my own thoughts and welcome you to express yours. But, if I knew I had the capability to do something about a situation like this, I would.

You can argue about "collateral damage" but you will rarely see anyone with skills, as policemen, SWAT teams, skilled permit holders, creating that.

That's all I'll say about this issue.

[Annika L]

Fran, I'm very sorry to hear this...I feel for you and for your friend. Best wishes for his recovery and for your peace of mind.

Realist, you're a well-spoken gentleman...a well-spoken gun-totin' gentleman, but a well-spoken gentleman nonetheless! :tong:

[richarddennis]

Sadly, common sense is never a virtue of a murderer.

RIP...

[Canticle]

My ex husband was round last night and very upset. It appears a mutual friend of ours was wounded in the Cumbrian slaughter which left 12 dead, several critically injured and a couple of dozen wounded but seemingly not so seriously. We had a cottage in the area at Ravenglass (he still has it)which we used to go to for weekends when we could and for such a thing to happen in what is an astonishingly tranquil and beautiful part of the world is a tragedy beyond description.. I have not seen our friend for a few years but we still exchange Christmas and birthday cards, but thankfully he isn't too badly hurt and hopes to be discharged from hospital in a day or two. This must be such a relief to his wife and family. I spoke to his wife last night on the telephone and Kate and I are going down on Sunday to visit.

I am not going to go into a great rant about firearms.. those who know me know how I feel about them.. but when something like this happens to one you know in a part of the world you know well, then it brings things home to us in a way reading a newspaper, the web or watching telly never can. When it happened I recognised so many of the locations in the television pictures and memories flooded back of when Brian and I were frequent visitors.. My thoughts and love go to the wounded, to all we know and to all those we don't, but most of all to those whose loved ones will not be coming home.

Knowing the Lake District, myself, I can guess how closely affected all in the area will be. This has been a great tragedy and it is so sad, when someone, who has been described as ''a normal bloke,'' should have something happen, which causes them to just lose it. A tragedy for all those involved.

I'm sorry to learn of one of your friends being injured, but I hope his recovery will be swift and the memories of the event, not linger too long. Although, I am sure he will have flashbacks, for a long while.

I think anyone involved, their relatives and friends, will be in our thoughts and only good vibes sent out to them.

[darkeyes]

Fran, I'm very sorry to hear this...I feel for you and for your friend. Best wishes for his recovery and for your peace of mind.

Realist, you're a well-spoken gentleman...a well-spoken gun-totin' gentleman, but a well-spoken gentleman nonetheless! :tong:

Hahahaha.. I like the second para.. yes even I can acknowledge that some gun toters are gentlemen.. Brian is a gun toting gentleman too... but before we married I made him move the gun cabinet from the den to another room which had egress from the house.... that was the only room where I allowed him to play with and admire his toys.. I caught him with a box of shotgun cartridges in the kitchen one morning and God did he catch it in the ear.. and his gun toting old bag of a mother (who was no lady) got the sharp end of my tongue more than once for having the cheek to enter the house with her shotgun under her arm!!! O happy days.. tee hee..

..but thank you Annika on a more serious note.. he will be ok physically, but Canticle is right...the mind will be his and many others' problem.. don't worry I'll cheer him up...:)

[sammie19]

Sorry about your friend Fran. I hope he and all those injured make full recoveries and that time will heal the mental scars.

Meg and I were down there only a few weeks ago for the Mayday holiday and visited Whitehaven. You are right. Having been to a place brings a tragedy alive especially if as in our case, we had a lovely time.

ps. I got tiddly in the pub in Boot.

Much luv. xxx

[darkeyes]

Auntie Fran knows zactly wot "tiddly" dus 2 u wee Craigie... nev mind.. me will find out tomoz jus how "tiddly";)..... not that me can talk.. jus 1ce or twice Fran has kinda disgraced 'ersel ther an all in dim an distant past...:rolleyes:

[mikey3000]

.. or there could have been an even greater bloodbath as people were caught in the crossfire...

.. it is too raw at present for me to go into a huge barney about guns, but my argument is that the more citizens who carry guns every day, the more likely massacres like this are going to occur...

.. but after the weekend if anyone wants to do so with me feel free...
You won't get a huge barney from me. I do agree. Obviously Bird was stable enough to get permits, and gifted at their use. How do we know other stable and talented usere won't snap either.

So horrible, but people die every day from guns. It's the times we live in. I rather be shot then risk killing someone else in error.

[darkeyes]

You won't get a huge barney from me. I do agree. Obviously Bird was stable enough to get permits, and gifted at their use. How do we know other stable and talented usere won't snap either.

So horrible, but people die every day from guns. It's the times we live in. I rather be shot then risk killing someone else in error.

Sumtimes Mikey Darlin'.. ya hav got me hackles up wiv summa the things yas sed.. but for wot yas sed above..all is forgiven...:bigrin: