Are you Bisexual or Pansexual? [Archive]

tenni

May 15, 2010, 11:05 AM

I've been reading a few posts that confuse me at times. They seem to be connected to bisexuality and pansexuality (also called Omnisexuality). If you are straight or gay, then this thread is not for you.

I'm wondering who on this site sees themselves as either bisexual or pansexual? Although the following meanings may be debated, for clarification, may we use the following differentiation.

Pansexuality (also referred to as pans), or omnisexuality is a sexual orientation, characterized by the potential for aesthetic attraction, romantic love, or sexual desire towards people, regardless of their gender identity or biological sex. Some pansexuals suggest that they are gender-blind; that gender and sex are insignificant or irrelevant in determining whether they will be sexually attracted to others. For others, an individual's sex, gender expression, or gender identity can be a key factor of attraction, despite the pansexual individual's wide range of sex and gender attractions.

Bisexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender. Unlike pansexuality, it does not specifically include people who fall outside the gender binary. Pansexuality has been described as a "means to skip the binaries and essentialism of 'bi'."

Personally, I identify as bisexual as I have no sexual attraction to intersexed people. I've not meet a completely transitioned transgendered person and so I'm not sure how I would deal or be attracted to one who has transitioned completely. I suspect that I would accept them for the gender that they present themselves in but I just don't know. I am attracted to men who are masculine and women who are feminine. Although I am attracted to both genders, I do not seem to be attracted to cross dressers but can accept a little cross dressing in a man if his other behaviour and thoughts seem masculine to me. I understand that some bisexuals may have an attraction to cross dressers who are bisexual. Maybe, these people are really pansexuals or is it a gender question and not a sexuality question?

hmm I seem to have lost part of what I thought that I posted. May I add that for some strange reason I feel a little guilt for not being able to be pansexual. I know that is illogical though. Our sexuality is not a politically correct thing. It is what we are. We are attracted to whomever we are attracted to. Or is it some form of bigotry for a bisexual not to be a pansexual?

Gay2Bi

May 15, 2010, 11:32 AM

Well, as I posted on another thread, I'm really having trouble finding a label that works. However, based on your definitions above, I'm bisexual. I'm physically attracted to men - and occasionally to women - but romantically and emotionally only attracted to men.

I don't find myself physically or romantically/emotionally attracted to intersex individuals, and I suppose it's a matter of "mixed signals." When I'm attracted to a man, I'm attracted to his masculine qualities - flaming queens turn me off instantly. Similarly, when I'm attracted to a woman, it's because of her feminine qualities - butch lesbians (and I've known quite a few) turn me off too. I think both intersex individuals and crossdressers send a mix of signals that I simply don't respond to. It's not that I find them repulsive or anything - I don't want to run screaming from the room - but they just don't, um, "raise my interest," as it were.

MarieDelta

May 15, 2010, 11:42 AM

Not everyone is attracted to everybody, there isnt any need to feel guilt about it.

Personally I find most people attractive (or not) based on their personality, not body type.

M, F, T, I, GQ, whatever, just as long as you are someone I mesh with, I can find you attractive.

tenni

May 15, 2010, 11:47 AM

Marie
Then according to these definitions are you then a pansexual and not a bisexual?

transcendMental

May 15, 2010, 11:53 AM

Personally, I identify as bisexual as I have no sexual attraction to intersexed people. I've not meet a completely transitioned transgendered person and so I'm not sure how I would deal or be attracted to one who has transitioned completely. I suspect that I would accept them for the gender that they present themselves in but I just don't know. I am attracted to men who are masculine and women who are feminine. Although I am attracted to both genders, I do not seem to be attracted to cross dressers but can accept a little cross dressing in a man if his other behaviour and thoughts seem masculine to me. I understand that some bisexuals may have an attraction to cross dressers who are bisexual.

It's funny that you distinguish so carefully and usefully between bisexual and pansexual, and then completely confuse the meanings of genderqueer, transsexual, and intersexed.

Genderqueer is about presenting oneself outside the gender norms, frequently to the point where you can't easily figure out whether they are male or female.

A person is intersexed if they were born with ambiguous genitalia and/or a nonstandard chromosomal configuration (there are at least 11 others that come up pretty often, aside from XX and XY). But there are XX people born with penises, and XY people born with uteruses who have even had children.

A transsexual has the brain structure of one sex, with the physiology of the other.

There is nothing about a distaste for intersexed people that would prevent a person from being pansexual. If you are attracted to (obvious) men, (obvious) women, and genderqueer people (frequently where you can't tell from their presentation whether they are male or female), that would qualify you as pansexual.

If you ever met a "completely transitioned" transsexual (and you almost certainly have, but just aren't aware of it - you may have even had sex with one and not known it ;)), chances are, you would perceive them as just a man or woman (whichever they've transitioned to), and would be attracted to them or not in exactly the same way you would be to any other man or woman. At least until they told you they were transsexual, at which point you might start judging them differently. Which is why they might not tell you.

By the way, genderqueer people and crossdressers fall into the category of transgender; transsexuals are transgender until they "completely transition"; intersexed people are not necessarily transgender, but can be, particularly if their ambiguous genitals are surgically "corrected" in infancy, which happens too frequently - but "corrected" the wrong way, effectively making them into a transsexual.

tm

MarieDelta

May 15, 2010, 11:55 AM

The two arent mutually exclusive. Yes I am pansexual.

Pansexuals are actually a much smaller community within the bisexual community. We aren't pushing for our own "community" because what is the point in further dividing up people?

More people are begining to define themselves as Pansexual or Omnisexual,perhaps because there is greater awareness of the diversity of the human experience?

just4mefc

May 15, 2010, 12:06 PM

Well I think the labels of bi or pan are actually of little use or meaning. What I mean is, from a biological point of view (or is that BI-ological) we are all "bisexual" to some extent. Therefore, IMHO, bisexuality is the norm. The only terms we need are straight and gay. I use and accept the term bisexual as a loose definition of my sexual identity because it is convenient for others. It is not part of my identity, it is not WHO I am per se. I am simply ME. Now I see that in our social lives the label's can help us to more quickly identify others of similar interest but even that has little bearing on who we might have some kind of relationship. I once had a 6 month sexual relationship with a man who, before and after, labeled himself as straight and I have had sex with a few labeled "lesbians" as well. I think most labels are just shortcuts to determine if we might like someone. Someone says to me I have this gay friend (I might think ok she is most likely open minded and I bet does not have much of a sense of humor) or this republican guy I know (so I think homophobic I bet) of course my label associations are my own personal stereotypes and may or may not prove to be true.

So my point in all this "we don't need no stinking labels" and cutting up the labels we all ready deal with is just tedium.

I love cats and dogs so now am I to be labeled a BIpetual?

I love football and other things too, does that make me a "footballian-middle heighted-pansexual-bisexual-goateeian-martial artian-artsy lovin-etc etc etcerian"?

I hope I have not offended anyone, Just my humble opinion.

Gay2Bi

May 15, 2010, 12:18 PM

I use and accept the term bisexual as a loose definition of my sexual identity because it is convenient for others. It is not part of my identity, it is not WHO I am per se. I am simply ME. Now I see that in our social lives the label's can help us to more quickly identify others of similar interest but even that has little bearing on who we might have some kind of relationship.

That's pretty much my take on it. I haven't built my identity around being gay or bi or having blond hair and blue eyes. At the same time, the labels can serve as a useful shortcut when trying to find potential partners.

of course my label associations are my own personal stereotypes and may or may not prove to be true.

That's a point I was trying to make on another thread - we all have our own understanding of these labels, and what I feel a label means might not necessarily be what others feel it means. This can sometimes lead to quite a bit of confusion! :)

I love cats and dogs so now am I to be labeled a BIpetual?

No, I think that's a different fetish...:tongue:

tenni

May 15, 2010, 12:35 PM

I think that an individual may define themselves as they see appropriate. However this is labelled a bisexual site. People posts comments and refer to a variety of actions and desires. I am inclined to think that it may be inappropriate to present a sexuality on this site without clarifying. We are after all discussing a minority among minorities. A gender issue is not a sexuality issue. People are sometimes attempting to identify themselves. If someone states that they are attracted sexually to others regardless of their gender and the same poster states that they are bisexual this gets confusing. In reality, they are pansexual. Posters who meet the criteria for being a bisexual are not being given a fair perspective.

If you go with a broad understanding that it doesn't matter then you are probably pansexual and not bisexual. Just as a straight person may feel some discomfort and (yes) repulsion at the idea of same sex involvement a bisexual may feel revulsion and not interested in having sex with an intersexed person. Several male posters have posted their attraction to intersexed porn. They are really pansexual are they not? Why confuse me and others that there is something wrong with us as bisexuals when we find nothing attractive about such sexual attraction? Yes, the idea should be whatever floats your boat but lets try to keep things clear? You are a pansexual and not a bisexual? Yes? No?

Cherokee_Mountaincat

May 15, 2010, 12:56 PM

Why do people have to be put into classifications anyway? People should just be who they are, and take great pride and delight in that factor.. :}
Happy as I be. :bigrin::cool:;)
Cat

MarieDelta

May 15, 2010, 1:13 PM

tenni

May 15, 2010, 1:26 PM

Marie
Of course..I'm binary...I'm bisexual...lol There are greys in life but I don't think that bisexuality is one. just my opinion..and maybe not just my opinion. There are a lot of posters on this site who are not bisexual. This makes me think that the comment that true bisexuals are a very small minority. Are they a small minority on this site as well?

TaylorMade

May 15, 2010, 1:30 PM

Definitely bisexual. I recognize the difference between the genders and know that men and women attract me in different ways. While I love transmen and transwomen as people, it usually translates to a more platonic and non sexual love and relationship. There are pansexual people , and they're cool, just my boundaries don't push as far. :p

*Taylor*

ErosUrge

May 15, 2010, 1:31 PM

Pansexuals are actually a much smaller community within the bisexual community. We aren't pushing for our own "community" because what is the point in further dividing up people?

Wow! There are so many interesting offerings here and I don't know if I can really contribute anything that hasn't already been covered.
I have identified myself as being bi for the last 12 years now though knowing all my life that I was attracted to both sexes. Giving my sexuality a name helped me to come to terms with my sexuality. But I do agree with MarieDelta as I feel we have too many divisions by identifying with what we think or believe we are whether sexual or racial....
For me to name my sexuality was merely a way to understand myself better. But I certainly don't like to parade my sexuality as the gay community has chosen to do. And I must point out that I'm not condemning how many gays choose to organize and network, etc...all the better in so many ways. But the danger can be an arrogance about our sexuality or whatever our beliefs are. I suppose I have some of that in me being bisexual...god, I hope not.
As far as attractions go, I am most definitely attracted to TG people but those who were male that still keep the male genitalia in place...
I'm attracted to women emotionally, physically, and mentally; the whole package you might say. But with men, it changes. With the men that are dear friends, I care for them emotionally and mentally, but not physically and have absolutely no interest in them sexually. With the men I am physical with, there are no deep emotions and not much of a mental connection either...the sex is what draws us together and nothing more than that. Crossdressers don't appeal to me at all really.
I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, but in essence, I do feel there are too many classifications. Human relations have a need to be vibrant and classifying things though helpful in some ways have a very sterile quality.

cornholejoe

May 15, 2010, 2:16 PM

i am bisexual but only when doing a threesome do all my one on one sex with women 0nly like to do it with a man when a woman is there also

Annika L

May 15, 2010, 2:48 PM

Marie
Then according to these definitions are you then a pansexual and not a bisexual?

The two arent mutually exclusive.

Aren't pansexuals in fact a *subset* of bisexuals?

If you're sexually attracted to everyone, regardless of sex or gender (i.e., pansexual), then aren't you also attracted to both polar genders (i.e., bisexual)?

I know this is splitting hairs. I mean, the OP still makes sense...but if pansexuals are a subset of bisexuals, then you can't be pansexual and not bisexual.

softfruit

May 15, 2010, 2:56 PM

'Pansexual' is to 'bisexual' as 'gay woman' is to 'lesbian'.

tenni

May 15, 2010, 4:10 PM

" mean, the OP still makes sense...but if pansexuals are a subset of bisexuals, then you can't be pansexual and not bisexual."

How can pansexual be a subset of bisexuality if a bisexual is attracted to both genders but not intersexed people?

Bisexuals are sexually attracted to male and female genders only. Pansexuals are sexually attracted to male, female and intersexed genders. Bisexuals are binary while pansexuals are not binary but omni-ary(?).

softfruit
No, I do not think that pansexual is synonymous with bisexual. They really are different sexual attractions. Pansexuals are much more inclusive. Would you want to have sex with an intersexed person? If so, then you are not bisexual but a pansexual.

Cat
"Why do people have to be put into classifications anyway?" It is not as much a classification as who we are sexually attracted to. Why not consider yourself a man then? Why bother classifying yourself as a woman. It is because that is your gender and that is who you are. Bisexuals are not pansexuals, straight or gay. They are bisexuals. That is who we are and is part of our identity.

cand86

May 15, 2010, 5:36 PM

Pansexual. And I've written (http://pop-shot.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-does-it-mean-to-be-pansexual.html) all about the "gender-blind" thing before, too.

Sometimes I will tell others or refer to myself as bisexual, because it's easier for those who don't know the term "pansexual", don't believe in it, yada yada. But I've always identified that way.

Annika L

May 15, 2010, 5:43 PM

How can pansexual be a subset of bisexuality if a bisexual is attracted to both genders but not intersexed people?

Tenni, you give a definition of bisexuality in your OP. It does not mention lack of attraction to intersexed people...in fact, I don't have any idea what you think intersexed people even have to do with the discussion.

Your definition was: "Bisexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender. Unlike pansexuality, it does not specifically include people who fall outside the gender binary."

By your own definition, pansexuals are not excluded from being bisexual. Pansexuals are attracted both to the same gender and the opposite gender, and so fit your definition as a subset of the whole.

FalconAngel

May 15, 2010, 6:29 PM

Thinking about it, based on the definitions given, I could possibly be Pansexual, but I have always identified as Bisexual. Of course, that was long before there was a "pansexual" definition.

MarieDelta

May 15, 2010, 6:33 PM

For what its worth I dont know that Intersexxed folks are desirous of being outside the binary.

Mostly its genderqueer people you dont find yourself atracted too or am I missing something?

roy m cox

May 16, 2010, 2:51 AM

well for me if it has a penis or a vagina um cuzz i like both of them then yes i am very very bisexual and well i like dressing and wearing woman's things and shaving parts of my body like a woman and well hmm don't know if that makes me bi or pan,, but i keep doing it ,,

:male:+:male:=yummy
:female:+:male:=yummy
:male:+:male:+:female:+:female:=oh god yes :tong:

:bipride::bipride::bipride::bipride:

tenni

May 16, 2010, 6:55 AM

Anika & Marie
I don't think that I have posted this but as someone else wrote that I have nothing against those that are not clearly male or female, I am just not sexually attracted to them.

Although I do not agree with everything in the following article I do agree with what is written about pansexuals and bisexuals.

"While pansexual individuals are attracted to men, women, transgender, transsexual and intersex individuals, bisexual individuals are only attracted to their same sex or the opposite sex."

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-bi-sexual-and-pan-sexual/

For me, there is a clear difference between bisexuals and pansexuals. I do not see pansexuals as a subcategory of bisexuality. Pansexuals are sexually attracted to those that I am not attracted to. Call me dumb but it just doesn't work for me that way. If you have breasts and a penis, no thank you. Actually, I have found that I am psychologically more interested in bisexuals and not gay men either as sometimes there seems to be a difference in socio-political expectations. That is beyond sexual attraction though. I'm not sure about other bisexual men but I am not attracted to a cisman who presents himself in women's clothes either. Since I have no interest in cross dressing, I could not clearly say whether such a person was more pansexual but they may be as they are not acting in a binary way? just my thought at the moment. That is for that person to decide..I guess?

As far as the term genderqueer, there are just too many various categories for me to distinquish or comprehend (transsexual, transgender, intersex, etc.) As I wrote, those of us who are bisexual and not pansexual may just prefer to keep it simplier as far as sexual attraction is concerned. I mean no disrespect to those who are not clearly male or female. Whether an intersexed person is desirous of being in a binary way is not relevant from my perspective. They are outside of the binary way and I am not sexually attracted to them.

Annika L

May 16, 2010, 11:14 AM

tenni

May 16, 2010, 12:41 PM

MarieDelta

May 16, 2010, 12:47 PM

Anika
I must be thick as a brick these days because I do not get that meaning at all.

"Bisexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender."

Nowhere are transgendered, etc. people mentioned. Unless you are going by gender identified by DNA etc. Most would identify gender by visual methods. A transgendered person who had made a complete transition etc. would then be the gender that they transitioned to and probably a bisexual would accept them as that gender.

The definition of bisexuality does not limit itself to just the two polar genders.
It is inclusive, not exclusive of pansexuality.

Bisexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender.

Pansexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender and everything inbetween the two genders.

tenni

May 16, 2010, 12:56 PM

just4mefc

May 16, 2010, 3:48 PM

Well I think the whole question continues to be Tenni saying "who is like me and does not like transgender ppl, sexually speaking" and to others points here it does bring up who the hell cares? Nothing against you Tenni. I am only responding to the argument here. I have been a man of science and have read many a research paper in my life. So let me share with you one important research phenomenon, there is no such thing as absolute proof! There are always pieces of data that fall out of the data scale. They are known as "outliers" and we simply disregard them in our data pool. It does not mean they are not there. So why do I bring this up? Because even if your labels were to be "accurate" you will find exceptions all over the place. In my earlier post I implied republicans as homophobic and lesbians as lacking a sense of humor. Yet I know many republicans who are gay (not the norm but they do exist) and I think Ellen Degeneres shows the inaccuracy of the comedy issue. So even if I manage to somehow get everyone into these groups it still will not mean a damn thing. I might be certain I have no interest in TG ppl and then without knowing the person is TG I develop a crush and find I am attracted to them. But once I discover they are TG now what? Do I run away from someone I all ready like? Or am I actually showing my own bias once again? It is similar to dating a light skin person and then finding out they are "black". There appears to be no point to delineating the "bi" population. It can be interesting to see just how diverse a group we are I guess. So I label you as "bi" based on your definitions then I label myself as pan. So now what? Do you know me better now? do I know you any better? Can I now say you are pan-aphobic? NOPE! I don't know anymore about you then I did before. Oh, I do know I like ppl with breasts and penis' in one package and you don't. But again so what?

In terms of the sub group argument, you wrote the original question and defined the terms, therefore it is on YOU to clean up what you wrote. Again nothing personal, I am not against, nor for you here. YOU continue with the tedium of gender, 3rd gender, blah blah blah. I think you are pushing the label in order to make it clear you are not one of "those" people. It seems to be a personal agenda for you. Perhaps you want to be able to say you are BI but are concerned you will be thrown into a broader group that you are not comfortable with? Hence why I don't like labels. If you need to have an identity of "Bi not Pan, damn it" then cool go ahead. But, speaking from my personal experience (and from a few researchers that presented at the APA) most bisexual people do not really split labels to this degree. Trying to split the bi group into too many area's. Now the TG group seems to have many identities as well. Some would be offended to be called bi they were born a woman (with a penis) and love men so they are straight tg person right? Again just too many delineations. Go with what works for you. But don't try to force a tedious delineation on others. When it comes to sex if you are blowing me I don't care what you label yourself. Bi, straight, gay, hell you can call yourself petter pan if you like, I only care if you are good at it ;-)

One more key point from your reference link:
Articles on DifferenceBetween.net are general information, and are not intended to substitute for professional advice. The information is "AS IS", "WITH ALL FAULTS".

The article has no listed author and no references what so ever. In other words a non-substaniated opinion.

from the article I present "Bisexuals most often have the pressure to choose between gay and straight. They identify themselves as homosexuals or heterosexuals"

Need I say more that this is a quack article? and yet you want me to label myself or others based on this?

So cut to the chase, without the mumbo jumbo of pan bi labels, what is your question? I read between the lines as "I have no interest in tg/ts/tv ppl, how about you?"

tenni

May 16, 2010, 4:47 PM

Just

Well, I guess that I'm a quack and a transexual hating guy eh?

JEEZus people. Yes, I posted that I didn't agree with all in that reference.

However, there is no evidence that I can find that definitely states that Pansexuals are a subset of bisexuals. Give me proof. I do find that some do see it as a separate sexuality. The point of this thread is fucked on a semantical point.

FredinSJ

May 16, 2010, 5:16 PM

Bisexual or Pansexual? PROOF AT NEXT PARTY!

Well, I'm polysexual, trisexual (try.anything), pleasuresexual (too old to get preg), and omnisexual (consenting adult humans in a small group of swingers).

We can avoid the whining about BI-sexual since we now have progressed from BI-nary computing to HEX-ADECIMAL SEX programming so we can have it sixteen ways if we like. Just be nice, be polite and tolerate others. My preferences are small groups of senior swingers, in the same room, with mirrors and mirth.

The 3some is the easiest to "get started" since the interpersonal dynamics seem the easiest to "add just one more personality" to a loving couple. And to progress from mere net talk to fun action in the bedroom. Does that make us POLYAMORY or TRI-SEXUAL?

Not necessarily, and not for the long term..... IMHO.

The Bisexuals whom I know on this site and in real life, seem to like 3somes the best, since it's easier to "go guy on guy" or "girl on girl" in a small group with the other partners, sharing and urging on the action. Maybe that makes us, politely, PHOTOSEXUAL?

We like to watch adult erotica (not raw porn) and copy the action: bi, bi, small orgies, 3, 4, 5, college reunions of adults.... does that make us MOVIESEXUAL?

Tenni, nice thread you started HERE AS THE OP.... we don't need to split hairs, do we? I shaved all mine off............... PROOF AT THE NEXT LIVE PARTY..... Call me anytime! LOL

FredinSJ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Annika L

May 16, 2010, 8:36 PM

I have to wonder what Anika and Marie are carrying on about? I asked if people found themselves to be bisexual or pansexual. There is a difference whether pansexuality is a subgroup or a separate group of sexuality.

I think that it is a distraction to carry on with this argument about whether pansexuals are a subgroup. Why?

LOLOL, tenni, yes, of course it is a distraction! I said in my first post here that it was splitting hairs and an unnecessary fine point. Why? You made the claim that Marie was "pansexual and not bisexual"...that struck me as impossible, given your definitions and I said so...and then explained why...and then re-explained.

*You* are the one who keeps going on insisting that clock-radios aren't a kind of clock. And *I* keep asking myself, why?

Finally, as anyone who looks at my name can tell...it has two n's. :tong:

rissababynta

May 16, 2010, 8:58 PM

LOLOL, tenni, yes, of course it is a distraction! I said in my first post here that it was splitting hairs and an unnecessary fine point. Why? You made the claim that Marie was "pansexual and not bisexual"...that struck me as impossible, given your definitions and I said so...and then explained why...and then re-explained.

*You* are the one who keeps going on insisting that clock-radios aren't a kind of clock. And *I* keep asking myself, why?

Finally, as anyone who looks at my name can tell...it has two n's. :tong:

Agreed.

grizzle45

May 16, 2010, 9:04 PM

I appreciate this debate! I do think there's a lot of hairsplitting going on, which I myself am quite often guilty of, but I think the benefit of this discussion is raising the awareness of gender and/or sexual identities that are often unacknowledged in our language. I have identified as bisexual for 20 years, but have in the last few years begun to shift my understanding of attraction, sex, and gender to include persons who might not be "man" or "woman". I like the term pansexual and think it is a better fit for me than bisexual, but I haven't taken up the habit of using it. At this point in my life I think using a new term to describe myself would be too much of a hassle, despite the fact that I think it would be useful for perpetuating awareness and discussion about the continuum of human sexuality and gender. However, I do use Queer more often than I use bisexual and while I do fear it obscures my own orientation (people might think of me as a friend of the BTGL ;) community rather than being non heterosexual myself) I find the term to be the most inclusive term for discussing marginalization and oppression. Queer also has academic and political associations that make it easier to facilitate discussion.
The most frustrating aspect of all this (language, labels, etc.) is that I'm all too aware of how invisibility is an important aspect of "liberation" and social justice, so I always fell compelled to specify my orientation when it comes up. I can't just say "queer" and let people figure it out. I'm afraid, as I said, they'll just file me away under "weird" or "ally" and not question their own either/or dichotomy. *sigh* I think I'm doing this less and less, though.

nakedheathen

May 16, 2010, 9:06 PM

Sorry, I read all this and it made my head heart. I like sex with women, I occasionally like sex with men, I occasionally like sex with a pre-op shemale. I like sex. I guess that makes me sexual.

Long Duck Dong

May 16, 2010, 9:55 PM

rolls eyes....

ok.... from a professional definition.....and this is how they were defined from a counseling point of view

a bisexual is a person that is attracted to both genders, however, the level of attraction is isolated to certain aspects of a person of either gender, IE, bear males, cougar females etc etc etc and often characterized by attraction on set levels, IE not emotional or mental but sexual.... or emotional and sexual but not mentally

a pansexual lacks the isolating factor, they are comfortable with a person of a broader range of gender identity, appearance and covering the emotional, mental and sexual ranges, and their contact with others is often not based around what is between the persons legs, but the person themselves, regarding of gender status or sexual ID ( male, female, intersex, asexual, trans, eunuch...)

now a clear difference between a pansexual and a bisexual is the fuild sexuality.....pansexuals are generally not fuild, bisexuals are....

it breaks down like this

hetero...............pansexual............gay / lesbian
<<<<<<<<<<<<<bisexual>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
hetero>>>>>>> sexual fetish<<<<<<gay /lesbian

the pansexual is not a subset of bisexual..... cos bisexuality is 90% sexual fetish, not actual attraction and desire to a person, but a desire to suck cock or lick a vagina..... and yes I know people hate hearing that.... but its bisexuals themselves that have proven it to be true

what makes bisexuality a subset of pan sexuality, is the more defining range of the bisexual.... they are more likely to find a partnership with a partner of the opposite sex, and only a brief encounter with the same sex.
they are less likely to seek out a on going contact on a emotional and mental level with people of the same gender.... and they are more likely to choose suitable sex partners based around looks and gender....

a pansexual is * blind * to many of the differences in people that a bisexual will see..... and a pansexual is far less likely to seek just sexual contact with a same sex partner.....

a simple way of looking at it is this
a bisexual will say " god I wanna suck their cock, eat their pussy but I am not interested in diversity or commitment"
a pansexual will say " I am attracted to everybody, I love being with them and want to be with them more "

now back earlier I referred to 90% of bisexuality being about a sexual fetish
the other 10% are the ones that are between bi and pan sexuality.....
they are the ones that people think about when they refer to bisexuality.... cos its how we want bisexuality to be seen....... but its not how society sees bisexuality, they see us for what we really are

just4mefc

May 16, 2010, 10:10 PM

Just

Well, I guess that I'm a quack and a transexual hating guy eh?

You are not a quack but your reference is pure quackery. I never said you hate tg ppl I said you have no interest having sex with tg ppl. SO JEEZus to you. I will say again, I am not against you in anyway here. You are free to like who you like. I am no one too judge you. Please don't take my stand with the argument personally. If I have personally insulted you then I sincerely apologize! I meant my questions sincerely and not as an attack. I really do want to know why anyone cares for more labels? what is the point of it?

I think we should all just have a nice giant orgy and forget the whole fight. Love not war

:three:

void()

May 16, 2010, 11:01 PM

Void sits watching all the din, smiles. "I can have sex with anyone and it's good sex. Great sex is when you love the other person, too. And I could probably love anyone. I might not quite see much use of cross dressing for me but others might like it. Please don't misinterpret this as me saying, 'come on all you cross dressers, flock to and hit on me'. I'm not really interested in cross dressers, just not my taste. Maybe if I gradually got to know you ... but even then, not really interested."

Got a guy, and gal. I'm happy. :) I wouldn't run away screaming from a transformer. In fact I might actually enjoy their company to the fullest. I don't care bout the words you wanna pin on me. I enjoy the love, the sex, and in the sex I prefer keeping it real and simple ... love pleasing and being pleased. Your words are just hollow and useless bits of ammunition used by folks that usually are haters, takers. Those folks rule, or try to, by the divide and conquer strategy. Sorry, get over it, our house won't fall. Now be off with you to tempt running amuck in mine fields elsewhere. Thanks, have a nice day. :)

just4mefc

May 16, 2010, 11:59 PM

grizzle45

May 17, 2010, 10:48 AM

Well, I think that everyone does, and should, pick their own way of defining themselves. I don't think anyone can, or should, tell a person what the word they have chosen means and they must adhere to that. There are many reasons to use labels and ALL of them are personal. I might struggle to fit a person's behavior into a label that makes sense to me, but I make a point to never tell someone, or even refer to someone in third person, with a label they didn't choose for themselves. Saying that someone IS a bisexual based on what I know about them just feels the same to me as ALL THE TIMES people have told me I'm NOT a bisexual.
The difference between pansexual and bisexual is based on what that word means to the person who is using it. A person can identify as gay or straight and have sex with whoever they want.
Now, I think, as I said, there are political and cultural reasons to use labels, which is why I am deliberate in what words I use. My purpose, then, is what effect I think that word will have on the other person, not how accurately my behavior fits a standard definition of that word.

diB4u

May 17, 2010, 1:26 PM

Last year i defined myself as pansexual, but right about now im just defying myself as being me. If a person likes me then yay thats ok i can deal with that, if i liked them back then we can both deal with it.

csreef

May 17, 2010, 1:58 PM

Sorry, I read all this and it made my head heart. I like sex with women, I occasionally like sex with men, I occasionally like sex with a pre-op shemale. I like sex. I guess that makes me sexual.

I've always considered myself a sexual being...Often that isn't easy to explain to someone. For me, it is just easier to say that I'm bisexual:three:

Annika L

May 17, 2010, 5:21 PM

You are not a quack but your reference is pure quackery. I never said you hate tg ppl I said you have no interest having sex with tg ppl. SO JEEZus to you. I will say again, I am not against you in anyway here. You are free to like who you like. I am no one too judge you. Please don't take my stand with the argument personally. If I have personally insulted you then I sincerely apologize! I meant my questions sincerely and not as an attack. I really do want to know why anyone cares for more labels? what is the point of it?

I think we should all just have a nice giant orgy and forget the whole fight. Love not war

:three:

I'm with you, generally speaking.

I do not care for people defining their actions by the labels that they or others have applied to themselves. I much prefer for people to act in accordance with what feels right to them...at any given time...preferably within the confines of the law (but not necessarily, if it hurts no one). And that is how I try to behave myself.

But to address your sincere question, there is one legitimate use of labels that I see: they *can* aid conversation.

Every noun is in fact a label. We talk about dogs, but we also talk about shepherds, collies, pointers, retrievers, etc., and for the most part, we don't fight about what those terms mean...but the dogs hate being labeled that way...they feel it puts unreasonable expectations on them. You ever wondered what that resentful stare was about? Surprisingly, it had nothing to do with the burger you ate in front of him...it's because you called him a golden retriever in front of the neighbors, and now he feels like you're trying to label him into some damned box where he has to enjoy stepping and fetching for you any time any where...it's just pressure, man.

But cows are pissed off that we even use the label "dog", because they feel our usage of it excludes them...and they (of course) consider themselves the most highly evolved form of dog. So we're not the only species to decry the use of labels.

Until fairly recently in human development (I *believe* I read it was 1800's or even 1900's), we did not have a word for homosexuals (let alone heterosexuals), and certainly no special language for bisexuals. I guess we were a combination of not worthy of talking about, and not all that much on people's radar screens. But eventually, people got interested in us...or we got interested in ourselves...or something. Basically, people got interested in talking about sex and sexuality. At that point, people noted that some are interested just in the opposite sex, where some are interested just in the same sex, and still others are interested in the cows and dogs, and...you get the picture.

When people detect a meaningful difference among individuals or things, and want to talk about those differences, it is useful to give names (labels, if you will) to the differences. Thus arose words like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and eventually pansexual, omnisexual, and maybe some day macrosexual, terrasexual, and galatisexual.

But there is a twofold difficulty:

(1) Some people don't like to think, and so they try to figure out what label applies to them, and then act in accordance with that label. *shakes head sadly*

(2) Some words are either so new or so unused in ordinary public discourse that there is a fair amount of confusion over what they mean...and/or worse, more than one "official definition" for them.

That is why, rather than debate tenni's definitions, I just accepted them and drew conclusions based on them: I figured if those definitions made sense to him, they were clear and so could be used in conversation (and frankly, they seemed in accordance with the APA definitions I'd always heard). Seems he didn't like some of the conclusions that could be drawn from them. Oh well...definitions don't always behave as we'd like. But if you are going to have discourse that uses a set of labels, it is *very* important that all people involved use the words to mean the same thing...otherwise you can't know what a person means when they write, and the words lose all meaning.

So I disagree with some here that labels are meaningless: they have whatever meaning we give them. And I disagree with some here that labels are useless: they are useful tools for distinguishing different ideas and properties in discourse. I am not a person who hates labels...I just give them the respect they deserve and not an ounce more. We have so many arguments in here that run "don't label me X! I don't see myself as X!", when the person's own words clearly fit all standard definitions of X...well, honey, I hate to tell you, but by the definition of X, that's what you are...I'm not labeling you...your actions label you.

So the next time you wonder about the usefulness of labels, try to utter one meaningful sentence without using one.

And by the way, thanks for your reply to LDD as well.

clovermoon

May 17, 2010, 7:09 PM

Why are you worried about what label to wear? Be kind to people, make the world a little better, and just go get laid.

MarieDelta

May 17, 2010, 7:55 PM

Long Duck Dong

May 17, 2010, 9:26 PM

Well Long not sure what professional group you are referring to but the american psychological association has the following official definition:

"Sexual orientation exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality. Bisexual persons can experience sexual, emotional, and affectional attraction to both their own sex and the opposite sex"

additionally:

The APA states that there are three possible sexual orientations:

1. Heterosexuals are attracted to persons of the opposite sex only.
2. Homosexuals are attracted to persons of the same sex only.
3. Bisexuals are attracted to both men and women, although not necessarily to the same degree.

The bolded part of your statement is not recognized by the APA as part of the orientation scale.

I use the international standard of guidelines for counsellors and therapists..... the APA applies to the us, there is a world outside of the us
and I live in a country where we recognize sexuality diversity and same sex marriage.....

the fact that the APA doesn't recognize some aspects of sexuality, is on the same level as some states in the us, not recognizing that gays and lesbian and trans are people too....

Long Duck Dong

May 17, 2010, 9:40 PM

Not only that, but some labels are so basic as to defy definition.

Ever try to define "Man" and "woman"?

You say you are attracted to "men" but, what does that mean, really?
A person with a penis? What if someone with xy chromosomes loses his penis in an accident , does tht make him less desirable or more so?
What if their penis is so small that it is pratically non-existant? What about someone who appears male, but has xxy chrosomes?

What does woman mean? Does that mean someone who is capabal of bearing children? What about xx persons who arent capable of bearing children? What about persons who from all outward appearance show that they are female, but who have xy chromosomes?

When you start mucking about with gender labels it becomes quite clear that (some) labels are quite meaningless.

nice post marie and I agree...... the term * attraction to males or females * misses the mark a lot.... as it implies that we are attracted to males and females.... not aspects of the male and female genders....

some people like *bears * some don't etc..... so is the person attracted to bear males only, or all males.... yadda yadda....

TwylaTwobits

May 17, 2010, 9:48 PM

Tenni,

I have been reading this thread with interest and I wouldn't post now except for something that is bothering me. You asked an honest question and with the exception of a few people answering you are now getting bashed for labeling. That doesn't seem quite fair to me. If no one questioned anything this world would be a very sad and boring place.

My two cents :)

TT

Bi_Druid

May 18, 2010, 1:25 PM

I identify as bisexual myself.

Personally, on a sexual level, I like guys who are guys and girls who are girls. I've thus far not noticed any sexual feelings towards trans or inter-sexed or androgynous or such. I've friends who fall in these grey area categories, but have never felt sexually drawn to them. So, by my understanding of the two terms (bi- and pansexuality) I would still identify as bisexual.

just4mefc

May 18, 2010, 7:26 PM

I use the international standard of guidelines for counsellors and therapists..... the APA applies to the us, there is a world outside of the us
and I live in a country where we recognize sexuality diversity and same sex marriage.....

the fact that the APA doesn't recognize some aspects of sexuality, is on the same level as some states in the us, not recognizing that gays and lesbian and trans are people too....

Well first off (smart ass) I am aware there are places in the world other then the USA and to your point I present this from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO)...

Bisexual: is an individual who is sexually and emotionally attracted to men and women. Bisexual people need not have had a sexual experience at all to identify as bisexual.

Now that is out of the way. Can you please submit an actual reference from said "International standards etc" As there are many such international groups and a google search was unable to find such a statement by any international doctorate based group. Nowhere can I find any group that states that bisexual is defined as "a bisexual is a person that is attracted to both genders, however, the level of attraction is isolated to certain aspects of a person of either gender, IE, bear males, cougar females etc etc etc and often characterized by attraction on set levels, IE not emotional or mental but sexual.... or emotional and sexual but not mentally" so please provide a link this group, their standards etc..

Now here in the USA there are many groups that claim to be "counselors and therapist" however these terms have very little actual meaning. In fact the only terms that have validity in all 50 states are Psychologist and Psychiatrist. Both require a doctorate level education. While counselor and therapist does not have such requirement. Another example, here in California the term "nutritionist" has no official meaning but "Dietitian" requires graduate level education in nutrition and state certification. In fact the state says a "nutritionist" is anyone who eats! Therefore, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist. Same for the terms "counselor and therapist" So I am not trying to be a punk here I am simply asking for an actual reference. I want to know who is the group that wrote said "international standard". Does membership in said group require a PHD?

For now lets say your ref is accurate to a internationally known body. Then it proves my point even more. The more we delineate the more we attempt to place people in groups. Then we can judge them as in-groups or out-groups (ie good and bad) The APA lists sexuality as it does because of the extreme diversity of human sexuality and does not want their psychologists making too many predisposed judgements when treating clients. In terms of diversity, the APA statement (orientation is a scale from straight to gay) allows for far more shades of grey.

Someone coming into a "therapist" who says I am Bisexual in your system would be labeled as lacking of connection and have a sexual perversion. but you label someone as PAN and you think they must be ok. BUT what if the person just didn't know YOUR label and mis-identified themselves. Then what?

Looking forward to some actual references to your grand statements

just4mefc

May 18, 2010, 8:01 PM

I'm with you, generally speaking.

...But to address your sincere question, there is one legitimate use of labels that I see: they *can* aid conversation.

Point well taken and I pretty much said as much in my very first post. It does help to have labels as a potential jumping off point in conversation. But it is the assigned judgement that bothers me. The danger is we don't stop to check what the labels mean to the other person. Example, you say you like cats and rather then check with you I assume you don't like dogs and from that point forward my interaction with you is tainted by my assumption. In fact I like dogs so you must not be like me. I bet I am better then you... etc etc.

I call myself (for the sake of others bisexual but really I am trisexual... I will try anything once) now does that mean I will have sex with anyone? hell no. Does it mean I am confused? nope. Does it mean I cheat on my partner? no again. Does it mean sex always has connection and meaning or is always just animalistic. also no. So what is the point? I think we ask all this to find common ground. For some sort of social support. Kind of like, I tell you I like to ride mountain bikes and you say cool me too? want to ride sometime? or you walk away and say he is one of "those" cyclist and think you know how THEY are. I think ppl on the middle of the kinsy scale have it the worst in terms of labels and judgements. Gay judgement "just lying to themselves not real gay like us" or str8 saying "just come out already" so to have yet another label within "Our group" is crazy to me. Chris Rock has a great joke "what do black ppl think of Jews" to which he replys "I am scared of white ppl I don't have time to break them into groups"
:three:

Annika L

May 18, 2010, 8:20 PM

Point well taken and I pretty much said as much in my very first post. It does help to have labels as a potential jumping off point in conversation. But it is the assigned judgement that bothers me. The danger is we don't stop to check what the labels mean to the other person. Example, you say you like cats and rather then check with you I assume you don't like dogs and from that point forward my interaction with you is tainted by my assumption. In fact I like dogs so you must not be like me. I bet I am better then you... etc etc.

I call myself (for the sake of others bisexual but really I am trisexual... I will try anything once) now does that mean I will have sex with anyone? hell no. Does it mean I am confused? nope. Does it mean I cheat on my partner? no again. Does it mean sex always has connection and meaning or is always just animalistic. also no. So what is the point? I think we ask all this to find common ground. For some sort of social support. Kind of like, I tell you I like to ride mountain bikes and you say cool me too? want to ride sometime? or you walk away and say he is one of "those" cyclist and think you know how THEY are. I think ppl on the middle of the kinsy scale have it the worst in terms of labels and judgements. Gay judgement "just lying to themselves not real gay like us" or str8 saying "just come out already" so to have yet another label within "Our group" is crazy to me. Chris Rock has a great joke "what do black ppl think of Jews" to which he replys "I am scared of white ppl I don't have time to break them into groups"
:three:

I think I love you.

Yes, exactly! Anyone who makes assumptions and assigns judgments about another person based simply on language, rather than actual behavior, is treading on very thin ice.

But to defend the point of the thread just the tiniest bit, I don't think tenni is advocating widespread use of even more labels...he is merely recognizing a distinction that actually exists in people, invoking the names that apply to both sides of that distinction, and (I think) trying to understand it better. One way to understand the difference is to take a bunch of people he knows (or kinda knows), and figure out which side of the distinction they fall on. At the very least, he then knows some people on both side with whom he can follow up privately later.

Or I dunno...maybe he's just nosey. :tong:

Long Duck Dong

May 18, 2010, 9:47 PM

Well first off (smart ass) I am aware there are places in the world other then the USA and to your point I present this from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO)...

Bisexual: is an individual who is sexually and emotionally attracted to men and women. Bisexual people need not have had a sexual experience at all to identify as bisexual.

Now that is out of the way. Can you please submit an actual reference from said "International standards etc" As there are many such international groups and a google search was unable to find such a statement by any international doctorate based group. Nowhere can I find any group that states that bisexual is defined as "a bisexual is a person that is attracted to both genders, however, the level of attraction is isolated to certain aspects of a person of either gender, IE, bear males, cougar females etc etc etc and often characterized by attraction on set levels, IE not emotional or mental but sexual.... or emotional and sexual but not mentally" so please provide a link this group, their standards etc..

Now here in the USA there are many groups that claim to be "counselors and therapist" however these terms have very little actual meaning. In fact the only terms that have validity in all 50 states are Psychologist and Psychiatrist. Both require a doctorate level education. While counselor and therapist does not have such requirement. Another example, here in California the term "nutritionist" has no official meaning but "Dietitian" requires graduate level education in nutrition and state certification. In fact the state says a "nutritionist" is anyone who eats! Therefore, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist. Same for the terms "counselor and therapist" So I am not trying to be a punk here I am simply asking for an actual reference. I want to know who is the group that wrote said "international standard". Does membership in said group require a PHD?

For now lets say your ref is accurate to a internationally known body. Then it proves my point even more. The more we delineate the more we attempt to place people in groups. Then we can judge them as in-groups or out-groups (ie good and bad) The APA lists sexuality as it does because of the extreme diversity of human sexuality and does not want their psychologists making too many predisposed judgements when treating clients. In terms of diversity, the APA statement (orientation is a scale from straight to gay) allows for far more shades of grey.

Someone coming into a "therapist" who says I am Bisexual in your system would be labeled as lacking of connection and have a sexual perversion. but you label someone as PAN and you think they must be ok. BUT what if the person just didn't know YOUR label and mis-identified themselves. Then what?

Looking forward to some actual references to your grand statements

ok, see the country beside my name, it says NZ, not US..... now that may help you with understanding that I am not in the us, so the us standard, doesn't apply to me......

now the terms bi and pansexual are used to define the difference between a person that would go with a male and female only, and a person that would include trans and intersex as possible partners.......

its that simple....

as for the international standard ..... if you didn't find it, I am not surprised...... cos its a book not a website, and its used by a number of countries, all of whom also allow and endorse same sex marriage..... thats probably the reason why you can not find it in the us

now what we would do is not label anybody..... remember its not like the us here, we actually talk to people, not assign them a number
we would talk to them about the bi / pansexual differences and LET THEM decide what one they feel, better suits them......

under the us defination, a person that is not sexually active, is the same as a person that is sexually active and married, and has casual partners.... and those two are the same as a person in a poly marriage, and those all are the same as a person that has never married, been celibate for a few years, yet doesn't see the world in terms of male and female, but sees the complete diversity of the human gender spectrum.....

I have noticed in the site, that people have been refering to themselves as bi curious cos they have not had sex at all with the same sex.... and under your apa term, they are bisexual.... and I have watched bisexuals tell them that they are not allowed to refer to themselves as bisexual as they have no proof they are

now I have offered people a understanding of the term bi and pan sexual.... its up to them how they define themselves...not me......
I call myself a bisexual even tho I id as a pansexual, cos of people like you that think I may be wrong for using the term that best fits my lifestyle as I live it...... but its my life, I live it, hence I will use whatever term I want to, and if others have a issue with that.... fine, thats their issue, not mine......

Long Duck Dong

May 18, 2010, 10:08 PM

Someone coming into a "therapist" who says I am Bisexual in your system would be labeled as lacking of connection and have a sexual perversion. but you label someone as PAN and you think they must be ok. BUT what if the person just didn't know YOUR label and mis-identified themselves. Then what?

now I will answer this separately,

if I was still working in a professional capacity and you came to me with concerns about your sexuality, I would sit and let you talk about yourself, I would ask questions to clarify what I do not understand....but mostly I would let you talk..... I would not label you..... I would show you a chart that breaks down bisexuality in to groups like bi curious, and bi sexual and pan sexual......and then let you talk about your viewpoint on each of the definitions.... and how you feel they apply to you.......and if they apply to you

I would like to see where you would get labelled as a person with a sexual perversion... as there is not... unless you are a sexual deviant ( necro, pedo )

the last I knew, a male sucking a persons cock or fucking another male in the ass was not a perversion..... unless you live in the us, where in some states, its still illegal to commit sodomy....

so as you can see, there is not a issue with people, only people that create issues with their lack of understanding on things...... thats why I do not generally refer to myself as pansexual..... its other peoples refusal to accept my own label for me, that is the issue, but I am not strictly bisexual...
in order to refer to myself as bisexual, then intersex / eunuchs need to stop refering to themselves as the third gender.... as bisexuals are attracted to male and female.... pansexuals are attracted to all the genders...

crazy_cat_lady

May 19, 2010, 12:55 AM

Not only that, but some labels are so basic as to defy definition.

Ever try to define "Man" and "woman"?

You say you are attracted to "men" but, what does that mean, really?
A person with a penis? What if someone with xy chromosomes loses his penis in an accident , does tht make him less desirable or more so?
What if their penis is so small that it is pratically non-existant? What about someone who appears male, but has xxy chrosomes?

What does woman mean? Does that mean someone who is capabal of bearing children? What about xx persons who arent capable of bearing children? What about persons who from all outward appearance show that they are female, but who have xy chromosomes?

When you start mucking about with gender labels it becomes quite clear that (some) labels are quite meaningless.That reminds me of a Julia Roberts movie, where she plays a lawyer who is trying to make a case about a factory tht poisoned the water suply and gave everybody cancer.

Anyway there is a funny scene where a cancer surviver asks her crying "if a woman has bo breast or uterus can se still be called a woman?"

And Julia's character says "yes and a damn lucky one who doesn't have to deal with underwire bras or maxi pads/tampons."

Sorry I just had to bring that up :bigrin:

Long Duck Dong

May 19, 2010, 5:03 AM

I was gonna point this out earlier, but I was a lil busy.....

here are official definitions of bisexuals by two different groups

The APA states that there are three possible sexual orientations:

1. Heterosexuals are attracted to persons of the opposite sex only.
2. Homosexuals are attracted to persons of the same sex only.
3. Bisexuals are attracted to both men and women, although not necessarily to the same degree.

United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO)...

Bisexual: is an individual who is sexually and emotionally attracted to men and women. Bisexual people need not have had a sexual experience at all to identify as bisexual.

one definition sets bisexuality as a emotional and sexual attraction, that would make most of the male bisexuals in the same, NOT bisexual at all, as they have no emotional connection to the same gender, just the desire to suck cocks....

the other definition would label them as bisexual and others that are not bisexual, they just find the male and female forms to be enjoyable to be around

the same can said with the trans umbrella, a person that wears female underpants cos they are comfortable, can be covered under the trans umbrella, yet they are neither crossdressing inclined, trans, female impersonating etc etc etc....

so depending on what guidelines a person is using to id you, you may or may not actually exist, or you may exist as something you are not......

so people, you are who you say you are and what you ID as.... its your life.... the ones that disagree, are the ones that do not know you like you know yourself

just4mefc

May 19, 2010, 5:26 PM

ok, see the country beside my name, it says NZ, not US..... now that may help you with understanding that I am not in the us, so the us standard, doesn't apply to me......

as for the international standard ..... if you didn't find it, I am not surprised...... cos its a book not a website, and its used by a number of countries, all of whom also allow and endorse same sex marriage..... thats probably the reason why you can not find it in the us

now what we would do is not label anybody..... remember its not like the us here, we actually talk to people, not assign them a number
we would talk to them about the bi / pansexual differences and LET THEM decide what one they feel, better suits them......

I have noticed in the site, that people have been refering to themselves as bi curious cos they have not had sex at all with the same sex.... and under your apa term, they are bisexual.... and I have watched bisexuals tell them that they are not allowed to refer to themselves as bisexual as they have no proof they are

now I have offered people a understanding of the term bi and pan sexual.... its up to them how they define themselves...not me......
I call myself a bisexual even tho I id as a pansexual, cos of people like you that think I may be wrong for using the term that best fits my lifestyle as I live it...... but its my life, I live it, hence I will use whatever term I want to, and if others have a issue with that.... fine, thats their issue, not mine......

Ok Long, seriously are you smoking something down there? You have such a strong bias against what you think we do here in the USA. Have you been here? and if so have yo actually spoken to a psychologist here? your statement show extreme ignorance regarding life in USA.

I listed a international standard that you yourself (in a later post) then still and list as your own. WTF. And even in our backwoods un-enlightened borders we have access to books too. Name the book already where it defines as you claim "a bisexual is a person that is attracted to both genders, however, the level of attraction is isolated to certain aspects of a person of either gender, IE, bear males, cougar females etc etc etc and often characterized by attraction on set levels, IE not emotional or mental but sexual.... or emotional and sexual but not mentally" is stated.

Your double speak would seem to say that this is YOUR personal interpretation. BTW that is fine bi me. I don't care what you call yourself. I am only responding to your insistence that you have "THE" international definition of "bisexual"

So if you tell me you are "jack-in-box sexual" and I ask what is that and you tell me I will simply say "cool bi me" labael yourself what ever you like. cool no problem. BUT you insisted "you might not like it but 90% blah blah blah" as being fact. But you provide no actual proof. so stop boring me with the "we accept gay marriage unlike the USA" crap.

If you want to talk about your opinion then I have nothing to say to that. You can have your opinion and I will have mine. But I am clear with others that it is only that, an opinion. When I state something as fact I will at least provide the ref and not hide behind well it is a book and they don'y have those in NZ. What a load of crap here. So list the book, the group, the publishing number (unless down there they only use crayons and don't actually publish) oh just say it is your opinion I will shut the hell up no problem.

And no psychologist here would give the client a list and say here pick one. Tell me what is the right label for you. That would be moronic.

So again call yourself what you want it is your life I have no judgement on it what soever. Just be clear what is your life and opinion and what is "clinical fact" and we can move on to more interesting topics

just4mefc

May 19, 2010, 6:09 PM

I think I love you.

Yes, exactly! Anyone who makes assumptions and assigns judgments about another person based simply on language, rather than actual behavior, is treading on very thin ice.

But to defend the point of the thread just the tiniest bit, I don't think tenni is advocating widespread use of even more labels...he is merely recognizing a distinction that actually exists in people, invoking the names that apply to both sides of that distinction, and (I think) trying to understand it better. One way to understand the difference is to take a bunch of people he knows (or kinda knows), and figure out which side of the distinction they fall on. At the very least, he then knows some people on both side with whom he can follow up privately later.

Or I dunno...maybe he's just nosey. :tong:

Ah shucks :rolleyes:

I see I was a bit harsh with Tenni hence my sincere apology. To me if someone acknowledges themselves as some how outside the norm, well that is a big enough statement for me. Then I want to be closer and know what it means to them. If an open minded person says they are "st8" and can sustain the discomfort of a conversation, that is awesome too.

Or perhaps I too am just nosey :tong:

Long Duck Dong

May 19, 2010, 9:24 PM

Ok Long, seriously are you smoking something down there? You have such a strong bias against what you think we do here in the USA. Have you been here? and if so have yo actually spoken to a psychologist here? your statement show extreme ignorance regarding life in USA.

I listed a international standard that you yourself (in a later post) then still and list as your own. WTF. And even in our backwoods un-enlightened borders we have access to books too. Name the book already where it defines as you claim "a bisexual is a person that is attracted to both genders, however, the level of attraction is isolated to certain aspects of a person of either gender, IE, bear males, cougar females etc etc etc and often characterized by attraction on set levels, IE not emotional or mental but sexual.... or emotional and sexual but not mentally" is stated.

Your double speak would seem to say that this is YOUR personal interpretation. BTW that is fine bi me. I don't care what you call yourself. I am only responding to your insistence that you have "THE" international definition of "bisexual"

So if you tell me you are "jack-in-box sexual" and I ask what is that and you tell me I will simply say "cool bi me" labael yourself what ever you like. cool no problem. BUT you insisted "you might not like it but 90% blah blah blah" as being fact. But you provide no actual proof. so stop boring me with the "we accept gay marriage unlike the USA" crap.

If you want to talk about your opinion then I have nothing to say to that. You can have your opinion and I will have mine. But I am clear with others that it is only that, an opinion. When I state something as fact I will at least provide the ref and not hide behind well it is a book and they don'y have those in NZ. What a load of crap here. So list the book, the group, the publishing number (unless down there they only use crayons and don't actually publish) oh just say it is your opinion I will shut the hell up no problem.

And no psychologist here would give the client a list and say here pick one. Tell me what is the right label for you. That would be moronic.

So again call yourself what you want it is your life I have no judgement on it what soever. Just be clear what is your life and opinion and what is "clinical fact" and we can move on to more interesting topics

I am not biased at all, I was questioning how two different definitions by two different groups can define the same thing in two totally different ways,
the unesco and apa definations

now my opinion is I am pansexual... thats it..... my opinion is not who else is what..... cos I do not care.....

as for my bias..... what bias.... I have no issues with what you do in the usa.... but do not apply us rulings to me, please, I am not in the us, I do not belong to or am I part of the apa..... and nor do I need to see any person in the us

right, let me clear something up for you

I have asked people to define themselves as they see themselves, I do not tell them what they are, they tell me.....
but in the site I have watched a number of people come into the site and ask for help to define themselves and their sexuality as the terms they have found as too confusing.......
and then I have watched bisexuals in the site, tell people they are not bisexual cos they do not fit * the criteria * for being bisexual...... go after heteros for not defining themselves as bi.... telling people they are bi and not admitting / accepting it.... having no right to call themselves bisexual as they have no proof they are bisexual etc etc
and most of them doing that are us citizens.......

that is why I questioned the two definitions you posted on bisexuals, the apa and the unesco.... they are both different.....

there are actually 7 different levels of bisexuality.... that can be used to define the stage of bisexuality..... ranging from the bi latent to the bi curious, to the bi exploring right thru to the bi secure.....

they do not break things down in terms of attraction on emotional / mental / sexual levels..... but if you research the terms of sexual fetish, you will find that a bisexual with a non mental / non emtional desire to suck cocks only, is also a sexual fetish.... and under the unesco defination of bisexual, is not bisexual, but a person with a sexual fetish.....

now I do not make the definitions and nor do I care about them

what I defined was the difference between pan and bi sexual.....
as a pan sexual, I am as content with a enunch / asexual / trans / intersex as I am with a male and female..... most bisexuals however do not extend that far, they like their clear male and female gender types, not anything that blurs the lines......

now what I have, is a book.... something you read, not a website, and I brought and paid for it when I was working in the counselling and therapy fields, as part of the required tools, I have no idea if it is able to be purchased from any online bookstore as I had to provide a registered ID number with my order, as some books are restricted reading

but I will say one thing.... your attitude, and telling me that I do not know what I am talking about..... thats actually a common thing in the forum now.... and 99% of the time, its us citizens telling people from other countries that they have no idea what they are talking about, cos people are not from the us or using the us resources or doing things to the us standards....
so I ask you..... if my opinion is just a opinion.... and not something you care about.... then why are you stating that I should speak to the pysch there in the us..... when as I have stated, I do not live in the us, or follow the us way of life

Annika L

May 19, 2010, 11:38 PM

I am not biased at all....

...if my opinion is just a opinion.... and not something you care about.... then why are you stating that I should speak to the pysch there in the us..... when as I have stated, I do not live in the us, or follow the us way of life

Um...for the same reason it would be good for us in the US to spend some time abroad...'cause you spend an awful lot of time bitching about us, while evidencing that you don't actually know a lot about us?

And I'm not sure that any person's statement that they are not biased can ever hold any weight. If I am biased, then I may or may not be aware of it. Hence, if I *feel* unbiased, I may or may not be. My bias is ascertained by others through my actions. If someone accuses me of bias based on my actions, it is more meaningful for me to look within and question how I might actually be biased, than it is to simply deny being biased at all. Same for you.

Long Duck Dong

May 20, 2010, 12:03 AM

now I went and dug out the book from its storage place... since you want a book with a set wording in it....... and I paraphased the wording into a simple to read format.....

now this is where I paraphased it
"a bisexual is a person that is attracted to both genders, however, the level of attraction is isolated to certain aspects of a person of either gender, IE, bear males, cougar females etc etc etc and often characterized by attraction on set levels, IE not emotional or mental but sexual.... or emotional and sexual but not mentally"

what is below is part of what I paraphrased.... and you may understand why I paraphrased it into simple terms..... as I was not in the mood to type out all 17 pages and sections...

2.3
Bisexual and Bisexuality: Ambiguous terms relating to a extensive undefined range of sexual attraction, intimate partnering, understanding of ones behievour using Kinsey scale ( Refer Sec 1.4-1.6 gender to sexuality ).

Bisexuality is not to be confused with Gender Identity Dysphoria defining sexuality ( Refer Sec 3.2-3.7 Sexuality defined by Gender Identity ) GID can not define sexuality as gender is in flux and non specific.

A bisexual individual is self identifying, using personal criteria leading to oft mistaken understanding of self sexuality. Understanding of bisexuality is differcult, due to issues with lack of correct bordered definition.
In order to define as bisexual and sexuality as bisexual, a person should be able to clearly indicate the level of attraction to gender and gender appearance beyond desire and perceived intent.

A person that has perceived intent of sexual contact, is in a stage of sexuality experimentalism, this is not confined to prepubescent to adulthood age range and can include other sexual contact and experimentation ( human and other: Ref Sec 8.5-8.9 Fluid Sexual stages and Definitions )
This stage can remain consistent for a long period and be defined within the range of bisexuality

etc etc etc etc etc

Long Duck Dong

May 20, 2010, 12:37 AM

Um...for the same reason it would be good for us in the US to spend some time abroad...'cause you spend an awful lot of time bitching about us, while evidencing that you don't actually know a lot about us?

And I'm not sure that any person's statement that they are not biased can ever hold any weight. If I am biased, then I may or may not be aware of it. Hence, if I *feel* unbiased, I may or may not be. My bias is ascertained by others through my actions. If someone accuses me of bias based on my actions, it is more meaningful for me to look within and question how I might actually be biased, than it is to simply deny being biased at all. Same for you.

lol......yes I may appear as biased, I will agree there.... but like I have said, I am getting a lil sick of being told that unless its to the us standards, or by the ( we do it in this way ) us book, that its not right....

unless I am mistaken, using a us term to define bisexuals as people that are emotionally and sexually attracted to both genders, is omitting any person that ids as the third gender, gender undefined, genderqueer and any person that is attracted to another person only on a sexual basis with no emotions....... is simply and basically negating a lot of bisexuals as not bisexuals at all

tenni asked for a understanding of bisexuals vs pansexuals, I gave it.... but apparently its wrong as its not a ruling by us terms, tenni is wrong for asking for some enlightenment and I am wrong for giving it by non us terminology....

is it any wonder that we are seeing so many people no longer posting..... cos its appearing like only us terminology and comments by us people are acceptable in the forum now

just4mefc

May 20, 2010, 1:58 AM

Long, you are a real crack up my friend. Do you actually read full sentences or do you fill in the ends yourself. So great you found said book. Now who is the organization that backs said book? who are the authors of said book? what is the title of the book? I did not claim you don't know anything I said provide some proof, some actual backing of your statements. To be clear this is your paraphrase. Glad after all this mombo jumbo we got to the truth. you read 17 plus pages and came up with the conclusion bisexuality is a fetish it is in fact your extrapolation, your opinion.
2.3 Bisexual and Bisexuality: Ambiguous terms relating to a extensive undefined range of sexual attraction, intimate partnering, understanding of ones behievour using Kinsey scale ( Refer Sec 1.4-1.6 gender to sexuality )

Kinsey scale hmmm a USA construct by the way! and nowhere in what you posted is the term fetish listed. FOCUS man FOCUS. You don't make the terms but YOU interpret them. I assume you are in fact attempting to help in what you say. But just as you state you do not live in USA well I, and most members here, do not live in NZ either. So don't apply some down under construct to the rest of the world. So you worked in the field do you have a PHD in some form of counseling? You say I am using USA only data BUT we do more research then the rest of the world combined. I am perfectly willing to be wrong I just want the proof.

Now lets be serious for a moment. I agree many people here are attacked for not being the right label. This is exactly why I am holding you to a standard of proof. You make statements without clarification and this can cause pain and further confusion. I assume you are intending to be helpful in what you write? It is important for us to have constructive conversation based on research when we try to help others. If not then we can say it is our opinion. There is danger in representing as given fact something that at best is up for debate. You come off as an intelligent well informed authority but this can be dangerous for someone who cannot stand up to your verb-age. So I am not trying to shoot you down and act as though I am "American" and I know and you don't. I never said I don't care about your opinion. In fact your opinion is fine with me. I want to hear your opinion just don't wrap it up as fact. I am not against you as a person, I don't know you well enough to like or dis-like you. I suspect you and I might see eye to eye more then we disagree. But you have got to back up with the attitude that you are somehow the holder of the real truth and we are some backwoods satan supporters trying to control you with some kind of vulcan mind meld.

Arrogantly you go on to correct the apa and unesco as though YOU hold the facts and these silly groups know nothing "there are actually 7 levels blah blah blah" again according to whom? You are NOT the end of all things. the world does not revolve around you. You live in a nation of 4.2 million ppl. Los Angeles alone has 9.8 million. Your entire potential data base of research is 1/2 of one city in the USA. That does not make your data for your region wrong but you certainly can not claim your data super cedes data from USA as it applies to the USA nor as it might apply to most industrial nations. From a scientific stand point it would be interesting to compare the data sets and how they impact the various populations. You like to pound your chest about "international blah blah" well for many culture's (eg India) of the world there is no need for the terms bi/pansexual at all. It is more of a norm that ppl will have many partners of different gender and no label is needed as no thought is really given to it at all. So when you state as fact "bisexual is a fetish" you risk hurting ppl who might see you as someone who speaks for the mental health community. So I ask you to be clear with your statements. Give ref when available or be clear that is your understanding or opinion.

Now can we stop this fight already? You know kiss and make up :love1:

To be clear I do want to hear your opinion. You seem like a smart person and I see you have something to offer and that you seem to care about your fellow human.

If not and you are more interested in the fight well that's cool too. I'm Irish I can fight all day and all night just for the fun of it. :tongue:

just4mefc

May 20, 2010, 2:20 AM

lol......yes I may appear as biased, I will agree there.... but like I have said, I am getting a lil sick of being told that unless its to the us standards, or by the ( we do it in this way ) us book, that its not right....

unless I am mistaken, using a us term to define bisexuals as people that are emotionally and sexually attracted to both genders, is omitting any person that ids as the third gender, gender undefined, genderqueer and any person that is attracted to another person only on a sexual basis with no emotions....... is simply and basically negating a lot of bisexuals as not bisexuals at all

tenni asked for a understanding of bisexuals vs pansexuals, I gave it.... but apparently its wrong as its not a ruling by us terms, tenni is wrong for asking for some enlightenment and I am wrong for giving it by non us terminology....

is it any wonder that we are seeing so many people no longer posting..... cos its appearing like only us terminology and comments by us people are acceptable in the forum now

Long
..go back and READ my replys. I did not say unless usa etc. you made that up in your head. I said based on what?

And yes you are wrong when you interpret anyone being left out by using the apa standard. By using the scale of srt8 to gay you can include all people. You are splitting hairs. Go ahead and talk about your "7 layers approach" we might like your opinion. tenni originally wanted to know who was like him and did not have interest in tg ppl sexually. He insisted on labeling others as bi or pan and that led us to here. I understand you are frustrated with many ppl having what you see as USA only bias and everything else is wrong and believe it or not I support you in this 100%! I want diversity. I want to hear other views. Just mellow out on attacking the USA thing. I have traveled a bit and I love other cultures. So please don't hold back on discussing all this. One thing you should know about most "americans" is we will support your right to be wrong.

just4mefc

May 20, 2010, 2:23 AM

Long Duck Dong

May 20, 2010, 3:23 AM

Long
..go back and READ my replys. I did not say unless usa etc. you made that up in your head. I said based on what?

And yes you are wrong when you interpret anyone being left out by using the apa standard. By using the scale of srt8 to gay you can include all people. You are splitting hairs. Go ahead and talk about your "7 layers approach" we might like your opinion. tenni originally wanted to know who was like him and did not have interest in tg ppl sexually. He insisted on labeling others as bi or pan and that led us to here. I understand you are frustrated with many ppl having what you see as USA only bias and everything else is wrong and believe it or not I support you in this 100%! I want diversity. I want to hear other views. Just mellow out on attacking the USA thing. I have traveled a bit and I love other cultures. So please don't hold back on discussing all this. One thing you should know about most "americans" is we will support your right to be wrong.

in simple terms.....

define bisexuality.... and I will show you the other criteria that a lot of bisexuality also is a part of ...

define bisexual attraction and I will show you the other gender identities that are ignored and left out....

define learning about being bisexual and I will show you how the 7 levels works, for every person.....

define bisexual relationships and I will show you how they are covered by other definitions and * labels * that are more clear in their definition

then I will show you a forum called bisexual.com where people of all sexualities, come to sit, laugh and share...... and argue / disagree on all things bisexual.....

thats my point...... even the bisexuals can not agree on what bisexuality is..... cos nobody actually knows...... we have a ambiguous label that can apply and be applied to anybody, but if we go to psychs, they have definitions and labels out their ass........ based around our behievour and thinking......

so who is right.... you, me, us or them ??? or nobody

just4mefc

May 20, 2010, 6:58 AM

.....thats my point...... even the bisexuals can not agree on what bisexuality is..... cos nobody actually knows...... we have a ambiguous label that can apply and be applied to anybody, but if we go to psychs, they have definitions and labels out their ass........ based around our behievour and thinking......

so who is right.... you, me, us or them ??? or nobody

Well we are close to agreement ;) I know lots of psychologist here and they run the gambit themselves str8 to gay and I don't see much labeling going on. They only support the identity as presented by the client. But I am of the opinion that everyone is bi (str8 and gay included), but labels, fear and societal pressure's cause us all to "choose" the extremes. Not necessarily in the conscious choose way mind you. But in a conditioned (nurture) kind of way. I don't think it is about right or wrong but about finding a starting point for the exploration of true self, whatever that might be. Ok well it is 4am and I need some sleep so I look forward to more debate and diversity in the future. Be well down there. yes I know you are not down anywhere and you don't actually hang by your feet and the globe is not actually set with the USA at its center, just a little poke at you ;)

Long Duck Dong

May 20, 2010, 7:51 AM

Well we are close to agreement ;) I know lots of psychologist here and they run the gambit themselves str8 to gay and I don't see much labeling going on. They only support the identity as presented by the client. But I am of the opinion that everyone is bi (str8 and gay included), but labels, fear and societal pressure's cause us all to "choose" the extremes. Not necessarily in the conscious choose way mind you. But in a conditioned (nurture) kind of way. I don't think it is about right or wrong but about finding a starting point for the exploration of true self, whatever that might be. Ok well it is 4am and I need some sleep so I look forward to more debate and diversity in the future. Be well down there. yes I know you are not down anywhere and you don't actually hang by your feet and the globe is not actually set with the USA at its center, just a little poke at you ;)

I have always had the opinion that everybody has the ability to be bi / pan sexual ( and been told I am wrong ) ...

sexuality is a form of expression using the human body and unless I am very much mistaken, bisexuals and pan sexuals use their bodies to express themselves in the same way gays / lesbians and heteros do.... thru sexual contact.... its just the type of sexual expression that is the defining factor

I used the premise ( and got told I was wrong ) that heterosexual is not the default sexuality.... its merely the default form of reproduction....
most people see it as

bisexual<<<<<<<< heterosexual >>>>> homosexual

I see it as

heterosexual<<<<<< bisexual >>>>>>>> homosexual

bisexuality as a balance between the two extremes.... in the same way that the kinsey scale has it....

but if you add in the other sexual identities, it confuses the fuck out of the mix.. and you have to factor in sexual contact and non sexual contact...

....................... asexual.........................
....................autosexual ( masturbater)............
hetero................bisexual............lesbian
.......................polyamorous................ ....
........................pansexual................. ....

now add in the alternative gender... such as intersex / trans / eunuch etc and thats why you have the simpler term of bisexual as a coverall

just4mefc

May 20, 2010, 10:11 AM

I have always had the opinion that everybody has the ability to be bi / pan sexual ( and been told I am wrong ) ...

sexuality is a form of expression using the human body and unless I am very much mistaken, bisexuals and pan sexuals use their bodies to express themselves in the same way gays / lesbians and heteros do.... thru sexual contact.... its just the type of sexual expression that is the defining factor

I used the premise ( and got told I was wrong ) that heterosexual is not the default sexuality.... its merely the default form of reproduction....
most people see it as

bisexual<<<<<<<< heterosexual >>>>> homosexual

I see it as

heterosexual<<<<<< bisexual >>>>>>>> homosexual

bisexuality as a balance between the two extremes.... in the same way that the kinsey scale has it....

but if you add in the other sexual identities, it confuses the fuck out of the mix.. and you have to factor in sexual contact and non sexual contact...

....................... asexual.........................
....................autosexual ( masturbater)............
hetero................bisexual............lesbian
.......................polyamorous................ ....
........................pansexual................. ....

now add in the alternative gender... such as intersex / trans / eunuch etc and thats why you have the simpler term of bisexual as a coverall

Well IMHO seeing how these are your opinions and points of view they can not be wrong. They might be wrong for me or for someone else but I can not call you wrong for you. In fact in this case I agree more then I disagree. So clearly I have walked into something here. All you said here MIGHT be debatable but to say it is wrong would be absurd and pointless. I have not been involved with too many of these arguments so I guess they are more common then I have noticed? I think it is very difficult for people too maintain these types of arguments because it brings up so much self judgement.

ironresolve

May 20, 2010, 1:12 PM

Why do we need more titles? It is my humble opinion that prejudice and hatred are kept alive by titles and catrgories. In anceint times folks were just sexual, with out a handle.Greeks Romans you name it.

" I could not handle the pressure of being Bi-sexual......can you imagine wanting to fuck every one you meet?" George Carlin

Annika L

May 20, 2010, 7:11 PM

tenni asked for a understanding of bisexuals vs pansexuals, I gave it.... but apparently its wrong as its not a ruling by us terms, tenni is wrong for asking for some enlightenment and I am wrong for giving it by non us terminology....

Oh, settle your feathers.

Tenni did not ask for an understanding of bisexuals vs. pansexuals; he asked to know which members are bisexual vs. which members are pansexual (read the OP). Tenni further requested that we use the definitions *he* gave in order to make those distinctions (read the OP).

He certainly didn't request that you roll your eyes at us and supply your interpretation of your favorite professional definition. So yeah...in that regard, you were wrong.

As just4me suggests, let's move on, shall we? (personally, I think it's this squabbling over stuff that hasn't even been said that drives people off the boards, as much as anything else)

As a side note, I find this interesting:

most people see it as

bisexual<<<<<<<< heterosexual >>>>> homosexual

I have never heard a single model of sexuality (including basic societal common wisdom) that fits this, as I understand it (i.e., puts heterosexuality in some way between bisexuality and homosexuality). You really think most people see it this way?

Long Duck Dong

May 21, 2010, 6:45 AM

I rolled my eyes cos I know better than to say anything at all... cos it snowballs....

I did not match tennis definition of pansexual... so I stated yes I am pansexual, then defined it so people could see the difference between me, tennis version and the generally accepted idea of a male bisexual in the site.... ( male perfers females long term but needs to suck cocks )

there is a reason why I do at times say I am pansexual, cos few people actually know what a pansexual is.... and have no idea about asexuals or intersex people... they just have the pre fab idea about what a bisexual is and does, and honestly, I am far from that type of bisexual ( perfers open relationships, seeks casual partners and hook ups, is focused on cocks not the whole person, can look at cheating rather than honesty in a relationship etc etc )

bisexuals have a bad rep with some people.... saying I am pansexual, doesn't give them that chance to knock me without getting to know me first....

Long Duck Dong

May 21, 2010, 7:05 AM

Well IMHO seeing how these are your opinions and points of view they can not be wrong. They might be wrong for me or for someone else but I can not call you wrong for you. In fact in this case I agree more then I disagree. So clearly I have walked into something here. All you said here MIGHT be debatable but to say it is wrong would be absurd and pointless. I have not been involved with too many of these arguments so I guess they are more common then I have noticed? I think it is very difficult for people too maintain these types of arguments because it brings up so much self judgement.

many people will disagree with the terms, not knowing what some of them actually mean... or that they even exist

a example is the asexual, a person that is not interested in penetrative sex or oral sex, they only enjoy kissing, hugging and possibly mutual masturbation... and I do know a few of them.... yet, in most psych reports and studies, they are lumped in with people that enjoy penetrative sex / oral sex....
in fact, they are a separate group inside the sexuality and sexual expression umbrella.... but its the same with the pansexuals, we are rarely mentioned.... and often referred to as bisexuals.... but we have a wider attraction range.....

but.... the moment I share terms like that, people start with the * why do we need labels anyway *..... and the reason is simple, if we didn't have a way to define ourselves, everybody would see us all in the same light and think that we are all the same

just4mefc

May 21, 2010, 4:14 PM

many people will disagree with the terms, not knowing what some of them actually mean... or that they even exist

a example is the asexual, a person that is not interested in penetrative sex or oral sex, they only enjoy kissing, hugging and possibly mutual masturbation... and I do know a few of them.... yet, in most psych reports and studies, they are lumped in with people that enjoy penetrative sex / oral sex....
in fact, they are a separate group inside the sexuality and sexual expression umbrella.... but its the same with the pansexuals, we are rarely mentioned.... and often referred to as bisexuals.... but we have a wider attraction range.....

but.... the moment I share terms like that, people start with the * why do we need labels anyway *..... and the reason is simple, if we didn't have a way to define ourselves, everybody would see us all in the same light and think that we are all the same

I think I see your point. However, IMHO your adding more labels is just more layers to the same problem "everybody would see us all in the same light and think we are the same" more labels does not change that human tendency. Now don't take this personally but I am not 12 years old and I don't care if people see me as the same, that is a THEM problem not a ME problem. This is why we (every human) must constantly check our biasses with people. On another point, I think part of the reason why people get upset with your terms is HOW you share them. I am learning that every time I read your posts I must first add "the following is my opinion" to the start of every point. If someone try's to share there view with you, you tend to have a dismissive reply. In reply to my post where I said I might not agree with all your terms but in concept I accept that they work for you. You came back with "in fact" language. Not sure if you mean it to sound this way, but once again you present "fact" when, in reality it is your "opinion" or from a less common usage of the word...

Example:

Asexual
definition from the Merriam-webster dictionary
(this would be a common usage)
Function: adjective
Date: 1830
1 : lacking sex or functional sex organs <asexual plants>
2 a : involving or reproducing by reproductive processes (as cell division, spore formation, fission, or budding) that do not involve the union of individuals or gametes <asexual reproduction> <an asexual generation> b : produced by asexual reproduction <asexual spores>
3 : devoid of sexuality (asexual relationship)

Now once again this does not necessarily make the statement you made wrong BUT terms such as "IN FACT" that are outside the normal usage should have backing. I can hear you now "I have the down under dictionary and that is the problem, the world is not the USA etc..." However seeing as how many ppl on this site are from North America (and Europe), It would be helpful if you would use language like "Here in NZ we expand on the concept of ...etc.." instead of "you are wrong, so there" the latter really comes off as dismissive and when not backed by evidence many ppl will strike out. I hope this is read with my true intent. That being to shed some light on why ppl might be offended from time to time. OR perhaps the site really is just filled with ignorant "suck my dick" assholes. Admittedly, I am not really sure.

In my OPINION. My view of things if you will. I see anyone who calls themselves bisexual as being part of a continuum. My first thought is always "cool nice to know someone who is not so trapped by labels" So I will always ask "what does being bi mean too you" and if they want to know about me they can ask. Who am I to say if someone is bi based on there actions? If a lesbian is isolated on an island for 20 years is she still a lesbian? What if she only identifies as a lesbian but has never had a female to female contact? Is she still a lesbian? Well if she says she is, then that is good enough for me. I don't care about "unless you have licked pussy your are only lesbian curious" crap. A persons identity is their own.

So here I am after all this back and forth to say "labels? we don't need more stinking labels" BUT if anyone wants to share the labels they hold for themselves, then cool bi me! Unless that label is "close minded-homophobic, gay bashing asshole" that is. That label can go to hell!

FalconAngel

May 21, 2010, 5:44 PM

After much consideration on the subject, and having never had sex with or on a pan, I cannot possibly be pansexual.

:rotate: :lokai: :doggie: :kiss: :yikes2: :cutelaugh: :bigrin: :bigrin:

Annika L

May 21, 2010, 7:40 PM

If a lesbian is isolated on an island for 20 years is she still a lesbian? What if she only identifies as a lesbian but has never had a female to female contact? Is she still a lesbian? Well if she says she is, then that is good enough for me. I don't care about "unless you have licked pussy your are only lesbian curious" crap. A persons identity is their own.

Yay! Someone else in my camp regarding this. Be warned though, just4me, many here disagree vehemently with you: it seems that the mode here believe that sexuality is about behavior, rather than attraction. *sigh*

if anyone wants to share the labels they hold for themselves, then cool bi me! Unless that label is "close minded-homophobic, gay bashing asshole" that is. That label can go to hell!

Here I must disagree with you. If only *one* class of people were going to own their label, I would want it to be the class of close-minded homophobic gay-bashing assholes. I want these people to stand up and declare their idiot selves, so we know who they are. When undesirable people lie hidden, like dog turds on the lawn, you're more likely to step in shit. When they stand out, it's easier to remove them.

just4mefc

May 21, 2010, 10:06 PM

... I want these people to stand up and declare their idiot selves, so we know who they are. When undesirable people lie hidden, like dog turds on the lawn, you're more likely to step in shit. When they stand out, it's easier to remove them.

great point and so damn funny! I worship the water you walk on

;)

Long Duck Dong

May 21, 2010, 11:29 PM

I think I see your point. However, IMHO your adding more labels is just more layers to the same problem "everybody would see us all in the same light and think we are the same" more labels does not change that human tendency. Now don't take this personally but I am not 12 years old and I don't care if people see me as the same, that is a THEM problem not a ME problem. This is why we (every human) must constantly check our biasses with people. On another point, I think part of the reason why people get upset with your terms is HOW you share them. I am learning that every time I read your posts I must first add "the following is my opinion" to the start of every point. If someone try's to share there view with you, you tend to have a dismissive reply. In reply to my post where I said I might not agree with all your terms but in concept I accept that they work for you. You came back with "in fact" language. Not sure if you mean it to sound this way, but once again you present "fact" when, in reality it is your "opinion" or from a less common usage of the word...

Example:

Asexual
definition from the Merriam-webster dictionary
(this would be a common usage)
Function: adjective
Date: 1830
1 : lacking sex or functional sex organs <asexual plants>
2 a : involving or reproducing by reproductive processes (as cell division, spore formation, fission, or budding) that do not involve the union of individuals or gametes <asexual reproduction> <an asexual generation> b : produced by asexual reproduction <asexual spores>
3 : devoid of sexuality (asexual relationship)

Now once again this does not necessarily make the statement you made wrong BUT terms such as "IN FACT" that are outside the normal usage should have backing. I can hear you now "I have the down under dictionary and that is the problem, the world is not the USA etc..." However seeing as how many ppl on this site are from North America (and Europe), It would be helpful if you would use language like "Here in NZ we expand on the concept of ...etc.." instead of "you are wrong, so there" the latter really comes off as dismissive and when not backed by evidence many ppl will strike out. I hope this is read with my true intent. That being to shed some light on why ppl might be offended from time to time. OR perhaps the site really is just filled with ignorant "suck my dick" assholes. Admittedly, I am not really sure.

In my OPINION. My view of things if you will. I see anyone who calls themselves bisexual as being part of a continuum. My first thought is always "cool nice to know someone who is not so trapped by labels" So I will always ask "what does being bi mean too you" and if they want to know about me they can ask. Who am I to say if someone is bi based on there actions? If a lesbian is isolated on an island for 20 years is she still a lesbian? What if she only identifies as a lesbian but has never had a female to female contact? Is she still a lesbian? Well if she says she is, then that is good enough for me. I don't care about "unless you have licked pussy your are only lesbian curious" crap. A persons identity is their own.

So here I am after all this back and forth to say "labels? we don't need more stinking labels" BUT if anyone wants to share the labels they hold for themselves, then cool bi me! Unless that label is "close minded-homophobic, gay bashing asshole" that is. That label can go to hell!

I am adding definition to labels, otherwise all we have is labels that can apply to anybody and make everybody the same

am I the same as a male with a desire to just suck cocks...????
am I the same as a male that is interested in casual sex...???
am I the same as a male that is wanting a open relationship...???
am I the same as a male that is emotionally / sexually attracted to females and only attracted to males cocks...???

no and the list goes on..... so what makes me different to other bisexuals....
the people I am attracted to, the level, what I seek and desire, and what works for me.....

the label is pansexual, but how I define me as me and not one of the crowd.... is wide ranging

btw, I was refering to people with the term asexual, not flowers.....
try this link Asexuality (http://www.asexuality.org/home/)

Long Duck Dong

May 21, 2010, 11:34 PM

Again Duck you do not seem to know a lot about human sexuality or sexual orientations at all based on what you have written on this thread so far.

In order to be bisexual someone has to actually be sexually attracted to both genders or both men and women.

People who are gay or straight can hang out and be friends with or interact socially with thousands of people of the same or opposite gender but this does not make them bisexual at all just because they can find both genders to be enjoayble to be around and interact with on a social level only.

Being bisexual is not a sexual fetish at all. Just like how being straight or gay is not a sexual fetish. They are all sexual orientations and not sexual fetishes.

As far as the idea of letting someone pick their own sexual orientation what would you do if a man is sexually attracted to only the same gender and yet maintains that they are straight/heterosexual? Or what if they are sexually attracted to both men and women and yet insist that they are straight or heterosexual? I also agree that the idea of letting a psychologist or a psychiatrist showing a patient a list of sexual orientations and saying "OK pick one!" is silly since if the person is not sure of their sexuality or if they are closeted they will say that they are heterosexual/straight.

ok cool, 20 years in the counseling and therapy fields, and I know nothing.....

I guess all the people in the site with differing opinions on what sexuality actually is and how its defined, are all right...... despite the fact that their own opinions contradict each other...

but one question.... if a bisexual has to be sexually attracted to other people.... how can a bisexual be bisexual while never having sex with people in order to prove / define their sexuality.....

simple, bisexuality is not limited to sex only..... its a multi range attraction..... that then breaks down into sex, emotions, desires, fantasies etc etc.... once experienced and used to define bisexuality for EACH person individually...

oh the fun of using blanket statements and sexuality umbrellas without allowing each person to define their sexuality

void()

May 22, 2010, 1:44 AM

Et tu Bruti?

"If we didn't have a way to define ourselves, everybody would see us all in the same light and think that we are all the same."

I appreciate and respect your point, sincerely I do. But my point and view begs to question, "aren't we all the same?" And I mean that in accord with 'the grand scheme of everything', we're all born human animals, live and die as such. We are one family, species of animal on Earth. Lions do not hunt lions save for extreme cases of self defense or territorial defense. Why must we be any different than they? And when folks, anyone, uses such labels and categories to define themselves, we wind up with exclusions. These exclusions readily imply difference, and this leads to misunderstanding, fear and hate.

And you're in the psychology field? I'll happily be insane, then. How someone with your self professed vaulted education, and profession can not understand my simple and basic point of view is really boggling. Point blank, we're all human, can we just agree to leave off at that? Does it matter to me what you do in the bedroom? Honestly? Not really. It's of no concern to me, here, or there even. I usually sleep in my bedroom, or enjoy sex with my wife or boyfriend. Do I exclude others? Not really. I choose though, as is my right, to be loyal to these two lovely people.

I don't actively seek other sexual partners. There's plenty of good reason, too. Disease is but one major influence. I could never live knowing I might have brought either of them sickness. And these two share that view. My wife has a boyfriend. She is extremely cautious in sex, doesn't go bed hoping with just any guy. She doesn't enjoy the company of women. I still love her, will remain married to her.

*sigh* I hate these types of threads. 99% of the time they aren't anything but pissing in the wind wars. And no, I'm not exactly attacking you Long. I am attacking your belief that just because you're educated, in a certain profession ... that your fecal matter doesn't smell, just like the next fellow's or gal's. And ultimately, everyone has an anus and opinion, most stink. And yes, I know mine do. Sorry, no amount of education can teach common sense, it seems. And that's what I'm attacking, the notion that it does, or makes you, or anyone who is educated, more right than anyone else.

That's common sense, it has no national borders, races, creeds, sexualities, preferences. It's just understood by most human animals on an instinctive level. We're hard wired for it, or so genetics research would be suggesting. And no I'm not claiming to have the market on common sense. That would be really off the rocker. And contrary to what some may opine, I am not insane, much even to my own surprise. :)

Long Duck Dong

May 22, 2010, 3:39 AM

I agree void..... we are all the same.... we hate labels... and we are all part of the human race.....

but, the first thing we do, is fight for our rights under our label.....the same label we do not want..... lol oh the irony

I have got one mutha fucker of a head cold at the moment and have had for a few days, so yeah, I am taking responsibility for the fact I am barely making much sense... and that it appears that I am not reading others posts... actually its just the fact that I can barely focus on much atm... and thats my fault

I am not better or worse than anybody else in the world... ( others can argue that point if they want )....and thats why I stand for basic human rights ( you may recall in other threads, me getting slammed for doing that and not being pro lgbt everything )

the most important reason for me to have a label and definition, is for my partner to who what she is dealing with.... before she agrees to a relationship.... and so we can have ground rules for both of us .... not just on when, where, how and who I can fuck....

I really should have never posted in this thread at all to be honest..... cos I know and understand that many people will be anti labels, yet claim the labels if rights are infringed upon, start threads about how labels are wrong if people wish to share about what label they walk under, and how wrong labels are for people anyway.... then help others work out what label person should be under and if the labels are correct anyway.....

so it begs the question, if labels and sexuality doesn't matter, then why do they exist ????

rissababynta

May 22, 2010, 10:15 AM

Yay! Someone else in my camp regarding this. Be warned though, just4me, many here disagree vehemently with you: it seems that the mode here believe that sexuality is about behavior, rather than attraction. *sigh*

.

Yes I think he put that quite well too haha.

MarieDelta

May 22, 2010, 10:57 AM

If I like both sauce pans and frying pans, does that make me a bisexual pansexual?(j/k)

We now return you to the serious discussion at hand ...

Annika L

May 22, 2010, 5:04 PM

Even if the person is a virgin they are still going to have sexual fantasies and sexual attractions to people or to both men and women.

If you're really a counselor NZ must have very dodgy and shitty requirements for being one.

Interesting strategy here...rather than flaming the individual, you choose to flame the entire culture he comes from. A flame is a flame. Your point in the first paragraph is fine, but if you continue to attack posters, I for one will report you.

void()

May 22, 2010, 9:41 PM

"I have got one mutha fucker of a head cold at the moment and have had for a few days, so yeah, I am taking responsibility for the fact I am barely making much sense... and that it appears that I am not reading others posts... actually its just the fact that I can barely focus on much atm... and thats my fault

Sorry to hear of the illness. Hope you do get well soon. Meanwhile, consider an herbal infusion of yarrow root and colt's foot leaf powder. Colt's foot contains tussin, the very same found in Vick's, Robotusin and many other popular otc cough medicines. The yarrow root can help break fevers. One or tea cups as a hot tea to suit a day. It may not cure a cold but it ought help make symptoms bearable.

I am not better or worse than anybody else in the world... ( others can argue that point if they want )....and thats why I stand for basic human rights ( you may recall in other threads, me getting slammed for doing that and not being pro lgbt everything )

Yes I do recall that. Still about half disagree with your point of view. But at least, after a bit of reading, reflection that is only half a disagreement. And hey, mature folks can agree to disagree on things. Not everyone does fit the 'one size fits all' mold, thankfully.

the most important reason for me to have a label and definition, is for my partner to who what she is dealing with.... before she agrees to a relationship.... and so we can have ground rules for both of us .... not just on when, where, how and who I can fuck....

Hm. That sounds to be akin to what me and the wife got. Her bf is coming to the house Tuesday, I'll be at work. He's waiting to actually bed her until he doesn't feel a need for using a condom. But they can get really steamy by cuddling, too. Then he'll leave, she'll come pick me up from work.

Elian stays busy, yet he does manage to eek in free time to come visit with me. And we enjoy one another's company to the fullest. Of course, he is in a position that does not afford the luxury of diseases. And I donate blood to public agencies such as Red Cross on occasion. I'm screened when they do that. Was recently screened in regards to blood work done for medication regarding mental health. They didn't report any bad news. I have the wife to think about as well. So, yeah I understand that aspect of things.

But I still really don't like labels. "If you don't compare yourself to others, they can't compare you either, thus you become incomparable."

so it begs the question, if labels and sexuality doesn't matter, then why do they exist ????

What is the meaning of life? "To live young grasshopper." :) Why did Mohamed climb the mountain? "Because it was there."

No, I don't have the answers either. But sometimes it's alright to not have them.
"

Long Duck Dong

May 22, 2010, 9:54 PM

Even if the person is a virgin they are still going to have sexual fantasies and sexual attractions to people or to both men and women.

If you're really a counselor NZ must have very dodgy and shitty requirements for being one.

yeah..... 7 shitty years of study to become a fully certified specialized counselor...... there are countries that you can do it in 1-3 years....

and yeah people do fantasize even as virgins, hence we call them sexuality curious.... they have not defined if their sexuality is sexual based unless they have the sexual contact...

the only thing lacking, is the sexual contact, but they already have the awareness of themselves to a point that they can define their attractions on a emotional and mental level....... it doesn't mean that they can not define their sexuality on a emotional and mental level..... cos they can

they are what is known as sexuality aware people.... they know what they are..... but they are called bi curious, as people base bisexuality around sexual contact only, which is incorrect.... bisexuality can cover emotional / mental and sexual attraction

if you wanna argue that bisexuality is sexual based..... then you are basically saying that bisexuals are merely people with a sexual fetish, they are only interested in sex with the same gender and focus on a specific aspect of the person..... but they can develop a full relationship with the opposite gender....

and the moment you argue that bisexuality is sexual based, then you have created the asexual and pansexual class of people, the ones that develop emotional and mental attractions to all genders...... and the relationships can be sexual or non sexual......

the trouble with telling me I am wrong.... is that you are telling the certified experts, they are wrong as I use their findings and case studies .......

Long Duck Dong

May 23, 2010, 3:37 AM

I said aspects of it were a sexual fetish by definition

A fetish is a form of paraphilia, and in fetishism, the affected person has created a strong association between an object and sexual pleasure or gratification. A fetish is not simply a pleasant memory—it is a dominant component of most sexual situations. Most fetishes are objects or body parts. Common fetishes involve items of clothing, stuffed animals, or other non-sexual objects. Body fetishes may involve breasts, legs, buttocks, or genitals.

I have no issues with virgins being bisexual.... but that requires bisexuality to be based around emotional and mental attraction, not sex..... as the person has no experience in the aspect of sex and no proof that they are bisexual beyond desire..... so that moots the argument in people that bisexuality is sex based.... but of course, I am wrong, they are right.....

yet, it does not exclude them from being bisexual.... but yeah I am wrong there too....

now if you will actually read some of my past threads, you will see where I have stated that bisexual latent aspects exist in every person and being told I am wrong, now you are sitting there telling me I am wrong for not accepting the bisexual latent nature of virgin bisexuals ???

sure tell me I am wrong, be like others, and I will be like the others that have sat and watched people slam me as wrong and not knowing what I am talking about....

yet, if we accept them as being right.... then bisexuality can not exist in everybody, but exists in everybody, bisexuality is a attraction on many levels, but only if its to do with actually having sex and nothing else, bisexual people are not able to function fully unless they are having sex,... and that any people that dares seek to stop a bisexual, having sex, is wrong and selfish, but a bisexual that cheats and lies, is in the right cos they have to have sex and the whole world needs to wake up and realise that bisexuals rights overrule everything including the rights, thoughts and feelings of partners of bisexuals who are not bisexual

so yeah, I am happy to be wrong..... but if I am wrong, then most of the bisexuals whose actions and words, match the definitions I post, are not bisexuals, they are self deluded liers....

but if I am right, then it creates a scenerio of where people are saying I am wrong, not cos I am right, but they want to be right about everything..... and that would make all the bisexuals that match the definitions I post, legit bisexuals within the sexuality spectrum.....

at the end of the day, I am not denying anybodies bisexuality at all... the people that are telling me that I am wrong, are the ones arguing if people are actually bisexual or not...... the definitions I post, define that bisexuality...

btw NZ has lgbt marriage rights..... not bad for a country that sucks so badly.... we recognize everybody as people with rights......not just the ones we want to fuck

Long Duck Dong

May 23, 2010, 5:09 AM

You do not use case studies in your arguments at all as your arguments are based more on your opinions than on actual case studies and verified sources.

When Just4mefc wrote about the APA and using actual case studies from real professionals and not from people like you, you claimed how such case studies and standards are pointless. :rolleyes:

now I have a question for you.... when you go to mc'D's do you tell them what type of burger you want... or do you just say, I want a burger.... give me a burger...

when you go to buy a car, do you just say, I want to buy a car, or do you give details of the type of car you want or need...

when you go to the doctor and require treatment for a illness, do you say, I am ill, cure me.... or do you give details on the illness for the doctor to treat you

well.... counselors are no different, we require details of your issues in order to work out what is going on and how you may need support, help and guidance, advice and when to be told the differences between your view of your issue and how we percieve your issue.....

now if you look at the APA....defining sexuality (http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx) the link is what is copied and pasted below..... and if the fucking APA statement matchs the same thing I have been saying... then its a lil harder to call me wrong, when a professional outfit is saying the same fucking thing

( yes I know what I said in other posts in the thread, and yes I was wrong in the way I put things regarding the APA and UNESCO, I had a head cold, but thats no excuse for the fact that I did not proof read and redo what I posted before I posted it )

Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person's sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex.
However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one's own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women).
This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world.
Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions.
In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes).
However, some people may use different labels or none at all.

Sexual orientation is distinct from other components of sex and gender, including biological sex (the anatomical, physiological, and genetic characteristics associated with being male or female), gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female),* and social gender role (the cultural norms that define feminine and masculine behavior).

Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age.
This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others.
People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment, and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one's sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people.

now.... they base sexuality about sexual behievour and other behievour..... but if a person is not having sex at all, how can they have a sexuality.....????????
the key is the APA put any and all activity of a sexual nature on the same level as full sex... that rules out asexual people and pansexual.... and they define gender as male and female, that rules out alternative genders such as intersex, non sexual

but they also distance sexual orientation from the other aspects of people, that the average person will use to define sexuality.... IE gender and gender attraction.....its not a contradiction in terms, and they are in fact acknowledging the 3 basic sexualities, but the defining factors that expand it from beyond just the 3 base sexualities....
what they are saying is that they acknowledge there is more than 3 sexualities, but how the fuck do you define something that is so differcult to define, when most people define themselves based on gender and gender attraction only..... not the rest of the factors as the APA points out

just4mefc

May 23, 2010, 1:46 PM

Long Duck Dong

May 23, 2010, 5:29 PM

Man oh man can we all just get along or what. I see how quickly things get crazy around here. So just to be clear I am not supporting anyone in the bashing of Long. I had a bunch of issues with his language earlier and I am glad to see he is feeling better and appears to be taking responsibility for his words. See in his last post he is providing some validation for his statements, some references if you will. Now that I can get into. I love debate and healthy disagreement. I can understand that Long is frustrated from being bashed. He works from his point of view in his native land of NZ. BTW from everything I have read or seen NZ seems like a very cool place and I hope to go see for myself someday. When I argue with Long it is regarding one of us asserting a particular constraint on the others terms. I am certain I will continue to take issue with things he says. We seem to rub each other the wrong way. (I think we need more lube ;) ) but that does not make him evil nor deserving of attack.

hugs just4.... yeah migraines and head colds do me in badly...... and the language is something that is deliberately awkward.... it makes it a lot harder for people to dissect my posts and twist them around.... but it also tells me how much a person actually knows and understands, by the way they respond......

the thing is I respect all opinions, as it forces me to rethink my opinions and change them where needed or research a lil more.... thats why its bloody rare I tell people they are wrong, instead I will throw in opposing points of view and differences of opinion, to ensure I am seeing the issue from all sides, not just my point of view.... sadly not everybody is the same, thats why I get told I am wrong so much... but the humorous thing about it is that often I will use statements and quotes that other people have made in the past..... and in fact they are saying they are wrong and full of shit, cos they do not recognize their own opinions in others posts......

anyways just4, thanks for a good solid and interesting debate..... I have never really been much of a supporter or believer in the APA, based on things like they used to diagnosis homosexuality as a mental illness.... and even now... it appears like they like to side step awkward issues a lot...... but... that happens with a group of psychs... its no different in NZ