THE PACIFIC TV PROGRAM

[LOTUS]

I WAS TOLD THAT THE AMERICANS WERE NOT THERE IN THAT WAR IT WAS THE KIWIS AND AUSSIES THERE yes i was told by friends and so called experts and my grandad that there were no americans dying with them at that time and if there was they didnt see them. all the kiwis and aussie that lost there live on the beach and the rest of the island were {not americans}. but yet the program is all american and nothing else. funny that. anyway if any of you guys can help pls tell me id love to know.
now yes i know the americans came in at the end but they were not there in the beging when a lot of kiwis and aussie were shot and killed for everyone in the sane world.

so pls help
now in case you dont know what a kiwi is i mean a newzealander which is called a kiwi in that country
id like to add this from other site thats has the some thread


{according to the most decorated American of all time
USA forces have never one a battle on equal terms anywhere ..IM sure there are /were many mnay brave tough USA servicemen ..it's a pity Hollywood makes up so much shite
even to the extent of making war films showing the US as the main protagonists,when it was all Shite ..long range desert group action/ the egnima files ect..,taking on overwhelming enemy forces and beating them ,never happened ..but yes the coral sea battle was the end of Jap dominance in the pacific}

[TwylaTwobits]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battles/ww2/coral_sea.htm

Quoted:

We are grateful for American intervention in the Battle of the Coral Sea but the fact is that only the ANZAC force stood in the way of a Japanese capture of Port Moresby and the complete isolation of Australia from the rest of the world. Not only that, this action and the Coast Watchers, together with our Intelligence staff and support teams, weakened Japanese strengths at the later Battle of Midway.

Another link
http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/ww2/bfa/coralsea.html

ANZAC was the combined forces of Australia and New Zealand. But all who served from any nation deserve our utmost respect. It was a world wide effort to end WWII.

[Long Duck Dong]

research ww2, and you will find a lot of places that the us didn't go....thats why in a lot of war movies, they focus only on the areas the us did turn up...or they make up things......welcome to hollywood

I will not deny that the us played a large role in ending ww2, but so did the anzacs, the russians, the british and many unsung heroes from other nations, including poland, france, belgium etc etc...sadly many of their stories are never told or shared with the world

what you find in websites and on programs is often not the truth or only part of it......so my advice is to talk to the vets themselves, they know the truth, they were there.....

[LOTUS]

I WAS TOLD THAT THE AMERICANS WERE NOT THERE IN THAT WAR IT WAS THE KIWIS AND AUSSIES THERE yes i was told by friends and so called experts and my grandad that there were no americans dying with them at that time and if there was they didnt see them. all the kiwis and aussie that lost there live on the beach and the rest of the island were {not americans}. but yet the program is all american and nothing else. funny that. anyway if any of you guys can help pls tell me id love to know.
now yes i know the americans came in at the end but they were not there in the beging when a lot of kiwis and aussie were shot and killed for everyone in the sane world.

so pls help
now in case you dont know what a kiwi is i mean a newzealander which is called a kiwi in that country
id like to add this from other site thats has the some thread


{according to the most decorated American of all time
USA forces have never one a battle on equal terms anywhere ..IM sure there are /were many mnay brave tough USA servicemen ..it's a pity Hollywood makes up so much shite
even to the extent of making war films showing the US as the main protagonists,when it was all Shite ..long range desert group action/ the egnima files ect..,taking on overwhelming enemy forces and beating them ,never happened ..but yes the coral sea battle was the end of Jap dominance in the pacific}

heres one more i found man you americans made jerks of yr self in the war

My Grandfather served throught the Pacific during the war.

He was seconded to the Americans as an Island scout, would row asore at night in a little rubber boat, map the Jap positions, shoot as many he could while hiding out for a couple of days, then would swim out to be picked up by the PT boats.

He said the Yanks were great at rushing into battles then when things quietened down they would back off. The kiwi troops had to go through and clean up a lot of botched or un-finished American missions. Took the yanks more than three weeks to attempt to take a strategic hill over looking an airfield . . . the kiwis did it in an afternoon.

A great trick of the Japs was to sneak up to American lines at nigt and throw a can full of stones amongst them. The Yanks would get so spooked by the noise they would start shooting each other.

The Americans were great for the amount of food and equipment they could provide but were not very good at strategy. Overwhelming shock and awe seemed to be the only thing they knew how to do.

[tenni]

I'm not quite sure what country that you are really from Lotus?

What country was your grandfather living in?...Australia? New Zealand? or?

[TwylaTwobits]

heres one more i found man you americans made jerks of yr self in the war

My Grandfather served throught the Pacific during the war.

He was seconded to the Americans as an Island scout, would row asore at night in a little rubber boat, map the Jap positions, shoot as many he could while hiding out for a couple of days, then would swim out to be picked up by the PT boats.

He said the Yanks were great at rushing into battles then when things quietened down they would back off. The kiwi troops had to go through and clean up a lot of botched or un-finished American missions. Took the yanks more than three weeks to attempt to take a strategic hill over looking an airfield . . . the kiwis did it in an afternoon.

A great trick of the Japs was to sneak up to American lines at nigt and throw a can full of stones amongst them. The Yanks would get so spooked by the noise they would start shooting each other.

The Americans were great for the amount of food and equipment they could provide but were not very good at strategy. Overwhelming shock and awe seemed to be the only thing they knew how to do.


Less of the chest beating please, there are lot of people on this board that not only had parents and grandparents who served but who lost their lives. So in short, grow up. History 101 is never the complete truth about any nation. As I posted.......Everyone that served deserves our respect. By the way... you are showing in America now :p

[TwylaTwobits]

I'm not quite sure what country that you are really from Lotus?

What country was your grandfather living in?...Australia? New Zealand? or?

He had a previous thread stating he was in New Zealand, Tenni. But then apparently he thinks Canada is a city in the US... :tong:

[Long Duck Dong]

there is a reason for that, twyla and tenni...


Jun 20, 2009 , 8:06 PM #23
LOTUS
hi how are u

USA, Alabama

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 13

Re: WHY DO THE AMERICANS FEEL THEY R THE ONE AND ONLY {if you r easly upset dont read
hi thanks for all that response from thats thread
sone one said whats next well give me a little time and ill bring a new one about aussie or the uk. na just wait and see i like all the comments , and remember i said not all the people in the states are like that just most of them.
lolololololol, im kidding just about half.

cheers anyway

lotus
hey i live in newzealand how about someone give us a shot like i did to america ...thats if u know where we are lolololol.

[mariersa]

Yikes, am I reading this acurately, I think the OP definitely needs to read a hell of a lot more Pacific History during WW2. I'm not a fan of conflict but, if you want to piss people off, start spitting out inacurate stuff. :(

[JP1986UM]

I just love how he insults the men interviewed on Pacific and basically calls their stories complete fabrications made up in the imagination of their demented minds. I guess all they did was deliver potatoes to the ANZAC while those guys went in and did all the heavy work.

This is so....just stupid, it doesn't even deserve a response.

So I won't.

Carry on soldier.:banghead:

[Darkside2009]

heres one more i found man you americans made jerks of yr self in the war

My Grandfather served throught the Pacific during the war.

He was seconded to the Americans as an Island scout, would row asore at night in a little rubber boat, map the Jap positions, shoot as many he could while hiding out for a couple of days, then would swim out to be picked up by the PT boats.

He said the Yanks were great at rushing into battles then when things quietened down they would back off. The kiwi troops had to go through and clean up a lot of botched or un-finished American missions. Took the yanks more than three weeks to attempt to take a strategic hill over looking an airfield . . . the kiwis did it in an afternoon.

A great trick of the Japs was to sneak up to American lines at nigt and throw a can full of stones amongst them. The Yanks would get so spooked by the noise they would start shooting each other.

The Americans were great for the amount of food and equipment they could provide but were not very good at strategy. Overwhelming shock and awe seemed to be the only thing they knew how to do.

Lotus, you sound very young, so I'm taking that into account.

The War was won by allies, each played their part and contributed toward the overall success.

Millions lost their lives in it, many more were wounded, either physically, or with such mental trauma that it affected the rest of their lives and the lives of their families.

I'm glad your Grandfather survived the War but it ill behooves you to mock other Nations contribution to the War effort.

For many Americans, as indeed for all the Allies, their Grandfathers didn't make it back, and I would ask that you show the proper respect for their loss, and the grief their families suffered as a consequence.

If you read your history books regarding the battle for the Greek island of Crete. You will see that thousands of Allied soldiers were saved and enabled to escape German capture by the actions of the Cretan people,( mainly, British, Australian and New Zealand troops).

For this, and their subsequent resistance to the Germans many Cretans lost their lives when the Germans massacred entire villages of their menfolk.

Many young Germans, Italians and Japanese also lost their lives.

It is a common sight to wander around the military cemetaries in Europe and see the ages on the headstones as eighteen or nineteen.

They lost their lives fighting for what they believed in. At that age, many would never even have had the opportunity to fall in love, marry or raise their own families.

They too have suffered, their grief is no less painful than ours, please remember that.

As to films, they are meant to entertain, and make a profit for their producers, one shouldn't really expect them to be accurate historical documents.

Sometimes they were just made to boost moral of the audience viewing them.

Some like John Wayne didn't serve in the military, others like Tyrone Power, Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart did.

For my part, I thank each and every one of them. Wonder in awe at their accomplishments and the privations they endured and the sacrifices they made to ensure victory.

I also feel deeply sad at the loss of all those young men and women. The cream of their generation and the lost opportunities it represents.

You can honour your Grandfather and his fallen comrades best by striving to make the best you can of your life.

By best, I don't mean richest, I mean a decent, honourable person that deals truthfully and honestly with other people.

Treat others with the same dignity and respect you would accord your Grandfather, I think that would make him proud.

[Darkside2009]

heres one more i found man you americans made jerks of yr self in the war

My Grandfather served throught the Pacific during the war.

He was seconded to the Americans as an Island scout, would row asore at night in a little rubber boat, map the Jap positions, shoot as many he could while hiding out for a couple of days, then would swim out to be picked up by the PT boats.

He said the Yanks were great at rushing into battles then when things quietened down they would back off. The kiwi troops had to go through and clean up a lot of botched or un-finished American missions. Took the yanks more than three weeks to attempt to take a strategic hill over looking an airfield . . . the kiwis did it in an afternoon.

A great trick of the Japs was to sneak up to American lines at nigt and throw a can full of stones amongst them. The Yanks would get so spooked by the noise they would start shooting each other.

The Americans were great for the amount of food and equipment they could provide but were not very good at strategy. Overwhelming shock and awe seemed to be the only thing they knew how to do.

Lotus, you sound very young, so I'm taking that into account.

The War was won by allies, each played their part and contributed toward the overall success.

Millions lost their lives in it, many more were wounded, either physically, or with such mental trauma that it affected the rest of their lives and the lives of their families.

I'm glad your Grandfather survived the War but it ill behooves you to mock other Nations contribution to the War effort.

For many Americans, as indeed for all the Allies, their Grandfathers didn't make it back, and I would ask that you show the proper respect for their loss, and the grief their families suffered as a consequence.

If you read your history books regarding the battle for the Greek island of Crete. You will see that thousands of Allied soldiers were saved and enabled to escape German capture by the actions of the Cretan people,( mainly, British, Australian and New Zealand troops).

For this, and their subsequent resistance to the Germans many Cretans lost their lives when the Germans massacred entire villages of their menfolk.

Many young Germans, Italians and Japanese also lost their lives.

It is a common sight to wander around the military cemetaries in Europe and see the ages on the headstones as eighteen or nineteen.

They lost their lives fighting for what they believed in. At that age, many would never even have had the opportunity to fall in love, marry or raise their own families.

They too have suffered, their grief is no less painful than ours, please remember that.

As to films, they are meant to entertain, and make a profit for their producers, one shouldn't really expect them to be accurate historical documents.

Sometimes they were just made to boost moral of the audience viewing them.

Some like John Wayne didn't serve in the military, others like Tyrone Power, Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart did.

For my part, I thank each and every one of them. Wonder in awe at their accomplishments and the privations they endured and the sacrifices they made to ensure victory.

I also feel deeply sad at the loss of all those young men and women. The cream of their generation and the lost opportunities it represents.

You can honour your Grandfather and his fallen comrades best by striving to make the best you can of your life.

By best, I don't mean richest, I mean a decent, honourable person that deals truthfully and honestly with other people.

Treat others with the same dignity and respect you would accord your Grandfather, I think that would make him proud.

[darkeyes]

As everyone must know by now I am a pacifist.. my loathing of war is absolute.. but so is my loathing of stereotyping nations and peoples for what they did or did not do during peacetime or conflict.. we hear much of what Americans British Germans Italians are like, and other nations.. that Americans were gung-ho.. that they were great at killing there own side (Blue on blue is that the expression?).. that Italians on the other side were great at running away.. one gear forward 3 gears back.. other things are said of other peoples.. much is said by anecdote.. all I say is be wary of anecdote.. and be wary of personal prejudice.. read up on it and dont just take one authority before making a judgement on any people.. and dont believe everything Grandad tells you about his war experiences and what friend and foe were like..

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Uhmm, I realize that its a little early for me here, and this may not make a great deal of sense, but What is the actual point of this thread? That war was a Long time ago, what's the point of bringing it up now? And as far as who did what, thats not important right now. The point is the Veterans that fought From Any Country did what they had to do to keep us sititng here reading this Now. So instead of bitching about it or insulting a country, just think about the freedoms they fought and died for. YOUR freedoms and the freedoms all to live and enjoy at this very moment. Our children and Grandchildren can also enjoy these freedoms, so why question it and take pot shots at it? Just be happy that you Can enjoy the life you live now, and that you Can endulge whatever vocation that you wish.

Thanks a Vet everyday, Ya'll. Plain and simple.
Now someone help me down off'n this soapbox. My knees are being a bitch today...:disgust:
Cat

[Canticle]

Lotus, you sound very young, so I'm taking that into account.

The War was won by allies, each played their part and contributed toward the overall success.

Millions lost their lives in it, many more were wounded, either physically, or with such mental trauma that it affected the rest of their lives and the lives of their families.

I'm glad your Grandfather survived the War but it ill behooves you to mock other Nations contribution to the War effort.

For many Americans, as indeed for all the Allies, their Grandfathers didn't make it back, and I would ask that you show the proper respect for their loss, and the grief their families suffered as a consequence.

If you read your history books regarding the battle for the Greek island of Crete. You will see that thousands of Allied soldiers were saved and enabled to escape German capture by the actions of the Cretan people,( mainly, British, Australian and New Zealand troops).

For this, and their subsequent resistance to the Germans many Cretans lost their lives when the Germans massacred entire villages of their menfolk.

Many young Germans, Italians and Japanese also lost their lives.

It is a common sight to wander around the military cemetaries in Europe and see the ages on the headstones as eighteen or nineteen.

They lost their lives fighting for what they believed in. At that age, many would never even have had the opportunity to fall in love, marry or raise their own families.

They too have suffered, their grief is no less painful than ours, please remember that.

As to films, they are meant to entertain, and make a profit for their producers, one shouldn't really expect them to be accurate historical documents.

Sometimes they were just made to boost moral of the audience viewing them.

Some like John Wayne didn't serve in the military, others like Tyrone Power, Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart did.

For my part, I thank each and every one of them. Wonder in awe at their accomplishments and the privations they endured and the sacrifices they made to ensure victory.

I also feel deeply sad at the loss of all those young men and women. The cream of their generation and the lost opportunities it represents.

You can honour your Grandfather and his fallen comrades best by striving to make the best you can of your life.

By best, I don't mean richest, I mean a decent, honourable person that deals truthfully and honestly with other people.

Treat others with the same dignity and respect you would accord your Grandfather, I think that would make him proud.

So eloquently put. So well written. Need I say more? No! Thank you Darkside.

[Canticle]

As everyone must know by now I am a pacifist.. my loathing of war is absolute.. but so is my loathing of stereotyping nations and peoples for what they did or did not do during peacetime or conflict.. we hear much of what Americans British Germans Italians are like, and other nations.. that Americans were gung-ho.. that they were great at killing there own side (Blue on blue is that the expression?).. that Italians on the other side were great at running away.. one gear forward 3 gears back.. other things are said of other peoples.. much is said by anecdote.. all I say is be wary of anecdote.. and be wary of personal prejudice.. read up on it and dont just take one authority before making a judgement on any people.. and dont believe everything Grandad tells you about his war experiences and what friend and foe were like..

More wise words Fran!

[FalconAngel]

He had a previous thread stating he was in New Zealand, Tenni. But then apparently he thinks Canada is a city in the US... :tong:

Actually, Twyla, considering some of the township names in use here, I would not be surprised if there were a town called "Canada", somewhere in the US.:eek:

But I think I will look on Google Earth to see if there is one before I assume, one way or the other.:tongue:

[tenni]

I have not watched the Pacific and so I'm a little uncertain if what I am about to write is off base or not.

This is a movie channel series. When I consider other US made films about WW2 etc., I realize that the bias is sometimes so overwhelming incorrect. An example would be "Saving Private Ryan" which was supposedly based on a true incident if I recall. It was entertaining if you can see entertainment in a war. It totally ignored what the other allied countries were doing at the same time. It was presented as if only the US was involved in WW2.

Now, considering what the OP wrote and I can deceipher, I can see a little bit of his concern that there may be a very strong bias towards US involvement and minimizing the Australia and New Zealand. I may be wrong but that is what I think may be going on in the US series?

[BiBedBud]

Get real people! We're debating a TV program? Should anyone be surprised :eek: that there's a generous dose of make-believe in it?

Duh!

[Canticle]

Uhmm, I realize that its a little early for me here, and this may not make a great deal of sense, but What is the actual point of this thread? That war was a Long time ago, what's the point of bringing it up now? And as far as who did what, thats not important right now. The point is the Veterans that fought From Any Country did what they had to do to keep us sititng here reading this Now. So instead of bitching about it or insulting a country, just think about the freedoms they fought and died for. YOUR freedoms and the freedoms all to live and enjoy at this very moment. Our children and Grandchildren can also enjoy these freedoms, so why question it and take pot shots at it? Just be happy that you Can enjoy the life you live now, and that you Can endulge whatever vocation that you wish.

Thanks a Vet everyday, Ya'll. Plain and simple.
Now someone help me down off'n this soapbox. My knees are being a bitch today...:disgust:
Cat

Although the reasons for the OP beginning this thread, do seem a little clouded, fuzzy.....there will always be a good reason, for discussing any war, be it current conflicts, those of the 20th century, or those from 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000 plus years ago. For although times may change, the nature of the human species, does not.

Wars have been fought, throughout history, for many different reasons. The technology may change, weapons become more sophisticated, but the same base, human behaviour remains. Torture, massacre, rape, starvation, killing all the men in an area, genocide. You name it....it's happened, happens and will happen.

WWII saw mass genocide and concentration camps. A thing we all thought, would never be seen again. We had to think again......in the late 1990s...the old Yugoslavia......camps.....European Muslim males, looking like Belsen victims and massacres of these people, by their fellow countrymen.

That war.....WWII was not a long time ago. It raged from 1939 - 1945 and the ''veterans,'' of that war are still alive. Men who still suffer. Men who will never forget the battles and if they were in Asia and taken prisoner by the Japanese, the inhumanity of the prisoner of war camps. They need to be remembered. War, any war needs to be remembered and we also need to remember just how young all of those young combatants were.

The soldiers, sailors, airman of WWII did what they had to do, because their country expected it of them. If they were not already serving in the forces, then they were conscripted. It was not a choice, unless they wished to declare that they were a conscientious objector and refuse to serve in the forces. A lot of those people didn't fight, but supported the forces in other ways.

Not only are those who served in the armed forces, to be remembered, but all those at home, who served in the munitions factories, ambulance, fire and police and medical services. Those people who may not have been combatant, because their job, was what was called ''reserved occupation,'' such as miners. The people who worked on building the planes, should be remembered (my own father worked on the construction of parts of the Lancaster Bombers, being a skilled sheet metal worker). People built ships, tanks etc etc.

My husband's great uncle was a Chemist and is the only civilian to have won both the George Medal and the George Cross Medal. The arms factory he was attached to, as a Chemist, suffered two different explosions and he went in, surrounded by bits of body etc, to make things safe, therefore saving more lives.

Remember also, the very many women in those factories and those who served in the forces. The men and women who went to work with the different resistance movements, on behalf of the allies and those who were captured, tortured and lost their lives.

Then there are the civilians, in all allied countries, who helped to raise money and that was thin on the ground. The many civilians, who died, innocent people......just like the innocent civilians of all conflicts, since then, including current conflicts.

Lots of people fought, in many different ways, for the freedoms we have today and there are still freedoms to be won, for people in every part of the world. The fight never ends. Yes, we should be grateful to all the allied forces personnel, who fought in WWII, but never should we think that it was a long time ago.

A war that saw approximately 55 million people die, is never a long time ago. A war that saw so many thousands, exterminated in two atomic bombs being dropped, is never a long time ago.

Sometimes, I wonder exactly what freedoms we did win...for I do not think the world has recovered from WWII and it was certainly not a war to end war, for conflicts have continued and sometimes, it is so obvious, that it is not the liberating of a nation and it's people, which is the driving force behind the conflict.

The ordinary Joe and Joette, can only focus on everyday life and the troubles and joys that befall them. They work hard, pay their taxes and bills, educate and raise their children and try to lead decent lives. This is what the majority of all the Joes and Joettes on this planet do and want to do, whatever their race, creed or colour. They don't want war. They don't want to see their young killed, civilian or in the forces. They just want to lead good and happy lives.

All of us, should most certainly, as individuals and as families, concentrate on the here and now and be grateful for any freedom fighters, or armed forces, who have made our lives, that little bit more free. But never, should any war be forgotten. Think of the many millions of armed forces who have died and for nothing, over the centuries. Hannibal was a great battle strategist and he influenced ''Stormin' Norman,'' in the first Iraq war. Did Hannibal achieve anything...was the first Iraq war just a run up and practice, for what the powers that be, knew was inevitable?

Maybe I am odd, but I can cry for the young men lost in wars hundreds of years ago and I think that is because I am a mother. I cried last week. A young man, who was at school with my sons, was killed in Afghanistan. He wasn't shot, or blown up, but died in an accident when a bridge collapsed, a bridge over a waterway. Makes the war come very close to home,

There, but for the grace of God, go you and I. There, but for the grace of the Cosmos, go us all.

[tenni]

I think that it is important that mass media (tv) portray historical events as accurately as possible. As new information is released from classified documents historical accuracy needs to follow in mass media presentations.

Although some license may be granted to the personal aspects of story lines outright lies and historical distortions should not be accepted. We have enough problems over here with US mass media confusing dumb Canucks. Hell, some Canucks think that they have Miranda rights etc. because they see it in US television mainstream shows...lol US history looks sexy due to the sexy storylines in US movies and tv while our own history looks boring to the kids. There are virtually no Canadian movies being played in Canadian cinemas due to the fact that the US movie industry owns or controls all Canadian cinemas. Free trade thoughts from the US are that culture (historical etc.) are just a commodity like a car or box of cereal. When misinformation is promoted in US presentations about such things as WW2 in the Pacific, this becomes another domination by the US culture elsewhere in the world. That is my experience and perspective.

Another example of inaccuracy is that to refer to the United States of America as "America" is a gross inaccurarcy. For people in the US to refer to themselves as "American" is not incorrect but so am I an American, anyone living in Mexico, Brazil, Venezula etc. We are all Americans just as the French, Italians, Germans are Europeans but who stole this term for themselves?...greedy bastards...lol

If you live in the States, you probably have no idea how much Yank misinformation-propoganda bombardments and distortions pours out from your boarders.

[darkeyes]

Maybe I am odd, but I can cry for the young men lost in wars hundreds of years ago and I think that is because I am a mother. I cried last week. A young man, who was at school with my sons, was killed in Afghanistan. He wasn't shot, or blown up, but died in an accident when a bridge collapsed, a bridge over a waterway. Makes the war come very close to home,

There, but for the grace of God, go you and I. There, but for the grace of the Cosmos, go us all.

I cry real tears for the dead of war.. I cry for the waste and the pointlessness of it.. I cry for even those who are soldiers who have acted brutally and who lost their lives.. I cry for the waste of that life and the corruption of it.. but most of all my tears are for those caught up in war and who have no choice but to live through it.. the men women and children who die, are maimed, are dispossessed by a war of which they are but hapless vistims.. who wish only to live their lives in peace..

I hate armed conflict and do not.. never shall support our or anyone elses troops.. to do so when they do something I so loathe and is so morally wrong would be the rankest of hypocrisies..

.. and I curse the f****** b******* who are responsible for sending those young men and women to kill and maim and dispossess.. I curse their greed, their selfishness.. their desire for power and wealth.. their contempt for human life and for our planet.. I curse their very existence...

[BiBedBud]

I think it is a bigger mistake to apply utopian ideals and hold unrealistic expectations of the media. The media is about 'product' -- nothing more and nothing less. The whole purpose of a movie is to make money -- full stop. The whole purpose of a TV program is to get us to watch the commericals -- full stop.

Anyone who expects some resemblence to reality, particularly harsh reality, is just waiting to get fooled. I would argue it's much more important to teach children and adult citizens to be media-savvy, and to go back to the books and think critically about what they read, rather than wait to be spoon-fed supposed truth through any mass media owned and operated by corporate interests who profit from war and make it happen with half-truths and full-on lies.

For what it's worth: I agree that the TV babies who suck-up shows like 'The Pacific' as the gospel truth, or who think 'Saving Private Ryan' told an important story about WWII -- these people are clueless and are waiting to be led to slaughter by the war machine, yet again.

For crying-out-loud; most 'Westerners' actually think they (we) won WWII -- whereas in actual terms (treasure, territory), the second world war was won by the Soviets (who actually paid the heaviest price, in terms of 25 million dead). But, if you go by what any TV or movie made in 'the West' would have you believe; Fascism was beaten (primarilly by American firepower and the stiff upper lip of the British -- HOGWASH).

The truth is that Fascism wasn't defeated, it just went covert. Indeed, many of the military and scientific elite of the Nazis went to work for the Americans (Google 'Operation Paperclip'). The same mentality that Fascists held while installed in the axis powers of WWII, has now been subtly (but undeniably) installed in the halls of power in 'the West', who control a compliant (and increasingly drugged) population of TV babies who believe almost everything they see on the TV, and happily march off to war for trumped-up reasons.

TO BE CLEAR: I'm not saying that OBL and AQ should have gotten a pass after 911. They deserve to be hunted and destroyed (even though I do subscribe to the LIHOP theory). I just have to ask if the best way to do that is with all of the expensive deployments that have been made -- which toss countless people into the meat-grinder, brewing up more problems then were solved. Too much was made of OBL and AQ, and they were elevated in status as a result. They should have been squashed like the bugs they are, rather than invoke their narrative of the 'clash of civilizations' that they want to promote.

But witness the 'war machine'; which could never make the required profits from an invasion of Afghanistan, and had to bring Iraq into the mix -- not only in a hope to profit from Iraqi oil (which never really happened), but also to enrich defense companies with taxpayer dollars spent on military hardware (presently to the tune of $30 Billion per month).

Follow the money, and it'll start to make sense -- you'll see which levers of power are being pulled by whom, and in which direction. Feeding us BS versions of history is simply a means to an end. No thinking person should expect otherwise.

[Canticle]

I cry real tears for the dead of war.. I cry for the waste and the pointlessness of it.. I cry for even those who are soldiers who have acted brutally and who lost their lives.. I cry for the waste of that life and the corruption of it.. but most of all my tears are for those caught up in war and who have no choice but to live through it.. the men women and children who die, are maimed, are dispossessed by a war of which they are but hapless vistims.. who wish only to live their lives in peace..

I hate armed conflict and do not.. never shall support our or anyone elses troops.. to do so when they do something I so loathe and is so morally wrong would be the rankest of hypocrisies..

.. and I curse the f****** b******* who are responsible for sending those young men and women to kill and maim and dispossess.. I curse their greed, their selfishness.. their desire for power and wealth.. their contempt for human life and for our planet.. I curse their very existence...

Hand in glove with you, Petal........and remember, the Cosmos meters out, it's own judgement and punishment, even if we humans do not. Somewhere along the road, those who should be held accountable, are. We may never know, in what way, shape or form, but it does happen.

[LOTUS]

ok ill say why i put it for all the dip shits that dont understand and im 40 is that pold enough for u lol
the americans cant tell the tuth about anything even if it was to save there own lives and when they make a tv progam they have to have all the criedt {my spelling stinks by the way} the other comments were from others that had family there as well and thats why they were put there.
a lot of usa kids think there dad did all of what is showen on that program {ive seen it and read it on a web page} but they didnt the kiwis and aussie did thats what im talking about
and do u realy think im going to put where i live on one of these site like half the people on here dont do
anyway i hope you all can understand why i put this on

cheers

[BiBedBud]

Dear darkeyes and Canticle,

I am touched by your tears and your faith in a greater justice. But so what? You can't 'operationalize' tears and faith -- they do no actual work and cannot save us from the next time the war machine needs feeding.

What we need is an informed electorate and citizens who can think critically about issues that matter, rather than 'fantasy football' pools or 'Idol' TV shows.

Educate the youth. Speak out. Publish. Challenge power. Question authority. Spread knowledge. Share stories across borders. Become an activist. Lobby governments and corporations. Reassess your investment portfolio. Rationalize your energy usage. Patronize companies that are doing good, and shun companies that are doing bad (investigate ownership). Be the change you want to see in the world.

Then, after you've done all that, if you must still cry or put your faith in an abstraction like 'cosmic justice', at least you'll know you did more than feel bad about how F-ed up this world is right now.:2cents:

[TwylaTwobits]

ok ill say why i put it for all the dip shits that dont understand and im 40 is that pold enough for u lol
the americans cant tell the tuth about anything even if it was to save there own lives and when they make a tv progam they have to have all the criedt {my spelling stinks by the way} the other comments were from others that had family there as well and thats why they were put there.
a lot of usa kids think there dad did all of what is showen on that program {ive seen it and read it on a web page} but they didnt the kiwis and aussie did thats what im talking about
and do u realy think im going to put where i live on one of these site like half the people on here dont do
anyway i hope you all can understand why i put this on

cheers

I think it's clear you haven't posted often on this board but all of your posts have a similiar flavor....I won't bother to read any more of your posts and give you the attention you so obviously crave.

[rissababynta]

I think it's clear you haven't posted often on this board but all of your posts have a similiar flavor....I won't bother to read any more of your posts and give you the attention you so obviously crave.

Yeah, hateful little bugger aren't they :tong:

[12voltman59]

The story line of this mini-series comes in large measure from the writings of the charcters featured in the program---and each of them had much written about them or they themselves had written on it and had their own books published on their experiences.

While there were people from other countires like the British, Australians, New Zelanders and others who took part in the invasions of those islands---this series pretty much details the experiences of members of the US Marine Corps during their campaigns across the Pacific islands---this is hardly made up stuff. It is in the history books.

As it happened, just a few weeks ago--I happened to catch the appearance of Hugh Ambrose at a local bookstore, son of the late and well respected historian, Stephen Ambrose, who had started the project and Hugh took it up upon his dad's death---much of the material that was the basis for this HBO miniseries comes from Hugh Ambrose's book.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Pacific/Hugh-Ambrose/e/9781101185841

[Canticle]

''Dear darkeyes and Canticle,''

''I am touched by your tears and your faith in a greater justice. But so what? You can't 'operationalize' tears and faith -- they do no actual work and cannot save us from the next time the war machine needs feeding.''

I think you read both Fran and myself, incorrectly. Also, I think you are wrong. From belief, compassion, tears, anger etc, comes the strength to strive for right, fight for freedom, declare ''war,'' upon the cruel, unjust, evil and inhuman things, that go on in the world. The tears and a faith in a greater justice, are needed to operationalise the actions which need to be taken, upon the ''physical,'' front.

''What we need is an informed electorate and citizens who can think critically about issues that matter, rather than 'fantasy football' pools or 'Idol' TV shows.''

I doubt that anyone, with any sense, would disagree with you there.

''Educate the youth. Speak out. Publish. Challenge power. Question authority. Spread knowledge. Share stories across borders. Become an activist. Lobby governments and corporations. Reassess your investment portfolio. Rationalize your energy usage. Patronize companies that are doing good, and shun companies that are doing bad (investigate ownership). Be the change you want to see in the world.''

Of course, all these things should take place and everyone can do ''something,'' no matter how small that ''something'' may be. Some will take a stand and protest about an action, or event which causes problems, only on a very personal level. I tend to believe that that each small protest, has a knock on affect. I hope so.

''Then, after you've done all that, if you must still cry or put your faith in an abstraction like 'cosmic justice', at least you'll know you did more than feel bad about how F-ed up this world is right now.:2cents:''

Mothers always cry! Mothers will always cry. If you do not understand, how very different, that maternal view of what happens during war and conflict and about loss, on a personal and worldwide scale, then I am afraid, I am unable to explain it to you.

The Cosmos metering out it's own justice is not an abstract one. What we give out, we usually get in return. Those that do evil, eventually find things catch up with them and they are held to account. So, once again, if you don't understand me, or anything Fran says....that's tough.

Fran is an activist. Or have't you read any of her past posts. I like to think that I support what is right and if I had to, I would fight for the rights of others in a very active manner, even the rights of those, I may not agree with. Mothers do that for their young.......they fight like a she cat for them. And if they don't. they have no right to be a mother.

The world is no more f*c*ed up, than it has ever been. What makes you think that the 20th and now the 21st century, are worse than any other period of time. For those that lived in the centuries leading up to modern times, there was still war, loved ones died, land and wealth were lost, there was disease, the most terrible religious persecutions etc etc. The world has been raped, time and time again and time and time again...it fights back.

Times may change.....people do not. We have the same hopes and dreams today, as humans had 1000, 2000 years ago. We are no more evolved in the way we treat our fellow humans, in many cases less so, than what went on centuries ago.

[LOTUS]

OK THATS FAIR BUT WHAT IM SAYING AND OTHERS THAT I HAVE POSTED IS THAT WHAT THEY SHOW ON TV IS WHAT WAS DONE BY THE KIWIS AND AUSSIE NOT THE AMERICANS. THEY WERNT EVEN THERE AT THAT TIME BUT HEY AS LONG AS U GUYS THINK THEY WERE I GUESS YR RIGHT LOL
AND THERES NO TELLING YOU THAT ITS NOT TRUE

CHEERS GUYS AND THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS

[darkeyes]

Dear darkeyes and Canticle,

Educate the youth. Speak out. Publish. Challenge power. Question authority. Spread knowledge. Share stories across borders. Become an activist. Lobby governments and corporations. Reassess your investment portfolio. Rationalize your energy usage. Patronize companies that are doing good, and shun companies that are doing bad (investigate ownership). Be the change you want to see in the world.

Then, after you've done all that, if you must still cry or put your faith in an abstraction like 'cosmic justice', at least you'll know you did more than feel bad about how F-ed up this world is right now.:2cents:

I have done all of that ever since I became old enough to have any inkling of what goes on in this world.. so no need to preach to me about activism.. it is second nature and is something which I will continue to do as far as I am able for as long as I am able...

.. hun I do more than merely cry for our world.. to do less makes me not worth calling myself human.. in all of that, Canticle is right about the value of tears...

[BiBedBud]

Dear Canticle and darkeyes,

First, I’d like to apologize if I came across as condescending. That was not my intent and I am sorry if I read you incorrectly, which I think perhaps I have. I did not mean to preach to the choir, so to speak. I was more aiming at waking-up the sleepers among us.

Let me explain myself: I have little faith in ‘greater justice’ because I have seen so little of it, and all the while I have seen evils perpetuated and extended beyond the limits of nightmarish imagination. Like you, I do understand about crying – I have cried myself, both for people I do not know, and for my own family members too, so I do not need any kind of explanation for it. What I do need is for thoughtful people of conscience – wherever in the world they may be – to do more than weep and pray.

I am of the opinion that far too many people on this planet have cooled their anger with tears, and softened their indignation with prayer, and the net result of all this crying and praying has been to allow things to get obscenely worse, day by day.

As for the “Cosmos metering out it’s (sic) own justice”, that sounds like an article of faith to me, and I’ve seen no justification for it whatsoever. Of course, I am not a religious person, and you sound like you are – so please try to understand that I can take no comfort in your articles of faith – they are meaningless to me and to the countless dead who have died by the bidding of the rich and powerful who will probably live long lives of comfort themselves.

For the record: I am not entirely sure who ‘Fran’ is, since I only know people by their monikers. Moreover, I have not been on this (very nice) website for very long, so you must excuse me for my ignorance regarding ‘Fran’s’ activism.

Regarding your contention that; “The world is no more f*c*ed up, than it has ever been”, I would argue that you are overlooking some major developments in recent human history, if you really think that’s true. Sure, there has always been war, death, injustice, disease and persecution, et cetera, et cetera. What makes our times worse is the industrialization of these processes, and the technological developments that have enabled wholesale slaughter on a level and scale that never existed before. Let me explain…

A thousand years ago, a man could shoot another man in battle with a bow and arrow, and that man would die. That’s tragic. Fifty years ago, a man could shoot twenty men with a machine gun, and they would all die. Arguably, that’s a bigger tragedy. Nowadays, a helicopter gunship can shoot a hundred people at a time, and while this is still arguably even a worse tragedy – that doesn’t tell the whole story. Why? Because that helicopter gunship is firing depleted uranium (DU) rounds – even in built-up urban areas like Baghdad – and each one of those rounds is generating uranium dust, which is travelling downwind and blowing around, to be inhaled by any passing human being, causing birth defects and genetic damage that will maim and kill innocents for years to come. That’s right: the targets of some of our weapons are well beyond the man with a gun who opposes ‘us’. We are now waging war on ‘the enemy’s’ DNA, and so his children and their children as well. If that's not a crime against humanity, I don't know what is. Unfortunately, it's also standard operating procedure.

http://www.collateralmurder.com/

Now, I’m not even touching on ‘real’ nuclear weapons, which can destroy all life on earth, and I haven’t mentioned biological warfare or even the more subtle chemical warfare that we’re all subjected to in modern society (Google ‘endocrine disruptors’). On a more fundamental level, our consumerist lifestyle and pollution-intensive modes of production, transportation and disposal, can literally kill us all – every person on the planet. This kind of jeopardy did not exist 2000 years ago, nor 1000 years ago, nor even fifty years ago. It’s new.

If we don’t come to terms with it and tackle it by concrete means – while we’re not too busy crying and praying – then we’re all doomed, every one of us.:2cents:

[darkeyes]

Just so u know.. I am Fran.. most call me it and I didnt find ur post condescending in the least...I did find it just lacking in understanding of my, and Canticles own position.. you made assumptions and you were wrong.. but we all do that at times and its not a big deal..

.. and I do substantially agree with the end of your last post.. we do live in a much changed world.. a much more dangerous world.. it is different.. but unlike Canticle I do think humanity has changed substantially over the last few thousand years.. we just have to look around us and see how we organise our societies, how we abhor things which a few short years ago even were accepted as honourable and just and truth.. how we have had accepted things not so long ago which were considered immoral and disgraceful and abominable.. yes we are still a violent, shitty species.. and we can do ourselves and our woorld irreparable harm.. but large numbers of us know this and are acting to try and stop these things.. a few centuries ago we would not even think about it.. we would do what was expected.. we have changed as a species.. in many ways for the better.. not enough sure, but it is our technological and scientific destructiveness which disguises just how much progress we have made.. and are still making.. I dont expect everyone to agree with what I am saying.. but its what I believe from my reading of the modern world and our role in it.. we may still destroy ourselves, yet I am optimistic that somehow we shall avoid that grim end.. it is what I think I see going on around me and around the world that proviudes me with that optimism.. it doesnt mean I will sit back and rest on my laurels..quite the contrary.. with every small success it gives me more courage and more determination that we shall make our world better, and that I will continue to do my bit in ensuring that is just what happens... I have faith in humankind..

[Canticle]

Dear Canticle and darkeyes,

First, I’d like to apologize if I came across as condescending. That was not my intent and I am sorry if I read you incorrectly, which I think perhaps I have. I did not mean to preach to the choir, so to speak. I was more aiming at waking-up the sleepers among us.

Let me explain myself: I have little faith in ‘greater justice’ because I have seen so little of it, and all the while I have seen evils perpetuated and extended beyond the limits of nightmarish imagination. Like you, I do understand about crying – I have cried myself, both for people I do not know, and for my own family members too, so I do not need any kind of explanation for it. What I do need is for thoughtful people of conscience – wherever in the world they may be – to do more than weep and pray.

I am of the opinion that far too many people on this planet have cooled their anger with tears, and softened their indignation with prayer, and the net result of all this crying and praying has been to allow things to get obscenely worse, day by day.

As for the “Cosmos metering out it’s (sic) own justice”, that sounds like an article of faith to me, and I’ve seen no justification for it whatsoever. Of course, I am not a religious person, and you sound like you are – so please try to understand that I can take no comfort in your articles of faith – they are meaningless to me and to the countless dead who have died by the bidding of the rich and powerful who will probably live long lives of comfort themselves.

For the record: I am not entirely sure who ‘Fran’ is, since I only know people by their monikers. Moreover, I have not been on this (very nice) website for very long, so you must excuse me for my ignorance regarding ‘Fran’s’ activism.

Regarding your contention that; “The world is no more f*c*ed up, than it has ever been”, I would argue that you are overlooking some major developments in recent human history, if you really think that’s true. Sure, there has always been war, death, injustice, disease and persecution, et cetera, et cetera. What makes our times worse is the industrialization of these processes, and the technological developments that have enabled wholesale slaughter on a level and scale that never existed before. Let me explain…

A thousand years ago, a man could shoot another man in battle with a bow and arrow, and that man would die. That’s tragic. Fifty years ago, a man could shoot twenty men with a machine gun, and they would all die. Arguably, that’s a bigger tragedy. Nowadays, a helicopter gunship can shoot a hundred people at a time, and while this is still arguably even a worse tragedy – that doesn’t tell the whole story. Why? Because that helicopter gunship is firing depleted uranium (DU) rounds – even in built-up urban areas like Baghdad – and each one of those rounds is generating uranium dust, which is travelling downwind and blowing around, to be inhaled by any passing human being, causing birth defects and genetic damage that will maim and kill innocents for years to come. That’s right: the targets of some of our weapons are well beyond the man with a gun who opposes ‘us’. We are now waging war on ‘the enemy’s’ DNA, and so his children and their children as well. If that's not a crime against humanity, I don't know what is. Unfortunately, it's also standard operating procedure.

http://www.collateralmurder.com/

Now, I’m not even touching on ‘real’ nuclear weapons, which can destroy all life on earth, and I haven’t mentioned biological warfare or even the more subtle chemical warfare that we’re all subjected to in modern society (Google ‘endocrine disruptors’). On a more fundamental level, our consumerist lifestyle and pollution-intensive modes of production, transportation and disposal, can literally kill us all – every person on the planet. This kind of jeopardy did not exist 2000 years ago, nor 1000 years ago, nor even fifty years ago. It’s new.

If we don’t come to terms with it and tackle it by concrete means – while we’re not too busy crying and praying – then we’re all doomed, every one of us.:2cents:

You were doing well and so eloquently........until. To me you've just stated the obvious. I don't think we can really know how many thousands perished many centuries ago, allowing for the eact, that the world population was smaller etc etc etc.

And NO, I ain't religious, well, not in any way that people are able to understand.....though I have tried. Since when has the Cosmos been religious?

You're right and you're wrong and where you may be right, I won't agree with you, on principle.

[Canticle]

Just so u know.. I am Fran.. most call me it and I didnt find ur post condescending in the least...I did find it just lacking in understanding of my, and Canticles own position.. you made assumptions and you were wrong.. but we all do that at times and its not a big deal..

.. and I do substantially agree with the end of your last post.. we do live in a much changed world.. a much more dangerous world.. it is different.. but unlike Canticle I do think humanity has changed substantially over the last few thousand years.. we just have to look around us and see how we organise our societies, how we abhor things which a few short years ago even were accepted as honourable and just and truth.. how we have had accepted things not so long ago which were considered immoral and disgraceful and abominable.. yes we are still a violent, shitty species.. and we can do ourselves and our woorld irreparable harm.. but large numbers of us know this and are acting to try and stop these things.. a few centuries ago we would not even think about it.. we would do what was expected.. we have changed as a species.. in many ways for the better.. not enough sure, but it is our technological and scientific destructiveness which disguises just how much progress we have made.. and are still making.. I dont expect everyone to agree with what I am saying.. but its what I believe from my reading of the modern world and our role in it.. we may still destroy ourselves, yet I am optimistic that somehow we shall avoid that grim end.. it is what I think I see going on around me and around the world that proviudes me with that optimism.. it doesnt mean I will sit back and rest on my laurels..quite the contrary.. with every small success it gives me more courage and more determination that we shall make our world better, and that I will continue to do my bit in ensuring that is just what happens... I have faith in humankind..

''but unlike Canticle I do think humanity has changed substantially over the last few thousand years.. we just have to look around us and see how we organise our societies, how we abhor things which a few short years ago even were accepted as honourable and just and truth.. how we have had accepted things not so long ago which were considered immoral and disgraceful and abominable.''

That I would call conditioning. I still believe that the majority of people upon this planet are appalled and abhor, all that we used to think terrible. that is my faith in the human species. I believe that previous civilisations became just as corrupt, lacking morality and caring about the citizens and fell due to the greed of officialdom and through wars fought to win more territory. i don't think we are all that different, today.

''yes we are still a violent, shitty species.. and we can do ourselves and our woorld irreparable harm.. but large numbers of us know this and are acting to try and stop these things.. a few centuries ago we would not even think about it.. we would do what was expected.. we have changed as a species.. in many ways for the better.. not enough sure, but it is our technological and scientific destructiveness which disguises just how much progress we have made.. and are still making.. I dont expect everyone to agree with what I am saying.. but its what I believe from my reading of the modern world and our role in it.. we may still destroy ourselves, yet I am optimistic that somehow we shall avoid that grim end.. it is what I think I see going on around me and around the world that proviudes me with that optimism.. it doesnt mean I will sit back and rest on my laurels..quite the contrary.. with every small success it gives me more courage and more determination that we shall make our world better, and that I will continue to do my bit in ensuring that is just what happens... I have faith in humankind..''

You're right and you're wrong.....in my eyes.....and that is the beauty of being human. We see things from many different perspectives and you should be optomistic for the human race. We are animals. Animals fight to stay alive, to survive. Sometimes we lose....sometimes we win, but if we never try, we never find out, what is over the horizon, at the end of the rainbow.

I think some of the most civilised people upon this planet are the people of rain forest and jungle tribes. these tribal peoples are closer to the true meaning of human existence and that word you hate, Fran....spirituality. But you know something, spirituality has nothing to do with religion. even the most ardent atheist can be spiritual, because it is all about what lies within each person and understanding that we are all connected to one another and to the flora and fauna of the planet, the earth itself and to the wider universe.

[darkeyes]

To some degree we are all conditioned Canticle even those of us who are the most free in spirit and mind.. for how else can we be so unless we reject and defy the conditioning around us? And even the most free accept many of the tenets of society.. for not all are bad..

And where did u find out I reject spirituality? It is not something I have ever said.. I do reject any connection with religion and a God or Gods.. but many people have a form of spirituality just as you mention.. it goes with the person not with any omnipotent being..

[darkeyes]

To some degree we are all conditioned Canticle even those of us who are the most free in spirit and mind.. for how else can we be so unless we reject and defy the conditioning around us? And even the most free accept many of the tenets of society.. for not all are bad..

And where did u find out I reject spirituality? It is not something I have ever said.. I do reject any connection with religion and a God or Gods.. but many people have a form of spirituality just as you mention.. it goes with the person not with any omnipotent being..

..and we have as a species improved in so many ways.. we have abolished slavery for the most part.. we strive for and have achieved a greater degree of support for equality for all than at any time in millenia.. we are a far more compassionate people.. we govern ourselves if not perfectly then much more failry than at any time since we ceased to be hunter gatherers.. we are once again beginning to reach out to mother earth and appreciate her bounty not simply exploit it without thought.. we loathe and oppose tyranny.. we have attained acceptance officially for gay, bisexual and transgendered people.. we do not any longer have human sacrifice.. Racism is no longer accepted and tolerated.. a husband no longer has absolute control over his wife, her property or his children.. Men are no longer considered the superior sex... we may war, but we have rules of war and how to treat an enemy.. we no longer approve the slaughter of civilians and we have apparatus for the prosecution of war criminals.. we for the first time accept war crime as a crime.. there is a powerful peace movement around the world.. our leaders can no longer murder and steal and plunder society with impunity and we no longer accept their God given right to rule.. education exists as of right for all and absolute ignorance by the masses is no longer the useful tool for the state it once was..so leaders can be and are held to account.. Religion is no longer held over us to blackmail us into submission to its will and that of the state..

These and many more things have moved on in the last couple of thousand years.. we have evolved and are evolving as a species..we will continue to do so if we survive.. of course all of these evolutionary developments are spread unevenly around the planet.. many tyrannies remain.. appaling discrimination.. much superstition and great cruelty and poverty.. but at no time in recorded history have we ever had all of these things begin to come together as they are now.. much remains to be done.. it will have to be fought for and it will involve great sacrifice by many.. in all of this Canticle many will be and are being conditioned.. not all conditioning is bad... once we were conditioned to accept the divine right of a king, that Holy Church was the final arbiter of human morality and the one link to God..then we conditioned, educated if you prefer (but what else is education??) humanity out of it...