More on the American involvement in th "kill the gays" bill

[FalconAngel]

Whether you believe it or not, this does affect the LGBT community, not just in Uganda.

Now before all you Christians accuse me of Christian bashing, remember that this has been reported in the news. These people cannot seem to get it to stick very well here, yet, so instead they are exporting their hate to other countries.
I have not, nor will I ever, make this stuff up. I don't need to. The bad press against Christians is created by their own religion's members.
So either accept that you are allowing people like that, members of the WBC, Televangelists, The Call and other extremist groups to speak unopposed by the reasonable and intelligent members of Christianity, or stand up as a whole and publicly and loudly oppose them and their policies of hate.

Don't kill the messenger just because the message isn't PC or pretty enough for you.

It isn't any group that creates tyranny, it is a lack of voiced and and unified opposition.

If you want to get rid of those whackos and restore public opinion of your religion, then you Christians need to all stand up with the rest of us to get rid of those types, no matter their religion or yours.

When we stand silently by, we allow them to connect to other weak-minded people and build their cult followings of hate.

http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/on-ugandas-kill-the-gays-bill-who-does-lou-engle-think-hes-kidding/


On Uganda's 'Kill the Gays' Bill, Who is Lou Engle Trying to Kid?

On Sunday, a crowd of 1,300 people gathered at the Makerere University sports grounds in Kampala, Uganda, for a rally and prayer service that was attended by American religious fundamentalist Lou Engle of TheCall Ministries. At the event, Engle, along with several local speakers, vociferated on the evils of witchcraft, corruption and homosexuality. Prior to the event, Engle had vowed to stay away from promoting the much discussed Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, but it seems he can not escape accusations that his presence in Uganda, and his diatribe against homosexuality at the event, amounted to just that.

In the past, Engle, founder of TheCall ministries, used his platform to call for "Christian martyrdom" against abortion and has even preached that gays and lesbians are possessed by demons.

Responding to the swathe of criticism TheCall received over its plans to launch a new chapter in Uganda as marked by the aforementioned prayer event, a move that LGBT rights supporters feared would reignite anti-gay protests in Uganda given Engle's (all too literal) demonizing of LGBTs in the U.S., Engle issued a press statement on April 28 in which he dubiously claimed that he "had no knowledge at the time, of the Uganda homosexual bill and the controversy surrounding it" despite the international coverage the issue has received.

He went on to say that "[TheCall's] belief and intent has never been about promoting hatred toward the homosexual community as a whole or towards individuals who identify as LGBT" while claiming that TheCall Ministry had been "wrongly marked and vilified" by gay rights supporters, adding that the Ministry did not "support the bill as written" while also stating that TheCall's interest was only to "take a clear stand on biblical truth on matters of sexuality."

Why TheCall feels it must make such a stand in Uganda, and at this particular time, was not addressed, however the statement then categorically emphasized:

"Therefore TheCall, though continuing to be held in Uganda, will not promote this bill."

Following the event, the New York Times released an article that appears to be calling Engle out for doing everything but:

Before arriving here last week, Mr. Engle came out with a statement condemning the harsh penalties proposed in the bill, and said that his ministry could not support it. But when he took the stage late on Sunday afternoon, with Ugandan politicians and pastors looking on, he praised the country’s “courage” and “righteousness” in promoting the bill.

“NGOs, the U.N., Unicef, they are all coming in here and promoting an agenda,” Mr. Engle said, referring to nongovernmental organizations. “Today, America is losing its religious freedom. We are trying to restrain an agenda that is sweeping through the education system. Uganda has become ground zero.”

...The bill’s sponsor, David Bahati, who attended Sunday’s service, said in an interview that it was likely that some of its harsher provisions, including the death penalty, would be taken out before its passage, which he said he expected soon. But, he said, the goal of the bill would remain the same. The turnout for the free prayer service, and the support from Mr. Engle, were a good sign, Mr. Bahati said.
Another overview of the event, this time from Religion Dispatches, supports the notion that Engle, who went on stage after several local speakers had already called for passage of the anti-gay bill, avoided specifically promoting the bill while at the same time praised the sentiment behind it as being justified. He also appeared to try and garner sympathy for the storm of protest he has come up against, likening it to the criticism that Uganda's politicians have faced since the 'Kill the Gays' bill was first proposed:

“We know that Uganda has been under tremendous pressure—the church. We felt that same pressure. But I felt like The Call was to come and join with the church of Uganda to encourage you that in the nation who are showing courage to take a stand for righteousness in the earth,” Engle said...

Engle was careful never to explicitly call for the passage of the bill itself, and to avoid being accused of inciting violence. “We are not standing with violence or hatred to people with homosexual lifestyles,” he preached. Still, as he does in the United States, he insisted that homosexuality harms society: “We are trying to restrain an agenda that is going to hurt the nation and hurt families.”

In addition to homosexuality, Engle preached against abortion and child sacrifice and repeatedly praised Uganda for its piety. “I think that Uganda is beyond the U.S. in their stand for righteousness,” Engle commented to reporters in a brief exchange on the way from the stage to his car, stipulating that he didn’t mean the anti-gay bill...

Noteworthy is the fact that Ethics and Integrity Minister James Nsaba Buturo took to the stage shortly after Engle to forcefully push the bill, saying that, “We must tell the whole world that Uganda will not accept that nonsense that says homosexuality is a human right, it is an abomination.”

Religion Dispatches then has this interesting paragraph that really gets to the heart of the issue:

...Even before Buturo’s speech, several Ugandan gay rights activists who watched the event from a back row of seats said they were disappointed with Engle and The Call. “They tried to avoid the issue of inciting violence but they did not come out and condemn the bill, which was in their [press] statement,” said Dennis Wamala, who works with a group called Icebreakers Uganda. “They did not come out in any way to say this bill is wrong.”
What surprises me is that Engle and TheCall seriously thought that this slight of hand in not actively promoting the bill itself but rather condemning homosexuality as morally corrosive and then praising Uganda's defense of "traditional values", would convince anyone that Engle's fostering of "TheCall Uganda" and his presence at the event did not amount to an endorsement of the legislation or make him complicit.

I am also particularly chilled by the statement that Engle makes wherein he says that Uganda has become "ground zero" for this so-called culture war, therein invoking the notion that homosexuality is a Western import into Uganda. This is precisely the language that LGBT groups and human rights organizations warned against when Engle first announced he would be going to Uganda for this event.

One notes that not only did Engle use this opportunity to fan the flames of anti-gay animus in Uganda, which his weak protest against violence can not mask, he also chose to take a swipe at the U.N. and UNICEF too, the latter being a charitable organization that has done vital work in Uganda by providing emergency assistance to thousands after natural disasters such as recent landslides and flooding, while, on a more local level, trying to get children back to school in Uganda's war torn regions and most recently helping to facilitate a girls education movement to further help vulnerable children in Uganda.

By accusing UNICEF of trying to push an agenda, Enlge has risked turning people away from a vital resource and lifeline, and it is precisely this kind of scaremongering that makes voicing explicit support for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009 redundant; it is enough for Engle to just throw around inflammatory rhetoric because such notions add to the climate of fear in Uganda and rouse support for such extreme measures as the Anti-Homosexuality Bill in a far more effective way.

Through his actions, Engle may have reignited the fuse on the ideological bomb that was planted last year when other radical American fundamentalists traveled to Uganda and hosted their seminar on "Exposing the Homosexual Agenda." This became the driving force behind the "Kill the Gays" legislation to begin with. Now Engle has perpetuated and given new life to this message whether he intended to or not. All that remains is to see just how much damage this event has been done, all this coming at a time when there was some small hope that support for the bill might be fading.

However, what seems clear is that the only person that Lou Engle is kidding when it comes to the effect that his preaching on homosexuality and "traditional values" will have on tensions in Uganda, is Lou Engle himself.

As such, pro-equality faith leaders and LGBT rights supporters have created a Facebook group through which people can stay informed on "TheCall Uganda" events and organization. You can join the group by going here. Alternatively, you can follow them on Twitter by going here.

The Call and all of their extremist allies, other Christians that support or refuse to oppose them are all of the ones giving Christianity a bad name.

Those people will not stop untill their brand of Christianity rules the world, which means that once the GLBT's are gone, then all other religions will be their next target and then the other Christians that do not toe their line.

Can you say "executed for heresy"? Stand up against them or face that potential reality, because that is what they are promoting for Uganda, as a first step.

[Jason0012]

Heresy? I'm definitely guilty, now I dare you to do anything about it! I am also a terrible sinner on a number of levels. And a heathen to boot!:tongue:

Thing is though, Uganda might be the only place these wacko's can get any traction. Its easy to sway a government that only barely exists. In most of the developed world proposing these kinds of laws would get a person fitted with one of those special vests with the long arms that tie in the back and packed away to the padded room.

[Annika L]

Whether you believe it or not, this does affect the LGBT community, not just in Uganda.

Now before all you Christians accuse me of Christian bashing, remember that this has been reported in the news. These people cannot seem to get it to stick very well here, yet, so instead they are exporting their hate to other countries.
I have not, nor will I ever, make this stuff up. I don't need to. The bad press against Christians is created by their own religion's members.
So either accept that you are allowing people like that, members of the WBC, Televangelists, The Call and other extremist groups to speak unopposed by the reasonable and intelligent members of Christianity, or stand up as a whole and publicly and loudly oppose them and their policies of hate.

Don't kill the messenger just because the message isn't PC or pretty enough for you.



Egad, Falcon! All this apology and defensiveness before you even tell people what it is they're going to crucify you for?? That's no way to share information and get people on your side, man!


If you want to get rid of those whackos and restore public opinion of your religion, then you Christians need to all stand up with the rest of us to get rid of those types, no matter their religion or yours.

When we stand silently by, we allow them to connect to other weak-minded people and build their cult followings of hate.


And "those Christians" don't particularly have a public opinion problem with their religion. It's us pagans who are looked at askance, dear.

Somehow, I don't think calling people "you Christians" and telling them what they have to do to save their image problem is going to garner you much support.

I dunno...the whole tone of this argument just sounds so depressingly...familiar. Next, I suppose I'll hear that if I don't stand with you then I'm against equal rights for all.

[Darkside2009]

Whether you believe it or not, this does affect the LGBT community, not just in Uganda.

Now before all you Christians accuse me of Christian bashing, remember that this has been reported in the news. These people cannot seem to get it to stick very well here, yet, so instead they are exporting their hate to other countries.
I have not, nor will I ever, make this stuff up. I don't need to. The bad press against Christians is created by their own religion's members.
So either accept that you are allowing people like that, members of the WBC, Televangelists, The Call and other extremist groups to speak unopposed by the reasonable and intelligent members of Christianity, or stand up as a whole and publicly and loudly oppose them and their policies of hate.

Don't kill the messenger just because the message isn't PC or pretty enough for you.

It isn't any group that creates tyranny, it is a lack of voiced and and unified opposition.

If you want to get rid of those whackos and restore public opinion of your religion, then you Christians need to all stand up with the rest of us to get rid of those types, no matter their religion or yours.

When we stand silently by, we allow them to connect to other weak-minded people and build their cult followings of hate.

http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/on-ugandas-kill-the-gays-bill-who-does-lou-engle-think-hes-kidding/


On Uganda's 'Kill the Gays' Bill, Who is Lou Engle Trying to Kid?

On Sunday, a crowd of 1,300 people gathered at the Makerere University sports grounds in Kampala, Uganda, for a rally and prayer service that was attended by American religious fundamentalist Lou Engle of TheCall Ministries. At the event, Engle, along with several local speakers, vociferated on the evils of witchcraft, corruption and homosexuality. Prior to the event, Engle had vowed to stay away from promoting the much discussed Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, but it seems he can not escape accusations that his presence in Uganda, and his diatribe against homosexuality at the event, amounted to just that.

In the past, Engle, founder of TheCall ministries, used his platform to call for "Christian martyrdom" against abortion and has even preached that gays and lesbians are possessed by demons.

Responding to the swathe of criticism TheCall received over its plans to launch a new chapter in Uganda as marked by the aforementioned prayer event, a move that LGBT rights supporters feared would reignite anti-gay protests in Uganda given Engle's (all too literal) demonizing of LGBTs in the U.S., Engle issued a press statement on April 28 in which he dubiously claimed that he "had no knowledge at the time, of the Uganda homosexual bill and the controversy surrounding it" despite the international coverage the issue has received.

He went on to say that "[TheCall's] belief and intent has never been about promoting hatred toward the homosexual community as a whole or towards individuals who identify as LGBT" while claiming that TheCall Ministry had been "wrongly marked and vilified" by gay rights supporters, adding that the Ministry did not "support the bill as written" while also stating that TheCall's interest was only to "take a clear stand on biblical truth on matters of sexuality."

Why TheCall feels it must make such a stand in Uganda, and at this particular time, was not addressed, however the statement then categorically emphasized:

"Therefore TheCall, though continuing to be held in Uganda, will not promote this bill."

Following the event, the New York Times released an article that appears to be calling Engle out for doing everything but:

Before arriving here last week, Mr. Engle came out with a statement condemning the harsh penalties proposed in the bill, and said that his ministry could not support it. But when he took the stage late on Sunday afternoon, with Ugandan politicians and pastors looking on, he praised the country’s “courage” and “righteousness” in promoting the bill.

“NGOs, the U.N., Unicef, they are all coming in here and promoting an agenda,” Mr. Engle said, referring to nongovernmental organizations. “Today, America is losing its religious freedom. We are trying to restrain an agenda that is sweeping through the education system. Uganda has become ground zero.”

...The bill’s sponsor, David Bahati, who attended Sunday’s service, said in an interview that it was likely that some of its harsher provisions, including the death penalty, would be taken out before its passage, which he said he expected soon. But, he said, the goal of the bill would remain the same. The turnout for the free prayer service, and the support from Mr. Engle, were a good sign, Mr. Bahati said.
Another overview of the event, this time from Religion Dispatches, supports the notion that Engle, who went on stage after several local speakers had already called for passage of the anti-gay bill, avoided specifically promoting the bill while at the same time praised the sentiment behind it as being justified. He also appeared to try and garner sympathy for the storm of protest he has come up against, likening it to the criticism that Uganda's politicians have faced since the 'Kill the Gays' bill was first proposed:

“We know that Uganda has been under tremendous pressure—the church. We felt that same pressure. But I felt like The Call was to come and join with the church of Uganda to encourage you that in the nation who are showing courage to take a stand for righteousness in the earth,” Engle said...

Engle was careful never to explicitly call for the passage of the bill itself, and to avoid being accused of inciting violence. “We are not standing with violence or hatred to people with homosexual lifestyles,” he preached. Still, as he does in the United States, he insisted that homosexuality harms society: “We are trying to restrain an agenda that is going to hurt the nation and hurt families.”

In addition to homosexuality, Engle preached against abortion and child sacrifice and repeatedly praised Uganda for its piety. “I think that Uganda is beyond the U.S. in their stand for righteousness,” Engle commented to reporters in a brief exchange on the way from the stage to his car, stipulating that he didn’t mean the anti-gay bill...

Noteworthy is the fact that Ethics and Integrity Minister James Nsaba Buturo took to the stage shortly after Engle to forcefully push the bill, saying that, “We must tell the whole world that Uganda will not accept that nonsense that says homosexuality is a human right, it is an abomination.”

Religion Dispatches then has this interesting paragraph that really gets to the heart of the issue:

...Even before Buturo’s speech, several Ugandan gay rights activists who watched the event from a back row of seats said they were disappointed with Engle and The Call. “They tried to avoid the issue of inciting violence but they did not come out and condemn the bill, which was in their [press] statement,” said Dennis Wamala, who works with a group called Icebreakers Uganda. “They did not come out in any way to say this bill is wrong.”
What surprises me is that Engle and TheCall seriously thought that this slight of hand in not actively promoting the bill itself but rather condemning homosexuality as morally corrosive and then praising Uganda's defense of "traditional values", would convince anyone that Engle's fostering of "TheCall Uganda" and his presence at the event did not amount to an endorsement of the legislation or make him complicit.

I am also particularly chilled by the statement that Engle makes wherein he says that Uganda has become "ground zero" for this so-called culture war, therein invoking the notion that homosexuality is a Western import into Uganda. This is precisely the language that LGBT groups and human rights organizations warned against when Engle first announced he would be going to Uganda for this event.

One notes that not only did Engle use this opportunity to fan the flames of anti-gay animus in Uganda, which his weak protest against violence can not mask, he also chose to take a swipe at the U.N. and UNICEF too, the latter being a charitable organization that has done vital work in Uganda by providing emergency assistance to thousands after natural disasters such as recent landslides and flooding, while, on a more local level, trying to get children back to school in Uganda's war torn regions and most recently helping to facilitate a girls education movement to further help vulnerable children in Uganda.

By accusing UNICEF of trying to push an agenda, Enlge has risked turning people away from a vital resource and lifeline, and it is precisely this kind of scaremongering that makes voicing explicit support for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009 redundant; it is enough for Engle to just throw around inflammatory rhetoric because such notions add to the climate of fear in Uganda and rouse support for such extreme measures as the Anti-Homosexuality Bill in a far more effective way.

Through his actions, Engle may have reignited the fuse on the ideological bomb that was planted last year when other radical American fundamentalists traveled to Uganda and hosted their seminar on "Exposing the Homosexual Agenda." This became the driving force behind the "Kill the Gays" legislation to begin with. Now Engle has perpetuated and given new life to this message whether he intended to or not. All that remains is to see just how much damage this event has been done, all this coming at a time when there was some small hope that support for the bill might be fading.

However, what seems clear is that the only person that Lou Engle is kidding when it comes to the effect that his preaching on homosexuality and "traditional values" will have on tensions in Uganda, is Lou Engle himself.

As such, pro-equality faith leaders and LGBT rights supporters have created a Facebook group through which people can stay informed on "TheCall Uganda" events and organization. You can join the group by going here. Alternatively, you can follow them on Twitter by going here.

The Call and all of their extremist allies, other Christians that support or refuse to oppose them are all of the ones giving Christianity a bad name.

Those people will not stop untill their brand of Christianity rules the world, which means that once the GLBT's are gone, then all other religions will be their next target and then the other Christians that do not toe their line.

Can you say "executed for heresy"? Stand up against them or face that potential reality, because that is what they are promoting for Uganda, as a first step.



You are beginning to sound like a broken record with your constant Christian bashing.

In the first place I have no control over what my own Government decides to do, let alone who Uganda might decide to invite within its borders.

Secondly, from your own reported post above on this thread, he has not made any illegal statement, he has expressed an opinion which he is quite entitled to do, as long as it doesn't break the law.

Thirdly, he could have expressed this exact same opinion back in your country. Where your Nation's First Amendment right of freedom of speech would have guaranteed him the freedom to do so.

Fourthly, the ordinary, law-abiding Christian has no more control over an expressed opinion, however strange than you yourself do over other Pagans or their beliefs, opinions or practices.

If you wish to remove an individual's right to express their opinion, you might start lobbying the politicians in your own country to repeal the First Amendment to your Constitution.

I personally don't think you'll have much success, but then it is so much easier to have a bigoted rant against ordinary Christians.

It would be rather like me blaming you for the verbal utterances of a patient in one of Florida's mental hospitals.

If you like, I could send a strongly worded letter to The Times newspaper, saying,"Uganda, you've been very naughty, now don't let it happen again". Will that suffice, or should I just go ahead and declare war on them?

[TaylorMade]

Egad, Falcon! All this apology and defensiveness before you even tell people what it is they're going to crucify you for?? That's no way to share information and get people on your side, man!
And "those Christians" don't particularly have a public opinion problem with their religion. It's us pagans who are looked at askance, dear.

Somehow, I don't think calling people "you Christians" and telling them what they have to do to save their image problem is going to garner you much support.

I dunno...the whole tone of this argument just sounds so depressingly...familiar. Next, I suppose I'll hear that if I don't stand with you then I'm against equal rights for all.


I don't look at pagans weird.

One of my favorite people is a Norse Heathen/Asatru. Maybe it's because we share politics AND an orientation. . .(We're both bisexual and lean libertarian/right) but if I didn't have my Christian background and faith, I'd probably convert because of the positivity of his ... witness . I respect him. He's fiery and whimsical. . . I love reading his facebook wall, catching up with him online...

I'd better stop e-slobbering. He probably can feel it where he's at.

"Honey, why is my computer screen so wet?!"

*Taylor*

[tenni]

Falcon
I wonder if you have notice other poster's reaction to your words rather than the words that you wanted them to pay attention to? You may feel persecuted or defensive for something that maybe is not needed.

It might be best for us to recognize that Engle is an extremist using the term Christian. He is no more Christian than Osama Bin Laden is Islamic. Both are extremists and twist a religion so that it supports their radical thoughts and beliefs. If homosexuality is an abomination as one Ugandan government official states that is equivalent to crying for a jihad to kill. Both are misusing language to support their misplaced extremism. I do agree with the author when the author questions why Engle did not come out opposing the proposed death penalty for gays in Uganda. He was on the stage. Being on the stage at such an event without opposing the law is showing support for this government's proposed law.

[FalconAngel]

Heresy? I'm definitely guilty, now I dare you to do anything about it! I am also a terrible sinner on a number of levels. And a heathen to boot!:tongue:

Hey, Jason. I live for heresy, coming from a long line of boat-rockers.


Thing is though, Uganda might be the only place these wacko's can get any traction. Its easy to sway a government that only barely exists. In most of the developed world proposing these kinds of laws would get a person fitted with one of those special vests with the long arms that tie in the back and packed away to the padded room.

Actually, it is slowly gaining traction in quite a few places; mostly in 3rd world countries, and the Arab world has similar, or worse, problems from Islam and with Sharia laws.

And let us not forget that some of these things are still very strongly supported around the country by the same types of folks that are behind the "kill the Gays" bill; some of whom would have no qualms about committing violence against GLBT people under the guise of "God says so", then using that as (at least part of) a defense in court.

Hitler did the world a favor by teaching us about what can happen when complacency takes hold. The Jews haven't forgotten that lesson and neither should any of us.

[FalconAngel]

Egad, Falcon! All this apology and defensiveness before you even tell people what it is they're going to crucify you for?? That's no way to share information and get people on your side, man!

Considering how many times that I have been accused of Christian bashing for pointing out the facts, I think that I am entitled to a small, preemptive, disclaimer.:tong:



And "those Christians" don't particularly have a public opinion problem with their religion. It's us pagans who are looked at askance, dear.

Maybe not, but they are getting one, since so many include all Christians when discussing the extremist Christians.


Somehow, I don't think calling people "you Christians" and telling them what they have to do to save their image problem is going to garner you much support.

Well, clearly, they have not been paying attention to the facts and realities of staying silent when the tyrants are amongst their own. If they have been programmed to not take action, then they won't; even if the end result will hurt them as well.

How many times have we heard the phrase "ugly American" applied to all of us by foreign nationals who have only seen that type of American? Many of us are not that type, but we have to live with the stygma. Same idea, except applied to religious doctrine and response to it.


I dunno...the whole tone of this argument just sounds so depressingly...familiar.

Yeah, but history repeats itself so often these days.


Next, I suppose I'll hear that if I don't stand with you then I'm against equal rights for all.

No. I don't see things in black and white like that. But I do expect you, being Pagan, to understand that there are repercussions, for good or ill, involved whether one takes a stand or not.

I will not be a dead lion, nor will I be a live sheep.

I will be a live lion.
The food is better quality at the top of the food chain.:bigrin:

[Bluebiyou]

Golly Falcon, all you do is bash good christians!
:)
Just teasing my friend.
While Christianity is not the first organization (religious, political, or other) to do terrible harm whilst preaching lofty goals, it won't be the last (speaking as a Catholic). But's "God's will" has had such terrible potential for so many religions. And religion is often a great unifying belief system to be used by the aspirations of the politically ambitious.



...In the past, Engle, founder of TheCall ministries, used his platform to call for "Christian martyrdom" against abortion and has even preached that gays and lesbians are possessed by demons.
...
Before arriving here last week, Mr. Engle came out with a statement condemning the harsh penalties proposed in the bill, and said that his ministry could not support it. But when he took the stage late on Sunday afternoon, with Ugandan politicians and pastors looking on, he praised the country’s “courage” and “righteousness” in promoting the bill.
...
“NGOs, the U.N., Unicef, they are all coming in here and promoting an agenda,” Mr. Engle said, referring to nongovernmental organizations. “Today, America is losing its religious freedom. We are trying to restrain an agenda that is sweeping through the education system. Uganda has become ground zero.”
...
In addition to homosexuality, Engle preached against abortion and child sacrifice and repeatedly praised Uganda for its piety. “I think that Uganda is beyond the U.S. in their stand for righteousness,” Engle commented to reporters in a brief exchange on the way from the stage to his car, stipulating that he didn’t mean the anti-gay bill...
...
Noteworthy is the fact that Ethics and Integrity Minister James Nsaba Buturo took to the stage shortly after Engle to forcefully push the bill, saying that, “We must tell the whole world that Uganda will not accept that nonsense that says homosexuality is a human right, it is an abomination.”

...
I am also particularly chilled by the statement that Engle makes wherein he says that Uganda has become "ground zero" for this so-called culture war, therein invoking the notion that homosexuality is a Western import into Uganda. This is precisely the language that LGBT groups and human rights organizations warned against when Engle first announced he would be going to Uganda for this event.


These efforts/comments reflect a firm grasp of how Hitler came to power; not to mention how the world stood by...
...appeal to the lowest common denominator...
...demonize a social subgroup into responsibility for present problems...
soon to come:
...exploit wealth of demonized subgroups...
We need new mandatory classes in school to identify these people and their efforts.
Still, this is Uganda, home to Idi Amin (the old farts remember this character), who only a scant 3 decades ago used to eat flesh from his defeated foes, among other interesting traits. Let us also not forget that he lived to a ripe old age of 78 in exile.
On an interesting side note, the evidence-for is gaining and evidence-against is decreasing: Hitler's fleeing and living exile in South America at least some time. Just like Pope Innocent VIII, Heinrich Kramer, and hundreds and thousands of others, these bastards not only do their evil, but seem to get clean away with it. Exceptions to 'karma'.

[FalconAngel]

Golly Falcon, all you do is bash good christians!
:)
Just teasing my friend.
While Christianity is not the first organization (religious, political, or other) to do terrible harm whilst preaching lofty goals, it won't be the last (speaking as a Catholic). But's "God's will" has had such terrible potential for so many religions. And religion is often a great unifying belief system to be used by the aspirations of the politically ambitious.



These efforts/comments reflect a firm grasp of how Hitler came to power; not to mention how the world stood by...
...appeal to the lowest common denominator...
...demonize a social subgroup into responsibility for present problems...
soon to come:
...exploit wealth of demonized subgroups...
We need new mandatory classes in school to identify these people and their efforts.
Still, this is Uganda, home to Idi Amin (the old farts remember this character), who only a scant 3 decades ago used to eat flesh from his defeated foes, among other interesting traits. Let us also not forget that he lived to a ripe old age of 78 in exile.
On an interesting side note, the evidence-for is gaining and evidence-against is decreasing: Hitler's fleeing and living exile in South America at least some time. Just like Pope Innocent VIII, Heinrich Kramer, and hundreds and thousands of others, these bastards not only do their evil, but seem to get clean away with it. Exceptions to 'karma'.

Well, as I have said; Christians are not the only ones, but in this country, they are the predominant ones that do things like that. In Arab countries, it is Islam that does it.

I firmly believe that fundamentalist leaders are to blame and, as stated before, by myself and others, history has shown that silence is an ineffective weapon against tyrants, no matter where their power is based; be it religion or politics.

The Call is acting through both religion and politics. A fearfully dangerous combination, to be sure.

[FalconAngel]

Falcon
I wonder if you have notice other poster's reaction to your words rather than the words that you wanted them to pay attention to? You may feel persecuted or defensive for something that maybe is not needed.

Actually, many have come right out, in other threads, and specifically said that I was "Christian-bashing". That is not my perception, but their statements.

But if they think that I am Christian-bashing, then they should hear from the "fluff bunny" Pagans that think that all of the world's woes (not just the ones that have been demonstrably caused by Christianity) are because of Christians.
Those folks have yet to come to grips with the reality of all religions.

So a couple of paragraphs of preemptive clarification can save an entire thread of having to clarify.

[Pasadenacpl2]

How is that strategy workin' out for ya'?

Pasa

[tenni]

My point Falcon is not that you are "Christian bashing" although you may very well be covering all with the same clothe. If you continue to do that then yes you may be bashing an entire group. What these people are promoting in Uganda is extremism and crazy radicalism. It exists in Islam. Much of Christianity and Islam religious philosophy does not support this radical extremist interpretation. In other words, not all Christians would support killing gays nor would all Muslims. Instead of referring to Christians as you seem to, why not refer to them as "extremist, crazy radicals" and the leave the label of them being Christian or Muslim off?

[FalconAngel]

How is that strategy workin' out for ya'?

Pasa

Actually, it's working better than the previous strategy of defending myself after the fact.

[FalconAngel]

My point Falcon is not that you are "Christian bashing" although you may very well be covering all with the same clothe.

So it is more important to you that the truth be ignored to protect the feelings of those that do the things? Am I understanding you correctly?

Sorry, but when one forgets the past, they repeat its crimes and errors; and our society has been too often screwed up by that kind of thinking.

Stating the facts is a far more socially useful act than trying to cover up the facts, and less troublesome when the facts being hidden get brought up later.



If you continue to do that then yes you may be bashing an entire group.

As I have always said, and that fact ignored, I have yet to bash all Christians, but I have pointed out that the extremists are the ones in questions. Based on that, I am "bashing" a subgroup.


What these people are promoting in Uganda is extremism and crazy radicalism. It exists in Islam. Much of Christianity and Islam religious philosophy does not support this radical extremist interpretation.

Something that I have been saying all along by differentiating the right wing Christians. But I guess that all many of you see is the word "Christian" and ignore the words "right wing" or "extremist" that precede it.


In other words, not all Christians would support killing gays nor would all Muslims. Instead of referring to Christians as you seem to, why not refer to them as "extremist, crazy radicals" and the leave the label of them being Christian or Muslim off?

But they are Christian or Muslim. What part of that fact have you been ignoring?
If you defend the actions of the extremists by not calling them what they are, then you are, passively, supporting them.

When they commit their vile acts under the name of their religion, then ignoring that fact and not stating that their religion is their reason for doing it just does one thing; it politicizes the facts and is, by that action, a lie.

Perhaps lying to everyone about the truth and facts helps the political life of a group, but it does nothing to prevent them from repeating their mistakes over and over again. It is happening now and still, the Christian community has yet to stand up and say "ENOUGH!! You people do not represent Christianity. You represent hatred and un-Christian values!!"

You all sit back and stay silent. Why? Are you all in fear of repercussions if you take that kind of stand against them? If not then why silently allow them to continue unopposed because of your silence?

Don't tell me that you oppose them.
Unify and tell them that you oppose them.
Do it as a united front and make it loud.
Staying silent to them and to the public, you may as well rage against the storm. The end result will be the same.

Learn the lesson that the Jews learned from Hitler and the Soviet Union:
"If you say and do nothing against those types of people, in your own religion/political party/government, then you are supporting the crimes that they commit."

So don't complain about my statements of fact. I would rather see those facts a thing of the past. So take a stand to correct the problem and make those facts a thing of the past. I don't see any Christians doing that, yet.

But not to worry; when the right wing Christians turns their sights to moderate Christians, as they have done before in the history of Christianity (and some do currently), you can try to stop them then. Even though it will be too late by that time.

[Long Duck Dong]

in simple terms, you want christians to fight battles that you believe they should fight...... and you are annoyed that they perfer not to fight battles that they have no reason to fight......

did the thought that they are not fighting a war that doesn't need to be fought, ever cross your mind ???? there have been centuries of inter denominational fighting..... and now you want it to resurface again ????

sighs.....

they say pics spoke louder than words...... maybe the following pics will speak more to you than anything I type

[FalconAngel]

in simple terms, you want christians to fight battles that you believe they should fight...... and you are annoyed that they perfer not to fight battles that they have no reason to fight......

Get over yourself, Duck. You do not understand the issue in the least.

And, since you clearly do not understand, I will put it in simple terms so that you can understand it;

I want Christians to stop crying "Christian bashing" every time that news of what their own people do gets out and someone points it out. I want Christians to stop crying "Christian bashing" every time that their actions are responded to in kind.

Silencing me, and others, that point it out does not fix the problem.

If they do not wish to feel that they are being "bashed", then they should fix the problem. We Wiccans and most Pagans do. And we have done a lot to undo the 1400 years of anti-Pagan propaganda created by Christians.

If the Christians cannot, or will not, fix their little problems, then perhaps there is something to what is being said about them.

Like Islam, Christians will "fight" amongst themselves over their various differences, but let one of them, of any sect, do something stupid/illegal/prejudicial/immoral, then they band together in spite of their differences, to protect that person/group of fellow Christians.


did the thought that they are not fighting a war that doesn't need to be fought, ever cross your mind ????

It doesn't need to be fought? Are you completely ignorant? Have you ever considered the ramifications of what you are saying here: your complete ignorance of the facts?

How about this one? It isn't a war that is needing to be fought, but more like policing their own.

What makes Christians too special to be expected to police their own religion, like other religions are willing and capable of doing?

But the war that was started by Christians has never stopped being fought. For more than 1900 years, it has been going on. Since before the fall of Rome, Christianity has allowed it's leaders to make it a religion about power and money for it's leadership and using a gullible, or forced conversion populace to attain and keep that goal alive.

You never have Pagans, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists or any other religion going door to door trying to drum up converts. Have you ever thought about why they have too fill the pews and collect tithes?
Clearly, you have not. Had you done so, then you would know better that to go down that path.

But I digress.

Christians don't want to be piled into the same category as the radical right wing.

How do you do that? Simple; you publicly and clearly distance yourself from them. They are not doing that, so they have to deal with it until they care enough about their own religion to stand up against those same radicals in such a way that all know where they stand.

Like I said before; Don't tell me that you don't agree with the radicals, tell EVERYONE that you don't agree with the radicals.


there have been centuries of inter denominational fighting..... and now you want it to resurface again ????

Yes, there have been, with plenty of actual war amongst all religions that came in contact with each other. And by all reports in the news, Christianity/Islam and their leaders are the only ones that have not evolved very far beyond those days.

That is not my fault, it is theirs. I guess heavily (politically motivated) edited doctrine ain't all that it's cracked up to be, is it?

But we are really talking about a group policing their own, or in this case not policing their own.
We are talking about Christians. Islam even faires better in this area than Christianity does.
And all it takes is for mainstream Christians, that extremist Christian groups do not represent, to stand up and say, in a loud unified voice (through public statements from Christian interdenominational councils), that those extremists are not representative of them. But that requires too much of them.

If the Muslims can do it, then why can't the Christians? Think about that question, very seriously.
Why is it that Christians won't do what the Muslims do?
Both have the same issues, as far as sects, so why can't Christians do what the Muslims can and have done about publicly segregating their extremist sects from mainstream Islam?

I guess that it requires too much effort to do that, though. If I am wrong, then why do they allow themselves to be counted amongst them through their silence, and sometimes, support?

I'm guessing that you didn't learn the lessons of the Holocaust, either.

And the worst part is that some of those Christian extremists have already begun turning on other Christians (started almost 30 years ago).
And since all of Christianity has stayed silent about that and not taken some kind of action to distance themselves from them, then they should expect no sympathy or support for themselves when those same extremists focus on them.

When one defends one's own internal enemy with either silence or excuses, then one should not expect sympathy from others. And these extremist groups, being specifically discussed here are Christian.

I am not the bad guy for pointing it out; they are the bad guys for not taking the appropriate actions.

Maybe, just maybe, people are tired of the excuses from Christians as to why they say nothing about these groups, or try to prevent the damage that they do to their own religion. I know that there are some Christians that are tired of it, but attacking me for pointing the issues out, does nothing to fix the problem.

But then, silencing the message is far easier, albeit short term, than actually making the effort to fix the actual problem (long term and potentially permanent).

Hey Christians!!
People do not care if they are a different sect than "yours". All Christians are Christian and that is why all Christians get the brunt of the hostility from others when a group of Christians says or does stupid things like saying "the (insert natural disaster here) was God's punishment for...", "God hates fags", and other equally mindless things



sighs.....

they say pics spoke louder than words...... maybe the following pics will speak more to you than anything I type

Not really. Not in defense of your misleading "avoid the real issue" arguments You pictures are just speaking, very loudly, that you do not understand the real issue at all. As I said before; you do not understand and would rather fix blame on the messenger than actually work to fix the problem.

It is whining and complaining about something that one can fix, but does nothing to correct. Only Christians are responsible for fixing their religion's issues. I am not Christian; Muslims are not Christian; Hindus are not Christian; Buddhists are not Christian........you get the idea (I hope), therefore Christians are the ONLY ONES responsible for fixing their internal issues, of which groups like The Call, WBC, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts and other extremist Christians are part.

If they don't want to feel the brunt of the negative things that those Christians do, then they need to do something, anything legal, to correct it and make the bad press a thing of the past. Their leadership will do nothing without the congregations banding together and segregating those radical groups, publicly, from the rest of Christianity.

Don't want to fix the problem? Fine by the rest of the world. We will just keep "bashing" Christians that repeatedly make the newsworthy offenses.

Only Christians can fix the problems that create and perpetuate their perceived "Christian bashing" (most of the world calls those reports news).

Remember that it isn't bashing when it is demonstrably true and factual.

[tenni]

"Now before all you Christians accuse me of Christian bashing, remember that this has been reported in the news." "The bad press against Christians is created by their own religion's members."

Falcon
These sentences were the first that you used. What I did not give sufficient weight to was your later reference to was "So either accept that you are allowing people like that, members of the WBC, Televangelists, The Call and other extremist groups to speak unopposed by the reasonable and intelligent members of Christianity, or stand up as a whole and publicly and loudly oppose them and their policies of hate." Now, I may not have been the only one to pay more attention to your first few sentences than your later statement.



[QUOTE=FalconAngel;167555]So it is more important to you that the truth be ignored to protect the feelings of those that do the things? Am I understanding you correctly?

No, I don't think that I referred to the truth in my statements but I do think that you did not convey to me that you are separating the radical extremist fundamentalist...or I failed to comprehend what you wrote. I have read sentences from you where you blanketed all Muslims and terrorism together. I remember it and pointed it out to you at the time. No, I could not recall which thread. So, I don't think that we are too far off condemning these radicals whether they are Christian or Muslim. Let us not stereotype all Christians and all Muslims as being radical though. That is my point.

"Something that I have been saying all along by differentiating the right wing Christians. But I guess that all many of you see is the word "Christian" and ignore the words "right wing" or "extremist" that precede it."


Ok. I see and understand your position now but somehow I did not understand you separating the two.

Now as far as being right winged and Christian, I wonder if calling them what they are rather than right winged. They are extremists and radicals and not all right winged politically believing people believe in killing gays. They may not approve of their sexual orientation and some may be more inclined to lack tolerance but kill?


I think that I basically agree with you though. I would ask you if you hear in your country of the many Muslims, Imans and scholars objecting to the radicals and extremists? We do hear the mainstream Muslims reject the extremists radicals. Many Canadian Imans wrote a fatwa against these extremists Muslims. I would agree that I am not hearing many mainstream Christians object to the killing of gays but I suspect that the Pope would not condone such actions. I don't know if he is being silent on this issue in Uganda though.

[Darkside2009]

Hmmmm! Feed the paranoia or let the crack-pots of this World drown in their own delusions.

To try and encapsulate It for you, Christians believe that God created Mankind and gave them laws and a moral code to follow.

However he also saw fit to give Mankind free will.

The US also saw fit to grant it's Citizens, Freedom of Speech and even went so far as to enshrine that freedom in the US Constitution.

Now the sane among you will be under the misapprehension that freedom grants you the right to voice your opinion, however right; wrong; sensible; stupid; or downright crack-pot, just as long as you don't break the law.

Everyone has an opinion right? Wrong! Henceforth all opinions must be vetted by the Cultural Taliban to ensure they comply with the list of Approved Opinions issued by the Grand Poobah of Florida.

Dissent is not an option. Applications for tar and feathers can be made to the Central Committee until such time as a Gulag is built and opened near you.

[void()]

"In the past, Engle, founder of TheCall ministries, used his platform to call for "Christian martyrdom" against abortion and has even preached that gays and lesbians are possessed by demons."

My boyfriend is a Quaker for Saint Pete's sake. And I'm bi, guess no demons got us.

[FalconAngel]

Most of what you say needs no further clarification or corraction by me, since you are getting it.

However we need to be clearer on the below points that you brought up;

Now as far as being right winged and Christian, I wonder if calling them what they are rather than right winged.

Unfortunately, most people do not realize that the extremists are from the right wing. So lumping them all together is perfectly appropriate, since the right wing and the extremists are, more often than not, one and the same.

They share the same beliefs beyond basic religious doctrine (in it's most scientifically backward versions) and both are more than happy to harm, in some way or another, those that oppose their doctrine of hate, even (eventually) other, more moderate Christians.


They are extremists and radicals and not all right winged politically believing people believe in killing gays. They may not approve of their sexual orientation and some may be more inclined to lack tolerance but kill?

Maybe all of them don't believe in killing Gays, but the vast majority of the ones that oppose the killing of gays are willing to stay silent against it.

That harkens to psycho-societal acceptance issues that I am sure that LDD would be willing to explain in great detail.




I think that I basically agree with you though. I would ask you if you hear in your country of the many Muslims, Imans and scholars objecting to the radicals and extremists?

Actually, after 9-11, there were a few that made the news, both from here in the US as well as a few in the Middle East, stating that what the Muslim terrorists believe is anathemic to what Islam actually believes, as a correct course of action, in modern times.


We do hear the mainstream Muslims reject the extremists radicals. Many Canadian Imans wrote a fatwa against these extremists Muslims.

I hadn't heard anything on the ones in Canada, but I had seen the reports of the other ones. But then, Canadian news stories don't always make our national news. Shame that those didn't make it on our national network news.


I would agree that I am not hearing many mainstream Christians object to the killing of gays but I suspect that the Pope would not condone such actions. I don't know if he is being silent on this issue in Uganda though.

Actually, if it had been Pope Paul II, there probably would have been plenty of condemnation from the Vatican on that issue. Pope Paul II was a Pope that other religious groups and more humanist groups could sit down and talk to, but Benedict is more fundamentalist than the that and his dedication to moderation is........questionable, as far as I have seen.

[FalconAngel]

Now the sane among you will be under the misapprehension that freedom grants you the right to voice your opinion, however right; wrong; sensible; stupid; or downright crack-pot, just as long as you don't break the law.

Since you don't live here and were not mandated to learn about the US Constitution, you really cannot have the same grasp of it that those of us that live under it have. It is NOT a misapprehension at all. It is fact. Sadly, you don't, and probably won't ever, understand that.


Everyone has an opinion right? Wrong! Henceforth all opinions must be vetted by the Cultural Taliban to ensure they comply with the list of Approved Opinions issued by the Grand Poobah of Florida.

If that was a crack against me, then I will ignore it as nothing but an ignorant statement made by just another hemoroid (assholes actually serve a purpose).

As far as opinions, there are things that those of us who look at history a little more deeply than just names, dates and places, see that the rest do not. We see the patterns of society and how things happen when societies do certain things.

We can see the train wreck coming while everyone else refuses to even see the train coming, let alone the wreck waiting to happen.

Since Bush jr. (aka the boy who would be king) took office, the US was seen and described in the news as the "New Roman Empire". Some of us saw that coming as far back as the mid 1980's. Some of us were paying attention, long before you think that you were.


Dissent is not an option.

Really? You don't know our history so well as you think you do. The United States was built on dissent It is in our nation's foundation, like mortar between bricks. Had it not been for dissent, the US would not even exist.

We need dissent to maintain our national health......now, more than ever, since the War of the Rebellion.

So when people dissent against the government's incompetence regarding curbing religious power-seeking, failure to protect our borders and the illegal "Patriot Act" then we are doing our patriotic and constitutionally protected right and mandate to dissent against those wrongs.

So get over yourself.


Applications for tar and feathers can be made to the Central Committee until such time as a Gulag is built and opened near you.

That statement sounds more paranoid than I have ever been, or could be.

Actually, according to some conspiracy theorists, they have been building massive camps for just such a thing as detaining dissenting citizens. But I don't buy into hazy suspicions based on unverifiable coincidence or shadow plots. I like evidence more than suspicion.

And my statements are based on the evidence of history, which shows how societies behave when they refuse to stand against the insidious deceptions of those who hunger for power. Christians have a long history of allowing tyrants to take power in their religion's name.

As long as tyranny is tolerable, people will tolerate a tyrant's iron fist.

[Long Duck Dong]

Get over yourself, Duck. You do not understand the issue in the least.

And, since you clearly do not understand, I will put it in simple terms so that you can understand it;

I want Christians to stop crying "Christian bashing" every time that news of what their own people do gets out and someone points it out. I want Christians to stop crying "Christian bashing" every time that their actions are responded to in kind.

Silencing me, and others, that point it out does not fix the problem.

If they do not wish to feel that they are being "bashed", then they should fix the problem. We Wiccans and most Pagans do. And we have done a lot to undo the 1400 years of anti-Pagan propaganda created by Christians.

If the Christians cannot, or will not, fix their little problems, then perhaps there is something to what is being said about them.

Like Islam, Christians will "fight" amongst themselves over their various differences, but let one of them, of any sect, do something stupid/illegal/prejudicial/immoral, then they band together in spite of their differences, to protect that person/group of fellow Christians.



It doesn't need to be fought? Are you completely ignorant? Have you ever considered the ramifications of what you are saying here: your complete ignorance of the facts?

How about this one? It isn't a war that is needing to be fought, but more like policing their own.

What makes Christians too special to be expected to police their own religion, like other religions are willing and capable of doing?

But the war that was started by Christians has never stopped being fought. For more than 1900 years, it has been going on. Since before the fall of Rome, Christianity has allowed it's leaders to make it a religion about power and money for it's leadership and using a gullible, or forced conversion populace to attain and keep that goal alive.

You never have Pagans, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists or any other religion going door to door trying to drum up converts. Have you ever thought about why they have too fill the pews and collect tithes?
Clearly, you have not. Had you done so, then you would know better that to go down that path.

But I digress.

Christians don't want to be piled into the same category as the radical right wing.

How do you do that? Simple; you publicly and clearly distance yourself from them. They are not doing that, so they have to deal with it until they care enough about their own religion to stand up against those same radicals in such a way that all know where they stand.

Like I said before; Don't tell me that you don't agree with the radicals, tell EVERYONE that you don't agree with the radicals.



Yes, there have been, with plenty of actual war amongst all religions that came in contact with each other. And by all reports in the news, Christianity/Islam and their leaders are the only ones that have not evolved very far beyond those days.

That is not my fault, it is theirs. I guess heavily (politically motivated) edited doctrine ain't all that it's cracked up to be, is it?

But we are really talking about a group policing their own, or in this case not policing their own.
We are talking about Christians. Islam even faires better in this area than Christianity does.
And all it takes is for mainstream Christians, that extremist Christian groups do not represent, to stand up and say, in a loud unified voice (through public statements from Christian interdenominational councils), that those extremists are not representative of them. But that requires too much of them.

If the Muslims can do it, then why can't the Christians? Think about that question, very seriously.
Why is it that Christians won't do what the Muslims do?
Both have the same issues, as far as sects, so why can't Christians do what the Muslims can and have done about publicly segregating their extremist sects from mainstream Islam?

I guess that it requires too much effort to do that, though. If I am wrong, then why do they allow themselves to be counted amongst them through their silence, and sometimes, support?

I'm guessing that you didn't learn the lessons of the Holocaust, either.

And the worst part is that some of those Christian extremists have already begun turning on other Christians (started almost 30 years ago).
And since all of Christianity has stayed silent about that and not taken some kind of action to distance themselves from them, then they should expect no sympathy or support for themselves when those same extremists focus on them.

When one defends one's own internal enemy with either silence or excuses, then one should not expect sympathy from others. And these extremist groups, being specifically discussed here are Christian.

I am not the bad guy for pointing it out; they are the bad guys for not taking the appropriate actions.

Maybe, just maybe, people are tired of the excuses from Christians as to why they say nothing about these groups, or try to prevent the damage that they do to their own religion. I know that there are some Christians that are tired of it, but attacking me for pointing the issues out, does nothing to fix the problem.

But then, silencing the message is far easier, albeit short term, than actually making the effort to fix the actual problem (long term and potentially permanent).

Hey Christians!!
People do not care if they are a different sect than "yours". All Christians are Christian and that is why all Christians get the brunt of the hostility from others when a group of Christians says or does stupid things like saying "the (insert natural disaster here) was God's punishment for...", "God hates fags", and other equally mindless things




Not really. Not in defense of your misleading "avoid the real issue" arguments You pictures are just speaking, very loudly, that you do not understand the real issue at all. As I said before; you do not understand and would rather fix blame on the messenger than actually work to fix the problem.

It is whining and complaining about something that one can fix, but does nothing to correct. Only Christians are responsible for fixing their religion's issues. I am not Christian; Muslims are not Christian; Hindus are not Christian; Buddhists are not Christian........you get the idea (I hope), therefore Christians are the ONLY ONES responsible for fixing their internal issues, of which groups like The Call, WBC, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts and other extremist Christians are part.

If they don't want to feel the brunt of the negative things that those Christians do, then they need to do something, anything legal, to correct it and make the bad press a thing of the past. Their leadership will do nothing without the congregations banding together and segregating those radical groups, publicly, from the rest of Christianity.

Don't want to fix the problem? Fine by the rest of the world. We will just keep "bashing" Christians that repeatedly make the newsworthy offenses.

Only Christians can fix the problems that create and perpetuate their perceived "Christian bashing" (most of the world calls those reports news).

Remember that it isn't bashing when it is demonstrably true and factual.

1) I am a ex christian youth group leader and music group leader
2) I have attended many churchs services and church prayer groups
3) I learnt about christianity and how many different churchs see the issues as hand and why and how they react to it.....

the term christian bashing is based around your ignorance in blaming christians for not doing what you want them to do..... and your lack of understanding about the different christian faiths and churches

people that are extreme christians or christians with a chip on their shoulder are not generally connected to the christians that focus on god, missionary work, and community work......

its in the same way that christians are lumped in with the catholic church, yet many churches will tell you that society uses the catholic church as a example of christians....as the catholic church are controversial.... many churches you never heard about, are not controversial......

now sure, tell me once again that I know nothing..... and I am happy to know nothing.... but many churches act according to christs example..... the catholic church follows yours........

the example is simple.... christ taught to follow him, not focus on the world..... the catholic church teachs that they make the rules, on their terms, fuck the bible and fight everybody

now before you misunderstand my references towards the catholic church and why I have referred to it....I will explain it in little words

church is same as radical christian...not speak for every people, same as radical person, they not answer to or for every church, so no point in every church trying to shut up man when church not have right or ability to silence them

what you are actually saying, falcon,.... is for churchs to do the same dammed thing that the catholic church tried to do to other religions, faiths and beliefs.... but nowadays... its not kill them off, its deny them having a voice at all

I can not help but be amused by the fact you are now endorsing the same tactics used against many religions by the catholic church..... and if the catholic church had succeeded, you would not have a voice or a face.......
strange how you are vocal about a man being wrong for talking about silencing other people.... and the way you want it dealt with, is by having others silence the voices......

think about it falcon...... karma ???

[Long Duck Dong]

now, I speak from the point of view of churches such as assembly of god, elim, nativity, christian outreach center and many more

their focus is on the works of christ, and following in the path of christ, ....that was shown by their support of the civil union bill in nz, which was a law that legalised lgbt marriage..... something that went against the teachings of the old testament....

most christian churches preach the new testament and the 10 commandments as the path of christ and that we are to follow christ in our daily lives...
the teachings include that god may not agree with homosexuality, but god states, its for him to judge people, not for his children to judge others.....

asking churchs to police their own, is akin to asking them all to stand together and lay down the * law * according to a single * truth *.....
the same idea was tried by the american council of witches ( which imploded due to their inability to unite under a single law ) and even looking at the usa, which is a country of united states, that may live under one set of laws, but also self govern according to their own laws

the catholic church speaks for followers of christ..... but many many christians and churches do not have any contact or connection to the catholic church.... so when people hit out at christians, based around actions by the catholic church, many of the churchs do not defend themselves, as they are more focused on the teachings and works of christ, than entering into a war of words

in the book of revelations there are references that are reported to refer to the catholic church in the end times and how the catholic church is the * harlot * referred to in revelations....and how christ will return and cast down the harlot and her beast......
many christians and churchs use that same way of thinking in regards to the various * voices of christ * such as engle...

the interesting thing to notice is that the one country with the largest collection of people like the wbc and engle is the us, as its a country that protects its citizens while they spout off their speechs etc...... and in other countries, the largest missionary / charity work organization....is the catholic church......
yet the largest number of christians and christ followers, are not catholic in denomination nor do they attend church, or get involved in wars between churchs or beliefs, they merely follow christ

while I am a ex christian, I am a person that follows a way that is similar to wicca.... and my teachings are that wars are best started and followed by people of that specific faith and belief...... and I find it very interesting that a wiccan person is telling religious people how they should live their lives and act ...when that person doesn't even belong to the christian faith...... its a bit like engle telling people in another country that they are doing the right thing for their country, when he doesn't live there

[rissababynta]

Hello...my name is Marissa and I have been a practicing Pagan for more than half of my life. I have my opinions and I have many things I disagree with, but I do my damndest to mind my business and let people do what they want to do with their own lives. I live my happy little Pagan life...I have Pagan friends...I have Christian friends...I have friends where I can't even PROUNOUNCE their religion...and we all love each other and we are all happy people...

Just felt like throwing that out there, just in case the Pagans here start getting flamed for all the wrong shit they do too...

*steps back into the shadows to watch everyone concern themselves with what everyone else is/should be doing instead of focusing on their own lives and happiness*

:tongue::bigrin:

[tenni]

Falcon wrote
"Since you don't live here and were not mandated to learn about the US Constitution, you really cannot have the same grasp of it that those of us that live under it have. It is NOT a misapprehension at all. It is fact. Sadly, you don't, and probably won't ever, understand that."


Fascinating how some of you Yanks have this impression about your constitution. Sorry Bud but its a flawed document....lol It had some good principles for its time though. To think that those outside of your country can not grasp the document is somewhat egocentric. We understand it. We see it for what it is. We may not understand all of the details of your electorial process but we understand your constitution. It doesn't take a brain surgeon philosopher to do that.

[Darkside2009]

It's alright Rissa, like you, most people understand that other people have multiple opinions on every subject under the Sun.

As such they have the right to voice those opinions, however wise, foolish, inane or downright stupid they are.

Most people who hear an opinion on any subject will just filter it through their intelligence and common-sense and decide whether it is an opinion they need to pay any heed to.

Most people will either think, good idea, or nonsense, discard it and get on with their life.

Some people, it seems, lack that critical faculty and feel outraged at whatever stupid ideas or opinions they hear voiced.

Not only that, but they feel the need to berate those that don't agree with them in a vociferous manner infinitem ad nauseum.

I think everyone on this site understands that he hates Christians and Christianity in general. His interminal rants on the subject expose him for the bigot he is.

In contrast, I don't recall any Christian on this site, castigating his or your religious beliefs as a Pagan, this despite the fact that we might not share or agree with them.

On most days I just laugh at his ridiculous ramblings and his pompous assertion of his own insight into politics, religion and history, when day after day he exhibits such a feeble grasp.

On other days I feel genuinely sorry for him, what it must feel like to live in that paranoid, delusional little world he has created for himself.

Still he is entitled to his opinion for whatever value it is worth. I just wish he would extend the same curtesy to everyone else.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I'll note that we haven't been discussing the original topic since very early in the thread. So, I'd say that Falcon Angel's approach has failed. Gee, whooda thunk that continually harping on a religious group would result in not getting anything accomplished?

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Falcon wrote
"Since you don't live here and were not mandated to learn about the US Constitution, you really cannot have the same grasp of it that those of us that live under it have. It is NOT a misapprehension at all. It is fact. Sadly, you don't, and probably won't ever, understand that."


Fascinating how some of you Yanks have this impression about your constitution. Sorry Bud but its a flawed document....lol It had some good principles for its time though. To think that those outside of your country can not grasp the document is somewhat egocentric. We understand it. We see it for what it is. We may not understand all of the details of your electorial process but we understand your constitution. It doesn't take a brain surgeon philosopher to do that.

What's funny is that Darkside was making fun of Falcon for essentially acting like no one's opinion mattered but his. Falcon apparently thought Darkside was serious, and attacked his point as if it were. Then you did the same thing to Falcon.

Hilarious.

Pasa

[Annika L]

I'll note that we haven't been discussing the original topic since very early in the thread. So, I'd say that Falcon Angel's approach has failed. Gee, whooda thunk that continually harping on a religious group would result in not getting anything accomplished?

Pasa

I think I said *I* thunk that.

[tenni]

Really??????????
So confusing :bigrin:
What ever happened to the days when when people spoke their mind and meant it. Howz a guy suppose to determine satire in a political forum?... I caught some of darkeside's satire but....You mean Falcon doesn't believe that his constitution is the best of the best:rolleyes:


What's funny is that Darkside was making fun of Falcon for essentially acting like no one's opinion mattered but his. Falcon apparently thought Darkside was serious, and attacked his point as if it were. Then you did the same thing to Falcon.

Hilarious.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

No...I mean that Darkside was making of fun of Falcon. Falcon missed the satire from Darkside and responded as if Darkside made a straight comment. You continued by responding to Falcon.

Falcon does think our constitution is the best of the best. It is one point I happen to agree with him on. That Darkside was pointing out that Falcon doesn't really act like he believes in freedom of speech is the irony.

Pasa

[FalconAngel]

1) I am a ex christian youth group leader and music group leader
2) I have attended many churchs services and church prayer groups
3) I learnt about christianity and how many different churchs see the issues as hand and why and how they react to it.....

And that has to do with your spineless unwillingness to stand up and say "Those Christians DO NOT represent us" how?

Fact is that you are a coward. You have proven it in other threads where the courage to stand up and be counted against the wrong has failed you in both word and action.


the term christian bashing is based around your ignorance in blaming christians for not doing what you want them to do.....

You are absolutely correct.

I should be ashamed of myself for expecting Christians to be responsible for their own lack of willingness to speak out against those within their own groups that support and promote hatred.

If I were doing the same thing to other groups, the Christians would be applauding me, the hypocrites.


and your lack of understanding about the different christian faiths and churches

Again, you are right. Having been raised Catholic (mother's side of the family) and Lutheran (father's side of the family) with having often gone to church with my cousins (mostly Methodist and Episcopalian), how could I POSSIBLY understand Christianity and it's multitude of sects?

God damn, you are stupid for making that assumption. Do you not know that Christianity is responsible for most of the people that become Pagan?
Why do you think that we know more about the Bible than most Christians do?



people that are extreme christians or christians with a chip on their shoulder are not generally connected to the christians that focus on god, missionary work, and community work......

And you are telling me why? Like I said before, I already know that, but, once again, you are not capable of getting it.

So don't tell ME about it, tell everyone else, because the rest of the world sees that all of the rest of the Christians (not the extremists) are not saying anything against those extremist Christians, instead just staying silent and, by so doing, letting yourself be counted amongst those that even your own people claim to oppose.

Come on. You claim to be a licensed councilor and you don't even know that little bit of social psychology?

I am not saying that you are not on my side, but the silence tells everyone that you are not even on your own side.

But hey. If you want the cancer within your own religion to grow, then please, by all means, let the extremists continue to advertise their hate and bile continue to be used as a representation of what your religion is "really" all about.

Just see how the court of public opinion feels about Christianity after it has gotten so far out of hand that your religion and it's followers (the ones that are not extremists) suffers the repercussions.

Even you should be able to see that train wreck coming your way.


its in the same way that christians are lumped in with the catholic church, yet many churches will tell you that society uses the catholic church as a example of christians....as the catholic church are controversial.... many churches you never heard about, are not controversial......

As someone supposedly trained in some level of professional psychology, you cannot figure out why? It gives one pause to consider your claims of proper professional psychological training, if you do not understand that. It's basic psych 101, for fuck's sake.

And actually, there are few "churches" that I have not heard about, read about and met up with. Remember that I am Wiccan and, as such, are very cautious about what some of them do and say, as well as being very thorough about which ones represent the largest threats to both our own religious rights as well as the rights of others.

Now why would anyone pile all of the Christians together, based on the actions of just a very loud, offensive vocal few?

How about this reason;
The ones amongst them, that the vocal and offensive few never get vocally and correctly put in their place by the silent majority that are too afraid of being booted out by standing up and being counted against the offenders.

That is the usual reason in religion, particularly monotheism and there is a historical precedent in Christianity in particular. I know of any number of things that various Churches/Christian groups have done to remove some of their own from their groups/congregations. Most of them so superficial as to be laughable.



now sure, tell me once again that I know nothing..... and I am happy to know nothing.... but many churches act according to christs example..... the catholic church follows yours........

You do know nothing. Read your Bible again. Christ archetype of the Christian Bible was not only a renegade and a troublemaker (a couple of his redeeming qualities as far as I see it), he took those actions to stand up for justice and integrity; something that Christian actions have not done.
Hell, you don't even take a real stand in defense of anything but yourself.

So my suggestion is to live up to Christ's example as it is actually told in the Bible, not as it is told to you by your local preacher, which is another way that Christians go so very wrong.


the example is simple.... christ taught to follow him, not focus on the world..... the catholic church teachs that they make the rules, on their terms, fuck the bible and fight everybody

You really need to read your bible again and stop listening to religious leaders that demand and work toward blind obedience of said leaders. Christ was, as described in the same Bible that you are supposed to understand, a radical. Not like the haters claim, but as someone who stood up for what was right. He made a stand, like a hero, not by staying silent like a coward.


now before you misunderstand my references towards the catholic church and why I have referred to it....I will explain it in little words

No need to try. I understand the big words better than you, as well as the complex issues better than you.



church is same as radical christian...not speak for every people, same as radical person, they not answer to or for every church, so no point in every church trying to shut up man when church not have right or ability to silence them

No, I already knew that, if only you could have figured that fact out for yourself.

I already knew that they do not speak for other denominations, but does that mean that they are not allowed to speak out against those radicals? Based on your apologist stances of the past, I am guessing that the answer to that question is a resounding no.

Why can't they speak out against them, since they do so very much harm to Christianity's reputation?

The time for excuses has long past. Stop telling me why you think that you can't speak out and tell me why you refuse to speak out against the evil people within the broad scope of your religion. Why are you afraid to stand up and be counted against the evil?


what you are actually saying, falcon,.... is for churchs to do the same dammed thing that the catholic church tried to do to other religions, faiths and beliefs.... but nowadays... its not kill them off, its deny them having a voice at all

More excuses, and not even good ones. All I have ACTUALLY been saying is that if you believe them to be wrong, then why not publicly distance yourselves from them to insure that you are not counted amongst them?

When you can answer that "why", only then are you prepared to debate intelligently on what I am saying.


I can not help but be amused by the fact you are now endorsing the same tactics used against many religions by the catholic church..... and if the catholic church had succeeded, you would not have a voice or a face.......

You get amused at alot of things that are beyond your comprehension. It's like the guy who laughs at a joke 2 minutes after everyone else who got it right away.

Had it not been for people like me, none of us would have a voice; and the voice that you have would be even more uninformed than it currently is.

As far as tactics against the church, it worked for them. Non-Christians are still working against 1800 years of propaganda from the church. Oh, that's right; you don't know that.
And now it is working against them. You said something about Kharma? How about this one; What comes around goes around; Or "it's all on the wheel".


strange how you are vocal about a man being wrong for talking about silencing other people.... and the way you want it dealt with, is by having others silence the voices......

think about it falcon...... karma ???

I am not talking about silencing them.......if only you had been paying attention in the first place.

However, I have been talking about distancing yourselves, in the public eye, from them in order to not be counted amongst them.

Maybe you consider it "silencing", but then you would be the only one here that does.

[Annika L]

I will make this single plea that the pissing match end here.

Inasmuch as you two have issues with one another, it would be most respectful to the rest of us if you take the conflict offline: it does not enrich us one whit to hear Falcon call LDD "stupid" and "coward", or to hear how amused LDD is by Falcon's ignorance and hypocrisy. So please say it in private, not in public.

[Pasadenacpl2]

It certainly violates rule #2.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

And that has to do with your spineless unwillingness to stand up and say "Those Christians DO NOT represent us" how?

Fact is that you are a coward. You have proven it in other threads where the courage to stand up and be counted against the wrong has failed you in both word and action.



You are absolutely correct.

I should be ashamed of myself for expecting Christians to be responsible for their own lack of willingness to speak out against those within their own groups that support and promote hatred.

If I were doing the same thing to other groups, the Christians would be applauding me, the hypocrites.



Again, you are right. Having been raised Catholic (mother's side of the family) and Lutheran (father's side of the family) with having often gone to church with my cousins (mostly Methodist and Episcopalian), how could I POSSIBLY understand Christianity and it's multitude of sects?

God damn, you are stupid for making that assumption. Do you not know that Christianity is responsible for most of the people that become Pagan?
Why do you think that we know more about the Bible than most Christians do?




And you are telling me why? Like I said before, I already know that, but, once again, you are not capable of getting it.

So don't tell ME about it, tell everyone else, because the rest of the world sees that all of the rest of the Christians (not the extremists) are not saying anything against those extremist Christians, instead just staying silent and, by so doing, letting yourself be counted amongst those that even your own people claim to oppose.

Come on. You claim to be a licensed councilor and you don't even know that little bit of social psychology?

I am not saying that you are not on my side, but the silence tells everyone that you are not even on your own side.

But hey. If you want the cancer within your own religion to grow, then please, by all means, let the extremists continue to advertise their hate and bile continue to be used as a representation of what your religion is "really" all about.

Just see how the court of public opinion feels about Christianity after it has gotten so far out of hand that your religion and it's followers (the ones that are not extremists) suffers the repercussions.

Even you should be able to see that train wreck coming your way.



As someone supposedly trained in some level of professional psychology, you cannot figure out why? It gives one pause to consider your claims of proper professional psychological training, if you do not understand that. It's basic psych 101, for fuck's sake.

And actually, there are few "churches" that I have not heard about, read about and met up with. Remember that I am Wiccan and, as such, are very cautious about what some of them do and say, as well as being very thorough about which ones represent the largest threats to both our own religious rights as well as the rights of others.

Now why would anyone pile all of the Christians together, based on the actions of just a very loud, offensive vocal few?

How about this reason;
The ones amongst them, that the vocal and offensive few never get vocally and correctly put in their place by the silent majority that are too afraid of being booted out by standing up and being counted against the offenders.

That is the usual reason in religion, particularly monotheism and there is a historical precedent in Christianity in particular. I know of any number of things that various Churches/Christian groups have done to remove some of their own from their groups/congregations. Most of them so superficial as to be laughable.




You do know nothing. Read your Bible again. Christ archetype of the Christian Bible was not only a renegade and a troublemaker (a couple of his redeeming qualities as far as I see it), he took those actions to stand up for justice and integrity; something that Christian actions have not done.
Hell, you don't even take a real stand in defense of anything but yourself.

So my suggestion is to live up to Christ's example as it is actually told in the Bible, not as it is told to you by your local preacher, which is another way that Christians go so very wrong.



You really need to read your bible again and stop listening to religious leaders that demand and work toward blind obedience of said leaders. Christ was, as described in the same Bible that you are supposed to understand, a radical. Not like the haters claim, but as someone who stood up for what was right. He made a stand, like a hero, not by staying silent like a coward.



No need to try. I understand the big words better than you, as well as the complex issues better than you.




No, I already knew that, if only you could have figured that fact out for yourself.

I already knew that they do not speak for other denominations, but does that mean that they are not allowed to speak out against those radicals? Based on your apologist stances of the past, I am guessing that the answer to that question is a resounding no.

Why can't they speak out against them, since they do so very much harm to Christianity's reputation?

The time for excuses has long past. Stop telling me why you think that you can't speak out and tell me why you refuse to speak out against the evil people within the broad scope of your religion. Why are you afraid to stand up and be counted against the evil?



More excuses, and not even good ones. All I have ACTUALLY been saying is that if you believe them to be wrong, then why not publicly distance yourselves from them to insure that you are not counted amongst them?

When you can answer that "why", only then are you prepared to debate intelligently on what I am saying.



You get amused at alot of things that are beyond your comprehension. It's like the guy who laughs at a joke 2 minutes after everyone else who got it right away.

Had it not been for people like me, none of us would have a voice; and the voice that you have would be even more uninformed than it currently is.

As far as tactics against the church, it worked for them. Non-Christians are still working against 1800 years of propaganda from the church. Oh, that's right; you don't know that.
And now it is working against them. You said something about Kharma? How about this one; What comes around goes around; Or "it's all on the wheel".



I am not talking about silencing them.......if only you had been paying attention in the first place.

However, I have been talking about distancing yourselves, in the public eye, from them in order to not be counted amongst them.

Maybe you consider it "silencing", but then you would be the only one here that does.

the christians that you think are wrong, are actually acting according to gods word..... god asks them not to fight amongst themselves, but let god judge each man according to their heart, not their words and deeds..... that is why they are silent.....

read the bible, falcon, you are slamming christians for being true to their faith and beliefs..... and I am referring to true christians, the ones that act according to the teachings of god..... not their interpretation of the bible

there are many different facets of christianity and they all profess to follow the teaching of god, many actually do.... so they distance themselves from people like engle, and focus on their own walk with god.....

what good would it serve any christian to fight amongst themselves, against gods guidance and cost themselves, their own walk with god ??????????.

as for religious leaders, I was a non denominational christian, I followed no religious leaders.... I followed gods guidance..... as that is the true voice of christianity...... and what person follows the voice of man, and forsakes the teaching and guidance of christ ????? people like engle

christ doesn't tell christians to evangalise in his name.......
the bible tells them, let the light of christ shine thru you as a witness of the power of christ in your life, and that will draw people to christ thru you.....

the churchs that do do the fighting are churches like the catholic church and the WBC and by their actions, are they known...... not as churches of christ.... but of churchs of disrepute and unchristlike deeds

[Pasadenacpl2]

I'll add that most of us see folks like the WBC as kooks, and scratch our heads that anyone puts any stock in them. We don't bother to distance ourselves from them because we don't see them as part of us in the first place. If you can't tell the difference between those nutters and the average joe who puts on his Sunday best once a week, then you're just as nutters as they are.

We pretty much look at anyone who spends all of their time on a soap box screaming "Look at what the Christians are doing this time!" as a whack job. Nothing we say is going to change their mind, and they are pretty much off the reservation in the first place. So, we don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about them.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

lol pasa, my mother refers to the evanglists as the false prophets of the end times.... and the WBC as over zealous christians....but my mother thinks that the internet is the devils playground lol

mind you..... there are times that I honestly wonder if there is some truth is her words

[FalconAngel]

the christians that you think are wrong, are actually acting according to gods word..... god asks them not to fight amongst themselves, but let god judge each man according to their heart, not their words and deeds..... that is why they are silent.....

So you are saying that you all need to hang together even though you do not believe in what the other group does?

Damn!! that is the excuse of mindless drones. So much for independent will, responsibility and accountability.

I guess the devil makes you do it, right?


read the bible, falcon, you are slamming christians for being true to their faith and beliefs..... and I am referring to true christians, the ones that act according to the teachings of god..... not their interpretation of the bible

Doesn't the teachings of God say to "love thy neighbor as thyself"? Or maybe this one will ring a bell: "Do unto others as you would have do unto you".
There is not a lot of room for "interpretation" in those. Or maybe there is some fine print in the Bible that I missed there?

Preaching hate does exactly the opposite of your God's will which means that those folks that your silence supports are not following God's guidance, then; are they? Not exactly good Christians, if you ask any of my family or friends that are Christian. Even my right wing, near extremist cousin agrees that they are not good Christians.


there are many different facets of christianity and they all profess to follow the teaching of god, many actually do.... so they distance themselves from people like engle, and focus on their own walk with god.....

Since when does silence distance one from anything? Silence is ALWAYS taken as acceptance. Even the law presumes silence as an admission of acceptance. Well, here in the US it does.



what good would it serve any christian to fight amongst themselves, against gods guidance and cost themselves, their own walk with god ??????????.

Your argument is moot, since there are Christian groups that have already done so. They presume that all of the Christians that belong to the groups that do not toe their line of hate are not good Christians, so it is only a matter of time before they target you and all of the others who follow the aforementioned non-extremist groups.

There have been Christian groups that have already stated that those who disagree with them must be destroyed, so what I have warned about happening has already begun.

So the question begs to be asked and answered. Which of you are right; the haters or the others?

Here's your answer. NO ONE KNOWS FOR CERTAIN. So you may as well stand for something good instead of supporting evil by staying silent.

So much for not fighting amongst yourselves.

See, the thing is that what each of what those different groups have been following has been based on an edit of an edit of a mistranslation of an edit of a mistranslation of a mistranslation of a mistranslation of a document that started in Sanskrit.

And after all of that, each misinterpretation has been interpreted by humans to suit their own agendas, even the ones that you follow. Now I will not argue the validity of the religion, itself, as that is not the point.

However, even non-denominational Christians interpret the Bible based on little more than reading the edited version of the Bible that they have received. Have you ever look up the original books of the Bible and read through them in the context of the times in what they were written (including the books that are online through the Vatican archives. the books that were excluded by the Council of Nicea)? You may find those documents particularly........enlightening.



as for religious leaders, I was a non denominational christian, I followed no religious leaders.... I followed gods guidance..... as that is the true voice of christianity...... and what person follows the voice of man, and forsakes the teaching and guidance of christ ????? people like engle

Like I said, even N-D Christians have some form of leadership (local congregation if nothing else) that interprets their Bible for the masses. So that argument holds no water.

And again with the teachings of Christ? Did you miss the part that the Christ figure was a troublemaker that stood up for justice and honesty and opposition of corruption?
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Sound familiar? It speaks to justice and the mob mentality.

Because of that part of his teachings, staying silent against the evil, even amongst Christianity, is a violation of his teachings.

Again, you argument holds no water.



christ doesn't tell christians to evangalise in his name.......
the bible tells them, let the light of christ shine thru you as a witness of the power of christ in your life, and that will draw people to christ thru you.....

Interesting that you say that, because there certainly looks to be more Christians out there that disagree with that, so as long as you stay silent against them, you will be counted amongst them.

Pity that you still, after all of this time, have not learned that important life lesson.


the churchs that do do the fighting are churches like the catholic church and the WBC and by their actions, are they known...... not as churches of christ.... but of churchs of disrepute and unchristlike deeds


So don't tell me.......tell the world. I already know that they are evil, so why stay silent and be counted among them when they do not represent you and yours?

They are already fighting against your own religion, so why not defend yourselves against their machinations?

Law of nature; fight or flight. You choose to hide and stay silent in the hopes that they will not notice you. Eventually, you get hunted down by the same people that your silence is protecting.

That one is a lesson in history that you should have learned, but didn't.

Religion or no, silence against an injustice is an acceptance of that injustice. If you do not want to be counted amongst them, then let the world know that you do not agree with or support them in their goals or actions.

Distancing yourself from them is not fighting with them. Distancing yourself from them is removing yourself from their association. Big difference, there, that you clearly did not consider.

Remember this one important lesson, if you learn nothing else in this discussion;

The last time that we mixed Christian religion with politics, people (including other Christians, not unlike yourself) were burned at the stake, drowned, crushed under rocks and drawn and quartered.

That is historic fact. Feel free to look it up and consider the ramifications of silence against evil.

[Long Duck Dong]

no I am saying that any christian that focuses on their walk with god, is doing as god asked of them

they are not attacking other people, of faith, religion or belief, as god asked them not to judge others, that alone, is gods right....for no man can truely know the heart of another man, and that god alone, can see the truth in all mans hearts.....

let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone.... let no man place himself upon the throne of god for that is set aside for god and all men come before god for judgement.......

now most christians that follow a walk with god, actually pray to god for guidance, they use the bible for reference, but they listen for the voice of god, and they manifest the fruits and gifts of the holy spirit, aka speaking in tongues, discernment of spirits etc etc

they seek to not hold hatred and dislike in their heart for the man beside them, but to see them as another of gods children, as god instructs.... aka love thy neighbour as yourself....

but unfortunately.... falcon...its the mindless and uncalled for, constant judging of christians for so many things, that is a big part of the reason that most christians in the site, never say anything about being christian and thats unfortunate, as we have a number of pro lgbt christians in the site that are not judgmental of LGBT, and accepting of pagans, wiccans and christians etc....... yet, they are made the target of ridicule for something that they do not preach........

take a leaf from their book, falcon, they are practicing the true path of christianity, yet the target of many stones thrown at them by people that really do not realise what a true christian is...... and many of them are in this site..... being silent.... cos of people like you

[tenni]

Pasa
I see your point. The only problem is that others see a certain type of Christianity practised on TV and it often comes closer to what you refer to as the nutters. There are also calmer more reasoned and yes more boring mundane presentations of Christianity of television. It is the extremist that get the attention and the televangalists who make wild statements. The Pat Robertsons who accuse what happened in Haiti as a pack with the devil etc. These types get the air play, the media coverage and it is more rare to find religious people standing up and denouncing Uganda. Now, governments have denounced what Uganda is proposing and that has held them back. Does anyone recall what is the prime religious belief in Uganda? Are the international churches denouncing this "kill gays" movement?



I'll add that most of us see folks like the WBC as kooks, and scratch our heads that anyone puts any stock in them. We don't bother to distance ourselves from them because we don't see them as part of us in the first place. If you can't tell the difference between those nutters and the average joe who puts on his Sunday best once a week, then you're just as nutters as they are.

We pretty much look at anyone who spends all of their time on a soap box screaming "Look at what the Christians are doing this time!" as a whack job. Nothing we say is going to change their mind, and they are pretty much off the reservation in the first place. So, we don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about them.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

tenni

most of uganda is followers of christ, mainly catholic followed by anglican, followed by muslim....and the rest are mixed christian ( thats based on the 2002 census )

so in theory, the churchs that should be most vocal, are the catholic, and the anglican churchs...... as they make up most of the countries religion....

they are the type of religion structure that will teach you that going to mass and church on sunday etc, is honoring god...... thats actually a bit like going to your parents on sunday, yet having no contact with them for the rest of the week,

the mixed christians are the type that believe and follow the guidance of christ that the way to god is thru jesus..... or in simple terms, if you want to know your parents better, sit down with them and talk to them.....

so its no wonder that engle is talking the way he is..... unless he is catholic, the catholic church would be suspect of his motives, tho supportive of his message.... the anglicans would not be supportive of him either...and the mixed christians would ignore him as a false prophet who is not speaking as a man of god but delivering a message against many of gods children....

however, you add in the mindset of people in uganda, and yeah, engle is using the country as a platform to further his own endeavours as they would be more supportive of his anti LGBT stance

[FalconAngel]

no I am saying that any christian that focuses on their walk with god, is doing as god asked of them

So then what are you saying? Because those folks that you claim do not represent you are saying that their way is the only right way and that tolerance is wrong.

Again I ask.......Which of you is really right if you both say that the other is wrong?


they are not attacking other people, of faith, religion or belief, as god asked them not to judge others, that alone, is gods right....for no man can truely know the heart of another man, and that god alone, can see the truth in all mans hearts.....

Actually, had you really and factually done your homework, then you would know better than that. There are many Christian groups that DO attack other Christians as well as non-Christians. Maybe not in NZ, but here in the US there are.



let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone.... let no man place himself upon the throne of god for that is set aside for god and all men come before god for judgement.......

And that has to do with standing up for yourself or a just cause how?

You have always categorically refused to stand up against injustice and evil at every opportunity for fear of the presumed personal repercussions to yourself. You make up excuses why you "can't" or won't do so, now speaking as if it is for all Christians.


now most christians that follow a walk with god, actually pray to god for guidance, they use the bible for reference, but they listen for the voice of god, and they manifest the fruits and gifts of the holy spirit, aka speaking in tongues, discernment of spirits etc etc

I am certain that the hater Christians did the same thing, seeking "god's" guidance and their answers led them to the current situation with them.

Interesting how different interpretation of doctrine can lead so many in so many different directions.

Unless you actually think that your God actually comes down and talks to one, like in the movie "Oh God".


they seek to not hold hatred and dislike in their heart for the man beside them, but to see them as another of gods children, as god instructs.... aka love thy neighbour as yourself....

So that means that they may not make it well known that those who preach hate do not represent them? That is a pretty self-defeating and self destructive attitude.

Remember what I said before? Silence against evil within your own group will put you in league with that evil, whether you follow it or not. Those haters are Christian........maybe not your particular sect, but they are Christian none the less.

By refusing to take a stand, even the slightest bit to segregate them from you, you have allowed others to presume that you are with them, particularly when you take up the cause to protect them and choose to be offended when those types are talked about.

You have done just that; taken up their defense. You did the identical thing in another thread on a somewhat different subject and were shown the error of those ways.


but unfortunately.... falcon...its the mindless and uncalled for, constant judging of christians for so many things,

Look at the history of the behavior of Christians throughout history.
Remember that Kharma thing?

There is still nearly 1800 years of Christian violence and hatred that your religion has to make up for. Standing up, loudly, publicly and as a unified voice against the haters in your own religion would go a very very long way to making things right.

Perhaps that goes against your personal belief, but do not assume that all of the reasonable Christians agree with your philosophy of appeasement.



that is a big part of the reason that most christians in the site, never say anything about being christian and thats unfortunate, as we have a number of pro lgbt christians in the site that are not judgmental of LGBT, and accepting of pagans, wiccans and christians etc....... yet, they are made the target of ridicule for something that they do not preach........

I doubt that anyone on this site actually cares if any of us are or are not Christian, but a refusal to stand up for what is right is just wrong. A refusal to stand up against those who preach hate, just because they are within your own religion, is just a means of accepting that what they say is in agreement with them.

You are our site's psych guy; why do you not understand that silence is acceptance? Every society seems to understand that human behavior, so why do you not understand it?

It isn't like you are some fuzz-butt teenager that has no life experience or education. You are an adult with, I presume, plenty of life experience to learn from. So perhaps you should learn.



take a leaf from their book, falcon,

Which edit version of their book? That is one of the reasons that you are not getting it. Few of you actually follow the same version.


they are practicing the true path of christianity, yet the target of many stones thrown at them by people that really do not realise what a true christian is...... and many of them are in this site..... being silent.... cos of people like you

Oh. Well I apologize to those that live in such great fear of standing up to the vile haters within your religion, because you won't stand against hate if it is within your own religion.

Remember the silence/acceptance thing and the Kharma thing?

When religious doctrine supersedes doing the right thing, then doctrine is wrong. Isn't that what those people are doing? Superseding what is right in favor of doctrine?

And if Christ wants people to do what is right and good, then what you are suggesting is contrary to the teachings of the Christ figure, as depicted in the Bible.

Let me put this in perspective for you.

In Christianity (Islam is mostly the same), you folks stand up for your own, no matter how wrong or harmful they are, as long as they are one of your own religion. Refusing to protect your own religion's reputation or continuation.
To me, that is very self-destructive. It is also destructive of far more than perhaps you can fathom.
It is akin to allowing an unarmed thief to just casually walk into your home while you are there, with full knowledge of the fact that he plans on stealing everything, and not fighting back just because he is of your belief system.

Are you that afraid of standing up for what is right?

In other religions, those who intentionally violate the precepts of doctrine (as in the case of Abrahamic religions) or philosophy (pagans are praxic and have no doctrine to be "interpreted", btw) are immediately removed from that group and very clearly and publicly made aware that we are watching them and making it very clear that they will not be allowed to continue without resistance to their perversion of our religion.

We will protect our religion against those who would use it for personal power and control.

By your words and actions, Christians, quite clearly do not care enough about their religion, preferring nonsensical parts of doctrine instead, to protect it from those within it who would bring it's destruction, just because the ones responsible are part of your religion.

So, by your "logic", it is better to let the gangrene fester until the patient is dead, rather than just amputate the infected limb. How unfortunate. Until you came up with that, I had such hope for you Christians.

So, for now I will just keep up with pointing out the foolishness of Christian haters and watch as you all allow your religion's internal cancer (the haters) eat away at at your religion until it ceases to exist. At this rate, it should be within my lifetime.

[Darkside2009]

A hundred, thousand welcomes to the Grand Poobah, Emir of all the Fluffies,Prince of Inner and Outer Haemorrhoid, Lord of Cliche and a Light among his people.

How may we serve you O Illustrious One?

What's that, you have indigestion? You think the Christian you ate last night was not properly cooked?

A curse upon his infidel heart, may the fleas from a thousand camels, infest the loins of his descendants, from here through all eternity.

Fluffies! Attend to his Eminence, bring him some water and Alkaselzer.

So, Illustrious One, you wish to launch a Jihad against these vile Christians? Wise choice, O Great One, they are growing in number like blow-flies upon a camel's arse.

If left unchecked, they will demand their voices be heard in all the market places and votes for their women.

Yes! O Enlightened One, I shall instruct General Ignorance this very night. He is our very best General, by morning your lions shall all have indigestion.

I only hope your Great Loudness, that we shall have enough Alkaseltzer to go round.

Fluffies! To your homes, arm yourselves with your cliches, for tonight the Prince of Haemarroids has declared Jihad upon his enemies.

May the Light of Darkness shine upon his Illustrious path.

[Long Duck Dong]

So then what are you saying? Because those folks that you claim do not represent you are saying that their way is the only right way and that tolerance is wrong.

Again I ask.......Which of you is really right if you both say that the other is wrong?



Actually, had you really and factually done your homework, then you would know better than that. There are many Christian groups that DO attack other Christians as well as non-Christians. Maybe not in NZ, but here in the US there are.




And that has to do with standing up for yourself or a just cause how?

You have always categorically refused to stand up against injustice and evil at every opportunity for fear of the presumed personal repercussions to yourself. You make up excuses why you "can't" or won't do so, now speaking as if it is for all Christians.



I am certain that the hater Christians did the same thing, seeking "god's" guidance and their answers led them to the current situation with them.

Interesting how different interpretation of doctrine can lead so many in so many different directions.

Unless you actually think that your God actually comes down and talks to one, like in the movie "Oh God".



So that means that they may not make it well known that those who preach hate do not represent them? That is a pretty self-defeating and self destructive attitude.

Remember what I said before? Silence against evil within your own group will put you in league with that evil, whether you follow it or not. Those haters are Christian........maybe not your particular sect, but they are Christian none the less.

By refusing to take a stand, even the slightest bit to segregate them from you, you have allowed others to presume that you are with them, particularly when you take up the cause to protect them and choose to be offended when those types are talked about.

You have done just that; taken up their defense. You did the identical thing in another thread on a somewhat different subject and were shown the error of those ways.



Look at the history of the behavior of Christians throughout history.
Remember that Kharma thing?

There is still nearly 1800 years of Christian violence and hatred that your religion has to make up for. Standing up, loudly, publicly and as a unified voice against the haters in your own religion would go a very very long way to making things right.

Perhaps that goes against your personal belief, but do not assume that all of the reasonable Christians agree with your philosophy of appeasement.




I doubt that anyone on this site actually cares if any of us are or are not Christian, but a refusal to stand up for what is right is just wrong. A refusal to stand up against those who preach hate, just because they are within your own religion, is just a means of accepting that what they say is in agreement with them.

You are our site's psych guy; why do you not understand that silence is acceptance? Every society seems to understand that human behavior, so why do you not understand it?

It isn't like you are some fuzz-butt teenager that has no life experience or education. You are an adult with, I presume, plenty of life experience to learn from. So perhaps you should learn.




Which edit version of their book? That is one of the reasons that you are not getting it. Few of you actually follow the same version.



Oh. Well I apologize to those that live in such great fear of standing up to the vile haters within your religion, because you won't stand against hate if it is within your own religion.

Remember the silence/acceptance thing and the Kharma thing?

When religious doctrine supersedes doing the right thing, then doctrine is wrong. Isn't that what those people are doing? Superseding what is right in favor of doctrine?

And if Christ wants people to do what is right and good, then what you are suggesting is contrary to the teachings of the Christ figure, as depicted in the Bible.

Let me put this in perspective for you.

In Christianity (Islam is mostly the same), you folks stand up for your own, no matter how wrong or harmful they are, as long as they are one of your own religion. Refusing to protect your own religion's reputation or continuation.
To me, that is very self-destructive. It is also destructive of far more than perhaps you can fathom.
It is akin to allowing an unarmed thief to just casually walk into your home while you are there, with full knowledge of the fact that he plans on stealing everything, and not fighting back just because he is of your belief system.

Are you that afraid of standing up for what is right?

In other religions, those who intentionally violate the precepts of doctrine (as in the case of Abrahamic religions) or philosophy (pagans are praxic and have no doctrine to be "interpreted", btw) are immediately removed from that group and very clearly and publicly made aware that we are watching them and making it very clear that they will not be allowed to continue without resistance to their perversion of our religion.

We will protect our religion against those who would use it for personal power and control.

By your words and actions, Christians, quite clearly do not care enough about their religion, preferring nonsensical parts of doctrine instead, to protect it from those within it who would bring it's destruction, just because the ones responsible are part of your religion.

So, by your "logic", it is better to let the gangrene fester until the patient is dead, rather than just amputate the infected limb. How unfortunate. Until you came up with that, I had such hope for you Christians.

So, for now I will just keep up with pointing out the foolishness of Christian haters and watch as you all allow your religion's internal cancer (the haters) eat away at at your religion until it ceases to exist. At this rate, it should be within my lifetime.

what people represent me ???? I am a ex christian falcon, none of the churches represent me...... maybe you missed that aspect in your rush to prove me wrong..... but in 4 different threads, you have refered to my faith and beliefs as wrong as well....... my beliefs are similar to wicca and thats what I ID as..... the same belief you profess to follow... however, I am a eclectic path walker and solitary cos I do not wish to walk with narrow minded, judgmental people that can not respect other peoples right and desire to walk their path without conflict and disrespect from others

you have clearly shown your issues with christianity and god and christ..... your judgment of other religions and faiths including pagans and wiccans is very clear...... even to the point that you will sit in judgment of things you have no idea about, IE my faith and beliefs.....

so enjoy your war against the rest of the world, falcon..... you may find some allies in the WBC church...

[FalconAngel]

A hundred, thousand welcomes to the Grand Poobah, Emir of all the Fluffies,Prince of Inner and Outer Haemorrhoid, Lord of Cliche and a Light among his people.

How may we serve you O Illustrious One?

What's that, you have indigestion? You think the Christian you ate last night was not properly cooked?

A curse upon his infidel heart, may the fleas from a thousand camels, infest the loins of his descendants, from here through all eternity.

Fluffies! Attend to his Eminence, bring him some water and Alkaselzer.

So, Illustrious One, you wish to launch a Jihad against these vile Christians? Wise choice, O Great One, they are growing in number like blow-flies upon a camel's arse.

If left unchecked, they will demand their voices be heard in all the market places and votes for their women.

Yes! O Enlightened One, I shall instruct General Ignorance this very night. He is our very best General, by morning your lions shall all have indigestion.

I only hope your Great Loudness, that we shall have enough Alkaseltzer to go round.

Fluffies! To your homes, arm yourselves with your cliches, for tonight the Prince of Haemarroids has declared Jihad upon his enemies.

May the Light of Darkness shine upon his Illustrious path.


See, now you are just being a complete and total ignorant horse's ass.

Show me where I said anything about a "jihad" against Christians. Put your money where your mouth is.

Besides the Jihad thing is something that monotheists, not Pagans, do.

But hey; If you don't love your religion enough to stand up and protect it from the evil within, then let it die through your unwillingness to protect it from it's inner problems.

Maybe there isn't as much promise for your religion as I had originally thought.

[FalconAngel]

what people represent me ???? I am a ex christian falcon, none of the churches represent me......

Walks like, talks like, acts like......must be. Particularly when you stated that you are an ND Christian.

I guess your zeal to try to lose at the pissing contest game again with me must have once more clouded your judgment. It has already been proven, repeatedly, and in more than just this thread, that you are wrong more often than right.

Plus, just a post or two ago, you said that you were a ND Christian, so which is it, really? Which statement was the lie
The two religions are not interchangeable nor reconcilable into a compatible, common belief system, like Abrahamic religions tend to be.



maybe you missed that aspect in your rush to prove me wrong.....

I never needed to prove you wrong, that is just too easy with you. Nor was there a rush to do so. It is child's play to prove you wrong.

Unlike you, I do consider what I am saying before I say it. In Wicca, we call that being responsible for one's words and actions.

Which may explain that in one thread you claim to be a ND Christian and in the next thread, you claim to be a Wiccan.

It was you that came up with all the excuses why Christians should not stand against the evil within their own religion (sounds a lot as if you want Christianity to fall in on itself).

It was also you that said, in the McMillen thread, that GLBT people should not stand up for her rights after talking about how important those rights were.



but in 4 different threads, you have refered to my faith and beliefs as wrong as well....... my beliefs are similar to wicca and thats what I ID as.....

No they are not similar to Wicca. If you were even remotely Wiccan, then you would know better than to even say that.

If you think that, after all of the tremendously ignorant statements that you have made, that you actually identify as Wiccan, then you do not know what being Wiccan really is.

You are not of the Wiccae.

You do not worship under our Gods, nor do you know the names of our Gods or our rituals to them and in their honor.

You may be one of those fluff bunny Pagans that take the rede so literally as to paralyze you from taking any real action at all, if you are actually a Pagan at all.
I have noticed that you are tending to flip-flop a bit, so perhaps you are so into appeasement that you are not paying attention to what you even say about your belief system.



the same belief you profess to follow...

No, Not the same path that I factually follow. You ignore nature, including human nature; fighting against it. I embrace and revel in it.



however, I am a eclectic path walker and solitary cos I do not wish to walk with narrow minded, judgmental people that can not respect other peoples right and desire to walk their path without conflict and disrespect from others

Let me repeat myself here.
You do not worship under our Gods, nor do you know the names of our Gods or our rituals to them and in their honor.

If you actually are what you now claim that you are, then you are, by actual definition, Pagan, not Wiccan.

And yes, there is a difference. Eclectics are not initiates of any tradition. I know too many eclectics, including my daughters mother and my daughter (hereditary witches, both) to be fooled by your disinformation.

Being eclectic cannot make you an initiated member of the Wiccae, therefor it is not possible to be Wiccan.

As far as "narrow minded, judgmental people that can not respect.......", there are infinitely more eclectic Pagans that follow that philosophy than Wiccans. We don't have problems with all Christians, just the specific ones that I have already mentioned, over and over again, in this and other related threads.

Not that they all are, but based on the way that you are talking, you must have been listening to Correlians or "Christo-Pagans" (both laughable within the broader Pagan and Wiccan communities) for your "Pagan wisdom" instead of actually walking and working your path.


you have clearly shown your issues with christianity and god and christ..... your judgment of other religions and faiths including pagans and wiccans is very clear...... even to the point that you will sit in judgment of things you have no idea about, IE my faith and beliefs.....

I am sorry that I prefer fact over heavily edited and misinterpreted doctrine; But you seem to prefer that heavily edited and mistranslated, misinterpreted doctrine over reality.

Show me where I said that I have an issue with all Christians or with Christianity as it is supposed to be practiced.

You can very easily show where I have an issue with the extremist/right wing Christians. Of course I do. Most people do.
Are you saying that they have the right to tell me who I can choose to love, what religion I get to practice or that I cannot live under any laws but the laws of their religion.

And as far as the whole Christ myth, look up the Persian and Egyptian myths of Ra and Gilgamesh, dating back more than 5000 years, for the similarities to the much younger Christ myth from the Bible.
Not that there is anything wrong with the myth, but I refuse to accept the story as historical fact when cannot be proven as such; but I will accept the lessons of the story as useful.

Perhaps that is why you have an issue with me.


so enjoy your war against the rest of the world, falcon

I am not the one raging against the world, but I am willing to stand and fight for what is good and right. Even though you lack the courage to do so.

I would have hoped that a vet would be willing to stand up for what's right, but I guess, in your case at least, they are not of the same mettle in NZ as the vets here tend to be.

[QUOTE=Long Duck Dong;167948..... you may find some allies in the WBC church...[/QUOTE]

Considering your past remarks regarding what the GLBT community should do about their rights being ignored and what you have said about what Christians should do about speaking out against the evil within their own ranks, you are the one more likely to gain allies amongst the WBC than I am ever likely to have.........particularly in light of what I have said about your buddies in that group of psychos.

[Long Duck Dong]

I said ex christian falcon...... IE no longer...... and that I did not belong to any set christian * sect * IE catholic.....

I have openly stated that I am wiccan but I have stated that wicca is the closest in base beliefs to what I follow, tho its not actually wicca that I follow..... cos *gasp * it doesn't have a name or a label

I do not lump all wiccans under the same label of wicca in the same way that I do not lump all christians under the same label of christian..... but you do... a lot.....

the difference between you and me is that I embrace the diversity of all faiths, religions and beliefs, including the ones I do not agree with..... and I embrace the unknown....... I see allies in unsual places ( something that was proven to be the right move when in nz we had christians and christian churchs support the lgbt with the fight for lgbt marriage ) and something that you are constantly telling me, is the wrong thing to do.....

now I have many friends come to me for advice and help with wiccan matters, as I have a open mind and are seen as a person with a great deal of understanding of magick.... and that is not proven by how many people I know with Ph.D behind their name or how I ride their coat tails......
its proven by the fact that I can work with animals and plants in ways that go against the laws of nature, a big part of the old ways of nature.....and wicca.....

I also do not sit in a forum telling people how what they believe in the ways of faith and belief, is wrong..... as to each person, its their faith and belief, and special to them regardless if I agree with it or not.....

as for my knowledge of gods and goddesses, I can name over 330 celt gods and goddesses, including the names of the ones lost to modern wicca.... and there is also the greek, hindu, roman, welsh, norse, etc .....
but the key there, is that I am not a modern weekend wiccan who plays dress up ..... I am a person that lives and breaths every day, what I believe in my faith, the same way I was as a christian, I speak to god directly, as it was god I believed in..... so I did not make appointments with the local pastor and ask them to email god for me


now I have no issue with you,.... as I am not worried who is winning or losing what war etc.... but I can not help but notice your constant need to dissect peoples posts, including mine.... as then attack our faiths and beliefs constantly....... and what that is saying, simply.... is that you are having trouble reconciling your own words and thoughts with what you preach....

wicca is a peaceful, gentle way of being..... you are a warrior that needs the battle.... think about it..... are you really practising what you preach.... or preaching what you do not practise

and once again, you have attacked my beliefs, without knowing what they are etc and if you think that I am not allowed to call myself wiccae, please go tell 3 of the people that were part of the american council of witches, that they have no idea what they are talking about and that the help I have given them, is false and fake and doesn't work.....

now I will once again, politely ask you to stop telling me about what i believe and know... as you have no idea what is in my head and I am getting a lil sick of you attacking something you know sweet *F* all about.....
so go back to your BRITISH traditional wicca, mr american wicca... and take that broomstick that you walked over at your handbinding, and sit on it......

[FalconAngel]

I said ex christian falcon...... IE no longer...... and that I did not belong to any set christian * sect * IE catholic.....

Doesn't really matter, anyway. Again......walks like, talks like and acts like.


I have openly stated that I am wiccan but I have stated that wicca is the closest in base beliefs to what I follow, tho its not actually wicca that I follow..... cos *gasp * it doesn't have a name or a label

See? again you are wrong. It does have a name, and if you had actually done your homework you would know that name..........PAGAN.


I do not lump all wiccans under the same label of wicca in the same way that I do not lump all christians under the same label of christian..... but you do... a lot.....

But there is the problem. You don't know enough about either to know that you are or are not making that determination.

Here's a couple basic rules of thumb for you to follow:

All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholic.

All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan.

Clearly, you assume that you are the only one to know that, which you clearly are wrong, again, about.



the difference between you and me is that I embrace the diversity of all faiths, religions and beliefs, including the ones I do not agree with

See, that is a wrong way to say that. I embrace my own religion. Pagan beliefs, including those of the Wiccae, do not work on faith; we work on knowledge of, understanding of and working with natural forces.

Embracing all religions is belonging to none. One cannot serve 2 masters, but you embrace many, by your own statement.

I serve one religion, but I respect that others have the right to practice others. No single path has all of the answers, but you don't seem to have figured that part out.

The way you are talking, sounds a lot like you are dabbling in many, yet belong to none.

Paganism; Shamanism specifically, was the mother to all religion and all science. It all started there. If only you had demonstrated sufficient knowledge of some of those facts.



..... and I embrace the unknown.......

Not based on your many posts that call for appeasement. You fear the unknown. I, on the other hand, do embrace the unknown. I am not afraid to state my opinion, knowing not what will happen, I will happily go on a road trip to somewhere that I have no foreknowledge of, I live for the answers to questions that I have yet to ask.

You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a fear of the negatives of exploring the unknown or taking risks for a cause (that is the unknown, too) or going off on an adventure just because you want to see the other side of the horizon.


I see allies in unsual places ( something that was proven to be the right move when in nz we had christians and christian churchs support the lgbt with the fight for lgbt marriage ) and something that you are constantly telling me, is the wrong thing to do.....

Good for them, but have they demonstrated the courage of their conviction by speaking out against people like "the Call", WBC or other haters? If not then they are unwilling to save their own religion from it's own cancers; cancers that grow when they hear nothing but silence against them.

That is the real point here. The more the, for lack of a better term, "good" Christians stay silent, the less the "bad" Christians will feel that they are wrong. and the silence encourages the cancer of those groups to grow.

Christianity has suffered from a cancer of hate and power-seekers for many centuries and with the silence of those Christians that would otherwise oppose them, that disease within the religion grows.

MY apologies to everyone who is tired of seeing this repeated to clarify for people that missed it every single time that I have said it, but LDD is the one that insists on missing it.

I am not opposed to Christianity, or any other religion. I have said, many times, that it has potential, but for the silence against the hate within it's own religion.

Is it the religion that is in their hearts or are they just blindly obedient to whatever garbage that their leaders spew?

If their heart says that they must do the right thing, then they should do the right thing, without regard to doctrine that tells them to remain silent against wrong; even if that wrong is within their own religion.

That simple philosophy is the single-most important reason that brought about the protestant movement in Europe. They wanted to worship their god in their way, that felt right to them, not under the doctrine of the Catholic church.

Doctrine was not serving them, but it was serving leadership. They recognized that and took action. Based on everything that you have said, you would have been siding with the Catholics back then.



now I have many friends come to me for advice and help with wiccan matters, as I have a open mind and are seen as a person with a great deal of understanding of magick

You even use the fluffy spelling of the word "Magic". as a recent eclectic, what makes you think that you are qualified to advise in that area? Even hereditary witches do not advise people in those areas until they have been practicing for much of their life.



.... and that is not proven by how many people I know with Ph.D behind their name or how I ride their coat tails......

Well, considering that almost 30% of the HP's and HPS' (many practicing for 20, 30 or 40+ years) in traditional, not just BTW, Wicca have PhD's in indirectly related fields, they are more qualified than either you or I to advise and make comment on it.

And I don't ride coattails, but I will repeat the knowledge and wisdom that they have given to me. If that is riding one's coat tails, then you would be doing the same thing. Don't be a hypocrite.



its proven by the fact that I can work with animals and plants in ways that go against the laws of nature, a big part of the old ways of nature.....and wicca.....

NO PAGAN PRACTICE WORKS AGAINST THE LAWS OF NATURE. We work within its boundless limits and form it's actions to our will within the natural laws. And those natural laws delve into sciences such as physics and quantum mechanics; as demonstrated by comparison of quantum theory (scientific, not colloquial "theory") and magic.

If you are working your will against these living things against their nature then you are not practicing magic correctly. If you cannot tell the difference, then you are not practicing the art correctly and it WILL come back to bite you in the ass. Maybe your inane arguments are that repercussion, or the beginning of it.

Remember the law of 3: that which you do comes back to you 3-fold.

Which, for those that may not know, explains why Witches do not curse people or commit any of the crimes that they have been prosecuted for in the past.



I also do not sit in a forum telling people how what they believe in the ways of faith and belief, is wrong..... as to each person, its their faith and belief, and special to them regardless if I agree with it or not.....

Ahh, but you do. You make assumptions about people like that all of the time.
You have said that it is wrong for me to encourage people to stand up for themselves, suffering the consequences and gaining the rewards of standing up for a just cause.
My belief is that every person is responsible for their actions and for their inactions. As an eclectic Pagan, you should already know that, if, as you claim, people are coming to you for advice in working magic. You cannot teach or advise in magic if you do not already understand the rules of nature that governs it's use.

And your issue with that concept is..........what?

Your view is that people should never take a risk or stand up for what they know is right? That they should follow doctrine, even when they know that the doctrine that they are obeying is in violation of what they know to be right?

So far, that is what your words have said.


as for my knowledge of gods and goddesses, I can name over 330 celt gods and goddesses,....

You know the names of 330 celtic Gods, but, being as our gods names are oathbound, you cannot know the names of the Gods of the Wiccae. It is not for a non-initiate to know, since only initiates are given that information.
How can you know the gods who's names are oathbound from your knowledge?

You believe that you know all of their names, but you do not know them all. Knowing the names of the gods of other pantheons (greek, Egyptian, Norse, Persian, etc.) is good and sometimes helpful, but not necessary for the practice of magic outside of each of those pantheons.

Remember that Pagan gods are regional and the pantheons that work best with witches tend to be the ones that are geographically correct and/or are associated with the geographic association of one's genetic line (i.e. german, English, Irish, Greek, etc.) . And unless one has been properly trained as a tribal Shaman, one should not call on 1st nations tribal gods or attempt to use their rituals because 1st nations take that as a grave insult for the uninitiated to perform their rites.
It may also hold true for aboriginal tribes in NZ as well. You should check with them on that one since I only know about the US native tribes on that.


....including the names of the ones lost to modern wicca

We of the Wiccae have never lost the names of our Gods.
Modern BTW Wicca has it's roots in the New Forest Covens and while we are not the New Forest Covens, we are the children/grandchildren and great grandchildren of those covens who survived the witch hunts of the middle ages and the renaissance, which allows us the same gods because their names and their rites were protected over the ages.

You should stop reading "fluffy bunny" authors so much and you should be a bit more particular about what they write. Some are complete crap, some are mostly crap, but need a discerning mind to pick out the diamonds in their dirt, and others are exceptional with a good working knowledge of the Craft.
I highly recommend Patricia Crowther, Eileen Smith and Kerr Cuhulain as three very knowledgeable authors.
Authors like Raven Grimassi need some discernment when reading her work and the late Scott Cunningham has some exceptional stuff on eclectic ritual, but his general knowledge outside of that is a bit unreliable.



.... and there is also the greek, hindu, roman, welsh, norse, etc .....

Good for you. But which pantheon is your "home" pantheon? With the various rites associated with each pantheon and each god within each pantheon, you need to know their individual rites not knowing them is an insult to those same gods. One needs a "home" pantheon and know the rites of those gods in order to insure that each rite is not hijacked and mutated by the weekend Pagan.



but the key there, is that I am not a modern weekend wiccan who plays dress up .....

Nor am I one of those. Wicca is a religion with initiates; the priests, priestesses and HP's/HPS' that teach the religion and holds the rites. It may as well be college with all of the directly and indirectly related study required to meet the standards required to become a HP/HPS. No "fluffy bunny" crap with us.

Factually, the whole "robes" thing is a construct of Hollywood. Prior to that, the vast majority of Pagan practices were either in the clothes of the day or skyclad. Robes are a modern affectation.



I am a person that lives and breaths every day, what I believe in my faith, the same way I was as a christian, I speak to god directly, as it was god I believed in..... so I did not make appointments with the local pastor and ask them to email god for me

So do we, but then your aire of superiority about it clearly shows that you have a lot more study to do.
Try going to some traditions and talking to them. They will be happy to tell you anything that is not oathbound. But stay away from the Correlians. They are really far off the wall (they think that the planet's pole are going to reverse in 2012).



now I have no issue with you,....

Yes you do. It seems as if almost every statement that I make that might be controversial draws you into turning it into an argument. This thread is just one that is proof of that.



as I am not worried who is winning or losing what war etc....

But you should. Perhaps you are not looking long term, but if Christianity cannot cure itself of the disease of these hate groups, the disease will win. When hate groups take control, everyone loses. History has already proven that ad nauseum.


but I can not help but notice your constant need to dissect peoples posts, including mine....

Okay, so you don't communicate very well and deserve a little "extra" latitude for that? Is that what you are saying?

I take each point and address it in as much of it's entirety and clarity as possible. If you do not like that, then don't do it, yourself.


as then attack our faiths and beliefs constantly....... and what that is saying, simply.... is that you are having trouble reconciling your own words and thoughts with what you preach....

Actualy, I attack things that do not make sense or are completely nonsensical. Should I just let stupid or nonsensical stand as fact, then? would that suit your sensitivities more?

Give up that dream. Wrong is wrong and when it can be demonstrated to be wrong, wrong-headed or just plain stupid, I will address it. Maybe it is because there is too much stupid in the world and people need to start thinking again, that I do it. Maybe I just am sick and tired of hearing stupid, nonsensical and cowardly excuses from people and decided to take my fight against it to the internet.
Maybe it's both. But, no matter the reason at least I can and do stand for something worth fighting for.
I don't ever recommend appeasement or "ignore the problem" tactics that do nothing but help it get worse.


wicca is a peaceful, gentle way of being..... you are a warrior that needs the battle.... think about it..... are you really practising what you preach.... or preaching what you do not practise

Wicca, real Wicca, is about nature.

So, in order to clarify and correct your fluffy bunny philosophy, I will explain the nature of nature. It will help you in your practices in the future.

NATURE is violent. Don't believe it? Look at some National Geographic documentaries or watch a spider web for a few hours for proof of that.

NATURE is dangerous. See above about nature being violent.

Nature is destructive, or have you missed the news of the volcano eruptions, earthquakes, hurricanes/typhoons, tornadoes, etc.. If the Earth really wanted to get rid of our species, it would shake us off like dead fleas. Ask a Hatian about the truth of that.

NATURE is the most powerful thing on the planet.

Nature is beautiful. Stand on a mountain, a secluded beach, at the edge of a marshy pond or lake at sunrise and look out at it all.

NATURE is also warm and loving. Play with a dog, look at any animal mother with her young.

Nature is all of those things. Not just the warm fuzzy things that you think is the all of nature.

Don't even try to explain nature to me. I have been in places where it was easily accessible for my entire life, even in the military. The woods, the beach and sometimes even the mountains have always been accessible to me, places where I can quietly relax and learn the lessons of how it works.



and once again, you have attacked my beliefs, without knowing what they are etc and if you think that I am not allowed to call myself wiccae, please go tell 3 of the people that were part of the american council of witches, that they have no idea what they are talking about and that the help I have given them, is false and fake and doesn't work.....

I have questioned your beliefs, seeing as you have exibited contradictory beliefs and, in the case of Wicca, a complete lack of the basic concepts behind Wicca, of which you are not even a dedicant (let alone an initiate) and Paganism, which you do not properly understand.

How can one be in a NATURE BASED RELIGION and not understand the entirety of nature, instead only knowing the soft side of nature?


now I will once again, politely ask you to stop telling me about what i believe and know...

And I will, politely, tell you that your demonstrated "knowledge" of Wicca, it's gods, Paganism overall and the nature of nature shows that what you think that you know only makes a tiny scratch in the surface of Pagan beliefs.

If you really want to understand and grow in your path, I have a massive and exceptional Craft library and can suggest quite a few good, and truly useful, books to read. Contact me privately and I will be happy to give you some titles to look for to add to your library.

And if you choose not, then that is your choice, your decision and your responsibility for the consequences to your Pagan education.


as you have no idea what is in my head and I am getting a lil sick of you attacking something you know sweet *F* all about.....

Now you are just getting unnecessarily nasty.
As a person on the Pagan path, you cannot work effective magic without being clear in your focus and intent. One cannot focus on doing good with as much hostility as you clearly have.
You wish harm and i wish growth. you may not like my methods, but they do encourage people to examine what I say and you are not helping yourself without an honest examination of what you are really trying to say in this, and other threads. Are you trying to help or are you really suggesting allowing a problem to get worse? only you know what you mean to do, but your words make it pretty clear as to what you are saying people should do.

At this point, that part says that you are not trying to understand much of anything, and that contradicts what you are claiming about yourself.



so go back to your BRITISH traditional wicca, mr american wicca...

Now, you see?
That attitude shows that you have probably been learning from Correlians; the folks that think that the Earths poles will flip in 2012.

They are as tolerant of BTW folks as you are demonstrating. You really can't handle being shown how little you actually know, do you? You need to do some work on yourself.

It is the untaught and half informed eclectics like you that make people look at Pagan beliefs and laugh. You are also demonstrating what I have said about the behavior of extremists within a religion.

Think that I am being too tough on you?

Well, If I just let you go on like a fool and did not take you to task for it, then you would learn nothing.
Now that you have shown that you do not know what you think that you know, you have also shown that you have neither learned anything and refuse to keep that "open mind" open, but there can always be hope.
One cannot have an open mind and poo-poo those that demonstrate greater knowledge in a subject than yourself. You do not know much about Pagan beliefs, nor do you know anything about Wicca, particularly BTW.

Did you do that during the training for your councillor's certificate? If not, then why not take this as a learning experience as well?

You speak and act as if you have made up your mind about what you "know" about a path to which you have neither do nor have belonged.

Take the opportunity granted you, here, and learn from it.



and take that broomstick that you walked over at your handbinding, and sit on it......

And that bit of vitriol only shows that you are not so accepting as you claim to be. A refusal to learn is not acceptance.

And, by the way, it is called a handfasting, not hand binding. All that I ask is that you get your facts correct. Is that asking too much of you? It isn't any less than I ask of myself.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Geesus....both of you...STFU! We get it. Falcon is a bigot, and LDD doesn't know when to give up. We get it already. So much for not having to explain yourself. :rollseyes:

Pasa

[FalconAngel]

Geesus....both of you...STFU! We get it. Falcon is a bigot, and LDD doesn't know when to give up. We get it already. So much for not having to explain yourself. :rollseyes:

Pasa

Actually, I am not a bigot. Can't speak for LDD's issues. For that you will have to ask him.

Nice try, though.

And for the record, I am not the one that turned it into an argument by jumping to conclusions about what I was saying.

[Long Duck Dong]

history lesson time falcon..... read up on helen alexender....or janet bruce or even north berwick and forfar......

I was born in scotland, not nz....

all the high priestress and high priest, yes they practise their own version of nature worship.... using their own different styles.... doesn't make their beliefs any more or less valid than anybody elses.....
but a lot of BTW has incorporated aspects of druidism and other beliefs... including the fact that two of the main forms of BTW is known to be built on a number of beliefs and lies.......

but put all that aside, falcon.... and you will see that all you have done is continue to tell me that I am wrong, I have no idea etc etc etc..... and you are still no closer to knowing anything about what i believe and what I know..... and just how connected I am by my ancestors, to the new forest....

now.... digest that..... please.... and think about it....

I am from scotland, 100% born and bred celtic scottish, I have a long line of ancestors that are celtic / welsh and english, I can easily reveal the last 12 generations and up to 15 generations that were magick users ( for your information, I am using that term as I have no desire to reveal anything more than that ) and I can trace back thru my ancestry even further... some of my ancestors were tortured and killed in the scottish witchhunts.....

you are a initiate in btw

a ancestory vs a joining of a coven.....

you can argue words and meanings and labels all you want.... I have a ancestry that goes back generations but hell.... who really cares.... besides.... you practice a form of what my ancestors helped protect and keep alive...... its just a shame what you practice is a watered down and diluted version.....

enjoy your day.... and lang may your lum reek

[FalconAngel]

history lesson time falcon..... read up on helen alexender....or janet bruce or even north berwick and forfar......

I was born in scotland, not nz....

You never said that you were born in Scotland, but you have said that you are from NZ and even served in the NZ army. SO what does that have to do with any of this?


all the high priestress and high priest, yes they practise their own version of nature worship.... using their own different styles.... doesn't make their beliefs any more or less valid than anybody elses.....

So when did I say that those paths were not valid?

all I said is that you do not know enough to properly practice the Pagan path because you ignore so much of nature in your practise, by your own admittance.


but a lot of BTW has incorporated aspects of druidism and other beliefs... including the fact that two of the main forms of BTW is known to be built on a number of beliefs and lies.......

No. Again, since you are NOT an initiate of BTW, then you cannot possibly have correct information, as that would be oathbound, but since what we do not do is not oathbound, I can definitely tell you that you are wrong again. Many BTW initiates also practice druidism as well, but that does not make Druidism a practice of BTW Wicca.

Nice line of bullshit from you, though, if only it were true.

If you cannot tell the difference than just ask and I will be glad to clarify it, as long as it is not oathbound information.


but put all that aside, falcon.... and you will see that all you have done is continue to tell me that I am wrong,...

Should I kiss your ass and agree when you are wrong? That would be dishonest. I don't do dishonest, but you have been.



......I have no idea etc etc etc..... and you are still no closer to knowing anything about what i believe and what I know..... and just how connected I am by my ancestors, to the new forest....

Actually, I do know what you believe. You dislike BTW's and the fact that your eclectic path of self instruction has allowed your ego to create your "knowledge" base instead of just accepting that you only know so much without a teacher or at least a proper guide.


now.... digest that..... please.... and think about it....

I have and it is you not thinking about it.


I am from scotland, 100% born and bred celtic scottish, I have a long line of ancestors that are celtic / welsh and english,

no real significance in this argument.


I can easily reveal the last 12 generations and up to 15 generations that were magick users

I need not hear the list as you have already stated that you were not practicing in the Craft until recently. so now you are claiming to be a hereditary witch? You said before that you were new to this path and before that path, you said that you had been a ND Christian.

Seems like your latest statements have a lot of contradiction of your previous statements. So which lie is the truth?



( for your information, I am using that term as I have no desire to reveal anything more than that ) and I can trace back thru my ancestry even further... some of my ancestors were tortured and killed in the scottish witchhunts.....

Here's some news for you, it happened to a lot of people, but the witch hunts only ever caught and prosecuted a relatively small number of actual witches, mostly catching other Christians. Particularly in light of the Catholic and protestant persecutions that went on and off between them.


you are a initiate in btw

a ancestory vs a joining of a coven.....

Yes, that means I have been initiated into the mysteries and, by all accounts, you have not. It indicates that I have done all of the required training and work to be initiated and accepted to the mysteries of the gods of the Wiccae.

Based on the contradictions that you have given for all to read, you are, most likely, self-dedicated. Not the same as initiation, which requires one to be accepted into a group by the existing members of said group. Sadly, solitaries cannot initiate them selves, based on that universal constant of what defines any initiation.

You are confusing hereditary with initiatory, but even in hereditary witchcraft, such as is still practiced in places like the Ozarks, here in the US and some parts of Europe and the UK, one still gets initiation into the mysteries of that family practice. One can be born with the power, but training and initiation is what defines a witch.

Both my Daughter and her mother are hereditary Witches, but they lack training. Does that heredity guarantee them the required knowledge? No, it does not and they both know it.
My ex, who has been practicing for the entire past 27 years, comes to me for advice about training our daughter. See? training means something more than just a claim to knowledge. It means knowledge has been gained.


you can argue words and meanings and labels all you want.... I have a ancestry that goes back generations but hell.... who really cares.... besides.... you practice a form of what my ancestors helped protect and keep alive...... its just a shame what you practice is a watered down and diluted version.....

You would be surprised at what I have, going back generations into Scotland, Ireland, England, France and almost half a dozen other European countries, as well as 1st nations heredity. Many of them have done the same, so let's just not go there.



enjoy your day.... and lang may your lum reek

Again with the pissing contest? you must have a desperate need to be angry, for you to go that far.

That is your issue, so please don't inflict you issues on me. You need to grow up and just admit the truth. Until you can do that, there will be no growth for you on this path.

And remember that what you do comes back 3-fold.

You want to fight for something that you are ill-informed about, but you don't want to admit that you are not properly educated on even the basics. That impedes both your growth in the Craft and your power.

If that is what you are happy with, then all I can say to you is good luck with it. I hope that it all works out for you.

[Long Duck Dong]

1) I never said that I have not been initiated.... I said I have no desire to be involved in a coven or spiritual politics
I choose a solitary path as guided to do...

2) druidism predates BTW.... btw draws on aspects of celtic druidism.... stop misreading what I wrote, please

3) the origins of BTW came from people like the scottish, welsh and the celts.... the same people I am descended from..... but I can provide names, dates, locations, clans and movements plus other info.... hence thats why I have contact with the people I do....

4) I said I am descended from a bloodline... I have openly said it.... I have also stated in other threads what happened and why, as to the sharing of knowledge down the lines....

5) some things can never be taught.... people either have the blessing or they don't.... do not mistake learned knowledge for natural blessing ....

6) the threefold law aka part of the wiccan rede, is part of modern wicca.... not the old ways..... and it doesn't refer to things coming back threefold.... it actually means in mind, in body and in soul,
aka as ye harm none, do as ye will.....
so I have nothing to fear as I am not becoming corrupted by my own desire to change that which is not mine to change....

7) lang may your lum reek.... is actually a blessing...it means long may your chimney smoke....
I was not angry at all, I was actually sharing a blessing... but you would know that if you really have any knowledge of BTW and its origins....

its a sad day when even a BTW priest can not recognize a simple blessing.....

[FalconAngel]

You know what, duck?

I no longer care. Almost every post that I have started or replied to, that was even the least bit controversial, you have turned into an argument or pissing contest.

What is your problem? You get proven wrong every time and you seem to think that changing your story every time is going to gain you points.

And in this case, not only did you turn the discussion into an argument over something that I was neither saying or implying, but you had to continue on other tangents in the hopes of winning another un-winnable argument based on your deceptions, lies and factual failures.

Why can you not just be reasonable and approach these things as a discourse rather than a fight against me?

You don't like me? Fine. Then refrain from starting arguments with me.

If that is too damned difficult and adult a thing for you, then placing you on ignore is going to be the only solution left. That should stop you from creating strife where there was none before you started.

I have supported ideals that far more people have believed in than you are willing to admit, but the proof is in the threads. Those same threads that have proven you to be a complete and total hypocrite and liar.

I know that a lot more people here are sick of this bullshit that you not only started, but have repeatedly goaded me into continuing. See, I can admit that I let you prattle on far longer than I should have.

Let's see you admit your errors and lies. Come clean and be honest with us for a change. it isn't an easy route, but it is worth while. I know that from my own experience.

You live for that strife, but the rest of us do not. The whole point of this thread was to understand WHY Christians would rather stand silently by while they silently allow the cancer within their own religion to destroy any legitimacy that it should be entitled to.

You turned it first into a thread where you began blaming me for supposed Christian-bashing, then you took it to Wiccan-bashing as well as an overlapping pissing contest in which your points were, one by one, shown to be either complete lies or misinformation and unrelated to any points on your part.

My story has never changed or wavered, while yours has changed to suit your latest arguments in your failed attempts to prove me wrong.

You expect me and everyone else to believe you when your story changes as a response to each of your points that any of us prove wrong?

Sorry, but no one here is that gullible. I have already proven that I am not and called you on every one of your story changes.

You argue like a creationist, even though the subject is different and if you wanted to be honest then you would not have changed or modified your stories, every time that you have been called on them.

So you deceived us about your religion and other things, but then you got caught in your lies and stories. Shame you haven't learned anything from all of that.

You may be a new Pagan, as you said after being called on the ND Christian statement, but you cannot ever be Wiccan as long as that is the way that you behave. Honesty is core to so much in Paganism, but particularly amongst the Wiccae. And even as a Pagan, you are responsible for your words and actions. Denying that to me matters none at all to me, but denying that fact to yourself is just plain foolish and retards your personal growth.

And that is your loss, not mine or anyone else's.

Like I said, you are responsible for you and your behavior. You are responsible for being offended. It isn't possible for me to offend you unless you wish to be offended.

[Long Duck Dong]

now based on your misreading of something,...since you seem to have forgotten what you have read in other threads, I will attempt to clear it up for you so you can misread and get it wrong again, and try to tell me that I either lied or that I know nothing

*Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong View Post
I can easily reveal the last 12 generations and up to 15 generations that were magick users
I need not hear the list as you have already stated that you were not practicing in the Craft until recently. so now you are claiming to be a hereditary witch? You said before that you were new to this path and before that path, you said that you had been a ND Christian.

Seems like your latest statements have a lot of contradiction of your previous statements. So which lie is the truth? *

__________________________________________________ ___________


I studied a number of other faiths and beliefs..... never did I say I was new to the craft.....thats your assumption

I was born blessed, the knowledge of my path and the wisdom to be shared, was available to me growing up.....as were the people that shared with me..... thats near 40 years....

my time as a christian was when I was studying other faiths and beliefs.... and before you say that no horse can serve two masters.... I serve no master..... I walk with those whom call..... but I am not expecting you to understand the meaning of that......

now that I have cleared that up for you to misunderstand again and get wrong..... I will let you go back to writing up another long winded diatribe of how I am wrong ...... while you still have no idea what path I follow, what beliefs I have or what is in my head.....

[rissababynta]

I'm sorry Falcon, but I have a hard time understanding how you have come to some of your conclusions about LDD. There have been quite a few times in this thread that I've read something that you have said and gone "huh? He didn't say that" or something along those lines.

And there were other people on this thread that complained about this being another bash-fest...why are you making it seem as though he is the only one that turned it into a "pissing contest?"

[shybipinay]

Quote:
I have supported ideals that far more people have believed in than you are willing to admit, but the proof is in the threads. Those same threads that have proven you to be a complete and total hypocrite and liar.

So, is Falcon going to be banned for this like others were or is LDD finally going to be taken to task for his continued crap in these threads? When is the rest of the forum group going to see LDD as the idiot and troll he truly is - just like jeannie saw him, just like we see him, just like a few others have seen him, and now falcon?

[FalconAngel]

now based on your misreading of something,...since you seem to have forgotten what you have read in other threads, I will attempt to clear it up for you so you can misread and get it wrong again, and try to tell me that I either lied or that I know nothing

*Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong View Post
I can easily reveal the last 12 generations and up to 15 generations that were magick users
I need not hear the list as you have already stated that you were not practicing in the Craft until recently. so now you are claiming to be a hereditary witch? You said before that you were new to this path and before that path, you said that you had been a ND Christian.

Seems like your latest statements have a lot of contradiction of your previous statements. So which lie is the truth? *

__________________________________________________ ___________


I studied a number of other faiths and beliefs..... never did I say I was new to the craft.....thats your assumption

I was born blessed, the knowledge of my path and the wisdom to be shared, was available to me growing up.....as were the people that shared with me..... thats near 40 years....

my time as a christian was when I was studying other faiths and beliefs.... and before you say that no horse can serve two masters.... I serve no master..... I walk with those whom call..... but I am not expecting you to understand the meaning of that......

now that I have cleared that up for you to misunderstand again and get wrong..... I will let you go back to writing up another long winded diatribe of how I am wrong ...... while you still have no idea what path I follow, what beliefs I have or what is in my head.....

That's it. You want to argue and everyone here has grown weary of it. Particularly me.

Grow up and get your facts all straight.

And when you give us a story about what you are, do or have done. Stick with the facts instead of changing things to suit your desire to be right, particularly with me.

I was hoping for better from you, but I guess that was a wasted effort.

You just made the Ignore list.

[FalconAngel]

I'm sorry Falcon, but I have a hard time understanding how you have come to some of your conclusions about LDD. There have been quite a few times in this thread that I've read something that you have said and gone "huh? He didn't say that" or something along those lines.

And there were other people on this thread that complained about this being another bash-fest...why are you making it seem as though he is the only one that turned it into a "pissing contest?"

He has not been right enough to validate the statements that he has made. certainly not after changing his story, not once, not twice but at least 4 times thus far.

Remember the thread about miss McMillen? He made a bunch of claims that he was all for LGBT rights while simultaneously saying that we should all just deal with the status quo and not stand up for those rights; then he back-peddeled, saying that he never said that, when called on it. I am not the only person to call him on that, either, but I am made the bad guy for doing so.

Well if calling people on their lies makes me the bad guy, then so be it. But shooting the messenger will not change the message one bit.

He suckered me into the argument and, like any good predatory species, once I was in it I intended to win it. That is my fault and responsibility. He needs to own up to his.

I win arguments through the facts, but he tries to win through changing his facts to suit the points that he lost on. THAT is dishonest to a degree that is abhorrent. It is lying and I have zero tolerance for that kind of liar.

Has anyone else noticed that when he responds to most posts in an argument, that he rarely responds to individual points? Doing it that way allows him to address points that were never made or it allows him to change the subject to avoid answering those points. That kind of thing is common when trying to avoid addressing an issue or be honest about it.
We may all be guilty of that at some point or another, but he is consistent with it.

But here is the thing, my story has never been "modified" in any way, to suit my side of the argument. But Duck decided that when he was backed into a corner, he would change his story to suit the purpose of escape from that corner.
A good strategy in a shooting war, or fight, but not a good strategy when trying to make a point in an argument/debate/discussion.

And in his last post, right after yours, he even changed his story again.

Look back at his thread posts. He changes things to suit his point and at one point, brings up a heritage that contradicts or conflicts with what he had said in previous statements that he, himself, made about his theological background.

That is something that I have never done and never will do.

HE drew me into a fight where none was necessary and, in retrospect, I should have just told him to stop and actually try to understand what was being said, which he responded to in the first place.
Instead I allowed him to draw me into another argument and, in all honesty, I neither need nor want his angst in my life. Let him destroy his own life. That is his responsibility, after all.
So he is now on ignore, where he belongs.

[Darkside2009]

Like I said, you are responsible for you and your behavior. You are responsible for being offended. It isn't possible for me to offend you unless you wish to be offended.

Ah! A chink of light shines through to Falcon.

Does this mean you will no longer be offended by Phelps, Engle, et al but see them, as everyone else does, as just some crack-pots exercising THEIR right to freedom of speech as enshrined in your Constitution?

If this new found perception will mean you no longer trying to ram your beliefs down other peoples throats, or calling them cowards or liars, simply because they will not react to other people in the way you wish them too. Then it will be most welcome.

[shybipinay]

Bravo Falcon! Very well said, argued and eloquently stated. We're so happy that you are able to pick apart LDD's arguments so skillfully. Other have done what you did and got banned for it. We probably will too. What's amazing is the fact that so many of the die hard forum members don't see LDD the way others of us do. Yet all the facts are right there in his thread posts. Everything you said he has done is so obvious when reading all his posts.

Keep up the good fight and perhaps LDD will finally get it. Maybe the others in his boat will too (before it sinks).

We're just waiting for Cat to revive the campfire thread. hahahahahaha . . . . .

[TwylaTwobits]

I have pretty much stayed out of this thread because every time I went to post there was just more bullshit to wade through.

Falcon, you have started the thread knowing it would be seen as Christian bashing, something you do quite a bit. Duckie babe, I love you dearly but you have allowed yourself to rise to his bait and turn this thread into a crap fest.

From where I'm sitting no one has the right to tell another their religious beliefs are wrong or even what those beliefs are. If all you want to do is downgrade someone and their religion then find another board. This board is about bisexuals and the issues that arise for LGBT. It is not a fucking seminary to take apart and analyze religions. So good use your ignore, but remember you and only you are responsible for what you post.

[Darkside2009]

Bravo Falcon! Very well said, argued and eloquently stated.

Eloquent? Lol

We're so happy that you are able to pick apart LDD's arguments so skillfully.

Would that be the Royal we're?

Other have done what you did and got banned for it. We probably will too.

There's that Royal we again.

What's amazing is the fact that so many of the die hard forum members don't see LDD the way others of us do.

Yes, it's called TOLERANCE, try it sometime.

Yet all the facts are right there in his thread posts. Everything you said he has done is so obvious when reading all his posts.

Keep up the good fight and perhaps LDD will finally get it.

Duck is getting presents? Should I feel slighted?

Maybe the others in his boat will too (before it sinks).

Ooh! Santa Claus is coming to town, keep those oars moving, the Devil wants to go water-sking on Friday.

We're just waiting for Cat to revive the campfire thread. hahahahahaha . . . . .

Altogether now... Ing Gang Gooley Gooley Watcha...

[Long Duck Dong]

gotta love falcon......

dam I am good cos I have referred to my time as a christian a few years ago in the site...long before this thread

my profile has had me listed as a wiccan since I joined Feb 7, 2006

I have referred to my heritage a number of times over the years....

yet, I changed versions of events 4 times to win this thread......

talk about forward planning.....lol.....

I have to admit, that if I am lying about my past and history in this thread.... I am doing bloody well to plan things years in advance, in a attempt to win the unwinnable....

[FalconAngel]

Like I said, you are responsible for you and your behavior. You are responsible for being offended. It isn't possible for me to offend you unless you wish to be offended.

Very true. That apples to everyone. Even you.


Ah! A chink of light shines through to Falcon.

Shines through to me? Did you miss the fact that I am the one who said it? I guess not.


Does this mean you will no longer be offended by Phelps, Engle, et al but see them, as everyone else does, as just some crack-pots exercising THEIR right to freedom of speech as enshrined in your Constitution?

You completely miss the point, again.

Your not an alt of LDD are you? Because you are certainly acting like him.

Whether those groups offend me or not is of no real consequence, to be honest. What I do about them is a matter of simply standing up for what is right.

One would have hoped that someone, such as you, that feels so superior to me would be able to have figured that out faster than me, not slower than me.
I guess your superiority isn't all that your ego thinks it is. Particularly since all that you do is throw contemptuous insults and useless smart-ass remarks. If only your arguments were as smart as your ass appears to be. But then most of your posts show that you do have a lot of experience talking out of that ass, since your mouth knows better.


If this new found perception will mean you no longer trying to ram your beliefs down other peoples throats, or calling them cowards or liars, simply because they will not react to other people in the way you wish them too. Then it will be most welcome.

It is not a "new found perception". It is one person standing up for what is right, something that you have yet to do here.

Telling people what to do? I asked why they didn't do anything that would protect or, dare I suppose, restore some legitimacy to their religion, which they have lost by allowing those same hate groups unopposed opportunity to spread the hate that gives their religion a bad name.

I suggested a cure for Christianity's internal disease. If Christians do not wish to use the cure, then that is their loss, not mine.

You and LDD see that as "Christian-bashing". Think about that for a minute, as difficult that has, so far, been for you.
If I really wanted to "Christian-bash", then I would not be stating the obvious way to protect themselves from their own internal cancer; I would let them die off from their own refusal to protect themselves from their own internal cancer.

A "Christian-basher" would not do what I have done. "Christian-bashers" would have said that they should stay silent and keep showing their ignorance.
Based on what you have chosen to call a "Christian-basher", you would call an MD treating a disease a murderer.

I never said anything like that, but then you perceive it, so in your mind it must be that way. Check the posts again, this time with a mind set of critical examination of the facts instead of prejudicial presumption.

It's your choice. You can either continue being a hemmorroid or you can be reasonable.

Maybe you are intentionally missing the points in order to allow yourself to be the jerk that gets me into another argument over something that you cannot win.

Sorry, but Duck did it and I am not allowing you to do it to me.

You made the Ignore list now, too, because I have no need of your trollish and childish angst games.

[FalconAngel]

Bravo Falcon! Very well said, argued and eloquently stated. We're so happy that you are able to pick apart LDD's arguments so skillfully. Other have done what you did and got banned for it. We probably will too. What's amazing is the fact that so many of the die hard forum members don't see LDD the way others of us do. Yet all the facts are right there in his thread posts. Everything you said he has done is so obvious when reading all his posts.

Keep up the good fight and perhaps LDD will finally get it. Maybe the others in his boat will too (before it sinks).

We're just waiting for Cat to revive the campfire thread. hahahahahaha . . . . .

So you are just trolls when you are bored?

Sorry, but that is all the response that you are worthy of.

[Darkside2009]

Very true. That apples to everyone. Even you.



Shines through to me? Did you miss the fact that I am the one who said it? I guess not.



(No, that is why I drew it to your attention, so you couldn't accuse me of putting words in your mouth.)


It is this very point that people have being trying to impress on you since you started this thread. Most people disregard the words of a crack-pot as just that. But even deranged- crackpots have an opinion and are freely entitled to express it, provided their statements stay within the law.

Your Constitution guarantees them that right, just as it guarantees yours. I have no legal right to prevent them expressing any opinion they wish as long as they remain within the law.

Now I could stand up and say they are wrong but what would be the point? They are crack-pots, they don't listen to dissenting opinions so it would be a complete waste of my time and effort.

I don't know about you, but I have other more important things to do with my day than to respond to every stupid person I hear expressing his/her opinion. Life is just too short to waste on such people.


You completely miss the point, again.

Your not an alt of LDD are you? Because you are certainly acting like him.

Whether those groups offend me or not is of no real consequence, to be honest. What I do about them is a matter of simply standing up for what is right.


Haranguing Christians in a Bisexual web site is hardly standing up for what is right. They wouldn't be in here if they held the same views as Phelps, Engle et al, now would they?

There are as many different views on any given subject among Christians, as there are among Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists, Pagans, Moslems, or any other group you care to think of.

Yet you make the gross over simplication and generalisation that they are all the same and think alike, when nothing could be further from the truth.

It would be like me saying that all Americans are gun-toting, crackpots that run around schools killing their fellow pupils, just because a few individual Americans have committed such atrocities.

One would have hoped that someone, such as you, that feels so superior to me would be able to have figured that out faster than me, not slower than me.


That is simply YOUR opinion on how best to act towards these crack-pots. Did you think they were going to hear you in here?

Try picketing their church or writing to your local papers if you feel that strongly about them. In the end, they will have their opinion and you will have yours, neither of you will have influenced the other. Waste of time.


I guess your superiority isn't all that your ego thinks it is. Particularly since all that you do is throw contemptuous insults and useless smart-ass remarks. If only your arguments were as smart as your ass appears to be. But then most of your posts show that you do have a lot of experience talking out of that ass, since your mouth knows better.


I see, so calling someone a liar, hypocrite and a coward was not a contemptuous insult?

Calling Christians, mindless-drones and hypocrites is not contemptuous?

Insulting Christians religious beliefs, time and time again, is not contemptuous?

Your patronising manner toward Christians and any who disagree with you is not contemptuous?

I would simply respond to that, if you can't take it yourself, then don't inflict it on others.


It is not a "new found perception". It is one person standing up for what is right, something that you have yet to do here.


Again that is YOUR opinion, to which you are entitled.

Telling people what to do? I asked why they didn't do anything that would protect or, dare I suppose, restore some legitimacy to their religion, which they have lost by allowing those same hate groups unopposed opportunity to spread the hate that gives their religion a bad name.


No you didn't you berated and bullied to try and get your own way. When the response, or reaction, you sought, wasn't forthcoming.

As to your choice of words, restore some legitimacy to their religion, it reeks of condescension. Christians have every right to their religious beliefs, they do not need your permission to hold them.


Religion, any religion, is entirely a matter for the individual and his or her conscience.

I have not once on this site, since I have been here, seen any Christian make any disparaging remarks about anyone else's choice of religion, or insensitive remarks about the religion itself. That includes your own personal choice.

Yet Christians are expected to tolerate such insults thrown at them daily, and yet you still expect us to support you in your arguments against other people's opinions.


I suggested a cure for Christianity's internal disease.


Again, that is your own personal opinion that Christianity has an internal disease. Christians would not agree with you. The Christian faith brings hope and comfort to millions around the world, so your prognosis of a diseased organism is somewhat premature.

I'm sure if Christians wanted your advice on their religion they would come and ask you for it. The fact that there isn't a queue of Christians forming outside your house might indicate that they neither want nor need your advice.


If Christians do not wish to use the cure, then that is their loss, not mine.


It's like this, if your car needs fixed you don't call a plumber.



You and LDD see that as "Christian-bashing". Think about that for a minute, as difficult that has, so far, been for you.


I can't speak for Duck, but personally I just see it as the actions of a pompous, arrogant man, full of his own self-importance. As evidence, what other man, after just calling a man a liar, hypocrite and coward, would have have the arrogance to then proffer his choice of book titles to further the education of the man he had just insulted?

Just what were you expecting him to say? 'Hold on I'll just get a pen?'



If I really wanted to "Christian-bash", then I would not be stating the obvious way to protect themselves from their own internal cancer; I would let them die off from their own refusal to protect themselves from their own internal cancer.


Again that is your prognosis, I would suggest you mind your own business and attend to your own religious beliefs and let Christians tend to theirs.


A "Christian-basher" would not do what I have done.


They would, and do. Attempting to belittle a person's religious beliefs is an attempt to belittle them.

"Christian-bashers" would have said that they should stay silent and keep showing their ignorance.



Once again, because you did not get the responses you wanted from Christians, you refer to it as showing THEIR IGNORANCE, and not simply disagreeing with your opinion.




Based on what you have chosen to call a "Christian-basher", you would call an MD treating a disease a murderer.



Now you are making a silly attempt to put words in my mouth, adopting a position that you can argue against.

Again, I did not ask you for your opinion on my religious beliefs. As well as that I wouldn't consider you as a doctor. Pompous ass? yes. Doctor? no.



never said anything like that, but then you perceive it, so in your mind it must be that way. Check the posts again, this time with a mind set of critical examination of the facts instead of prejudicial presumption.

It's your choice. You can either continue being a hemmorroid or you can be reasonable.



Oh! I see now, anyone that agrees with you is reasonable, anyone that doesn't is a haemorrhoid. No one explained that to me when I joined this site.

Maybe you are intentionally missing the points in order to allow yourself to be the jerk that gets me into another argument over something that you cannot win.



Again, the self-pity, someone else dragged you into an argument. He made me do it. That ranks up there with, the dog ate my homework. Pathetic! If you will persist in trying to force your opinions down other people's throats, you really shouldn't be too surprised if they vomit over your shoes.

Sorry, but Duck did it and I am not allowing you to do it to me.


Again, the self-pity, you and you alone are responsible for what you post, not Duck, or myself, or anyone else. You are a grown man, not a five year old.




You made the Ignore list now, too, because I have no need of your trollish and childish angst games.

I hope I get free parking at this club, or at least a T-shirt. One other thing, when can I expect the cheque for all these history lessons I've been giving you?

Oh! Well, you can have this last one for free. Since you claim to know the Bible better than most Christians, and stated the Jews, Hindus etc didn't go door to door spreading their religion.

This is just between you and I alright, as I think the rest of the World already knows this.

(Whispers in Falcon's ear) It was Jewish Missionaries spread the Christian religion to the Gentiles, the rest, as they say, is history.


Or would you want a second opinion on that?

Goodnight! Doctor, I'll miss giving you the history lessons, I was counting on the money to supplement the pension in my old age.

[Pasadenacpl2]

So...let me get this straight. If you were Christian bashing, you'd say nothing...but by saying something you are not Christian bashing? My, that is an odd way of looking at things.

I don't think you're Christian bashing. I think you're a bigot. I think you have a hard on for acting like a second rate Edward G. Robinson (Where's your Messiah naaoooww?) every time you see something you don't like. And you've just spent three pages swearing up and down that you aren't doing exactly what you've been doing for months.

http://www.brainygamer.com/.a/6a00e3982444028833012876115658970c-800wi

But shine on you happy star, Falcon. One day you'll find your bliss.

Pasa

You did, at least, recognize the sort of response Shybipinay posted as being what it was. I'll give you that.

[tenni]

Shybipinay wrote:
"perhaps LDD will finally get it. Maybe the others in his boat will too (before it sinks)"
I believe that there is some truth to what you write.

Falcon wrote:
"So you (shybipinay?) are just trolls when you are bored? "
What do you mean Falcon?

Pasa wrote:
"You did, at least, recognize the sort of response Shybipinay posted as being what it was. I'll give you that."

What do you mean Pasa? Are you stating that you see Shybipinay as "trolls" or what?

[Darkside2009]

Bravo Falcon! Very well said, argued and eloquently stated.

Eloquent? Lol

We're so happy that you are able to pick apart LDD's arguments so skillfully.

Would that be the Royal we're?

Other have done what you did and got banned for it. We probably will too.

There's that Royal we again.

What's amazing is the fact that so many of the die hard forum members don't see LDD the way others of us do.

Yes, it's called TOLERANCE, try it sometime.

Yet all the facts are right there in his thread posts. Everything you said he has done is so obvious when reading all his posts.

Keep up the good fight and perhaps LDD will finally get it.

Duck is getting presents? Should I feel slighted?

Maybe the others in his boat will too (before it sinks).

Ooh! Santa Claus is coming to town, keep those oars moving, the Devil wants to go water-sking on Friday.

We're just waiting for Cat to revive the campfire thread. hahahahahaha . . . . .

Altogether now... Ing Gang Gooley Gooley Watcha...

[temjintorres]

well, erm... totally aside from the so-called Christian bashing, i gotta say Falcon brought that Anti-Gay Bill to my attention! CHEESE AND RICE (Can't use the Lord's name in vain, good Christian that i am lol) i can't even believe that such a bill has even half a chance of getting passed! Anywhere in the world for that matter! DEATH PENALTY?!?!?!?! I mean this smacks of that Austrian bloke with the toothbrush moustache in Germany, back in the '30s, who did that stuff to the Jews... (always forget his name) wow. The proposition of the damn thing is a bloody injustice! Next up it'll be the camps, and the Final Solution. Couldn't believe my eyes when i read that. Thanks for enlightening a brother!

[FalconAngel]

So...let me get this straight. If you were Christian bashing, you'd say nothing...but by saying something you are not Christian bashing? My, that is an odd way of looking at things.

You are right, but you don't get it.

If I wanted to Christian bash, then I would outright bash them, ALL of them; not make statements as to what is in their religion's long term best interest, by standing up against the self-destructive hate-mongers within, the "cancer" if you will, within their religion.


I don't think you're Christian bashing. I think you're a bigot.

Perhaps you should look up that word. Take another look at what I initially said and rethink that statement. Bigot doesn't mean what you are appearing to think that it means. Were I a Bigot, I would not even suggest that the "good" Christians stand up to the "bad" Christians.

I would just let them wallow in their own self-destruction. But I didn't. I asked why not and suggested reasons why they should. Intelligent and reasonable reasons.

What a horrible thing to do; try to help a group protect their own religion from it's own corruption. I should instead work on helping them destroy themselves, then, shouldn't I.

I think that you just want another fight, well forget it.


I think you have a hard on for acting like a second rate Edward G. Robinson (Where's your Messiah naaoooww?) every time you see something you don't like. And you've just spent three pages swearing up and down that you aren't doing exactly what you've been doing for months.

And you get a hard on for misinterpreting facts and love to use those misinterpretations as an excuse to behave badly.

If it isn't too much effort for you, take a second look at what I was saying at the start and ask yourself if you are giving a fair assessment or are you just siding with LDD because he opposes me.



But shine on you happy star, Falcon. One day you'll find your bliss.

Not while people still, intentionally refuse to understand what I have been trying to say.


Pasa

You did, at least, recognize the sort of response Shybipinay posted as being what it was. I'll give you that.

[TwylaTwobits]

Falcon,

You do realize there are several denominations of "Christians". You can't tar and feather an entire group because there are a few bad apples. Point the finger at the extremists and only the extremists. Don't alienate other supporters with the idea every single one of them needs to take a stand. For all you know their stand is praying to their God that he intercedes and shows the fools the true way of His word.

There are several reasons why people keep to themselves, backlash from people like Engle and Phelps create problems for every Christian.

And it's not as simple as the Aaron Tippin song that says "you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything."

Living a life far away from the source of conflict it is easy to turn a blind eye. Not saying it's right or it's wrong but activism is NOT for everyone. Anyone can sign a petition, but there are Christians working with Amnesty International and trying to help in Uganda, Darfur and other outposts of what we view as barbaric civilizations at great risk to themselves.

Be happy that people aren't ignoring the problem instead of screaming that everyone needs to do something. Sometimes the things going on behind the scenes are deeper than you can imagine and they will answer for action or inaction and consequences of same on their judgement day. But it is not for anyone on this earth to judge another person's worth or the value of their religion or how they follow their religious beliefs.

So with all due respect, I ask that you stick to talking about Engle, a person who does truly deserves to be bashed. Not because he's a Christian, but because he's a true fucking idiot.

[Long Duck Dong]

I can not help but wonder if somebody has thought about the danger of vocal christians standing up to *police their own *

if they were to stand up and *police * their own, it would easily have a over flow effect on LGBT rights and make the number of opponents a lot larger.....

many many christians are silent on the lgbt stance, we should be thankful for that, not knocking them for their silence on a issue where they have no power anyway, instead of trying to wake sleeping dogs......

as a wise man once said ( actually it was forrest gump ) stupid is as stupid does .....

[tenni]

"So with all due respect, I ask that you stick to talking about Engle, a person who does truly deserves to be bashed. Not because he's a Christian, but because he's a true fucking idiot."

Twyla
I agree with you there for sure. What I am puzzled about is that just before the above statement you refer to Uganda and then include Darfur? I am aware of the genocide in Darfur and that it affects a lot of women and men but unaware that the killers had also singled out gays?

Falcon
What Twyla posts is very valid in my opinion. I'm not sure if they are called by the same name in your country but I would expect that Unitarians (very liberal Christians) would speak out about the proposed law in Uganda.

[TwylaTwobits]

Tenni,

I mentioned Darfur as one of the more troubling things going on in the world, they may not be killing because they are homosexual but they are killing an entire race. I can guarantee there are homosexuals among them, because they are targeted for tribe rather than sexuality does it make it less of a salient point?

And thanks for your support.

[tenni]

I agree that it is one of the huge failures of our civilized Western countries to more effectively deal with what has been going on in Darfur. It is very complicated and a bit simplistic to write that it is a tribal conflict. There are also other parts of Sudan where similar conflicts are going on. Darfur is the area that is getting some publicity.

One point about Darfur and the Uganda situation is that if we (the UN, western societies) can do nothing to stop the genocide in Darfur (accusations that the Sudanese government is involved as well as China are points not to be ignored) how can we stop a law by the legally elected government of Uganda? It would be good if we could but our governments seem not to be able to stop thngs like this. (or "we" do not really care enough?)

[TwylaTwobits]

I agree, Tenni. There are times when you just have to back away and realize that the Western world does not always know best. But genocide should never be tolerated, in my opinion, and I wish that all the publicity that Darfur was getting would end that conflict.

I really don't think we can change the Ugandan goverment with the way things are now, it would take a massive peacekeeping movement sanctioned by the UN after a UN sanctioned coup. But in the end would it be better? We have areas in our countries where homosexuals are being killed for no reason other than they are not straight.

There are many things in this world I wish I could change, but most of all I wish that everyone could be seen as just human.

[tenni]

This may be awful in some people's minds but if I have to rank the two offences (I shouldn't ) I am more disturbed by the genocide in Darfur. I attended a meeting perhaps three or four years ago. This horrible action had been going on for more than two years then. It has not changed. The rape of women and murder of men was told to us. The humanitarian aid that was to be given then was blocked. Women were raped as they gathered twigs for fires to feed their children. Their legs broken so that they could not get away. They were left to die if they could not crawl back to the protected refugee camps. Even these refugee camps were invaded. The Sudanese government did nothing to stop this. In fact, they encouraged it. Aid workers were prevented from stopping the events. I don' think that "we" should have backed away but we seem to have done that.

The "legal" executions of gays in Iran is another place where injustice is done. I think in the case of Uganda that it would be improper for the UN to approve an invasion. I do not see that happening nor do I think that it would be appropriate. Sanctions against Uganda by western nations may be more effective. A country's sovereignty is something not to be ignored even in this case of legalizing the killing of gays. I think that it is more a government issue than expecting a religion to speak out about this situation in Uganda. The reality is that there are few religions who approve GLBT people and so how can we expect them to speak out against this when our so called secular governments do not?

[TwylaTwobits]

This may be awful in some people's minds but if I have to rank the two offences (I shouldn't ) I am more disturbed by the genocide in Darfur. I attended a meeting perhaps three or four years ago. This horrible action had been going on for more than two years then. It has not changed. The rape of women and murder of men was told to us. The humanitarian aid that was to be given then was blocked. Women were raped as they gathered twigs for fires to feed their children. Their legs broken so that they could not get away. They were left to die if they could not crawl back to the protected refugee camps. Even these refugee camps were invaded. The Sudanese government did nothing to stop this. In fact, they encouraged it. Aid workers were prevented from stopping the events. I don' think that "we" should have backed away but we seem to have done that.


Not in my mind, I feel the same way.


And yes, sanctions might make a difference for awhile, but when all eyes turn away they are right back to doing it and making sure this time there are no witnesses to speak out about the crime. They do have Idi Amin to learn from after all.... The Last King of Scotland was a powerful movie but not nearly as horrifying as the abuses that took place under his reign of terror.

[Lienda]

Not many fundamentalists I meat understand gays. That's already an obvious problem. On the other hand, I think most fundies in my world would be against beating and killing people. (-.- the ones I'm around anyway.)

As for "Love thy neighbor" that is usualy considered by general fundamentalists as "give him the kind of respect you expect to be given to you." That would include correcting someone, if you felt they needed it.

[FalconAngel]

Various "christians" disagree on things right down to the musical songs. Some of them do it openly, others don't. I agree that there are way too many that avoid being bitten. However, if you want actual christians to stop this, the problem here is whether enough Christians will agree or understand homosexuals.

As for "Love thy neighbor" that is usualy considered by general fundamentalists as "give him the kind of respect you expect to be given to you." That would include correcting someone, if you felt they needed it.

Excellent points, all.

But the reason that I started the thread was to bring about some discussion on the "why" concerning the lack of opposition against Christian groups that create, and attempt to force on society, the hate and lies that do, in fact, go against the basic core beliefs of their religion.

Sadly, those who always assume that I am a "bigot" or "Christian basher" have taken to being offended at the mere suggestion of Christians standing up to protect their religion from those that have been destroying it from within.

It degenerated from there by people who have less respect for Christianity than they think that I do; people that were offended for the Christians and people that want to be offended for whatever personal reason.

Being offended for a group, not one's own, shows that one believes that said group cannot be offended for themselves, implying inferiority, which is the worst sort of bigotry because no one notices it.