Lest we Forget

[Darkside2009]

So, for those like Darkside and LDD, get over yourselves.We already know that, as a nation, we are not perfect. We do not NEED you to remind us since there are plenty of our own to remind us of that.

Consider this then:-

I cannot speak for LDD, but I like many on this side of the Pond lost Family and other Relatives in both World Wars. I will not stand idly by whilst people like you make stupid, insensitive remarks that besmirch the ultimate sacrifice they made.

The following is taken from your own American War Dept, Army Pictorial Service for the Information and Education Division, Information film No.7

Following the First World War in 1918, the American Army numbered 3,700,000. In line with the Treaty obligations your Naval tonnage was reduced and your Army shrank, until in 1925 your Army numbered 134,000.

The 1930's saw the start of the Depression Worldwide and the image of unemployment lines and mass migration seeking a better life, is familiar to us all.

In 1931, Japan invaded Manchuria without warning. The American Second of State, Stimson declared the US will not recognise territory taken by force, or any situation, treaty or agreement brought about by aggression.

In 1933, Hitler became German Chancellor and the Nazi Party took over Germany. He declared, 'Today we rule Germany, tomorrow the World'.

In 1935, Mussolini attacked Ethiopia.

In the American Congress, Senator Hiram Johnson of California stated,'We want no war, we'll have no war, save in defence of our own people, or our own honour'

The Neutrality Act was passed in America in which no arms for sale to Nations at war. No Nation at war could buy any manufactured arms or ammunition from the US.

In 1936, civil war erupts in Spain. German and Italian armies fought on General Franco's side against the elected Spanish Government. For the first time the American public could see in their news-reels, great cities being squashed flat, and civilians bombed and killed.

In 1936, the American Institute of Public Opinion, known as the Gallup Poll asked a representative cross-section of American people:-
If another World War develops in Europe...should America take part again? 95% answered No.

The so-called Cash and Carry Amendment was made to the Neutrality Act, whereby raw materials only, could be bought, but the buyer had to come and get them and pay cash on the line.

In 1937, Japan launched all out war in China.

In Sept, 1937, the Gallup Poll asked: In the present fight between Japan and China, are your sympathies with either side? The results, for China 43% for Japan 2% Undecided 55%

The Neutrality Act only barred sales to Nations at war. Japan had not declared war on China, so America continued to supply scrap metal and aviation fuel to Japan.

In March 1938, Hitler occupies Austria.

In September 1938, Hitler meets the Democracies at Munich and promises peace in our time, if Britain and France give him that part of German-speaking, Checkoslovakia known as the Sudatenland. Britain and France conceded this, hoping to avert war.

German-American Bunds march and hold rallies in America.

Germany spends millions re-arming and Tokio converts Japan into a vast munitions plant. These supposedly poor nations spent large sums on re-armaments.

"We have actually been at war since the day when we lifted the flag of our revolution against the Democratic World" Mussolini

"The Germans are a noble and unique race to whom the Earth was given by the Grace of God" Hiler, Mein Kampf page 827

"The World must come to look up to our Emporer as the Great Ruler of all Nations" Lord Hotta, Premier of Japan 1858

In Dec 1938, Gallup asked, Should the US increase the strength of its army, navy and air-force? The answer Yes 85%

The Military Affairs Committee of the US, led by Rep Andrew J. May of Kentucky. The Naval Affairs Committee, led by Second of Navy, Charles Edison asked for increased spending. The latter for an increase of 25% of Naval tonnage, in view of the grave International Situation.

The US military budget increased to 1.5 Billion in 1939, the largest sum voted in peacetime to that date. In 1943 it had grown to 81 Billion.

On March 14th 1939, Hitler occupies the remainder of Checkaslovakia.

On 7th April 1939, Italy attacks Albania.

Roosevelt sends a letter to Hitler and Mussolini asking them to respect the Independance of 33 countries. Hitler openly makes fun of this letter in the Reichstag. That was the only answer Roosevelt received.

On Sept 1st 1939, Hitler invades Poland. England and France had a Treaty with Poland. On Sept 3rd 1939, Britain declares war on Germany. France follows suit within hours of Britain's declaration.

In Sept 1939 Gallup asked: What country do you consider responsible for causing the war? The answer Germany 82%

Roosevelt asks Congress with regard to selling ammunition, changing the Neutrality Act.

Sen.Gerald P.Nye, North Dakota stated: "The arms embargo is far too great a security to American Peace to permit its surrender without a last ditch fight"

Sen. Elbert D.Thomas, Utah stated: "The Embargo Act, as it now stands, is one sided and works entirely to the advantage of one side. Therefore the Embargo Act should be modified"

In Oct 1939 Gallup asked should we change the Neutrality Act so we can sell war supplies? Answer Yes 57%

Shortly after Representatives changed the Neutrality Act, arms embargo was repealed, arms were now for sale but the buyer had to come and get them. American ships were still barred from the combat zones.

Meanwhile with Japan still trying to conquer the Chinese. Americans began to wonder if they could conquer 400 million Chinese they might be able to exclude America from the Pacific.

In June of 1939 the previous Gallup Poll concering the Japanese and Chinese was asked again. This time 74% sympathised with China.

Congress passes Export Control Act, increasing cut-offs of scrap iron, aviation fuel and other strategic items follow. Exports were curtailed to limits which Congress willing to risk, realising that there was a possibility that these would be used against the US. To cut them off completely would provoke an attack which they were not prepared to resist. In the Summer of 1941 all exports ceased.

On April 9th 1940, Hitler overuns Denmark and Norway.

On May 10th 1940, Hitler invades Holland and Belgium. In June 1940 Italy declares war. The British and the remains of the French army retreat to Dunkirk.

On June 22nd 1940, France signs surrender to Germany.

Germany now on the Atlantic coast. Some of the conquered countries had pocessions outside of Europe. Greenland, Iceland, Martinque, French Guiana, Dutch Guina. Curaco, Miquelon. Dutch oil at Curaco, French bases in Martinque. French Naval base at Dakar in Africa as possible invasion of South America.

In Brazil there were 1 million Germans resident, Herman Goring Glider Clubs had been established. Also in Brazil 260,000 Japanese. In Equador, within easy bombing range of the Panama Canal, German air-lines had been established. German pilots were Reserve officers of the Luftwaffe. In Argentina, German Athletic Clubs, exclusively for Germans were modeled on Hitler Youth lines.

In Havana, a conference for the Defence of the Americas took place on July 22nd 1940, 20 other American Republics took part. Cordell Hull, Sec of State US puts forward the motion not to permit the invasion of their Hemisphere by any power or combination of powers.

Roosevelt calls for production of 50,000 military and naval planes and the construction of a two ocean navy, to be completed in 1944. In 1940 it was just an idea on paper.

To give you an idea of American Military strength at the time, May 1940 :-
Army 187,000, Navy 120,000, Airforce 22,387. The infantry had 488 machine guns, 235 pieces of field artillery, 10 light tanks, 18 medium tanks.

The National Guard was called out for Federal Service and Congress passed the Selective Service Act (conscription)

German blitz on Britain.

The first line of American defence in the Atlantic was the British Fleet, that might go to the Nazis if Britain lost the war leaving America unprotected.

The British Navy had already had to destroy the French Navy at Oran to stop it falling into Nazi control.

In America the decision was taken that Britain must not fall. In exchange for 50 old destroyers from the the First World War transferred from America to Britain, Britain in return gave bases from New Foundland to British Guiana, giving increased security to America and increased safety to the Panama Canal.

Assist Sec.of State Berle stated: " From 1936 on, it became increasingly clear to the World, that Italy, Germany and Japan were pursuing a common pattern of aggression"

On 27th Sept 1940 Axis Powers sign the pact of Berlin, agreeing to support one another by all economic and military means if one of them was attacked by a country not in Europe or in China-Japan conflict. This was aimed squarely at the US.

America still had isolationists, Charles Lindbergh among them stating that England was losing the war.

Others, such as Wendell Willkie stated:" England will not only survive, England will win"

In Jan 1941 Gallup poll asked:-
Should we keep out of the war or aid Britain...even at the risk of war? Answer Yes 68%

Roosevelt asks for additional supplies to be turned over to those at war with aggressor nations, "To act as an arsenal for them as well as ourselves"

The Lend Lease Act was passed in
House 317 to 71
Senate 60 to 31

It was ironically enough Bill No.1776 but Britain had to come and get them.

On April 6th, 1941 Hitler invaded Yugoslavia and Greece.

On June 22nd 1941, Hitler invades Russia and Lend Lease is extended to Russia, Greece and Yugoslavia. America was convinced it was on the list of countries to be invaded.

"Two Worlds are in conflict...two philosophies of life...one of these Worlds must break asunder" Adolf Hitler

What would the American position have been if Britain, Russia and China were conquered? Conquest of Britain would have brought all the raw materials of Europe and Africa, plus industrial development capacity under one control. The Nazis would rule one quarter of the 2 Billion people in the World. 500 million people of Africa would be used as slave labour. German conquest of Russia would add the vast raw materials and manpower, another 200 million to the Nazi labour effort.

Japanese conquest of the Orient would add the raw materials and manpower of that area, 1,000 million under Japanese rule with slave labour.

North and South America would be left with the resources of three tenths of the World, Axis powers with seven tenths. One Industrial Region against their three. One eighth of the World's population against their seven-eighths. North and South America could mobolise 30 million fully equipped men. The Axis could mobolise 200 million.

Axis victory in Europe and Asia would have left America alone and surrounded. With bases in Greenland and Iceland the Nazis would have been able to operate unrestricted submarine warfare.

Sec.of War Henry L.Stimson stated: " if today, our Navy should make secure the seas for unrestricted delivery of munitions to Gt.Britain, it will render as great a service to our country and to the preservation of American Freedom as ever rendered in all its glorious history".

Congress repeals the entire Neutrality Act and arms their merchant ships to sail into combat zones.

With Russia occupied with fighting Nazi Germany the Japanese needed to remove the American chain of bases stretching from Hawai, Wake, Guam, Phillipines to remove the obstacle to Japanese expansion southward.

The Japanese leaves to attack Pearl Harbour and wipe out the American Pacific Fleet at the same time as the Japanese Special Ambassador visits Washington. On Nov 14th 1941, Ambassador arrives San Francisco, on Nov 17th, 1941 he is received by the US President and Sec.of State. On Nov 26th,1941 American proposals forwarded to Tokio. On 7th Dec 1941 Pearl Harbour was attacked, one hour before Japanese answer to American proposals was delivered by Japanese Ambassador to Sec.of State USA.

War declared on Japan.

Hitler declares war on America.

"...victory of the democracies can only be complete with the utter defeat of the war machine of Germany and Japan". G.C.Marshall (Chief of Staff)

Well, I know this has been rather long, but as you can see it was recognised by America's own Government that they had to confront Hitler. Hitler believed in Racial Purity, to him America was a Nation of Mongrels. With the lead he had in rocket technology if Britain and her Allies had been defeated their is little doubt that America was next in line.

If America became the arsenal of democracy Britain and her Allies were most certainly on the ramparts doing their share and more of the fighting.

The mobilisation for war also brought America out of the Depression whereas Britain was virtually bankrupted. This led to America's ascendancy after the war and Britain's slow decline.

So next time you talk of Team America winning the war all on its own, you will perhaps understand the anger and derision of the descendents of those Allies who lost their lives and families fighting the Axis to keep ALL of us FREE and SAFE from HARM.

I ask that you do not denigrate their deaths or their suffering by thoughtless, insenstive remarks. For my part I am grateful to each and every one of them. God bless them all.

[Long Duck Dong]

I was sitting in the local rsa once, on a anzac day, talking with some vets.... and we had some americans ( non vets ) there.. a lil drunk and mouthy, and one of them wandered over, and looked the vets up and down, then said " I do not know why you are so proud of yaselfs, if it wasn't for america, you would not be here "....
one of the vets, a british gentleman just put down his drink, turned to the american and said * if you americans had got off your asses when other countries were up to their eyeballs in blood and guts, 3-4 mill more people would be sitting down enjoying a drink and hugging their grand children.... "
then one of the nz vets said something that still gets me thinking now..." remember ww1 and the restrictions placed on germany ? well.. it nearly killed germany off... and gave hitler a reason to get started"

the american shrugged and said " yeah you lot are still too stupid to face facts, without america, you all would be fucked "

at that point the rsa president came over, and said " excuse me, but you are drinking in a place with war vets, and the reason why you are standing here drinking and mouthing off, is because of the vets sitting here today..... without them and the rest of the americans and other countries, you would not be standing here today and your country may well have been a country of another nationality.....

in ww2, you waited a few years to get blood on your hands while other countries were already burying 10'000's, and claim the victory..... now you rush into wars that you can not win, and bury 10'000's now....
but our support of your troops doesn't take 3-4 years to get there.... and nor is it really acknowledged still......

drink up, and leave......

that is something I will never forget..... but nor can I forget new orleans....and the people still waiting for the help to come

lest we forget....

[TwylaTwobits]

As an American let me say here and now that most Americans are appreciative of the service of all soldiers, whatever country, whatever flag they flew, they all fought for the freedom we enjoy to be able to continue to live and prosper.

Let us not be blind to all of our history, both good and bad, and learn.... lest we forget.

[tenni]

-US General Motors and Ford had factories in Germany when Hitler was in power

-Corporate USA increased investment 48.5% in Germany between 1929 and 1940, while declining in the rest of continental Europe.
-American capital investment in Germany was $5,000,000,000 in 1933. By 1939, it had increased another $3,000,000,000.
-among the leading American corporations owning or holding large interests in Nazi German corporations were Standard Oil, General Motors, Ford Motor Co., Anaconda Copper, General Electric, International Telephone and Telegraph, US Rubber, International Business Machines, International Harvester, E.I. duPont de Nemours.

-James Mooney, the General Motors executive in charge of European operations, was awarded the Order of Merit of the Golden Eagle by Adolph Hitler.

-Over 80% of German casualties took place on the Russian front.
-The United States stayed out of the war for three years as Russia bore the brunt of the fascist attack and only entered as Russian forces were driving the Germans rapidly back toward Berlin. Churchill and Roosevelt had to urge Stalin to slow down so that Russia would not enter Berlin before the other allies.

-Thurman Arnold reported on June 3, 1942 that the Department of Justice had “discovered last week” a list of 162 agreements between IG Farbenindustrie, the Nazi German chemical trust, and US corporations. This showed a US-Nazi cartel agreement all the time that such countries as Britain, France, Canada, Russia sons were dying while at war with Nazi Germany. The Truman Committee on the Standard Oil-Nazi patents-pool conspiracy, despite this evidence, found the the executives to be "personally patriotic men".

-Information of military value relating US and British production was regularly provided to the Nazis by these US corporations.
Through supplying Krupp with a complete list of the sources and amounts of royalties paid by its tungsten carbide licensees, General Electric’s Carboloy Company kept the Nazis informed on the number and location of plants producing tungsten carbide and the exact quantities of this vital war metal being produced in the USA.
-DuPont “gave a German company access to military information through Remington Arms royalty payments (on all tetracene produced in America) to the German company.”

Lest we forget...

or is it We never really knew?

[Alaskan Couple]

I think perhaps we should also not forget that it was ordinary citizens in Germany in the 1930's that allowed - nay, that brought the Nazis into power. America and Americans are not immune to nationalism that leads to fanaticism. In fact, it seems that I am seeing and hearing more and more of it all wrapped up and disguised in something called "patriotism". And let us also never forget that this country was founded and grew prosperous on genocide and slavery. Nor should we forget that the USA is the only country in history to use nuclear weapons on civilians...let us not be too proud. Pride and fanatic patriotism are dangerous things.

I often wonder if all of the sacrifice of past generations who fought and died for true freedom will not ultimately have been in vain. I know we live in a complex and diverse society - and societies all over the world are being tested by things such as over-population, globalization and corporate take over. But it seems that unless all humans and all nations tone down the rhetoric, shift from hate/tribalism to tolerance/acceptance, and evolve into a more gentle/loving species...well, it's really just a matter of time before we go too far and end civilization as we now know it.

Oh well, may God bless America...(but doesn't that imply that He needs to curse some of His other children that we don't like?)...Maybe we should pray; God have mercy and bless us all. I think that would be more in tune with His will and nature. And who knows, maybe if we all prayed for our enemies we might just forget why we are enemies???

[cliffordmontero]

The kind of arrogance shown by that American in that bar with those veterans is exactly why people hold negative views of people from the United States. To many people in the US with big mouths insert their feet in those mouths daily, and I am sure I have a time or 2 myself.

If you look at the numbers for losses in WWII, the US has among the lowest percentage of loss per as a population. Not surprising since we sat out nearly all of the war. If it hadn't been for Pearl Harbor and Germany declaring war against the US who knows how long we would have sat out. Unlike other countries, whose involvement was far longer, the US population really was kinda untouched by casualties of the war in comparison. I am not trying to downplay those US soldiers who did fall to the war, but less of us were affected than almost every other country.

Saying the US came in and won the war is kinda foolish in my eyes. It belittles the involvement of MILLIONS of other soldiers and civilians who died in that war. 24 million Russians, almost 20 million Chinese, countless more from all over the world perished. Not to mention saying the US won the war ignores the Russian success in pushing back Germany and actually being the first to Berlin, the Australian success in taking the oil fields of Borneo, and numerous other battles that were fought without US forces throughout the course of the war.

An event like a war cannot and should not be trivialized by stating one country won it . . . one country did not win it . . . one does not win war . . . one simply ends a war . . .

[Long Duck Dong]

The kind of arrogance shown by that American in that bar with those veterans is exactly why people hold negative views of people from the United States. To many people in the US with big mouths insert their feet in those mouths daily, and I am sure I have a time or 2 myself.

If you look at the numbers for losses in WWII, the US has among the lowest percentage of loss per as a population. Not surprising since we sat out nearly all of the war. If it hadn't been for Pearl Harbor and Germany declaring war against the US who knows how long we would have sat out. Unlike other countries, whose involvement was far longer, the US population really was kinda untouched by casualties of the war in comparison. I am not trying to downplay those US soldiers who did fall to the war, but less of us were affected than almost every other country.

Saying the US came in and won the war is kinda foolish in my eyes. It belittles the involvement of MILLIONS of other soldiers and civilians who died in that war. 24 million Russians, almost 20 million Chinese, countless more from all over the world perished. Not to mention saying the US won the war ignores the Russian success in pushing back Germany and actually being the first to Berlin, the Australian success in taking the oil fields of Borneo, and numerous other battles that were fought without US forces throughout the course of the war.

An event like a war cannot and should not be trivialized by stating one country won it . . . one country did not win it . . . one does not win war . . . one simply ends a war . . .

non coms act like that, but servicemen and women rarely do....they understand.... ( non coms are non combatants / civilians )

when I went into the nz forces, it was with the attitude that I would be a proud soldier, serving my country, wearing the uniform etc

dear god, I was in for one hell of a wake up call....

the uniform was merely clothes I wore.... my country was the place I lived... what mattered was the guys walking in the rain and the mud, cold and wet, nerves so highly strung that it would take 3-4 days to * decom * ( come down from a combat alert state ), losing all sense of dates and times, eating food that was akin to rehydrated cardboard... and you were not * hunting the enemy *... you were hoping to god that you saw them before they saw you, that you got in the first shot and the crack that you just heard, was a twig, not a landmine that you just stood on.....

that was merely on training exercises...... not hell on earth in a battle field....

its very hard for any non com to really understand what soldiers go thru.... or why many come home, but their minds and sanity never do...... and the reason is simple.... you can't go to hell and live there for a time and then return home to * normal society *... cos society is no longer normal to you... you are no longer * joe blogs, *...you are a ex service person, with a number, a uniform, a service record and maybe a medal or two..... and a mind torn apart and patched back together......

wars can be won or lost on the battle fields, but for the vets and many others, it never ends, we just exchange the weapon for a tool, the uniform for work clothes, the medals for a paycheck, and our enemy becomes the people that do not understand.......

I stand proudly with every serviceman and woman and civilsup ( civil support such as the engineers in iraq ) of every country and nation... regardless of if I believe in their cause..... simply cos I understand.... I walked the walk..... and part of me never came home.....

lest we forget that many pay a price that is never truly acknowledged and now I will spent another week dealing with the nightmares...

[cliffordmontero]

I suppose its an unfortunate fact that the average civilian cannot understand what it means to be in the service. I am just a civilian, but my grandfather and father served in the military, and I have a cousin who served as a mortician in the US Army. She did tours in the Middle East, and was stationed near Iraq, embalming casualties both military and civilian. I grew up in a base town (Lakehurst, NJ, home to Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst). Even those closest to veterans who have seen combat have trouble understanding what actually happens, and what effect it has on them. No matter what flag you serve under there is a certain bond cause by the common experience of combat.

[FalconAngel]

You clearly feel that out of date information matters here.

Like I said; YOU are not needed to remind us of these things.

the "War Department" hasn't been called that since they changed it to "Department of Defense" shortly after Korea.

Many of us know all about the statistics and all of that.

Many of us also know that Britain wanted the US in WWI so badly that the admiralty intelligence chief at the time, Winston Churchill, ordered that no message would be sent out to ships on the route of the Lusitania about the sub sighted along that route.

Lusitania, as you might recall, had a number of prominent and very wealthy Americans on board, the loss of which, brought us into the war within a year.

Forgot about that little thing on your nation's part, didn't you?

Did you also forget that it was British intelligence, again, that refused to give us the information that would have thwarted the attack on Pearl Harbor, which brought the US in force, into WWII, which Britain, once again, wanted us in, desperately.

Don't pick and choose facts, or you will get as good as you give.

[TwylaTwobits]

Now wait a second, I watch a lot of History Channel as well and like many watched about a conspiracy of FDR having information regarding an attack coming. Do I think there were people who had warning? Maybe there were things that were acknowledged with hindsight to be warnings to a lot of people, but was there specific information regarding date, time and manner of attack? Nothing I have come across has said that Japan told FDR "hey, dude we're gonna bomb you on Dec 7, 1941". But there have been a lot of information showing that allies tried to warn........Australia among them and it was denounced as a Republican manuever. This is part of why I say that we can be proud of our history and be patriotic but do not be blind. Pointing fingers doesn't bring back over 2000 lives and it damned sure doesn't help any grieving relative.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7736750907069936394&ei=SvVkS9zaA6eWqwL35ZDBCA&q=pearl+harbor+conspiracy&hl=en#

[Long Duck Dong]

ahh falcon.... are you saying that the british should have informed the us of a impending attack by the japanese, while britain and other countries were busy trying to avoid being over run and failing ???

lol.... you kicked england in the ass and told them to fuck off, and made america a proud country in its own right..... then you now say that its British fault that they did not wipe the us's nose and wipe .....roflmao

ahhh falcon, britain was busy fighting a war.... while the us was busy doing trade negotiations with japan..... you lot could have used your own * superior intelligence *.....

god I can not help but laugh now at the idea that the us saved the rest of the world in ww2.... when you are sitting there blaming britain for not protecting your ass.....lol....

thank you falcon.... I needed a good laugh..... and you provided it.... ROFLMAO...... wipes tear from eye.... looks at falcon again ... ROFLMAO

[darkeyes]

You clearly feel that out of date information matters here.

Like I said; YOU are not needed to remind us of these things.

the "War Department" hasn't been called that since they changed it to "Department of Defense" shortly after Korea.

Many of us know all about the statistics and all of that.

Many of us also know that Britain wanted the US in WWI so badly that the admiralty intelligence chief at the time, Winston Churchill, ordered that no message would be sent out to ships on the route of the Lusitania about the sub sighted along that route.

Lusitania, as you might recall, had a number of prominent and very wealthy Americans on board, the loss of which, brought us into the war within a year.

Forgot about that little thing on your nation's part, didn't you?

Did you also forget that it was British intelligence, again, that refused to give us the information that would have thwarted the attack on Pearl Harbor, which brought the US in force, into WWII, which Britain, once again, wanted us in, desperately.

Don't pick and choose facts, or you will get as good as you give.

I am prepared to accept the Lusitania claim Falcie but the claim about Pearl Harbour is less strong and cannot be substantiated.. you are a bit definite and fall into the trap of believing the worst. I do not deny that there is some evidence that your claim is correct but so far final proof escapes us.. there is equally as much evidence that Roosevelt knew exactly what was going to happen having been forewarned and sat on his hands.. British Intelliegnce warned of an impending attack months before but it unknown for sure that they were aware of the exact date of 7 December.. there is in fact a case to be made that the British did inform the US of that date.. but since most of your codebreakers were on holiday just prior what do I know?

I do accept that Churchill and the British were desperate to get the US into the war.. I do not accept as proven the case that you make that British Intelligence held back on information warning the US of 7 December..

So dont claim what may be as fact..

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I'm not awake enough yet to have read all of these, but I am Hoping that this isnt a dig at our Military Men and Women? If thats not what this is all about, I apologise in advance, but just let me say, I'm hoping that it isnt. No matter what ANYbody thinks of the military, the govenment, or the so called Powers that be, our Service men and women, and Veterans deserve the Utmost respect and admiration for what they have Done, and what they continue to DO for us, so that we can live the lives we do, and so we can be free to enjoy the freedoms that we, and our children and grandchildren do now!
Sorry for the run on's guys, but 2 hours sleep in 32 does not a coherant Cat make...lol
And No Body talks bad about my Vets.
Cat

[darkeyes]

I'm not awake enough yet to have read all of these, but I am Hoping that this isnt a dig at our Military Men and Women? If thats not what this is all about, I apologise in advance, but just let me say, I'm hoping that it isnt. No matter what ANYbody thinks of the military, the govenment, or the so called Powers that be, our Service men and women, and Veterans deserve the Utmost respect and admiration for what they have Done, and what they continue to DO for us, so that we can live the lives we do, and so we can be free to enjoy the freedoms that we, and our children and grandchildren do now!
Sorry for the run on's guys, but 2 hours sleep in 32 does not a coherant Cat make...lol
And No Body talks bad about my Vets.
Cat

Go hav a cold shower an wake up, Cat me luffly..no 1 is havin a bash atya servicemen an women... it mite b a wee go at Falcie an those like 'im who seem 2 hav a bee in ther bonnet bout counries an peeps that r not American or America... am certainly not havin a go at 'em.. least not on this occasion..

..but will jus say..an hopeya don get 2 touchy on it.. that like the military a ne nation..urs r no angels.. bit hard 2 b wenya primary purpose is killin peeps an keep in power a rulin elite... hav nev accepted the claim oft made they r ther 2 "keep the peace". Sumtimes its the peeps a other countries they r ther 2 kill..sumtimes ther own.. jus depends on who the rulin elite decide r the enemy.. merely a reality Cat darlin'.. am not a pacifist for nuthin...:)

[tenni]

From my perspective the point of this thread is not about individuals who were in any government's military service unless these individuals or their offspring go about proclaiming that their country "won" the war (meaning WW2 or even WW1) and the Brits etc. are lucky that they did because otherwise the Brits etc. would be speaking German or slaves of Germany etc. All Allied countries helped and were involved including Russia and the US so that all the allied countries didn't end up under Nazi and Axis countries control etc.

More specifically, I've only heard one country's citizens speak about this misconception that "they" won the war without referencing the other Allies. From my perspective it is a gross insult to the people who were fighting the Nazis while that bragard's country's government was being complicit by permitting its corporate barons to make money from having secret agreements with the Nazis. This was done all the while none of the bragard's citizens were fighting. To me, they are stating that their corporate big businesses grew rich while your people were fighting and dying. Then we decided to join you to save you because we are so much better than you. We can work both sides of that war, grow richer and then step in to save you because we (government) knew that we were next to be invaded all along. Our citizens didn't want to fight the Nazis until we were invaded ourselves so we (government) didn't fight the Nazi's and Axis countries until that happened. We (government) would have been quite happy to let our corporate barons grow richer by working and developing Nazi businesses if we had not also been invaded.

[bigbadmax]

For the record.....I am a Gulf vet...served 10yrs in the Royal Navy.

I could tell you countless stories of bigotry in USA and so can my wife (non millitary)whose from New Orleans.

To sum up in a shortish manner..no stats no moaning etc

Americas attitude amongst the Majority of citizens is that they are proud of their country and proud of their millitary.whether they should be away from home is its Governments choice...whether they serve is their own choice and where they serve at home or abroad,they do the job to the best of their ability.

In the UK RN/RAF/Army Personnel go where they are told and do the job to the best of their ability...etc and the same can be said about all other countries on the globe.

We should just forget the few and support the views of the many.

[FalconAngel]

ahh falcon.... are you saying that the british should have informed the us of a impending attack by the japanese, while britain and other countries were busy trying to avoid being over run and failing ???

Was communicating with the US such a strain on the British armed forces that they could not send a telegram to the U.S. War Dept.?

Based on what you are implying, it was. That is both disregarding the facts and a horribly ignorant statement.

I want you to commit the following phrase to memory: "One hand washes the other". Think on it's meaning.

When the Japanese attacked, we had been picking away at the Pacific fleet to do convoy duty in the Atlantic or to be loaned to the Royal Navy because the island nation needed the ships and subs.

If we had been warned properly (yes, the telegram that, according to you, Britain could ill afford one minor intell clerk to send), then we would have been grateful for that and more than 3000 military and civilian lives would have been saved.

Preventing or intercepting the attack fleet would have still gotten us into the war (Americans really hate being stabbed in the back), but we would have come into the war stronger, which, according to analysts, could have shortened the war in Europe even more than Patton and Montgomery's tactical strategies as well as making the Pacific theater conflicts easier to win.

But to know that, you would have to properly understand the implications of tactics and strategies of waging war and serving as allies to foreign nations as well as why treaties are signed. Too bad that your arguments clearly indicate that you do not know any of that.



lol.... you kicked england in the ass and told them to fuck off, and made america a proud country in its own right.....

Is that what you are so upset about? Seem rather arrogant and ignorant on your part. It was more than 200 years ago and neither country is yours, so get over it already.

Or it is perhaps that bashing the US makes your personal inferiority feel better to you. It would create fewer problems if you would just get back on your meds and do your homework more thoroughly.


then you now say that its British fault that they did not wipe the us's nose and wipe .....roflmao

Wipe our noses?? Now I know that you are off your desperately needed meds.
All that I said was that they could have better complied with the treaties to which both countries signed, which would have prevented the attack from being successful.

Hand washing the other.....remember?

And yes, we did kick the British out of the colonies, thus forming a new nation. As a matter of fact, we did it twice. The war of Independence and the War of 1812. You seemed to have forgotten that little fracas. Our reasoning was simple, but since you don't get it, here is a document that will explain it all to you;

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm


ahhh falcon, britain was busy fighting a war.... while the us was busy doing trade negotiations with japan..... you lot could have used your own * superior intelligence *.....

Too busy, fighting the war, to spare that previously mentioned intell clerk to send the War Department (now known as the DOD) a message saying that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor?

Damn.....they must have been in the middle of fighting the Germans off the island.....oh, wait a minute, the Germans never managed to invade Britain, so they could have afforded to spare a clerk to send a message.

So that means that you are wrong......again. And I would be remiss in failing to point out the ignorance and severely flawed logic that you are using.

Like so many of your arguments, this one does not hold water, either.


god I can not help but laugh now at the idea that the us saved the rest of the world in ww2.... when you are sitting there blaming britain for not protecting your ass.....lol....

Who said that we saved "the rest of the world"?

We did give the English, Free French, Free Poles, Russians and others both much of the equipment and training to use the equipment to fight back. And why not? we had the industry to do it faster and more efficiently. Even Britain, who made some fine aircraft, was still doing much of their manufacturing the old fashioned way while we were doing almost everything with assembly lines.
As a matter of fact, the Russians were particularly fond of our P-39 Airacobras that they got under lend lease as an anti-armor aircraft (used like the modern Warthog).
They also liked the M-4A3 Sherman tank as well. Sure, they could build tanks, but we could provide numbers that they could not match. As a matter of fact, they liked American aircraft and hardware so much that they decided to copy as many of our designs as they could get their hands on. Ever seen a Backfire Bomber next to a B-1?


thank you falcon.... I needed a good laugh..... and you provided it.... ROFLMAO...... wipes tear from eye.... looks at falcon again ... ROFLMAO

Those tears are tears of shame and sadness for being so wrong, so often, and with greater frequency than any other person here.

I enjoy this because proving you wrong just keeps getting easier and easier every time you post.

[FalconAngel]

For the record.....I am a Gulf vet...served 10yrs in the Royal Navy.

I could tell you countless stories of bigotry in USA and so can my wife (non millitary)whose from New Orleans.

Having spent three years stationed at RAF Bentwaters, I can tell you that America has no lock on it. I have dealt with more than a few British nationals that have any number of issues with Americans, even those of us that were trying to respect our hosts and learn about your country with the "when in Rome" philosophy.


To sum up in a shortish manner..no stats no moaning etc

Americas attitude amongst the Majority of citizens is that they are proud of their country and proud of their millitary.whether they should be away from home is its Governments choice...whether they serve is their own choice and where they serve at home or abroad,they do the job to the best of their ability.

I have found that to be true of most foreign military personnel from all over the world, but then why serve a country that one is not proud of, right? Though some are more biased than others. I was actually embarrassed by many of my fellow service members overseas, complaining that there was nothing to do. I found plenty to do, plenty to see and plenty to learn. If I had had the information, I could have helped my Grandmother with tracing our family lines in the UK, before she died.


In the UK RN/RAF/Army Personnel go where they are told and do the job to the best of their ability...etc and the same can be said about all other countries on the globe.

We should just forget the few and support the views of the many.

On this, I share your sentiments as well.

[Long Duck Dong]

Was communicating with the US such a strain on the British armed forces that they could not send a telegram to the U.S. War Dept.?

Based on what you are implying, it was. That is both disregarding the facts and a horribly ignorant statement.

I want you to commit the following phrase to memory: "One hand washes the other". Think on it's meaning.

When the Japanese attacked, we had been picking away at the Pacific fleet to do convoy duty in the Atlantic or to be loaned to the Royal Navy because the island nation needed the ships and subs.

If we had been warned properly (yes, the telegram that, according to you, Britain could ill afford one minor intell clerk to send), then we would have been grateful for that and more than 3000 military and civilian lives would have been saved.

Preventing or intercepting the attack fleet would have still gotten us into the war (Americans really hate being stabbed in the back), but we would have come into the war stronger, which, according to analysts, could have shortened the war in Europe even more than Patton and Montgomery's tactical strategies as well as making the Pacific theater conflicts easier to win.

But to know that, you would have to properly understand the implications of tactics and strategies of waging war and serving as allies to foreign nations as well as why treaties are signed. Too bad that your arguments clearly indicate that you do not know any of that.




Is that what you are so upset about? Seem rather arrogant and ignorant on your part. It was more than 200 years ago and neither country is yours, so get over it already.

Or it is perhaps that bashing the US makes your personal inferiority feel better to you. It would create fewer problems if you would just get back on your meds and do your homework more thoroughly.



Wipe our noses?? Now I know that you are off your desperately needed meds.
All that I said was that they could have better complied with the treaties to which both countries signed, which would have prevented the attack from being successful.

Hand washing the other.....remember?

And yes, we did kick the British out of the colonies, thus forming a new nation. As a matter of fact, we did it twice. The war of Independence and the War of 1812. You seemed to have forgotten that little fracas. Our reasoning was simple, but since you don't get it, here is a document that will explain it all to you;

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm



Too busy, fighting the war, to spare that previously mentioned intell clerk to send the War Department (now known as the DOD) a message saying that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor?

Damn.....they must have been in the middle of fighting the Germans off the island.....oh, wait a minute, the Germans never managed to invade Britain, so they could have afforded to spare a clerk to send a message.

So that means that you are wrong......again. And I would be remiss in failing to point out the ignorance and severely flawed logic that you are using.

Like so many of your arguments, this one does not hold water, either.



Who said that we saved "the rest of the world"?

We did give the English, Free French, Free Poles, Russians and others both much of the equipment and training to use the equipment to fight back. And why not? we had the industry to do it faster and more efficiently. Even Britain, who made some fine aircraft, was still doing much of their manufacturing the old fashioned way while we were doing almost everything with assembly lines.
As a matter of fact, the Russians were particularly fond of our P-39 Airacobras that they got under lend lease as an anti-armor aircraft (used like the modern Warthog).
They also liked the M-4A3 Sherman tank as well. Sure, they could build tanks, but we could provide numbers that they could not match. As a matter of fact, they liked American aircraft and hardware so much that they decided to copy as many of our designs as they could get their hands on. Ever seen a Backfire Bomber next to a B-1?



Those tears are tears of shame and sadness for being so wrong, so often, and with greater frequency than any other person here.

I enjoy this because proving you wrong just keeps getting easier and easier every time you post.

I am curious...... are you so determined to be right on everything that you can not recognize humor ????? I was being sarcastic and humourous, but you are so hell bent on being right and proving people wrong, that you even torn apart a clearly humourous post that never stated facts or sources of facts in a attempt to prove me wrong.....

seriously, falcon.... you need to learn a lot about humour, laughter and being humorous .....

I know about ww2, I know a lot about ww2, I drink with the veterans from ww2... the ones that were there.... and the ones that shake their heads at the official statements, cos as they say.... its official BS....

you can post site after site after site, to your hearts content.... in order to continue the * falcon is right * tradition that you are fond of.... but seriously.... theres what ??? 2 maybe 3 people... that are paying any attention to you.... and what ??? 0 people paying any attention to your constant insistence that I am wrong.......

so as I have said in another thread,.... be right if you want.... have your moment of glory... etc.... me, I am happy to enjoy time with the vets that served in ww2 and places like korea and malaysia and nam.... including my stepfather and my father.... thats the true source of info..... not net sites...

unless of course everything on the net is true, and you better hope it is, otherwise, you are the one that is posting link after link.... and claiming it makes you right....

[darkeyes]

And yes, we did kick the British out of the colonies, thus forming a new nation. As a matter of fact, we did it twice. The war of Independence and the War of 1812. You seemed to have forgotten that little fracas. Our reasoning was simple, but since you don't get it, here is a document that will explain it all to you;

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm



Too busy, fighting the war, to spare that previously mentioned intell clerk to send the War Department (now known as the DOD) a message saying that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor?

.

It must be the difference in the reading of history between our two countries Falcie.. cos far as I know its not quite true that you kicked us out of the colonies twice... wasn't the war of 1812 considered an honourable draw? It may be a niggly point but quite fair I think. The Battle of New Orleans was fought if I remember correctly after a peace treaty had been signed between both countries.. Britain had no intention of retaking the USA back into the Empire although in the early days at least, the US did have a hankering after Canada. Britain had quite enough on her plate with the little Corsican and considered the American war something of a distraction.

..and do stop harping on about Intel Clerks and Pearl Harbour.. this is not proven and in fact some recent evidence has considerably weakened the case you make.. I still do not doubt it as a possibility, but think it unlikely.. so stop claiming as fact what may have been.. when nations do that much unhappiness and destruction often occurs and when people do it they merely lessen themselves...

[TwylaTwobits]

Yes, Fran, the Battle of New Orleans was fought after the Treaty of Ghent was signed but the news wasn't out to the fronts til February. I do find it amazing that the battle was turned into a song that was both a hit in the US and in Britain. Of course they changed one word.....Rebels for British in the British version but it is a glorious tribute to a well fought battle. It's not like some of the events after peace treaties signed in other wars where hundreds of men lost their lives so that the general could have a bath that night. War is terrible at any time but the lives lost for nothing just turn my stomach.

[darkeyes]

Yes, Fran, the Battle of New Orleans was fought after the Treaty of Ghent was signed but the news wasn't out to the fronts til February. I do find it amazing that the battle was turned into a song that was both a hit in the US and in Britain. Of course they changed one word.....Rebels for British in the British version but it is a glorious tribute to a well fought battle. It's not like some of the events after peace treaties signed in other wars where hundreds of men lost their lives so that the general could have a bath that night. War is terrible at any time but the lives lost for nothing just turn my stomach.I agree wholeheartedly Twyla.. you know how I loathe war and why I am a pacifist in any case, but to fight a battle after peace has been made is a true tragedy of tragedies.. it has happened before, and even in this day of instant communication, I have no doubt it will happen again..:(

[Long Duck Dong]

..and do stop harping on about Intel Clerks and Pearl Harbour.. this is not proven and in fact some recent evidence has considerably weakened the case you make.. I still do not doubt it as a possibility, but think it unlikely.. so stop claiming as fact what may have been.. when nations do that much unhappiness and destruction often occurs and when people do it they merely lessen themselves...

I remember reading a book co authored by the japanese and the americans about world war 2.... I can not remember the exact name.... but it was about the true story behind pearl harbour..... and a name that stuck in my mind was j.c. grew... so I googled it.....


*January 27, 1941 Joseph C. Grew, the U.S. Ambassador to Japan, wired Washington that he had learned information that Japan, in the event of trouble with the U.S., was planning a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

No one in Washington believed the information, if someone had believed this information, the Pearl Harbor attack possibly could have been avoided. While many thought that war was possible, no one believed that the Japanese could surprise us.

Most senior American military experts believed that the Japanese would attack Manila in the Philippine Islands. Manila's location threatened the sea lanes of communications as the Japanese military forces moved south. Another thought to location of attack was toward the north into Russia because of the war in Europe between Germany and the Soviet Union *

mmm nearly a year before pearl harbour was attacked, the us were told about it and ignored it ???? ....... then its blamed on a british intel clerk ???

the more I read about pearl harbour and the revelations of documents released under the official informations act.. the more it appears that there was a complete failure of communications.... including the transmissions from the us planes shot down by the first wave of japanese planes, the radar station in oahu and unoffically, the idea that nobody attacks on a sunday, its just not something that happens.....

either way, it should have not happened.... at all......

[tenni]

"We should just forget the few and support the views of the many."




What is the view of the many (US people)?

Is the view of the majority of US people that "the US" won WW2?
or
Do most US people speak of the US as a member of a team of countries that won WW2?


Going back to the War of 1812 seems way out of line if you believe that the US was one of a team of countries. It reads as if the poster is defensively dismissive and opposing the concerns expressed by Darkside on this topic.

[TwylaTwobits]

Let me make one thing clear, regardless of the nationality of any poster on this board. Their views reflect their views not the complete view of their country of origin. Asking what the majority view of any nation is on a board is an exercise in futility. The majority of Americans are not on THIS BOARD, therefore unless you meant it rhetorically it can't be answered. My personal belief is that there is no denying the impact on America's entry into WW2, but that it was a global effort (hence why it's called WORLD WAR) and that ended the reign of terror of Axis countries.

[tenni]

btw
"You" (the US) did not kick Britain out of the colonies of North America. "You" kicked Britain out of thirteen colonies. Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and New Brunswick remained British colonies. "You" tried to conquer Upper Canada and "you" were kicked out of Upper Canada. You (US) lost that war in North America.

Such ignorant statements that "we kicked Britain out of the colonies" is very similar in its arrogance as "we won WW2".

[tenni]

I have heard and read statements similar about "we won WW2 and you are lucky that we did otherwise you would be German" on several other sites. It seems to be an oft repeated perspective from US people. It is not just one person who writes/says such things.

[Long Duck Dong]

I have heard and read statements similar about "we won WW2 and you are lucky that we did otherwise you would be German" on several other sites. It seems to be an oft repeated perspective from US people. It is not just one person who writes/says such things.

most of the time I see people saying about the us winning the war.... its people that have A) never serviced in the forces B) only read / heard / been taught their countries version of events

even the vets at the local rsa, laughed at the official version of nz's involvement in ww1 ww2 and nam.... then they wrote their stories about their time..... the nz nam story is in a book called the grey ghosts
the grey ghosts is the name given to the nz nam soldiers cos the vc admitted that they were shit scared of them but respected them as real soldiers....

the respect came from the fact that the nz'ers would bury the dead if possible, and take all identifying info and the location of the bodies, so that they could be handed to the intelli guys, many dead vc were never found, but it was then known, that they had died and where......

the shit scared part came from the aspect of the nz'ers being so quiet in the jungle that often the vc never heard them coming, or realised that they have walked within a few feet of them and never saw the nz'ers

that is two aspects that made me proud of serving in the nz forces..... the respect for the enemy, and the fact that the nz forces were respected by a enemy in a foreign country, where the enemy had the home turf advantage and were still outclassed, not by guns and weapons but by elite class training and execution in the feild.....

yes the us and australian soldiers were good in their own right, I would never argue that.... but two stories come to mind....
the one about the us soldiers that refused to go out on patrol until they have their rations of icecream and the australian pilots that refused to land their helicopters down thru the trees like the us pilots did
both stories are in the book the grey ghosts.... and both are stories I have heard for many nam vets.....

its easy to say that somebody won a war..... but its how they did it that is really the true story..... with guns and bombs and missles etc etc etc.... or with elite soldiering, a dedication to every man and woman out there.... and respect to the fallen, on all sides....

lest we forget

[Lady_Passion]

ahh falcon.... are you saying that the british should have informed the us of a impending attack by the japanese, while britain and other countries were busy trying to avoid being over run and failing ???

lol.... you kicked england in the ass and told them to fuck off, and made america a proud country in its own right..... then you now say that its British fault that they did not wipe the us's nose and wipe .....roflmao

ahhh falcon, britain was busy fighting a war.... while the us was busy doing trade negotiations with japan..... you lot could have used your own * superior intelligence *.....

god I can not help but laugh now at the idea that the us saved the rest of the world in ww2.... when you are sitting there blaming britain for not protecting your ass.....lol....

thank you falcon.... I needed a good laugh..... and you provided it.... ROFLMAO...... wipes tear from eye.... looks at falcon again ... ROFLMAO

Thank you again! Difficult to find realistic people with humor about such sad circumstances :.)

You've inspired me to post a couple of related articles and see what response they get.

[Long Duck Dong]

sighs..... yeah biCD4u.... figured that you would also be in on the band wagon....

I know that I am of such low level education that I didn't put any facts in there in the first place, and that falcon had to add in his facts in order to make my non factual post, wrong..... but.... seriously..... watching him do that, then you applaud it, makes me hope to hell, that if we ever have aliens come from a distant world, looking for intelligent life, that they never run into either of you both.....

[darkeyes]

I couldn't agree more.

Just on what basis can't you agree more? Nothing to add? Any original thoughts? Falcie may talk bollox at times, but at least they are rational (sort of) and he believes what he says and he thinks them out. Just what do you believe BiCD? And why? In the house of Commons there is an army of MP's who murmur "Hear Hear" when some party hack has said his piece on the floor of the house.. some of those MPs are quite bright and do have something to say.. and once they start you cant shut the buggers up. The rest, I would even say the majority are true party hacks.. cannon fodder for the party whips at voting time without an original thought in their heads and who can't string two words together to make sense...

Which are you BiCD? Hack or bright spark?

[Darkside2009]

Was communicating with the US such a strain on the British armed forces that they could not send a telegram to the U.S. War Dept.?

Based on what you are implying, it was. That is both disregarding the facts and a horribly ignorant statement.

I want you to commit the following phrase to memory: "One hand washes the other". Think on it's meaning.

When the Japanese attacked, we had been picking away at the Pacific fleet to do convoy duty in the Atlantic or to be loaned to the Royal Navy because the island nation needed the ships and subs.

If we had been warned properly (yes, the telegram that, according to you, Britain could ill afford one minor intell clerk to send), then we would have been grateful for that and more than 3000 military and civilian lives would have been saved.

Preventing or intercepting the attack fleet would have still gotten us into the war (Americans really hate being stabbed in the back), but we would have come into the war stronger, which, according to analysts, could have shortened the war in Europe even more than Patton and Montgomery's tactical strategies as well as making the Pacific theater conflicts easier to win.

But to know that, you would have to properly understand the implications of tactics and strategies of waging war and serving as allies to foreign nations as well as why treaties are signed. Too bad that your arguments clearly indicate that you do not know any of that.




Is that what you are so upset about? Seem rather arrogant and ignorant on your part. It was more than 200 years ago and neither country is yours, so get over it already.

Or it is perhaps that bashing the US makes your personal inferiority feel better to you. It would create fewer problems if you would just get back on your meds and do your homework more thoroughly.



Wipe our noses?? Now I know that you are off your desperately needed meds.
All that I said was that they could have better complied with the treaties to which both countries signed, which would have prevented the attack from being successful.

Hand washing the other.....remember?

And yes, we did kick the British out of the colonies, thus forming a new nation. As a matter of fact, we did it twice. The war of Independence and the War of 1812. You seemed to have forgotten that little fracas. Our reasoning was simple, but since you don't get it, here is a document that will explain it all to you;

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm



Too busy, fighting the war, to spare that previously mentioned intell clerk to send the War Department (now known as the DOD) a message saying that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor?

Damn.....they must have been in the middle of fighting the Germans off the island.....oh, wait a minute, the Germans never managed to invade Britain, so they could have afforded to spare a clerk to send a message.

So that means that you are wrong......again. And I would be remiss in failing to point out the ignorance and severely flawed logic that you are using.

Like so many of your arguments, this one does not hold water, either.



Who said that we saved "the rest of the world"?

We did give the English, Free French, Free Poles, Russians and others both much of the equipment and training to use the equipment to fight back. And why not? we had the industry to do it faster and more efficiently. Even Britain, who made some fine aircraft, was still doing much of their manufacturing the old fashioned way while we were doing almost everything with assembly lines.
As a matter of fact, the Russians were particularly fond of our P-39 Airacobras that they got under lend lease as an anti-armor aircraft (used like the modern Warthog).
They also liked the M-4A3 Sherman tank as well. Sure, they could build tanks, but we could provide numbers that they could not match. As a matter of fact, they liked American aircraft and hardware so much that they decided to copy as many of our designs as they could get their hands on. Ever seen a Backfire Bomber next to a B-1?



Those tears are tears of shame and sadness for being so wrong, so often, and with greater frequency than any other person here.

I enjoy this because proving you wrong just keeps getting easier and easier every time you post.

Hmmm! Where should I start? Firstly, I think you should hang your head in shame for mocking the fact that a military vet is ill and is taking medication for his illness.

Secondly, you raised a number of issues that do not properly belong in this thread, but since you have I will address them.

On the matter of 1812, it was American forces that invaded Canada in an attempt to gain control of the Great Lakes. These American forces were routed during the Battle of Queenston Heights. I seem to recall your White House being burned during this period, so much for kicking British asses. By the Treaty of Ghent in 1814, Americans recognised the legitimacy of British North America. In 1818, agreement was reached, establishing the southern border along the 49th Parallel.

On the other matter regarding the Lusitania, you made defamatory allegations against Winston Churchill, easy to do when the man is not alive to defend himself, so let us all see your proof, such as it is, then we can all decide who to believe.

The following is my case. In 1903 the Cunard Line decided to wrest the 'Blue Riband' away from the Germans and remove the threat of an American stranglehold,(the Morgan combine of IMM)on the Atlantic ferry.

Working in close co-operation with the British Admiralty on design and specifications, the blueprints called for two giant liners that could maintain an average speed of 24 knots.

In addition, an agreement dated 31st July 1903, between the Admiralty, the Board of Trade, the Postmaster General and the Cunard Steamship Company Ltd, stipulated that fittings should be so arranged as to provide for armament in the event of their being taken over by the Admiralty and used as armed cruisers. In such a case,the Admiralty should give one months notice.

The first of Cunard's luxury liners was the Lusitania. When she commenced her maiden voyage on 7th Sept 1907 from Liverpool, she was the largest and one of the most elegant ships in the World. On her second westbound voyage, 5th October 1907, the Lusitania also proved to be the fastest ship in the World. She steamed from Queenstown to Ambrose Light at an average speed of 23.99 knots. On her return she broke all existing records by maintaining an average speed of 23.61 knots, thus capturing the 'Blue Riband' for Britain.

In November 1907, the Lusitania was eclipsed in size by her sister the Mauretania. The twins battled it out for the 'Blue Riband' with the Lusitania achieving an average speed of 25.85 knots during a crossing in 1909, but the Mauretania proved to be the faster of the two, and from 1909 she flew the 'Blue Riband' for the next 22 years.

In anticipation of hostilities in Europe, the Lusitania was given a secret refit in May 1913. The No.1 boiler was converted. To a magazine, a second magazine was converted from part of the mail room and the shelter deck was adapted to take four six inch guns on either side.

When war was declared in August 1914, the Lusitania was immediately sent to dry dock.

On 17th Sept 1914, the Lusitania entered the Admiralty fleet as an armed auxiliary cruiser, and was entered as such on Cunard's ledger. The liner continued the Liverpool-Queenstown-New York run on a monthly basis.

Despite an announcement by the Germans that all the seas around the British Isles would be considered a war zone and that any vessel wearing the British flag was liable to be sunk, the Lusitania prepared for another 'slow' (21 knots) crossing.

During the last few days in April 1915, the Lusitania loaded the following items: 1,248 cases of three-inch shrapnel shells, (filled) 4,927 boxes of cartridges, 1,639 ingot bars of copper, 74 barrels of fuel oil, several hundred packages of sundries, 329 cases of lard, 184 cases of accoutrements, (for Booth and Company- haversacks, pouches etc),323 bales of raw furs, 3,863 boxes of cheese, 600 cases of canned goods, 696 tubes of butter and 500 cases of sweets.

Practically all the 'lethal' cargo was loaded directly adjacent to the bulkhead leading to No.1 boiler room. On 1st May 1915, the Lusitania was given clearance to sail based on a one page manifest.

A little after noon on 1st May, with veteran Cunard Captain William Thomas Turner in command, the Lusitania commenced the second leg of her 101st voyage to Liverpool. On board were 290 First Class, 600 Second Class, 367 Third Class passengers and a crew of 702; along with 1,400 tons of general cargo.

The voyage was uneventful until the Lusitania approached the Irish coast. Starting on the 6th May, the Admiralty sent out a series of wireless messages to the Lusitania about German submarine activity of the Irish coast, which Captain Turner acknowledged.

As a precautionary measure, he followed the guidelines for navigating an 'unarmed' liner through hostile waters. Captain Turner ordered all the lifeboats hanging on davits to be swung out and lowered to promenade deck, double lookouts were posted at ther bridge, bow and stern, all passenger portholes were blacked out, and he ordered closed all watertight doors and bulkheads not essential to the working of the ship.

The Admiralty assigned the Cruiser Juno to escort the Lusitania to Liverpool once she got to Ireland. However the Admiralty considered the Juno unsuitable for exposure to submarine attack without escort, and again with the known knowledge of German U-boats activity in the area, ordered the Juno to return to Queenstown.

Kapitan-Leutnant Walter Schweiger of U20 had been ordered to locate and sink either the Mauretania or Lusitania. On Friday 7th May at 1:20 pm Kapitan Schweiger sighted his prey. The Lusitania by now had reduced speed to 18 knots and was not zigzagging, but sailing in a straight line.

At 2:10 pm, Kapitan Schweiger fired one torpedo. It struck the Lusitania's starboard side right below the bridge near the bulkhead leading to No.1 boiler room. The immediate result was the flooding of the starboard coal bunkers and a 15 degree list. Within seconds a second explosion followed. This was the cargo, not a second torpedo.

Though there was no panic on board, the increasing list rendered the launching of the port side life boats ineffective. As a result, the passengers crowded over to the starboard side where the number of lifeboats was not enough to accomodate everyone.

After 18 minutes the Lusitania went down of Old Head of Kinsale. Survivors were few. Out of 1,159 passengers and 702 crew members, 374 and 289 survived respectively. Of those lost 128 were Americans.

Inquiries into the disaster were held on both sides of the Atlantic. Survivors claimed negligence and carelessness on the part of Cunard in connection with the navigation of the Lusitania and in respect of the conduct of her officers and crew.

In the opinion of the court handed down by Judge Julius M.Mayer in the US District Court for the Southern District of New York dated 23rd August 1918, Cunard line was exonerated and ' The cause of the Lusitania sinking was the illegal act of the Imperial German Government, through its instrument, the submarine commander...

At the time of the sinking, President Woodrow Wilson declared he would hold Germany accountable for such deaths in future.

The US did not declare war on Germany until two years later on 2nd April 1917, and this only follwed the Germans launching unrestricted submarine warfare from January 1917.

As you can see the reason you had so many rich Americans aboard, who wanted or needed to do business in Britain, was because of her prestigious place as one of the two fastest and most luxurious ships afloat.

Her sinking did not bring America into the War as Falcon erroneously claims, it merely affected any sympathy Germany might have had in America.

On another matter the Russians produced hundreds of T34 tanks to repulse and defeat the Germans. They had wide tracks were roughly and simply made, simple to operate, simple to repair if they broke down and they had an 88mm gun together with a machine gun.

In contrast the Sherman was affectionately known by the Germans as a Tommie Cooker and by the British and her allies as Ronsons, for their habit of bursting into flames when hit.

One last point Britain had informed the US of the intended Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour but it was not acted upon.

Even Stalin's spies in Tokyo were able to tell him that the Japanese were intent on attacking America and not Russia in 1941 which enabled Stalin to transfer 40 divisions of Winter hardened troops from Siberia to smash and turn back the German onslaught from the Eastern front, when the Russian Winter had brought the Germans to a stand-still.

If I've missed any of your remarks I'll have to respond to them tomorrow. I'm off to bed.

Lest we Forget.

[darkeyes]

Nev mind Falcie.. the US did sorta win the War of the Pig.. mind u..they needed a lil German help 2 do it.. but wen wars happen an the only casualty is a piggie.. shows wot can b dun wen a lil common sense ultimately prevails..

Soz Canada.. the Brits letya down gain... but at least ya got sum luffly bacon sarneys an a gud pork roast outa it..:tong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

[Hephaestion]

The information I have encountered says that the USA knew exactly what the Japanese were up to having already broken their war time code. Pearl Harbour was effectively sacrificed as an excuse to enter WWII and gain from it (and gain the USA did). The tripartite agreement between Japan Germany and Italy meant that war with Japan automatically meant war with Germany. In the process the Japanese were goaded with embargoes and pursuaded not to attack the Russians but to continue for their original goal, an attempted knockout blow against the USA.

If the sacrifice part is indeed correct then many years later the concept of a known and intended domestic sacrifice as an excuse to go to war gains an ugly credibility.

.

[Darkside2009]

The information I have encountered says that the USA knew exactly what the Japanese were up to having already broken their war time code. Pearl Harbour was effectively sacrificed as an excuse to enter WWII and gain from it (and gain the USA did). The tripartite agreement between Japan Germany and Italy meant that war with Japan automatically meant war with Germany. In the process the Japanese were goaded with embargoes and pursuaded not to attack the Russians but to continue for their original goal, an attempted knockout blow against the USA.

If the sacrifice part is indeed correct then many years later the concept of a known and intended domestic sacrifice as an excuse to go to war gains an ugly credibility.

.

In all fairness to the American President, that is not a view I would subscribe to. I think they had just become complacent and got caught out. The Japanese saw an opportunity and took it but missed destroying the American carriers which were at sea at the time. The British had destroyed the Italian fleet in a similar fashion so the precedent was there to be learned. I think they were hoping for a diplomatic settlement with the Japanese and didn't expect any attack whilst talks were ongoing.

[Hephaestion]

Below is an example of what I have encountered. This was largely pre-dated by the late AJP Taylor in his open lectures.

H.



It was in August, 1940, that the United States broke the Japanese "purple" war-time code. This gave the American government the ability to read and understand all of their recoverable war-time messages. Machines were manufactured to de-code Japan's messages; none was sent to Pearl Harbor.

Richardson later appraised his situation at Pearl Harbor and felt that his position was extremely precarious. He visited Roosevelt twice during 1940 to recommend that the fleet be withdrawn to the west coast of America, because:

His ships were inadequately manned for war;

The Hawaiian area was too exposed for Fleet training; and

The Fleet defenses against both air and submarine attacks were far below the required standards of strength.

That meant that the American government had done nothing to shore up the defenses of Pearl Harbor against an offshore attack since the naval manuevers of 1932 discovered just how vulnerable the island was.

Richardson was (unexpectedly) relieved of the Fleet command in January, 1941.

The American Ambassador to Tokyo, Joseph C. Grew, was one of the first to officially discover that Pearl Harbor was the intended target of the Japanese attack, as he corresponded with President Roosevelt's State Department on January 27, 1941: "The Peruvian minister has informed a member of my staff that he had heard from many sources, including a Japanese source, that, in the event of trouble breaking out between the United States and Japan, the Japanese intended to make a surprise attack against Pearl Harbor...."

By August of 1941, the Dies committee had assembled a large amount of evidence which more than confirmed the suspicions which we had entertained on the basis of surface appearances: It was clear that the Japanese were preparing to invade Pearl Harbor and that they were in possession of vital military information.

This information was made available to the Roosevelt administration by Congressman Dies personally. But this was the second time that Dies had appealed to Roosevelt about his knowledge of Japan's intention to attack Pearl Harbor. Early in 1941 the Dies Committee came into possession of a strategic map which gave clear proof of the intentions of the Japanese to make an assault on Pearl Harbor. The strategic map was prepared by the Japanese Imperial Military Intelligence Department.

Dies telephoned Secretary of State Cordell Hull who talked to President Roosevelt.

Congressman Dies was told not to release the document to the public, and the Roosevelt administration did nothing. (In April, 1964, when Dies told the American public of these revelations, he added this comment: "If anyone questions the veracity and accuracy of these statements, I will be glad to furnish him with conclusive proof.")

October 16, 1941, Henry Stimson, Roosevelt's Secretary of War, wrote the following in his diary: "... and so we face the delicate question of the diplomatic fencing to be done so as to be sure that Japan be put into the wrong and to make the first bad move—overt move."

Stimson was to repeat this concern that faced the Roosevelt administration when he testified before one of the Committees investigating Pearl Harbor. There he was quoted as saying: "The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves."

Mr. Sorge was a Russian spy who had infiltrated the German embassy in Japan and worked hard to convince Japanese officials that Japan should not attack Russia, but move south, at the risk of war with the United States.

When Sorge informed the Kremlin [in Russia] in October, 1941, that the Japanese intended to attack Pearl Harbor within 60 days, he received thanks for his report and the notice that Washington — Roosevelt, Marshall, Admiral Stark, et al. — had been advised of the Japanese intentions.

[silberwolf1960]

My :2cents: On this thread coming from the view of a combat vet and a amn that has trained with different countries armies during the Cold War.
We as solidiers really don't give a rat's ass about politics or politians. You can tell they are lying cause their lips are moving.
Also having served in Iraq, if the itel weinies would work together and not hold back critical intel and the politians would shut the fuck up and grow up. This thread would probably be about a different subject. I leave you with this quote I don't remember the author but it goes: " Women and children sleep peacefully at night ,because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

[darkeyes]

My :2cents: On this thread coming from the view of a combat vet and a amn that has trained with different countries armies during the Cold War.
We as solidiers really don't give a rat's ass about politics or politians. You can tell they are lying cause their lips are moving.
Also having served in Iraq, if the itel weinies would work together and not hold back critical intel and the politians would shut the fuck up and grow up. This thread would probably be about a different subject. I leave you with this quote I don't remember the author but it goes: " Women and children sleep peacefully at night ,because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

As a pacifist I would turn that on its head to read.. "Women and children are unable to sleep at night because rough men (and nowadays women) do violence on behalf of a ruling elite which gives not one jot for either them or those whose sleep they disturb".. clumsy and long winded.. but apt..