American Rightwing is going crazy!!

[12voltman59]

The crazy stuff coming from the American rightwing types is coming so fast--it is hard to keep up with it all---but in Oklahoma--a state representative running for the Repulbican nomination for governor of that state has called for the creation of a seperate state militia to "resist the federal government."

http://www.dailymail.com/ap/ApTopStories/201004120781

Also--the newly elected governor of Virginia--a graduate of Pat Robertson's Regent University--and whose graduate thesis argued that women in the workplace "harmed the nature of the family" has done a number of things since he took office that are on the rightwing agenda--one being that he removed protections for GLBT state workers.

His latest thing----he has put in rules that require non-violent felony offenders who are to get their voting rights restored---have to write a personal essay to the governor about the sorts of things that they have done that merit restoration of those rights--which according to federal law are supposed to be automatically restored---with one of the things you are supposed to include----listing your involvement with a church!!!

[void()]

Void dons the Jane (from Firely) voice. "Hi fucking larious."

That's part of why I avoid the news. It's all so dang funny anymore.

[Lady_Passion]

Amen? :bibounce:

[12voltman59]

I forgot another crazy as hell comment from a right wing politico in recent days--Haley Barber, former head of the Republican National Committee some time ago and now governor of the state of Mississippi was being interveiwed by Candy Crowley of CNN---he was talking about slavery---calling it "not worth diddly to be concerned about" or something to that effect.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0412/mississippi-gov-mcdonnells-slavery-omission-doesnt-matter-diddly/

[FalconAngel]

Is any of that any different from the right wing religious nuts anywhere else in the world? Uganda has put on the back burner (for now) their death penalty for Gays bill.
I expect that once Pat Robertson and the rest of that merry band of right wing hypocrites get a chance, they will be pushing them, once again, to get that passed over there.

[TaylorMade]

And how many people think this is actually how conservatives- - real, living, breathing, people you actually encounter, not some HuffPo imagining of a Glenn Beck Obsessed Tea Partier - - think?

Not a lot.

I'm starting to wonder if you guys have a second job at projectionists because I've never seen such monomaniacal, paranoid, and bigoted posters, even on the 10-15 political message boards I've wandered through.

I'm beyond arguing because I'm disgusted by both the caricatures you present AND the caricatures you are.


http://im.sify.com/sifycmsimg/mar2008/News/14631457_black_tea.jpg


*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

And how many people think this is actually how conservatives- - real, living, breathing, people you actually encounter, not some HuffPo imagining of a Glenn Beck Obsessed Tea Partier - - think?

Not a lot.

I'm starting to wonder if you guys have a second job at projectionists because I've never seen such monomaniacal, paranoid, and bigoted posters, even on the 10-15 political message boards I've wandered through.

I'm beyond arguing because I'm disgusted by both the caricatures you present AND the caricatures you are.


http://im.sify.com/sifycmsimg/mar2008/News/14631457_black_tea.jpg


*Taylor*

I think you miss the point Taylor..these are people who have been elected and have a modicum of power and influence... and no not all conservative people think such as they.. but more than maybe you like to think... especially in parts of the world other than the one in which you know and live..

[bemyonlyone]

I admit that I don't like political conservatives. If that bothers you, oh well. I've just come across too many who cause problems. If that makes me a bigot, oh well. The Republican club at my school actually tried to have the students of color organization removed from the school. The conservatives at my school have shown themselves to be both racist and homophobic. That's just how I feel, sorry.

[darkeyes]

I admit that I don't like political conservatives. If that bothers you, oh well. I've just come across too many who cause problems. If that makes me a bigot, oh well. The Republican club at my school actually tried to have the students of color organization removed from the school. The conservatives at my school have shown themselves to be both racist and homophobic. That's just how I feel, sorry.

I think the rank and file of most right wing political groups even on the so called mainstream are much more racist than the official leaderships... and many of senior politicians of those parties I always feel either pay lip service to equality or bite their lips very hard when the subject is brought up and in the number of gaffs which betray their true personal agenda... you just have to listen to their waffling and public utterances on xenophobia and immigration to suspect the truth of it..

This does not excuse for instance the Labour Party in the UK, which has many erstwhile supporters, some members, and the odd parliamentarian who are as racist as any BNPer or Tory.. in particular among their older support. This can be seen visibly by the considerable numbers of previously traditional labour voters who have defected to the BNP in local and European elections.

[Lady_Passion]

Skip over to Sean Hannity's site for a peek at some serious rightwing nut cases.

Having been deep into voting activism, working with Governmental Affairs for a State Chamber, conducting tours while laws were being passed and very briefly working for a couple of rightwing bigoted attorneys, I feel no compunction about calling them what they are. However, the left is not much better when voting records are scrutinized.

Vocally the left and right represent two fronts. On paper they generally support each other by voting or not voting on certain issues. Neither is likely to do anything 'for the people' that would make it tough for themselves or their corporate welfare clients.

Typically, the average person on the street is not an extremist and does not support either the right or the left entirely. That would be an extremist act in itself. There are shades of gray, and good reasons why independents are increasing in number and why independent representatives are suppressed by the primary right and left factions. Even so, independent, far right and far left politicians help maintain the status quo. They can say whatever they want because they know they'll never get sufficient support to buck the two primary parties. In the meantime, 'the people' lose and we pay for what we have because we let it be that way.

Honestly, if enough of us really REALLY cared, we'd be protesting relentlessly in the thousands without pause until we got what we wanted. We don't need the rights we don't really have if we just focused on what is really important and works for everyone, and stood our ground.

[Bluebiyou]

LOL
American Rightwing is going crazy.
So has/is the leftwing.
One can hardly blame the leftwingers after 8 years of of Bush (JR).
(Quiet lament; even though 'the Gipper' was my favorite president, if only Bush Sr, the most qualified man in the white house in easily the last half a century, had gotten the full 8 years... lament, lament).
Alas, the fruit did not fall closely to the tree with JR.
And with the potential devastation to the health industry, the space industry, and the economy along the way (you think it's bad now?) courtesy of Obama and left wingers.
But I digress.
Remember just two years ago that (please note sarcasm in next phrase) conservative bastion of Vermont, was threatening to secede from the union.
Although, in truth each 'state' was originally thought of as it's own country, with mutual concerns similar enough to become the 'united states', very like the recent 'European union' (best European move since inventing blonde Swedish girls and Scotish tarts).
Personally, it's good to see anti federalist sentiment in the usa, every now and then.
The European union is still too young and diverse to be singing the anti federalist song.

[void()]

I'll be your Baphemet. I vote no confidence. I laugh at politics in general for it's hilariousness in a funny and serious way. That pees in your Cheerioe(tm), I don't need to apologize. See, just because I vote by not having confidence in the government does not automatically usurp the birthrights said government offers. I can speak my point of view, and if all I can do is laugh, so be it. Thinking about it and crying do no good. To hell with it all then, I'll laugh.

[darkeyes]

Although, in truth each 'state' was originally thought of as it's own country, with mutual concerns similar enough to become the 'united states', very like the recent 'European union' (best European move since inventing blonde Swedish girls and Scotish tarts).


..left wing Scottish tarts if u pulleeeeze :bigrin:.... the othas mite look yummie (an ver often r) but they don count..;):tong:;)

.. is always gud 2 hav anti govt sentiment at ne time not jus federal.... keeps the sods from gettin 2 cocky an complacent..

..an it wosn the left who got us inta the economic mess we r in ( an wiv it ya holy cow space industry..).. or that stopped summat like 1 in 6 'mericans havin propa health care... an certainly isn the left that thinks ver much a Obama's health care reform.. at least no propa left... but it mite jus b betta than ya had if it dus the job thats hoped for from it..

..still ya mite b rite..an so mite piggies fly...:tong:

[Lady_Passion]

I'll be your Baphemet. I vote no confidence. I laugh at politics in general for it's hilariousness in a funny and serious way. That pees in your Cheerioe(tm), I don't need to apologize. See, just because I vote by not having confidence in the government does not automatically usurp the birthrights said government offers. I can speak my point of view, and if all I can do is laugh, so be it. Thinking about it and crying do no good. To hell with it all then, I'll laugh.

Thank you. Politics is less refined than wrestling entertainment. I believe the last best debates had to be between Lincoln and Douglas. And even then votes were not transparently accountable anymore than the real issues were addressed.

[FalconAngel]

And how many people think this is actually how conservatives- - real, living, breathing, people you actually encounter, not some HuffPo imagining of a Glenn Beck Obsessed Tea Partier - - think?

Not a lot.

I'm starting to wonder if you guys have a second job at projectionists because I've never seen such monomaniacal, paranoid, and bigoted posters, even on the 10-15 political message boards I've wandered through.

I'm beyond arguing because I'm disgusted by both the caricatures you present AND the caricatures you are.


http://im.sify.com/sifycmsimg/mar2008/News/14631457_black_tea.jpg


*Taylor*

It isn't the conservatives, as a whole, that are the problem. It is the right wing ultra-conservative Christians that have come to power and are doing everything possible to whittle away at our constitution and human rights that are the problem.
And those people are the Glenn Becks, Rush Limbaughs and Pat Robertsons of the world. The rest just follow because they just don't know better or just don't think for themselves.

The caracature is not so much a characature so much as it is an accurate description of party politicking, Constitution hating, hypocrites that we the people have allowed to be in power.

It is those people that have whittled away at civil rights. and plan on usurping more, if given the chance.

The job of protecting that freedom, which those people want to remove under the guise of protecting us from ourselves or protecting our souls, is the responsibility of all of us. Some as physical guardians, ready to fight, if the need arises, and some as guardians, through the voting processes.
As a fighter, I have the easier job. As a voter, I have the toughest job, because, as a voter, I am morally obligated to study the candidates as thoroughly as possible to determine if the person running for office is worthy of the job; if they are honest or if they are just another oathbreaker that just seeks power for power's sake.

So far, we have all allowed oathbreakers to sit in offices for which they are neither qualified or worthy. Had we been more vigilant, we would not have this current problem.

We must end our own complacency to end this problem.

[Lady_Passion]

We lost civil rights way back with Swift v. Tyson and Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins. Property cannot sue property, i.e., Americans became citizens aka straw citizens aka chattel. That's the basis upon which lawmakers have since proceeded.

[nwmscurious]

I forgot another crazy as hell comment from a right wing politico in recent days--Haley Barber, former head of the Republican National Committee some time ago and now governor of the state of Mississippi was being interveiwed by Candy Crowley of CNN---he was talking about slavery---calling it "not worth diddly to be concerned about" or something to that effect.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0412/mississippi-gov-mcdonnells-slavery-omission-doesnt-matter-diddly/

If you're going to be talking about our whackjob governor, please spell his name right: it's B-A-R-B-O-U-R. While you're at it, feel blessed that you he's not your governor. :soapbox:

[Lady_Passion]

Did you know blow jobs and any kind of oral sex is illegal in Virginia. You can go to jail for being naughty like that :bounce:

[citystyleguy]

the crazies are to the right, the crazies are to the left, and don't even get started on the middle! what's a decent liberal, or conservative, to do, but fight against the madness until yingandyang are acheived! ...and people wonder why i like politics as much as i do!

[Alaskan Couple]

Did you know blow jobs and any kind of oral sex is illegal in Virginia. You can go to jail for being naughty like that :bounce:

Heck, just look on the bright side, illegal activity is always more exciting!

[darkeyes]

I've seen racists and homophobes of every political stripe. Liberals don't have the corner on the market of tolerance, not by a long shot. Even queers aren't a terribly tolerant lot. Just look at the past two weeks on this board. If you happen to disagree on the best way to help LBGT issues, you get labeled as anti-LGBT and the vitriol flows about your relationship vis a vis the closet. So, take that bark to another tree.

Yeah, some conservatives are going crazy. Then again, some liberals are bound and determined to take away our economy, construct a nanny state, and take away and our ability to make choices everywhere BUT the bedroom (tried getting a can of R-12 freon lately? How about eating at a restaurant that had transfats in their food? And geesus Christ if you think you can light up a cigarette even in your own home in many places. How about getting gas without ethanol? Or how about choosing what school your kids go to, or how about getting a regular lightbulb if that's what you want in your home? And on, and on, and on.)

Before you get high and mighty, you might want to apply some logic to your statements. You on the left are not blameless, not by a loooong shot.

Pasa

I agree wivya Pasa as far as it goes.. parties of the left do hav their racists an hav moren they care 2 admit.. sed so in me previous post.. but parties of the rite hav ther racists in far, far gr8er numbas an in general rite up 2 a much more senior official level than parties of the left.. an in general ther policies r much less friendly an much more xenophobic.. is not a hard an fast rule but it holds up pretty well.. more so in opposition than government but when in government, left governments r generally not quite so proactive in pursuin an imposin the worst of ne racist agendas.. an much more sympathetic 2 the plight of immigrants an ethnic minorities.. ther r exceptions but as a rule it seems 2 hold true..

.. so no we r not blameless, an no, not by a long shot.. but we r much less blameless... nowt 2 brag 'bout.. but claims a left blame dusn let parties a the rite escape ther fair share.. an that fair share is a much gr8er slice of the cake of blame... an that is by a long shot..

[Hephaestion]

What a mess USA laws are e.g. Local versus Federal interpretations and decisions.

As for the sex parts, one is inclined to believe it is April Fool's day 365(.25) days a year. In reading around (God Bless this site and its educational value) one finds a chap who was baited by a hostile wife/finacee and inadvertantly found himself transgressing a law on giving oral sex and so was sentenced to 5 yrs for this - in the late 1990's!

Please stay the hell away from us in the UK where we enjoy just about anything with almost total freedom, as led by our gracious Royals.

[darkeyes]

What a mess USA laws are e.g. Local versus Federal interpretations and decisions.

As for the sex parts, one is inclined to believe it is April Fool's day 365(.25) days a year. In reading around (God Bless this site and its educational value) one finds a chap who was baited by a hostile wife/finacee and inadvertantly found himself transgressing a law on giving oral sex and so was sentenced to 5 yrs for this - in the late 1990's!

Please stay the hell away from us in the UK where we enjoy just about anything with almost total freedom, as led by our gracious Royals.

Hahahahahaha Heph.... they do lead by example wen it cums 2 a bitta notty!!! They mite not b ne gud for owt else.. but for that..ya cant beat 'em!!:tong:

[TwylaTwobits]

I don't know about most of y'all but this seems to be reminscent of a period in our history where we had some little trouble around a place called Ft. Sumpter................

[bemyonlyone]

I've seen racists and homophobes of every political stripe. Liberals don't have the corner on the market of tolerance, not by a long shot. Even queers aren't a terribly tolerant lot. Just look at the past two weeks on this board. If you happen to disagree on the best way to help LBGT issues, you get labeled as anti-LGBT and the vitriol flows about your relationship vis a vis the closet. So, take that bark to another tree.

Yeah, some conservatives are going crazy. Then again, some liberals are bound and determined to take away our economy, construct a nanny state, and take away and our ability to make choices everywhere BUT the bedroom (tried getting a can of R-12 freon lately? How about eating at a restaurant that had transfats in their food? And geesus Christ if you think you can light up a cigarette even in your own home in many places. How about getting gas without ethanol? Or how about choosing what school your kids go to, or how about getting a regular lightbulb if that's what you want in your home? And on, and on, and on.)

Before you get high and mighty, you might want to apply some logic to your statements. You on the left are not blameless, not by a loooong shot.

Pasa


Hmm. You and your wife don't like me very much, I think. *laughs*

I never said I was blameless, but I find most Republicans absolutely disgusting, in my experience, because of their actions. Let me say it again: the Republican Club at my school attempted to remove the group for students of color. I'm sure they've gone after the lgbt club as well. They have shown themselves to be racist and homophobic, and many Republicans are. My experience. A lot of Republicans think the poor deserve to be poor, public assistance should be done away with, women shouldn't be able to take the morning after pill OR get an abortion, single mothers are whores who don't deserve any rights, gay people shouldn't be able to marry, and so on. I want to keep myself as far away from people like that as possible. Being a biracial, bisexual woman with a number of issues directly affected by their bigotry, it makes sense.

A lot of conservatives' beliefs are particularly cruel to women, lgbt people, poor people, and people of color. I belong to every single one of those groups...so that's all I have to say.

[TwylaTwobits]

Cheers Pasa, that was in my opinion, right on the mark.

[diamond_tether]

Bullshit.

The party of the left has kept minorities enslaved to the government for generations, creating their dependence upon the government for their very subsistence, taking away that aid if those people ever get a job thereby ensuring that the vast majority won't even bother. Ensuring that the minorities will vote for them by promising to raise the entitlements, while making racist remarks about any on the right who wish to cut back entitlements.

It's a much more insidious racism. It's racism that shakes your hand while putting on the shackles that you don't even realize are there. It's racism that not only affects individuals, but entire generations of people in huge swaths.

Don't give me the bullshit that the right are full of racists. It was the Republicans who pushed through the largest of the civil rights bills. It is Republicans who insist that all men are created equal, and that all men will succeed, or fail, by his own merits. It is Democrats who insist that the black man can't do it without the government's help. It is Democrats who insist that all men are not created equal, and therefor must have quotas. It is the left that insists that government is the key to salvation for the colored man, rather than the sweat of a man's brow, the industriousness of his spirit, and the creativity of his heart.

Pasa


This really bothers me. The government is keeping the black man down? Ridiculous. We can start with the the fact that white folks are still the majority population in this country and therefore have more individuals receiving some form of financial assistance than blacks. Period. Are the ratios higher with minority statistics? Yes, but that's due in large part to the fact that the minorities are, in fact, minorities and so the numbers are functionally skewed based on smaller sample sizes.

I find it severely distasteful and telling that whenever the subject of state or federal assistance comes up in the conservative community it typically jumps right to the number of blacks and 'illegal' latinos 'draining the system' and 'settling for mediocrity' when common sense and simple population statistics tell a different story.

[Bluebiyou]

For Fran,
please continue to show us your opinion. One can truly see one's self better with a mirror, than with one's own eyes directly. Your view, outside of ABC, NBC, CNN, Limbaugh, NPR, or DrudgeReport is void of their constant biases that we in the usa... usually become unaware of.
I often disagree with you, but your insights are invaluable.
I am a dyed-in-the-wool republican, pulled the sweeping single 'republican' switch more times in the voting booth than I can recall.
I recall the savage disagreements and personal attacks between DD and Mage.
I've seen a few on this site categorize and attack you in savage lynchings where the lines between the trolls and the regulars disappeared.
I've seen others banned and/or silenced for insults while PAS directly threatened to break wrists in the recent circumcision thread.
Your opinion, Fran, is gold here. You are respected and loved by many, even if I do often disagree with you.

For PAS,
I understand your passion. It is an understatement to say that you are opinionated. Please, I beg you please, use additional restraint in attacking 'the individual' in your posts.

For LDD,
same to you when you feel Twyla Twobits feels attacked. You might need to defend her in a NZ bar, but not here. Sure, her feelings might be hurt, she might be actually challenged, but your protecting her from physical harm is not necessary on this site. She can get pissed, ignore, or be challenged ...for her own personal growth here. While your - standing up for her - shows your unquestionable love for her (and vice versa), you might actually stand in the way of her personal growth by your actions on this site (defending her). She might not want to be defended here. As for me, nothing but the best wishes for you both! I genuinely admire, respect the love you have for one another and wish that level of love for all people. You two truly have a rare, good, and wonderful thing.

Editorial final comments:

TG_Jeannie... or Jeannie, was very nearly, mostly, but not entirely correct in her most recent post regarding regulars on this board.

This is by no means a self righteous jab/condemnation.
I myself have grievously insulted and possibly even harmed (emotionally) some wonderful people on this site and deeply regret it. There have been times I came home, tired from work, have a few beers, do some chores, have a few more beers, and jump online only to find people saying the most outrageous and horrible things. To which... the only sensible reaction is to attack these horrible people. Their nonsense must be corrected or silenced, right? Oops. That's where I have often completely gone over the line, just like the others Jeannie pointed out.
Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Best wishes,
Blue

[TwylaTwobits]

ummm pardon me but are you in the right thread? LDD doesn't defend me, I do that very well myself, thanks. LDD doesn't control my opinions or my postings either, let me be clear on that. I am a thinking, feeling, intelligent and fairly articulate person. I am unclear why you feel the need to bring Jeannie up in this thread. Jeannie made a lot of unfounded accusations and was personally insulting to more than a few people. She found her way to the ignore list and I am happy to leave her there. (Edit, yes i read your edit and appreciate that you respect our love, but again he has NEVER defended me on this site. Please show me one post where he made a defense for me. We have equally defended our love but he has never defended me in a post on here. I have defended him and quite frankly will do so again, it's who I am. I protect the ones I love. I have also defended others on here who get slammed with things that are untrue and downright spiteful(IE cumsloppyhole calling onewhocares a faghag, or people who feel the need to comment on a members pictures in a derogatory manner)


As for Pasa, yes he's passionate, but he was responding to a post in this thread. I'm also American and I can agree with most of what he says but I don't feel any opinions should be silenced. But again the nuances of a country to the people within are often more apparent than to people outside recieving only the news that either totally left or totally right want to spread. Not all news is reported by people who are only doing their job and have an unbiased opinion.

And to the breaking wrists, he was directly responding to people telling him he had mutilated and molested his children by allowing them to be circumsized. I felt the same way and responded just as vehemently albeit without mentioning violence. Now can we let all the dead issues on this board drop and keep to the current topics? We have been a fairly happy board lately, don't drag us back down. I don't mean that in a snarky way either, but just to let you know that we have no intention of turning this place of comfort into a warzone. If you don't like our posts then feel free to click. It solves a lot of issues.

[Bluebiyou]

...

Ummm. Okay.
I disagree with a good deal of what you said, just from observation on several threads.
Yes, you are your own person. LDD does (on occasion) defend you (it's a clear sign he loves you so incredibly much and I'm sure you'd do the same for him). Most of your other assertions are (sorry to say) irrational (emotionally based with no substantiation).

Jeannie did make a lot of sense. Sorry.

But, I stand clear on my admiration of the love you and LDD have for each other. Your love for each other stands as something the rest of us have only rarely had and always hope for. If in any way, I interfere with the height or longevity of that wonderful love, please place me on 'ignore'. You two are truly blessed.

[tenni]

Oh...Blue.....you silver tongued devil...:bigrin:

I guess some don't realize that they are members of the Borg whether they are members of the right or left. Are there more in the right or the left? I'd bet on the right. The word conservative doesn't seem to apply as much as the international meaning of right winged.

One question that I would have is do these people realize the added expense of maintaining a State militia?

[FalconAngel]

One question that I would have is do these people realize the added expense of maintaining a State militia?

Tenni, the states already know the expense.

Who do you think pays the National Guard's operational and logistical costs, when they are not activated for federal duty?

It also explains why NGB troops get paid better, on state duty, than federal troops and federal reserve troops on active duty.

When my dad was in the Army National Guard, as a CSM, he got better pay for his time than a CSM, with the same years in grade, in the regular Army did.

So the states know the financial cost.

[12voltman59]

I know it was the Ketih Olberman show and according to some--Olberman is Satan's own spawn----but on last night's show--he had someone on he was interviewing about the militiia thing that Oklahoma candidate was proposing---they read a clause from the US Constitution that specifcially states that any state militia that is formed---comes under the command and control of the Commander in Chief-- with the CinC-being of course--the President of the US---so it would hardly do them any good to create new state militias to try to "resist" Obama's supposed communinst/socialist/Islamic terrorist plans---take your pick as to which one of those Obama is supposed to be in any particular instant.

It was interesting----Ron Paul--the darling of many of those of the Tea Party folks----was speaking at one of their rallys and he told the crowd the same thing I have been saying---that Obama is not in any way a socialist or communist--but that he is a "corporatist"--and he also said something else I have said--the many members of the Republican party are "corporatists" too---of course there is no real corporatist movement or anything--but it merely means that Obama, most Democrats and Republicans alike have been bought and paid for by corporate interests and they tend to work more in favor of what is best for big corporations over what is best for the average person and society in general.

It really doesn't matter who takes your rights---big government is not a good thing but big business allowed to run unfettered is clearly not good either---go back and read your history from the days of "lassez faire capitalism"/the Robber Barons and such---those who ran those big corporate interests in those days were hardly friends of freedom for most people----and they aren't so much now either---what is really bad is when big government and big business/corporations become joined at the hip----the rest of us don't have a chance--I just cannot get it that those on the right who supposedly love freedom just don't get it that "big business" is no friend of liberty for anyone but those who are in its power structure in some way.

They are good at playing lip service to being "lovers of freedom" but they are anything but that!!

If we are going to lose our rights in this nation--its not gonna be communism or socialism that takes it--it will be the total melding of the private, big money interests with the state and as I do recall--that is for the most part the definiton of Facism--but in this case---I will go with Ron Paul and others on both the right and left who recognize this---- who call it "Corporatism." It is more or less what China is morphing into as well-and really--old terms like communism, captialism, socialism, and facism really don't apply since those are all pretty much outdated---and this new form of being will take a new form from any of those---another reason I find the Tea Party and other pissed off people on the right side of things to be "misguided"--they are thinking so "old school" and pretty much early 20th century to call Obama "socialist"----he is anything but that!!!!

[tenni]

Voltie
I find your above post reinforcing my belief about brainwashing..;)

[12voltman59]

yeah--Right Tenni!!!!

I do say---things like "if it happens-it is more likely to be X---" I don't say with the absolute certainty that so many people like Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter and such say that Obama is doing---when there is really no actual indication of that---hell---many on the left were pretty damn sure that Bush would go and proclaim himself Prez for Life or something----and those holding camps that they were supposedly building--it was where anyone who didn't swear fidelity to Bush were gonna be put----now the Tea Party folks figure that is where Obama is gonna put them!!

What is really happening----I don't think there is any question---we have seen a major dismantiling of the middle class to be sure--and that I can agree with the Tea Party folks on that----but who dismantled the middle class was not people like Barack Obama--it is those who own the manufacturing plants and out of whatever reason---allowed themselves to be lured to switching their manufacturing to places like China in search of low wages and other reasons----with no corresponding way to replace that jobs that are gone now here leaving many people in a real bind---and that does take away from the quality of life of most people --if ya don't have a decent job and no chance of getting one--so goody for you if you can own guns to your hearts content or something!

Now--those people who own those companies here in America that took the jobs to some city in China ya never heard of before that a few years ago had maybe a hundred thousand people and now is a city of three million--they still live nice, plush lives and if China gets to a point that the workers there cost too much--they will again move the factories to some new place that they don't have to pay the rank and file workers much----

So--this is the way "corporatists" work--they don't care where they make their mioney---just as long as they can make it someplace--they no longer really have much allegiance to any country when it comes down to it--its all about their bottom line.

My biggest beef with Barack Obama--is that if they are going to be spending money like a drunken sailor--Obama and his crowd had better find us some new industries that can create decent paying jobs for the average Joe and Jane and invest in those industries!!!

I don't blame the Tea Party for being pissed about that--I am!!!

It is also a pisser that no one who can make a difference that way (the corporatist crowd) seems to be really doing much to create those new industries and jobs or at least undertaking some mass scale sort of job training programs to help people make meaningful transitons from jobs like building cars and appliances to those new era jobs!!

[bemyonlyone]

I find your assumptions that black/latino/native american/asian people are more likely to receive government assistance, and don't bother to get jobs, quite racist, actually. Way to prove my point.

And did you really just use the word "colored"? *shakes head*

Oh well, just another thoroughly confused, white (I assume, and really hope you are) male bisexual Republican. How sad.

[bemyonlyone]

Oh and P.S....there is no excuse for what the Republicans at my school did. Explain to me how trying to destroy a support system set in place for STUDENTS OF COLOR (not colored students as you would probably have it) proves any kind of point except that they're bigoted pieces of shit.

The fact that you can find any acceptable reason to imagine that could be okay proves that you probably would have been right there with those fuckers, trying to take away a group that helps people like myself. Oh, and would you accompany them as they then went to destroy the LGBT club? Oh wait...oops! Hit a wall there, didn't we? And suddenly, you realize why being a Republican isn't really as intelligent a notion as you once thought.

Is someone supposed to bow down and praise you because you chose a job that would allow you to maintain your worldview that people of color are inferior? Good for you. Oh, they get free lunch, oh they're on welfare, oh, I can keep thinking I'm better than they are. Oh, I deign to help them, you should think I'm great.

Oh, and data! OMG! DATA!

*rolls eyes*

[bemyonlyone]

Have you read anything I've posted? Have you answered a single question I've asked of you? All you have done is attack. I have provided proof, data, evidence. Further, you have attacked me, personally, while I have refused to do the same to you.

If you wish to continue, we can have a rational conversation, where you make a statement, I respond, and you respond to what I say. OR, you can continue to simply lash out. One of those options might lead to stimulating conversation and debate. The other will lead to the iggy button.

Pasa

Yes, I read what you posted. I don't have to answer any of your questions, because I'm not one of your students (some teachers have this problem a lot, I've noticed, thinking people who aren't their students should be treated like their students...you obviously do). It's not my job to pat you on the head and praise you for sharing your views, that I care for not a bit.

I don't care what you think. At all. Go ahead and get mad, you're still just as wrong as when you could have just kept your thoughts to yourself.

[bemyonlyone]

blacks are 500% more likely to receive welfare than whites.


Pasa

What a fucking crock of shit.

[Long Duck Dong]

Oh and P.S....there is no excuse for what the Republicans at my school did. Explain to me how trying to destroy a support system set in place for STUDENTS OF COLOR (not colored students as you would probably have it) proves any kind of point except that they're bigoted pieces of shit.

The fact that you can find any acceptable reason to imagine that could be okay proves that you probably would have been right there with those fuckers, trying to take away a group that helps people like myself. Oh, and would you accompany them as they then went to destroy the LGBT club? Oh wait...oops! Hit a wall there, didn't we? And suddenly, you realize why being a Republican isn't really as intelligent a notion as you once thought.

Is someone supposed to bow down and praise you because you chose a job that would allow you to maintain your worldview that people of color are inferior? Good for you. Oh, they get free lunch, oh they're on welfare, oh, I can keep thinking I'm better than they are. Oh, I deign to help them, you should think I'm great.

Oh, and data! OMG! DATA!

*rolls eyes*

simply and bluntly, people can not have it both ways..... you either want help and support for some aspect, that is a admittance that you are have issues that is not affecting other groups.... or you want to get treated the same as other groups... but then have the right to claim discrimination and inequality.....

any group that believes that their rights have been * trampled * on, is gonna claim ill treatment and discrimination... yet be blind to the fact that some of the rights they claim, create a inequality aspect

there is viable groups that require special rights and support, ie, mentally challenged groups, people with disabilities etc......

you can slam the democrats or the repubs for their actions.... but at the end of the day, no matter what is done, some groups will be waiting to scream about how its wrong and how its stupid etc..... but at the end of the day, there is no prefect system....
merely a imprefect system being created by imprefect people for imprefect people in a imprefect country living in a imperfect world

as a wise man once said.... if you dislike the way things are run, you may do one of 3 things.... get elected yourself and apply your rules.... express your opinion with your vote..... or bitch on the internet and make excuses as to why you are not getting elected and making laws and rules that others will slam you over, in a internet forum.....

[bemyonlyone]

simply and bluntly, people can not have it both ways..... you either want help and support for some aspect, that is a admittance that you are have issues that is not affecting other groups.... or you want to get treated the same as other groups... but then have the right to claim discrimination and inequality.....

any group that believes that their rights have been * trampled * on, is gonna claim ill treatment and discrimination... yet be blind to the fact that some of the rights they claim, create a inequality aspect

there is viable groups that require special rights and support, ie, mentally challenged groups, people with disabilities etc......

you can slam the democrats or the repubs for their actions.... but at the end of the day, no matter what is done, some groups will be waiting to scream about how its wrong and how its stupid etc..... but at the end of the day, there is no prefect system....
merely a imprefect system being created by imprefect people for imprefect people in a imprefect country living in a imperfect world

as a wise man once said.... if you dislike the way things are run, you may do one of 3 things.... get elected yourself and apply your rules.... express your opinion with your vote..... or bitch on the internet and make excuses as to why you are not getting elected and making laws and rules that others will slam you over, in a internet forum.....


How about helping by working towards equality for everyone? Oh, wow, what a crazy thought. Actual equality.

[Long Duck Dong]

we did it in nz, equal rights and anti discrimination.... it doesn't work....
cos the moment you want seperate rights for any group on the grounds of sexuality, race, culture or other aspects, you create a inequal aspect in a * equal society

google maori rights in nz.... and you will see what is happening.... their seperate fishing rights that apply to maori, but would see a non maori in court
maori schools, maori prisons, maori maraes ( meeting places ) are exempt from anti discrimination laws on the grounds of culture... they are allowed to discriminate against females.....

they are a race of colour, that for many, many years, claimed discrimination,.... now they practise it......

the problem is not the government in nz or in the us..... its the people that want the discrimination to be stopped, while having the right to discriminate on their own terms..... some of them are in government..... and thats where it becomes a dammed site clearer that we can not remove discrimination and inequality, as by the very same laws that are passed, we create it when we support one groups rights over another group

[bemyonlyone]

Honestly, I'm speaking only about conservatives in my country, the U.S. They have shown themselves to be every kind of bigoted out there. I do firmly believe there is simply a higher concentration of bigots there. And nothing can really convince me otherwise. I've seen and experienced it firsthand.

[Long Duck Dong]

every person is a bigot in their own way, some are more visible than others.....

even I am a bigot in my own way.... as there is no way to have a perfectly balanced and totally unbiased opinion.... its just not possible....
it is the way that bigotry is expressed, that can make it offensive or non offensive.....

[MarieDelta]

Hmmm

Doing the Math (using the 2005 census numbers)

amount of whites recieving aid = 4994954

amount of blacks or african americans recieving aid = 3828843

Numbers look about equal to me , maybe a few more white folks are recieving aid.

Math, who knew it could be so fun...

Wait, I'm an engineer, I did :tongue:

[bemyonlyone]

I think I love you.

[TwylaTwobits]

Relying on Census figures though is something that has a plus or minus percentage. Statistically more whites fill out Census forms than blacks or other minorities, including our large undocumented Hispanic population. And even undocumented aliens (Ie people illegally in this country) can recieve Food Stamps.

[MarieDelta]

Relying on Census figures though is something that has a plus or minus percentage. Statistically more whites fill out Census forms than blacks or other minorities, including our large undocumented Hispanic population. And even undocumented aliens (Ie people illegally in this country) can recieve Food Stamps.

Of course twyla, but can you recommend a better source?

It all depends on what you are using the numbers for.

In some cases describing things as a percentage is easier to grasp(or manipulate.) In other cases it doesnt adequately descripe the situation. After all that is what numbers are for - they tell you what the situation is, there fore you can make decisions based on the facts.

However, sometimes, I believe both parties have been guilty of using numbers wrong.

They want the numbers to show something , they shade it a certain way to fit their agenda.

Numbers dont lie, mathemeticians do.


Dont forget 84% of statistics are made up(j/k)

[TwylaTwobits]

If I could lay my hands on a link I'd give it to you, Marie. I know the Departments that are responsible for Food Stamps and other things like welfare (TANF) have access to much more reliable numbers than the census provides.

[FalconAngel]

I find your assumptions that black/latino/native american/asian people are more likely to receive government assistance, and don't bother to get jobs, quite racist, actually. Way to prove my point.

And did you really just use the word "colored"? *shakes head*

Oh well, just another thoroughly confused, white (I assume, and really hope you are) male bisexual Republican. How sad.

There is a reason that racial profiling works.

Try living in South Florida. Blacks, Latinos and women have an infinitely easier time getting benefits that white men. Not that we deserve special treatment, just equal.

I have personally known quite a few women (all Black, btw) getting benefits for having kids and being unemployed, yet they are employed (same pay as me) with no reduction in benefits, as the law requires.
So I will keep your statement in mind when I am denied benefits and those that are abusing them drive around in a new car, 90 dollar fingernails (every 2 weeks) and 150 dollar hair extensions (every 3-4 weeks) while I am struggling just to pay basic bills.

They know that they are breaking the law and don't care. For me, it isn't about race, but it is about not enforcing the rules because of race.

The pendulum swings to the other side and that is not right either.

[bemyonlyone]

There is a reason that racial profiling works.



Oh, there is? And what might that reason be? I see no connection between this (in my opinion, quite racist) statement and what you said afterwards, which amounts to a basically a pile of crap that I've heard spewed out of the mouths of people who, being white, could not possibly have the slightest inkling of what it's like to be a POC in this country (not saying all white people say it, just saying the only people I've heard it from are white).Your opinion isn't worth much.

You say you've known quite a few women, I doubt you really knew them as people at all. Otherwise you wouldn't throw such hateful garbage into this forum.

Haha, I love how you bring this other side. Pasadena whatever says "oh, they won't be bothered to get a job." You say, "Oh, they get a job and that's bad."

I feel a little less safe knowing that anyone could be thinking what you say.

[MarieDelta]

Christian Science Monitor - Copyediting Tea Party Protest Signs

http://www.csmonitor.com/CSM-Photo-Galleries/In-Pictures/Copyediting-Tea-Party-protest-signs

ROFLMAO

"Respect are(sic) country, speak English"

Note to tea partiers: Spell check doesnt distinguish between homophones.

[TwylaTwobits]

OMFG Marie, awesome. I am literally laughing my ass off right now.

[12voltman59]

That montage is very funny--kinda sad too.

[darkeyes]

.. so no we r not blameless, an no, not by a long shot.. but we r much less blameless...

Reelly gonna havta proof read me posts more... for "much less blameless.. read much less 2 blame.. daft cow that me is..:( Ty 2 Katherine Naggy Knickers for pointin out me stupidity..:rolleyes:

[FalconAngel]

Oh, there is? And what might that reason be? I see no connection between this (in my opinion, quite racist) statement and what you said afterwards, which amounts to a basically a pile of crap that I've heard spewed out of the mouths of people who, being white, could not possibly have the slightest inkling of what it's like to be a POC in this country (not saying all white people say it, just saying the only people I've heard it from are white).Your opinion isn't worth much.

Do remember that you said all of that the next time a bunch of gang-banger kids pull up next to you at a street corner and start eying you.
Take note of the ethnicity of each and every one of them, that is if you have the courage to take a good look at them while they are staring you down.

You don't have to believe me, but you could try talking to a cop about it. I know quite a few and all of them, even the black and Latino cops say the same thing. "it works".


You say you've known quite a few women, I doubt you really knew them as people at all. Otherwise you wouldn't throw such hateful garbage into this forum.

How well do you know/have you known any of your co-workers? I have known mine at least as well, and many of the jobs that I have had in the past 25 years have been jobs where men comprised a very small percentage of the employees.

So now you are just being snide and ignoring facts.


Haha, I love how you bring this other side. Pasadena whatever says "oh, they won't be bothered to get a job." You say, "Oh, they get a job and that's bad."

Actually, I say that it is wrong to get money for being unemployed when they are quite gainfully employed.

Ever heard of double-dipping? In cases like that, the law calls it fraud
and that is a crime in this country, in case you were not aware.
And that fraud is with the tax dollars that we all pay.

No one should be rewarded for being a "breeder" as is often the case in welfare families (now going into the 5th generation of it, for many families). That is data from the fed. the vast majority of these welfare generations do, in fact, choose to not work because it is easier to take the free money and not contribute and then complain about how tough life is.


I feel a little less safe knowing that anyone could be thinking what you say.

And I feel infinitely less safe that people who are so touchy-feely that they only believe the best and refuse to recognize the worst, are out there running our government organizations that hand my tax dollars to people that are too lazy to contribute or are willing to violate state and federal law for personal profit.

Now I do not fault the ones that are trying; making the effort to do better for themselves honestly and within legal compliance.

I am, however, faulting the large and growing portion that do the exact opposite and break the laws, thus denying those funds to people that have contributed and actually deserve the help that these programs are supposed to be for. A group that you appear to be defending.

The human race is not this 1960's hippie fluffy bunny nice thing that you seem to see them as. We are a species that is predatory and those that can prey on the populace, their faulty programs and whatnot, will do so.

And in this country, political correctness over race has far more to do with it than anything else for no other reason that we, as a nation have held onto that racism for so long after slavery was abolished.

By the sound of it, you have bought into that PC bullshit.

Well guess what? People are what they are and, black or white, there are people that will, without any guilt, take advantage of their race to get things that they don't deserve.

So I suppose that guys like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton, who cry racism over some of the stupidest things, are not guilty of racism? They are keeping it alive to keep themselves in the news and famous. That, too is racism, even though you fail to recognize it.

Whether or not you recognize it, you are a member of the most successful predatory species on the planet. Get used to the fact that race has little to do with the good or the bad, but society, government ignorance and political correctness is very good at taking folks like you and conning them into believing some of the most unrealistic things.

Now if none of those things are true for your area, then good for you, but in the megalopolis that we call South Florida (populated, incorporated and industrialized from the northern edge of Jupiter -yes, we have a town called Jupiter- to within 3 miles of Key Largo), it is very true, as it is in any similar large metropolitan area.

[FalconAngel]

Christian Science Monitor - Copyediting Tea Party Protest Signs

http://www.csmonitor.com/CSM-Photo-Galleries/In-Pictures/Copyediting-Tea-Party-protest-signs

ROFLMAO

"Respect are(sic) country, speak English"

Note to tea partiers: Spell check doesnt distinguish between homophones.

Those were pretty good. Don't any of them proof read things? Particularly the one that was at a church.

[TwylaTwobits]

Those were pretty good. Don't any of them proof read things? Particularly the one that was at a church.

I actually took this and posted in a couple areas I belong to. One is a PG13 game and it fell in there so I posted it with it speaks for itself subject line, hyperlink Protest Illiterate.

Another place I mod the forums so I'm well aware with the political flavor it didn't belong out in the general area so I posted in the staff area and have already had several comments from staff in other countries that were laughing but feeling sad at same time.

I'd prefer to think they were just stupid than to think they didn't care enough about what they were saying to make sure it was spelled correctly.

[JP1986UM]

Shall people take a look at what the left wing is doing?

Lesse here....Congressman DEMOCRAT from Lusiana sentenced to 13 yrs for taking bribes:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/13/ex-rep-jefferson-sentenced-bribery-friday/

Democrats in California kill amendment to restore water to farmers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75jk5ZSqmAg

There's Barney Frank Protecting Fanny and Freddie a few years back...here's the tape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg
(That includes Super Queen Nancy Pelosi on it as well, so shield your eyes)

You know, there's a part of me that would love to see Palin wax Obowma in 2012 just to watch some of your heads explode, but frankly after the shit Obowma has caused, we need a better leader and someone who really can cut govt largess down to size to clean it up than her, so I'll take a pass on that.

Earlier this year, Barack Obama and Congressional Democrats celebrated the signing of their new pay-go rules that require Congress to explicitly fund any new legislation. Since then, they have gone 0-3 in complying with their own legislation, choosing to extend unemployment benefits through borrowing rather than redirect already-allocated funds for the purpose.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/35895.html

Heath Shuler now admits he never heard the racial slur he admits he heard before!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303348504575184081507879688.html

http://bigjournalism.com/sright/2010/04/15/so-rep-shuler-did-not-hear-the-phantom-n-word-after-all/

In 2009 alone, over 12 democrat house members were under investigation:
Sanford Bishop of Georgia, Jesse Jackson of Illinois, Allan Mollohan of West Virginia, John Murtha of Pennsylvania, Charlie Rangel of New York, Linda Sanchez of California, Loretta Sanchez of California, Pete Visclosky of Indiana.

Murtha got off easy because he croaked.

Rep. Charlie Rangel is likely one of the most corrupt members of the House and I have yet to hear you or any far-left-wingers rail against his bilking of taxpayers and illegalities.

The Left Wing Culture of Corruption spreads to Maxine Waters too. She likes her some largess:
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/10/30/culture-of-corruption-democrats-maxine-waters-and-laura-richardson-under-investigation/

Face it, liberals really like to pester people on minor bullshit, like some of the crap highlighted in post one. Ok, wow, you got them, they changed a rule which can easily be changed back. These people are corrupt and are driving our country into f'ng bankruptsy and you whistle by the fuckin graveyard while it happens. Which is libel to hurt us more?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/236383

By all estimates, the budget outlook is daunting. The latest projections of the Congressional Budget Office reckon the cumulative deficits under President Obama’s policies to be $12.7 trillion from 2009 to 2020. In 2020 the estimated annual deficit will be $1.25 trillion, or 5.6 percent of the economy (gross domestic product), despite assumed “full employment” of 5 percent. And the deficits get larger with every succeeding year. Given unavoidable uncertainties, these precise projections are likely to prove wrong. But their basic message seems incontestable: there’s a large and growing gap between the government’s promises and the existing tax base.

But let me remind you:
http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nov.jpg

[Hephaestion]

1) On the basis of population levels, is it time to review the way support is allocated to families; perhaps on a sliding scale?

'full' support for the 1st child
'half' support for the 2nd child
zero support for the 3rd and subsequent children

2) Corporate power - with Voltie on this one; the old classifications are fading away.

[darkeyes]

Hmmm

Doing the Math (using the 2005 census numbers)

amount of whites recieving aid = 4994954

amount of blacks or african americans recieving aid = 3828843

Numbers look about equal to me , maybe a few more white folks are recieving aid.

Math, who knew it could be so fun...

Wait, I'm an engineer, I did :tongue:

Hmm Marie I'm not sure your post doesn't back up Pasa's claim that Blacks are 5 times more likely to receive welfare aid than whites.. without checking figures blacks are also much more likely to be on welfare and social security in the UK..and in Europe..

This does NOT help Pasa's claim of course, because the fact of life is that in both our countries, and in continental Europe blacks have much more poverty and unemployment, much worse housing, and for those who are employed, are much less well paid and face much greater prejudice and difficulties in their lives which results in a restriction in the opportunities which society offers them from cradle to grave. It is therefore unsurprising that per head of population they are much more likely to receive social security and welfare aid. Pasa's point is commonly rolled out by parties of the extreme right in the UK and in Europe as proof that they in some way receive preferential treatment over the "native" white population.. and sometimes by so called more respectable mainstream right wing parties. They conveniently forget the reality... So Pasa's claim is a little disengenius since it does not reflect the reality..

[darkeyes]

we did it in nz, equal rights and anti discrimination.... it doesn't work....
cos the moment you want seperate rights for any group on the grounds of sexuality, race, culture or other aspects, you create a inequal aspect in a * equal society

google maori rights in nz.... and you will see what is happening.... their seperate fishing rights that apply to maori, but would see a non maori in court
maori schools, maori prisons, maori maraes ( meeting places ) are exempt from anti discrimination laws on the grounds of culture... they are allowed to discriminate against females.....

they are a race of colour, that for many, many years, claimed discrimination,.... now they practise it......

the problem is not the government in nz or in the us..... its the people that want the discrimination to be stopped, while having the right to discriminate on their own terms..... some of them are in government..... and thats where it becomes a dammed site clearer that we can not remove discrimination and inequality, as by the very same laws that are passed, we create it when we support one groups rights over another group

..and this Duckie darlin' is absolute and total bollox.. yes many societies have special provision for the indigenous population and yes these these are very different very often from how we may think and act.. there are historical reasons why these provisions exist and you know it. But equal rights and anti discrimination not work? Our societies are very much a "work in progress". We can see in the progress made in the last 60 years just what progress we have made in the area of rights and discrimination..throughout the western world. No things are not perfect. They are far from it.. but without the equal rights and anti discrimination legislation of the last half century and more where would we be? Gay and bisexual people? The Transgendered? What would be the place of non whites in our societies? Where would indegenous populations be? But because we are a work in progress things will change and things will get better.. as they have done for the latter part of the last century and the early years of this..

Problems will always occur and people will always criticise. But with time, thought, care, consideration and determination we will continue that progress and make things better. If we hadn't made the prgress we have in the realms of anti discrimination and equal rights we would still live in feudal societies... if not worse...

[Long Duck Dong]

its not bollox at all.....

its simple fact.... read about the treaty of waitangi settlements in NZ... then explain to me how 14% of nz's population ( approximately 340k are people of proven maori descent, the rest are able to claim by way of marriage etc ), can get 85 bill in cash and land over the last 20 years, yet still have the highest prison population count, the highest percentage per race on the welfare system, one of the lowest rates of school cert exam level passing rates and are exempt from a number of nz laws due to cultural sensitivity ( ie, nz fishing laws have set limits... the snapper limit is 10 per person per day... but a maori can go to a maori elder and get a piece of paper signed, so they can go over the limit legally.... but if I took 11 snapper in one day, I can lost my boat and my car under the fisheries act of nz )

equality my ass..... people are happy to claim discrimination when they can not get what they want, and claim special rights when it benefits them....

maybe this link will show you what is happening and its not a isolated case in nz either..... its a case of * I am maori, therefore the rules should not apply to me.... *
claimg race rights to avoid paying taxes (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3592564/Clami-Maori-descent-lets-lawyer-off-10m-tax-bill)

[bemyonlyone]

FalconAngel, you are truly deserving of all of our pity. Nothing will open your eyes and change your ignorant views. I can only feel sorry for someone like you.

[Long Duck Dong]

darkeyes

there is a bloody good reason why I support basic human rights for all..... cos its what we are all entitled to them....

the right to shelter, food, drink, medical care, a way to earn a wage ( or otherwise if you are not able to work ) and the right to marriage......

anything over and above that, can be based on the grounds of sexuality, race, culture, creed, belief, religion or gender.... and the moment we start demanding anything more or less than basic human rights for ourselves on those grounds.... WE create inbalance and inequality in society when WE do that...... so WE have to take responsibility for what WE create..... and stop blaming everybody else for doing the same thing......

there will never be equality and no discrimination as long as we continue to see ourselves as different to everybody else.... or have a opinion about anybody else......

sad fact is that we need to have our discrimination in order to feel like we are not just one of the crowd

[darkeyes]

darkeyes

there is a bloody good reason why I support basic human rights for all..... cos its what we are all entitled to them....

the right to shelter, food, drink, a way to earn a wage ( or otherwise if you are not able to work ) and the right to marriage......

anything over and above that, based on the grounds of sexuality, race, culture, creed, belief, religion or gender.... and the moment we start demanding anything more or less than basic human rights for ourselves on those grounds.... WE create inbalance and inequality in society when WE do that...... so WE have to take responsibility for what WE create..... and stop blaming everybody else for doing the same thing......

there will never be equality and no discrimination as long as we continue to see ourselves as different to everybody else.... or have a opinion about anybody else......

sad fact is that we need to have our discrimination in order to feel like we are not just one of the crowd

Dear God..what a strange view of the world you have.. human beings will never allow themselves simply to be just one of the crowd.. and yes we will discriminate..we will discriminate in the music we like, the telly we view, the cinema and theatre we go to see.. we will discriminate in our mode of dress, our make up, or entertainment.. we will discriminate on the things we do which make our life good.. what we do for a living..how we live our lives at home.. how we furnish that home..whether we have a pet.. where we go away on holiday.. we will even discriminate on who our friends are..we will discriminate in our politics and who we vote for, what we read.. what we believe..there are amillion and one ways we discriminate and will continue to discriminate in to make us the unique human being each of us is. But we must never..ever discriminate against anyone just on the basis that they are different.. for we are all different... we must never discriminate and act in a way which prevents them from the same opportunities as we have ourselves.. or in any way which denies them their right to be who and what they are...thats what equality and anti discrimination is about..

If you truly believe we as a species cannot discriminate in a such a way as to mark us out as individual and unique human beings.. not just one of the crowd.. without discriminating against people for being different culturally, ethnically, nationally, sexually or religiously.. then what you believe flies in the face of centuries of human social progress... we have a long lonng way to go.. but we continue that progress.. there will be reverses..we will make mistakes and go down blind alleys, but progress will continue.. and if you cant see that and truly don't believe that then your reading of social history, and your assessment of humanity are indeed not simply confused, but depressingly and despairingly so... and I thank f*** I believe in our species and do not have the dark and miserable pessimism which you seem to have..

Because things are not as you would wish Duckie..and are not as near perfect as we can make them..does not mean that they will always be so... I am often called an idealist and its true.. Im a dreamer.. and I believe in my dreams and that the day will come when humanity can indeed hold its head up without shame for its treatment of others of its kind.. we are a long way from that..but given time, I believe we will get there..

[Long Duck Dong]

lol.... I love you dark eyes, I really do.......

reminds you of the push for hate crime legislation in the us....and asks why its referred by the name of a gay man and a black man.... could it be that they are predominately targets of hate crimes..... and the answer would be why yes they are......
so I would then ask why is it that the law is needing a enhancement and addition by way of hate crimes, when not all groups are targets of hate crime related activities.....
the answer would be they don't..... everybody needs to be treated equally according to the law and justice...... however we both know that doesn't happen.... so lets remedy it by the creation of a new set of laws that can be used when some groups of people are targeted under a specific cricteria...... as for the rest that are targeted in the same type of crime.... they can be treated under the existing laws.....

now lets look at nz..... where they did that.....
existing laws..... assault and common assault applied to all people equally.....
nope not good enuf according to females.... so its changed...
female assaults male.... 6 months behind bars
male assaults female...... 2 years behind bars....

now the females are happy...... oh... wait...no.... the government wants to repeal a law allowing for the defence of provocation in a murder case....
no say the females, they want the defence of * battered woman syndrome * to stay..... IE I am innocent of killing my partner on the grounds of abuse....

long story short..... they want equality and no discrimination, while getting laws changed to be inequal.... and want the defence of provocation removed from any case that doesn't involve a female killing their partner.....

now feel free to tell me exactly how the fuck we are meant to be treated equally, not discriminated against and all have the same human rights.... when the groups that have been campaigning for equal rights... are now fighting to get rights that are inequal, unbalanced and discriminating on the grounds of gender and race... cos it suits them to have laws that do that now....

its like I have said many times.... we are the first to bitch when its us that are the losers, but we have no issues when the roles are reversed....

I am realistic.... we will never have equality.... cos somebody will always be the * victim * in their eyes and want change to make things * equal * for them.... not for everybody.... just them

[Long Duck Dong]

I am the type of person that can put a glass on a table... and put water into it.... and then watch as people will debate over the issue of is it half full or half empty..... to me.. its a glass of water .... others perception of it will define it as half full of half empty in their eyes.... personally, I would say they are both right.... but not able to accept that others are also right....

then I would watch people start to argue over why the glass should have been fulled or completely emptied..... and why has it not been fulled or totally emptied.....and I will start to scratch my head

then I will watch people start to argue about who has the right to fill it or empty it, and whose rights are being infringed upon by either action, and if the right methods are being used and if they are racially and cultural sensitive....

then I will watch people argue that its a aspect of climate change cos of the level of the water.... etc etc etc......

its a glass of water... with equal amounts of air and water in it.... but... what makes it half empty or half full... is a persons desire to be right.....
and thats why human kind fails so much.....they want to be right.... but in order for that, somebody has to be wrong....

btw... the glass is no longer there, I moved it to stop the arguments over something that is of no benefit to anybody :tong:

[darkeyes]

I am realistic.... we will never have equality.... cos somebody will always be the * victim * in their eyes and want change to make things * equal * for them.... not for everybody.... just them

Am an idealist Duckie.. course its edged wiv a liberal dash a realism.. ne 1 who livs on this planet is nuts if they don hav a realistic view on things.. an accept that achievin ne thin can b a long hard an ver slow process.. it took millenia 2 get rid a slavery.. least in the west.. still exists in sum parts a the world.. took centuries 2 get shotta feudalism.. an centuries 2 get peeps employment rites.. centuries 2 get Europe 2 stop blowin lumps outa each otha (an parts still do..).. took centuries 2 get imperialism recognised as wot it is..rape, pillage an oppression.. centuries 2 get ordinary peeps ne reel protection in law from those who run countries.. nun is perfect..but all r a helluva a lot betta than wos the case not so long ago.. similarly wiv racism, sexism an predjudice based on sexuality.. in the west we r lite years ahead a wer we wer jus haff a century ago.. its called progress.. an wiv will..ther is a way.. an we will get ther.. don b such a bloody pessimist.. it jus needs peeps like u 2 believe in it.. hav always believed in it.. is how me wos raised..not every1 has believed in it.. but enuff hav been convinced for us 2 make those huge changes in the social condition a humankind.. an that will continue Duckie.. sumtimes ther will b 2 steps forward an the odd 1 bak.. but it will keep on goin... me believes that an all.. hav an mazin amount a faith in our species for all its faults an contrary 2 many of its acts.. cos history has proven me rite 2 hav that faith.. cos we r wer we r.. not wer we wer even a century ago in our social condition..

[Lady_Passion]

I am the type of person that can put a glass on a table... and put water into it.... and then watch as people will debate over the issue of is it half full or half empty..... to me.. its a glass of water .... others perception of it will define it as half full of half empty in their eyes.... personally, I would say they are both right.... but not able to accept that others are also right....

then I would watch people start to argue over why the glass should have been fulled or completely emptied..... and why has it not been fulled or totally emptied.....and I will start to scratch my head

then I will watch people start to argue about who has the right to fill it or empty it, and whose rights are being infringed upon by either action, and if the right methods are being used and if they are racially and cultural sensitive....

then I will watch people argue that its a aspect of climate change cos of the level of the water.... etc etc etc......

its a glass of water... with equal amounts of air and water in it.... but... what makes it half empty or half full... is a persons desire to be right.....
and thats why human kind fails so much.....they want to be right.... but in order for that, somebody has to be wrong....

btw... the glass is no longer there, I moved it to stop the arguments over something that is of no benefit to anybody :tong:

*lol* I love your analogy!

So, SO true.

I feel the same way when people talk about rights we don't have. I point out we have none... and discussion continues without pause or acknowledgment of a core reality we all share. In the U.S., anyway.

Nearly everything comes down to wrong or right. Primal instinct? Being wrong used to get a person killed right quick. Being right meant you got to live another day. I get why the importance of being right, but too often right is far less important than tolerance and acceptance. If there were only two people in the world, they would find something to argue about :.) I enjoy debates, but more so if they are based in reality.

[darkeyes]

*lol* I love your analogy!

So, SO true.

I feel the same way when people talk about rights we don't have. I point out we have none... and discussion continues without pause or acknowledgment of a core reality we all share. In the U.S., anyway.

Nearly everything comes down to wrong or right. Primal instinct? Being wrong used to get a person killed right quick. Being right meant you got to live another day. I get why the importance of being right, but too often right is far less important than tolerance and acceptance. If there were only two people in the world, they would find something to argue about :.) I enjoy debates, but more so if they are based in reality.

Interesting lil post.. makes a change from most from the US in that it doesnt seem 2 claim that nowhere is quite as free as the US.. or maybe it tells us that the US has no rights..the rest have less.. whatever that means..

I agree that sometimes we have to sacrifice what is right for the greater good.. it would be much more pleasant if that were not so but it is.. tolerance and acceptance, allied to at least an effort to understand should at least in theory eliminate that little conundrum.. taken together they are the cornerstone of the world living together in peace and some tranquility.. and should ensure that the rights we do not seem to have, we get.. the right to be understood and accepted for what we are.. not simply tolerated in isolation for it..

I agree that where there are any two people they will argue.. but that shouldn't prove fatal.. argument and debate about the world is what sparks progress.. it helps us understand each other and accept that we are not the same. Toleration is important but is not and can never be an end in itself.. for without acceptance, and without understanding we return to the old ways of humankind.. strife, conflict, death and destruction, suspicion and paranoia, hatred and xenophobia, fear, a return to intolerance.. everything that we should hate.. and how patronising simply to be tolerated.. spare me that.. yes I wish it, but without the other building blocks then it is but a house built of jelly.. and I would rather live without tolerance in that case thank you..

I live in reality.. and I believe we can achieve great things as a species.. I know only too well of our weaknesses.. but knowing our weakness should be our strength.. belief in ourselves enables us to do great things.. they may be large or small but they are never without real substance.. the day humanity truly believes in itself it will make such strides in social progress, rights and equality that will take the breath away.. we already have in a world of strife and conflict and hate, where most of humankind seem to believe only in its own worst fallabilities without any real belief in its fearsome genius and strengths... I believe in us... thats why I have ideals.. and I know enough of our species history to have good reason to believe in those ideals...

[FalconAngel]

FalconAngel, you are truly deserving of all of our pity. Nothing will open your eyes and change your ignorant views. I can only feel sorry for someone like you.

I am not the one who is ignorant. I just know what human nature is, very clearly better than you.

I have seen it almost everywhere that I have traveled, lived, worked and spent any significant amount of time.

Racial profiling, the failings of the welfare state, the failings of right wing/left wing policies that are designed to hold and strengthen political party power, the history of the human race. All of those things show what we as a species are capable of.

You choose to ignore it, apparently thinking that there is some spark of kindness in everyone when that is not true.

Being a predatory species, we have it, but not everyone has it.

On racial profiling, I see that it works every day on the highway. The car with the black man or woman that is driving at or below the minimum speed will invariably have a Haitian flag sticker on the bumper or have one hanging from their rear view mirror.

Come to south Florida and see it for yourself. In city traffic, the ones that always slow way down for railroad tracks are American Blacks. Blacks, with very few exceptions have different behaviors than whites, who also have different behaviors than Latinos, who have different behaviors than people from the Middle East. And criminals all have similar types of behaviors with variations based on race.

Go ahead and ask a cop about what he expects to find should he pull over a nice condition Caddy being driven by a 20 - 25 year old black or Hispanic male driving at the speed limit. on the highway. What he will tell you is that the driver is transporting drugs or drug money.

Welcome to the real world.

It would be nice if your fluffy bunny vision of the world were true, but human nature will not allow it. AT least not yet.

[FalconAngel]

1) On the basis of population levels, is it time to review the way support is allocated to families; perhaps on a sliding scale?

'full' support for the 1st child
'half' support for the 2nd child
zero support for the 3rd and subsequent children

2) Corporate power - with Voltie on this one; the old classifications are fading away.

It's a nice idea. Like I said before, it will never happen as long as we continue to allow policies based on political correctness and the welfare state ideology.

Title IV D and E will also have to be completely overhauled as well, or all else will be for naught.

[Jackal]

Hmm. You and your wife don't like me very much, I think. *laughs*

I never said I was blameless, but I find most Republicans absolutely disgusting, in my experience, because of their actions. Let me say it again: the Republican Club at my school attempted to remove the group for students of color. I'm sure they've gone after the lgbt club as well. They have shown themselves to be racist and homophobic, and many Republicans are. My experience. A lot of Republicans think the poor deserve to be poor, public assistance should be done away with, women shouldn't be able to take the morning after pill OR get an abortion, single mothers are whores who don't deserve any rights, gay people shouldn't be able to marry, and so on. I want to keep myself as far away from people like that as possible. Being a biracial, bisexual woman with a number of issues directly affected by their bigotry, it makes sense.

A lot of conservatives' beliefs are particularly cruel to women, lgbt people, poor people, and people of color. I belong to every single one of those groups...so that's all I have to say.

I think that conservative and Republican are being used interchangeably and they aren't the same thing. A lot of Republicans are bastards, but then so are Democrats. Lets not pretend that your political party dictates how much you care about people and their issues. That said, the vocal ultra-conservative portion of the Republican party that Bemy is talking about are appalling. I don't think it's fair to paint them all with the same brush, just like we hate it when someone uses their past history with someone who is black to talk about the ethnic group as a whole. The ones in our school are super creepy but I don't think they are representative of Republicans as a whole.

[FalconAngel]

I think that conservative and Republican are being used interchangeably and they aren't the same thing. A lot of Republicans are bastards, but then so are Democrats. Lets not pretend that your political party dictates how much you care about people and their issues. That said, the vocal ultra-conservative portion of the Republican party that Bemy is talking about are appalling. I don't think it's fair to paint them all with the same brush, just like we hate it when someone uses their past history with someone who is black to talk about the ethnic group as a whole. The ones in our school are super creepy but I don't think they are representative of Republicans as a whole.

Now that is what I am talking about.

The ultra right wing take over of the party is why I left the party. My dad, A life long, party banner waving Republican is considering leaving as well because he is tired of the right wing BS....And he is a very staunch, Catholic Conservative.

When a religious conservative is looking at bailing the party, then there is a serious problem.

But the problem is not the parties (well, it is, but that is another issue), but the religious conservativism that has imbeded itself in our political system.

The right wingers in both parties have forgotten the one universal truth of politics; "one cannot serve two masters".

Being a secular nation, no person of any religion has the right to force their religious doctrine on others. And a politician that serves their god first cannot serve the interests of all of the people, as his/her position dictates that they must.

When that conflict of interest arises, the rights of the people that they serve is put aside in favor of the doctrine of their church/synagogue/temple/whatever.

When someone is hired to serve the people, they must serve the people first and their religion second. If they do not do that, then they are not serving the people and are doing a disservice to those they are hired to serve.

I does not get more plainly put than that.

[Lady_Passion]

Interesting lil post.. makes a change from most from the US in that it doesnt seem 2 claim that nowhere is quite as free as the US.. or maybe it tells us that the US has no rights..the rest have less.. whatever that means..

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164130&postcount=16

It's brief, so I'll repost:
Originally Posted by Lady_Passion: We lost civil rights way back with Swift v. Tyson and Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins. Property cannot sue property, i.e., Americans became citizens aka straw citizens aka chattel. That's the basis upon which lawmakers have since proceeded.



I agree that sometimes we have to sacrifice what is right for the greater good.. it would be much more pleasant if that were not so but it is.. tolerance and acceptance, allied to at least an effort to understand should at least in theory eliminate that little conundrum.. taken together they are the cornerstone of the world living together in peace and some tranquility.. and should ensure that the rights we do not seem to have, we get.. the right to be understood and accepted for what we are.. not simply tolerated in isolation for it..

I agree that where there are any two people they will argue.. but that shouldn't prove fatal.. argument and debate about the world is what sparks progress.. it helps us understand each other and accept that we are not the same. Toleration is important but is not and can never be an end in itself.. for without acceptance, and without understanding we return to the old ways of humankind.. strife, conflict, death and destruction, suspicion and paranoia, hatred and xenophobia, fear, a return to intolerance.. everything that we should hate.. and how patronising simply to be tolerated.. spare me that.. yes I wish it, but without the other building blocks then it is but a house built of jelly.. and I would rather live without tolerance in that case thank you..

I live in reality.. and I believe we can achieve great things as a species.. I know only too well of our weaknesses.. but knowing our weakness should be our strength.. belief in ourselves enables us to do great things.. they may be large or small but they are never without real substance.. the day humanity truly believes in itself it will make such strides in social progress, rights and equality that will take the breath away.. we already have in a world of strife and conflict and hate, where most of humankind seem to believe only in its own worst fallabilities without any real belief in its fearsome genius and strengths... I believe in us... thats why I have ideals.. and I know enough of our species history to have good reason to believe in those ideals...

Serving 'the people' is directly at odds with serving the state in which 'the people' live in. There will always be conflicts over resources, land, $ and power to control or protect those things. Otherwise, we don't survive as a large group. It's a necessary evolution, though I believe we could do better than the Romans if we did not succumb to repeating history.

[bemyonlyone]

I am not the one who is ignorant. I just know what human nature is, very clearly better than you.

I have seen it almost everywhere that I have traveled, lived, worked and spent any significant amount of time.

Racial profiling, the failings of the welfare state, the failings of right wing/left wing policies that are designed to hold and strengthen political party power, the history of the human race. All of those things show what we as a species are capable of.

You choose to ignore it, apparently thinking that there is some spark of kindness in everyone when that is not true.

Being a predatory species, we have it, but not everyone has it.

On racial profiling, I see that it works every day on the highway. The car with the black man or woman that is driving at or below the minimum speed will invariably have a Haitian flag sticker on the bumper or have one hanging from their rear view mirror.

Come to south Florida and see it for yourself. In city traffic, the ones that always slow way down for railroad tracks are American Blacks. Blacks, with very few exceptions have different behaviors than whites, who also have different behaviors than Latinos, who have different behaviors than people from the Middle East. And criminals all have similar types of behaviors with variations based on race.

Go ahead and ask a cop about what he expects to find should he pull over a nice condition Caddy being driven by a 20 - 25 year old black or Hispanic male driving at the speed limit. on the highway. What he will tell you is that the driver is transporting drugs or drug money.

Welcome to the real world.

It would be nice if your fluffy bunny vision of the world were true, but human nature will not allow it. AT least not yet.


*shakes head*

I think you're forgetting that I am half black and every word you type insults me again and again. And the sad thing is, you don't give anything that slightly resembles a damn. That really shows the kind of person you are.

[FalconAngel]

*shakes head*

I think you're forgetting that I am half black and every word you type insults me again and again. And the sad thing is, you don't give anything that slightly resembles a damn. That really shows the kind of person you are.

Oh...I get it now. PC at it's most ignorant. Because a person is black/half black, then the demonstrated facts cannot be mentioned because, even though they are not the type person being discussed, that type cannot be mentioned because some blacks might get offended.

Consider these two things.

1. To me, I could care less what your racial makeup is.

2. I did not know what your racial makeup is, so everything that I said was not a focus of racism, but to point out facts. Nothing more and nothing less.

Here's your clue. If the bad things that some members of the black community do means that pointing it out offends you, then do something to fix the problem and stop trying to "kill the messenger". When you do what you have done on this issue, you are letting your race decide your words and actions, not using facts.

When whites commit crimes, I don't get outraged at someone who points it out that the criminal is white. So why does it bother you when the criminal is black? Sounds like a bit of ethnocentrism, Al Sharpton (aka black racist) style.

Personally, I could care less if you are black, white, Latino, Asian, 1st Nations, Polish, Jewish, German or anything else. Doesn't matter to me and, quite factually, neither do the police really care what race a person is. They will just as happily arrest a white as a black or latino.

Racial profiling is applied to all ethnicities equally. The proof is everywhere and only those that do not know what racial profiling really is, are the ones that think that it is focused on ethnicity only. Racial profiling is not so (if you will excuse the pun) black and white as that.

The fact that you do not know that is because, instead of looking up the information on it to know for sure, you would rather hear the Black racist version.

In order to inform you, properly, as to what racial profiling actually is, put in the simplest terms, so that you can properly understand it:

People of all races, have certain behaviors when they are doing something wrong, lying, trying to hide something, etc. In law enforcement, that is normally called "furtive behavior". Feel free to look it up.

Each racial group does it a bit differently, which most people do not recognize because it is usually a subtle difference that only someone paying attention would notice. Whites who are hiding things, do so slightly differently than blacks, differently than Asians, differently than Latinos.

Also, they look for behaviors that are out of character with each group.

Since traffic law is the most common interaction between Law enforcement and the population at large, I will use examples from that.

American Blacks tend to drive a bit more cautiously than Foreign born blacks or Whites; Latinos drive differently than other ethnic groups, Young men tend to drive differently than women, men of other ethnic groups as well.
Then there is age. People of different age groups also tend to behave differently than other age groups.

Also, different "class" groups behave differently. You won't see a law-abiding black man driving a Ferrari in "the hood", unless he has family there. He will have a nice house in a nice neighborhood where that type of vehicle would be more common.

And, statistically speaking, Blacks tend to prefer different vehicles than Whites or Latinos do.

Like I said before. You don't have to believe me; just work on you observation skills, dump your ethnocentricities and just observe, looking for details, of different racial groups, different age groups and see for yourself. Test the theory. If you are paying attention, you will see that I am right.

It doesn't upset me that racial profiling works, because it does, it is applied to all races, because each race has some kind of behavioral differences when applied to similar situations.

So racial profiling, unlike the fluffy bunny, kiss ass, TV news version of it, actually covers race, gender, age group and demonstrated economic background behaviors. It is about noticing the details, based on all of those factors, and it is not just used as a tool for law enforcement, but for other, more subtle industries as well.

One more proof that racial profiling works. Take a look at what communities that advertisers focus different ad campaigns on.

Mc Donald's and Burger king are the most obvious and blatant ones, focusing on the Black community.

Take notice of the commercials and magazine ads and listen to what and how they say things and you can see which communities they are focused on.

Allstate uses, as their spokesman, a Black man with a more "racially generic" type of voice because they want to get to all racial and economic groups.

McDonald's and Burger king are, as I said, more focused on the urban Black community. Their commercials use a strong black and Latino presence, weak white presence, and ethnic black slang.
Not all that attractive to middle class whites that they focused on when I was much younger, but that is not the community that they are targeting.

Racial profiling works and has worked long before the police started using it.

So drop the ethnic ego and just face facts, that I am right and you are just letting your ethnic ego over ride your perception of the facts. And I am not busting your chops on it, just pointing out the details that you have either missed or subconsciously chose to ignore.

[bemyonlyone]

Why are your answers so long? I disagree with you and you need to accept that. Nothing, no amount of talking, which is in my mind blah blah blah, is going to convince me that your views are correct.

[darkeyes]

[B][url]


Serving 'the people' is directly at odds with serving the state in which 'the people' live in. There will always be conflicts over resources, land, $ and power to control or protect those things. Otherwise, we don't survive as a large group. It's a necessary evolution, though I believe we could do better than the Romans if we did not succumb to repeating history.

I think our idea of what constitutes the state is somewhat different.. the state is..or at least should be the people and their servant.. that is mostly lip gloss these days I do accept but it need not be.. it is certainly less lip gloss for instance than in the days of those self same Romans.. and less than when we lived under absolute monarchies and their "divine right", less so even than in the mid 19th century when British democracy was an absolute sham with pocket and rotten boroughs, less true than when women attained the vote or when homosexuality was made legal.. and so it shall I trust continue to become less so throughout my lifetime and after..

..and with time there may be arguments about the resources of our world, but some have sufficient faith that while their may be conflicting views, common sense will prevail and humanity will not resort to conflict.. this may well never happen in my lifetime.. but my lifetime is not the only lifetime and if we as a species do manage to survive, then time and maturity will ensure that it does no matter how long it takes...

..I may have no faith in the existence of a supreme being, but I do have tremendous faith in my own kind...

[jamiehue]

once guesseallyed all the republicans in the house just by lookin at their photos ( missed a couple knew a few of them also. This was accomplished because they all look like assholes. really.

[FalconAngel]

Why are your answers so long?

My answers are long because I don't skip the facts. I also don't write for the short attention span theater types.

My answers tend to lean more towards cerebral than tv ad.


I disagree with you and you need to accept that. Nothing, no amount of talking, which is in my mind blah blah blah, is going to convince me that your views are correct.

Fine for you to disagree. I have said that you don't have to.

I have, however, challenged you to make the minor effort to test the theory, but perhaps I am asking too much of you. Since testing the theory and doing the homework requires you to have a mind open to the possibilities that what you think you know, you don't know at all.

I have tested the theory and the conclusions that you disagree with have been demonstrated, because I used to think like you, that Racial profiling was limited to black and white. I was wrong then, and experience and observation proved that I am right now.

Disagreeing with me is fine. After all, the left and the right need folks that will believe the first incomplete piece of out of touch philosophy that comes along.

It is the best way for them to maintain control, by allowing people to believe that what is wrong is right.

Sorry if that was too long for you to make the effort to actually read all the way through, but I don't "do" short attention span writing.

[Lady_Passion]

'Animal Farm' all over again.

[bemyonlyone]

Get over yourself. Disagreeing with you doesn't make me incomplete or out of touch.

Maybe I think you're wrong. And maybe lots of other people do too. Because there is nothing good about racial profiling--NOTHING. It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't work, and it is racist and harmful.

I would ask you how you feel when someone treats you like crap as an lgbt person, but let's face it...you're in a hetero relationship that shields you from a lot of the shit lgbt people get thrown their way.

I might be able to hide being bi, but the color of my skin gives me away as being not white, and all the shit that comes along with it. Sorry if that makes me think you're wrong. You may have all this so called experience with blah blah blah, but I have experienced racism and it has left permanent marks. I will never accept anyone who thinks it's okay.

[FalconAngel]

I think our idea of what constitutes the state is somewhat different.. the state is..or at least should be the people and their servant.. that is mostly lip gloss these days I do accept but it need not be.. it is certainly less lip gloss for instance than in the days of those self same Romans.. and less than when we lived under absolute monarchies and their "divine right", less so even than in the mid 19th century when British democracy was an absolute sham with pocket and rotten boroughs, less true than when women attained the vote or when homosexuality was made legal.. and so it shall I trust continue to become less so throughout my lifetime and after..

Actually, your perception of what constitutes "The State" is a fairly accurate description of what it is supposed to be, at least here in the US. As it was established under our Constitution, that is mostly what it was meant to be.

How many times have you seen me post that "they work for us, not the other way around"?
However, over the years, we the people have stopped doing our job of insuring that they continue to work for we the people, and that we hire the best people for the job.
Instead, we have hired our employees using the "popularity contest" method. Hell, even George Washington was hired under that method. He did lose 6 out of 9 major battles, after all.



..and with time there may be arguments about the resources of our world, but some have sufficient faith that while their may be conflicting views, common sense will prevail and humanity will not resort to conflict..

Wish it would hurry up and happen. It seems to me that we are beyond overdue for some "common" sense in the world, particularly our leaders.


this may well never happen in my lifetime.. but my lifetime is not the only lifetime and if we as a species do manage to survive, then time and maturity will ensure that it does no matter how long it takes...

It is just like real magic. See the change and know in your heart that you can make positive change and it will happen, because you want it to happen. That want will manifest itself in your actions. If enough people do that, then the change can come faster.



..I may have no faith in the existence of a supreme being, but I do have tremendous faith in my own kind...

It doesn't matter if you believe in a supreme being or many supreme beings or the possibility of becoming a supreme human (not in the master race kind of way), or even no supreme being/beings of any kind.

The power to change resides in anyone with the ability to believe that they are good enough to make their own change in themselves. Sadly, until enough of us are capable and willing to do so, there will be no change.

But keep hoping a trying, anyway. Be the change to make the change.

[FalconAngel]

'Animal Farm' all over again.

I haven't heard mention of that book in years. You're right, though. Not a lot of folks see the patterns because they just don't see patterns of human behavior.

Clearly, you see the patterns, too.

[Lady_Passion]

^ I've seen that particular pattern forever, it seems. And regardless of how repetitive history is, we don't seem likely to buck bad habits.


I think our idea of what constitutes the state is somewhat different.. the state is..or at least should be the people and their servant.. that is mostly lip gloss these days I do accept but it need not be.. it is certainly less lip gloss for instance than in the days of those self same Romans.. and less than when we lived under absolute monarchies and their "divine right", less so even than in the mid 19th century when British democracy was an absolute sham with pocket and rotten boroughs, less true than when women attained the vote or when homosexuality was made legal.. and so it shall I trust continue to become less so throughout my lifetime and after..
Let there be no doubt I fully comprehend how it's supposed to be. But that's a world of difference from what is, which is what we are faced with.

'When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...' The U.S. has tons of hammers, and everything outside the U.S. looks like a nail :.)


..and with time there may be arguments about the resources of our world, but some have sufficient faith that while their may be conflicting views, common sense will prevail and humanity will not resort to conflict.. this may well never happen in my lifetime.. but my lifetime is not the only lifetime and if we as a species do manage to survive, then time and maturity will ensure that it does no matter how long it takes...

..I may have no faith in the existence of a supreme being, but I do have tremendous faith in my own kind...
I don't believe in a particular god or supreme being, but I'd do that before having faith in mankind any day *lol* Humans are far, far too self-destructive.

[darkeyes]

I don't believe in a particular god or supreme being, but I'd do that before having faith in mankind any day *lol* Humans are far, far too self-destructive.

Once humans lived only by base instinct.. they evolved.. now while they certainly retain so much of the destructiveness of their ancestors, they are capable of immense compassion, wonderful innovation and awesome genius. It is on those facets of human existence I base my beliefs.. not on its capacity to destroy..

[FalconAngel]

Get over yourself. Disagreeing with you doesn't make me incomplete or out of touch.

No. I didn't say that it did, so stop putting your words in my mouth. You can disagree with me and not be out of touch, but in this case, you just happen to be out of touch while disagreeing with me.

Whether you want to admit it or not, you are what is called a "soft racist" You have friends of different ethnicities, I am sure, but because of your racial make-up, certain groups can, in a very real sense, "do no wrong" as far as you see it.

That belief is a logical fallacy.

For you, racial profiling is wrong because it points out truths that you are too young, racist and impetuous to admit.

I explained racial profiling in enough detail to make it clear to anyone, how it actually works vs the way it is descibed in the "if it bleeds it leads" media.

You have present no more "proof" of your argument than saying that it is wrong.
And if it were actually applied the way that you claim, then it would be wrong. But it isn't applied that way at all, contrary to the way your "left wing media" drenched mind sees it.


Maybe I think you're wrong. And maybe lots of other people do too. Because there is nothing good about racial profiling--NOTHING. It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't work, and it is racist and harmful.

What matters to me are the facts.

If you can show me that racial profiling is wrong, then please do so. But in order to do that, you have to have the discipline, focus and make the effort to study the subject in it's entirety in order to argue either for or against it.

You have already implied, in your last response that you do not have any of that. Don't argue a subject that you only know through word of mouth from left wingers that also only know from word of mouth.

All that you have done so far is argue that it is wrong. So give me some facts to prove it. Unlike you, I do not believe that emotional and illogical pleas are facts. Unlike you, I know the difference.
Unlike you, I have 23 years more experience in detecting bullshit, than you do. And I have the added experience of seeing racism in more places and ways than you, having experienced it in ways that you will be fortunate enough to never have to experience.

So don't you dare call me a racist. The fact that you are so adamant about saying that it is against blacks shows both your ignorance of the subject, as it really is applied, and your own racism.



I would ask you how you feel when someone treats you like crap as an lgbt person, but let's face it...you're in a hetero relationship that shields you from a lot of the shit lgbt people get thrown their way.

I handle it like an adult, not a spoiled, undereducated child.

So what if I am currently in a hetero relationship? At 48 years old (49 in 2 of months) this is not my first rodeo. Based on what I have read from your posts, in other threads, having had no relationships yet, you haven't even had your first rodeo.

So, in my case, been there, done that, learned to adapt; just like many LGBT people have done before me and will do after I am gone.

And I am a US Army vet, so like many LGBT people that served long before DADT, we have had to use a greater deal more discretion and caution than you ever will have to deal with.

Your generation is infinitely more accepting of other sexualities than mine ever was.

You were fortunate enough to grow up in a time when the toughest fights for racial rights and LGBT rights were initially fought for, when there were NO RIGHTS for us or for blacks and there were riots in the streets in both battles.

So don't piss and moan to my generation about how "tough" it is. You have no idea at all.


I might be able to hide being bi, but the color of my skin gives me away as being not white, and all the shit that comes along with it.

And that means what, that because you are identified as Black, that means that things are tougher on you?

Because you are black and a woman, you have a ton of options that white men do not have: Special gender and race-based grant programs for schooling and special grants (money that you don't pay back) to open your own business, if you so choose to. There are a lot more programs out there to help blacks than there are that give the same opportunities to whites.

None of those opportunities are as readily available, or available at all to whites. And that is pretty damned racist, no matter how it gets flipped around.

As a black woman, you have options that I and my children do not, just because we are white.



Sorry if that makes me think you're wrong. You may have all this so called experience with blah blah blah, but I have experienced racism and it has left permanent marks. I will never accept anyone who thinks it's okay.


And yet, you use that same racism as a shield, turning it back on every surface appearance of racism, even when it factually is not.

You are a racist. Those scars that you say you have have made you a racist because you cannot or will not put them behind you.

You sound like all of those black racists that use race as a way to keep racism alive, so that they can perpetuate their careers as "defenders of the black community". Creating racism that isn't there is what keeps racism alive. So stop being oversensitive and creating issues that don't exist or making major issues out of minor ones.

You have deluded yourself and are now crying about how bad you have it. How about you ask your parents or grandparents if you have it as bad as you do. See what they say about how "easy it was back in the day compared to now.

You use that "blah blah blah" just enough to show your personal ignorance of the issues. It makes you sound both arrogant and like a child that thinks she knows better than her elders.

Let me tell you what is racist.
The belief that you need special protections and programs geared toward your own ethnic group, rather than equal protections and programs.

Isolating your own ethnic communities, to the point of creating your own ethnic language (ever heard of "ebonics"? Look it up), their own schools and refusing to help drive out the negative elements, since they are your own.

Creating issues of racism based on nothing more than the racial differences of the person is racist.

Let me tell you of a recent issue in which I was, supposedly, the racist.

I was out doing laundry and a woman was there with her 4 kids, various ages, and the kids were making a huge racket. The person working there asked them to stop; they refused. So being as it was me, as well as others, being disturbed, I asked the kids to try to be quieter because they were bothering others. I was diplomatic in the way I said it, because, after all, they were kids.
The oldest turns to me and says "Shut up, cracker". Yes, the kids were half black; their mom was black. She comes over to me and starts adding her own racial epithets to the situation and it got so bad, that the police had to be called.
Not because of me, but because they escalated the situation. All that I did was ask the kids, politely, at that, to not disturb everyone.

But according to the eldest and the mother, THAT makes me a racist? That sounds like a more extreme version of what you have been implying than actual racism.

Factually, it is a variation on the same kind of racism that you have been exhibiting.

Do I hate blacks because of that? no. To be honest, it was only the second time in my life that anyone, here in the US at least, had ever used a racial epithet to me based on my race.

Racism is ugly, even the soft racism that you think that you are not using, but are using.

Face facts. Not perception, not propaganda and not opinion. Facts.

As human beings, we are basically the same, but as ethnic peoples we are different in subtle ways. People that do not understand that automatically think that things such as racial profiling is aimed at them. Fact is that it is aimed at everyone, not just certain ethnic groups.

I am sure that the ACLU would have filed against against racial profiling in SCOTUS, but they did not. The reason is because it does not target any specific ethnic group.

Don't deny the facts just because they are inconvenient to your beliefs, investigate the facts and face them.

Compare the following facts;

Racial profiling, put in simple terms, is the use of demographics to aid police work. It is applied equally to all ethnic groups.

Racial profiling, put in simple terms is the use of demographics to aid advertisers in targeting a specific market. It is applied equally when deciding on the desired ethnicity of targeted customer bases.

Which one sounds more insidious to you?

Being that one of your parents is not black, then not having the same trust of the one parent that you have for the other parent must make your life difficult as well as filling you with a small sense of self-loathing.

Soft racism does that.

That is something that only you can do anything about. And if you hate racism as much as you say that you do, then you have to start with a thorough self examination of your personal racism.

My personal tag line is my philosophy of things. following that philosophy is what has changed my mind about many subjects and kept me from becoming either a right wing nut or a left wing nut.
It might help you, if you chose to grow and learn.

[FalconAngel]

Now, getting back to the original topic of this thread, here is a little something for everyone to go over.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/sarah-palin-americas-lips_b_124213.html

Sarah Palin: America's Lipstick Fascist

Sarah Palin summed up the Republican Party's turn to Fascism perfectly when she mocked Senator Obama as someone who would want to read enemies we capture "their rights".

"Terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America ... he's [Obama] worried that someone won't read them their rights."

Long before Sarah Palin's son was preparing to deploy to Iraq, my son John joined the Marine Corps, did two deployments in Afghanistan, one mission in Iraq, and fought for and defended his country and family. I was proud of his service, in spite of the fact that I believed that my son had a fool for his commander-in-chief. In my mind, John's motive (regardless of who the President was) was to defend an American way of life based on a set of principles and our Constitution that place the value of the rule of law and human rights above mere expediency.

John and I wrote a book, Keeping Faith: A Father-Son Story About Love and the United States Marine Corps, that, after my appearance on Oprah, became a bestseller and has since become a standard book many Marine Corps families read as a guide to Marine Corps boot camp, and the lives of Marine families.

I won't take a back seat to flag-waving Republicans and their "patriotism." Besides the fact that my son stood up and volunteered, Sarah Palin would not have been nominated if it were not for the abortion issue and John McCain's need to shore up the commitment of the Evangelical pro-life right wing. As John McCain and the leaders of Religious Right know (including figures such as Dr. Dobson and Pat Robertson, Rev. Hagee and their ilk) there would have been no Evangelical pro-life movement as we know it without my and my father's connecting the Republican Party to the Evangelicals.We led that movement into the pro-life camp in the 1970s and early 80s with a series of influential books and film series.

So, I know something about the Republican Party having been a lifelong Republican until recently when, disgusted with the dirty tricks perpetrated by Rove and others, I quit and registered as an independent voter. (I even worked for McCain in 2000 by going on many religious radio shows to plead his case against Bush.)

But there is a better reason for not being a Republican today: the Republican Party stands on the brink of becoming the Fascist American party. Republicans seem ready and willing to trample everything my son stood up for when he put on the uniform of United States.

The Fascist side of the Republican Party is summed up in her historic line: "He's worried that someone won't read them their rights." This snide off-the-cuff remark embodies everything that has gone wrong with America since George W. Bush became president.

In this one little aside is the American equivalent of another "little" phrase: "the final solution." Palin's is an attitude that places ideology and rabid nationalism above the law. For her, war trumps ethics. This attitude has turned America into a country that tortures prisoners, has put us on the wrong side of our Constitution, has taken the country that liberated Auschwitz and made it a place that now uses torture, intimidation and the desecration of human freedom as a means of war.

Palin and the Republican Fascists believe that we are so right, so great and so powerful that we no longer need to obey our own laws or even -- in the case of global warming -- the laws of nature. We can start wars for no reason and then claim "victory". We can torture in the name of Jesus.

Sarah Palin is a member of a theologically extreme church, one that views history as in its "final dispensation" wherein Jesus is about to return and wherein America can help this event along by spurring the apocalypse by goading Israel into a war eternal with its Arab neighbors.

So, our new Republican Fascism is actually Fascism with a twist of nutty Evangelical theology, much like German Fascism evolved with a nutty twist of bizarre superstition and stargazing on the part of Hitler and many leading Nazis who were as enamored by the occult as by politics.

We have seen the next Mussolini and she's wearing a skirt. Don't let Palin's "hockey mom" image fool you. Sarah Palin is the face of a post-democracy America, post-constitutional and post-freedom America. She is the home town "little Austrian" vice presidential candidate to a cancer-riddled old man who, chances are high, won't see the end of his first term in office if he becomes president due to illness and old age. The woman who said that we don't need to read people their rights may well be the next president.

The Fascist tactic that destroyed the democracies of old Europe was simple: mock and belittle your opponents, nibble at the edges of the rule of law, promote violence, and grasp at a weird religion of "destiny" (their version of American exceptionalism) with an "us" against "them" mentality, blame others, including the intellectual classes and the media, pit the working people against the perceived elite (Jews in Europe and today's university-educated Democratic Party leaders in America), take power based on grievance and fear and then set aside the constitution altogether based on claimed threats by outsiders.

This is the path that America is on with Palin and McCain. The election of 2008 is a choice between United States Constitution and Lipstick Fascism.

Frank Schaeffer is the author of CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back.

Read more analysis from HuffPost bloggers on Sarah Palin

Follow Frank Schaeffer on Twitter: www.twitter.com/frank_schaeffer

[12voltman59]

Thankfully---I think Sarah is just where she wants to be now---it was recently reported that since dumping her pain in the ass day gig as Alaska governor and becoming a darling of the far right on the speaking and appearance circuit--with all she has done--she stands to make something like $20 million this year--pretty good boost from the measely hundred grand or so she made as a guvnor and whatever her hubby made from whatever it was he really did!!

Let's hope she just now sticks to being a shill for the sorts of things she says she believes in---as sad as it is that someone can get so rich by actually helping to bring the system down by so polarizing the atmosphere----better she is doing that than being the VPOTUS or WORSE---being THE POTUS!!!!

I do have to say--L. Ron Hubbard was right in that a sure fire way to get rich in America was to start yourself a religion-and you can add to that--become a talking head shouting out about the evils of liberalism and such--maybe I should create myself a stage name--and create a hybrid religion/right wing organization and take those people's money---they sure as hell hate to give it up to the government in the form of paying taxes---but sure give it up freely to every crackpot with some whacked out ideas!!

It is gonna be a good year moneywise for Glenn Beck too--he is gonna make something like $35 million between all the stuff he does!!

For my fellow lefties--go take yourself some antacid now!!:bigrin::bigrin:

[darkeyes]

For my fellow lefties--go take yourself some antacid now!!:bigrin::bigrin:

Dunno wy ya say that Voltie.. is no moren we expect.. we havta hav a gud seethe bout summat..an a gud seethe is betta than ne antacid!!:tong:

[jamiehue]

Now, getting back to the original topic of this thread, here is a little something for everyone to go over.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/sarah-palin-americas-lips_b_124213.html

Sarah Palin: America's Lipstick Fascist

Sarah Palin summed up the Republican Party's turn to Fascism perfectly when she mocked Senator Obama as someone who would want to read enemies we capture "their rights".

"Terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America ... he's [Obama] worried that someone won't read them their rights."

Long before Sarah Palin's son was preparing to deploy to Iraq, my son John joined the Marine Corps, did two deployments in Afghanistan, one mission in Iraq, and fought for and defended his country and family. I was proud of his service, in spite of the fact that I believed that my son had a fool for his commander-in-chief. In my mind, John's motive (regardless of who the President was) was to defend an American way of life based on a set of principles and our Constitution that place the value of the rule of law and human rights above mere expediency.

John and I wrote a book, Keeping Faith: A Father-Son Story About Love and the United States Marine Corps, that, after my appearance on Oprah, became a bestseller and has since become a standard book many Marine Corps families read as a guide to Marine Corps boot camp, and the lives of Marine families.

I won't take a back seat to flag-waving Republicans and their "patriotism." Besides the fact that my son stood up and volunteered, Sarah Palin would not have been nominated if it were not for the abortion issue and John McCain's need to shore up the commitment of the Evangelical pro-life right wing. As John McCain and the leaders of Religious Right know (including figures such as Dr. Dobson and Pat Robertson, Rev. Hagee and their ilk) there would have been no Evangelical pro-life movement as we know it without my and my father's connecting the Republican Party to the Evangelicals.We led that movement into the pro-life camp in the 1970s and early 80s with a series of influential books and film series.

So, I know something about the Republican Party having been a lifelong Republican until recently when, disgusted with the dirty tricks perpetrated by Rove and others, I quit and registered as an independent voter. (I even worked for McCain in 2000 by going on many religious radio shows to plead his case against Bush.)

But there is a better reason for not being a Republican today: the Republican Party stands on the brink of becoming the Fascist American party. Republicans seem ready and willing to trample everything my son stood up for when he put on the uniform of United States.

The Fascist side of the Republican Party is summed up in her historic line: "He's worried that someone won't read them their rights." This snide off-the-cuff remark embodies everything that has gone wrong with America since George W. Bush became president.

In this one little aside is the American equivalent of another "little" phrase: "the final solution." Palin's is an attitude that places ideology and rabid nationalism above the law. For her, war trumps ethics. This attitude has turned America into a country that tortures prisoners, has put us on the wrong side of our Constitution, has taken the country that liberated Auschwitz and made it a place that now uses torture, intimidation and the desecration of human freedom as a means of war.

Palin and the Republican Fascists believe that we are so right, so great and so powerful that we no longer need to obey our own laws or even -- in the case of global warming -- the laws of nature. We can start wars for no reason and then claim "victory". We can torture in the name of Jesus.

Sarah Palin is a member of a theologically extreme church, one that views history as in its "final dispensation" wherein Jesus is about to return and wherein America can help this event along by spurring the apocalypse by goading Israel into a war eternal with its Arab neighbors.

So, our new Republican Fascism is actually Fascism with a twist of nutty Evangelical theology, much like German Fascism evolved with a nutty twist of bizarre superstition and stargazing on the part of Hitler and many leading Nazis who were as enamored by the occult as by politics.

We have seen the next Mussolini and she's wearing a skirt. Don't let Palin's "hockey mom" image fool you. Sarah Palin is the face of a post-democracy America, post-constitutional and post-freedom America. She is the home town "little Austrian" vice presidential candidate to a cancer-riddled old man who, chances are high, won't see the end of his first term in office if he becomes president due to illness and old age. The woman who said that we don't need to read people their rights may well be the next president.

The Fascist tactic that destroyed the democracies of old Europe was simple: mock and belittle your opponents, nibble at the edges of the rule of law, promote violence, and grasp at a weird religion of "destiny" (their version of American exceptionalism) with an "us" against "them" mentality, blame others, including the intellectual classes and the media, pit the working people against the perceived elite (Jews in Europe and today's university-educated Democratic Party leaders in America), take power based on grievance and fear and then set aside the constitution altogether based on claimed threats by outsiders.

This is the path that America is on with Palin and McCain. The election of 2008 is a choice between United States Constitution and Lipstick Fascism.

Frank Schaeffer is the author of CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back.

Read more analysis from HuffPost bloggers on Sarah Palin

Follow Frank Schaeffer on Twitter: www.twitter.com/frank_schaeffer

interesting read...