Denial from Rome...Can you believe it?

[onewhocares]

I am not normally one who might even consider to post a controversial thread, but this article which was sent to me sparked me to post here. I received this email tonight after my family had gathered to have my mother's requested corn beef and cabbage dinner. Somehow during dinner this subject came up. My mom, still living with us, is 78 and a devote Catholic. My brother brought up this situation and my mom was so quick to come to the defense of the church....I was without comments on her blindness to reality. My brother was taken aback...he left right after dinner. I would present this to you for your comments.




Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 11:14 EDT

Vatican unleashes exorcist for campaign of crazy
Rome responds to sex abuse scandals by letting its official Satan fighter speak. Turns out it's Satan's fault
By Mary Elizabeth Williams



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eustaquio/ / CC BY 2.0

When you're one of the most powerful institutions in the world and you've got an escalating series of sex abuse scandals erupting in such far-flung locales as Ireland, Germany, Brazil and beyond on a near daily basis, how do you even begin to do damage control? If you're the Catholic Church, maybe you say you're going to investigate. You issue a few letters. And then just to cover all your bases, you do a little Satan blaming. In a bold and arguably wack move, the Vatican's normally press-shy exorcist Don Gabriele Amorth has been granting interviews left and right lately, and they are a treasure trove of WTF moments.

You say you hadn't been aware the Vatican even had an official exorcist? Thought that stuff was just for Linda Blair movies? That's likely because, prior to last week, the Vatican had permitted its exorcist to grant one interview in the entire last century. Now, suddenly he's doing the rounds like he's got a new rom-com with Gerard Butler opening Friday.

Speaking to La Republica last week, Amorth, who in fact does have a new book, "Memoirs of an Exorcist," to shill, said, "When one speaks of 'the smoke of Satan' in the holy rooms, it is all true – including these latest stories of violence and pedophilia." A few days later, he told the UK Times, "All evil is due to the intervention of the Devil, including pedophilia." He also added that contemporary culture has "given in to the Evil One. You see it in the lack of faith, the empty churches, the collapse of the family. Compare the world of today to when I was a boy in Modena: families and parish communities were strong, women did not go out to work."

I don't want to read too much into it here, but did the honorary president of the International Association of Exorcists actually just sort of suggest that if some priest in Rio is sodomizing his altar boys, it might be my fault because I have a job? Cripes, you eat one lousy piece of fruit from the tree of knowledge and you get blamed for everything.

But he didn't stop there. Amorth then took his world publicity tour to the big time – granting an on camera interview Tuesday on CNN, he helpfully explained that pedophiles are "not possessed by the devil, they're tempted by the devil. They don't need exorcism; they need to be converted to God. They need to confess, they need true penance, true repentance."

I'm someone who self-identifies as a Catholic, who believes we shouldn't judge Christianity by its most evil elements any more than we would do likewise for any political, social or educational system we hold dear. My Catholic upbringing taught me kindness, forgiveness and non-materialism. I believe I can be outraged by the crimes of individuals – and their perpetuation by an institution looking out for its own best interests – and still find worth in a spiritual philosophy that would never tolerate that BS for one minute. All of which is my way of saying – I'm no Church basher, and I'm quite confident Don Gabriele Amorth is NUTS.

At least Amorth didn't completely insult the planet by suggesting that pedophila can be waved away with a little holy water and some incantations, any more than it can by transferring the offender to another parish. You likewise won't find too many people who'd disagree that confession and repentance are long, long overdue here. But that's just for starters. Until the Vatican gets it through its thick skull that sexual abuse isn't a sin but a crime, isn't a moral weakness but a dangerous pathology, it's going to continue putting up with predators within its ranks, thinking they can say they're sorry and make it all go away. It will go on holding the devil responsible for its own worst acts. And it will continue condemning its youngest and most vulnerable members to hell on earth.

Belle

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Uhm, does mean that the old expression "The Devil made me do it" still applies here? :rolleyes: I'd rather plead the 5th To a 5th...:bigrin:
Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

but your honour, its not my fault that I am a person with a deviant sexual nature, satan has my cellphone and my email and also rings me at work with offers of carnal pleasure and I require a restraining order against him... I am also having a exorcism on Thursday at 9 am, mass at 10 am and a lil boys party at lunchtime


sorry but I snorted coffee out my nose

[Realist]

For one thing, one of the most powerful influences on our lives is sexuality, sexual desire, and the craving it envelopes us with. It's not natural for us to be celibate. Think about it, what if you were told that you had to abstain from all sexual activity, thought, or even dreams? Even before I understood about sexuality, or experienced an orgasm, I knew there was something extremely powerful that drew me to both genders. If I were told at that point NOT to think of it, desire it, need it, I'm afraid that it'd make me want it even more.

I can't imagine the stress it puts on a person, who is supposed to be a religious leader and mentor, while dealing with the internal strife that sexual desires can exert!

No wonder they fall off the wagon!

[JP1986UM]

sexual desire is a natural part of life. I applaud those who, for their own reasons, choose to forego sex and devote their lives to the care of the poor and downtrodden (Mother Teresa for one)

However, I've always been inclined to believe its better for parish priests to marry and have wives and families even if its a pull to care for a parish of people. Their ranks would swell and the demands would lessen were married persons eligible for the priesthood since the numbers would grow dramatically as the people eligible are expanded.

I too knew I was bi when I was a kid. I also wanted at one point to be involved in the priesthood for a brief time, but couldn't reconcile my faith and my sexuality. So I dumped the idea of ministry. Simple.

I don't know what others have done or why they have, but there are many better solutions to a celibate priesthood. The eastern Orthodox seem to not suffer for it.:bipride:

[Long Duck Dong]

For one thing, one of the most powerful influences on our lives is sexuality, sexual desire, and the craving it envelopes us with. It's not natural for us to be celibate. Think about it, what if you were told that you had to abstain from all sexual activity, thought, or even dreams? Even before I understood about sexuality, or experienced an orgasm, I knew there was something extremely powerful that drew me to both genders. If I were told at that point NOT to think of it, desire it, need it, I'm afraid that it'd make me want it even more.

I can't imagine the stress it puts on a person, who is supposed to be a religious leader and mentor, while dealing with the internal strife that sexual desires can exert!

No wonder they fall off the wagon!

have to tweak your statement a lil realist...
for some of us, being celibate is normal, but we are people that may have reasons that are naturally occurring in us that allow us to be naturally celibate with no issues, tho we are normal people

for the average person tho, your statement is bang on.... the celibate lifestyle is not one that is easily done or handled for long periods of time
I really feel for priests that have taken vows of celibacy and now are torn better natural desire and oaths of celibacy.... specially when god tells people to take a partner in marriage if they are struggling with desires

[Hephaestion]

1) I think that I heard correctly this moring - as celibacy doesn't appear to work, the Catholic Church is thinking of abandoning the principle.

2) Cat & LDD - borrowing from the Flip Wilson character 'Geraldine' "... and then the Devil pulled a gun and made me sign you name to a cheque for that new dress....."

3) Can't get as loopy as in England where strict Jews had a token 'temple' (Arev) erected to cover many square miles of London so that they could get on with work within its boundaries on a Saturday instead of observing their own self-imposed religious limitations. Does money buy influence?


.

[darkeyes]

1) I think that I heard correctly this moring - as celibacy doesn't appear to work, the Catholic Church is thinking of abandoning the principle.

2) Cat & LDD - borrowing from the Flip Wilson character 'Geraldine' "... and then the Devil pulled a gun and made me sign you name to a cheque for that new dress....."

3) Can't get as loopy as in England where strict Jews had a token 'temple' (Arev) erected to cover many square miles of London so that they could get on with work within its boundaries on a Saturday instead of observing their own self-imposed religious limitations. Does money buy influence?




.

Celibacy not the only thing that don work in the Catholic Church is it Heph? But then.. wich church an wich religion don hav lotsa things wich don work?

Me wud nev pull a gun 2 get me a new dress... me wud jus smile sweetly and flicker me eyelashes.. tee hee:tong:

.. an dus money buy influence.. doubt ther a need 2 ansa that question reelly..;)

[AdamKadmon43]

FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

How can anyone with more than half a brain take seriously an organization lead by a bunch of misogynistic old men walking about in dresses, and being all grumpy and mal-adjusted because they have to be celebate.

[FalconAngel]

Seen this kind of thing before, as demonstrated quite eloquently by all of the folks resurrecting the old phrase of "the devil made me do it". Well done, btw, folks.:)

The point being that it is all about avoiding one's own responsibility for one's own actions, placing them squarely on a supernatural power that they "have no control over".

I've seen it in all of the Islamic laws that blame the crime of rape on the victim.

The church cannot do that in western culture, since we don't buy that enough anymore, so blame it on their fictional devil, instead. And it is a distraction from the fact that they don't take any effective action against the perpetrators within their own ranks.

A very effective distractive strategy of deception.

Brilliant!!

Except not so effective against those of us that are paying attention. Numbers that seem to be growing for a change.

[FalconAngel]

Me wud nev pull a gun 2 get me a new dress... me wud jus smile sweetly and flicker me eyelashes.. tee hee:tong:

That may work for you, but not all of us are that cute.:bigrin:

[12voltman59]

The Church is blaming Satan---but cannot admit that their policies of prohibiting priests to marry and not allowing women to serve as priests have anything to do with the problems they are having!!! As the tagline in a commercial says, this is "Priceless!"

The Church leadership needs a strong dose of reality...if not they really will become an anachranism and irrelevant.

[darkeyes]

That may work for you, but not all of us are that cute.:bigrin:
aaah... the trials an tribulations a the uncute... jus blame it all on Auld Nick!:bigrin:

[locotom]

i once read a quote i cant remember who said it but it goes religion was started when the first conman met the first sucker, does anything more need to be said

[Canticle]

Belle,

I'm not too sure what significance the pictures had, but the piece you posted, was quite excellent. The Roman Catholic Church is not the only church to have exorcists, as there are a few within the Anglican Church, I do believe.

I do wish, that they would realise, they are wasting their time, as there is no Devil/Satan, in very much the same way, as there is no Creator God....but that is another story...tangents again.

The piece was quite excellent. I can believe that the Church of Rome, along with all the other established and evangelical churches, will find time to issue denials, if they feel it suits them. Their view of the world, is a bit like sitting in a whisky glass and never coming to terms with reality.

The Roman Empire never faded, it just changed. What a lot of nasty things we should be saying to the Emperor Constantine, for adopting Christianity, when it was thought, the politically correct thing to do.

Realist. JP1986UM, LDD

I guess you are all right and no one very wrong.

Realist, I have to agree with LDD about celibacy. Enforced celibacy is, indeed, an unnatural thing, and JP is correct, when saying that a married clergyman, has an advantage over a single person (obviously this would depend upon the individual).

The wives of most Church of England clergymen and with female vicars, their husbands, usually work alongside their spouse. In a village, or close community, a well attended local church, can be at the centre of that commuity's life.

There is much more to a church than ringing bells, singing hymns, worshipping the almighty etc etc. There are groups, clubs, associations, commuity spirit, working together as a group of people and not everyone necessarily, being religious.

Within such a commuity, the spouse of a clergy 'person' can be involved in working with people, freeing the clergy to available for other important needs, which will always demand his/her attention.

Of course, one doesn't have to be part of any religious organisation, to do the same sort of work and one does not have to be married to be successful, in any form of interaction with other people. With the clergy, a single person might do an excellent job, but I do think that a married man, or woman, has a slight edge, over the single person.

Celibacy...chosen celibacy and not enforced, happens for many reasons. It does not make a person any less sexual...it does not mean that they are frigid or asexual. It's a choice. Enforced celibacy is not. That is unnatural.

Like LDD (apart from when Twyla was visiting him...:bigrin:), I am celibate. I am celibate for a good reason and aim to remain that way, now, for the rest of my days, but frigid, asexual, never feeling horny or never fancying anyone....NO....I still am a sexual person, but for me...it works on a more spiritual level.

And that is an important point to remember. If an individual chooses celibacy, it can be spiritually enhancing, not destructive, or unnatural. The individual has made a choice, it has not been forced upon them.

Heph (your post made me smile) and Fran. There are indeed.....loads of things wrong with every belief system....hypocrisy abounds in every religion or in those with no belief. From Pagan to Atheist, all are human beings and therefore, they will behave as such. Free thinker, or brainwashed and indoctrinated, human behaviour, for good or bad, will out.

''FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.'' etc.......

Hmmm....not a lot to be answered there...nothing at all.

Falcon

''Seen this kind of thing before, as demonstrated quite eloquently by all of the folks resurrecting the old phrase of "the devil made me do it". Well done, btw, folks.''

I agree

''The point being that it is all about avoiding one's own responsibility for one's own actions, placing them squarely on a supernatural power that they "have no control over".

This is so true, Falcon. So many so called Christians (and I hate naming one religion), believe that they can say and do, just what they like, because, miracle of miracles, they are automatically forgiven, by some supreme and supernatural being. Not so!

There is such a thing as personal responsibility. What we do wrong, we must put right, on our own. What you give out, you get back. Unfortunately, so many people think that personal responsibility does not matter and they will carry on destroying all that they come into contact with. However, in the end, it is they who are the loser, not their victim.

''I've seen it in all of the Islamic laws that blame the crime of rape on the victim.''

Very true...and so appalling.

''The church cannot do that in western culture, since we don't buy that enough anymore, so blame it on their fictional devil, instead. And it is a distraction from the fact that they don't take any effective action against the perpetrators within their own ranks.

A very effective distractive strategy of deception.

Brilliant!!''

They can try...but ultimately...they fail.

''Except not so effective against those of us that are paying attention. Numbers that seem to be growing for a change.''

Indeed, they are!

''The Church is blaming Satan---but cannot admit that their policies of prohibiting priests to marry and not allowing women to serve as priests have anything to do with the problems they are having!!! As the tagline in a commercial says, this is "Priceless!"

The Church leadership needs a strong dose of reality...if not they really will become an anachranism and irrelevant.''

It's coming Volty....that strong dose of reality....I can assure you.....it is coming. Think on this....How many people don't realise, that the election of Ratzenberger, to the position of Pope (after only one failed ballot, an election he organised, as the late Pope's right hand man), was just too much of a coincidence. I don't know one person, who doesn't think it was all planned in advance.

Oh, golly gosh...I've been rather wordy...again! Ah, well...I couldn't give a Ratzenberger's.........LOL!

[darkeyes]

I agree wiith almost every word Canticle. Maybe a wee quibble about the inference that becoming a catholic priest is enforced celibacy.. it is inasmuch as it's in the rules, but people become priests (or monks or nuns for that matter) normally these days, voluntarily, in theory at least, as a calling.

Celibacy, enforced or no is but a small thing.. the main gist for me is the end.. the man in the big chair.. he is there to undo all the liberalising done over the last half century or so and return the Catholic Church to where it was prior to John XXIII. Maybe even before then. He is not a progressive man by any means, and does not appear to follow to any great degree the teachings of his saviour.. he has already begun and there are signs that he intends that that liberalisation (such as it was) of the past 50 years is done, and does not care who he pressures and what damage he does to achieve that end..

I firmly believe that he is there to entrench the most conservative of catholic tradition and crush what liberalism remains, and he cares not one whit how he achieves it..and let me say here and now, that one whipping post he is already using is the LGBT movement.. his actions and comments are not encouraging and I believe he intends to have the Church lead a war against we spawn of the devil. I have always warned that the day would come when there would be a reaction to the progress we have made in attaining rights for gay, bisexual and transpeople.. there have always been little churches, many vehemently anti catholic who have fought against LGBT rights.. now that the behemoth is stirring itself and losing its compassion and understanding it may well be that that day is not far off.. and we must all be on our guard and prepare to do what is necessary to maintain and continue the progress of the last 50 years for our kind.

Yet it is not about the LGBT movement we should concern ourselves most.. it is the condition of humanity as a whole.. we already have fundamental Christians and Moslems threatening chaos in the world.. extreme political organisations preaching hatred and violence who are aligned to no religion as well as to many religions..we are but one tool in their armoury to draw the most bigotted to their chest.. there are many others.. they are being contained with difficulty but they are being contained... if the Roman Catholic Church decides, as is not unreasonable to suppose, that it too must ally itself with a hitherto opponent, to reassert itself as the premier religion on this earth, and to force the retreat of secularism athiesm or agnosticism, and any other philosophy or brand of religion, then it will do so..however momentary are those alliances.. if it suits it's purpose it will indeed ally itself to the devil.

That is the danger of the election of Ratzenberger.. it is the reimposition of Roman Catholic primacy over all of humanity and over all governments.. yes of course it sounds far fetched and extreme.. yet already the stirrings are there about which, whatever our religion, whatever our belief's.. we ignore the man we know of as Pope Benedict at our peril..

[Canticle]

Hmmm....Fran.....being half Yorkshire and therefore argumentative, by nature (family gatherings were always....fun), I could argue the point, that if a calling, requires one to be celibate, then it is an enforced celibacy....even if the calling is a choice.....However....we'll forget about that.

Quite honestly, I don't think the Church of Rome, has ever been anything, other than a fairly evil force, as a whole....not talking about individuals. It's just a continuation of another Empire, that of the Romans, which also persecuted people and took great pleasure in either torturing, or killing them.

I see Ratzenberger and his kind, as a kind of fulfilment (sp) and that there is an end coming, not a new and more frightening beginning. I believe that about all the fundamentalist Christians and Muslims too. The shit will not hit the fan.....it will be more like Krakatoa and then some truth will emerge from the ashes.

Gee, I'd love to be aroud to see that......Oh, yeah...I will.....:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Hmmm....Fran.....being half Yorkshire and therefore argumentative, by nature (family gatherings were always....fun), I could argue the point, that if a calling, requires one to be celibate, then it is an enforced celibacy....even if the calling is a choice.....However....we'll forget about that.

Quite honestly, I don't think the Church of Rome, has ever been anything, other than a fairly evil force, as a whole....not talking about individuals. It's just a continuation of another Empire, that of the Romans, which also persecuted people and took great pleasure in either torturing, or killing them.

I see Ratzenberger and his kind, as a kind of fulfilment (sp) and that there is an end coming, not a new and more frightening beginning. I believe that about all the fundamentalist Christians and Muslims too. The shit will not hit the fan.....it will be more like Krakatoa and then some truth will emerge from the ashes.

Gee, I'd love to be aroud to see that......Oh, yeah...I will.....:bigrin:

Tee hee.. me mum is a lancashire lass.. me c's u an 'er wud hit it off like house on fire...:tong:

Lemme put it this way.. if I worked in any other profession than the one I do, were I to meet and have a relationship with a schoolboy or girl age 16-18, it is perfectly legal and acceptable in our society.. however as I have a duty of care I am proscribed in law from having such a relationship with any child in any school in which I am employed.. and it is right that this should be so... I chose my profession because it is what I have always wanted to do.. and so, voluntarily, it is something I choose not to do.. take Kate out of the equation for now... if I was unnattached it is still something I would choose not to do.. however much the temptation.. not because I could not fancy a 16-18 yo, but because I am doing a job I love and do believe that if I acted other I would fail myself, the boy or girl involved, the children as a whole and my profession and vocation... I do see your point but whether or not the rules as they are were in force, I would still not entertain a relationship with any pupil in my charge..

Every form of employmeny has some form of compulsion..there are rules..its the way of the world for good or ill.. but the entering of that job is entirely voluntary.. therefore once we enter the world of employment, we sacrifice voluntarily certain freedoms.. that I can agree with..

ps the Krakatoa thing? Evacuate Rome 'cept for the Vatican..seems like a gud idea 2 me... tee hee

[Canticle]

He He, indeed.....hate to tell you this.....My Dad was from Lancashire....lol!

Not much too argue with there, Fran......but.......

[darkeyes]

He He, indeed.....hate to tell you this.....My Dad was from Lancashire....lol!

Not much too argue with there, Fran......but.......

There always a but... tee hee:bigrin:

Knew ther wos a reason we got on.... tho they don haff speak foony down there..eee lass.. yas reet reet enoof.... wen me gets down ther its like livin in an episode a Corrie...:tong:

[Darkside2009]

I see another thread where reason and logic is going to be in short supply.

Because one is celibate it does not necessarily follow that one will be a predatory paedophile.

Many people quite happily choose and lead, a celibate life-style through choice.

Through out the World there must be thousands, if not tens of thousands, of priests and nuns tending to the spiritual and welfare needs of their parishioners.

I'm sure the vast majority of these are decent people, motivated by nothing more than a wish to serve God as best they can, and to help others less fortunate than themselves.

In so large an organisation there are bound to be individuals that bring shame on the church, and by reflection on their colleagues.

In other walks of life there have been individuals who have misused their authority and betrayed the trust put in them.

It has happened in teaching, politics, law-enforcement, medicine and I'm sure most other professions you care to think of.

So the efforts should be concentrated on ensuring individuals do not abuse their authority, and for those that do, that they be swiftly brought to account for their actions.

The mistake the Roman Catholic Church has made, in my view, is to try to limit the damage to the church by covering-up the actions of these renegade priests and nuns. To add insult to injury, they have done so in a manner that makes them appear aloof and arrogant.

Truth has an awkward habit of revealing itself in the end, and the church will be further damaged in the eyes of its adherents, if they feel the church has been less than honest with them.

[Canticle]

;)
I see another thread where reason and logic is going to be in short supply.

Because one is celibate it does not necessarily follow that one will be a predatory paedophile.

Many people quite happily choose and lead, a celibate life-style through choice.

Through out the World there must be thousands, if not tens of thousands, of priests and nuns tending to the spiritual and welfare needs of their parishioners.

I'm sure the vast majority of these are decent people, motivated by nothing more than a wish to serve God as best they can, and to help others less fortunate than themselves.

In so large an organisation there are bound to be individuals that bring shame on the church, and by reflection on their colleagues.

In other walks of life there have been individuals who have misused their authority and betrayed the trust put in them.

It has happened in teaching, politics, law-enforcement, medicine and I'm sure most other professions you care to think of.

So the efforts should be concentrated on ensuring individuals do not abuse their authority, and for those that do, that they be swiftly brought to account for their actions.

The mistake the Roman Catholic Church has made, in my view, is to try to limit the damage to the church by covering-up the actions of these renegade priests and nuns. To add insult to injury, they have done so in a manner that makes them appear aloof and arrogant.

Truth has an awkward habit of revealing itself in the end, and the church will be further damaged in the eyes of its adherents, if they feel the church has been less than honest with them.



Do you know.....you are absolutely correct. There, I'm agreeing with someone...every single word that has been written. Well done. But my reputation is ruined. ;)

[JP1986UM]

FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

How can anyone with more than half a brain take seriously an organization lead by a bunch of misogynistic old men walking about in dresses, and being all grumpy and mal-adjusted because they have to be celebate.

Thanks for the unnecessary insult.

When you get your head removed from your ass, let us all know.

Until then, the rest of us can discuss the issue w/o sniveling retards like you chiming in with your tripe.

[AdamKadmon43]

Thanks for the unnecessary insult.

When you get your head removed from your ass, let us all know.

Until then, the rest of us can discuss the issue w/o sniveling retards like you chiming in with your tripe.

"sniveling retard"

Very typical... when they can not refute my argument, they start the personal attacks.

[AdamKadmon43]

Until then, the rest of us can discuss the issue w/o sniveling retards like you chiming in with your tripe.

And perhaps you should not be giving yourself more credit for intellectual capacity than you actually possess.

[Canticle]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.


As you like it - William Shakespeare - Act 2 - Scene 7

[Canticle]

''I see another thread where reason and logic is going to be in short supply.''


Darkside, I knew that there had to be something, with which, I did not agree...but only this. I think the majority of comments, have been quite intelligent and some a little humorous. I'd say 99.9% were just fine.

[JP1986UM]

"sniveling retard"

Very typical... when they can not refute my argument, they start the personal attacks.

Lemme refresh your impudent mind honey.

You started off with the attack on the church, thereby attacking all associated with it, either lay people or clergy.

perhaps YOU should take a look at your own comments instead of deflecting to mine.

For your own benefit, I'll merely post your sniveling comment here:

How can anyone with more than half a brain take seriously an organization lead by a bunch of misogynistic old men walking about in dresses, and being all grumpy and mal-adjusted because they have to be celebate.

perhaps a course in logic for both of you is warranted. You insulted us first, then can't be bothered to recall YOU started the attacks on us. So blow it out of your ass dear. Or apologize for the insult.

[AdamKadmon43]

Lemme refresh your impudent mind honey.

So blow it out of your ass dear.

I really hate it when they call me "Honey" and "Dear". Hee Hee.

:tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: