Quebec Human Rights' Decision and Visible Minority/Religion

[tenni]

Quebec’s Health Insurance Board has no obligation to accommodate demands made by women who wear the niqab according to the province’s Human Rights Commission.

If a woman wearing a niqab requests that she be served by a woman rather than a man in the identification process to obtain a health insurance card, officials can refuse her request because according to the Human Rights Commission the client’s religious rights aren’t being violated in any “significant” way.

Up until last October, the province’s health board was accommodating a veiled woman’s request to be served by a woman. The directive was viewed as a violation of the equality between men and women by some critics who considered the niqab a symbol of a woman’s submission and exploitation. The board requested the commission's advice on how to handle such cases in the future.

The commission ruled that wearing the niqab did not always necessarily have a religious meaning. It also believed that equality rights should overweigh demands of those who insisted on wearing the niqab when being served by a public institution.

“When equality is being considered when defining standards and directives it must make it possible to respect the right to equality,” the commission observed. “Since freedom of religion was not significantly undermined, there is no obligation to grant an accommodation.”

The commission also issued an opinion on two other separate cases involving the health board’s treatment of clients. In both cases the commission rejected accommodating special demands by certain clients.
In the first case involving a client who refused to be served by an employee who was part of a visible minority, the commission concluded that the client’s request was “discriminatory and infringed on the dignity of the health insurance board’s employee.”

In the other case of a client who refused to be served by an employee wearing a hidjab, the commission ruled that the wearing of the veil, even for religious reasons, had no bearing on the delivery of services. The incident reflected more a clash of values rather than an infringement on the client’s freedom of religion.

“It cannot be concluded that the neutrality of the public institution was called into question because the service being delivered remained neutral,” the commission concluded.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec-rights-body-rules-against-veil-in-health-card-case/article1502119/

[Donkey_burger]

Political correctness gone wild.

DB :bipride:

[darkeyes]

OK...wait a sec. So, a woman cannot insist on being seen by a female doctor? WTF?

See? This is the sort of thing government controlled medicine brings. You start to lose your freedom of choice. You should be able to choose your doctor. Not be saddled with whatever schmuck happened to be next up in the batter's box.

Pasa

And not being allowed to see a female doctor is a state medicine preserve? Don't be silly Pasa.. it happens in private medicine as well.. in the UK we have the right to see a doctor of whatever sex we wish although sometimes it does create delays vis a vis appointments it being a question of logistics and availability. I have a female GP, but were the best GP I could have be male it wouldn't bother me. My consultant is male and is very good indeed.Most people just want a good doctor, and sex is immaterial, but if people want doctors of whatever sex then provision should be made for that irrespective of the reason.. in this instance I think its bloody appalling and someones head should roll over it.. I look forward to hearing developments...

[TwylaTwobits]

That's just sad...I'm sure there are many women who whether or not their religion demands it would rather be treated by a female. In the issue of the photo's, I don't see how that could not be a violation of their religion. They are wearing the veils to keep their face and hair from other men's eyes. Part of their religion whether or not dictated by the Koran and heavily enforced by their male relatives. Will it not be an infringment of their religion when they have the picture done and are honest that yes it was a male and they are beaten half to death? Or will the ruling body say that was an aberration and nothing to do with getting the Health Card?

[Long Duck Dong]

I stand on stony ground on this....

I have always believed that a doctor of either gender, should treat all patients equally regardless of religion and sexuality and gender and regardless of the doctors personal and religious beliefs

that aside, what a fucking nightmare,..... the conflict of rights on so many levels.... and it emphasizes the issues with personal, religious, human and equality rights...

personally, I beleive that a person should have the right to the best medical care first and foremost.....
next comes the personal right to be seen by a doctor of a perferred gender, as some people feel comfortable with a doctor of the same or opposite gender
next comes the religious aspect etc etc

but unfortunately, you walk over the doctors right to practice medicine equally for all people regardless of gender, religion, sexuality and race, tho they took a oath to do just that
you are discriminating against a doctor on the grounds of gender...
etc etc

all i can say is what a fucking minefeild..... yet the base issue with them is what rights is it ok to trample on, while upholding rights,... the same issue I have addressed in other threads.....

[tenni]

Pasa
Actually, the woman demanded to be served by a female while she was applying for her health card and not demanding to have a female doctor. The ruling states that she may not make such a demand nor may a person refuse to be served by a woman in a habib who might be serving him. In neither situation, would there be discrimination on either side of the desk.

"If a woman wearing a niqab requests that she be served by a woman rather than a man in the identification process to obtain a health insurance card, officials can refuse her request because according to the Human Rights Commission the client’s religious rights aren’t being violated in any “significant” way."

If she wants a female doctor, that would be up to her to find a female doctor. I'm sure that if it was in an emergency room that an attempt would be made to find a female doctor if one is available. The same would apply to a specialist but if the only specialist available was a male, she probably would have to accept him or do without? She could not state that she was being discriminated against according to the Quebec Human Rights commission.


OK...wait a sec. So, a woman cannot insist on being seen by a female doctor? WTF?

See? This is the sort of thing government controlled medicine brings. You start to lose your freedom of choice. You should be able to choose your doctor. Not be saddled with whatever schmuck happened to be next up in the batter's box.

Pasa

[tenni]

The federal government has made a decision that a person may not vote unless they show their face and identification that shows their face. A woman in a niqab may not vote unless she show her face. I understand that all efforts would be made that she would show her face and face ID to a woman. The same applies for a driving license.(although I doubt that a woman in a niqab would apply for a driving license. If she got one, I wonder what decision would be made about her driving in a niqab? Yet, to be decided I guess..lol

This ruling suggests that future rulings will not perceive the niqab as a religious requirement in Quebec. In other provinces and federally the decision will still have to be made. This ruling will probably be used as a determinant. Some Muslim groups (including Imans) in Canada have been very vocal in opposing the niqab. They have stated that it is not connected to Islam as much as 16thc customs of some countries.



That's just sad...I'm sure there are many women who whether or not their religion demands it would rather be treated by a female. In the issue of the photo's, I don't see how that could not be a violation of their religion. They are wearing the veils to keep their face and hair from other men's eyes. Part of their religion whether or not dictated by the Koran and heavily enforced by their male relatives. Will it not be an infringment of their religion when they have the picture done and are honest that yes it was a male and they are beaten half to death? Or will the ruling body say that was an aberration and nothing to do with getting the Health Card?

[darkeyes]

The federal government has made a decision that a person may not vote unless they show their face and identification that shows their face. A woman in a niqab may not vote unless she show her face. I understand that all efforts would be made that she would show her face and face ID to a woman. The same applies for a driving license.(although I doubt that a woman in a niqab would apply for a driving license. If she got one, I wonder what decision would be made about her driving in a niqab? Yet, to be decided I guess..lol

This ruling suggests that future rulings will not perceive the niqab as a religious requirement in Quebec. In other provinces and federally the decision will still have to be made. This ruling will probably be used as a determinant. Some Muslim groups (including Imans) in Canada have been very vocal in opposing the niqab. They have stated that it is not connected to Islam as much as 16thc customs of some countries.

Bloody shockin.. we hav postal votin 'ere Tenni... ya ask an ifyas registered 2 vote..ya get... assume u hav summat similar.. an 2 register 2 vote..or 2 post a vote ya don need 2 show ya face... old drivin licenses r not photographic.. but newer 1s r.. an passports.. an if they ev get 'em off the ground.. so will ID cards (sore point).. shud b fun..

[tenni]

Bloody shockin.. we hav postal votin 'ere Tenni... ya ask an ifyas registered 2 vote..ya get... assume u hav summat similar.. an 2 register 2 vote..or 2 post a vote ya don need 2 show ya face... old drivin licenses r not photographic.. but newer 1s r.. an passports.. an if they ev get 'em off the ground.. so will ID cards (sore point).. shud b fun..

Alas the colonies do not have such technologies as Mother England...lol

I think that there has been some discussion but this very question about a person being who they say they are raises it head regarding voting. I'm not convince that "your way" is the best way regarding voting either.
* today's postings by me are a bit more right radical than Pasa...what is that about?..:eek::bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Alas the colonies do not have such technologies as Mother England...lol

I think that there has been some discussion but this very question about a person being who they say they are raises it head regarding voting. I'm not convince that "your way" is the best way regarding voting either.
* today's postings by me are a bit more right radical than Pasa...what is that about?..:eek::bigrin:

Mother wer?? Don pushya luk tenni me luffly..an jus wen me wos warmin 2 ya!!!;)

Will try to clear up a little misunderstanding u may have about our voting hun. Normally 2 vote after we register, prior to an election we get sent a polling card.. lil scrap of card with ur home addie an other lil bits of useless info.. no pic.. only ur name and address.. we nip along to the polling station and hey presto..we put our cross on the ballot paper.. easy peasy.. historically, if we were confined to bed or away, or overseas on military service.. we could request a postal vote..so most votes were cast at the polling station..

Enter Tony Blyugh.. the great Democrat.. to counter falling voting figures.. he brings in that anyone can request a postal ballot.. I havent a clue how many do so nowadays.. but we just nip down the post office or pillar box and send off our voting paper before the election date and there we are.. our democratic duty is done.. of course Blyugh didn stop there.. nice experiments wiv votin on line.. not 2 successful but ther ya r..

I will saunter down to the polling station on May 6 or weneva our elction is held.. cos I am young, fit and wont be away anywhere. That is where my vote will be cast and should be cast.. postal voting as Blyugh has given us is soooo open 2 corruption .. an the experiments on online votin arguably even worse.. no Tenni me luffly.. in my humble opinion... postal voting should be allowed only in special circumstances never as an automatic right.. ppeople died to get me the vote and the least I can do is to take the trouble to get out of the house, go down to the polling station and physically cast my vote...

God knos wot it will b like if an wen they make us carry ID cards wiv all the info they wanna put on them... but thats anotha story...

[tenni]

Well, we are actually expected to bring not only the mailed polling station location ..like the Scots (is that better? ;) but bring identification. I actually, did sit in at a poll. I challenged one person for their identity but no one else. I'm not sure why I challenged them..maybe I was just being a Richard Cranium but I think that the person might have looked too young to vote....lol It is a kind of boring job and I don't think that I'd do it again but an experience.

I think that compulsory voting like in Australia might be interesting and maybe beneficial to get near perfect voting. Apparently, the Aussies must vote or get a fine.

[darkeyes]

Well, we are actually expected to bring not only the mailed polling station location ..like the Scots (is that better? ;) but bring identification. I actually, did sit in at a poll. I challenged one person for their identity but no one else. I'm not sure why I challenged them..maybe I was just being a Richard Cranium but I think that the person might have looked too young to vote....lol It is a kind of boring job and I don't think that I'd do it again but an experience.

I think that compulsory voting like in Australia might be interesting and maybe beneficial to get near perfect voting. Apparently, the Aussies must vote or get a fine.

Hav sum sympathy wiv compellin peeps 2 vote.. cosa wot me sed b4.. lotsa peeps died gettin us the vote.. an outa respect we shud honour them by castin our vote..wetha it b for a candidate, or party.. or wetha ya spoil ya ballot paper in protest or ne otha reason is immaterial.. yet compulsory votin goes 'gainst me libertarian principles.. an ne way..did the many who died 2 win democracy an the vote for all, lose ther lives jus 2 force the tyranny a compulsory votin on us? Sumhow me doubts it...

[tenni]

tyrany?...hmmm


Do you see voting as a citizen's duty?

What happens to people in society who do not fulfill their duties as a citizen?
Don't pay taxes...get fined.

I'm not a Libertarian me luffly. They are a rare type here but a little more common in Etats Unis. Over here they seem to align themselves up more along the lines of the Conservative right wing. I somehow do not see you aligning with many of those people.

[Canticle]

OK...wait a sec. So, a woman cannot insist on being seen by a female doctor? WTF?

See? This is the sort of thing government controlled medicine brings. You start to lose your freedom of choice. You should be able to choose your doctor. Not be saddled with whatever schmuck happened to be next up in the batter's box.

Pasa

No, Pasa....that is not what happens. Hells Bells....how can you make such a sweeping statement, when you don't live in a country, which has a National Health Service. What twaddle.

[Canticle]

And not being allowed to see a female doctor is a state medicine preserve? Don't be silly Pasa.. it happens in private medicine as well.. in the UK we have the right to see a doctor of whatever sex we wish although sometimes it does create delays vis a vis appointments it being a question of logistics and availability. I have a female GP, but were the best GP I could have be male it wouldn't bother me. My consultant is male and is very good indeed.Most people just want a good doctor, and sex is immaterial, but if people want doctors of whatever sex then provision should be made for that irrespective of the reason.. in this instance I think its bloody appalling and someones head should roll over it.. I look forward to hearing developments...

Good answer Fran...very good. I have to add, that my GP practice has two female doctors (the senior partners) and a male. No way would I see the male and a lot of other people feel the same...male and female.....because the ''gentleman'' in question is an ignorant and big headed bugger.

When I first lived where I do, the practice was a husband and wife team and the wife would have Asian women sent to her from another town, becuase they had to be examined by a female doctor. So Pasa could not be more wrong.

A National Health Service, as you and I know, is not perfect, but it does bring healthcare to all and not a privileged few. Yet, at the same time there is still private medical care, if people wish to pay more.

And Pasa...a National Health Service, is never totally free. Free when needed....no money needing to change hands, before medical treatment, no isurance forms to fill out, but the people of a country, with such a care service....DO pay for it. If they didn't...it wouldn't exist at all.

[darkeyes]

tyrany?...hmmm


Do you see voting as a citizen's duty?

What happens to people in society who do not fulfill their duties as a citizen?
Don't pay taxes...get fined.

I'm not a Libertarian me luffly. They are a rare type here but a little more common in Etats Unis. Over here they seem to align themselves up more along the lines of the Conservative right wing. I somehow do not see you aligning with many of those people.

Actually not in the sense you may think.. it is not a duty to the state.. but a duty in honour of those who sacrficed so much to obtain for us our democratic rights.. it is a duty to my fellow human beings alive and dead... it is a duty I have never failed to honour... but I have not said I would have people compelled to vote.. that is with their own conscience.. odd thing..it is actually compulsory for people to register for the vote.. yet millions fail to do so.. and I have never heard of anyone ever be fined for it.. and neither should they. I register and vote because I want to out of a sense of obligation to those I have mentioned..

Libertarianism isn't confined to the Right, Tenni as you well know.. there are people known as libertarian socialists, and in Europe at least, libertarianism is not confined to the any particular political philosophy...but being socialist and libertarian puts me a million miles away from any on the other side of the pond who calls themselves libertarian and conservative..:tong:

[tenni]

I see your points darkeyes
However, I personally feel that it is a duty to my country to vote. You should not complain about what the government is doing unless you have participated. I see it less significant for those who fought for my country. I "buy" into the concept that this may have had more truth about fighting for democracy during WW2 & WW1 than today. I do not believe that the British and Canadian troops who are dying in Afghanistan are doing it for my freedom. I realize after typing that is different from fighting/dying for democracy. I don't see Karzai as any great supporter of democracy in his country much less in my country or your country.

[darkeyes]

Good answer Fran...very good. I have to add, that my GP practice has two female doctors (the senior partners) and a male. No way would I see the male and a lot of other people feel the same...male and female.....because the ''gentleman'' in question is an ignorant and big headed bugger.

When I first lived where I do, the practice was a husband and wife team and the wife would have Asian women sent to her from another town, becuase they had to be examined by a female doctor. So Pasa could not be more wrong.

A National Health Service, as you and I know, is not perfect, but it does bring healthcare to all and not a privileged few. Yet, at the same time there is still private medical care, if people wish to pay more.

And Pasa...a National Health Service, is never totally free. Free when needed....no money needing to change hands, before medical treatment, no isurance forms to fill out, but the people of a country, with such a care service....DO pay for it. If they didn't...it wouldn't exist at all.
The thing bout a National health Service, Canticle is that it does not bankrupt anyone while saving their lives or helping them through serious or even not so serious illness.. yes we pay for it though taxation, but our credits NEVER run out and we are treated from beginning to end and never have to worry about medical bills. Of course it is an imperfect machine.. but imperfect as it is, the NHS is a wonderful apparatus for saving lives and treating people who are ill...

The NHS has saved my life twice, Canticle, and neither time was I or my parents ever billed for a penny. My parents had four children, one of whom, my twin, died at childbirth, and I was seriously ill myself, but they were never billed a single penny for antenatal, confinement, my treatment or post natal care.. Kate has had two children and the same can be said of her.. my mother had a hysterectomy, my sister appendicitis and we have all had minor illnesses which required medical treatment, have all had doctor and hospital appointments and what did they cost at the time? Bus fares or petrol costs and maybe a cup of coffee. And no doubt you have had simliar experiences. For all its faults..give me the good ole NHS ne time over what they have in the States...

[Canticle]

The thing bout a National health Service, Canticle is that it does not bankrupt anyone while saving their lives or helping them through serious or even not so serious illness.. yes we pay for it though taxation, but our credits NEVER run out and we are treated from beginning to end and never have to worry about medical bills. Of course it is an imperfect machine.. but imperfect as it is, the NHS is a wonderful apparatus for saving lives and treating people who are ill...

The NHS has saved my life twice, Canticle, and neither time was I or my parents ever billed for a penny. My parents had four children, one of whom, my twin, died at childbirth, and I was seriously ill myself, but they were never billed a single penny for antenatal, confinement, my treatment or post natal care.. Kate has had two children and the same can be said of her.. my mother had a hysterectomy, my sister appendicitis and we have all had minor illnesses which required medical treatment, have all had doctor and hospital appointments and what did they cost at the time? Bus fares or petrol costs and maybe a cup of coffee. And no doubt you have had simliar experiences. For all its faults..give me the good ole NHS ne time over what they have in the States...

I have indeed, had similar experiences....one very recently...when I thought I had a DVT in my leg. It wasn't, thankfully, but an infection....but even though I had to go to A&E, I was seen quickly, had two scans and then a third (only yesterday), because the second scan picked up somethig else...luckily not serious and connected with the first problem.

What did impress me, was what my own GP did. She spoke to the Consultants and came back to me within days, to let me know that the third scan was just to make sure and to tell me that my blood tests were all clear.

I get a follow up scan in a couple of months....but I was treated quickly and efficiently. I have no complaints, this time.

Of course there is the time I dented a car and launched a guinea pig into outerspace.............but that is another story......lol

[darkeyes]

I see your points darkeyes
However, I personally feel that it is a duty to my country to vote. You should not complain about what the government is doing unless you have participated. I see it less significant for those who fought for my country. I "buy" into the concept that this may have had more truth about fighting for democracy during WW2 & WW1 than today. I do not believe that the British and Canadian troops who are dying in Afghanistan are doing it for my freedom. I realize after typing that is different from fighting/dying for democracy. I don't see Karzai as any great supporter of democracy in his country much less in my country or your country.

I have not been talking about the men and women who have died in war.. it is not for them I owe the obligation to vote.. it is at best arguable that men and women have died in war fighting for democracy..they have fought and died for a system.. and to keep an elite in existence.. I am talking about the many men and women who fought and died to obtain for us the vote.. the civilians who were oppressed and crushed under foot by an uncaring and unfeeling rich and powerful elite who were determined to keep all power to themselves and the rest of us well trodden underfoot... I agree with you..I see Karzai as the latest dictatorial western stooge... a bit like Saddam and the Taliban once were...and many other dictatorial nasties around the world...