Toyota has some real problems!

[12voltman59]

The other day a California State Trooper had to use his cruiser to help stop a runaway Toyota Prius--now someone else had an incident with one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35781956/ns/business-autos

I think that Toyota has got some serious problems with their cars.

[grayhound]

In MHO I beleive there is to much computer control in the vehicles, and not enough shielding to prevent external interfearance. Even your home computer can mess up because it gets an external spike or signal.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Yikes!
Thats ok. I'll take my big ole Dodge Ram truck that doesnt Have all of this so-fista-cated computer rigga-maroar in it. I dont trust "smart" cars. Gimmie a dumb ole vehicle anyday.
Cat

[tenni]

I'm a bit inclined to agree with Cat. I have a 98 Jeep that has worked very well. It is beginning to cost me about a $1000 in repairs each of the past two years. However, it cost me nothing except oil changes and new brake shoes for the previous ten years. It runs well. My muffler lasted eleven years and that was unheard of before with other cars. (salt laden northern roads up here) I've heard that the new Jeeps are not as good. I was looking towards toyota Prius as a bud has one and is very happy with it. I'm thinking to keep gambling on fixing anything that happens to my ol Jeep rather than buy any new car. I'll keep looking casually but all the new cars seem like crap. Although Ford is looking better and better than it use to.

[FalconAngel]

Is the Prius built with an electronic throttle control? I thought that was still mechanical.

On the news, a couple of weeks ago, they did a piece on the fix for the problem and it was an all mechanical fix. No electronics in the fix.

The electronics is only for systems monitoring, engine monitoring and basic engine operation, not throttle control.

[Realist]

Toyota is in the spotlight, right now, but when you consider the millions of them on the road, the amount of problems are insignificant....unless it's you, who's got trouble! They will fix these problems, I'm sure..they can't stand bad publicity.

I'm on my 5th "Yota" . It's a '96 Tacoma SWB, with 90,000 miles. My last one was a RAV4, that went nearly 200,000 trouble-free miles. I've had 3 Corollas, too. One of them was traded in at 221,000 miles. Tires, brakes, timing belts on the older ones, oil and filters, and tires, has been the only expenses I've had. None of them have ever left me on the road, broke down.

Jeeps: The 4.0 liter Jeeps have historically been some of the most dependable engines ever built in this country. I've never owned one, but maintained one for a brother in law. It actually lasted for over 250,000 miles, with no failures. The same can't be said for the rest of the vehicle, but the engine's the heart, isn't it? There's many of the older ones still on the roads in Florida and almost any drivers you talk to are satisfied with them.

I know..this is a bisexual site, but some of us are car-lovers, too.

[darkeyes]

Toyota is in the spotlight, right now, but when you consider the millions of them on the road, the amount of problems are insignificant....unless it's you, who's got trouble! They will fix these problems, I'm sure..they can't stand bad publicity.

I'm on my 5th "Yota" . It's a '96 Tacoma SWB, with 90,000 miles. My last one was a RAV4, that went nearly 200,000 trouble-free miles. I've had 3 Corollas, too. One of them was traded in at 221,000 miles. Tires, brakes, timing belts on the older ones, oil and filters, and tires, has been the only expenses I've had. None of them have ever left me on the road, broke down.

Jeeps: The 4.0 liter Jeeps have historically been some of the most dependable engines ever built in this country. I've never owned one, but maintained one for a brother in law. It actually lasted for over 250,000 miles, with no failures. The same can't be said for the rest of the vehicle, but the engine's the heart, isn't it? There's many of the older ones still on the roads in Florida and almost any drivers you talk to are satisfied with them.

I know..this is a bisexual site, but some of us are car-lovers, too.

..scuse me realist me leffly.. isn the numba cars they havin 2 fix runnin in the millions now?? ..an we don yet kno how many peeps r gonna sue cosa accidents do we?? Cars r a means 2 an end ofr us..but we do like em 2 work an b safe.

[thatcher29]

I think that Toyota is only making it worse on themselves. It's pretty obvious that there's some issues somewhere in the electronics. Cars are very complex now with as many as 30 microcontrollers and all this processing power is networked together, much like the computers in your home or office. Yes, there's built-in protections but all it takes is some bad software code in one microcontroller's software to cause the system to go nuts.

By the way, Steve Jobs of Apple owns over half a dozen Prius's and he definitely thinks it's in the electronics. He claims he was able to duplicate the problem. I think the real issue is that Toyota doesn't want to deal with the electronics because the fix will be be much more expensive than a floor mat or a pedal.

[12voltman59]

I have no doubt myself---I think that the problems Toyota is experiencing with their vehicles has to be based in the computer systems that handle throttling and braking.

Computers handle pretty much every function in modern automoblies.

They say the average car made now has more computing power than the about to be retired space shuttles do!!!

Think of what cars have now--not only are things liike engine timing and such controlled by computers, computers control the anti-lock braking systems, traction control, steering. Many have collision warning and or avoidance systems, navigation systems, HD terrestial and satelite stereos, Telematic systems like GM's OnStar, they all have "black boxes" now that gather all sorts of data from engine conditions to vehicle speed, braking, etc.

Some cars now have systems that can tell if you are falling asleep and they sound an alarm to wake you up; more and more are offering up night vision-"heads up displays" so you can see what is ahead of you in the dark and in inclement conditions. Many can now be put in a mode so they parallel park themselves.

Some car makers now offer internet connections for their cars.

http://www.htlounge.net/art/10143/chevrolet-cars-with-3g-internet-connection.html

Computers control things like the door locking systems, power windows, cruise control, automatic climate control---you pretty much name it and a computer does it now.

More and more cars are going to "fly by wire" where things like steering, transmission and braking are no longer at all mechanical---but receive a signal as you do those things that is sent to the respective system and it is electronically done.

No doubt----today's cars sure aren't like the ones many of us knew when we were young--and they are only going to be getting more "wired" as time goes on.

[Realist]

I guess I should say that all of my experiences have been with the older, less complicated, Toyotas. None of them even had ABS brakes. I can only discuss my own experiences regarding them, which has been all positive. I'm gonna drive my little '96 pickup until the wheels fall off of it, which I hope will be a long, long time!

Fran,

There's no doubt that there's a problem with some of these newer cars, but I think some of the accidents may have been attributed to driver error and ineptness. Accidents caused by the engines running away can be easily remedied, by slipping the gear shift into neutral, pulling safely off the road and stopping, then turning your engine off. I know some people turn to jello in panic situations, but a calm head will often avert accidents. The driver should take, at least, partial responsibility.

[ironwood]

This is for those who think it is driver era.One of the people with a car that accelerated out of control was a 25 year vetern of the California Highway Patrol (CHP).I am sure in his 25 yrs of on the job training and the countless hours of training they go threw he had learned not to panic.He did everything that was suggested as with putting it in neutral and shuting of the engine and none worked.What did happen was he smashed into a bridge abuttment and he and 3 others where killed.It is about time the companies making millions off of the consumers start to accept responsibility for there actions.This to me is a matter of money over human life .When is anough corparate gread enough .How many more have to suffer or worse die before this is solved.

[12voltman59]

It is obvious in the case where the CHiPs officer used his car to stop the Prius--the driver was doing all he could do to stop the car to no effect.

The trooper saw the Prius' breaklights going and could smell the brakes burning and see them smoking---the attempts to shut the car off failed--the Prius like lots of new cars, does not shut off with the key--it has a push button engine start/kill button--the key would only lock the steering column--not a good thing going 90+ mph.

The start/stop button apparently did not work and that is purely a software glitch since that is electronically controlled.

As Ironwood said---the situation where the off duty CHiP officer and family got killed--you can be sure that man knew how to handle vehicles---like most state highway patrols----California troopers get all kinds of advanced driving training and with the guy's time of the job--he had loads of skill far beyond the average Joe or Jane--if that man could not get a car under control--hardly anyone can, maybe a NASCAR, INDY or Formula I racer or a long time over the road trucker could---but the average driver wouldn't have a chance.

While the overall number of these cases of problems is rather small in the statisical sense--their numbers and frequency do seem to be increasing--and even if the problem "only" crops up in say one out of several hundred thousand cars---if its your car or that of a loved one or you are on the road when a car goes beserk like that---that is one car too many that is doing that!!!

Toyota had better get its stuff together. I always liked Toyota cars--but I would sure be leery of them and if I were in the market for a car now--would not even consider them at this point since there are other great car makers out there--like Honda, Nissan, Mazda, VW and now Hyundai and Kia and I would surely consider a Ford Fusion or a Chevy Malibu as well if I were looking at a mid-sized class of car.

[elian]

When I heard that their "fix" was to put a shim under the gas pedal I smacked my head into the desk repeatedly.

They don't have appropriate redundency in the gas pedal sensors, yes - it's drive by wire - I guess almost all cars are these days. Also there isn't appropriate priority in the programming for when you press the brake vs. the gas pedal. I've heard that the prius tries to optimize the energy wasted by pressing on the brakes to help charge the battery..supposedly takes a second for the brakes to kick in.

What I can't figure out with the CHP incident is why the guy didn't hold in the button to turn the engine off - even if it takes a few seconds for that to happen it may have helped save his life.

[kidder]

There have been 17,000 complaints about uncontroled acceleration since 2000, covering all most all of the car makers.

[al1623]

OK -- not that I'm clearing Toyota here, but is there anyone here who thinks the California guy might be faking it? Either for the attention or maybe paving the way for a nice lawsuit?

And, as long as I'm on the subject, is there anyone here who thinks it's strange that when someone's car goes out of control, they reach for their cell phone? Sorry, but if my truck suddenly accelerated and I felt out of control, the last thing I'd think of is dialing someone -- I'd get the stupid vehicle stopped first.

[12voltman59]

OK -- not that I'm clearing Toyota here, but is there anyone here who thinks the California guy might be faking it? Either for the attention or maybe paving the way for a nice lawsuit?

And, as long as I'm on the subject, is there anyone here who thinks it's strange that when someone's car goes out of control, they reach for their cell phone? Sorry, but if my truck suddenly accelerated and I felt out of control, the last thing I'd think of is dialing someone -- I'd get the stupid vehicle stopped first.

That man has a record as a "solid citizen"--he was a successful real estate broker and hell--he had one of the best witnesses possible--a long time California Highway Patrol officer. I don't see any reason he would do such a thing----and if at all possible--I would try to call someone too--it was obviously a good call on his part and I doubt that if he had his foot on the brake pedal like the CHiP officer said he did, with smoking brakes and all--the way a Prius works----he would not be able to get the throttle working that would take him up to 90 plus MPH!!

Maybe if he was a stunt person, with a crew of people who knew what they were doing----and doing some overriding of systems and they were setting the situation up with hours of preparation----you might be able to pull such a thing off--- its hardly likely an average sort of driver just running down the interstate would be able to do such a thing.

With the incident that took place in New York state but a few hours later after the California incident---the woman merely started the car, put the thing in gear and off it went!!!! Thankfully--it didn't have much space to pick up much speed and hit something the bashed the car and killed the engine.

I am a bit confused about the California incident--in the article I linked to, it said the driver, following the instructions of the officer, was able to shut that Prius off---but a televised report I had seen---it was reported the car did not shut off--in fact that reporter said he got within a fairly close distance to the stopped cars and could still hear the engine running, running at high speed--so I don't know what is the real deal with that.

The article in that the link above goes to---does say there wasn't much left of the Prius' brakes!!

[darkeyes]

Wot Kate an me wonts 2 kno.. is 'er Toyota sewin machine safe? :eek:

[GuyInDs]

Maybe I am missing something, tell me if I am wrong. Why not just put the shifter in N for NEUTRAL, not PARK, but NEUTRAL? Anyway, we will probably be seeing more problems with cars because of the computer systems are being used to handle more and more of their basic functions. Fewer and fewer cars have a mechanical throttle linkage, some are and have been experimenting with steering systems with no mechanical connection to the driver. I like old stuff, who cares if it cost u 1 or 2K a year to fix a problem, still cheaper than a year of car notes.;)

Part Time Motor Head

[cddm50]

Originally Posted by FalconAngel

Is the Prius built with an electronic throttle control? I thought that was still mechanical.

On the news, a couple of weeks ago, they did a piece on the fix for the problem and it was an all mechanical fix. No electronics in the fix.

The electronics is only for systems monitoring, engine monitoring and basic engine operation, not throttle control.

Toyota is "claiming" it is mechanical but drivers are now stating that even after the fix their cars are still accelerating.

those computers are not just monitoring any more. Cars dating back to early 2000's have computer controlled fuel injectors. There are no more "carburators" like you see in an earlier model. It is "drive by wire". Your gas pedal is really controlling the computer and asking it to control the fuel injectors. Computers also retard the timing of the engine, control emissions, regulate the cooling, maintain the charging system, etc. Some can even act like a black box and store the last minute or two of the car's performance when it was last running. You get in a wreck, they may be able to find out how fast you were going prior to crashing.

Brian Ross of ABC is doing ongoing stories on this problem. The one video below shows how a professor was able to recreate the problem in a toyota by shorting out some external wiring around some sensors and cause the car to speed up out of control and still show the computer passing all its diagnostic tests like nothing is wrong.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/test-driving-toyota-9917789

I think either these devices/sensors are defective, or the wiring is getting corroded and shorts out or even more serious, it is bad code in these computers and some of the designed safety features are not working properly.

Some experts are wondering why Toyota doesn't have a braking failsafe built into the computer, where when one steps on the brakes for x period of time it should stop sending an acceleration command to the fuel injectors.


Originally Posted by al1623. Sorry, but if my truck suddenly accelerated and I felt out of control, the last thing I'd think of is dialing someone -- I'd get the stupid vehicle stopped first.

Yeah well I think most people begin to panic and would not even think to throw their car into neutral or turn off the ignition right away. They are probably a bit in shock over the situation. And maybe the acceleration happens for a brief moment while in close quarters with other cars or pedestrians. Catches the driver off guard and they lose control. you don't have time to think to do the correct action. First instinct is you stomp on the brakes. Yeah Brakes stop a car right? Not if the car's engine is overpowering the brakes.

When I first heard about the recall I knew it was going to be electrical. And for Toyota to claim it was a mat jamming under the pedal or that the pedal's mechanics were wrong, I just groaned.

There will be a class action suit about this soon enough.

[thatcher29]

Maybe I am missing something, tell me if I am wrong. Why not just put the shifter in N for NEUTRAL, not PARK, but NEUTRAL?
Part Time Motor Head

You're assuming that there's a mechanical linkage to the transmission. Newer automatic transmissions are all shift-by-wire in an effort to boost fuel economy.

[GuyInDs]

I know most newer cars have no mechanical linkage, simply pointing out another possible option. My point is that if it is [U]only[U] the throttle system they are having a problems with, putting the shifter in NEUTRAL should work without the danger of turning off the engine and causing a loss of power steering function and reducing brake boost to the system. If it doesn't then Toyota definetely has a complete computer or software problem. Have a great day;)

[JP1986UM]

I was holding out judgement on this until I heard the investigation stuff come out.

This guy was looking for a payday. I had this feelin in me bones!!

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/13/pattern-wear-runaway-prius-brakes-raises-questions/


A federal safety investigation of the Toyota Prius that was involved in a dramatic incident on a California highway last week found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event, three people familiar with the investigation told the Wall Street Journal.

On Monday James Sikes, 61 years old, called 911 and told the operator his blue 2008 Toyota Prius had sped up to more than 90 miles per hour on its own on Interstate 8 near San Diego. He eventually brought the vehicle to a stop after a California Highway patrolman pulled alongside Sikes and offered help.

During and after the incident, Sikes said he was using heavy pressure on his brake pedal at high speeds.

But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said.

Please remember people, we are the Land of Lawsuits without cause. everyone and I mean everyone is looking for their lottery payout. At someone else's expense.

[12voltman59]

Well--egg on my face--looks like the guy driving the Prius in Cali had some real money troubles and there are now some major holes in his story---as far as his money troubles are concerned--he was bankrupt-and worse-he was totally busted--in fact its being reported that the car in question was due to repoed.

I still wonder how he might have run a scam if he did that---but for those investigating the situation--if he could fake it--that might actually help in finding out just what is going on with those cars in real cases.

[Doggiestyle]

Ya know,,,,, I can now see (in my minds-eye) how I may be able to get out of a speeding ticket. :rolleyes: ...... Yep, I can see it now. All I gotta do is to speed up and then tell the cop "the damm thing just went haywire on me". I mean than "honest officer, I was going along and all the sudden the car started speeding up",,,,,,,what to do??? I was scared to death... :yikes2:
OUESTION??? Do you think that the cop will believe me? I mean how would he know what the car was, or wasn't doing? I wonder if it would work?

Just me a wondering again. :bigrin: Your friend, :doggie: