P***ed Off!

[darkeyes]

All of this business about made-up 'medical' reasons to be against circumcision or all of this nonsense about how it affects sexual satisfaction is just a smokescreen for the reaal reaason- prejudice. Circumcision would be as noncontroversial as having your ears pierced but for the fact that it is associated in people's minds with Jews (and in Europe, with Muslims as well).
I am pretty thick skinned.. but I take grievous offence to this stupid little post in the Circumcision thread made by a stupid little man. It is naught but a bigoted statement made by someone who neither understands or seems to accept that because people take a position on something does not necessarily make them what Jamie is accusing them of being..racist... religiously intolerant.

For weeks now I have sat and tried to post coherently and logically in a number of threads.. I have watched as people have gotten themselves sucked in to personal attacks on each other and have show the sort of tolerance for differing viewpoints of which Nazis would be proud. There has been no meeting of minds, but there has been what I would call good old fashioned hatred thrown about.. I do not accuse all posters of this but those who have followed the threads know exactly who I am talking about. I have watched helplessly while people I like and of whom I am extremely fond have been tearing each other to shreds..

I am not perfect and it is quite possible, even likely that some things I have said have inflamed the situation, but throughout these threads I have tried never to get personal and never to flame people. Ideas are important to me, and personal truth and integrity. Now I find some little upstart calling ME a fucking racist, and calling ME religously intolerant. Not just me but the millions who like me have a position on the particular issue in question which is not born out of race or religious conviction, but out of love and concern for the welfare and future well being of children. Jamie does not seem to understand or accept that to take a position on such an issue as circumcision does not necessarily make anyone racist or religiously intolerant. Most, certainly in Europe dont even allow the religious aspect to enter their mind, and most I suspect would not interfere, rightly or wrongly, in the continuance of religious circumcision. In fact if Jamie thinks his post through, he has arguably shown himself to be racist by singling out Europeans over the Islamic bit. No one in the US is anti islamic? Foolish man.

The threads to which I refer have been highjacked and ruined by intolerance.. by troll and non troll alike.. but just who has been intolerant I leave readers to decide. The bitterness to which those threads degenerated are a disgrace to us all, and I accept as I must my own share of blame for allowing it to occur and my part in its encouragement.

I love the cut and thrust of honest debate.. but increasingly we are seeing less and less of it... I am angry and enraged at the way things have gone and am convinced that unless people sit down take a breath and think about what they are doing and who they are debating with things will only get worse..

I am withdrawing from debates of any kind. I have no intention of lowering myself to level of some of these selfish bastards who care not about truth or integrity but care only for destroying what was and can still be a site which bisexual people can truly enjoy, have a laugh, share experience, give advice and seriously debate issues.

A stupid and crass little comment like the one Jamie posted was the last straw. IF and when you get your house in order I may begin to contribute again. I have tried to do so to the best of my ability and as honestly as I can. Now it all seems so futile. Now some little oily little gett who should know better calls me and people like me something I and they patently are not.

From now on if and when I contribute it may be to the funnies or wish someone a happy birthday.. never to any issue worth a fuck and means anything.. Enjoy!

[eddy10]

Just ignore the dumb folks and keep on posting your thoughts as they occur to you.
Please, do not starve those of us that hunger for knowledge and meaningful debate.

[mikey3000]

I am not perfect and it is quite possible, even likely that some things I have said have inflamed the situation, but throughout these threads I have tried never to get personal and never to flame people.

Aww, Hon, you sure did. You upset a lot of people with your patronizing, belittling tactics , me included, by insisting that I don't know any better. Fran, I know my body and how I feel about it. How dare you try to tell me otherwise? Now when someone uses your tactics right back at you, you get supremely offended. At least no one attacked your parenting skills and insulted your children by calling them mutants. Cause basically that's what you did, over and over again. Shameful behaviour. You tried to shame parents into your way of view, and using some one's children is inexcusable.

Maybe it is a good decision to stick only to posting funny stuff for a while. Hopefully time will heal those wounds inflicted on these poor parents who only have the purest of intentions for their beloved children. The love between a parent and child is sacred and not to be used as a tool to sway an agenda.

[still_shy]

Sweetheart, as much as I want to try to talk you out of this, as I will miss your intelligent, thought provoking and sometimes infuriating comments...as much as I want to...I can't with good conscience because it's the exact same reasons that keep me from posting. It's what has driven me from starting the threads I've wanted to and what will keep me lurking around the edges of this site until things settle down or I finally get fed up and leave. Over the last few months, I've seen this place go from a loving caring site to one full of anger and bitterness. It disappoints me greatly to think about those we have already lost and those we will continue to lose. Just please don't forget about those who care about you Francis :)

[tenni]

Ok...sweetie...hun...

Take a break. I believe that we are a bit alike in the sense of enjoying a good debate. We all have opinions. Your opinions are fairly strong but I think that generally you present your views well. I may have missed you challenging some parenting methods about others in the translation from franspeak:bigrin:

One small thing though...if you will give me forgiveness. I believe that you are referring to bigotry rather than racism. Both Judiaism and Islam are religions and not races nor ethnics...although one might argue about the Jews...they really are not one ethnicity.

I thought that the question of circumcision and connecting it to Judiasm and Islam as well as continental custom may have a point. Whether it is sub conscious or not is for people to consider. However, some opponents may not be Jewish, Muslim or North American.

I hope to read your thoughts again sooner than later.

[Doggiestyle]

Well Ms. Dark-Eyes, you may consider yourself "thick skinned" but evidently not thick enough skinned, HUH?

Face it my dear, this site goes all around the world!!! And that should include things like attitude, dispositions, trains of thought, ETC. I guess that you better get used to it.

As far as the circumcision thing goes,,,, I got better things to do than to stick my pecker into an electric pencil sharpener.... :yikes2:

I just had to say that!!! Your friend, :doggie:

[Hephaestion]

Darkeyes
"...............I am withdrawing from debates of any kind........ "

Now that would be a shame. So I am asking you to reconsider that statement. Dammit woman - when you are in fiery mode I just worship you!

Yer (pseudo) sassinak friend down south.

H.

[IanBorthwick]

From now on if and when I contribute it may be to the funnies or wish someone a happy birthday.. never to any issue worth a fuck and means anything.. Enjoy!

No, I am sorry, but she's right. I've been verbally jabbed into corners here for stating an opinion or link and it's made me less likely do anything BUT lurk and read the comics. She is much thicker skinned than I, as I have seen over the years.

You'd all do well to heed what she says because there are many of us that came here fresh from hiding and a mean and nasty environment makes us say,"You know what? I get this fucking shit even in hiding. Why in the hell do I need to come to someplace that is supposed to be supportive to have my head ripped off and someone sitting on my open neck like it's a commode?"

The trolls have some excuse, they are a waste of skin. But people who pretend tolerance to slide in and stab people in the back or even those who take what's written, read between the lines and then sink daggers into the gaps in your ribs have none.

Flat out I'll tell you, I don't trust this board and while I am at it I tell you I know many of you are looking to vent your spleen here on "like minded" folks also. This is not a scathing review of all of you here, but it's sad. DAMN sad that I say "All of you" and not all of us. Trying to be a part of this community became ludicrous because the elites here turn on and bash those they think they can get away with.

And those of you that don't attack only stand up for a few. Whether it's sexist jokes(male or effing female, idc), nasty political smegma(and you conservatives are really working my nerve to a bloody mass), to the religiously zealous, and not lastly the ones just out to pick a bone with anyone doing what they don't approve of from Polyamory to Paganism.

It's got to end sometime is what I keep telling myself. But watching and waiting I see it's not going to end any time. The speed is picking up and I'm seriously frightened we're watching this board go up in flames and rocket southward.

I was in chat a few nights ago and someone asked me what I expected out of this site, as if what's happening now is normal, rational and good. Here's the list he ignored.

When I came here I expected to find a comforting place to find like minded
as well as like trodden on people. From that I hoped to:

1) Be accepted as I am, for who I am.

2) Be around a supportive people.

3) Not to be attacked or feel as though I am someway under attack for being different.

Now, isn't it horrible I have never once felt that it was that way here?

[darkeyes]

Aww, Hon, you sure did. You upset a lot of people with your patronizing, belittling tactics , me included, by insisting that I don't know any better. Fran, I know my body and how I feel about it. How dare you try to tell me otherwise? Now when someone uses your tactics right back at you, you get supremely offended. At least no one attacked your parenting skills and insulted your children by calling them mutants. Cause basically that's what you did, over and over again. Shameful behaviour. You tried to shame parents into your way of view, and using some one's children is inexcusable.

Maybe it is a good decision to stick only to posting funny stuff for a while. Hopefully time will heal those wounds inflicted on these poor parents who only have the purest of intentions for their beloved children. The love between a parent and child is sacred and not to be used as a tool to sway an agenda.

Mikey.. this is not a contribution to debate. I have not said I will stop contributing forever. Why I have taken this action is not because I have taken my toys away out of a huff.. but as a protest against what I see as an undercurrent of nastiness which has increasingly pervaded forums. I am an emotional girl and I can no longer sit back and try and debate rationally with those who simply have no intention of listening or even considering that times have moved on. Because of my occasional flurries of temper I find it better to withdraw from debate before my exasperastion and frustration makes me say something I will seriously regret. I am very close to that now.

I am sorry if you find what I say patronising because in the main I do not believe that to be the case. Occasionally I have made a patronising comment and that is down to frustration because all some people wish to do is attack often without any serious rationale. My arguments at least usually have a rationale behind them.

This protest is not because I cant cope with the debates. It is because of how the debates are being conducted and sheer nastiness of it all. I dont mind nastiness in debate, but not when it is destroying the spirit and integrity of the site. I have a real life to lead as well as a cyber life. My real life is much more important than this place will ever be, but this place has meant and still means a lot to me.

I have observed increasingly how people simply bait each other, threaten each other and have no respect whatever for each other. Of course not everyone acts in this way but it has increasingly become the case, and we have let it. Well I can think of no way in which I can change the tenor of debate all by myself (sorry allbi..) and it doesnt matter how often people are warned how to deal with trolls and troll like behavious everyone gets fired up and goes in with all guns blazing. If we are ever to return to proper debating, and proper respect for the opinions of thers then every single one of us will have to change how they debate. They will also have to realise when a debate has run its course and when to move on.

So I retreat from participation in debate as a protest against what I see as some people ruining a place I have learned to love. I am not leaving the site for there are far too many people I care for. I am simply refusing to get involved in the morass of hatred, bitterness and contempt. I could continue debating.. but to what purpose? In the present climate.. nonewhatsoever. I hope it is only a temporary protest. But it is only as temporary as this contemptible warfare continues.

Jamie's comment was the last straw and has moved me to do something which has been in my mind for several months. I found that a disgraceful and appalling comment for which he should be positively ashamed.. so for now, Fran stays quiet and lets u all tear lumps off each other and do it to the merriment of those who wish gay, bisexual an dtransgendered people naught but harm... I wont play the game, and while I regret having to act this way, I make no apologies for it..

This is also my last comment on the issue.. say and do what you will I have work to do and a life to lead.. see you all in the funnies..:)

[rissababynta]

Mikey.. this is not a contribution to debate. I have not said I will stop contributing forever. Why I have taken this action is not because I have taken my toys away out of a huff.. but as a protest against what I see as an undercurrent of nastiness which has increasingly pervaded forums. I am an emotional girl and I can no longer sit back and try and debate rationally with those who simply have no intention of listening or even considering that times have moved on. Because of my occasional flurries of temper I find it better to withdraw from debate before my exasperastion and frustration makes me say something I will seriously regret. I am very close to that now.

I am sorry if you find what I say patronising because in the main I do not believe that to be the case. Occasionally I have made a patronising comment and that is down to frustration because all some people wish to do is attack often without any serious rationale. My arguments at least usually have a rationale behind them.

This protest is not because I cant cope with the debates. It is because of how the debates are being conducted and sheer nastiness of it all. I dont mind nastiness in debate, but not when it is destroying the spirit and integrity of the site. I have a real life to lead as well as a cyber life. My real life is much more important than this place will ever be, but this place has meant and still means a lot to me.

I have observed increasingly how people simply bait each other, threaten each other and have no respect whatever for each other. Of course not everyone acts in this way but it has increasingly become the case, and we have let it. Well I can think of no way in which I can change the tenor of debate all by myself (sorry allbi..) and it doesnt matter how often people are warned how to deal with trolls and troll like behavious everyone gets fired up and goes in with all guns blazing. If we are ever to return to proper debating, and proper respect for the opinions of thers then every single one of us will have to change how they debate. They will also have to realise when a debate has run its course and when to move on.

So I retreat from participation in debate as a protest against what I see as some people ruining a place I have learned to love. I am not leaving the site for there are far too many people I care for. I am simply refusing to get involved in the morass of hatred, bitterness and contempt. I could continue debating.. but to what purpose? In the present climate.. nonewhatsoever. I hope it is only a temporary protest. But it is only as temporary as this contemptible warfare continues.

Jamie's comment was the last straw and has moved me to do something which has been in my mind for several months. I found that a disgraceful and appalling comment for which he should be positively ashamed.. so for now, Fran stays quiet and lets u all tear lumps off each other and do it to the merriment of those who wish gay, bisexual an dtransgendered people naught but harm... I wont play the game, and while I regret having to act this way, I make no apologies for it..

This is also my last comment on the issue.. say and do what you will I have work to do and a life to lead.. see you all in the funnies..:)

Hey, ya know what, you have to do what you feel is best for you hon. If you think it would be better to stay away from certain threads for a while, then no matter what anyone else says, that is what you should do. I for one have been wanting to leave the site all together for some time now to give myself a break, but I think in the end I'm just going to follow your lead and simply stay away from the horse shit.

[Realist]

Now, you're learning!

[tenni]

There seems to be a wad of names and posts missing from two of the more controversial threads today. They have more than their posts vanished but any sign of the poster as well? I thought just their posts were removed by Drew and the name stayed. Oh well.

I think that there is still some difficulty to determine the difference between a new comer and what seems to be a few trolls. There seemed to be quite a few in the past week or so. Yes, the multi name no space people but a few others. Darkeyes even encouraged people not to put a troll label on to one poster and to give the person a chance. I think that is a good approach. However,even I am beginning to sense something about the text and themes of posters that seem to post thoughts that seem contrary to many. I still wonder if we can not have differing views and not be called a troll?

I will also post that darkeyes has a rather successful way about diffusing some. (including myself) She does it well. Maybe, darkeyes is our canary in the coal mine. If she can not diffuse a poster to tone it down might they be a troll?...:bigrin: I personally still love a good debate. I know some of you just want peace and love here. Nurture nurture. Hug Hug. Maybe it is just those with Irish and Scottish genes that love a good tongue wag....lol

[chook]

Personally myself I just love a mass debate :smilies15




Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Chookie..am shocked atya!! Mucky sod!!! :eek: Wud nev dream a callin ya a w****r.. jus cosya dus dusn mean ya is..:tong:;):bigrin: