Courted by a Shadow Lover

[TwylaTwobits]

Been thinking a lot about death lately for some reason, found this song that pretty much speaks of the way death courts us as a lover every day with promises of relief from depression and loneliness.


By Mercedes Lackey


Shadow-Lover, never seen by day,
Only deep in dreams do you appear
Wisdom tells me I should turn away,
Love of mist and shadows, all unclear-
Nothing can I hold of you but thought
Shadow-Lover mist and twilight wrought.

Shadow-Lover, comfort me in pain.
Love, although I never see you face,
All who'd have me fear you speak in vain-
Never would I shrink from your embrace
Shadow-Lover, gentle is your hand
Never could another understand.

Shadow-Lover, soothe me when I mourn
Mourn for all who left me here alone,
When my grief is too much to be borne,
When my burdens crushing-great have grown,
Shadow-Lover, I cannot forget-
Help me bear the burdens I have yet.

Shadow-Lover, you alone can know
How I long to reach a point of peace
How I fade with weariness and woe
How I long for you to bring release.
Shadow-Lover, court me in my dreams
Bring the peace that suffering redeems.

Shadow-Lover, from the Shadows made,
Lead me into Shadows once again.
Where you lead I cannot be afraid,
For with you I shall come home again-
In your arms I shall not fear the night.
Shadow-Lover, lead me into light.

[MarieDelta]

Sorry if you are struggling at the moment.

*hugs*

I know what that is like.

[TwylaTwobits]

thanks Marie, not really trouble per se, just thinking too much :)

[IanBorthwick]

Mercedes Lackey, The Shadow Lover from the Magic series about Vanyel Ashkevron. It's a pseudonym for Death being merciful and leading us back to lost ones in the afterlife, in no uncertain terms. Why in the world are you contemplating death?

[TwylaTwobits]

Because Ian, in thinking about life you have to think about death. I have an aunt who could go any day now, I have several people around me not to mention just reading the news that make me think of death and life and how fragile the line is between.

By the way.. Last Herald Mage was an awesome series and won Mercedes Lackey an award for the use of a male homosexual lead character.

[MarieDelta]

Here's another good song

"Man In The Long Black Coat" - Bob Dylan(performed by Joan Osborne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV53gSbFFr4))

Crickets are chirpin' the water is high
There's a soft cotton dress on the line hangin' dry
Window wide open African trees
Bent over backwards from a hurricane breeze
Not a word of goodbye not even a note
She gone with the man in the long black coat.

Somebody seen him hangin' around
As the old dance hall on the outskirts of town
He looked into her eyes when she stopped him to ask
If he wanted to dance he had a face like a mask
Somebody said from the bible he'd quote
There was dust on the man in the long black coat.

Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
It ain't easy to swallow it sticks in the throat
She gave her heart to the man in the long black coat.

There are no mistakes in life some people say
It is true sometimes you can see it that way
But people don't live or die people just float
She went with the man in the long black coat.

There's smoke on the water it's been there since June
Tree trunks unprooted beneath the high crescent moon
Feel the pulse and vibration and the rumbling force
Somebody is out there beating on a dead horse
She never said nothing there was nothing she wrote
She gone with the man in the long black coat.

[12voltman59]

I think it is only natural and not necessarily a bad thing to think about death---one fact of life----"no one gets out of here alive" as it has been said.

Since people are sharing song lyrics about songs relating to death---I share one I know--it is an "old timey" song that comes from the mountains of Appalachia--but its orgins are traced back to the highlands of Scotland with it going way back in time.

This song was featured in the movie and soundtrack of "O' Brother, Where Art Thou?"

It was called "Conversation with Death" in the old mountain music--but Ralph Stanley who has performed it for years--called it "O Death" and that is what they called it on the movie soundtrack.

It might be a bit morbid a song--but I love Dr. Stanely's acapella singing of this song, in his haunting, raspy singing style.

O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
Well what is this that I can't see
With ice cold hands takin' hold of me
Well I am death, none can excel
I'll open the door to heaven or hell
Whoa, death someone would pray
Could you wait to call me another day
The children prayed, the preacher preached
Time and mercy is out of your reach
I'll fix your feet til you cant walk
I'll lock your jaw til you cant talk
I'll close your eyes so you can't see
This very air, come and go with me
I'm death I come to take the soul
Leave the body and leave it cold
To draw up the flesh off of the frame
Dirt and worm both have a claim
O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
My mother came to my bed
Placed a cold towel upon my head
My head is warm my feet are cold
Death is a-movin upon my soul
Oh, death how you're treatin' me
You've close my eyes so I can't see
Well you're hurtin' my body
You make me cold
You run my life right outta my soul
Oh death please consider my age
Please don't take me at this stage
My wealth is all at your command
If you will move your icy hand
Oh the young, the rich or poor
Hunger like me you know
No wealth, no ruin, no silver no gold
Nothing satisfies me but your soul
O, death
O, death
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year

a good video of him singing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xmRWj7gJEU

[TwylaTwobits]

Another song....
Long Black Train as sung by Josh Turner

There's a long black train,
Comin' down the line,
Feedin' off the souls that are lost and cryin',
Rails of sin, only evil remains
Watch out brother for that Long Black Train

Look to the heavens
You can look to the skies
You can find redemption
Staring back into your eyes
There is protection and there's
Peace the same, burnin' your ticket for that
Long Black Train

'Cause there's vict'ry in the Lord I say,
Vict'ry in the lord,
Cling to the Father and His holy name,
And don't go ridin' on that Long Black Train

There's an engineer on that Long Black Train,
Makin' you wonder if the ride is worth the pain,
He's just a waiting on your heart to say
Let me ride on that Long Black Train,

But you know there's vict'ry in the Lord I say,
Vict'ry in the Lord,
Cling to the Father and His holy name,
And dont go ridin' on that Long Black Train

Well, I can hear the whistle from a mile away,
It sounds so good
But I must stay away
That train is a beauty, makin' everybody stare
But its only destination is the middle of nowhere,

But you know theres vict'ry in the Lord I say,
Vict'ry in the Lord,
Cling to the Father and His holy name,
And don't go ridin' on that Long Black Train

I said cling to the Father and His holy name
And dont go ridin' on that long black train
Yeah, watch out brother for that long black train
The Devil's a drivin' that long black train.

[IanBorthwick]

Because Ian, in thinking about life you have to think about death. I have an aunt who could go any day now, I have several people around me not to mention just reading the news that make me think of death and life and how fragile the line is between.

By the way.. Last Herald Mage was an awesome series and won Mercedes Lackey an award for the use of a male homosexual lead character.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, I was just curious.

I have suffered from many deaths recently, many of them beloved pets. But, and I am grateful for this, they returned. One especially left me bereft, and his death still floors me with tears. Was forced to watch him die before my eyes...wasting away from the poisons in the pet food. It hurt more than I can stand to remember. He returned recently, now looking differently but acting the same.

Never a day goes by I do not thank whomever took him so silently that brought him cease of his slow pain, that he could come back and love me once more. It's hard to let go of the feeling of loss though he's before me. It so much, we were that close. He was there for me when I needed him, knew my moods and my emotions, cuddled me, licked me and made me smile with his antics. He loved my son, watched us as best his crossed eyes could, and I believe was a guardian of mine.

When family died, I was always numb to their death except for my grandfather who loved me ever so much. He came to me in a dream the night he died to tell me how much he loved me so I would know he was gone....my mother would not let me visit him. I wept forever it seemed. But as time went by all that was left was the glow in my heart that he had wanted to come and tell me how much he cared, no matter what.

My days are filled with the longing to be worthy of that kind of love, and the hope I'll see him again...perhaps I do, in the eyes of my little boy.

[TwylaTwobits]

No worries, you asked I answered and never felt you came across harsh. I tend to think about a lot of things that most people don't but then I have situations in my life that, thankfully, most don't.

And yes our loved ones do come back to visit us sometimes in the next generation and sometimes just as a whisper in your ear and a small touch on your cheek as they check to see if you are still okay.

[void()]

"By Mercedes Lackey"

Lost me after that. I really don't bother reading their work much now. My wife read one of her books and passed it on. We both found all sorts of plotting flaws, continuity errors and such. That aside, onward to your message.

Folks say I've always been morbidly in Death's grasp since youth on. At four years I decided on cremation for disposal of my remains. Don't want to return.

Also, a bit of nick name I have makes use of being dead. My view of it comes from _The Art of War_. It says, paraphrasing: "Only those warriors who fight as if already dead may become great as they know no fear." And being American you called a gajin in Japan. The rough literal translation of that word means dog. The Myan oddly enough also have a myth about a ghost dog. Then, you've got a really literal reference to a dead dog in Sherlock Holmes. I think it was Scarlet Letter, although haven't been reading my Doyle of late, may be in error.

It is pretty obvious to see a dead dog. At least that is what the Holmes story related. "Why yes, of course the dog is dead. It is staring you right in the face is it not?" And yes, at times I do state the obvious with profoundness.

Once as we returned home, I saw a cow out of a pasture. I chimed up. "Cow's out." The wife swore I said "Daisies are blooming." She had no idea but figured a "Oh that's nice dear" was a safe bet. It was, although she suggested I add more excitement to a cow being out next time. Well, I better go shovel snow.

[AdamKadmon43]

You'll be dead soon enough.... Don't rush it.

[AdamKadmon43]

And yes our loved ones do come back to visit us sometimes in the next generation and sometimes just as a whisper in your ear and a small touch on your cheek as they check to see if you are still okay.

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

[IanBorthwick]

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

Why is it most of what I see from him are attacks on others beliefs and impatience when he wants his own understood?

[TwylaTwobits]

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

Adam, you believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I know to be real to me and to my Goddess. Now have a good day of Bible Burning and whatever else you nonbelievers do.

[Canticle]

Twyla and Ian

Sometimes those who profess to have no belief, actually have more than they would like to admit.....a kind of rebellion. I'm a Christian Spiritualist, though more the spiritualist, than the Christian these days and have experienced, first hand, what I call proof of things beyond our total understanding.....and yet I do understand. Sometimes those who profess disbelief understand and know too.

I could write pages...but will not, for fear of another shooting me down. If either of you want to talk more, you can always private message me.

[Canticle]

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

Yes, they are for real.....how about you??

[tenni]

Adam, you believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I know to be real to me and to my Goddess. Now have a good day of Bible Burning and whatever else you nonbelievers do.

This statement would have been very classy if the last sentence was left off.

Adam is correct when he writes that there is no point rushing death as it will come. I wonder if our minds may turn to thoughts of death more in the winter than the summer? I suppose that if we are forced to think of death due to someone near us dying that we may question why. The poem speak of being taken to loved ones and that may be a thought to comfort us when we get close to death.

To doubt and be a skeptic about dead loved ones returning in some form of reincarnation or visits of their spirit seems acceptable to me. However, I just don't think that I personally would dismiss it too quickly.

Sometimes, we are forced to think of our mortality if something happens to us. I think that it makes us appreciate life more than death at least for the period when an illness brings death closer than at other times. Still, I've heard and seen people as they approach the end of their life. At one point, we must all accept the inevitable. Until that day, party hardy...lol Or at least appreciate that you breath without assistance, enjoy your meals and company of others.

[MarieDelta]

Pepper - Butthole Surfers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGmP_q79-s0)

Marky got with Sharon
And Sharon got Cherese
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
Then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

(In Reverse:
I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes)

Another Mikey took a knife
While arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death
He caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever-present
Football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Pauly caught a bullet
But it only hit his leg
Well it should have been a better shot
And got him in the head
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Adam just because you are emotionally and spiritually constipated, it doesnt mean that the rest of us are.

Various cultures all over the world have their own personal beliefs, and the belief in God, Goddess, and the Spirits are held by many of us, and we do believe that the energies(Spirits) of those loved ones that have walked the Path Do come to us to give us a bit of reassurance, confidance, and guidance now and then. Just because you dont believe in something, dont knock another person's belief system whether it be religious or Spiritual.
Go on back under the rock, and have a cookie.
Cat

[Canticle]

This statement would have been very classy if the last sentence was left off.

Adam is correct when he writes that there is no point rushing death as it will come. I wonder if our minds may turn to thoughts of death more in the winter than the summer? I suppose that if we are forced to think of death due to someone near us dying that we may question why. The poem speak of being taken to loved ones and that may be a thought to comfort us when we get close to death.

To doubt and be a skeptic about dead loved ones returning in some form of reincarnation or visits of their spirit seems acceptable to me. However, I just don't think that I personally would dismiss it too quickly.

Sometimes, we are forced to think of our mortality if something happens to us. I think that it makes us appreciate life more than death at least for the period when an illness brings death closer than at other times. Still, I've heard and seen people as they approach the end of their life. At one point, we must all accept the inevitable. Until that day, party hardy...lol Or at least appreciate that you breath without assistance, enjoy your meals and company of others.

Sometimes, the combined workings of another creature's existence and what might be meant, can become a little tiresome for others....get under the skin. I think that the last sentence of Twyla's post expresses that as she, perhaps sees (and she may correct me, if I am wrong), as others will no doubt have done, the possible beginnings, of another excuse, for one person's loathing of religion, to be spewed forth.

I'm a Spiritualist and a very basic one, not into what outsiders might call...''mumbo jumbo''.... The people who are ''the church''...the congregation, are very normal people, from all walks of life, but with one core belief. I say core, because, as with any belief, people see things differently.

That core belief does unite us....but more than that...it is our respect for the personal belief, or disbelief, which other individuals may have, which allows people from other belief systems, to know, that whatever they arrive at our church 'as'...or 'with'....they will leave 'as' or 'with.'

No preaching, no trying to convert. If a visit to the church gives you a cup of tea and a biscuit, maybe some home made cake, a laugh, meeting some lovely people...and a going away from the building, with a smile upon the face.....then, those lovely people I know, have done some good.

It is perfectly possible to disagree with another person's belief or disbelief, without resorting to insults......something one sees all too often. One faction believes itself to be right, another group will shout them down and then all get called delusional by atheists.

I have said so many times, to an 'individual' and to others. ''Disagree, argue, but always respect the personal belief or disbelief, held sacred by others and if a belief system is downright evil, hopefully, all decent people will gather together to defend what is truly right...people of whatever religion or outlook.'' If there is an after-life...the atheist, when he/she gets there, will exclaim, ''Oh, shit,'' and if there is nothing, then believers will be one the wiser.

I think you mis-understood what a certain person was trying to say and do. Yes, quite true, death comes all too soon (too soon, it seems, for some). and we are all headed in the same direction.....but think on this. Party too hard...and one can bring about ones own misery and demise, before it should ever happen.

Cat's post is spot on. We all have guides and we all have our loved ones around us. Whether we choose to call what we feel spirit, energy, a life force....it doesn't matter.

What is right for an individual is important and as the heart of my Church once said (and this was a lady of 90, a ''retired'' Medium and the sweetest of old ladies), ...''Always be sceptical. never believe anything just because you are told, 'this is how it is'...always question''

Spiritualists believe that the most important thing is love. Love and the light...whatever ''the light,'' may be. That is why we always say ''Love and light,'' to people...instead of a goodbye...or maybe as a blessing. I so wish that all people had love and light in their hearts.

[AdamKadmon43]

Adam just because you are emotionally and spiritually constipated, it doesnt mean that the rest of us are.

Various cultures all over the world have their own personal beliefs, and the belief in God, Goddess, and the Spirits are held by many of us, and we do believe that the energies(Spirits) of those loved ones that have walked the Path Do come to us to give us a bit of reassurance, confidance, and guidance now and then. Just because you dont believe in something, dont knock another person's belief system whether it be religious or Spiritual.
Go on back under the rock, and have a cookie.
Cat

It is not my intend to insult or make fun of anyone's beliefs. And If I come across as doing so, then I sincerely apologize.

HOWEVER.....

It is extremely troublesome to me (if not down right frightening) that in these modern times, with the great store of knowledge of the world that humanity has accumulated, that so many of us still engage in such primitive beliefs..... Beliefs that have never had one single, concrete, demonstrable shred of empirical evidence to support them.

It is distrubing enough that so many us claim that we "talk to god", but to claim that we can communicate with deceased mortals is quite simply too much for me to take seriously. It totally confounds me that otherwise sane, normal, educated people living in today's world choose to believe such things. I understand that some of it is driven by the fear of death and the unknown, but if a simple-minded idiot like me can manage to deal with all that without resorting to such strange notions, then anyone can.

Epistemologically speaking, philosophers have generally agreed that there are primarily three ways we can know things: empiricism, rationality and intuitive knowledge. And I do not discount the validity of any of the three. But when one of them flies completely in the face of the other two, it can be dangerous to what we generally agree to be sanity .... and quite often an impediment to human progress. I do not intend to belabor this point, but just for one example... look at the disastrous historical results of the belief in witches.

I think that people are entitled to such beliefs, and I would certainly never attempt to deprive them or deny them such beliefs. But I also think that I have the right to express my opinion about it. That being: it is a lot of ignorant, supersticious nonsense most likely fueled by chemical imbalances in peoples brains and/or their desire to believe something despite all evidence to the contrary just because they want to believe it.

So, go crawl back under your rock of illogic, and have a talk with your dead ancestors.

[AdamKadmon43]

Why is it most of what I see from him are attacks on others beliefs and impatience when he wants his own understood?

And as for you.... I shall just simply ignore you.

[Canticle]

Cat.....don't ya just love it....he's agreeing with you....lol!!

[rissababynta]

*sings* Another thread bites the dust...another thread bites the dust...

You had a good thing going Twyla. Sorry that it has begun to turn into something that it was never meant to turn into.

[Canticle]

*sings* Another thread bites the dust...another thread bites the dust...

You had a good thing going Twyla. Sorry that it has begun to turn into something that it was never meant to turn into.

It was a very iteresting thread Rissa. Still is....but it's taken a right turn...or maybe left.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Sorry Twy, I didnt mean to hijack your post, Hon. Death and the possibility of it is a very serious thing, and all of us have pondered it a time or two in our lives, so I understand completely. When you've looked death in the eye and danced with him, you grow a respect for him/it.
So with that said..Let's Parrrttyyy!
Hugzz
Cat.

[AdamKadmon43]

*sings* Another thread bites the dust...another thread bites the dust...

You had a good thing going Twyla. Sorry that it has begun to turn into something that it was never meant to turn into.

Sorry rissa, but I rather vehemently disagree. I think that it was helpful for it to turn into something else.

It has been my personal experience in life that bisexuals are viewed as rather odd, strange, weird, confused individuals. Far more so than the way exclusive homosexuality is viewed. We need to show them that we are normal, average, ever-day peolple and and not a bunch of fruit loops. Let's face it..... communicating with dead people is not widely accepted as being normal in Western civilization.

I suspect the problem is that we tend to view this site as some sort of exclusive bisexual clubhouse where we can discuss our bisexuality and the things that we think about and that matter to us..... But it is not. It is an open forum that anyone can view. And some of their opinions about us are formed by what they find here. I have personally gotten a great deal of negative feedback about some of the forum topics in here. "You people all seem to be obscessed with sex, and weird stuff" comes to mind.

If you want to claim that you communicate with dead people, that is fine with me. But please just try to not associate with it bisexuality. We got enough problems.

People already think that we are crazy... and sometimes I suspect they might be right.

[TwylaTwobits]

Sorry rissa, but I rather vehemently disagree. I think that it was helpful for it to turn into something else.

It has been my personal experience in life that bisexuals are viewed as rather odd, strange, weird, confused individuals. Far more so than the way exclusive homosexuality is viewed. We need to show them that we are normal, average, ever-day peolple and and not a bunch of fruit loops. Let's face it..... communicating with dead people is not widely accepted as being normal in Western civilization.

I suspect the problem is that we tend to view this site as some sort of exclusive bisexual clubhouse where we can discuss our bisexuality and the things that we think about and that matter to us..... But it is not. It is an open forum that anyone can view. And some of their opinions about us are formed by what they find here. I have personally gotten a great deal of negative feedback about some of the forum topics in here. "You people all seem to be obscessed with sex, and weird stuff" comes to mind.

If you want to claim that you communicate with dead people, that is fine with me. But please just try to not associate with it bisexuality. We got enough problems.

People already think that we are crazy... and sometimes I suspect they might be right.


Okay Adam this might get me tarred and feathered. But this thread wasn't about bisexuality. News flash I'm straight. I'm staying straight. I've never had nor do I want to have a same sex experience. I am here because I am in love with a bisexual.

This thread was not about bisexuality, I can't make it any clearer than that. As I stated you believe what you want to believe, which is apparently nothing. I will believe as I know. Your empirical evidence means nothing to someone who has literally walked with her Goddess and recieved the guiding and the comfort she has needed in times of sorrow. You don't get to say that no one comes back, because by hell I DID. I died October 3, 2007 on the operating table, the medical records note I was gone for 2 minutes before they restarted my heart.

I have seen and experienced things that are as real to me as the computer chair you sit in while you try to prove you are better than anyone else.

So please go take your attitude elsewhere, welcome to ignore.

[Long Duck Dong]

Sorry rissa, but I rather vehemently disagree. I think that it was helpful for it to turn into something else.

It has been my personal experience in life that bisexuals are viewed as rather odd, strange, weird, confused individuals. Far more so than the way exclusive homosexuality is viewed. We need to show them that we are normal, average, ever-day peolple and and not a bunch of fruit loops. Let's face it..... communicating with dead people is not widely accepted as being normal in Western civilization.

I suspect the problem is that we tend to view this site as some sort of exclusive bisexual clubhouse where we can discuss our bisexuality and the things that we think about and that matter to us..... But it is not. It is an open forum that anyone can view. And some of their opinions about us are formed by what they find here. I have personally gotten a great deal of negative feedback about some of the forum topics in here. "You people all seem to be obscessed with sex, and weird stuff" comes to mind.

If you want to claim that you communicate with dead people, that is fine with me. But please just try to not associate with it bisexuality. We got enough problems.

People already think that we are crazy... and sometimes I suspect they might be right.


adam, the last I saw, this is a open forum for discussion.... not a obligation to only talk about things that suit some people....

now by talking about different ways of thinking and viewing things, we are showing that bisexuals are more than sex hungry cheaters....
but you seem to have a issue with the fact that people are talking about their views and viewpoints, and how they are wrong and portraying the bisexual community as fruit loops and space cadets...

fortunately, there are people in the world and a large majority of them that share the same intelligent and informed views as a lot of the bisexual com... its called a common ground....

now fortunately for you adam, there is also a group of people in the world that are faith and religion disputing people as well, and they can relate to the bisexuals that are faith and religion disputing bisexuals....

right, the interesting thing to notice is that you make the claim that this is a open forum, yet I fail to see you starting a thread for the nay sayers of faith and religion, merely jumping on a thread that is pro faith, and trying to derail it.... this is actually a common thing, as if you posted a nay sayers thread it would die out pretty fast.... and therefore you need to hi jack a pro faith thread in order to feel that your views have merit....

now I kindly request, that when you have obtained all knowledge and understanding in the universe and can prove or disprove every aspect of faith and belief, that you come back and you prove us all wrong.... until that point, all you are doing is arguing that we are all a pack of idiots but you can not disprove anything we believe, as you do not have the ability to disprove it.... and our opposing argument is belief and faith.... its that simple

now belief and faith is simply that we believe, is true, the same as you believe what you say to be true....but for us, the proof is in the way we live and lead our lives, your proof lays in studies and stats that do not have the ability to disprove or disprove what you claim to be correct...

[tenni]

It seems to me that the OP has been offended when challenged about making statements about communicating with the dead. I'm not sure that she should not have expected to be challenged as such beliefs are out of the norm of mainstream thinking. That is not to write that such beliefs are wrong. I think that many people who have had people close to them die may support her but it has not been empirically proven and Adam is correct to make such statements. Clearly such Goddess/speaking to the dead chatter has offended him.

This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such religious/spiritual chatter as the frequency of such posts begins to look like evangelical if not cult like chatter that has nothing to do with bisexuality.

[Long Duck Dong]

It seems to me that the OP has been offended when challenged about making statements about communicating with the dead. I'm not sure that she should not have expected to be challenged as such beliefs are out of the norm of mainstream thinking. That is not to write that such beliefs are wrong. I think that many people who have had people close to them die may support her but it has not been empirically proven and Adam is correct to make such statements. Clearly such Goddess/speaking to the dead chatter has offended him.

This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such religious/spiritual chatter as the frequency of such posts begins to look like evangelical if not cult like chatter that has nothing to do with bisexuality.


care to tell drew not to post articles from famous bisexual writers talking about it and the number of bisexuals that are part of the wiccan / pagan and spiritual communities ???

and if it offended adam, he didn't have to reread the thread a few times and post in it...... freedom of choice......

[rissababynta]

Ummm, the last time I checked, unless someone is beginning a thread to spark up a debate, one should not be expected to expect being challenged. It is not as if Twyla started this thread for such a reason, she was simply sharing some thoughts and feelings that she has found in a song.

Serves you right for thinking of sharing nice things with us Twyla, maybe you'll think twice next time before you do something so ridiculous ;)

[TwylaTwobits]

Ummm, the last time I checked, unless someone is beginning a thread to spark up a debate, one should not be expected to expect being challenged. It is not as if Twyla started this thread for such a reason, she was simply sharing some thoughts and feelings that she has found in a song.

Serves you right for thinking of sharing nice things with us Twyla, maybe you'll think twice next time before you do something so ridiculous ;)

Yeah, Rissa, I think next time I'll just mail Cat and a few others that share my sense of humor and understand the workings of an overactive mind. :p


Seriously this thread was sparked by something that was going around in my head at the time. There are always threads about sex and well let's say it, fucking, or cheating. Not a lot of threads about death, life or taxes... 3 things we can't escape in this world regardless of sexuality, gender or religious preferences. Doesn't change the fact that I have Adam on ignore. I have more class though than to bash a person while they are on ignore and can't respond.

[tenni]

Rissa
Our views differ. Religion and spiritual beliefs are sparky, subjective and debatable. Any comment on such topics may be very frequently controversial. The OP is now aware that her view about speaking to the dead is controversial for some.

Writing about a religious belief that discriminates against GLBT people is quite different than what was posted by the OP.

The OP went beyond the song with her thoughts and even within the song, there were aspects that all may not agree with about death and after death.

Adam went too far with his words but so was the OP's reaction over the top...with "burn bibles".




Ummm, the last time I checked, unless someone is beginning a thread to spark up a debate, one should not be expected to expect being challenged. It is not as if Twyla started this thread for such a reason, she was simply sharing some thoughts and feelings that she has found in a song.

Serves you right for thinking of sharing nice things with us Twyla, maybe you'll think twice next time before you do something so ridiculous ;)

[TwylaTwobits]

There is an option to read posts, Tenni. If you don't agree with the subject matter then you are free to not read.

[tenni]

That is quite true. It is everyone's right to decide what they will read or respond to. If I don't agree and identify with some aspect, I respond.

What's your point? :rolleyes:



There is an option to read posts, Tenni. If you don't agree with the subject matter then you are free to not read.

[rissababynta]

Well, I for one am tired of the breath of fresh air in the form of innocent and nice threads being hijacked repeatedly, so I refuse to play into this game anymore.

Twyla, next time you want to share something, and you wish to do it privately, by all means email me. You know I will appreciate it.

[TwylaTwobits]

Hugs Rissa, I know how ya feel hon. Seems it wouldn't matter if someone posted the sky was blue someone on this site would argue about the color and if it was actually blue or our interpretation of blue and whether or not color actually exists.


To Tenni, you seem to take an issue with things and choose to create problems where there are none. Keep it up and you will soon be known to be like Adam and then your responses won't be seen by the majority of this site. Which is a shame because at times you do have valid points.

[tenni]

My first post to this thread was dealing with the topic of death and I posted beyond the topic because I thought that Adam was being mistreated. I saw a problem and yes I saw an issue that you obviously did not see.

Adam did present his thoughts crudely and you reacted very well until your last sentence. Then your true anger showed. I do not know the history of Adam with some of you but from reading this thread, I saw that he was being degraded in my opinion. I do not stand quietly by if I see bullying. Maybe, I am wrong but that is what I saw.






To Tenni, you seem to take an issue with things and choose to create problems where there are none. Keep it up and you will soon be known to be like Adam and then your responses won't be seen by the majority of this site. Which is a shame because at times you do have valid points.

[TwylaTwobits]

Back on topic.

A beautiful love poem that knows death isn't the end.

Annabel Lee by Edgar Allen Poe

It was many and many a year ago,
In a kingdom by the sea,
That a maiden there lived whom you may know
By the name of Annabel Lee;
And this maiden she lived with no other thought
Than to love and be loved by me.

I was a child and she was a child,
In this kingdom by the sea;
But we loved with a love that was more than love -
I and my Annabel Lee;
With a love that the winged seraphs of heaven
Coveted her and me.
And this was the reason that, long ago,
In this kingdom by the sea,
A wind blew out of a cloud, chilling
My beautiful Annabel Lee;
So that her highborn kinsman came
And bore her away from me,
To shut her up in a sepulcher
In this kingdom by the sea.
The angels, not half so happy in heaven,
Went envying her and me
Yes! that was the reason
(as all men know, In this kingdom by the sea)
That the wind came out of the cloud by night,
Chilling and killing my Annabel Lee.

But our love was stronger by far than the love
Of those who were older than we
Of many far wiser than we
And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.
For the moon never beams without bringing me dreams
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee;
And the stars never rise but I feel the bright eyes
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee;
And so, all the night-tide, I lie down by the side
Of my darling, my darling, my life and my bride,
In the sepulcher there by the sea,
In her tomb by the sounding sea.

[Long Duck Dong]

death is merely the end of a life long struggle to gain everything we can not take with us when we are gone, such as wisdom, knowledge, love, passion.....

yet from the moment we are born, death is our friend, our mentor, our teacher, and not something to fear as the end of a life, but a constant reminder that nothing is immortal....

we eat the flesh of things that are dead, plants and animals, we deal with the death of our appliances, our tvs, our gardens, and yet they do not cause us the fear of our own lives, our own mortality.....

so why do we fear a natural part of our lives.... could it be the loss of control over issues and matters, the fear of not having the last word, the fear that others may speak untrue about us......

or could it be that we are so wrapped up in trying to live that we fear the one thing that can stop us doing that...... yet its the one thing that is naturally a part of our lives from the moment we are born....

and so comes the death of this thread... I mean the end of me writing it

[void()]

You'll be dead soon enough.... Don't rush it.

ROFLMAO!!!! & PMSL!!!!

Like I would notice a difference oh great sage. I live as though dead, so what is death?

The whole of it cultivates into being able to live because you set aside fear, hate, anger, any emotion really, and illusions about life. You live in a state some Hindu and Yoga gurus call Satori or Truth. It is not an easy path to follow, I do not always stay on the path. I doubt many can stay on it. There are a few to be sure, lest there be nothing to aspire to.

And yeah, living in Satori is being aware that all around is nothing but a void. "We make everything, use nothing." But I disagree with that Way as it reaches outward and says a divine being had a hand in it. Sorry, I just refuse to buy some being that knows all, is all, end all. If they existed then nothing else would by means of reductionist logic and analogy.

'Course analogy can destroy it all. Look at Hiroshima, no? Anola Gay was the plane's designation that flew in the bombs. It is an anagram, obviously. Folks in the know and with the power, made that so. Doubt they missed seeing the irony or satire in it. But we're surrounded by a world full of apathy. Sure there's a divine being. They call it stupidity.

Maybe I fit there in the being's arms, too. Maybe I don't. I don't know, nor care to know. It would probably be the worst terror for anyone for me to know. So, I just keep on keeping on. I don't rush, I don't let moss grow.

[AdamKadmon43]

death is merely the end of a life long struggle to gain everything we can not take with us when we are gone, such as wisdom, knowledge, love, passion.....

yet from the moment we are born, death is our friend, our mentor, our teacher, and not something to fear as the end of a life, but a constant reminder that nothing is immortal....

we eat the flesh of things that are dead, plants and animals, we deal with the death of our appliances, our tvs, our gardens, and yet they do not cause us the fear of our own lives, our own mortality.....

so why do we fear a natural part of our lives.... could it be the loss of control over issues and matters, the fear of not having the last word, the fear that others may speak untrue about us......

or could it be that we are so wrapped up in trying to live that we fear the one thing that can stop us doing that...... yet its the one thing that is naturally a part of our lives from the moment we are born....



Very nicely put LDD... Thank you.

[void()]

Pepper - Butthole Surfers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGmP_q79-s0)

Marky got with Sharon
And Sharon got Cherese
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
Then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

(In Reverse:
I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes)

Another Mikey took a knife
While arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death
He caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever-present
Football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Pauly caught a bullet
But it only hit his leg
Well it should have been a better shot
And got him in the head
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Fucking A Yeah! Now I'll have that plastered into my psyche for six weeks. Love hearing that guy ... "They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain"

Such a great mantra, along with another I appreciate. "I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?"

Never realized that such a philosophy/way of life/belief/product of mass hysteria crossed so many lines. Feels good knowing other twisted assholes like me exist. :)

"Sometimes those who profess to have no belief, actually have more than they would like to admit.....a kind of rebellion."

Honey, I need to borrow the poor country boy a moment and say, "duh."

I have no belief. But I do have faith in Hope. Does that get everybody all randy like? I hope so, damn tired of multiple orgasms not working. Whew, exhausted isn't the word. Glad we decided to have the orgy in New Mexico, again. I can always find New Mexico after eating those buttons. You know, Peyote buttons remind me of nip buttons. ;)

Oh right, curb it. Yes we do rebel because not to means slavery. Would rather die on my feet an untamed dog than to bow and be castrated by some other fucker's sick ideas of utopia. Seems I recall a few wars fought with such a similar cause in the crux. Remember, _The day the world turned upside down_? A mate over yer end o' de pond says that was wot your jolly marines played as they retreated from America.

Dunay if ye know a McLaughin clan or nay. He offered me a shepherd's lot once. I never did arse meself to bide it. Was too young and stupid to realize him saying, "got two boys waiting at the airport for ye" meant a life of being free. His flock spans the globe, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, America, Prussia. Still kicking meself for being yon brave little soldier.

Damn it, cunning Geordie that. I be running off now. You done see too much in these eyes.

[AdamKadmon43]

ROFLMAO!!!! & PMSL!!!!

Like I would notice a difference oh great sage. I live as though dead, so what is death?

The whole of it cultivates into being able to live because you set aside fear, hate, anger, any emotion really, and illusions about life. You live in a state some Hindu and Yoga gurus call Satori or Truth. It is not an easy path to follow, I do not also stay on the path. I doubt many can stay on it. There are a few to be sure, lest there be nothing to aspire to.

And yeah, living in Satori is being aware that all around is nothing but a void. "We make everything, use nothing." But I disagree with that Way as it reaches outward and says a divine being had a hand in it. Sorry, I just refuse to buy some being that knows all, is all, end all. If they existed then nothing else would by means of reductionist logic and analogy.

'Course analogy can destroy it all. Look at Hiroshima, no? Anola Gay was the plane's designation that flew in the bombs. It is an anagram, obviously. Folks in the know and with the power, made that so. Doubt they missed seeing the irony or satire in it. But we're surrounded by a world full of apathy. Sure there's a divine being. They call it stupidity.

Maybe I fit there in the being's arms, too. Maybe I don't. I don't know, nor care to know. It would probably be the worst terror for anyone for me to know. So, I just keep on keeping on. I don't rush, I don't let moss grow.

I live as though life is all there is.

Depending upon how you choose to view it... I am either fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to assume that the "here" and the "now" is the sum totality of our existence.

I take great joy and delight in the magnificient and beautiful world that I seem to exist in. I am constantly amazed by it's complexity and diversity. And I experience tremendous amounts of joy in realizing how much we have come to understand the workings of it. The sub-atomic structure of our physical world is simply astounding. I don't know how many ordinary people have ever investigated those sorts of things, but I really wish that more of them would. Be advised that you probably should not go plunging into particle physics and quantum mechanics unless you are really, really brave and willing to sacrifice your sanity.

I suppose that is why I lose patience with people who persist in over-simplifying human existence. Why must they be so caught up in their own desire to be immortal? Why must they let their emotions over-rule their brains? Why can they not understand that they really are, indeed, immortal in that the atoms that make up the molecules of their physical bodies are eternally re-cycled back into the Universe. We really are indeed the product of star dust in the greater sense, and I do not understand why we can not be content with such knowledge.

But perhaps I do not deal with all that very well either.... If I did, then maybe I would not be so guilty of lubricating my spiritual well-being with an occasional bit of substance abuse.

[void()]

"This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such religious/spiritual chatter as the frequency of such posts begins to look like evangelical if not cult like chatter that has nothing to do with bisexuality."


If I had nickle ...

This is a thread about life and thoughts of life. Death is a natural extension of life. Last I checked bisexual folks did live. So, discussing life is disrespectful?

Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to read the thread. No one forced replies.

And so you understand, I'll repeat something again.

Wicca means knowledge and wisdom. It is the sort folks gather from living. Let me give you a quick example here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitalis

It is a drug used to help heart conditions. For thousands if not a few million years, wiccans prescribed a tea made from foxglove for heart ailments. Modern medicine comes along and recycles their wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt%27s_foot

Colt's Foot is another old home remedy. It contains Tussin, which you now find in cough medicines like Robotussin, Vicks and so on.

The wiccans gained this knowledge from living, from sharing, caring. "Hey, last week Joe Blow over here had a cough. He ate some of this weed that has yellow flowers and purple viens. His cough went away."

The same principle/s apply here as well. We're all one class of folks. We're sharing tales about life and living. Death is part of that. If it offends other folks then they don't need to read it. It is still within keeping of the guidelines.

Shoot, a Christian, Islamic poster could write up a thread the same as folks here did. Would you say that was offensive, too?

Bah, mail the nickles to the Hati thing.

[void()]

"advised that you probably should not go plunging into particle physics and quantum mechanics unless you are really, really brave and willing to sacrifice your sanity.

I suppose that is why I lose patience with people who persist in over-simplifying human existence. Why must they be so caught up in their own desire to be immortal? Why must they let their emotions over-rule their brains? Why can they not understand that they really are, indeed, immortal in that the atoms that make up the molecules of their physical bodies are eternally re-cycled back into the Universe."

Sanity forfeit? Pffft. They can not keep me in Western State. I keep escaping and my day pass cards are full up.

To over simplify I think would be to take it all back to water. Water came to the earth from space, it carried those immortal particles you mention. I'm not the only fool believing such, check out Dr. Emoto, who does stuff with water crystals.

That would be really simple too. "We're all aliens, dust from the stars."

Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication. ;)

[AdamKadmon43]

"
Sanity forfeit? Pffft. They can not keep me in Western State. I keep escaping and my day pass cards are full up.

To over simplify I think would be to take it all back to water. Water came to the earth from space, it carried those immortal particles you mention. I'm not the only fool believing such, check out Dr. Emoto, who does stuff with water crystals.

That would be really simple too. "We're all aliens, dust from the stars."

Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication. ;)

Thanks Void... I have a great deal of respect for you.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Lord, I missed something somewhere. I missed the part about someone communicating with the dead....
Confused Cat.
PS Twy, you can send me anything you Like, Girlfriend. At least Rissa and I can make light of this and you'd understand. :}

[TwylaTwobits]

LOL Cat, apparently someone took me saying a whisper in the wind as being a deep down conversation with someone on the other side. I'm not denying there are people in this world who can actually pick somethig up, but I'm not one of them. I know my sister hangs around cause she actually flips the back of my hair, something she did when she was alive that drove me nuts.

But all in all the point of this thread was about how we let death court us everyday, always whispering seductively to us about how easy it would be to just let it all go. That's what happens when you are just tired of thinking about certain things that have no answer and never will be answered in this lifetime.

That song just touched me as I read it, in part because of how it was used in the book, very well done by the author of the grieving partner of a lifebond left behind to fulfill the duty he had to his kingdom.

If people want to make too much of it, let em.

[AdamKadmon43]

I know my sister hangs around cause she actually flips the back of my hair, something she did when she was alive that drove me nuts.


This is not an attempt to attack anyone's beliefs, or to continue keeping alive a thread that has gone on far longer than it should have..... So, I hope they don't start in on me again.

But a statement like that indicates to me that you may very well be in serious need of some psychological counceling... Please try to seek some help.

If I were just callous and un-caring I would simply ignore it and forget about it, but I actually do care about people, believe it or not.

[coyotedude]

True confessions: I am a Valdemar series fan. I wouldn't call it high literature, per se, but I find it entertaining nonetheless...

[void()]

Thanks Void... I have a great deal of respect for you.

And I you, Adam. But I also have respect for many here. Shoot, I manage to respect myself at times. ;)

I appreciate your view of living in the here and now. My own view gets me to roughly the same point, albeit in a round about way.

[Long Duck Dong]

I remember when I went under a psych test in the army, and that was ordering for all of us after a exercise went wrong....

I was talking to the psych, and I said to them * am I wrong to think about death as my friend and a daily part of my life * ?

the psych gave me the following answer * there are people in this world that will lay on their backs and look up at the sky and try to touch the clouds and get told to stop being a idiot, you can not touch the clouds, and then there are the people that will climb a mountain and touch the clouds, and people will call them idiots for having a open mind on ways to touch the clouds......

the thing is the name callers are often the same people, and they are the ones that have their heads in the sand and never see the clouds at all

you are a mountain climber, you will take the risks to touch the clouds, you know every step could be your last..... but you will touch the clouds

the people that think you are misguided for doing so, are the people that lay on their backs and stare at the clouds....

and the ones that will call you mentally unstable and mentally ill, are the ones with their heads in the sand, and they are the ones who judge you based on something they will never know anything about.....


so i said to the psych..... * and if I talk to spirits ? *

they replied, * you are as sane as most of the human race, the only difference, you listen, thats why you can talk to them *.....

[coyotedude]

LDD - very well said!

Peace

[Canticle]

I am about to post something, which I have had a great deal of trouble with the decision to post, or not. I have finally decided that I must, because I am a spiritual person and it does not sit well with me, that I ignore something, which somes from deep inside and asks to be written.

So I would ask that those in charge of the site realise this and do not punish me for feeling the need to express how I feel, about what has been said about spiritual matters. My beliefs are very important to me and if I did not post this very long post, I would be dishonouring myself.

Please understand that Drew. It is a matter of faith and belief. After this post, I will make no further contribution to the thread.

[IanBorthwick]

And as for you.... I shall just simply ignore you.

Best news I have heard all week, as your statements thus far you set yourself up then knock yourself down.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Hey Twy? The best advice I can give ya girlfriend is this....Click. Lol
Cat-Biting Tongue.

[Canticle]

I began a reply to post 155228 and then decided that this was not a good idea, afeared that this is what someone expected me to do. I like to think that I have made a contribution to a thread, because of the subject matter and not because of whom may have posted. However, many posts on, I have now decided that I need to make that reply and also refer to other posts. This will be a ‘quiet’ post. I spend a lot of my time thinking about spirituality and my own spiritual growth has leapt forward, in leaps and bounds over the last four years, with the help of someone very dear to my heart. So I begin my address by replying to post 155228.

Adam, because you are so intelligent, it does amaze me, that you have such a narrow view about things which cannot be explained. Throwing long words into the fire, does not make the coals burn more brightly, nor does it make you right.....but neither does it make you wrong. However, you have a one track mind and there is no meeting people half way. You never do, when it comes to religion. Reading books makes no one an expert. Studying science...does not mean that one has, or knows all the answers.

I have discussed spirituality with you, many times and you have often agreed with me and I know that you are no atheist. What you call illogical...may one day be proved to be quite logical. What we take for granted as logic in the
21st century, was once considered incredibly illogical. It works both ways.

It is good to feel troubled, as this shows that we question. However, you shouldn’t let it frighten you that people have beliefs, in the 21st century, which you cannot explain and which they cannot prove.

What are primitive beliefs? From the very first intelligent thought, any human had, there have been those who have felt the energy of the Cosmos and you know exactly what I mean by this. It's the life force of the universe...that vital spark which joins one human to another. Humans to all flora and fauna upon the planet, to the planet itself and to the wider universe.

Humans have felt this energy from the very beginning. Animals sense it too, and far from being primitive, the people who studied the stars and venerated the earth...who felt that energy....were not at all stupid.

Empirical evidence means nothing in this area, for as far as I am aware, there is no scientific test which can prove or disprove the existence of the energy, of which I speak.. The only thing that the word ‘’empirical.’’ does, in this situation, is make the person using the word, feel somewhat superior. Well people who bandy about such words are not superior...in intellect...in any way.

Adam, you have read the Gospel of St Thomas, I know you have, as have I. You have understood from your reading, for you have told me this, that this dis-allowed, Gnostic Gospel, rejected at the Convention of Nicea, is actually quite an amazing work. For we have Jesus talking to his spiritual 'twin,' Thomas and he talks about the 'God within.' If there is a universal life force and it joins everything together...an energy.....could this not be described as the ''God within''....the ''people talking to God''......

I have tried...many times...to explain my spiritualist beliefs to you, without much success. You believe that we are born, we live, we die. Fine. Nothing wrong in that...all true. This does not mean that there is not a separation between the carnate and the incarnate.

I and many others, believe....think…..that this life force, which makes us all that we are, does not cease to exist, once the mortal shell dies. We think, believe that this energy moves on. I think you believe ...think, something similar. However, your thoughts, beliefs, take your energy....mortal remains...back to the Cosmos. People with a similar opinion to myself....believe in both endings.

Here, I must quote some of your text, ‘’but to claim that we can communicate with deceased mortals is quite simply too much for me to take seriously. It totally confounds me that otherwise sane, normal, educated people living in today's world choose to believe such things. I understand that some of it is driven by the fear of death and the unknown, but if a simple-minded idiot like me can manage to deal with all that without resorting to such strange notions, then anyone can.''

OK, you are unable to step away from your ‘’logical’’ thinking, to even try to conceive that others may be right. You require proof. I tell you now. You aint’ going to get, for the forseeable future, the kind of concrete, scientific proof, which you crave.

Spirituality does not work like that. It cannot be manufactured in a test tube. How do I know this? I know this because there are many fakes out there who will claim to have a ‘’gift,’’ or be able to ‘’give healing,’’ or do what you call ‘’communicating with dead mortals.’’ They get found out…..and usually by truly spiritual people, in very much the same way as people who lie, get found out. They eventually give themselves away.

People with spiritual beliefs will continue to be sane, normal, educated people and their belief will not be born out of the fear of dying or of the unknown. Quite the contrary. With most people, what ever their brlief pattern, it is not death, which they fear, but the process of dying.

I realise you will have an answer to this, as I have heard it, but to most people, life is sweet, sacred…..every minute to be savoured, enjoyed and not wasted by abusing this wonderful gift of life. Even if a person can only open their eyes, to see the sunshine, life is still sweet and the life of a great scientist, such as Stephen Hawking, is no more worthwhile than the life of an uneducated person, who may very well be, the most kind and loving human upon the planet.

You, Adam, are no ‘’simple-minded idiot,’’ so please do not try to portray yourself as such.

‘’Epistemologically speaking, philosophers have generally agreed that there are primarily three ways we can know things: empiricism, rationality and intuitive knowledge. And I do not discount the validity of any of the three. But when one of them flies completely in the face of the other two, it can be dangerous to what we generally agree to be sanity .... and quite often an impediment to human progress. I do not intend to belabor this point, but just for one example... look at the disastrous historical results of the belief in witches.’’

So philosophers have ‘’generally agreed,’’ have they? Where did these philosphers get all the knowledge from and who taught their teachers? It seems to me, that people with a mindset, such as yours, will always find excuses, reasons, valid arguments for arguing that something which you yourselves cannot prove, is therefore nonsense.

How so, have spiritual beliefs impeded human progress. Think long and hard here. I said ‘’spiritual,’’ not religious. The two are very different and your example of a belief in witches, is not a valid one. That has far more to do with hysteria whipped up by organised religion and has nothing to do with true faith…or spirituality.

‘’I think that people are entitled to such beliefs, and I would certainly never attempt to deprive them or deny them such beliefs. But I also think that I have the right to express my opinion about it. That being: it is a lot of ignorant, supersticious nonsense most likely fueled by chemical imbalances in peoples brains and/or their desire to believe something despite all evidence to the contrary just because they want to believe it.’’

This paragraph is insulting, although I thank you for having the good grace to say that you would never attempt to deprive people of their beliefs. You are entitled to air your opinion about such matters, but when it comes to religion, faith, spirituality, your views are always clouded by your own experiences….much like the creationist, who damns anyone from another religion, to eternal hellfire.

The remark about ‘’ most likely fueled by chemical imbalances in peoples brains,’’ was totally unnecessary and a very ignorant one. I have a chemical imbalance in my brain, hence the reason I have epilepsy, but that has nothing to do with the spiritual experiences I have witnessed and know to be very real and experienced by others…..others who have no chemical imbalance. Educated and uneducated people, alike.

I believe that you’re trashing of the reality of spiritual experiences is due to your life long search for such a spirituality. You say you have found this in Pantheism (I think not, but hope that you have), and yet the core beliefs of Pantheists….to me, do not appear dissimilar to many pagan beliefs. Perhaps your Pantheism , is a pagan belief for the new age!!

Cat, you did not hijack any thread, you contributed some wise words. Please continue to do so.

Twyla, I was as amazed as you when I read the next post from a certain person. I really cannot see why he mentioned bisexuality. You opened an interesting thread and the poems posted by you and others, had many moving words.

If someone is so anchored in their logic, that they cannot take a step outside of their own ideas….beliefs and understand that there are many things which cannot be explaned away by science, nor proved by those who have experienced different things, then that person is the one losing out.

We, with spiritual beliefs, thoughts, experiences, are automatically expected, to believe the logic….but the other parties can never take that time out of their logic.

‘’now I kindly request, that when you have obtained all knowledge and understanding in the universe and can prove or disprove every aspect of faith and belief, that you come back and you prove us all wrong.... until that point, all you are doing is arguing that we are all a pack of idiots but you can not disprove anything we believe, as you do not have the ability to disprove it.... and our opposing argument is belief and faith.... its that simple’’

LDD…I fully concur with all you have said in that post…a very good one.

‘’This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such’’

Tenni…are you really serious?? Why is the discussion of such things out of place on a bisexual site and disrespectful of other posters’ philosophical positions? Does that mean that only certain subjects should be discussed and only certain philosphical outlooks? Has it not occurred to you that the spiritual beliefs of wiccan and other pagan beliefs and the beliefs of Christian Spiritualists, such as myself, form the rock upon which we base our philosophy.

Indeed, in my church, on a Sunday, a visiting Medium, will give what we call, ‘’the philosophy,’’ not a sermon and it has a very definite spiritual feel. A personal view or account of some experience by the Medium, yet one all can relate to and not just spiritualists. I think you have got this one very wrong. LDD’s following post was spot on.

A great shame, Twyla, that Tenni seems to disapprove of people having certain thoughts and ideas and airing and sharing them and that Adam can only call people with spiritual belief fools or crazy….or whatever words he likes to correct me for, for not quoting him properly.

Tenni…religion and politics are part of our everyday life. If we canot discuss certain aspects of belief, of spirituality……or poltical persuasion….then what can we discuss. The world is not straight, gay or bi….it’s a melting pot…as it is with race, colour, creed, religion…..that is reality. Like LDD said…..no one has to read a particular post or thread.

‘’My first post to this thread was dealing with the topic of death and I posted beyond the topic because I thought that Adam was being mistreated. I saw a problem and yes I saw an issue that you obviously did not see.

Adam did present his thoughts crudely and you reacted very well until your last sentence. Then your true anger showed. I do not know the history of Adam with some of you but from reading this thread, I saw that he was being degraded in my opinion. I do not stand quietly by if I see bullying. Maybe, I am wrong but that is what I saw.’’

I think that you are mistaken? Where was Adam being bullied? Where was he being degraded? You are totally wrong…absolutely. I just do not see how anyone can have formed that opinion. None of what you mention exists on the thread…and Tenni, people are allowed to get angry.

Another moving poem Twyla and then more sensible and spiritual words from LDD. Thank you.

‘’I live as though life is all there is.’’

I apologise for disagreeing, Adam, but No, you do not.’’

‘’Depending upon how you choose to view it... I am either fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to assume that the "here" and the "now" is the sum totality of our existence.’’

I think you will find that most people, whatever their belief system, are of that thought process and contrary to what you believe, they do not dwell on the hereafter….if they believe in one. Most people have to lead sober lives, either going to school, work, looking after children and doing the mundane things like washing pots and pans, getting the laundry clean, buying provisons, dealing with medical problems etc etc. The real here and now…….reality in a real world.

‘’I take great joy and delight in the magnificient and beautiful world that I seem to exist in. I am constantly amazed by it's complexity and diversity. And I experience tremendous amounts of joy in realizing how much we have come to understand the workings of it. The sub-atomic structure of our physical world is simply astounding. I don't know how many ordinary people have ever investigated those sorts of things, but I really wish that more of them would. Be advised that you probably should not go plunging into particle physics and quantum mechanics unless you are really, really brave and willing to sacrifice your sanity.’’

A person with Downs Syndrome, can also take great joy and delight in the magnificent and beautiful world. They might not understand the complexities, or pull it apart and study the sub-atomic structure…..but they will enjoy the warmth of the sun and the cold of the rain, upon their face and bring to others, love and joy, not misery and pain.

‘’I suppose that is why I lose patience with people who persist in over-simplifying human existence. Why must they be so caught up in their own desire to be immortal? Why must they let their emotions over-rule their brains? Why can they not understand that they really are, indeed, immortal in that the atoms that make up the molecules of their physical bodies are eternally re-cycled back into the Universe. We really are indeed the product of star dust in the greater sense, and I do not understand why we can not be content with such knowledge.’’

You lose patience with those who will not agree with you. Spirituality does not mean over-simplifying human existence. It actually means quite the opposite and you know this very well. Until we die, pass over, take our transition, whatever one likes to call it, there is a real world to live in and experience.

There is a life to lead…and it should be lived…not a half life. You believe, that when it comes down to it, human existence it futile and pointless. Try telling that to the 6 or 7 billion people who live on the planet.

People who strive to lead good lives. People who are ill, dying, starving and yet they keep on…because they want to live. They don’t want to think of themslves as atoms and particles of stardust, whilst they are alive. They want to live. Really live……unlike some people.

‘’But perhaps I do not deal with all that very well either.... If I did, then maybe I would not be so guilty of lubricating my spiritual well-being with an occasional bit of substance abuse.’’

Glad you can admit it, though I hope that the substance abuse is not that which you once told me, you had given up, many years ago.

‘’Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.’’‘’

Methinks what you may be referring to, doth not exist…except in someone’s fantasies....and if you take Adam's words about respecting you, then you are sorely mistaken.

It will not go unnoticed that a post was then made, which I felt insulted Twyla. However, I am sure that Twyla is a strong enough character, to rise above what was posted and anyway, she has a certain person on ignore.

That's it...no more from me. I thought hard and long, before posting this. In the end, my own spiritual feelings would not rest, until I had. I hope this will be understood.

[rissababynta]

Holy shit canticle lol. Well, I hope that getting that novel off of your chest made you feel better :tongue:

[AdamKadmon43]

Holy shit canticle lol. Well, I hope that getting that novel off of your chest made you feel better :tongue:

If you think THAT one was extreme...... you should hear her when she is in one of her less lucid moments.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

But a statement like that indicates to me that you may very well be in serious need of some psychological counceling... Please try to seek some help.

In many cultures and religions its spoken of those that Can hear Spirits and know that a loved one is close. Clergie hear voices all the time, and they arent sent in to a shrink. Dont knock someone for their personal, cultural beliefs, Adam. Just because it isnt in your little realm of belief doesnt make it untrue.
Cat

[Canticle]

One more comment. I have never been known, by friends and relatives, alike, to be anything but lucid, totally sane, truthful, trustworthy and have the ability to listen to the thoughts, ideas, views of others and even if I may violently disagree with them, be able to go away and take something from that experience...actually learn something...and therefore rejoice in the reality, that I have gained more depth of thought...more clarity of vision.

[Canticle]

But a statement like that indicates to me that you may very well be in serious need of some psychological counceling... Please try to seek some help.

In many cultures and religions its spoken of those that Can hear Spirits and know that a loved one is close. Clergie hear voices all the time, and they arent sent in to a shrink. Dont knock someone for their personal, cultural beliefs, Adam. Just because it isnt in your little realm of belief doesnt make it untrue.
Cat

The Great Spirit moves through, within and around us all, Cat. You feel it, I feel, Twyla feels it and countless other people. We are enriched by that feeling and knowledge and not limited in our outlook.

[Canticle]

Without Her……Dante Gabriel Rossetti….on the death of his wife,
Elizabeth Siddal


What of her glass without her? The blank grey
There where the pool is blind of the moon’s face,
Her dress without her? The tossed empty space
Of cloud-rack whence the moon has passed away.
Her path’s without her? Day’s appointed sway
Usurped by desolate night. Her pillowed place
Without her! Tears, Ah me! For love’s good grace
And cold forgetfulness of night or day.

What of the heart without her? Nay, poor heart,
Of thee what word remains ere speech be still?
A wayfarer by barren ways and chill,
Steep ways and weary, without her thou art,
Where the long cloud, the long wood’s counterpart,
Sheds doubled darkness up the labouring hill.

[tenni]

"Tenni…are you really serious?? Why is the discussion of such things out of place on a bisexual site and disrespectful of other posters’ philosophical positions? Does that mean that only certain subjects should be discussed and only certain philosphical outlooks? Has it not occurred to you that the spiritual beliefs of wiccan and other pagan beliefs and the beliefs of Christian Spiritualists, such as myself, form the rock upon which we base our philosophy."

Canticle
Yes, I am serious. I would like to be respectful of your spiritual perspective. In fact, my own perspective is not Christian but nor is it Wicca or your own belief from what I read here.

After reflecting upon what I posted, I would like to clarify. I was about to post a topic that was not directly related to bisexuality and realized that I had better put my posts where my thoughts are...:eek: I'm not sure where the boundaries are but sensitivity to others beliefs is a good idea for all of us. I include myself. Too much political and religious chatter may divide us or even repulse some posters. I do love a good discussion on these topics though. I'm torn. :(

I am genuinely quite surprised at how often Wicca, Pagan and Spiritualism is posted on this site. It does give me the impression that many bisexuals are really into these belief structures if I didn't know otherwise. I realize that for some reason or other certain vocal posters are inclined to bring this perspective up. I have never seen so much written about Wicca, Pagan, Spiritualism posted on any other site dealing with sexuality or generally. There is also a certain amount of posting about Christian extremists and bigotry toward GLBT. That make much more sense to me than to read these other spiritual aspect coming up as frequently as they do.

I think that the poems are interesting on this thread. I think that discussing death is an interesting topic. I think that concepts about an after life may be inevitable to come up on this topic. I was just thinking as I read your post about the more scientific explanation about death. I have heard it explained scientifically as the dying process of the brain. The brain may live/function longer than other organs during the dying process. There is an area of the brain that will hallucinate if cut off from oxygen as the brain is shutting down. This causes this sensation/concept of travelling through a tunnel, seeing the dead, etc. I also was thinking about what determines a spiritual dream like experience from a delusional hallucination? I suspect that it might involve endangerment to self or others. I'm inclined to think that it is a fine line but that might be an intetesting thread not connected to bisexuality..or maybe better for me to research on my own..;)

Now, I also had a good friend who experienced near death. He said that he floated above his body and saw the doctors and his body. He was brought back. I actually have one of his paintings on this after death experience. I would no more ignore his experience than I ignore what science states about death and the hallucinations as the brain is dying. In fact, I find that science supports his after death experience but differently than a spiritual perspective. I think that his explanation of his near death experience is much more romantic...lol It changed how he chose to live his life. That is a fact.

As to whether Wicca, Christianity etc. form the basis of philosophy, I think that I would be inclined to write that it plays a role in some areas such as Metaphysics and Religion but I think that the word philosophy is far wider than any one religiion or spiritual belief. If Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language, then it is wider than the parameters that you mention. Socrates was not a Christian but was key to the foundation of western philosophy. Ethics, Aesthetics, Logic, Epistemology and several others are all part of philosophy. Karl Marx may be seen as a philosopher and Communism may also be argued as a philosophy by some. It may also be argued as a political system...so keep yer pants on about that argument...lol. Communism rejects spirituality and religion.

Now, how comfortable are some to accept discussions on the positives of Communism? etc. if someone has a spiritual or philosophical perspective it can be very subjective while others will examine it from an intellectual approach. We have posters who wish to emote all over these threads and others who wish to examine such issues from a more analytical intellectual approach. Are they compatible?

[void()]

"’Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.’’‘’

Methinks what you may be referring to, doth not exist…except in someone’s fantasies.

First, many of us know the Trickster of many faces. We may be a bit naive but far from stupid. Don't recall handing you reign as Mum. Appreciate the sentiment but I'm capable enough, too.

...and if you take Adam's words about respecting you, then you are sorely mistaken.

Possibly. Did you read further my post. It was clear I afforded him nothing more than I afford many here, respect. Oft it is said to gain a thing you first give it away.

And finally, my apologies for appearing so brogue with you here as to tack you unto the wall. That's not my intent. Merely further clarifying the perspective. "

You read Rossetti? Damn. Next you'll announce viewing Raffaello via Picaso's moon. And no I don't mean this a snark. I truly am impressed you read Rossetti. Of course, coming from a culture that gave us Coleridge suppose it ought be expected. Wonder if you dare read Arnold.

[darkeyes]

"’Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.’’‘’

Methinks what you may be referring to, doth not exist…except in someone’s fantasies.

First, many of us know the Trickster of many faces. We may be a bit naive but far from stupid. Don't recall handing you reign as Mum. Appreciate the sentiment but I'm capable enough, too.

...and if you take Adam's words about respecting you, then you are sorely mistaken.

Possibly. Did you read further my post. It was clear I afforded him nothing more than I afford many here, respect. Oft it is said to gain a thing you first give it away.

And finally, my apologies for appearing so brogue with you here as to tack you unto the wall. That's not my intent. Merely further clarifying the perspective. "

You read Rossetti? Damn. Next you'll announce viewing Raffaello via Picaso's moon. And no I don't mean this a snark. I truly am impressed you read Rossetti. Of course, coming from a culture that gave us Coleridge suppose it ought be expected. Wonder if you dare read Arnold.

Not so surprisin Canticle read Rosetti.. Beeb did a drama serial called "Desperate Romantics" las year.. bout the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood.. wos very gud an all an not hugely innacurate as dramas go.. has meant a big increase in interest in ther art, poetry an readin books bout them an 'bout Lizzie Siddal an all. Ifya get a chance 2catch it on PBS or Beeb 'Merica.. hav lil look see.. is worth the effort..:)

Its fun 2 wotch!!!:tong:

[Canticle]

''Canticle
Yes, I am serious. I would like to be respectful of your spiritual perspective. In fact, my own perspective is not Christian but nor is it Wicca or your own belief from what I read here.''

I need to correct you here.....my own belief....I am a Christian Spiritualist. My church is a Christian Spiritualist church. I have moved on slightly in my spiritual beliefs, but as this has been a life long journey, with me now into the 41st year of being a Christian, I still identify, very much, as being basically Christian.

However, my Christian belief has always been a very personal one...not always in favour with other, so called Christians. Like I have never belonged to a church...not until the church I discovered in 2002. I didn't stay because of the belefs....but because of the people.

I've never believed in a virgin birth, or that a Jesus was the Son of God, or that Judas betrayed him. In fact in the last 3-4 years, with my spiritual growth, I have come to realise that I have never believed in a creator God and I think that if there was a man called Jesus...he died on the cross.

What for me, makes me a Christian...is that I believe in the purported words that man preached, but I believe that those word have also been preached by many other men/women...either of religion....or not.

I could go on being a Christian without the Spiritualism....I could not be a Spiritualist without my Christian beliefs. Hope that makes sense.

''After reflecting upon what I posted, I would like to clarify. I was about to post a topic that was not directly related to bisexuality and realized that I had better put my posts where my thoughts are...:eek: I'm not sure where the boundaries are but sensitivity to others beliefs is a good idea for all of us. I include myself. Too much political and religious chatter may divide us or even repulse some posters. I do love a good discussion on these topics though. I'm torn. :(''

There should be no boundaries. If there is no discussion, we do not communicate with, or learn about, the people and teachings of other belief systems. If there is no communication, there is stagnation and ignorance. Where there is stagnation and ignorance, there grows hatred and persecution happens. Where there is hatred and persecution, there is a numbing of the true spiritual growth, which could be achieved. Without that spiritual growth, humankind suffers.

''I am genuinely quite surprised at how often Wicca, Pagan and Spiritualism is posted on this site. It does give me the impression that many bisexuals are really into these belief structures if I didn't know otherwise. I realize that for some reason or other certain vocal posters are inclined to bring this perspective up. I have never seen so much written about Wicca, Pagan, Spiritualism posted on any other site dealing with sexuality or generally. There is also a certain amount of posting about Christian extremists and bigotry toward GLBT. That make much more sense to me than to read these other spiritual aspect coming up as frequently as they do.''

I would ask you. What makes a belief Pagan? To the Romans, Christianity and any other belief system was Pagan. I have heard 21st century creationist Christians, refer to the Roman Catholic Church, as pagan. Does mainstream. non-creationist Christiaity call Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism etc etc, pagan? I have never heard the other religions called pagan and yet, if the Christian church thinks it is the way, the truth and the light, surely, they should be calling other religions pagan.

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as Pagan. The beliefs of Native Americans, the old ''pagan religions''....any belief system which venerates the earth and all on and in it, can never be thought of as pagan. I would not call the beliefs of the Greeks and Romans, pagan. There are spiritual things to be found, in most religion. We are of Spirit. The Spirit moves within us and makes us who we are.

''I think that the poems are interesting on this thread. I think that discussing death is an interesting topic. I think that concepts about an after life may be inevitable to come up on this topic. I was just thinking as I read your post about the more scientific explanation about death and the concept of going to an after life and then returning to this world. I have heard it explained scientifically as the dying of the brain. There is an area of the brain that will hallucinate if cut off from oxygen as the brain is shutting down that causes this concept of travelling through a tunnel, seeing the dead, etc. I also was thinking about what determines a spiritual dream like experience from a delusional hallucination? I suspect that it might involve endangerment to self or others. I'm inclined to think that it is a fine line but that might be an intetesting thread not connected to bisexuality..or maybe better for me to research on my own..;)''

I do not believe in the death of the energy, which some call the soul and I call spirit. I believe that it moves on, to another state. My late mother, once asked me to describe what I thought the Spirit World (paradise, heaven...call it what you will), was like.

I could only describe what I believe, in this way. In the series, Star Trek -Deep Space 9, there was a character, a shape shifter called, Odo. His natural state was liquid. When his home planet was eventually found, he went down to the surface. In front of him was a shimmering lake. It was not a lake. It was his people...all in liquid form, separate and yet one whole.

This was my explanation to her, a highly intelligent woman and she got what what I meant. I believe that what I call the universal essence...the life force, which joins us all....is very much like this, too.

Therefore, for me, death of the body is not the same, as the energy, spirit, soul, moving on. I have read all about the things you mention and also watched documentaries upon the subject. I don't know about near death experiences. I am sceptical myself. I guess that if I had had one, I would think differently.

Any Spiritual experience, which I have had, has been when I was wide awake, and perfectly in control of my senses. I've never hallucinated.....I think that you need certain things to cause hallucination and I neither imbibe, or swallow any. I know people who do see spirit, externally and they too, are not hallucinating. I don't see anything. Sorry to disappoint you there.

However, my son and daughter do. They are not likely to imbibe or take into their bodies anything, to cause halluciations, either. Many people see things. Most don't talk about it, for fear of ridicule. Thankfully, my son and daughter, are not afraid to say that they have seen things. However, being normal and perfectly sane young people, they do not dwell upon such matters and get on with what they are supposed to do...and that is living their lives.

If things are seen, heard, experienced in anyway, due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, illness, an injury to the brain, I would not call that a true experience. For me, things have to be experienced in the cold light of day.

Someone might try to say that the epilepsy I have and the drugs I require to control it, will cause any experience I may have witnessed or felt. Sadly, they would be very wrong. Now if I have back ache and take some codeine and paracetamol, I will get sleepy and maybe have a vivid dream...but anything spiritual.....the hell it will be....lol.

''Now, I also had a good friend who experienced near death. He said that he floated above his body and saw the doctors and his body. He was brought back. I actually have one of his paintings on this after death experience. I would no more ignore his experience than I ignore what science states about death and the hallucinations as the brain is dying. I think that his explanation of his near death experience is much more romantic...lol''

Near death experience, I have commented on. Out of body experience...I don't know. I have a friend...very much alive...who claims to have had one. Maybe she did.....I don't know.

''As to whether Wicca, Christianity etc. form the basis of philosophy, I think that I would be inclined to write that it plays a role in some areas such as Metaphysics and Religion but I think that the word philosophy is far wider than any one religiion or spiritual belief.''

I would agree and very awkwardly and stubbornly say...''Well of course it would.''....lol

''If Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language, then it is wider than the parameters that you mention.''

Well of course it is. However, I was talking about a certain mindset, more than the wider field of play.

''Socrates was not a Christian but was key to the foundation of western philosophy.''

There is no argument there. He was alao a Pagan! :bigrin:

''Ethics, Aesthetics, Logic, Epistemology and several others are all part of philosophy.''

Filling ones head with these is all very well, but if one does not lead a life where one treats others humans, with respect and love, the study of all that jazz means nothing. A member of a rain forest tribe, is just as wise and understanding of the world he lives in and the stars in the sky and the hearts of other humans, as any philosopher. Probably, more so.

''Karl Marx may be seen as a philosopher and Communism may also be argued as a philosophy by some. It may also be argued as a political system...so keep yer pants on about that argument...lol. Communism rejects spirituality and religion.''

Maybe it can...and maybe it can't. It can also be seen as a good excuse for exerting control over a people......a State Religion. Ultimately Communism fails....probably because it does deny spirituality. I did read, that before he died, Karl Marx had come to the conclusion, that he had got it all very wrong.

You can keeps the pants Tenni...lol....I don't wear trousers....lol....and for shame....guess what.....I'm a Socialist!

[Canticle]

Not so surprisin Canticle read Rosetti.. Beeb did a drama serial called "Desperate Romantics" las year.. bout the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood.. wos very gud an all an not hugely innacurate as dramas go.. has meant a big increase in interest in ther art, poetry an readin books bout them an 'bout Lizzie Siddal an all. Ifya get a chance 2catch it on PBS or Beeb 'Merica.. hav lil look see.. is worth the effort..:)

Its fun 2 wotch!!!:tong:

LOL...I don't watch television. I've loved Pre-Raphaelite art since about 1973.....and way back then, watched a series about the Pre-Raphaelites, with Ben Kingsley playing Rosetti. Also been to Ruskin's home. Brantwood, overlooking Conistonwater. Even was naughty and stood at his viewing point window...and it said not to. Drooled over a Burne-Jones and scowled at a Holman-Hunt. Must read the 6 volumes of Ruskin's, Stones of Venice....one of these days. I love the later paintings of Rosetti...but think is poetry is naff.

Ever heard the story about poor Lizzie being the model for John Everett Millais' Ophelia and she had to lie in a bathtub full of water...for the realism. Millais and Rosetti were meant to keep lighting candles under the tub, to keep the water warm. They forgot and poor Lizzie...she caught a chill.

[Canticle]

"’Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.’’‘’

Methinks what you may be referring to, doth not exist…except in someone’s fantasies.

First, many of us know the Trickster of many faces. We may be a bit naive but far from stupid. Don't recall handing you reign as Mum. Appreciate the sentiment but I'm capable enough, too.

...and if you take Adam's words about respecting you, then you are sorely mistaken.

Possibly. Did you read further my post. It was clear I afforded him nothing more than I afford many here, respect. Oft it is said to gain a thing you first give it away.

And finally, my apologies for appearing so brogue with you here as to tack you unto the wall. That's not my intent. Merely further clarifying the perspective. "

You read Rossetti? Damn. Next you'll announce viewing Raffaello via Picaso's moon. And no I don't mean this a snark. I truly am impressed you read Rossetti. Of course, coming from a culture that gave us Coleridge suppose it ought be expected. Wonder if you dare read Arnold.

Void......I never have been....never will be a trickster.....that's if you were referring to me. If someone else...then...whatever....and if a someone else...then No, you don't know the trickster....you really don't.

Never a Mum!!!! Perish the thought!!! It's either Mother or Mummy.

Tack me to the wall???.....LOL.....Not a chance!

''You read Rossetti? Damn. Next you'll announce viewing Raffaello via Picaso's moon. And no I don't mean this a snark. I truly am impressed you read Rossetti. Of course, coming from a culture that gave us Coleridge suppose it ought be expected. Wonder if you dare read Arnold.''

I think I was reading Rossetti, before you were born, I like poetry, but would never claim to be an expert, or as widely read as others. Have your snark, I don't know who or what Raffaello was or is.....though I do know the art of Raphael. I like some Picasso, but I am not a great lover of most of his work. Rossetti's poetry I'm not too fond of, nor Coleridge. Arnold....no I have never read him.

I do believe .that you think me some kind of moron, Void. Well I'm not. You try too hard. It doesn't wash with me.

[darkeyes]

''Canticle
Yes, I am serious. I would like to be respectful of your spiritual perspective. In fact, my own perspective is not Christian but nor is it Wicca or your own belief from what I read here.''

I need to correct you here.....my own belief....I am a Christian Spiritualist. My church is a Christian Spiritualist church. I have moved on slightly in my spiritual beliefs, but as this has been a life long journey, with me now into the 41st year of being a Christian, I still identify, very much, as being basically Christian.

However, my Christian belief has always been a very personal one...not always in favour with other, so called Christians. Like I have never belonged to a church...not until the church I discovered in 2002. I didn't stay because of the belefs....but because of the people.

I've never believed in a virgin birth, or that a Jesus was the Son of God, or that Judas betrayed him. In fact in the last 3-4 years, with my spiritual growth, I have come to realise that I have never believed in a creator God and I think that if there was a man called Jesus...he died on the cross.

What for me, makes me a Christian...is that I believe in the purported words that man preached, but I believe that those word have also been preached by many other men/women...either of religion....or not.

I could go on being a Christian without the Spiritualism....I could not be a Spiritualist without my Christian beliefs. Hope that makes sense.

''After reflecting upon what I posted, I would like to clarify. I was about to post a topic that was not directly related to bisexuality and realized that I had better put my posts where my thoughts are...:eek: I'm not sure where the boundaries are but sensitivity to others beliefs is a good idea for all of us. I include myself. Too much political and religious chatter may divide us or even repulse some posters. I do love a good discussion on these topics though. I'm torn. :(''

There should be no boundaries. If there is no discussion, we do not communicate with, or learn about, the people and teachings of other belief systems. If there is no communication, there is stagnation and ignorance. Where there is stagnation and ignorance, there grows hatred and persecution happens. Where there is hatred and persecution, there is a numbing of the true spiritual growth, which could be achieved. Without that spiritual growth, humankind suffers.

''I am genuinely quite surprised at how often Wicca, Pagan and Spiritualism is posted on this site. It does give me the impression that many bisexuals are really into these belief structures if I didn't know otherwise. I realize that for some reason or other certain vocal posters are inclined to bring this perspective up. I have never seen so much written about Wicca, Pagan, Spiritualism posted on any other site dealing with sexuality or generally. There is also a certain amount of posting about Christian extremists and bigotry toward GLBT. That make much more sense to me than to read these other spiritual aspect coming up as frequently as they do.''

I would ask you. What makes a belief Pagan? To the Romans, Christianity and any other belief system was Pagan. I have heard 21st century creationist Christians, refer to the Roman Catholic Church, as pagan. Does mainstream. non-creationist Christiaity call Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism etc etc, pagan? I have never heard the other religions called pagan and yet, if the Christian church thinks it is the way, the truth and the light, surely, they should be calling other religions pagan.

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as Pagan. The beliefs of Native Americans, the old ''pagan religions''....any belief system which venerates the earth and all on and in it, can never be thought of as pagan. I would not call the beliefs of the Greeks and Romans, pagan. There are spiritual things to be found, in most religion. We are of Spirit. The Spirit moves within us and makes us who we are.

''I think that the poems are interesting on this thread. I think that discussing death is an interesting topic. I think that concepts about an after life may be inevitable to come up on this topic. I was just thinking as I read your post about the more scientific explanation about death and the concept of going to an after life and then returning to this world. I have heard it explained scientifically as the dying of the brain. There is an area of the brain that will hallucinate if cut off from oxygen as the brain is shutting down that causes this concept of travelling through a tunnel, seeing the dead, etc. I also was thinking about what determines a spiritual dream like experience from a delusional hallucination? I suspect that it might involve endangerment to self or others. I'm inclined to think that it is a fine line but that might be an intetesting thread not connected to bisexuality..or maybe better for me to research on my own..;)''

I do not believe in the death of the energy, which some call the soul and I call spirit. I believe that it moves on, to another state. My late mother, once asked me to describe what I thought the Spirit World (paradise, heaven...call it what you will), was like.

I could only describe what I believe, in this way. In the series, Star Trek -Deep Space 9, there was a character, a shape shifter called, Odo. His natural state was liquid. When his home planet was eventually found, he went down to the surface. In front of him was a shimmering lake. It was not a lake. It was his people...all in liquid form, separate and yet one whole.

This was my explanation to her, a highly intelligent woman and she got what what I meant. I believe that what I call the universal essence...the life force, which joins us all....is very much like this, too.

Therefore, for me, death of the body is not the same, as the energy, spirit, soul, moving on. I have read all about the things you mention and also watched documentaries upon the subject. I don't know about near death experiences. I am sceptical myself. I guess that if I had had one, I would think differently.

Any Spiritual experience, which I have had, has been when I was wide awake, and perfectly in control of my senses. I've never hallucinated.....I think that you need certain things to cause hallucination and I neither imbibe, or swallow any. I know people who do see spirit, externally and they too, are not hallucinating. I don't see anything. Sorry to disappoint you there.

However, my son and daughter do. They are not likely to imbibe or take into their bodies anything, to cause halluciations, either. Many people see things. Most don't talk about it, for fear of ridicule. Thankfully, my son and daughter, are not afraid to say that they have seen things. However, being normal and perfectly sane young people, they do not dwell upon such matters and get on with what they are supposed to do...and that is living their lives.

If things are seen, heard, experienced in anyway, due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, illness, an injury to the brain, I would not call that a true experience. For me, things have to be experienced in the cold light of day.

Someone might try to say that the epilepsy I have and the drugs I require to control it, will cause any experience I may have witnessed or felt. Sadly, they would be very wrong. Now if I have back ache and take some codeine and paracetamol, I will get sleepy and maybe have a vivid dream...but anything spiritual.....the hell it will be....lol.

''Now, I also had a good friend who experienced near death. He said that he floated above his body and saw the doctors and his body. He was brought back. I actually have one of his paintings on this after death experience. I would no more ignore his experience than I ignore what science states about death and the hallucinations as the brain is dying. I think that his explanation of his near death experience is much more romantic...lol''

Near death experience, I have commented on. Out of body experience...I don't know. I have a friend...very much alive...who claims to have had one. Maybe she did.....I don't know.

''As to whether Wicca, Christianity etc. form the basis of philosophy, I think that I would be inclined to write that it plays a role in some areas such as Metaphysics and Religion but I think that the word philosophy is far wider than any one religiion or spiritual belief.''

I would agree and very awkwardly and stubbornly say...''Well of course it would.''....lol

''If Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language, then it is wider than the parameters that you mention.''

Well of course it is. However, I was talking about a certain mindset, more than the wider field of play.

''Socrates was not a Christian but was key to the foundation of western philosophy.''

There is no argument there. He was alao a Pagan! :bigrin:

''Ethics, Aesthetics, Logic, Epistemology and several others are all part of philosophy.''

Filling ones head with these is all very well, but if one does not lead a life where one treats others humans, with respect and love, the study of all that jazz means nothing. A member of a rain forest tribe, is just as wise and understanding of the world he lives in and the stars in the sky and the hearts of other humans, as any philosopher. Probably, more so.

''Karl Marx may be seen as a philosopher and Communism may also be argued as a philosophy by some. It may also be argued as a political system...so keep yer pants on about that argument...lol. Communism rejects spirituality and religion.''

Maybe it can...and maybe it can't. It can also be seen as a good excuse for exerting control over a people......a State Religion. Ultimately Communism fails....probably because it does deny spirituality. I did read, that before he died, Karl Marx had come to the conclusion, that he had got it all very wrong.

You can keeps the pants Tenni...lol....I don't wear trousers....lol....and for shame....guess what.....I'm a Socialist!

I can agree with much of this Canticle hun. I dont agree with there being something after my clogs are popped except a reversion to stardust.. and whether Marx recanted at the end is very much something no one can say for sure. I doubt it but who knows. But your and my beliefs are very personal.. they cant be proved one way or other.. neither can those of God believers.. no one has yet come back to tell.. unless of course you count Christ and like you I have my doubts.

There are those even among athiests who believe Jesus was probably a real person.. maybe he was.. no documentary or other evidence for his existence exists from the time he actually lived and died to prove or disprove it other than the scriptures written 30 years and more after his supposed death. That he was not the son of God, or God the Son or whatever people wish to call him is debatable, and I for one think it a terrific fairy tale. A not even very original fairy tale at that... but many believe it and thats fine with me.. you and I are as different from each other as we both are from those who believe in God and the Christ doctrine.

Yet for all our differences I find that you too are a socialist.. it warms the cockles of my heart to know that.. but I also have no doubt that if we sat down and debated our views on socialism, they would be as far apart as our views on Christianity and spirituality..:tong:

[Canticle]

I can agree with much of this Canticle hun. I dont agree with there being something after my clogs are popped except a reversion to stardust.. and whether Marx recanted at the end is very much something no one can say for sure. I doubt it but who knows. But your and my beliefs are very personal.. they cant be proved one way or other.. neither can those of God believers.. no one has yet come back to tell.. unless of course you count Christ and like you I have my doubts.

There are those even among athiests who believe Jesus was probably a real person.. maybe he was.. no documentary or other evidence for his existence exists from the time he actually lived and died to prove or disprove it other than the scriptures written 30 years and more after his supposed death. That he was not the son of God, or God the Son or whatever people wish to call him is debatable, and I for one think it a terrific fairy tale. A not even very original fairy tale at that... but many believe it and thats fine with me.. you and I are as different from each other as we both are from those who believe in God and the Christ doctrine.

Yet for all our differences I find that you too are a socialist.. it warms the cockles of my heart to know that.. but I also have no doubt that if we sat down and debated our views on socialism, they would be as far apart as our views on Christianity and spirituality..:tong:

I guess one ought to go to Kensal Green Cemetery....and shout at that old devil with the beard, but would he hear....''Oi, Karl....did ya realise it was all a lot of claptrap, after all''.......Nah......he'd be snoring too much to hear the dulcet tones of this English rose.

Yes, Fran.....I'm a Socialist.....but like any other beliefs...ideas....it's a very personal view. Let's face it....I am a Socialist who votes for a Conservative MP. Why do I do that? Simple...he is a darn good MP...and I'd vote for him....whatever his political colour. He asks questions...he keeps asking questions....he looks into every problem that people have....and he gets mighty and frustrated when he can't get a result.

I studied British Constitution and one thing sticks in my memory. If you have a good MP...what ever his party...hang on to him. I got an 'A' too...so I must have quite good at the subject....LOL!

I know why I am a Socialist.....my Dad. Not because he was a political activist, nor because he voted Labour (which he did)....but because of who he was. Born at a time when a lot of working class lads didn't get the chance of an education, he had to leave school and go straight ito the Mill ad then joined the Army.

When he came back to Blighty, he trained as a Sheet Metal Worker...a skilled man...and yet throughout his working life, this skilled man got no pay when he was sick and no pay when he was on holiday. He also suffered with an ulcer for 30 years and sometimes had to almost crawl to work, so that he could feed his family, living on steamed fish and bread and milk.

Yet this man was not stupid and any artistic skills I have, I get from him and I have passed those down to my children. He lived for nine years after his retirement and then we watched him die from lung cancer. He was a fine man, loved and respected by all who knew him. I respect him more and more each year.

I have a son who is exactly like him and a daughter he watches over, even though she never knew him. Her grandad Bill is very much a real grandad for her, as is her paternal grandfather. I've been told by many Mediums that he watches over my daughter and one day, we were in my bedroom, and sat on my bed, sorting some pictures or something out...can't remember. My daughter suddenly said...in a very matter of fact manner...the way we do at 17....''Oh, by the way, I saw grandad Bill in my room, a couple of weeks ago''....Mother is sat there...mouth open and managed an, ''Oh'' and then a ''What happened''....''I was doing my homework, looked up and there he was''.......

I believe she saw him. She has seen him since and very often will say...''he's over there''.....It pleases me to think that he might be around,,,but I don't dwell upon it and she most certainly does not. Too busy being nearly 21.

I wish he had had the chance to be educated. He was artistic, in a practical way and he was good at maths and boy, could he make a mean Victoria sponge and the best cup of tea in the world.

I miss him and I wish I had appreciated him as much before he passed. That's why I'm a Socialist. My Dad. And Dennis Potter was responsible for me becoming a Christian....but that's another story...LOL.

[void()]

"I think I was reading Rossetti, before you were born,

From reading your post to dark_eyes, you were reading Rossetti from 1973 on. I was born in 1972, I know it's not much but it is what it is. :)

I like poetry, but would never claim to be an expert, or as widely read as others. Have your snark, I don't know who or what Raffaello was or is.....though I do know the art of Raphael.


Um, Raffaello is Rapheal's proper Italian name. And I remain and will remain earnest about not snarking.


I like some Picasso, but I am not a great lover of most of his work. Rossetti's poetry I'm not too fond of, nor Coleridge. Arnold....no I have never read him.

Here's Buried Life for you, one of Arnold's that has stuck with me for a quite a spell.

Matthew Arnold (1822-1888)
The Buried Life

1Light flows our war of mocking words, and yet,
2Behold, with tears mine eyes are wet!
3I feel a nameless sadness o'er me roll.
4Yes, yes, we know that we can jest,
5We know, we know that we can smile!
6But there's a something in this breast,
7To which thy light words bring no rest,
8And thy gay smiles no anodyne.
9Give me thy hand, and hush awhile,
10And turn those limpid eyes on mine,
11And let me read there, love! thy inmost soul.

12Alas! is even love too weak
13To unlock the heart, and let it speak?
14Are even lovers powerless to reveal
15To one another what indeed they feel?
16I knew the mass of men conceal'd
17Their thoughts, for fear that if reveal'd
18They would by other men be met
19With blank indifference, or with blame reproved;
20I knew they lived and moved
21Trick'd in disguises, alien to the rest
22Of men, and alien to themselves--and yet
23The same heart beats in every human breast!

24But we, my love!--doth a like spell benumb
25Our hearts, our voices?--must we too be dumb?

26Ah! well for us, if even we,
27Even for a moment, can get free
28Our heart, and have our lips unchain'd;
29For that which seals them hath been deep-ordain'd!

30Fate, which foresaw
31How frivolous a baby man would be--
32By what distractions he would be possess'd,
33How he would pour himself in every strife,
34And well-nigh change his own identity--
35That it might keep from his capricious play
36His genuine self, and force him to obey
37Even in his own despite his being's law,
38Bade through the deep recesses of our breast
39The unregarded river of our life
40Pursue with indiscernible flow its way;
41And that we should not see
42The buried stream, and seem to be
43Eddying at large in blind uncertainty,
44Though driving on with it eternally.

45But often, in the world's most crowded streets,
46But often, in the din of strife,
47There rises an unspeakable desire
48After the knowledge of our buried life;
49A thirst to spend our fire and restless force
50In tracking out our true, original course;
51A longing to inquire
52Into the mystery of this heart which beats
53So wild, so deep in us--to know
54Whence our lives come and where they go.
55And many a man in his own breast then delves,
56But deep enough, alas! none ever mines.
57And we have been on many thousand lines,
58And we have shown, on each, spirit and power;
59But hardly have we, for one little hour,
60Been on our own line, have we been ourselves--
61Hardly had skill to utter one of all
62The nameless feelings that course through our breast,
63But they course on for ever unexpress'd.
64And long we try in vain to speak and act
65Our hidden self, and what we say and do
66Is eloquent, is well--but 't is not true!
67And then we will no more be rack'd
68With inward striving, and demand
69Of all the thousand nothings of the hour
70Their stupefying power;
71Ah yes, and they benumb us at our call!
72Yet still, from time to time, vague and forlorn,
73From the soul's subterranean depth upborne
74As from an infinitely distant land,
75Come airs, and floating echoes, and convey
76A melancholy into all our day.
77Only--but this is rare--
78When a belovèd hand is laid in ours,
79When, jaded with the rush and glare
80Of the interminable hours,
81Our eyes can in another's eyes read clear,
82When our world-deafen'd ear
83Is by the tones of a loved voice caress'd--
84A bolt is shot back somewhere in our breast,
85And a lost pulse of feeling stirs again.
86The eye sinks inward, and the heart lies plain,
87And what we mean, we say, and what we would, we know.
88A man becomes aware of his life's flow,
89And hears its winding murmur; and he sees
90The meadows where it glides, the sun, the breeze.

91And there arrives a lull in the hot race
92Wherein he doth for ever chase
93That flying and elusive shadow, rest.
94An air of coolness plays upon his face,
95And an unwonted calm pervades his breast.
96And then he thinks he knows
97The hills where his life rose,
98And the sea where it goes.



I do believe .that you think me some kind of moron, Void. Well I'm not. You try too hard. It doesn't wash with me.

Believe as you will, even if incorrect. I don't think you a moron at all. I do not try hard enough to be honest. I have a fear of actually stepping up and making full use and application of the gifts bestowed, for leading to success. There's a stigma regarding power absolute corrupting as so. Really prefer not to be royal jerk that can astound you with one hundred quid lexicon when a mere farthing does as well. As for what washes or doesn't, again believe as you will.

"

[Canticle]

''From reading your post to dark_eyes, you were reading Rossetti from 1973 on. I was born in 1972, I know it's not much but it is what it is. :)''

Wrong.....I've loved Pre-Raphaelite art since about 1973.......the poetry of Rossetti, came much later. :rolleyes:

Um, Raffaello is Rapheal's proper Italian name. And I remain and will remain earnest about not snarking.

Ah...I was misled.....for I had toyed with idea of you meaning Raphael.....but was sure that there was only one 'f' in the Italian.....and anyway...was that not his ''professonal'' name.....I'm sure he had a given name...rather different
from Raphael. I hate to point something out to you..... Rapheal's
;)

By the way...I loathe the works of Raphael. Now...Giotto or Hieronymous Bosch....quite another matter.

Believe as you will, even if incorrect. I don't think you a moron at all. I do not try hard enough to be honest. I have a fear of actually stepping up and making full use and application of the gifts bestowed, for leading to success. There's a stigma regarding power absolute corrupting as so. Really prefer not to be royal jerk that can astound you with one hundred quid lexicon when a mere farthing does as well. As for what washes or doesn't, again believe as you will.

LOL......You leave one almost speechless and gasping for air. :tong:

The Arnold was interesting...though immensely depressing.......(I have forgotten....are there two ''e''s in immensely......Ho Hum.

You guessed........I always believe what I will...........:tongue:

[void()]

Bingo. The script roll just became unglued. A troll enters the net.
Too many little things sum it up.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Oh good grief. Twy! End this thread before it become a 15 page thesis paper somewhere. Stick a fork in it you guys, its over done.
Hey Twy, Riss, and Duckie and a cpl others..lets got to the pub..lol
Cat

[TwylaTwobits]

ROFLMAO Cat, let's go me and Duckie are definitely up for it.

And agreed, this simple thread about the topic of death has led to a discussion of politics. Get a grip guys. Drew please lock this thread.

[Canticle]

Bingo. The script roll just became unglued. A troll enters the net.
Too many little things sum it up.

Don't know who you mean, Void, but it sure as hell isn't me. Do you reckon that your little digs are clever, because they are not. Your attempts, at deciding who and what. are this and that, merely come over as very deliberately worded, flowery, pseuso-intellectual nonsense.

Too true...too many things sum it up. You and others are obsessed with trolls...and I've not see such an obsesseion on any other site and you only like things to be said in a certain manner. Get a grip Void, this is a web site. There is a real world out there. If people cannot exchange views and threads cannot be allowed to change course, then people are not communicating properly.

Twyla, I think my reply to Fran was quite appropriate. I was talking about my Dad, as having been an inspiration to me. A man who was the best you could find and he departed this life in 1984. Each year, I miss him more and more...appreciate him more and more. That's no poem....but like a poem...those words express thoughts and feelings.

And you want a thread locked! Sheesh, bang goes freedom of thought being expressed....once again.

[Canticle]

Oh good grief. Twy! End this thread before it become a 15 page thesis paper somewhere. Stick a fork in it you guys, its over done.
Hey Twy, Riss, and Duckie and a cpl others..lets got to the pub..lol
Cat

Expressing what one believes, the ideas one has, the thoughts which go through ones head and getting them down on paper, or in type, can never be ''over done.'' How sad that you feel that something should be ended, because the thread has changed coiurse slightly and although keeping to a basically spiritual theme, has branched out in other directions (except for the ridiculous troll calling...as usual). This change is called, ''evolution''......but you would like to see evolution stifled. How sad.

[rissababynta]

Oh good grief. Twy! End this thread before it become a 15 page thesis paper somewhere. Stick a fork in it you guys, its over done.
Hey Twy, Riss, and Duckie and a cpl others..lets got to the pub..lol
Cat

I got a better idea, why don't you all come over to my house where there is FREE alcohol ;)

[rissababynta]

Well...at least I understand why you would want the thread closed...:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

Don't know who you mean, Void, but it sure as hell isn't me. Do you reckon that your little digs are clever, because they are not. Your attempts, at deciding who and what. are this and that, merely come over as very deliberately worded, flowery, pseuso-intellectual nonsense.

Too true...too many things sum it up. You and others are obsessed with trolls...and I've not see such an obsesseion on any other site and you only like things to be said in a certain manner. Get a grip Void, this is a web site. There is a real world out there. If people cannot exchange views and threads cannot be allowed to change course, then people are not communicating properly.

Twyla, I think my reply to Fran was quite appropriate. I was talking about my Dad, as having been an inspiration to me. A man who was the best you could find and he departed this life in 1984. Each year, I miss him more and more...appreciate him more and more. That's no poem....but like a poem...those words express thoughts and feelings.

And you want a thread locked! Sheesh, bang goes freedom of thought being expressed....once again.

Obsession with Trollies Canticle? I've put my ore in about that from time to time. Voidie isnt the only oneas you will have noticed.. being obsessed and goin gaga bout the buggers only encourages them...

..and I agree with u about locking down the thread. Why? I can see no reason whatever but maybe cat and Twyla can enlighten us...

My dad thankfully is alive and very hale and hearty, and I adore the old gett. He more than anyone has been my inspiration for so many things. O I know he spoils me, and I have always played on that much to the chagrin of my elder brother and sister. Yet there are good reasons for why we are so close. We have much the same warped sense of humour, and both of us are a bit childlike. Ever since I can remember it has been him and me against the world. It was he, like your dad with you who gave me my grounding into socialism, and he who more than anyone encouraged me never to allow the world to grind me down.

He isn't like your dad Twyla. He is a baby boomer, and has all of his life lived under the welfare state. Coming from a mining family his father made it clear from a very young age that he was never to go down the pit. My granpa worked like a trojan to ensure that his children would never struggle like he had, and would never want. He worked hard to provide all the resources for them to get the education he believed was their right.

I am considered middle class, although my attitudes are those of the old working class, because my dad has never lost sight of his roots. He knows and is eternally grateful for the sacrifices his father made for him to get where he is today, and he has made sure my brother, sister and I remember what working people have gone through so that we and our generation and the generations yet to come never endure the misery of those who went before. He has made a very good career for himself and is pretty well off.. Mum too, and they make a wonderful team. He more than anyone was crestfallen when I decided to finally leave the Labour Party. Yet he stood back and did not criticise.. he listened and understood and accepted I have my own life to lead. He accepted that the Labour Party no longer played any part in my life and that differences were both irreconcilable and irreversible.

We are products of our ubringing as I have often said in the past. The person I am, and the attitudes I have, and the beliefs I hold are due more to my dad than to any other human being. Spoiled sure. I am certainly that. But not in a bad or nasty way I think. When my old man dies, it will hit home in a way which I know you will understand. No one can lose their mentor, their confidante, their oldest and dearest friend, their adored father and not have that leave a hole in their heart. He has always been there for me at the best and worst of times. I don't dwell on it, but it terrifies me that some day he will just not be there any more and sometimes at unexpected moments I break down in uncontrollable tears at that very thought.

It is my dad who coined the name "darkeyes" when I was very little. Deep dark and mysterious he used to say. Ha... shows what he knows.. but maybe when I was little I dont know. Nowadays he calls me Frankie like the rest of my family. I hate it and they know it, but they all persist..but when it rolls off his tongue there is a love and gentleness which comes through like from no one else. When my dad calls me Frankie it says to me I'm truly special.

God I've gone on so.. I'm sorry. I can talk about my dad till the cows come home.. he may think me special.. but it is nothing to how I feel about him...:)

[Canticle]

DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Dylan Thomas


Death the Leveller


The glories of our blood and state

Are shadows, not substantial things;

There is no armour against Fate;

Death lays his icy hand on kings:

Sceptre and Crown

Must tumble down,

And in the dust be equal made

With the poor crooked scythe and spade.



Some men with swords may reap the field,

And plant fresh laurels where they kill:

But their strong nerves at last must yield;

They tame but one another still:

Early or late

They stoop to fate,

And must give up their murmuring breath

When they, pale captives, creep to death.


The garlands wither on your brow;

Then boast no more your mighty deeds!

Upon Death's purple altar now

See where the victor-victim bleeds.

Your heads must come

To the cold tomb:

Only the actions of the just

Smell sweet and blossom in their dust.

James Shirley (1596-1666)

[tenni]

Canticle
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would like to add a few thoughts.
First, My first statement about Christians etc. was not directed at you and your beliefs but thanks for expanding your perspective. I also note that Cat and Rissa are begging that this thread stop and they want to go to the "pub" or get drunk together. That is an example of some posters wanting to emote on this site and damn the other comments. In my opinion this seems to reinforce a perspective that there is a controlling clique mentality on this site.

As far as Marx, those of us from societies with universal healthcare are not the ones who might choke about discussing the positives of Communism. Oh, I can not resist commenting on Socrates as a pagan. Now, the way that I see it is that Socrates lived an era many years prior to the birth of Christ. It is the Christians that used the term "pagan" in a derogatory word to refer to non Christians. Since the gods of Socrates' time were the mainstream belief of his society, it seems inappropriate to apply a term to Socrates that was not used in the way that it is used today. I believe that "pagan" meant "country dweller" at one time?

Cheers, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts. I agree with you about the illness on this site perhaps from here forth called "trollphobia"....:bigrin:

[rissababynta]

Canticle
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would like to add a few thoughts.
First, My first statement about Christians etc. was not directed at you and your beliefs but thanks for expanding your perspective. I also note that Cat and Rissa are begging that this thread stop and they want to go to the "pub" or get drunk together. That is an example of some posters wanting to emote on this site and damn the other comments. In my opinion this seems to reinforce a perspective that there is a controlling clique mentality on this site.





Excuse me, I am not BEGGING for this to be shut down, I simply said that I understood why Cat and Twyla would want it shut down. As for the pub, Cat said we should all go and I said instead of that, just come to my house and get it free.

I grow tired of having to constantly rewrite what I clearly say in this forum JUST so you don't make me look like an asshole Tenni. From now on when referring to me, please make sure you read what I write first cause this is starting to get annoying. If I look like a jerk because of something I do or say, then so be it. I refuse to look like an idiot because you can't seem to grasp what people say. That is just bullshit.

As another note...I'm beginning to think that perhaps you are just jealous that you aren't in any particular kind of clique;)

[Canticle]

Canticle
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would like to add a few thoughts.
First, My first statement about Christians etc. was not directed at you and your beliefs but thanks for expanding your perspective. I also note that Cat and Rissa are begging that this thread stop and they want to go to the "pub" or get drunk together. That is an example of some posters wanting to emote on this site and damn the other comments. In my opinion this seems to reinforce a perspective that there is a controlling clique mentality on this site.

As far as Marx, those of us from societies with universal healthcare are not the ones who might choke about discussing the positives of Communism. Oh, I can not resist commenting on Socrates as a pagan. Now, the way that I see it is that Socrates lived an era many years prior to the birth of Christ. It is the Christians that used the term "pagan" in a derogatory word to refer to non Christians. Since the gods of Socrates' time were the mainstream belief of his society, it seems inappropriate to apply a term to Socrates that was not used in the way that it is used today. I believe that "pagan" meant "country dweller" at one time?

Cheers, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts. I agree with you about the illness on this site perhaps from here forth called "trollphobia"....:bigrin:


As far as Socrates goes.....his beliefs (if he had any), would have been seen as pagan to others. One man's meat, is another man's poison. One man's heaven, is another man's hell. I don't know the original meaning of the word ''pagan,'' but what you posted seems reasonable to me. Oh...and I did understand that the points you made, were not aimed at me personally.

[Samalina]

Rissa can I come over for some drinks? After reading this thread I sure as hell need a drink. :tongue:

[rissababynta]

The more the merrier. I've got Arbor Mist :bigrin:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

This change is called, ''evolution''......but you would like to see evolution stifled. How sad.

I said stick a fork in it because it was and IS getting ridiculous with these long assed posts that have totally diviated from Twy's original meaning! I'm not knocking evolution or religious nor spiritual beliefs, with my heritage that would be the Last thing I would do.
This has just gotten waaay out of hand with the comments by morons, the run downs, and all of the un-needed retoric that has drowned Twy's original meaning.
Good Thread Twy, lets go fuel up the Leer...lol Riss, put the goodies on ice and fire up the BBQ! lol
Cat, done with the subject

[Canticle]

This change is called, ''evolution''......but you would like to see evolution stifled. How sad.

I said stick a fork in it because it was and IS getting ridiculous with these long assed posts that have totally diviated from Twy's original meaning! I'm not knocking evolution or religious nor spiritual beliefs, with my heritage that would be the Last thing I would do.
This has just gotten waaay out of hand with the comments by morons, the run downs, and all of the un-needed retoric that has drowned Twy's original meaning.
Good Thread Twy, lets go fuel up the Leer...lol Riss, put the goodies on ice and fire up the BBQ! lol
Cat, done with the subject

By evolution, I was talking about the thread evolving, changing direction, changing it's pace, coming back to it's origin and then moving on again. Not evolution, in scientific terms, as in the origin of the species.

What you call ''long assed posts.'' are to others, their way of expressing their intellectual and spiritual and personal views. If the poems posted have led the way, for the thread to evolve, in such a manner, then this is what was meant to happen and it has not deviated from the original aim. People have been made to think about a subject and put down, in type, exactly what they feel deep inside.

''This has just gotten waaay out of hand with the comments by morons, the run downs, and all of the un-needed retoric that has drowned Twy's original meaning.''

I have not noticed that the thread has got out of hand, not in any way.

Which are the comments by ''the morons''...who are these people. I have seen perfectly intelligent posts, made by intelligent people.

What are the ''run downs''? I am not sure what that refers to....content of posts or posters.

What may seem unneeded rhetoric to you, appears as intelligent discourse, to others.

Nothing has been drowned. It has been added to and where someone may have made remarks, which are incorrect, those do have to be addressed.

A more worthy subject, could not have been raised up, as a discussion point. Whether the subject is covered by poetry, or prose; death, spirituality and connected subjects, are bound to be brought into the conversation.

In the midst of life, we are in death and in the midst of death, we are in life. An ending and a new beginning. It's interesting to see how people think, whether in poetry held dear to them, or just their own deep and long held beliefs.

[rissababynta]

*facepalm*

Waiter...check please?

[Long Duck Dong]

What you call ''long assed posts.'' are to others, their way of expressing their intellectual and spiritual and personal views. If the poems posted have led the way, for the thread to evolve, in such a manner, then this is what was meant to happen and it has not deviated from the original aim. People have been made to think about a subject and put down, in type, exactly what they feel deep inside.


canticle..... simplify..... that is the key

there are people that wish to express their view, I agree.....and I have no objection to the sharing of beliefs

but it shows the difference between people that have a simple and simplistic view of things.... and those that like to over complicate the simple things as to them, having a well worded, * intelligent * novel of a post, is the correct way of expressing their feelings and opinions

I am curious, would the same people go to a poetry reading and talk like that.... or would they have the ability to just listen and share a few words

intelligence is not measured in how many big words a person uses or how big the post is, but how simplistically they can express a simple view for the masses....

albert einstein was a genius, very astute man, yet E=MC2... something most of the world can understang.....a very simplistic term... yet says so much

I quess my point is simply that some of us can see the sky and admire it
others can see the sky and need to post about the colour spectrum in relations to the direct influence of carbon gases on a set angle that is parallel to the direct center of the gradient of the earth from the equator to the north pole at 3.12 am on sunday the 24th of november 2009

while people have the right to share and post in forums, some of us love the basic, simplistic beauty of wisdom in a few verses.... and it would be nice to have a thread like that without the other view points about religion, politics and opposition to beliefs in it

[Canticle]

''canticle..... simplify..... that is the key''

Umm LDD, what I put in any post about spirituality, is a simplified version of what I am thinking, of what I understand and what I believe. I am a wordy person. I am a writer of long letters....the record was 52 pages I believe. I put what is in my heart, mind and spirit. If I did anything differently, I would not be expressing myself as me.

''there are people that wish to express their view, I agree.....and I have no objection to the sharing of beliefs''

See above.

''but it shows the difference between people that have a simple and simplistic view of things.... and those that like to over complicate the simple things as to them, having a well worded, * intelligent * novel of a post, is the correct way of expressing their feelings and opinions''

All is simple and simplistic...all is deep and unfathommable (sp). How I write is the correct way and only way for me. Blame spirit...not the writer of the words. They lead me on my pathway and on my journey of uderstanding.

''I am curious, would the same people go to a poetry reading and talk like that.... or would they have the ability to just listen and share a few words''

Me....I'd listen and talk....and I would probably be reading some of the poetry.

''intelligence is not measured in how many big words a person uses or how big the post is, but how simplistically they can express a simple view for the masses....''

Correct...which is why I despise anyone who churns out words. to make them seem intellectually far superior to others. You'll not see me use long words, that are unnecessary.

''albert einstein was a genius, very astute man, yet E=MC2... something most of the world can understang.....a very simplistic term... yet says so much''

Einstein.....genius...maybe....great scientist...sure.....but adulterous husband and not a very good father. Another of those who maybe thought himself the most important thing in existence.

''I quess my point is simply that some of us can see the sky and admire it
others can see the sky and need to post about the colour spectrum in relations to the direct influence of carbon gases on a set angle that is parallel to the direct center of the gradient of the earth from the equator to the north pole at 3.12 am on sunday the 24th of november 2009''

Oh.....I'm with you on just appreciating the night sky and wondering at it...even though it's nice to know the astronomy, too. I'll leave it to someone I know, to go into very great detail about atoms and particles. Me...I'm just wondering why the ice cream tastes so good.

''while people have the right to share and post in forums, some of us love the basic, simplistic beauty of wisdom in a few verses.... and it would be nice to have a thread like that without the other view points about religion, politics and opposition to beliefs in it''

Oh, LDD, you know that is an impossibility. The nature of the beast makes us thinkers and doers and writers down of all that comes. Hence the need to have a pencil balanced upon the ear at all times. Verses trigger thoughts, memories, things that need to be shared. When I was writing prose, I came to understand what great writers meant, when they said they had to write, not wanted to. If you don't get those words down on paper.....you explode.

And I think you can take what I said about the pencil balanced upon the ear ;)

[Long Duck Dong]

thats the thing canticle, there are things that can never be expressed in words.... yet people try to do it any way.....

embracing death as a friend, mentor, teacher.... a short sentence yet says so much to those that understand it.... but there is no way to express it beyond a few words, than over complicate it.....

a wise person is not the one that talks, but the one that listens and speaks a few short words, for they know how to answer a person in a way that says more and shares more, than a book could

[Canticle]

''thats the thing canticle, there are things that can never be expressed in words.... yet people try to do it any way.....''

I would agree....if we were discussing face to face, human to human contact, in the real sense of the words, but this is a forum, where words have to be used, to express inner most feelings and thoughts. Thus, we all do it differently.

''embracing death as a friend, mentor, teacher.... a short sentence yet says so much to those that understand it.... but there is no way to express it beyond a few words, than over complicate it..... ''

I have to begin by saying, I don't believe in death. By that, I mean death of the spirit. The spirit world is our true home and when the mortal shell dies, the spirit is released, to return home. Upon the earth plain we learn, we interact, we live a life.

I think the rest of this paragraph, I covered in my first.

''a wise person is not the one that talks, but the one that listens and speaks a few short words, for they know how to answer a person in a way that says more and shares more, than a book could''

A wise person is one that knows, before there is the need to listen. That is the mark of a true sensitive...a true empath. In real situations, I would agree, that less means more.

In September I heard that a friend was terminally ill, with but a few weeks to live. Two days later, her husband died. At his funeral...at the ''wake,'' I said to my friend....''There are no words'' and kissed her forehead. Six weeks later she was dead. At her funeral, I merely said to her daughter, ''They're fine, they are together now''......and she knew that. So it is true...words are not always needed.....but very often they are.

[void()]

Tad of info. Pagan comes from the Latin pagani, those who live in the hills. Folks living in the hills were often kept uneducated. At least they lacked what the Church viewed as education so, yeah it became a slur to call folk pagan.

Excuse me, withdrawing now. I tire of strife.

[jamiehue]

In the poetry thread today herbwoman posted a poem i liked that very much. Ps. this is lively this discussion but the next thread should be called say something people for those who never post maybe they feel intimidated by the goings on.

[Doggie_Wood]

Adam just because you are emotionally and spiritually constipated, it doesnt mean that the rest of us are.

Go on back under the rock, and have a cookie.
Cat

ROFLMAOAASM - Gawd Cat - you kill me - I laughed for a good five or ten minutes. You're precious Cat. LOL :bigrin: