phobia or opinion

[Long Duck Dong]

lately in the site I have noticed more and more the usage of the terms LGBT phobic, gay phobia, trans phobia, les bhoiba, bi phobia.....etc etc

now with a background that have involved a lot of work in the research of mental ailments and illnesses.... I am some what familiar with phobias... and the hell that phobia sufferers can go thru.....

so its amusing to see how we are quick to generalise a person as a phobic......
so I copied a few things from wikipedia when I googled phobia

A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, phóbos, fear or morbid fear), is an intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, or people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive and unreasonable desire to avoid the feared subject. When the fear is beyond one's control, and if the fear is interfering with daily life, then a diagnosis under one of the anxiety disorders can be made.[1]

now I guess that we can safely assume that the people we label as phobix cos of differing opinions, are not mentally ill or ailing...... so I went back to the site again.....and found

Aha

Non-clinical uses of the term
Main article: -phob-

It is possible for an individual to develop a phobia over virtually anything. The name of a phobia generally contains a Greek word for what the patient fears plus the suffix -phobia. Creating these terms is something of a word game. Few of these terms are found in medical literature. However, this does not necessarily make it a non-psychological condition.
[edit] Terms indicating prejudice or class discrimination
See also: List of anti-ethnic and anti-national terms

A number of terms with the suffix -phobia are primarily understood as negative attitudes towards certain categories of people or other things, used in an analogy with the medical usage of the term. Usually these kinds of "phobias" are described as fear, dislike, disapproval, prejudice, hatred, discrimination, or hostility towards the object of the "phobia". Often this attitude is based on prejudices and is a particular case of general xenophobia.

Class discrimination is not always considered a phobia in the clinical sense because it is believed to be only a symptom of other psychological issues, or the result of ignorance, or of political or social beliefs. In other words, unlike clinical phobias, which are usually qualified with disabling fear, class discrimination usually has roots in social relations.


we have the non clinical terminology that covers LGBT phobia.....

the advantage of this class of phobia is that a person doesn't have to be certified in the fields of clinical psychologist and psycho therapy to *diagnosis * such a phobic condition

we just need to be versed in the ability to be judgmental .....

being judgmental is brilliant is the simple respect that we just need to make the statement about a person for it to be right in our eyes.....and omg its a powerful tool in the battle against nay sayers

A ) I feel uncomfortable around gay people
B ) OMG GAY PHOBIA..........

A ) I am not sure that I can be in the same work place as a trans person
B) HOLY SHIT YOU TRANS PHOBIC

A ) I do not think that bisexuality is more than a fetish
B) DIE YOU BI PHOBIC......

oh the power of being judgemental

now the down fall of being judgmental is that you have to judge something
it can be a statement, a expression, a comment, a post...... etc etc

now the glory of being judgemental, is that you can slam anything as phobic if it doesn't support your point of view

A) I dislike strawberry ice cream
b) that is a opinion.... but I think I could call you strawberry ice cream phobic

A) I hate the democrats
B ) that is a statement....and a lot of us hate them but cos I am a democrat I therefore label you a democratphobic

A) I dislike the way the LGBT walk the streets in parades and cause disruption
B) OMGWTFBBG LGBTPHOBIC.... BLASPHEMY, SACRILEDGE, RUBHARB, WAFFLES, DEEP FRIED ICE CREAM......

but seriously....

at what point is a opinion a case of phobia..... I am very curious as I have seen a number of people labeled as phobics now in this site...by people that make the same statements worded slightly differently......and to me its a opinion .....not a phobia

to be a case of phobic expression is something like
Bisexuals do not exist, they are mere liars that care only about sex and I would not have them near me.....

that to me is a phobic statement.... it clearly states that the person has a dislike of bisexuals ....and degrades them... but the key point is the dislike in the statement
note I use the term dislike..... not hatred or hate speech.....

but its clear that I am one person, I see and percieve things differently
so I need to get a better view point....

what differs the different between

a opinion

a statement

a dislike / degrading opinion or statement

phobic / hate speech

now remember, I know how to define them I wanna see examples from person on how they define the differences cos seriously I have see a number of people in the site now called phobic for simple statements that are defining points of point..... not anti LGBT statements

[cand86]

A lot of times people bring up this argument, and I'd say that the -phobia suffix has become something used by lay people, and, due to that, has evolved to have two meanings, the clinical psychology term describing a real disorder, and a second, more casual meaning.

It's the way we use "xenophobia" nowadays- when someone is accused of xenophobia, nobody is trying to say that they have a literal fear of foreigners. The meaning has changed to something further away.

Now, when it comes to the ol' "Is it bigoted or just an opinion?" question, I tend to say that the difference is in the logic and rationale behind the sentiments. A lot of people labeled as homophobic/transphobic/whatever have no justification for their opposition to said things, and that, to me, does seem to fit. Others, who, say, oppose homosexuality but have good, rational reasons, can't be called "homophobes" in my book, although it often happens anyways.

[MarieDelta]

trans-phobia or homo-phobia isnt so much a fear as it is a prejudice or hatred of trans or gay folks. its evolved something like this people hate what they fear therefore they fear being or dealing with the people they treat with hatred.

An opinion is : I think trans people should dress better.

A phobic statement is: I cant stand working with trans - people, they creep me out. They're all a bunch of perverts.

See the difference?

[Long Duck Dong]

A lot of times people bring up this argument, and I'd say that the -phobia suffix has become something used by lay people, and, due to that, has evolved to have two meanings, the clinical psychology term describing a real disorder, and a second, more casual meaning.

It's the way we use "xenophobia" nowadays- when someone is accused of xenophobia, nobody is trying to say that they have a literal fear of foreigners. The meaning has changed to something further away.

Now, when it comes to the ol' "Is it bigoted or just an opinion?" question, I tend to say that the difference is in the logic and rationale behind the sentiments. A lot of people labeled as homophobic/transphobic/whatever have no justification for their opposition to said things, and that, to me, does seem to fit. Others, who, say, oppose homosexuality but have good, rational reasons, can't be called "homophobes" in my book, although it often happens anyways.

you raise a interesting point with the *oppose homosexuality but have good rational reasons * and I will be interested to see what others think of that statement

myself I can think of a number of different areas and aspects that a *opposing homosexuality * stance is not being homophobic at all.... but in the best interests of wellbeing and safety.......
at this stage I will not share the areas, so that others have the chance to post their views on that statement.... and see how many * hit or miss * the possible viewpoints .....

[tenni]

Just an opinion????

It would seem to me that opinions and phobic thoughts or labels are not mutually exclusive. An opinion is an emotional response rather than a factual response. Some opinions may represent the person's phobic thoughts while others may not. If the opinion is an irrational fear of a group of individuals to the point where the person practices discriminatory actions, then there is a problem.

[Long Duck Dong]

maybe so tenni.... but can you post a example laying them out so that people can better relate to what you are saying......

I am trying to see if there is a stronger response to certain subjects that are more likely to cause a cry of phobic statement, based around sexuality more than gender......and I am not judging anybodies examples as right or wrong.... but merely posting how I as a bi gender bisexual, see them.....

[tenni]

hmmm examples
Well, when I read a post by a person on this site, I (and I assume others) begin to develop opinions about that person. If they are describing something that is outside of my personal experience, I may find that I have a variety of emotional reactions. I may be excited, concerned, intrigued, compassionate, fearful, or a variety of other emotions. I begin to form an opinion of that person. If I sense discomfort and concern about what I am reading in their posts, I begin to develop a negative opinion towards them. If what I read later in a post by them begins to alter my emotional reaction to them, I may change my opinion. I think that I may be phobic at a point when I am no longer willing to alter my perspective towards the individual and begin to generalize my negativity not only towards them but a group that they self identify with. When I begin to negatively label a group by my personal experience with one individual from the group, or even worse hearsay, I may becoming phobic rather than just having a negative opinion about an individual. On the other hand, if I experience a lot of negative emotional reactions based upon multi experiences with individuals of a group, I may begin to generalize a negative opinion of a group. My negative experience may be rational based upon my own real experiences. I think that may not be phobic. The question would be whether I am bringing about negativity from the various members of that group. Is my prejudice based upon unrealistic fear or realistic fear? Will I remain open when meeting other members of that group? I may have developed a prejudice with cause and be very cautious about interacting with other members of that group. It may be better to develop boundaries for the interactions if my fear is justified as in fear of personal safety.

Now, I am still working in the realm of generalities and may not be specific enough for you. However, you wrote in a more generalized manner yourself...lol

[jeannie_TG]

A couple of example statements were made to illustrate phobic statements. Neither of them does so in the least bit as neither statement shows any sign of "intense and persistent fear" of anything.

Those statements are...

*

"Bisexuals do not exist, they are mere liars that care only about sex and I would not have them near me....."

... and ...

"I cant stand working with trans - people, they creep me out. They're all a bunch of perverts."

*

The first statement shows denial, discomfort and dislike. The second shows discomfort and dislike.

Both include labels which help us understand the person making the statements... "liars"... "perverts".

The first statement seems to show someone who denies the existence of, is uncomfortable with, and dislikes bisexuals because they were once (or more than once) lied to be one or more bisexuals who only cared about sex. Seems more like that person has had some bad experiences dating (or trying to date) bisexuals. The part about "I would not have them near me" does not show "intense and persistent fear" either. It merely shows the person does not want to be around bisexuals because (considering the seeming underlying rationale) has had bad experiences with them.

The second statement seems to show someone who is uncomfortable with, and dislikes them because they don't do it the natural way, they pervert it.

*

My point to this being that how can people come to understand something when those teaching it, giving examples of it, etc... give incorrect examples of it?

A correct example would be something like...

I cannot deal with being around LGBT (take your pick) people. I'm deeply afraid of them. I've always been deeply afraid of them. I avoid them at all cost.

That statement illustrates "intense and persistent fear". It is also the type of statement a person may make to a psychologist or psychiatrist but not generally to the public.

*

I understand the two people whose statements appear in my post meant well but their examples I quoted here are not true examples of phobic statements.

Otherwise, their posts were right on.

[Long Duck Dong]

thanks for that jeanie..... thank you very much

its not often that I see people refer to a * fear * of LGBT directly in speech, but I am very familiar with with * subtle * fear / phobia with statements like * I will not go near LGBT with aids, I am not risking catching it at all *

its more a fear based around understanding, but it tends to label the LGBT as responsible for aids / hiv, and while being nervous about aids is a valid fear.... it risks of catching it are quite low.... specially if you are just smiling and talking to the person

more often than not, I tend to view the LGBT phobia as biased / narrow minded opinion, called LGBT phobia as its become somewhat of a catch phrase today.....

I am not sure why people find it easier to call it a phobia v's a biased opinion
for example

IF I call a persons reaction or opinion a phobia statement, I can see it as them having a fear of someone or something that is normal, but they have a irrational fear / dislike of it that is unjustified or expressed in a offensive manner

vs

If I call a persons reaction or opinion a biased statement, I can see it as them having a narrow minded opinion or point of view about a person, persons or issue, but calling them biased, makes me look judgemental and in doing so, I can appear as judgmental and opinionated as the person I am refering to, and I do not wish to appear like that so I use the term phobia

[Long Duck Dong]

hmmm examples
Well, when I read a post by a person on this site, I (and I assume others) begin to develop opinions about that person. If they are describing something that is outside of my personal experience, I may find that I have a variety of emotional reactions. I may be excited, concerned, intrigued, compassionate, fearful, or a variety of other emotions. I begin to form an opinion of that person. If I sense discomfort and concern about what I am reading in their posts, I begin to develop a negative opinion towards them. If what I read later in a post by them begins to alter my emotional reaction to them, I may change my opinion. I think that I may be phobic at a point when I am no longer willing to alter my perspective towards the individual and begin to generalize my negativity not only towards them but a group that they self identify with. When I begin to negatively label a group by my personal experience with one individual from the group, or even worse hearsay, I may becoming phobic rather than just having a negative opinion about an individual. On the other hand, if I experience a lot of negative emotional reactions based upon multi experiences with individuals of a group, I may begin to generalize a negative opinion of a group. My negative experience may be rational based upon my own real experiences. I think that may not be phobic. The question would be whether I am bringing about negativity from the various members of that group. Is my prejudice based upon unrealistic fear or realistic fear? Will I remain open when meeting other members of that group? I may have developed a prejudice with cause and be very cautious about interacting with other members of that group. It may be better to develop boundaries for the interactions if my fear is justified as in fear of personal safety.

Now, I am still working in the realm of generalities and may not be specific enough for you. However, you wrote in a more generalized manner yourself...lol

I generalize as I do not deal in absolutes......

to me my reaction to a person or statement needs to be justified and founded in fact.... so often I will go back over my reactions, comments and opinions and see if to me, they are justified or if I am just being a asshole and opinionated

what is important to me is that I look at all options and viewpoints in a situation as that means my opinion can be more solidly made, based around a good look at the situation....

a example is the KKK vs the white separatist.... they are actually very different groups with different Ideals..... but as a glance, they are both racist groups....
one group is racially biased in a opposing way with force and intention
the other group is racially exclusive and seeking separatism by nature of race
but we label them both racist groups due to the fact we have not learnt the truth about them as groups and what makes them difference

I am the same with the LGBT, except we are using sexuality and gender instead of race.....and again, the only way for me to learn and understand, is to walk amongst the different aspects of the LGBT in order to learn better what divides us and unites us

what I have noticed there is that people have denied any elitist / seperatist attitudes in the LGBT community, but in their very posts, have posted elitist style statements that are not phobic but being labelled as phobic

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Uhmm..Is Troll-phobia or Idjet-phobia proper terminologies??? lol
Hugs LDD
Silly Cat:bigrin:

[tenni]

"what I have noticed there is that people have denied any elitist / seperatist attitudes in the LGBT community, but in their very posts, have posted elitist style statements that are not phobic but being labelled as phobic"

What I wonder is who gets to determine that someone is Xphobic?

I don't recall very many people accused of being Xphobic readily admitting that they are Xphobic. Is it the member or members of the Xgroup that determines if someone's opinions are phobic?

If someone posts an elitist opinion about their own group, I don't think that makes the person phobic of their own group. If the same person expresses opinions as facts and it is about another group, I can see an accusation about being Xphobic as having some validity.

I'm inclined to lean towards accepting a member of a group who accuses another person of being phobic towards their group. I think that it does all of us well to at least reflect upon the accusation. Discuss it and then make up our own mind whether the person is presenting a phobic position.

[Long Duck Dong]

it raises a interesting aspect tenni....

I do not judge phobia by my personal feelings or emotions..... part of the reason is I have dystimia and so I am more or less * immune * to some ranges of human emotion and that can impair my ability to interrelate to people on a emotion level

for me I have to view phobia based around the statement and the wording.... and thats why I am trying to understand if phobia is seen by others based around a emotional reaction to statements or personal view point, or a clinical reaction to the wording as a offensive statement that is not targeting a person but targeting a lifestyle or action in a life style

elitist statements I do not view as phobia...
elitist statements are ones like * no female can suck cock as good as a male *
* trans people / cross dressers do not belong in the gay bar group scene *
etc

the reason I view that as elitist is that I read them as * you do not fit the criteria to be accepted by us * but I allow for the fact that a female that enjoys oral interaction with male gentalia or a trans person / cross dresser that loves the company of gay people, will take it as a personal attack and a form of phobia....non clinical phobia as in dislike of a group / person as opposed to a fear of a group / person


thats why I am tending to view accusations of phobia as a personal driven viewpoint...and why I am open to the fact that I may be missing aspects of the issues that shed a different light on things

[Long Duck Dong]

Uhmm..Is Troll-phobia or Idjet-phobia proper terminologies??? lol
Hugs LDD
Silly Cat:bigrin:


mmm good question..... troll phobia..... it could be a clinical phobia...:p

personally I like my form of troll phobia.... its known as * omgIhatetrollssobloodymuchthatwhenthey postoffensiveandnastyBSthatIfeeltheneedtocontactDr ewaboutitandlethimreviewthepostandmakingarulingpho bia

[rissababynta]

mmm good question..... troll phobia..... it could be a clinical phobia...:p

personally I like my form of troll phobia.... its known as * omgIhatetrollssobloodymuchthatwhenthey postoffensiveandnastyBSthatIfeeltheneedtocontactDr ewaboutitandlethimreviewthepostandmakingarulingpho bia

lmfao!

[TwylaTwobits]

sighs, only phobia I have is arachnophobia....did darlin LDD kill the spider for me that was in the bathroom? No, his roommate had to get it out of the bathroom for me. Thank god for one sensitive man in that house :tongue:

Love ya baby :)

[tenni]

"for me I have to view phobia based around the statement and the wording.... and thats why I am trying to understand if phobia is seen by others based around a emotional reaction to statements or personal view point, or a clinical reaction to the wording as a offensive statement that is not targeting a person but targeting a lifestyle or action in a life style"

Well, I think those of us who are not a member of the group have quite a different emotional reaction than those that are within the group. If negative statements are being made about a group, those outside the group do not always experience an emotional reaction. I think that the negative consequences that might befall the group for false beliefs being spread about the group cause harm to the members of the group. Those individuals face the consequences and therefore would have a greater emotional reaction.

If you examine certain statements on their own, they may not be seen as phobic from others outside the group. Those outside the group may have heard them over and over again. It takes members within the group to speak out to clarify falsehoods and fears that may be based upon a falsehood. I think that a phobic reaction happens when logic is dismissed and yes emotion usually over rides to the point that it becomes a phobia and an unjustified phobic reaction or belief.

The homophobic (and perhaps biphobic ) belief that gay men are all pedophiles and should not be permitted near children is a false statement but often accepted by some straight people. Now, LDD if you are not able to feel the emotional sting of that statement, I suspect that you have enough information to know that the statement is false? Even if you remove the emotional component do you not feel some sense of injustice being done?

btw (sigh) It is rather hard to give up the belief that another guy doesn't tend to give a better bj than a woman....lol ;) I'm sure that there are some women who can though...

[Long Duck Dong]

[I]


The homophobic (and perhaps biphobic ) belief that gay men are all pedophiles and should not be permitted near children is a false statement but often accepted by some straight people. Now, LDD if you are not able to feel the emotional sting of that statement, I suspect that you have enough information to know that the statement is false? Even if you remove the emotional component do you not feel some sense of injustice being done?

btw (sigh) It is rather hard to give up the belief that another guy doesn't tend to give a better bj than a woman....lol ;) I'm sure that there are some women who can though...

the statement that all gay men are pedophiles is something I have heard.... from my own mother ( christian ) and I live with a gay guy..... my mother makes him xmas dinner every year....

to me the statement is a support for biased opinions and used to justify opinions that exist in the minds of people that are too closed minded to the truth, which is its heterosexual people that are responsible for more sexual crimes then any other sexuality......
I base that around prison stats and sexual offender records in nz...and I believe them to be accurate for the most part....

that aside..... I hate child molesters with a vengence, but I also hate people that would accuse anybody of deeds such as that...and I am a firm beleiver that the crime can destory a life the same as a false accusation

so yeah... even without a emotional reaction.... it was that type of remark by my mother that drove a wedge between her and me and its something that has never fully healed.....


as for the bj .... all I can say... is that there have been some males and females that have excelled at bj's with me...... but a lot of it have to do with communication.... they suck my cock, I help them learn how best to do it for me, and in return, I learn from their guidance with oral on them......
so I can not place one gender over another without having a bj from every living person over the age of consent...
and I find it a lil interesting that a gay male felt they were accurate in making the statement that no female can suck cock better than a male, .... when based on age and sexuality.... I question the number of females they had had bj's from

[tenni]

"I can not place one gender over another without having a bj from every living person over the age of consent..."

LOL Well, said in the right environment, that is probably a "come on" line (pun intended) ;) Any volunteer to see how successful it might be on a Friday or Saturday night?...lol (maybe a bisexual bar :)

[Gearbox]

I've found that that the homophobic male hetro's that I've met are not anti-homosexuals. They are fine in a room of GLB's.
Their phobia's come out when talking about two men sticking their whatnots up each other's doodaa's.(excuse crude terms:bigrin:).

The thought of gay sex gives them a negative sickly feeling. They do not choose to have that feeling, and they do not have that feeling when just socialising with gay/bi men who do it in private.

So 'Homophobic' isn't really suitable for them. 'Homophobia' is best suited to those who can't stand being around homosexuals due their inability to separate the person from their sex life.(which is THEIR problem!).

It goes for transvestites too. Fair enough if you don't appreciate female cloths on a man. Nobody can force anybody to do that. But if you are not able to appreciate the man under the cloths then that's YOUR problem.

As for butch lesbians on tractors, well we all know that their going to Hell!
ONLY JOKING!:bigrin:

[HelloToYou]

This makes me think of the term hydrophobic. It has nothing to do with a mental disorder... It has to do with the part of a cell wall that doesn't mix well with water.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lmao..Gearbox is a potty mouth..he said Dooodaa...:bigrin::cool:;) Him a knotty man..LOL
Silly Cat