tenni... can you address this please

[Long Duck Dong]

since you feel that I may be not understanding of peoples situations....I will ask this question and anybody is free to answer this as well

" at what level or point in the relationship is it ok for your partner to step outside of the relationship and into the arms of another person, without telling you, your permission or your knowledge "

this is not about defining cheating..... I am asking simply and openly ..... what what point is it ok for your partner to act in a dishonest manner in a relationship / marriage and betray your trust in them..... and at what point is it no longer acceptable for your partner to live a lie and the point is reached that they should be honest with you.....

this is simply a reverse look at the situation of relationships from the point of view of a person that may or may not have stated they want a monogamous relationship...as most people enter a relationship with the understanding its a monogamous relationship..... and how they may or may not view the situation

I am looking at this from the point of view of a person that has entered into a relationship ( a few in fact ) and had partners that deemed it their right to have affairs.... and were happy to have me continue to be their partner, love and support them, and be non sexual in the relationship.....

this is something that I have been thru and dealt with in my own life..... so tenni.... I want to know where I am not seeing things * correctly * from the point of view of a person that is or desiring to have a open relationship / extramartial affairs, without their partners knowledge or permission, considering I have been the person waiting at home for a * wandering partner *

[Long Duck Dong]

while I await tenni's response..... I will say something else

as a partner that was in a 7 year relationship with a person that ruled that there was to be no sex ( tho they had a number of affairs and indeed got pregnant while I was to remain celibate ) I often question what the hell was I thinking or doing.....

I committed to a sex less relationship, with a person I trusted and loved, believing that they would show me the same respect that I gave them
tho at the time, I was not aware of what they wanted.... they made it clear after we got into the relationship.....

my role in the relationship became one where I was expected to put up with personal / emotional / mental and even physical abuse, I was also expected to provide food, money and cigarettes
I was working during this relationship, leaving at 5.30am and returning about 10 pm every day, and expected to walk in the door and cook dinner.

unfortunately during this relationship I put myself into mental health services with life long issues ( I was eventually diagnosised a few years after the relationship with dystimia a form of depression ), and ended up on meds for depression and to help me sleep.... I went off them as they interfered with my ability to give my heart and soul to the relationship... in the hope that I could enhance the relationship....

the mental health issues were not a result of the relationship, and in fact allowed me to stay in the relationship and become immune to the abuse...

I still to this day, continue to give help and support to my ex partner ( much to the shock and horror of many people ) as in my mind, its what you do when you love somebody.... and tho we have parted ways, I still will not turn my back on people I have loved .....

to my understanding, I have fulfilled every obligation to my ex partner, I loved, supported and cared for them and about them for 7 years, I stood with them thru the loss of their child ( removed from them by the courts ) and will never know who the father of the child is.... it is claimed that I am the father ( we had sex 6 times in 7 years ).....but I am not listed as a liable parent, the father is listed as father unknown....

I proved to myself that I could and did love my ex partner thru the good and the bad, for better or for worse and stood strong on a vow of faithfullness to my ex partner.....

I, in all honesty, do not think I could have done any more for the relationship than I had

I remained celibate ( for a bisexual, thats no easy feat ), I provided money, food, housing, cigarettes, emotional and mental support, advice, brought them a computer, supplied a car etc etc etc..... and gained nothing other than the understanding that I could give my heart and soul to a person in a relationship and stand by the words * I love you *

now I am being seen as a person that is not accepting of some scenerios in which people need to go outside of a relationship, something that amuses me.... as I am reading remarks like

* sex is not satisfying anymore / can not have sex *
* not enuf support / help *
* partner is not considering my wants, needs and desires *
* too much to lose in the relationship / marriage *
* I love my partner very much but I need a outlet *

it is interesting that I am seen as a person that is not understanding of those things, when I have been thru it....I have a past as a certified counsellor and therapist, I am bisexual...... and I have lost count of the broken hearts I have seen and the lies / deceit and excuses I have heard on the years......

and people wonder why I will not walk in a bi pride march......

[tenni]

"now I am being seen as a person that is not accepting of some scenerios in which people need to go outside of a relationship, something that amuses me.... "

My statements are not about you. This issue is not about you. Your situation is about you. You do not have to accept anything that you do not wish to accept. If you doubt your partner, that is for you to deal with.

As a bisexual man, you may have been judged by others. You may have been declared a pervert by some and told that you are wrong to do what you do. You may have been declared to be wrong about being a bisexual and you are really a confused gay man who really is in denial that he is gay.

The point that someone or you steps forward and verbally accuses someone that you are not in a relationship with about their lifestyle decisions being wrong, is when I object.

[FalconAngel]

....I have a past as a certified counsellor and therapist, I am bisexual......


LDD, you do seem to wave that qualification around quite a bit, as often with no real reason as with real reason.

It makes you seem as if you are using as justification for some of the things that you say.

Having a certification in something does not necessarily make one the ultimate expert, nor should one use that qualification as a means to imply to others that the qualification gives one ultimate knowledge or experience in said field.

There are people in a lot of fields that will freely admit that they are lacking in the knowledge and experience that they wish they had in their field. The only way that will happen is to "shut up and listen" more than to talk.

The universal moral of that is "There is always someone better than you out there" in every field, so don't let it get to you.

And, before you ask, I am not going to claim any specific qualifications for anything beyond just good old-fashioned common sense. Why? Because here, it matters not one bit.

It isn't PC, but then, it's not meant to be. Relax; don't blow things out of proportion and try not to read too much into what is being said.

These things are opinions, which everyone has, and unless they aim a statement specifically at you or specifically point to you, they probably are not talking about you or your situation.

It isn't that big a deal.

None of us are alone in our situations. People are not so diverse as the PC crowd claims, so many of us share the same or similar situations.

[AdamKadmon43]

The more I observe people's sexual inclinations, the more I become convinced that most humans are not, by nature, monogamous. And their attempts to go against their nature seems to be the source of most of the problems.

[AdamKadmon43]

I said "Most".... not "All".

[tenni]

"Sorry but cheating is never OK, justified, or excused. "

GayAZN

Are you missing my point? Why not add to your above statement...."for me"?
"
I see that you are a gay man?

How does the following statement work for you?

Sorry but having sex with men (being gay) is never OK, justified or excusable." It is wrong. If you want to be gay then you should pray to God to get his help. etc."

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, you do seem to wave that qualification around quite a bit, as often with no real reason as with real reason.

It makes you seem as if you are using as justification for some of the things that you say.

Having a certification in something does not necessarily make one the ultimate expert, nor should one use that qualification as a means to imply to others that the qualification gives one ultimate knowledge or experience in said field.

There are people in a lot of fields that will freely admit that they are lacking in the knowledge and experience that they wish they had in their field. The only way that will happen is to "shut up and listen" more than to talk.

The universal moral of that is "There is always someone better than you out there" in every field, so don't let it get to you.

And, before you ask, I am not going to claim any specific qualifications for anything beyond just good old-fashioned common sense. Why? Because here, it matters not one bit.

It isn't PC, but then, it's not meant to be. Relax; don't blow things out of proportion and try not to read too much into what is being said.

These things are opinions, which everyone has, and unless they aim a statement specifically at you or specifically point to you, they probably are not talking about you or your situation.

It isn't that big a deal.

None of us are alone in our situations. People are not so diverse as the PC crowd claims, so many of us share the same or similar situations.

A good deal of the counselling and therapy work was dealing with relationship issues...... so it is relevant to my question

I am addressing my question to tenni that has posted a number of times how we need to be more supportive of people that may be LGBT and finding that they *have no chance * but to commit infidelity in a relationship . marriage and that we need to be more supportive of those people
while I accept what tenni is saying, I am only seeing one side of things, so I am asking a question from the opposite side of the issue.... IE the partner that has no idea what is going on, is not informed or being told anything and as what point do they has the right to know that there is extramarital activity taking place.....
as many of the people have posted, it's truth or no go and we are being told, thats not being understanding of the bisexuals needs....

as a member of this site, I understand we have partners that are dealing with a partner that is seeking open relations / marriage, or that there is the possibility that there is extramarital activity going on.......
and they may be in the site and not posting about the matter...but needing help

currently all they are seeing is the cheating or not cheating posts.....and a lot of posts telling members we should be more supportive of people that may be committing infidelity...... and next to nothing addressing the issue of the partner that is / was believing in their partner and the relationship / marriage... almost as if that person doesn't exist or has no rights....

I want them to see that yes, they have rights... they have a voice too...and they matter..... hence I am addressing it in this thread......

as I have said, its not about cheating, infidelity, its about BOTH partners rights, we have addressed one in depth, what about the other person....when do their rights come into it

[Long Duck Dong]

"now I am being seen as a person that is not accepting of some scenerios in which people need to go outside of a relationship, something that amuses me.... "

My statements are not about you. This issue is not about you. Your situation is about you. You do not have to accept anything that you do not wish to accept. If you doubt your partner, that is for you to deal with.

As a bisexual man, you may have been judged by others. You may have been declared a pervert by some and told that you are wrong to do what you do. You may have been declared to be wrong about being a bisexual and you are really a confused gay man who really is in denial that he is gay.

The point that someone or you steps forward and verbally accuses someone that you are not in a relationship with about their lifestyle decisions being wrong, is when I object.

I am questioning the rights of both people in the relationship not one......

at what point does the partner that is NOT aware of a change in sexual desire / attraction / need or desire..... have the right to know if there is extra marital activitiy going on

that is what I am asking.... its a simple question......

there are 3 answers

1 ) they don't
2) they do immediately
3) only if they need to know, and they will give their permission for extra marital activity to go on

we are consistently focusing on one person in the relationship / marriage, and not addressing the rights of the other person....

I have a straight partner, I am bisexual, it appears to me by reading the forum... that as a bisexual I should be able to have extramarital activity on condition that it either fits the * right * criteria and therefore do not have to tell her anything.... or 2) tell her immediately then find a way to make her accept it so I can continue to do it

we have not really addressed the rest of the opinions ...so to most people they are not seeing the rights of the straight partner addressed,.... so I am addressing them as I am in that situation ..... and I need advice on the * correct * way to deal with issues

[tenni]

Actually, GayAZN it is my point and not a non sequiter. The point again is about judging others for their lifestyle decisions without living their life and stating that they are wrong in absolute terms. It is about not being able to accept the greys in life and seeing only black and whites. You do not have to live that life but do not condemn unless you may be condemned for your life.

I agree that generally disclosing to a partner is the better route but not always possible or the best decision. You disagree in absolute terms rather than stating "for me". That is your opinion.

If you can not see the point then there is nothing that I am interested in writing to clarify on an endless merry go round of one upmanship. I'm not here to convert you to the evils of tolerance..lol

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Long Duck Dong]

tenni can you give me a simple answer please

at what point does the partner in a relationship that may involve extramarital activity, have the right to know......????

this is all I am asking and its a simple question.....

[tenni]

LLD
Sorry dude. That is the best that I can do. I have not been elected to make those decisions. No one hired me as a judge to determine what is right and what is wrong about anyone's relationship. I am only able to say what would be right for me and a partner or two in one or two relationships...lol Even that would vary depending upon the other people.

Make your own decisions about your own lifestyle. Other than that...don't judge others.

I've been "cheated on". It wasn't nice at the time due to an extenuating situation that made it hard for her to disclose to me. At that time, she made the correct decision not to disclose her cheat'n way. I wasn't open or in a place to deal with it. I was dealing with a different life crisis and didn't need more crap. I should have known better but it happened. The signs were there. Life went on.

[tenni]

"Why should I somehow say that cheating is OK or pretend that I'm somehow being tolerant just because people or you want to use your sexuality as an excuse to cheat on a partner?

Would you care if you were in what you considered to be an honest, monogamous, and fidelitious relationship and your partner cheated on you or they told you that all along they had been cheating on you and you had no idea?"

Gay bud
Uh...are you not getting that I'm not interested in discussing this with you? You figure it out. Live your own life.

[Long Duck Dong]

LLD
Sorry dude. That is the best that I can do. I have not been elected to make those decisions. No one hired me as a judge to determine what is right and what is wrong about anyone's relationship. I am only able to say what would be right for me and a partner or two in one or two relationships...lol Even that would vary depending upon the other people.

Make your own decisions about your own lifestyle. Other than that...don't judge others.

I've been "cheated on". It wasn't nice at the time due to an extenuating situation that made it hard for her to disclose to me. At that time, she made the correct decision not to disclose her cheat'n way. I wasn't open or in a place to deal with it. I was dealing with a different life crisis and didn't need more crap. I should have known better but it happened. The signs were there. Life went on.

thats fine...... I was not expecting you to be a judge, just to answer my question...... and you did... I have noticed that it matchs the level of responding in other threads, which to me, indicates a level of consistency.....

[Long Duck Dong]

lol gayazn, I can not answer for tenni on that.....

all I am seeing with pro cheating proponents is that the rights of the non cheating partner appears to be not be acknowledged ....
they can be at risk from unsafe sex, hiv / aids / stds..... and they are not given the right to decide if they wanna be in a relationship where they face that....

using the *grey area * approach.... just doesn't cut it with me..... as there are issues that any partner has a right to make a informed choice about.....

but putting that aside..... people will cheat regardless and justify it in their heads...and that will continue to lower the image of bisexuals in some peoples eyes...... and yet we have bi pride.....

yes I have bi pride..... but I am proud of the fact that I can honour and respect my partner as can many LGBT / hetero people.... and they are the LGBT / hetero, that I would walk along side with in a parade... they may be in a monogamous or open relationship and marriage, but they have let their partners decide to stay with them or not...... and that is something I respect highly

[tenni]

"Heh Tenni doesn't seem to know how to back up arguments that are flimsy'

Well..lol
Since you are taking this low level type of approach...the reality is that I consider you unworthy of a discussion.

You lack the ability to intellectually discuss an issue. It isn't about arguing and one upmanship. It is about your inability to discuss with an open mind. Merely rejecting a viewpoint that is expressed is not discussing. There is nothing to learn from chatting with you dude.

[FalconAngel]

A good deal of the counselling and therapy work was dealing with relationship issues...... so it is relevant to my question


I never said it wasn't relevant in this case. But it may also not be relevant.

I said that you wave it around as if it gives your opinions more credence than anyone else. Perhaps I wasn't clear on that.

Just having a qualification does not automatically make you an expert on a subject. I have seen plenty of people with qualifications, far greater than yours (not just in that field), make huge errors. Hell, that idiot Bush had College degree in business and look what an incompetent bastard he is.

The point is that just because you have a degree or a certification does not make it something that you should be throwing around like it is confetti.

It really doesn't matter what you, or any of us, have qualifications in. What matters is right and wrong.

I agree that cheating is wrong, but since you brought up the subject, monogamy or open marriage/relationship are not the only choices available to mixed orientation couples or BI couples. There are a lot of different combinations and types of relationships that would fit any of us that do not include a specifically "open" marriage/relationship.

But all that you have mentioned is that one option. Common sense, and a little creativity would tell you that an "open" relationship is not the only choice available.

[Long Duck Dong]

I was sharing the point that my opinion is not me based, its based around a large number of other peoples experiences...... and their opinions, not mine

so i look at the issue from many sides, and I give a reason why I do....even my profile states that my opinion is fuild and ever changing

it doesn't make my views right or correct,.... it simply means that I may look at a issue from 10 different angles

often I will use the term * personally * or * for me personally * to show that is when I am expressing my own personal view on a issue and how I manage it in my life......

I use the term open relationship / marriage loosely as I am getting sick of defining things in every possible aspect...

open relationship / marriage to me means a situation of open communication, discussion, understanding, compromise, values, morals, ethics, interpretations, beliefs, faiths, cultures, ages, genders, living arrangements, lifestyle choices, sexualities, sexual preferences, sexual fantasies, sexual desires, and the full range of sexual lifestyle options dealing with extramartial / relationship contacts of a sexual or non sexual nature, with human or animal or in organic material.....

so its easier to refer to it as a open relationship or marriage and define it with extramarital activities.... and let peoples understanding of open relationship / marriage, define it according to the way they see things....

the reason I am writing things the way I do, is that a lot of people are using the * grey area * to get around things..... and I am not reposting for the sake of it, I am trying to get people to address the major aspects of it...and noticing that a lot of people avoid it.....

its like the cheating issue.... a lot of people say its ok under the right circumstances.....but when i address the issue of the other partner and their rights in the relationship...... silence.... and as far as I am concerned its cos its impossible to post a opinion on that, without contradicting a pro cheating stance....... but I can say that cos nobody is proving that assumption wrong..... it doesn't make my assumption right..... it must means that nobody has corrected me on that......

and again, I have seen the exact same thing when I was doing counselling and therapy so I am very open minded and willing to be corrected...... but its a lil hard to be corrected when I am not being proven wrong....... the trouble with that is nor do I think I am right either....I am just expressing thoughts and musings...

[mikey3000]

lol gayazn, I can not answer for tenni on that.....

all I am seeing with pro cheating proponents is that the rights of the non cheating partner appears to be not be acknowledged ....
they can be at risk from unsafe sex, hiv / aids / stds..... and they are not given the right to decide if they wanna be in a relationship where they face that....

using the *grey area * approach.... just doesn't cut it with me..... as there are issues that any partner has a right to make a informed choice about.....

but putting that aside..... people will cheat regardless and justify it in their heads...and that will continue to lower the image of bisexuals in some peoples eyes...... and yet we have bi pride.....

yes I have bi pride..... but I am proud of the fact that I can honour and respect my partner as can many LGBT / hetero people.... and they are the LGBT / hetero, that I would walk along side with in a parade... they may be in a monogamous or open relationship and marriage, but they have let their partners decide to stay with them or not...... and that is something I respect highly


Ok. Got it now LDD. You are a therapist who has been cheated on multiple times. Now I totally understand your position.

Tenni Is not answering your question directly because there are no direct answers. Yes, it is a grey area. As a therapist you should know that. "At what point in the relationship does the partner have the right to know they're being cheated on?" C'mon man, get real. Most probably never. You keep screaming that the partner has the right to know. How about the "cheater's" right to privacy? Wouldn't that be just as equal?

I applaud you for the relationship choices YOU'VE made, no matter how they turned out. You made those celabacy choices for you. Too bad your partners didn't agree with your choices. But is it maybe that you're ideals of a relationship are a wee bit naive? What adult (your ex girlfriend) would expect monogamy& celebacy from their partner (you), when she's running around and getting knocked up bu another guy? Do you believe that she really entered the relationship honestly? Could there maybe be another motive for her entering a relationshipo with you? $$$ maybe? Instead of you forcing your morals on others, maybe now is a good time to look at why you hold these impossibly high standards so dear to you. If you've been cheated on several times in relationships, I'm betting you're a, "very nice guy, but..." Is it possible that you maybe have a touch of the White Knight syndrome? How about a little less respect for your partners (where ever they are) and a little more respect for you? I get the impression that you are on a cruisade for victims of cheaters, yet you are following the same path and setting your self up to be a perpetual victim.

[tenni]

"How is being gay or bisexual a 'lifestyle decision'?"

Although I see no point in trying to discuss views with you, I will clarify for you. The "lifestyle decisions" that I was referring to had nothing to do with "being gay or bisexual". It has to do with any decisions that we make about how we are going to live as bisexuals, etc. A decision to enter into another relationship without informing partner(s) that you are in a relationship with is a lifestyle decision in my opinion.

Good fortune to you in your gay lifestyle decisions GayAZN.

[rissababynta]

*Runs around the room naked screaming "Please make it stop!"*

How about everyone just agrees to disagree on this one. At this point, I think it is quite clear that no matter what any one person says on either side will even slightly alter anyones opinions. I feel that this is one of those situations where the discussion can go on until the end of time.

[tenni]

I agree with you Rissa.

[Long Duck Dong]

Ok. Got it now LDD. You are a therapist who has been cheated on multiple times. Now I totally understand your position.

Tenni Is not answering your question directly because there are no direct answers. Yes, it is a grey area. As a therapist you should know that. "At what point in the relationship does the partner have the right to know they're being cheated on?" C'mon man, get real. Most probably never. You keep screaming that the partner has the right to know. How about the "cheater's" right to privacy? Wouldn't that be just as equal?

I applaud you for the relationship choices YOU'VE made, no matter how they turned out. You made those celabacy choices for you. Too bad your partners didn't agree with your choices. But is it maybe that you're ideals of a relationship are a wee bit naive? What adult (your ex girlfriend) would expect monogamy& celebacy from their partner (you), when she's running around and getting knocked up bu another guy? Do you believe that she really entered the relationship honestly? Could there maybe be another motive for her entering a relationshipo with you? $$$ maybe? Instead of you forcing your morals on others, maybe now is a good time to look at why you hold these impossibly high standards so dear to you. If you've been cheated on several times in relationships, I'm betting you're a, "very nice guy, but..." Is it possible that you maybe have a touch of the White Knight syndrome? How about a little less respect for your partners (where ever they are) and a little more respect for you? I get the impression that you are on a cruisade for victims of cheaters, yet you are following the same path and setting your self up to be a perpetual victim.

I accept there is grey areas..... I know there is grey areas..... its the most common reasoning for cheating and infidelity.....
but even my ex partner, the cheater, gave me a clear cut answer for her cheating...... and that answer was * I do it cos I can, I want to, and you can do your best to stop me but I will not listen to you, its MY LIFE, I can do what I WANT * and that is not paraphased..... its actually what she said

now on the matter of cheating....its not cheating that I have the issue with.... its the lack of honesty and respect for the partner that is the issue..... they have the right to decide if they want to stay.... and they are not given that right or that choice....

I had the choice in my relationship, I chose to stay...

thats it in a nutshell..... honesty, loyalty and respect..... if people can not show that for their partners, so be it, but I think the partner has the right of choice.....

[Long Duck Dong]

Tenni Is not answering your question directly because there are no direct answers. Yes, it is a grey area. As a therapist you should know that. "At what point in the relationship does the partner have the right to know they're being cheated on?" C'mon man, get real. Most probably never. You keep screaming that the partner has the right to know. How about the "cheater's" right to privacy? Wouldn't that be just as equal?


" You keep screaming that the partner has the right to know. How about the "cheater's" right to privacy? Wouldn't that be just as equal? "

thank you..... you hit the nail on the head..... rights in a relationship... addressed or assumed....

the issue of rights in a relationships.... and what rights do exist in a relationship and what rights are assumed...never agreed to in a relationship

we do talk about revealing our sexuality at the start of a relationship so the other partner knows..... BUT how often do we actually make up a check list of rights at the start of a relationship.....that is not triggered by the revelation of a sexuality....

I know we do have pre nups for marriage.... but they are more about property rights and money and child access etc etc

and that makes your point, one of the most valid and correct points I have seen or heard......

in most monogamous relationships, boundaries are generally not laid down or discussed in respects to cheating... as its assumed it will not happen.... and therefore each partners rights are not addressed in that area...

so did your partner agree to you cheating and not revealling the truth to her ....and did you agree with your partner that cheating was allowed and acceptable and that you had the right to privacy....

cos if not, neither of you have either rights in that area.... you merely assume you do...... and do a lot of people in monogamous relationships..... and that is why it doesn't get talked about or addressed UNLESS cheating does happen and it comes out.....

thats why I hear a lot of people talk about their rights.... but are they rights they have expressed and discussed in a relationship with their partner.... or not......

thank you again mikey for pinpointing a area of relationships that not many people actually look at..... and its something that is often talked about in this site..... with open relationships and the setting of boundaries and rights in the relationship

[mikey3000]

And this is where things are a little different in my marriage. We did discuss cheating befor we got married. And we agreed that if it happens, as it does in so many relationships, that we will do our best to work things out. We knew that neither of us were infallable and we were realistic. Also the fact that when we got married, I knew she was in love with another guy and she knew I was in love with another woman. When we got married we were great friends, but madly in love? No. That came later. Now I would die for her if I could.

AS a side note, I met a guy a few weeks back who I wouldn't mind getting closer to, but he is partnered. It doesn't seem to be an issue for him, as he suspects his partner is fooling around on him too. Anyway when I discussed it with my wife, and my intrepidation of getting involved with a partnered guy, she said, "so what? if he suspects his partner is fooling around, he probably is. What's the problem? If you like him, go for it." :eek: What a woman!