WHY is cheating ok??

[Annika L]

Alright...with well over 200 responses to the survey on cheating, I see a pattern that surprises me.

Around 40% of respondents think that cheating is ok at least sometimes. :eek:

So the cruel truth seems to be that if we're dating a new person who seems like the cat's meow, and we're starting to dream of longterm possibilities, we must accept that chances aren't much better than 50/50 that this wonderful person not only might cheat on us...but actually thinks that's perfectly ok (at least under certain circumstances)! :eek::eek:

As someone raised under the quaint ethic that cheating at *anything* (games, exams, love, etc.) is just plain wrong, I would really appreciate hearing people's reasoning:

Under what circumstances is cheating on your significant other ok?
And *why* is cheating ok then?

For the sake of getting responses, let's agree that just because a person defends cheating in this thread, it doesn't mean they've cheated, or would ever do such a thing!

Also I am not interested in this turning into a debate over whether cheating is ok...I just want to hear how people rationalize it to themselves...so there can be
NO WRONG ANSWERS!!

[welickit]

Lets first define the term so everyone is on the same page. This is a good thread and bound to piss off those with the word "discretion" in their profile.

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, [1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as a cheat (British English), or a cheater (American English).


You cannot justify cheating.:2cents:

[Volley]

Lets first define the term so everyone is on the same page. This is a good thread and bound to piss off those with the word "discretion" in their profile.

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, [1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as a cheat (British English), or a cheater (American English).

You cannot justify cheating.:2cents:


'Cheating' the act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery,..... can not be justified as there are not any winners and the lie hurts (at least) all concerned.

The person cheated on is hurt because they have been lied to, decieved and demeaned. The cheaters are hurt because they have to lie and decieve others in their life. The list can go on and on. When one lies there are no winners.:2cents:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Cheating is never ok Babygirl. I cant trust a liar, and if a person is cheating, its lying, and I dont need it in my life. People can rationalize it all they like,; it still doesnt make it right.
Cat

[FalconAngel]

Ditto, Ditto and Ditto.

Cheating is cheating and there is no moral or Karmic justification for it.

[Long Duck Dong]

I see cheating in two parts... the actions and the reasoning behind it....

while I do not excuse cheating, I do look at the reasoning and take that into consideration
while reasoning doesn't excuse cheating, it makes better sense to explain what happened

also to me, cheating can be sexual or non sexual with a person..... I do separate sex from itimate contact ( platonic ) as a hug and emotional mental support is different to sucking a cock or munching a pussy for sexual plasure....

cheating in the relationship / marriage to me, falls under one of four different aspects

delibrate cheating: I am of this sexuality, I have needs and desires, therefor I need to do this and I can't not / will not, tell my partner or my partner can not / will not allow me to sleep around..... its the reasoning I see with most cheating

the * accidental * cheating: I got drunk, or I was on meds, not a excuse for my actions but I was not clear headed enuf to remain in control and rationalize our my actions and the result of them.. ( I use the term accidental to define one off cheating, not regular or long term cheating as knowing you have issues with drugs, alcohol or meds and that it leads to cheating and a person continues not to avoid situations that lead to cheating...is not a excuse )

the * fallen angel * cheating: I have a partner that has medical / health / other issues that are short or long term and we are not functioning fully together, I reach out for support and help from others and unfortunately, I acted in a manner that normally I would not.... tho this can also be my partner is uncapable of fulfilling my desires, and while I love them and care for them.... sex is important, so I will *bond * with another to help me cope with my partners issues

the * lost love * cheating : I am losing my partner by reason of terminal illness / disability / failed relationship or marriage, a person supporting me and myself have become close, very close and we have developed a bond and union..... I still love the one I am in a relationship / marriage with, but I am losing them and the new person is helping me from spiralling out of control / emotional, mental breakdown etc

as you tip the scales on the issue of cheating, there are times that you can see that on one side, its intention/ desire based cheating / sexual contact....and on the other side, unintentional and not sex based but it can end up with sexual contact, but not for personal satisfaction

I also understand the *wronged partners * point of view, the failure of trust, betrayal etc..... the * I love my partner and allow them to have other partners * person, whom loves their partner dearly and says its ok, just not details please and be honest with me..... and the *slipping away * partner... find another, be happy and move on, we are soon to be no more.....


personally, for me, I can not rationise cheating for myself, I view cheating as purely sex based, selfish and no advantage to the relationship....
I can not use excuses like I have wants, needs and desires, as I am neglecting the relationship for my need to be ass fucked and to suck cocks....
I work on the idea of play by the same rules I expect my partners to play by, and I must play by their rules as well, but so must they.......

as I often say to people, my rules work for me, they may not work for others, but they work for me, so I live by my rules, and I allow others not to..... it doesn't make others wrong, but nor does it make me right, when passing a opinion about others statements or actions

[darkeyes]

Lets first define the term so everyone is on the same page. This is a good thread and bound to piss off those with the word "discretion" in their profile.

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, [1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as a cheat (British English), or a cheater (American English).


You cannot justify cheating.:2cents:

Throughout history people have lied, cheated, deceived, acted fraudulently and acted dishonestly in many ways and very often it can easily be argued.. justifiably. Gays and bisexual people throughout the darkest days of their oppression, Jews in Germany, people of many differing religious and other philosophies whose honesty in owning up to those beliefs would all have ended in their extinction...all acted in the interests of self preservation. A form of cheating which can easily be argued as justifiable.

[darkeyes]

Cheating on a partner or anyone else to whom we have promised fidelity is a matter of personal conscience. It breaks a vow certainly and it is up to each of us how we live with it. However we live with it though, should we cheat in such a manner does not make us nice people and can never be condoned.

Each of us does things for a myriad of diferent reasons and often we act dishonestly, both to ourselves and to others by promising one thing and doing another. I an no angel when it comes to this for I have been a cheat and have as a consequence severely hurt people who meant a great deal to me and they were not acts in which I have any pride. On the contrary, I have to live with the consequences, the shame and the guilt.

Having been a cheat however, while I will never condone the act of cheating in the context of Annika's question, I understand in many ways why people do stray and cheat on those they love most. I am not trying to justify it, merely to say that things and events happen in our lives over which we have little or no control and we do things we should not. We are emotional, sexual beings, and it is easier to say we will be faithful and true to our partner than it is to actually be faithful and true.

I am fortunate. I almost lost the person I love most in the world by an insane act born out of love for another. Indeed I did lose her for a considerable while. However, time and her forgiving nature allowed me back into her life as best I am able will never repeat the betrayal which almost destroyed us.

I do not ask anyone to condone an act of betrayal.. but do ask that we all try and understand that we are all flawed human beings and all of us with few, if any exceptions, can be susceptible to the folly of cheating. Many, maybe even most will never cheat.. but none of us can say for sure that with the right (wrong??) person in our sights, with the right conditions, the right mood, we will never cheat. None of us are paragons of innocence or virtue.

[lv69cpl69]

28% say sometimes ok 60% say no We are in the NO section. not that it can't happen but if you have to "sneak" it is wrong just our :2cents:

[Spartik]

I've read several threads on this subject and am aware that several persons are very anti-infidelity. I think you guys have made your point and I respect it. The only thing I'd like you to consider is that some of us may be in relationships or marriages that are no longer sexually satisfying but are also not easy to honestly break up. If you have been with someone for a long time, that relationship is not as disposable as one in your 20's. If you just found out you were gay in your 40's or 50's, you might be tempted to have sex with that guy before you got the divorce or divorce might not be easy if you have kids. I would just suggest some reduction in the tone of your disapproval. A lot of us do not live simple lives.

[tenni]

" I would just suggest some reduction in the tone of your disapproval. A lot of us do not live simple lives."

I agree with you.

Instead of being on a bisexual website, some posters sound like they are members of some moralistic condemning group. Some poster state that cheating is wrong but forget to add..."for me in my relationship".

[Long Duck Dong]

I've read several threads on this subject and am aware that several persons are very anti-infidelity. I think you guys have made your point and I respect it. The only thing I'd like you to consider is that some of us may be in relationships or marriages that are no longer sexually satisfying but are also not easy to honestly break up. If you have been with someone for a long time, that relationship is not as disposable as one in your 20's. If you just found out you were gay in your 40's or 50's, you might be tempted to have sex with that guy before you got the divorce or divorce might not be easy if you have kids. I would just suggest some reduction in the tone of your disapproval. A lot of us do not live simple lives.

I agree.... and I accept that.... but does it make lying to your partner and infidelity ok ??? for the sake of sex.....?????

its not anti infidelity that is my viewpoint, its anti dishonesty, you are not allowing your partner to express their opinion or choice, you are making it for them.....

when you make life choices for yourself that could affect a relationship or your partner, and you act upon them without giving your partner the right to have their say....then its a serious issue.....

and as I keep saying and keep getting told its not *.... its about sex, *

when a person commits infidelity and lies about it, they demean a good number of years in a relationship / marriage, they work to justify a betrayal of trust and they willingly undo everything that relationship has been built upon, then they say things like * its not that easy...*

when a person is unfaithful and dishonest, they have a image of loving and caring for their partner that is now fake .... and when excuses are used to justify that.... they are immediately reducing the value of their partner and their partners worth......

walk in your partners shoes, your partner turns around after 20 years and says for the last 2 years, I have not been interested in sex with you, I perfer a partner of the same sex, I am gay / lesbian / bisexual...... it fucking hurts....

now imagine this.... your partner is cheating on you, with another person... and you suddenly find out.... one of the first reactions is why, and for how long has this been going on..... and also, how can I trust my partner to be telling the truth.... they have already been lieing to me and I believed them...how do I know that now they are telling the truth
my marriage is a lie.......

at the end of the day, there is one simple statement that can not be denied
" if you cheat, you have not given your partner the chance to be your partner, you have pushed them aside in the interests of sex "

[Long Duck Dong]

Cheating on a partner or anyone else to whom we have promised fidelity is a matter of personal conscience. It breaks a vow certainly and it is up to each of us how we live with it. However we live with it though, should we cheat in such a manner does not make us nice people and can never be condoned.

Each of us does things for a myriad of diferent reasons and often we act dishonestly, both to ourselves and to others by promising one thing and doing another. I an no angel when it comes to this for I have been a cheat and have as a consequence severely hurt people who meant a great deal to me and they were not acts in which I have any pride. On the contrary, I have to live with the consequences, the shame and the guilt.

Having been a cheat however, while I will never condone the act of cheating in the context of Annika's question, I understand in many ways why people do stray and cheat on those they love most. I am not trying to justify it, merely to say that things and events happen in our lives over which we have little or no control and we do things we should not. We are emotional, sexual beings, and it is easier to say we will be faithful and true to our partner than it is to actually be faithful and true.

I am fortunate. I almost lost the person I love most in the world by an insane act born out of love for another. Indeed I did lose her for a considerable while. However, time and her forgiving nature allowed me back into her life as best I am able will never repeat the betrayal which almost destroyed us.

I do not ask anyone to condone an act of betrayal.. but do ask that we all try and understand that we are all flawed human beings and all of us with few, if any exceptions, can be susceptible to the folly of cheating. Many, maybe even most will never cheat.. but none of us can say for sure that with the right (wrong??) person in our sights, with the right conditions, the right mood, we will never cheat. None of us are paragons of innocence or virtue.

hugs dark eyes..... you understand.... thank you for sharing....

[tenni]

"but does it make lying to your partner and infidelity ok ??? for the sake of sex.....?????"

It is best not to deal in absolutes when it comes to sexuality and sexual relationships. Have we as bisexuals not learned that?

[Long Duck Dong]

"but does it make lying to your partner and infidelity ok ??? for the sake of sex.....?????"

It is best not to deal in absolutes when it comes to sexuality and sexual relationships. Have we as bisexuals not learned that?

where is the absolute..????? I am asking a open ended question.... not making a statement.....

I use the open ended terminology of * for the sake of sex * as you will find that the largest majority of cheating / infidelity doesn't involve a affair with a NON sexual / platonic nature, so I based my question around the most common aspect of cheating which is sex and sexual contact

just for you tenni, I will make a open ended question with blurred lines, a absolutely defined statement
I am refering to people in sexual or non sexual relationships ( sexual covering oral / anal / vaginal / penile stimuli by means of toys, body parts or intercourse, masturbation, cyber, phone sex, cam sex, including human, animal or otherwise ) having extra outside of relationship / marriage contact in the nature of a affair ( being contact in the nature of a relationship / casual hook up, fling, etc ) with a non sexual / platonic person ( meaning no level of contact that could be deemed as sexual in any form including talking, visual, audio references...) or a sexual relationship ( sexual covering oral / anal / vaginal / penile stimuli by means of toys, body parts or intercourse, masturbation, cyber, phone sex, cam sex, including human, animal or otherwise )

[JP1986UM]

Isn't it true that 50% of all straight marriages have an affair in them?

Something like that?

So isn't 40% lower than the expected rate? Technically, shouldn't it be higher?

[Long Duck Dong]

the fiqures I used to have and that are outdated now ( part of counselling work ) was that 78% of relationships and marriage ( across all sexualities ) have had some form of infidelity ranging from a stolen kiss to long term full sexual intercourse

the rate of non married people / people that marry but are in open relationships is on the rise as commitment to a partner is seen more and more as a restriction

the average married person is likely to have 2.3 affairs in the length of a 20 year marriage

there are times that I question why people marry.... and a few times I have been told, that its often more for the benefits and health aspects ( if your partner is ill, you can sign forms for them ) than love and caring.....

if people want to do that, I will not question it, each to their own.... its their lives...but I do wonder, if people want open relationships and marriages.... why the hell they marry in the first place.... ( form signing aside )
I understand they may love the person and care for them deeply.... but it makes you wonder, if marriage is now outdated for the most part.....
please do not get me wrong, I am not knocking marriage or married people, but questioning something I have never done and thats marry

[ivanthemonkey]

It's a matter of defining acceptable cheating and how intimate the partner became and how discrete their partner might be.

Most partners thin that sex is mostly just physical, a partner might make a mistake, get hit on while at a partner and be tempted by a hotty. Some might expect a wealthy person to have a mistress even, or to not be suprised if they called an excort while in vegas, so long as they used protection.

Sex is just sex.

On the other hand certain acts like kissing is seen as being intimate. It is perhaps suprising, but most people responded in surveys that they find kissing and making out with another person to be cheating, because this is shared intimacy. But simple sex is forgivable.

Your question of why is cheatgin ok is not really the right question. rather you should ask what exactly is considered cheating and to what degree is it acceptable.

Some would find looking at a pornographic movie to be cheating. By this view alot of faithful couples are cheating on each other and they would ask why it is acceptable to be cheating (ie watching porn)

[JP1986UM]

In all of nature, there are rare cases of mating for life. Mostly the male is either the females mate and she then eats him (man that's cold) or he mates only to continue his genes along the species. In most mammalian species, the male mates with many females to continue his dominance and make other cubs, offspring, babies look like him.

Then in due time, the younger males come along, boot his ass out, and start all over with the females. So there it is.

Hell, even most men, if they are not gay, will try and mate with as many females as they can that they find attractive. Its just a natural thing. Marriage as a concept is more a fidelity throughout history that the male identifies a primary rather than solitary mate. Abraham had concubines as well as a slave he had Ismaiel with I believe. So in the end, fidelity is more a religious concept rather than species requirement.

Glad I am bi.....

[Long Duck Dong]

It's a matter of defining acceptable cheating and how intimate the partner became and how discrete their partner might be.

Most partners thin that sex is mostly just physical, a partner might make a mistake, get hit on while at a partner and be tempted by a hotty. Some might expect a wealthy person to have a mistress even, or to not be suprised if they called an excort while in vegas, so long as they used protection.

Sex is just sex.

On the other hand certain acts like kissing is seen as being intimate. It is perhaps suprising, but most people responded in surveys that they find kissing and making out with another person to be cheating, because this is shared intimacy. But simple sex is forgivable.

Your question of why is cheatgin ok is not really the right question. rather you should ask what exactly is considered cheating and to what degree is it acceptable.

Some would find looking at a pornographic movie to be cheating. By this view alot of faithful couples are cheating on each other and they would ask why it is acceptable to be cheating (ie watching porn)

you have raised some very interesting aspects there......
for me, cheating is the breach of trust and honesty, not so much the act....but the fact its done behind a partners back.....

I guess my general rule of thumb is cheating is this, if you are doing something that you do not wish your partner to be aware of, know about or ever been informed about and you have no intention of letting them know yourself..... tho the last one is something I have heard from a friend that was having a affair, they intended to tell their wife.... 4 years later, they still intended and the affair was still going on

kissing and hugging, I view depending on the reason, a hug and kiss as a greeting.... its fine..... sucking face for another 4 hours.... WHY???

as for porn.... its not everybodies cup of tea.... but I know that some people hate porn and laid down a no porn at all rule in the house, but their partners like porn....so on that one, I sit with the * I may not like it... so I do not wanna know about it or see it, but if you wanna, you can * people in relationships as its a agreed compromise....

[Long Duck Dong]

Hell, even most men, if they are not gay, will try and mate with as many females as they can that they find attractive. Its just a natural thing. Marriage as a concept is more a fidelity throughout history that the male identifies a primary rather than solitary mate. Abraham had concubines as well as a slave he had Ismaiel with I believe. So in the end, fidelity is more a religious concept rather than species requirement.

Glad I am bi.....


fidelity may be mentioned in the bible, but there are people that want a partner that is with them, not a partner that is with them and others......

not everybody wants a open relationship / marriage.... and thats not biblical or religious in origin, its just personal choice....

I am bisexual.... but it doesn't mean that I want a open relationship ..... and I have a partner that doesn't want a open relationship either.... I am one very lucky man to have a partner that will help support me to not be controlled by bisexual tendencies

[Annika L]

Your question of why is cheatgin ok is not really the right question. rather you should ask what exactly is considered cheating and to what degree is it acceptable.


A witch always asks exactly what she means to ask, Ivan!

I know exactly what cheating means to me: any breach of the understanding between the persons involved, whatever that understanding may be. But I wanted to leave the language open, because I wanted people to respond to whatever question they saw in what I asked.

And I said explicitly that I DO NOT want this thread to be about *whether* cheating is ok. So welickit, Volley, Cat, Falcon, lv69cpl69, Ivan, (and probably some others I've missed), although your viewpoints are valuable in their own right, they do not address my question, and actually detract from the atmosphere of openness for discussing this topic that I'd hoped to cultivate in this thread.

I very much appreciated Spartik's frank response, and I completely agree with him and the others who say that those of us with anti-cheating rhetoric need to keep our ire in check...there but for the grace of the gods we go ourselves...regardless of how ethical and strong you consider yourself. I do tend to find that the more forceful a person's opinion is, the more they are trying to defend some vulnerability they have in themself...and this applies to me no less than to anyone else.

To those who have felt under fire from me or from others on this site over cheating issues, all I can say is that this thread is my attempt to be understanding, and to understand rather than judge.

I would appreciate continued responses regarding the original question: if you think cheating is ok, either in general, or under some circumstances, help us to understand *why* and/or *when* you think this is ok.

Those who just want to decry cheating...please do it on another thread (you have plenty of options)!

[Bi_Druid]

cheating is just never OK, period.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Well, in referencing to the instance of my aunt with brain cancer that I stated in another thread. technically what my uncle did was cheating. Because while married he didn't have consent and therefore to some that was considered cheating.

I know what it technically is, but don't see it as cheating cause my aunt had mentally degraded to the extent that, she was a child, and having sex with her would have been akin to rape, rape of a child. And as she kept spiraling, it would have been rape, because she no longer understood she was a woman, she didn't even know who she was. She couldn't consent to sex or divorce or anything.

So I would say in an instance like that... Out side sexual relations would be understandable.

If my husband was in prison (never gonna happen, but just a scenario) for an extended amount of time.. I would def be gettin me some penis or whatever, not all of the time. But when I needed it.. If he was in a coma long term I would have sex, same as above, from time to time.

Of course I dunno in my case if even that could be called cheating, cause I already told him that's something I am capable of. He understands I am a very sexual person, but also knows that I have limitations and personal boundaries that I will not cross.

I would not cheat due to lack of orgasms or something asinine like that. I went almost 5 years in this marriage at one point with no orgasms. And while frustrating, it just made me more determined to work with him and find solutions and experiment and even reach out and connect with other people who could offer ideas and suggestion that would help (Thank you to those that did give advice it was much appreciated and fun trying them out ;))

So conclusion is, I am capable of having out side sexual relations, without my hubby knowing all the circumstances of it, but also with his knowledge that I am having sex. If that makes sense.

[Annika L]

cheating is just never OK, period.

*sigh* Is it possible to just boot someone from a forum thread? :tong:

[MaybeSayMaybe]

Cheating is fun. Until you are on the wrong side of it. Then it is not so much fun.

No easy answers here. Just lines in the sand. One of the hardest things in life is to become a person of integrity. It's only valuable in the rear view mirror. So pay attention when you stomp that gas pedal.

[Long Duck Dong]

annika I will give you the best answer I can

the only time I would accept a person cheating is under the following circumstance... because of the result

if a partner by way of mental illness / health issues etc.... is unable and will never be able to act in a clear minded and rational state of mind....and the result is death within a short time frame, or long term
I am thinking severe drain damage, eternal coma, eternal catatonic state, degenerating mental issue etc

then it is not possible to gain permission or agreement for cheating or infidelity.... and as a result, it is possible to form a bond / union with another person outside of the relationship or marriage......

I base that about the idea that the partner is not and never will be capable of communication and is more likely not cognitively aware of events around them

I understand that in scenarios like that, the extra marital / relationship contact would be more than purely sexual satisfaction and can realistically be one more of support, caring, concern etc......

I base most of my anti dishonest thinking around two partner that are clear headed and capable of informed and rational thinking, but as you can see.... the scenerios I am looking at, rule that out

I am also allowing for the fact that the healthy partner can have told the ill partner what is going on and indeed being fully and openly honest, but may never know what the reaction or response may have been

[darkeyes]

Cheating is NEVER ok.

I'm sure people who are into it will flame me but there are no excuses for cheating and it is never justified.

If you are in a relationship and your partner thinks that you are monogamous or in fidelity with them and then you go out and cheat or want to you should just break up with them.

No one.. not even me is saying it is justifiable when it comes to one to one human relationships. It must be awesome to be so certain hun. There are however many circumstances when it is understandable. I wouldnt dream of flaming you sweetheart, but to be so certain and so perfect must be an amazing thing. It sounds prim, proper, puritan and martinetish to me. I do truly hope that u and all those others who are so certain never fall by the wayside. Maybe you never shall..but many of u will and that is certain...for the higher you set yourselves up the farther the fall and the harder the landing.

There but for the grace of God go I..remember it...

[jimjam]

If your bi-sexaul in a marraige and have chidren . if you love your partner. One person commented on finding out your gay at 40-50 and another sited long term relationships are not disposible. I agree with both. there is a term a white lie, it is a lie that is told to stop someone getting hurt. well if your in love still and want to be with your partner for ever , but the sexaul tension , desire interal rage to be with another man now and then is eating away at you driving you insane and u know your partner would leave you your children dis-owne you, your famly turn there back on you and finally ridculed at work or within your religion. [B]Is this a time for a white lie]

i think being bi-sexaul {a true bisexual desires the intimancy of both} is harder then being straight or being gay. no mans land. neither team trust you and both teams want you only on there side or the others.


[I][B]sex and sexuality is not our choice a fact ageed apon by many experts

[tenni]

GayZAN
Why are you posting on this thread?

You are not bisexual nor are you openly in favour of cheating (apparently)

You are suppose to be posting about why cheating is OK here...not condemning it. Give us your reasons why cheating is ok...or let this thread go.

What are you some type of fanatic?

[jimjam]

Lying about your sexuality so you can cheat on a partner is never excusable, OK, or justified.

You are giving the reasons that closet cases give for never coming out or for why they come out later in their 50s.

um excuse me , im not a closet case . And not everybody needs to come out or wants to come out. Coming out is a choice a freedom. u dont need to anounce your sexuality if you dont want to its a freedom that is been fought for. Am i seeing reverse descrimination????????????
Being bisexual means you like both were is the need to come out as gay or straight.
So if your a true bisexaul can one not/ is one not entiled to a relationship????????? myself i love m/m sex but thats it . i have had a m/m relationship its not for me. my partner{{{wife knows im bi first thing i told her when we met} so im out and i can ensure u theirs no excuse hear.


i think some people here make a mistake ... a true bisexual person sexauily requires both to be fullfilled.

coming out at 50 and saying im now gay is not bi sexaul . it making an identitie switch. a true bi is in the middle loves both is turned on by both identifys as both.

im concern a bi website has such narrow views and condems its member when thier struggling with there identietys. thats why they turn to these websites to find people that relate to them... not to be condemd

[Annika L]

Lying about your sexuality so you can cheat on a partner is never excusable, OK, or justified.

You are giving the reasons that closet cases give for never coming out or for why they come out later in their 50s.

The "reasons that closet cases give for never coming out" are part of what I wanted to hear when I posted my OP. You (or others) condemning people for what stage of the closet they may or may not be in is *not* what I wanted to hear.

If you want to condemn people either for cheating or for being in the closet, either find an appropriate thread to do it on or start your own. But the point of *this* thread is to give people insight into why people think cheating is ok at times...not to condemn people.

[tenni]

Thank you Anika for your efforts.

I'd like to read about perspectives as to why people involve themselves with outside of the relationship sex.

I've been chatting with someone privately. I knew about this scenario that some men (bi or straight) end up in when they marry. I'm not laying blame but some men find themselves in a very closed relationship with their wives. It is so closed that the man does not feel that he may establish male friendships outside of the marriage. One man was accused of a homosexual relationship when he wanted to spend time with another guy. Now, this was early in the relationship. If he has feelings of attraction to another man how is he to deal with this? Often, he shuts down on the communication.

Some wives knowingly or unknowingly close off the option of male friendships outside of the marriage. For a variety of reasons, some I understand and others I don't the guy ends up dying in the marriage. He loses himself as an individual. He no longer feels that he may openly communicate with his wife about his desires and that would include sexual matters. In some respects he loses his balls...lol

How is a man who has permitted himself to become so submissive to his wife to approach her about his desire for a bisexual relationship? He feels trapped. Staying quiet and cheating is a much easier path to follow.

[tenni]

Anika
Here is another situation. It may be seen as too weird to be true but as far as I can figure out, it is true.

A man decides that he is bisexual. He comes from a strong ethnic background that is well known to have a section that deals with a lot of illegal activity including murder. His family is involved in these actions and some in his family would actually kill him if they knew that he was sexually involved with men. It is that strong a taboo. He has been married once and is about to remarry. He is expected to marry. He separates the two aspects of his life and has removed himself from the criminal section. He was involved at one point though so that he is well aware about how things are done. The best solution would be to disclose but he firmly believes that his relatives would murder him.

[Long Duck Dong]

Anika
Here is another situation. It may be seen as too weird to be true but as far as I can figure out, it is true.

A man decides that he is bisexual. He comes from a strong ethnic background that is well known to have a section that deals with a lot of illegal activity including murder. His family is involved in these actions and some in his family would actually kill him if they knew that he was sexually involved with men. It is that strong a taboo. He has been married once and is about to remarry. He is expected to marry. He separates the two aspects of his life and has removed himself from the criminal section. He was involved at one point though so that he is well aware about how things are done. The best solution would be to disclose but he firmly believes that his relatives would murder him.

he knows the risks and yet he continues to do it..... he is fearful of dieing for outting.... but not that fearful of dieing that he goes and has sex with others.... ????

I am not sure I understand your point with that...... all i am seeing is a male that is more concerned with getting laid, than his own life...or the life of others that he places at risk and even with not outting himself, he runs the risk of getting caught anyway....

I am having trouble understanding how that would make cheating ok... or maybe you are seeing something I am missing...... can somebody point out what I am not seeing here

[tenni]

Well Anika asked for reasons why some think that cheating is ok

I didn't post for the nay sayers to make snide smart ass comments but some people's children well were not raised very well.

I wasn't writing that it was the wife's fault but it may be 50/50 in some cases. In some cases, it may be one or the other. If it prevents open communication and one partner believes that it is not possible to be that open, that is not good.

As far as fiction and crime. I don't really care what you believe. You have no idea what really goes on in some darker parts of societies if you don't think that is possible. Lots of other ethnic communities may also take a very dim view on same sex possibilities. It is just why some cheat and I don't have as simple an answer as some of the holier than thou's have. Therefore, I think that in some cases it is ok to cheat.

[JP1986UM]

Anika
Here is another situation. It may be seen as too weird to be true but as far as I can figure out, it is true.

A man decides that he is bisexual. He comes from a strong ethnic background that is well known to have a section that deals with a lot of illegal activity including murder. His family is involved in these actions and some in his family would actually kill him if they knew that he was sexually involved with men. It is that strong a taboo. He has been married once and is about to remarry. He is expected to marry. He separates the two aspects of his life and has removed himself from the criminal section. He was involved at one point though so that he is well aware about how things are done. The best solution would be to disclose but he firmly believes that his relatives would murder him.

If a man is so weak of character that he follows the company line to the point of not asserting his own individuality, he is no man at all, gay, straight, or bisexual. He's lost in the cult of society in which his own self succumbs to the group thought. He is in no way able to assert any independence in making a rational moral argument for acting on his bisexuality outside the construct of his own marriage covenant.

If he fears familial factors disowning him....best to just live up to his current obligations and forget any other desires or just keep them to himself. Its a closet of his own choosing.

[tenni]

"There are also A LOT of MEN who flat out refuse to get involved with bisexual women as girlfriends or wives because they think that "Oh she's bisexual so there's a part of her that me being a man can NEVER fulfill and give her! I might as well marry a straight girl who won't lust after other women or have affairs with them."

Is this a reason why some women cheat and you think that it is ok?

[tenni]

"
If he fears familial factors disowning him"

Uh...no it is not disowning. It is that he fears being murdered by his family if they find out.

[Spartik]

I'm surprised to say that I would feel more comfortable in a group of born again Christians than some of the people here. At least they love the sinner while hating the sin. When Bill Clinton finally confessed to his affair with Monica Lewinsky and they asked Billy Graham if he could understand it, he said, "Sure, he's a young healthy man." He didn't condone the cheating but he did understand and forgive the cheater. He later said at one of his crusades that Bill should become an evangelist and let Hillary run the country.

I think it's time some of us relaxed somewhat. You won't be lumped in with the cheaters and you aren't going to reform them by your harsh comments alone. If anything, they'll turn off to you.

You also might have some compassion for those in difficult situations due to their sexuality. Some choices are not easy to make.

[JP1986UM]

"
If he fears familial factors disowning him"

Uh...no it is not disowning. It is that he fears being murdered by his family if they find out.

Then its best he just follow the narrow, str8 path instead of cheating, getting caught, and dismembered,....as it were.

It still doesn't justify cheating. Period. There are no excuses or opt out clauses. If he's single now, he should stay that way. No problems.

[Spartik]

LMAO do you actually believe that bullshit? It's just their way of saying how they really do not like GLBT people but pretend to.

Just look at how popular the "ex" gay bullshit is with Born Again types, and how it has been proven not to work at all. Duh!

I didn't say I agreed with the born agains. Far from it. I merely said that some of the people we have here are as judgmental and hostile to those in difficult situations as the born agains. :(

[Long Duck Dong]

I am standing with annika on this thread.... and I am still waiting to see ANY reason why cheating is ok.....not excuses, not grey area justification..... but clear reasoning as to why it is ok ......

I have seen plenty of reasons why is it not ok, reasons and justifications on both sides as to why it is not and why people do cheat..... but no reasoning why it is ok to cheat.....

40% of the poll replies pointed to the fact that its ok to cheat..... but no valid reason as to why betrayal of trust is happening or why so many excuses as to why a person can not / will not be honest with the one they claim to love and respect....

so I can only assume that the answers must be, ( and the following is based around a number of years of counselling work and the reasonings I have been given for cheating / infidelity )


it is ok to cheat as a person has sexual wants and desires and believes that it is in their best interests not to risk their relationship or marriage and that justifies the right to be dishonest.

it is ok to cheat because the person is who they are and believe that they would be unfairly restricted or suffer severe loss if they were to be honest with their partner and that justifies dishonest behievour....

it is ok to cheat so that defining ones sexuality is possible with actual experimenting with other partners outside of the relationship / marriage....

it is ok to cheat because of a perceived and unconfirmed reaction by the spouse / partner to do with extra relationship / marital sexual contact ....

it is ok to cheat because it prevents the person having to be honest with their partner and is saving them from additional hurt, stress and confusion, with the understanding that the cheating persons actions are do with love and respect towards their partner.....

it is ok to cheat because it saves the family, friends and loved ones from a short to long term period of questions, concerns, misunderstandings, blame laying and other issues......

( this one is my favourite, said to me by a male )

it is ok to cheat, as I do not have the balls to face my partner, look her square in the eye and admit that I have lied and cheated my way through the relations and that it is easier to worry about my sexual contention, than her feelings or thoughts on the matter


I find it sad that I have to post reasons in clear terms as to why its ok to cheat, when I do not condone cheating or infidelity.....yet many of the people that believe cheating is ok, could not do it..... but hid behind excuses and * grey area * arguments...

[jimjam]

I'm surprised to say that I would feel more comfortable in a group of born again Christians than some of the people here. At least they love the sinner while hating the sin. When Bill Clinton finally confessed to his affair with Monica Lewinsky and they asked Billy Graham if he could understand it, he said, "Sure, he's a young healthy man." He didn't condone the cheating but he did understand and forgive the cheater. He later said at one of his crusades that Bill should become an evangelist and let Hillary run the country.

I think it's time some of us relaxed somewhat. You won't be lumped in with the cheaters and you aren't going to reform them by your harsh comments alone. If anything, they'll turn off to you.

You also might have some compassion for those in difficult situations due to their sexuality. Some choices are not easy to make.

i so agree just because in your words being out having open retionships are ok does not mean its the same for everyone . some people struggle with there sexuality, hey as an out bi man i know i had women get up and leave the restrant during a date "i dont go out with poofs".
fuck me,or is that not allowed in this church

[tenni]

"It still doesn't justify cheating. Period. There are no excuses or opt out clauses. If he's single now, he should stay that way. No problems."


I would agree but you are missing the point.(again) His life is in danger whether he is married or single if they find out. In fact, I get the idea that marriage and children are expected from him. He also states that he loves his fiancee. He is weak in some respects from some people's view for wanting to be both with men and women. It is really weird that there is such intolerance from some bisexuals. Its your way or you are a bad person. As others have posted, some of you are just plain bullheaded stupid. You have one perspective and that is an intolerant one. So, stop posting or should I write evangalizing. You're right the bisexuals who don't live their life like you are bad people. (not)

[curiousjmd]

I have not taken the time to read the entire thread but have read enough to hear some opinions.
My 2 cents. Its not ok to cheat. Its lying and deception. Even if you are just testing the waters. Ive been married for 33 years. most all have been wonderful. I have always been honest and told my wife everything including my bisexual desires and crossdressing. A couple times I had wanted to test my bisexual desires but never have because its cheating.
Then the past summer I meet the most wonderful women. I was not looking to meet anyone, it just happened. She lite up my world and I have never been happier and we have not been to bed yet. My wife knows of the affair. Doesnt approve and thinks it will pass but its not going to. I plan to be with this other women.
What I have done is not right and there are no justifications for it. Except one. Im happy. Happeier then Ive ever been.
What Ive learned is never judge someone for thier actions. Whether you think its right or wrong you do not know all the details of a relation ship. It could happen to anyone anytime.

[tenni]

I am standing with annika on this thread.... and I am still waiting to see ANY reason why cheating is ok.....not excuses, not grey area justification..... but clear reasoning as to why it is ok ......


LLD
Uh..here is what Anika wrote. I think that you (and some of the other fanatics) are failing reading comprehension at a grade 4 level?

"Also I am not interested in this turning into a debate over whether cheating is ok...I just want to hear how people rationalize it to themselves...so there can be
NO WRONG ANSWERS!!"

[Long Duck Dong]

I am standing with annika on this thread.... and I am still waiting to see ANY reason why cheating is ok.....not excuses, not grey area justification..... but clear reasoning as to why it is ok ......


LLD
Uh..here is what Anika wrote. I think that you (and some of the other fanatics) are failing reading comprehension at a grade 4 level?

"Also I am not interested in this turning into a debate over whether cheating is ok...I just want to hear how people rationalize it to themselves...so there can be
NO WRONG ANSWERS!!"

I am aware of what annika said...... you already know that I do not condone cheating, but I am also sharing what cheaters outside of the site have shared with me and THEIR reasoning......and I am not deciding if their reasoning is acceptable or not....

I am not saying any reasons are wrong, I have asked you a few times to clarify things for me so I can understand your point of view..... I am putting aside my point of view and opening my eyes, ears and heart .....

now I am doing my best to make my answers as clear and as informative as possible so people do not have to ask me to clarify my statements...

.in fact I have posted about what level of cheating I understand and accept as viable.....
and now I am a fanatic ???? with low level reading ability ?????

[Jackal]

"It still doesn't justify cheating. Period. There are no excuses or opt out clauses. If he's single now, he should stay that way. No problems."


I would agree but you are missing the point.(again) His life is in danger whether he is married or single if they find out. In fact, I get the idea that marriage and children are expected from him. He also states that he loves his fiancee. He is weak in some respects from some people's view for wanting to be both with men and women. It is really weird that there is such intolerance from some bisexuals. Its your way or you are a bad person. As others have posted, some of you are just plain bullheaded stupid. You have one perspective and that is an intolerant one. So, stop posting or should I write evangalizing. You're right the bisexuals who don't live their life like you are bad people. (not)

See, you still haven't explained why it's okay for him to lie and be dishonest with this fiance you say he loves, just so he can have something he wants. What does our bisexuality have to do with this question exactly? That we should be more open covert sexual activity? I don't see how the two are related. I don't think that anyone has said that he shouldn't want both men and women. As far as I'm concerned its about marrying someone because he thinks he should ("marriage and children are expected of him") and then doing things behind their back because he wants something. Sometimes you don't get to have everything you want in life. Just because because he can't have something through honest means doesn't mean that is license to be dishonest. Especially when it can hurt someone else.

BTW telling everyone they are 'holier-than-thou","ignorant", "fanatical" and "stupid" does not enhance any point you have to make, it actually makes those terms apply to you more accurately than anyone you throw them at.

In response to the original question: I don't think that cheating is ever 100% okay but maybe there are situations where someone is mentally or emotionally compromised or in cases of abuse that makes them do things they wouldn't normally do and so some leeway might be warranted.

[tenni]

"BTW telling everyone they are 'holier-than-thou","ignorant", "fanatical" and "stupid" does not enhance any point you have to make, it actually makes those terms apply to you more accurately than anyone you throw them at. "

Sorry but is your literacy level showing or is there another reason ?

1/ Anika asked for reasons why some might find cheating acceptable. No answers were wrong. No arguing about whether cheating is right or wrong.

2/ Everyone is not being called "holier than thou." Just the individuals who act in a fanatical manner and attempt to impose their values on others regardless of the situations that the other person decides to cheat.

I do believe that cheating is not the best approach but there are situations where I find it inappropriate for me to impose my views. Now, my words are different than writing that it is wrong.

In the case of the man whose life is in danger if he is ever found out that he has sex with men, well no justification will be given. Personally, I find it hard to judge him while other have no problems or do not believe that some live with such fear. He has rationalized his fears and decided that he wants to be both with men and women. He is an imperfect man.


So, why is it that some posters are not able to honour Anika's request of not judging. NO ANSWER IS WRONG concept? I'm inclined to think about fanaticism?

[Annika L]

So, why is it that some posters are not able to honour Anika's [sic] request of not judging. NO ANSWER IS WRONG concept? I'm inclined to think about fanaticism?

Yes, why is that? This is such an interesting phenomenon. A poll of nearly 300 members has shown that around 2/3 of them disapprove of cheating, and yet when I ask *why* the ones who think cheating is ok feel the way they do, people *still* find the need to register their majority opinion even once again...or twice again...or more...even after repeated calls for openness and tolerance in this conversation.

But I don't think it is fanaticism, exactly.

I think it is fear and laziness. I think many people don't *want* to think about why someone may see things differently...I think they are terrified that someone may actually offer up a reason that makes sense to them, or at least a reason that is genuinely challenging to respond to...and it's *so* much easier to just try to shut down or at least dilute that conversation by shouting "CHEATING IS WRONG" like a mantra.

In the words of Darth Vader, "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." If a belief that cheating is wrong is worth having, then it's worth hearing the other side and exploring what they think as well...yes, you may be confronted by some challenging notions, and yes *sigh*, it may require some thought...but a belief that's worth having is worth some thought, right? If you don't like to think about such stuff, just read another thread...maybe one with some nice mindless humor in it.

But by all means, as Spartik implores...be a little more friggin kind, won't you, to people who see things differently from you. You don't have to tolerate your s.o. cheating on you, but at least tolerate people here who have reasons for cheating that work for them (just take their names down and by no means *date* them!!! :tong:).

[pssst, tenni...my name has two n's in it :cool:]

[tenni]

Annika L

Opps! So sorry Annika about the spelling. I must remember to copy the name of people as I don't see it while writing my comments.

Good point about fear. I'm just saying similar things...alas more assertively.

[tenni]

"I think many people don't *want* to think about why someone may see things differently."

Bisexuals are different than the majority. We should spend time discussing our differences and accepting others who are not "just like us". As Annika wrote..you don't have to date those who are different...lol

[Long Duck Dong]

annika, mikey 3000 posted a profound remark in my thread ( the address this issue, thread ) what about the cheaters right to privacy....

it is one of the most clear cut, profound statements I have read....and addresses a aspect of relationships that is getting over looked....

in open relationships we suggest setting rules, guidelines and boundaries... but in closed or monogamous relationships often we DON'T

so it rises the issue of is cheating ok or not ok in a relationship where it has not been addressed...... and honestly its a good question..
using a middle of the line view, we can say yes or no to cheating being ok....
but with mikeys remark added to the mix..... we get the following

1 ) nobody agreed that its not ok to go outside of the relationship
2 ) nobody agreed that it is ok to go outside of the relationship
3 ) nobodies rights are infringed upon because we never talked about it, we ASSUMED somethings so do we have the right to expect our partner not to cheat and does our partner has the right.....

on this aspect I have to walk the middle ground and state clearly that assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.... as the issue was not discussed in the relationship so by relationship standards, it is neither right or wrong.....

there is no moral / ethical ground that can be walked here.... it can not be justified or villified because it has not being addressed directly

now if cheating takes place in a monogamous relationship, we define it by breach of trust and honesty and loyalty....

if the cheating partner DOESN'T deny it or state they will never go to anothers arms ( or other terms ) they have not broken a statement of trust

if the cheating partner DOESN'T *swear* loyalty or faithfulness to a partner then by defination, they have not broken statements of faithfulness or loyalty

if the cheating partner DOESN'T make any statement that covers up, hides or denies their cheating, then by defination, they have not broken a statement of honesty.....

it really comes down to a aspect of relationships that we did not consider....and that can be the wedding vows..... if they are traditional, then they are null and void in the case of cheating.....as the cheating person has indeed broken the vows...... if they are custom written, then its possible they didn't and the wedding vows still stand

now bearing in mind that I am a * intolerant, literacy challenged, fanatical anti cheating person that is not accepting of others points of view ( view point of another site member )..... I wish to give credit and thanks to mikey 3000 ( whom is a * debater * for the *other* team ) for a clear and concise remark that has highlighted a aspect of relationships that can make or break a lot of the arguments for and against cheating, and that has given me the ability once again, to cross the floor and act in favor of the pro cheating team.... something that I should not do as it means that I must be tolerant and willing to look at all sides, something that I should not do as I am intolerant......

[Jackal]

Sorry but is your literacy level showing or is there another reason ?

So, why is it that some posters are not able to honour Anika's request of not judging. NO ANSWER IS WRONG concept? I'm inclined to think about fanaticism?

Telling us we can't read isn't anymore constructive or less fanatical than other insults. If everyone else misunderstands you, maybe the problem is with how you explain things. You seem to mistake people not seeing your scenarios as valid reasons for cheating as a lack of intelligence. Fanatics aren't just people who disagree with you.

In response to the 'there is no wrong answer' thing, yeah that's what you said, but you can't tell people what to do. The conversation long ago moved on and grew into something else (whether its constructive or not is another matter) just like conversations in person do. You may have started it but once you post it, it belongs to everyone on the forum.

And I can understand and see other people's points of view. But I will not accept them just because it's PC to do so; when someone actually comes up with a good situation where cheating is okay then I will agree with them. That has yet to happen. Before you say, "that's just your opinion", yeah it is my opinion this is a forum, the point is to give opinions.

[Jackal]

in open relationships we suggest setting rules, guidelines and boundaries... but in closed or monogamous relationships often we DON'T

so it rises the issue of is cheating ok or not ok in a relationship where it has not been addressed...... and honestly its a good question..
using a middle of the line view, we can say yes or no to cheating being ok....
but with mikeys remark added to the mix..... we get the following

1 ) nobody agreed that its not ok to go outside of the relationship
2 ) nobody agreed that it is ok to go outside of the relationship
3 ) nobodies rights are infringed upon because we never talked about it, we ASSUMED somethings so do we have the right to expect our partner not to cheat and does our partner has the right.....

on this aspect I have to walk the middle ground and state clearly that assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.... as the issue was not discussed in the relationship so by relationship standards, it is neither right or wrong.....

there is no moral / ethical ground that can be walked here.... it can not be justified or villified because it has not being addressed directly

now if cheating takes place in a monogamous relationship, we define it by breach of trust and honesty and loyalty....

if the cheating partner DOESN'T deny it or state they will never go to anothers arms ( or other terms ) they have not broken a statement of trust

if the cheating partner DOESN'T *swear* loyalty or faithfulness to a partner then by defination, they have not broken statements of faithfulness or loyalty

if the cheating partner DOESN'T make any statement that covers up, hides or denies their cheating, then by defination, they have not broken a statement of honesty.....

it really comes down to a aspect of relationships that we did not consider....and that can be the wedding vows..... if they are traditional, then they are null and void in the case of cheating.....as the cheating person has indeed broken the vows...... if they are custom written, then its possible they didn't and the wedding vows still stand


I agree, it's a very interesting idea. Maybe a little shitty but not everyone is out to hurt people and looks to twist words. I think that is a fault of many relationships not just the monogamous ones, to assume what the rules are.

To push the situation further, what if people are separated or 'taking a break' from each other and it what not explicitly stated or mentioned at all whether or not it was okay to see other people? Or if they define "seeing other people" differently.

[still_shy]

I'm going out on a limb here and admitting something that may or may not cause me a lot of grief...I have been a cheater. My only time cheating was when I was 18 and in an abusive relationship, it was with a good friend I cared about and offered me a little tiny slice of happiness in an otherwise miserable existence. To me, at the time, the cheating was completely ok. He was cheating on me and had been for a few years...I was too terrified to leave the relationship and in all honesty, I'm glad I did it. I don't regret that little bit of good times I found during a living hell. AND I don't believe that it made me a horrible person or any less of one at that.

To say that I am completely opposed to cheating would be a lie. I'm opposed to cheating in most every other situation but I also agree that there are no absolutes in life.

I don't know if this was the type of answer you're looking for Annika but it's one scenario that hasn't been addressed yet ( I don't think)

[still_shy]

I was 18 years old, living in a small town with nowhere to go. I tried to leave several times and didn't get far before he found me and beat the crap out of me for it. Foolish? Maybe. But you have no idea the hell people live through. Don't be so quick to judge. In a perfect world, I could have found another place to live far away and slapped his ass with a restraining order...But it's not a perfect world.

This thread was supposed to be judgement free. Shoulda known better. I was not justifying my cheating. I was explaining the situation and what drove me to seek happiness elsewhere. What freaking loyalty to I owe to someone who busted up my jaw, deafened one of my ears, broke my ribs and did things to me that NO ONE should have to go through? At the time, I was just biding my time until I could get the hell out of there. Isitallovermyface--have you been in an abusive relationship? Do you know anything about the situation you are judging?

[bi-the-way]

I'm going out on a limb here and admitting something that may or may not cause me a lot of grief...I have been a cheater. My only time cheating was when I was 18 and in an abusive relationship, it was with a good friend I cared about and offered me a little tiny slice of happiness in an otherwise miserable existence. To me, at the time, the cheating was completely ok. He was cheating on me and had been for a few years...I was too terrified to leave the relationship and in all honesty, I'm glad I did it. I don't regret that little bit of good times I found during a living hell. AND I don't believe that it made me a horrible person or any less of one at that.

To say that I am completely opposed to cheating would be a lie. I'm opposed to cheating in most every other situation but I also agree that there are no absolutes in life.

I don't know if this was the type of answer you're looking for Annika but it's one scenario that hasn't been addressed yet ( I don't think)

All I have to say is, sorry you were put through hell, still shy! Nobody deserves that kind of treatment. I cannot say you did anything wrong by seeking out comfort and hope. As you said, he was already cheating on you, and before anyone else says it, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, howerever, in your case it may have been the only thing that saved you. I personally feel you may still be here today because you found someone whom cared about you. I think the world is a better place with you in it, and would be a better place without people like your ex. Just my :2cents: worth.

btw

[Realist]

I agree, By-The-Way.

Shy's needs may not have been met in the best of situations, but the love offered her was like an oasis, I'm sure.

I've cheated in the past, too. I've made some really bad decisions and have paid for it ever since. I will try to convince anyone that cheating is not the way to find peace and happiness, but I also know that when you're in pain, your reasoning ability and willpower may not be working at 100%.

"Any port in the storm" may be a way of regaining your sanity, or a step into hell.

I will continue to give my advice to refrain from cheating, but cannot condemn anyone..........because how could I know their thought process, or situation?

Each of us must do what we think is best for us and no one else.

[curiousjmd]

I think its been determinded cheating is wrong. Those of us who have cheated know that even if we have justified it to ourself. What I think is worse then cheating is judging someone else for their actions. We all live by our own rules that we have set for ourselves. We have been taught what is right or wrong by our parents school and or church. I don"t think its fair to judge someone for their actions when you don't have all the facts. People cheat for many reasons. Still shy is a perfect example. She had a reason for cheating. Was it the right thing to do. In her mind it was. And to me thats all that matters. For those who believe she was in the wrong no matter what, that is your right also. But at the same time it is not your right to tell her what to do.
I think people should live thier life by the rules they have set for themself. A person with high morals will live completely different then a person with low or no morals.
I don't believe cheating is ok. But it happens.

[darkeyes]

Shy hun.. nun of us r perfect...cheatin is summat every 1 dus (tho here me talkin bout life in general not specifically sex an relationships) in sum way gr8 or small..we all hav our own reasons for cheatin an each of us can justify ver easily 2 oursels... justifyin it 2 the world at large is a course anotha matta.. an in the case a sex an relationships..don even try 2 a partner... in me own case wen younga.. it wos a case a bein daft an immature an jus bein selfish an goin out an doin me own thing wiv whoeva.. an every 1 of us haav dun that an all in sum way or otha (again in general terms.. but if specifically then such is life).

Last time wos a rite doosy..an it wos jus so destructive 2 sum 1 me cared for an care for moren ne otha..even mesel.. sed earlier in anotha post me did it outa luff for anotha...an its true..but Kate gave me wot for wen she read it an told me in no uncertain terms..wos also outa gross an uncarin selfishness..an she is rite.. but ther r times wen we r drawn inexorably inta summat, wetha outa luff, selfishness or jus lust.. we shudn allow oursels 2 b..but we do... an bein human we r all susceptible 2 it. Even the paragons of perfection.. an if as in ur case ther is abuse involved...then 2 sum extent ther is justification..self preservation is a powerful thing.. an its not always easy jus 2 eff off elsewer as sum peeps seem 2 think.. even abused peeps need luff an ther needs satisfied...

Not sure bout ther bein no rong ansa's in this thread.. ther r ansas.. 2 sum they r rite 2 sum rong.. each of us can, if not justify, at least explain an give reasons wy we cheated... an in end... no 1 shud eva ask for more.. even then..except for the person cheated upon..thats far 2 much...

[still_shy]

As always, Darlin Frannie...you said it a million times better than I ever could have!

When I posted my response to this thread, it wasn't to justify or explain my actions, it was just to give another point of view to the argument in question. I wasn't seeking sympathy on any level...just thought my situation may help others understand that there are times when as bi the way said, it may have been the only thing that saved me. The only thing I knew of relationships at that point in my life (he was my first and only boyfriend) was of abuse, sexually, physically and emotionally. The physical act of cheating wasn't what was important in my case, although it did show me that sex could be loving and wonderful...what was important was the kindness and love shown to me during a time when my body was battered and broken and my mind wasn't much better off. It taught me a powerful lesson. It proved to me that there was something else out there for me and strengthened my resolve to find a way, any way, to get out. I try not to let things said to me in the forums get to me but I'm still smarting a bit from an earlier response that made leaving an awful person sound so very easy. Anyways, that's beside the issue and I won't address it further.

The issue is cheating. I can't possibly come up with a scenario today that would cause me to cheat. I love my husband dearly and wouldn't want to hurt him in that way or betray his trust. But it is out there, people do it every day for whatever reasons they have...it's life.

[Annika L]

I'm going out on a limb here and admitting something that may or may not cause me a lot of grief...I have been a cheater. My only time cheating was when I was 18 and in an abusive relationship, it was with a good friend I cared about and offered me a little tiny slice of happiness in an otherwise miserable existence. To me, at the time, the cheating was completely ok. He was cheating on me and had been for a few years...I was too terrified to leave the relationship and in all honesty, I'm glad I did it. I don't regret that little bit of good times I found during a living hell. AND I don't believe that it made me a horrible person or any less of one at that.

To say that I am completely opposed to cheating would be a lie. I'm opposed to cheating in most every other situation but I also agree that there are no absolutes in life.

I don't know if this was the type of answer you're looking for Annika but it's one scenario that hasn't been addressed yet ( I don't think)

Thanks so much for this perspective, shy. And I'm so sorry somebody tried to slap you for posting it...again, if I could boot people from a thread, I would!

I think your response resonates well with Spartik's notion that "some people's lives aren't so straightforward." I feel that between the two of you (and bits and pieces from others), I can much better understand how 35-40% of people would say they think cheating is acceptable under some circumstances. I'm sure some of those people just prefer not to think, and have no considered reason...but some of the other 60% suffer from that as well, seemingly.

Now lest anyone get panicked about my soul, or my relationship, let me say that I don't find myself any more likely to cheat based on the answers given in this thread (good news to some, bad to others, I'm sure :tong:)...just more able to understand where others are coming from.

Thanks to all who contributed thoughts that moved the conversation forward!



Not sure bout ther bein no rong ansa's in this thread.. ther r ansas.. 2 sum they r rite 2 sum rong.. each of us can, if not justify, at least explain an give reasons wy we cheated... an in end... no 1 shud eva ask for more.. even then..except for the person cheated upon..thats far 2 much...

Certainly there are behaviors that are right for some, and wrong for others.

But I asked how people who think cheating is ok rationalize that to themselves...there is no wrong answer to that, other than one that doesn't address the question.

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm going out on a limb here and admitting something that may or may not cause me a lot of grief...I have been a cheater. My only time cheating was when I was 18 and in an abusive relationship, it was with a good friend I cared about and offered me a little tiny slice of happiness in an otherwise miserable existence. To me, at the time, the cheating was completely ok. He was cheating on me and had been for a few years...I was too terrified to leave the relationship and in all honesty, I'm glad I did it. I don't regret that little bit of good times I found during a living hell. AND I don't believe that it made me a horrible person or any less of one at that.

To say that I am completely opposed to cheating would be a lie. I'm opposed to cheating in most every other situation but I also agree that there are no absolutes in life.

I don't know if this was the type of answer you're looking for Annika but it's one scenario that hasn't been addressed yet ( I don't think)

hugs ya still shy..... and thank you..... you have posted something that I dared not ask for...... a clear example of extenuating circumstances in a relationship.....

your story speaks to me of something beyond cheating for the sake of sex or lust..... and thats when I become more accepting of things.....

to me you never set out to sleep with another person, you reached out for a port in the storm and a reason to hold your head above water....

we all do that, reach out for friends or open arms as a reason to keep going, keep believing that things can only get better..... the sexual contact comes as a secondary aspect... kinda like the last thing on ya mind but it happens anyway and the person becomes more than just a fling, they become your lifeline.....

the difference I see there, is one of support and help, leading to sexual contact v's I want sex with anybody who is willing to fuck me, but I am delibrately doing it ....

your case is one where I do have understanding and tolerance of cheating and I show a open minded side to my opinion of cheating and cheaters.... and I tend to label it, accidental cheating v's delibrate cheating.....and I would not condemn you for your actions..... as without it, you may have not been here now...... and the fact you are, is something I am thankful for

[still_shy]

Thank you guys for understanding why I posted my experience. I felt the need to clarify that there are some situations where cheating might not be condemned. On the flip side, I have had the opportunity to cheat several times since I've been with my husband and not once considered it. So, the old saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" doesn't apply to my situation.

Love, ss

[rissababynta]

hugs ya still shy..... and thank you..... you have posted something that I dared not ask for...... a clear example of extenuating circumstances in a relationship.....

your story speaks to me of something beyond cheating for the sake of sex or lust..... and thats when I become more accepting of things.....

to me you never set out to sleep with another person, you reached out for a port in the storm and a reason to hold your head above water....

we all do that, reach out for friends or open arms as a reason to keep going, keep believing that things can only get better..... the sexual contact comes as a secondary aspect... kinda like the last thing on ya mind but it happens anyway and the person becomes more than just a fling, they become your lifeline.....

the difference I see there, is one of support and help, leading to sexual contact v's I want sex with anybody who is willing to fuck me, but I am delibrately doing it ....

your case is one where I do have understanding and tolerance of cheating and I show a open minded side to my opinion of cheating and cheaters.... and I tend to label it, accidental cheating v's delibrate cheating.....and I would not condemn you for your actions..... as without it, you may have not been here now...... and the fact you are, is something I am thankful for

Very well put. The main reason why so many people are against cheating is because people get hurt by it. In a case like yours shy...you were already being horribly hurt -emotionally and physically- and in order for you to recollect yourself and salvage your own sanity and existance it was something that just came about. You did not deliberately set out to do something knowing that an innocent party would be hurt.

[rissababynta]

Thank you guys for understanding why I posted my experience. I felt the need to clarify that there are some situations where cheating might not be condemned. On the flip side, I have had the opportunity to cheat several times since I've been with my husband and not once considered it. So, the old saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" doesn't apply to my situation.

Love, ss

I have never agreed with the whole "always a cheater..." thing. Yeah, in a lot of cases past actions are a good indicator of future ones, but I think that the theory as a definite conclusion is bullshit. Sometimes people just make mistakes and it's that simple. I've known many people that have simply made mistakes after being put in an awkward position and losing themselves. I myself had gotten caught up in a bad situation. It doesn't mean that these people will do it again.

I think that the only time the theory has a good chance at being true is when someone is known for a being a repeat offender and doesn't feel that badly about it to begin with.

[jimjam]

there is one other fundimental reason people cheat. If anyone of the jugmenl people here now sex is a basic need. refer to maslows theory of needs if your not getting it at home there is 99% chance you will. sex our most primal need it is geneticaly encoded in us to seek it out.

[mikey3000]

I'm surprised to say that I would feel more comfortable in a group of born again Christians than some of the people here. At least they love the sinner while hating the sin. When Bill Clinton finally confessed to his affair with Monica Lewinsky and they asked Billy Graham if he could understand it, he said, "Sure, he's a young healthy man." He didn't condone the cheating but he did understand and forgive the cheater. He later said at one of his crusades that Bill should become an evangelist and let Hillary run the country.

I think it's time some of us relaxed somewhat. You won't be lumped in with the cheaters and you aren't going to reform them by your harsh comments alone. If anything, they'll turn off to you.

You also might have some compassion for those in difficult situations due to their sexuality. Some choices are not easy to make.


BRAVO SIR!!!!!

The amount of judgement that goes on here is shocking to say the least. Even people who facilitate the cheating, and some who have cheated before comming out are the worst stone throwers here. They are just as militant to their values as the religious fanatics are to theirs. Pot+kettle=black. Enough already!!! It's pathetic.

LOve the sinners, hate the sin. We will never achieve anything if we go against one another in our own bisexual community. To each his own.

***to LDD, thanks for your kind words. I truly believe that there are 360 different ways to view a situation, and no two are exactly alike. Everyone sees things from their aspect, their paradigm, and no one's view is worthless. But you'd never gess that by some of the petty comments on here.

*** and Tenni, the reinforcements I mentioned earlier? They're heeeeerrrrrrreeeeee. I know who they are.

[Lienda]

Cheating is not ok. I heard some excuses for it, that don't get my sympathy. There are three women I met in person who had cheating spouses. All three men cheated with other women. It caused their family enough damage.

[mikey3000]

Let's not for get the women cheaters, as women are almost just as likely to cheat on their husbands too.

[goldenfinger]

I have no religious background, I do not take the high moral ground, and it is not for people to judge other people about something they may know nothing about. I have never cheated on my wife, and will try not to. However, we have been a party to a friend, cheating on her cheating and abusive husband. A case of what goes around, comes around.Someone said, keeping your sanity, I think is a good enough excuse. I rather be a person whom people think about as a person who might cheat, then a person who is fanatic about taking the high moral ground, and when they fall, they really fall hard.The higher they claim their moral ground, the more likely they are to cover up their own weakness.
Some people here just want to be right, they answer questions they have been asked not to, they just can't help them self. People like that can't be much fun to live with.

[Long Duck Dong]

there is one other fundimental reason people cheat. If anyone of the jugmenl people here now sex is a basic need. refer to maslows theory of needs if your not getting it at home there is 99% chance you will. sex our most primal need it is geneticaly encoded in us to seek it out.

sex is not a need, its a desire...... and there is no evidence of a sex gene, but signs of inherent traits that are biological in need.....
hence the sex drive, not the sex gene....and thats why they have never found the * gay * gene....

if we are to argue that sex is a need and genetic, then we can argue that people with high sex drives are *hard wired * to be more likely to lie and cheat in relationships and that is something I do not accept....cos it tars too many people with the same brush....

[mikey3000]

Annika L

I see that you still haven't got a clear answer on why it is ok to cheat. Now at the risk of being targeted again (yes, you know who you are!!!), I will try to answer.

What if a young lady, married, and a mother of two small kids, started having feelings for her single girlfriend. These feelings are new to her and she doesn't understand them. Then she is offered to explore these new found sexual feelings. So she tells her husband that she has these feelings for her friend and wants to act on them. He says to do what she has to do.

So she makes a date with the girlfriend, they go out to dinner, drink a bit of wine and head back to the girlfriend's place. There it happens. They have sex. All nigh long.

But in the morning, now thinking with a clear head, she realizes that it wasn't what she thought it would be. She realized that it was just her stress at being a stay at home mom, and maybe her husband's tiredness and temporary lack of interest in sex (what young parents haven't been there, eh?) that got her wondering about sex with her girlfriend and her exciting, single lifestyle.

Relieved that she is not gay after all. She quickly dresses and rushes home to share the good news with her beloved husband, only to find that, when she swings open the door, the house is cleared out, husband and children are gone, and divorce papers are sitting on the table. Her life is ruined.

Wouldn't it have been better to explore these feelings first on her own, to get a handle on them, before telling her husband, thus effectively ending her marriage. I think so.

[Long Duck Dong]

the trouble with that mikey, is that its a catch 22..... what if she didn't tell her husband and he find out and divorced her....

your scenerio shows a act of trust and respect before acting on the impulses...... something that many people find to be paramount in a relationship or marriage.....you do show that yes there are risks involved with coming out and exploring.....

unfortunately your question is, if it better to betray ya partner and hope you do not get caught out ...... as lies can kill many relationships that are not strong enuf to weather thru issues like that.....

as many people, including myself have posted, its not the cheating that is the issue.... its the lies and deceit that are the issue....
if a person can lie about extramartial affairs, what else have they lied about.... have they lied about loving you, and that is something that most people ask if they find out about cheating in a relationship....

[TwylaTwobits]

There is no good reason to cheat, there are no extenuating circumstances that make it okay to violate the trust your partner has in you.


That being said... my soon to be legally ex husband cheated on me with a person he met online.

Only happened once, but once was enough. His justification was that he didn't think I cared because I'd come home and be too tired to even spend time with my sons let alone him.

What made it almost surreal is he thought I was lying about being tired. Two days after he admits he cheated and why, there was a letter from my doctor requesting my medical documents for the last few years as my chest xray showed bronchial tubes closed off causing me to not get enough oxygen, thus making me tired.

So while there was a reason for me being tired, the fact he never discussed his feelings of me "not caring" led to him cheating. So he opened it up for me to be exposed to all kinds of diseases not to mention emotional pain because like a spoiled two year old he wanted it all and he wanted it now.

What makes it even better is that his cheating was not the reason for the divorce, the reason was he never grew up in 10 years. Now I am with someone who is bisexual, yet willing to be faithful. Making a commitment to me to be my only partner and to satisfy any urgings between the two of us.

Yet I am seeing everyone posting that people cheat because they are bisexual. Maybe I'm wrong but all definitions and what I have learned on this site from reading many many threads is that bisexual means the capability of having an emotional attachment to either sex. Emotional...not sexual.... there is no justification for cheating. None.

[tenni]

sex is not a need, its a desire...... and there is no evidence of a sex gene, but signs of inherent traits that are biological in need.....
hence the sex drive, not the sex gene....and thats why they have never found the * gay * gene....

if we are to argue that sex is a need and genetic, then we can argue that people with high sex drives are *hard wired * to be more likely to lie and cheat in relationships and that is something I do not accept....cos it tars too many people with the same brush....


LDD

Sorry but you are quite incorrect with your attempt to correct JimJam. Check your source again.

[B]Sex is among the first level of needs according to Maslow. The phyisological needs are: breathing, food, water, sex, sleep, homeostatis, excretion. As a first level of needs it is much stronger than higher level of needs such as: Safety (second level of basic needs). Within the second level is morality, security of body, employment, family, health, and property. So the need for sexual activity may over rule morality as a basic need.

Maslow has had his detractors and some have argued that the needs are not hierarchal. Alderfer's ERG theory also accounts for differences in need preferences between cultures better than Maslow's Need Hierarchy; the order of needs can be different for different people.

I'm not sure that you have given a very strong argument against Maslow. Maslow's hierachy is still generally recognized today.

Your genetic comments seem out of place as JimJam didn't argue about the sex (activity) need being a sex gene?

[Long Duck Dong]

I was not correcting him.......

there is need and there is desire......

I need to breath, I need to eat, I need to shit....... I desire to breath clean air, not air filled with cigarette smoke, I desire to eat certain forms of food, I desire to use a toliet, not a hole in the ground

show me where sex is something that will kill a human being unless they have it..... and I will call it a need not a desire.......

the genetic comments were from me, not jimjam and I was making the point that there is no proof of genetic disposition or that we are driven to commit extramarital sexual contact because of a genetic aspect

I would love to see ANY medical / scientific VALID and documented proof that people are * hard wired * to cheat cos of a genetic or psychological or biological aspect, and not using isolated case studies but a multi cultural / gender / sexuality study

if anybody can post that I will walk down the main street of my town fully naked, get pics and post them and the details of my court case for indecent exposure as well

[Long Duck Dong]

by the way maslows research is biased ....so do not try using it as a valid defence... its like using kinseys as a 100% accurate guide to sexuality

wiki maslows page
Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a theory in psychology, proposed by Abraham Maslow in his 1943 paper A Theory of Human Motivation,[2] which he subsequently extended to include his observations of humans' innate curiosity.

Maslow studied what he called exemplary people such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy."[3] Maslow also studied the healthiest one percent of the college student population. In his book, The Farther Reaches of Human Nature, Maslow writes, "By ordinary standards of this kind of laboratory research... this simply was not research at all. My generalizations grew out of my selection of certain kinds of people. Obviously, other judges are needed."[4]

1 ^ Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
2 ^ A.H. Maslow, A Theory of Human Motivation, Psychological Review 50(4) (1943):370-96.
3 ^ Maslow, Abraham (1954). Motivation and Personality. New York:. Harper. p. 236.
4 ^ Maslow, A.H. (1971). The farther reaches of human nature. New York: Penguin Compass. Chpt 3, "Self-actualizing and beyond", p. 41.

[tenni]

"by the way maslows research is biased .."

I agree that Maslow may be similar to Kinsey in the sense that both were people who created the base for the theories. However, I find your premise that by not studying all possibilities in humanity has been already discussed by Alderfer's ERG theory.

Your arguments really don't matter as far as the point of this thread. Again, a few are chosing to argue to dismiss the reasons why someone may cheat. That extremist attitude when it was requested not to argue but to accept given reasons seems to raise questions about your purpose for posting on this thread. We were requested to give reasons why cheating is ok.

Maslow's theory and those who have built upon the theory may be a reason why some may cheat. The basic need for sexual activity may over rule a person's morality. It is a rather interesting and strong reason. Accept it.

REMEMBER NO ANSWER IS TO BE WRONG. I wonder about your own unfulfilled needs that makes you constantly come in to this thread to argue rather than accept the reason? NO ANSWER is required on this thread. You seem to have enough threads about cheating to carry on with your intolerant crusade.

[Long Duck Dong]

roflmao

have you read my replies to people ???? have you seen the way I have supported people that say THEY cheated..... I have discussed THEIR stories, their reasoning and in a few cases stated, I look beyond the cheating and in a few cases, validated the cheating as reasonable and viable cos it was a secondary act...not a primary.....

primary cheating is the act of cheating for sex's sake

secondary cheating is when reasons for going outside of the relationship are caused by issues since as serious abusive issues, such as still shy and her story....it is not intentional cheating.... and to me thats what I say

there is a difference.... hence I fully understand and support still shy...and I am not judging her for cheating....

now I put it to you tenni.... if I am so intolerant of cheating.... why am I supporting somebody and their reasoning for cheating...and why am I agreeing with mikey 3000 and a few of their points that are contrary to my * intolerant * attitude.....

the reason is simple.... as mikey 3000 said there is 360% points of view..... in order to fully view a situation, I have to look at it from all points....and thats what I am doing...... and thats why I may be anti cheating, but I am also supporting cheaters...... how norty of me to be tolerant and understanding.... cos that blows your statement of my intolerant crusade to hell....... and shows that I am actually learning and revaluating my view points......

[Annika L]

Annika L

I see that you still haven't got a clear answer on why it is ok to cheat. Now at the risk of being targeted again (yes, you know who you are!!!), I will try to answer.



Mikey,

Despite the name of the thread, I was never really asking why cheating is ok (that would have implied that I believed cheating was ok)...if you read my posts here, you'll see that what I wanted to know was why so many people here *believe* cheating is ok...perhaps a more appropriate name for the thread would have been "WHY do people think cheating is ok??" Might have saved us some rather judgmental posts. Oh well, live and learn.

Also, I did consider myself well-answered, and stated:


I think your response resonates well with Spartik's notion that "some people's lives aren't so straightforward." I feel that between the two of you (and bits and pieces from others), I can much better understand how 35-40% of people would say they think cheating is acceptable under some circumstances.

Basically, the scenario you paint reduces to "it's ok to cheat if you want to explore your sexuality, but fear a reaction from your current partner." I think that's been covered here already.

To everybody...this will be my last post to this thread. Again, I consider myself well-answered, and I very much appreciate those who supplied the insights I was seeking. Since people are so ready to misinterpret the point of this thread, I think we should let it die, and post our judgments and semantic squabbles to the 30 other threads here that deal with cheating.

At any rate, if people continue to post judgments to this thread, know that they do it without my blessing. But I'm done trying to moderate here. If Drew gave us the ability to close a thread we've opened, I'd close this one now.

[goldenfinger]

I think it fair enough to "cheat" or "pay back" on some one who has first cheated on you.It may lead to no good, but that is another story. There is some people that just do not deserve to be faitfull to. They are called "creeps". They put their own interest first, and then "cheat" their partner of their needs and wants. No need to try to talk to them, they wont listen. How long can you put up with that.Many timer, you don't find out till it's too late.
But the hardliners just don't want to see that. But we all know, that their day may come.