The Problem With Gender

[brutal_priestess]

Right so first thing's first, let me clear this up: I'm not stupid, I know that having a pussy makes me female and that boys have dicks. Now that I've got that pot-shot out of the way. let me just say that I am not completely adrogynous or transgendered. I do not reject my own gender however I do question the perpetual lines of gender that seperate male and female.

Even more so than racial or cultural segregation is gender segregation. Men and women are taught that they act and think differently from each other. Do we really or is it all socialization? And if it isn't why is this behaviour considered feminine or masculine? Why can't it it be seen as what it is: A character or personality trait indiginous to people and not "masculine" or "feminine"?

Then of course there is the dividing line in clothing. Give me one good reason that men should not wear skirts or dresses (other than the reason some women shouldn't either) and maybe then I'll shut up. Yet guys who do such things are considered "weird" or "girly". Why? And why is it that women are not considered too manly if they wear trousers? Women have gained the right to adrogyny, so why haven't men?

I'd be curious to hear what everyone thinks here. I'm quite a bit more used to being considered stupid, idealistic, or just plain odd for thinking this way.:rolleyes:

[Georgie_Girl]

I don't know if this is what you meant, but I often read something somewhere that states "This is how men feel about doing this" and that's how I feel about that particular thing. IE, it's generally assumed that men hate talking about feelings. I hate talking about feelings and all that emotional crap. I'd rather stab myself with a dull pencil that sit and talk about emotions. On the male side of things, I know a man who constantly talks about his feelings, and he's as straight as an arrow. I also know a guy who wears skirts on a regular basis. Also straight. So I think it's just societal crap and we're really not all that different, apart from the physical differences. Did any of that make sense?

[brutal_priestess]

Yes but I feel that I should point out that sexual orientation is just another perpetuation of stereotyping. You pointed out that both your "emotional" and "skirt-wearing" male friends are straight. Why? Because society has drilled into us that only gay men are more "feminine" and would act or dress in such a manner.

(not attacking you, btw. Just using your post as a further example).

[Georgie_Girl]

You pointed out that both your "emotional" and "skirt-wearing" male friends are straight. Why? Because society has drilled into us that only gay men are more "feminine" and would act or dress in such a manner.

Pretty much. =^.^= That and to show that there are exceptions to that stereotyping.

[brutal_priestess]

Right but isn't it interesting that when gay men are portrayed as masculine, it's usually in the excess as with the leather daddy or practically sexless as with the many "safe" gay male characters seen in television and movies (particularily American).

[cand86]

I tend to go back and forth, back and forth on how I see gender. On one hand, I've got that strong Gender and Women's Studies background screaming "Socialization!". On the other hand, I've read a shitload of trans memoirs, and I think hormones play a huge part in gender, gender identity, and gendered behavior.

Where does certain behavior originate? Is it in our hormones? And if it is, where does it end, and when does socialization begin and either reinforce it or undermine it? At what point do our proclamations on gender become self-fulfilling prophesies? What part does the media play in creating our expectations of what is normal and natural for men and women, and how we rise to those expectations?

I'm certain I don't have the answers, but I'm very hesitant to discount the role of hormones in gendered behavior, even while I *do* very much believe that we definitely end up ingraining the idea that they are universal absolutes. Absolutes just don't work. There's always a woman who breaks free from the constraints of the female gender role, and men who break free from the constraints of the male gender role. And that's not even taking into account how gender roles have changed and evolved and shifted over time- certainly testimony to how arbitrary they often are.

[Papelucho]

That's a really interesting question. How different are men and women? I think that people are different than many other animals because we store parts of who we are in our culture. Maybe men and women could be really similar to each other if society allowed that, but since we're such social creatures we need to have our identities reinforced by the general public in order for them to stick. We're not as individual as we'd like to think, people by nature use society to store parts of their identities.

[brutal_priestess]

On the other hand, I've read a shitload of trans memoirs, and I think hormones play a huge part in gender, gender identity, and gendered behavior.

Where does certain behavior originate? Is it in our hormones? And if it is, where does it end, and when does socialization begin and either reinforce it or undermine it? At what point do our proclamations on gender become self-fulfilling prophesies? What part does the media play in creating our expectations of what is normal and natural for men and women, and how we rise to those expectations?


I believe in hormones as well. I know when I'm pre-menstral that I get inordinately horny, emotional, and tend to eat more, even when I'm not really hungry. Yes, I'm aware that hormoones play a part. Testosterone makes men more agressive and women more...what? Weepy? Emotional? Nurturing? That's bit sticky, but I'll go for...cranky.

What I'm more speaking of is the more...subtle social programming we're all faced with.

[elian]

In the unitarian church I go to we studied a book called the gender knot - as a part of the class we split into groups and did an informal survey. What we found out is that women resented not having the perceived "independence" that men had in society. Men resented having to always appear to be in a position of strength and control.

What was clear to the participants is that pretty much everyone was unhappy with being labeled according to their typical roles in society, which led me to wonder "If everyone is unhappy, why not change?" but you know how several hundred years of geopolitical inertia and egoism impact society and culture.

The reason homophobes get so uptight is because (for example) they cannot perceive why a man would want to give up all that unearned power and privilege to "be a woman" - makes you wonder what some men think of women.

(http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Knot-Unraveling-Patriarchal-Legacy/dp/1566395194)

[brutal_priestess]

In the unitarian church I go to we studied a book called the gender knot - as a part of the class we split into groups and did an informal survey. What we found out is that women resented not having the perceived "independence" that men had in society. Men resented having to always appear to be in a position of strength and control.


*nods* That's exactly what a lot of male friends and lovers have confessed to me over the years. They resent the fact that they grew up being told to "be a man", "not to cry", and facing derision (or worse) if they acted or dressed a certain way.

And as a woman, it disturbs me that I still get scared when I'm walking in the dark because I know it's not safe for me...Not merely due to the inherent danger of living in society but because of my gender.

Yet it is hard to change. Even I find myself back-sliding into gender biased mind-sets despite how I strive not to do so. You can try to break the cycle as best you can but until there's actually change and not just bitching....

[izzfan]

brutal_priestess, I must congratulate you on choosing such a brilliant topic for discussing. I recently read a fascinating book called "Gender Outlaw" (by Kate Bornstein) which addresses a lot of issues about gender, transgender and binaries in general and I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested in this topic.



Then of course there is the dividing line in clothing. Give me one good reason that men should not wear skirts or dresses (other than the reason some women shouldn't either) and maybe then I'll shut up. Yet guys who do such things are considered "weird" or "girly". Why? And why is it that women are not considered too manly if they wear trousers? Women have gained the right to adrogyny, so why haven't men?
:

I have more than my fair share of opinions on the subject of gender and clothing (this probably has something to do with being transgendered/ a crossdresser/ kind of androgynous). I hate the fact that my choice of "socially acceptable" clothing is limited just because I have been born male. I think a lot of men are definately missing out because skirts and dresses can be some of the most comfortable and stylish clothes in the world. I'd love to live in a world where I could look as androgynous as I feel.

I suppose the reason why women can be as androgynous as they like (and quite rightfully so) is due to many decades of feminism and women who were brave enough to try out new styles (I'm sure that the first women to bob their hair and/or wear trousers probably suffered numerous comments and criticism). I wish there was something similar for men, but a lot of the "men's rights" groups I've found on the internet are nothing more than traditionalists who believe in returning gender relations to the 1950s (which would be pretty bad for both men and women).

Then again, things are marginally better than they used to be, guys can wear eyeliner without too many comments, the same goes for long hair and [black] nail varnish (two things I always have).

An interesting question (which raises more questions than answers) - What do you call the male equivalent of a "tomboy"?

The very fact that there isn't a single (non-judgemental and non-hateful) word for this says a lot about society.

[brutal_priestess]

brutal_priestess, I must congratulate you on choosing such a brilliant topic for discussing. I recently read a fascinating book called "Gender Outlaw" (by Kate Bornstein) which addresses a lot of issues about gender, transgender and binaries in general and I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested in this topic.

Thank you. Read a bit of it last year actually. While some of it was a bit too tran-centric, I found most of it fascinating.




An interesting question (which raises more questions than answers) - What do you call the male equivalent of a "tomboy"?

The very fact that there isn't a single (non-judgemental and non-hateful) word for this says a lot about society.

*thinks*
Well, I've got some contemplation tonight. I simply must think up a more positive term for your male equivolant of a "tomboy" considering all of the men I've dated were also cross-dressers.

[Laken]

Gender is based not only on socialization, but also in biology. There have been a few studies (some of which involving identical twins) where a child has been involved in some sort of accident, such as a botched circumcision...and the doctor thought it would be better to surgically create a vagina and have the parents raise the child as a girl. The child then goes on and eventually begins to feel that they aren't "right." Something about themselves feels "wrong." They, like many children with gender identity disorder, feel like they are trapped in the wrong body. Sadly, too many of these stories end up with the person killing themselves later on in their lives.

Society has "created" gender as another way to neatly label and organize things. The problem with that is, there isn't simply two genders. There are many many more. There are people who are born intersexed, a prime example right now being Caster Semenya. There are also those who are transgendered. What about those who are transexual, transvestite, etc...should they have thier own gender? Long ago, Native Americans had what they called a Berdache, a person who lived their lives as the opposite sex. Usually it was a male, but occasionally there were females as well. The did the "work" of the opposite gender and could marry whomever they chose, whether that person be male or female. I think society has regressed from this time where, obviously, it was recognized that gender couldn't fit into two categories only.

I would love to say that I will raise my son with a sense of neutrality...but the fact of the matter is that it's next to impossible. When he's at home, I hope he knows he has nothing to worry about. He can cry, he can play with dolls, make up, whatever he wants...but in society, these things will never be acceptable for a boy. Beyond a certain point, acceptance from peers becomes much more important and a much larger force in childrens lives.

[diget]

kinda funny, i think it is our society, though some people are just the way they are. to be more clear i have met men who lived with nothing but females literally half their life yet they are not even remotely feminine at all, i have also met guys who lived with nothing but men yet they cant dress what "society" call manly or masculine....they LOVE dresses and skirts. so i believe that the reason that people say there is more than just the physical differences between male's and females is because in main stream society people have been bred so that there is.


your friends are more open to things like skirts and seeming more "what society call feminine" while they can care less what society thinks. (more power to them;)), while other people just dont consider that their style.

i like seeming a little feminine even though i am male, though a dress just isnt my style.:tong:

[izzfan]

Brutal_Priestess, the tomboy point is an interesting one. Thinking about it, I suppose one equivelent would be "janegirl" (I'm sure I've heard that somewhere) but I don't think it quite has the same ring to it. It is a difficult question and, upon reflection, I'm sure there probably is a word out there to describe it but the real issue is why such a word is not widely used (in the same way "tomboy" is).

"Gender Outlaw" is definately a fascinating book. While I do not consider myself to be transsexual, I found her points about shamanism and changing sex to be fascinating (viewing the operation as a shamanic experience related to death and rebirth). The most intriguing point about Kate Bornstein is that she no longer considers herself to be either "male" or "female" but as something entirely different (a gender outlaw). Apologies if I've accidentally misquoted any section of her book but its been a few weeks since I read it.

Laken, you've certainly got a point about there being multiple genders. It is certainly fascinating that a lot of other cultures throughout history and in the present day were (and are) perfectly fine about transgender and intersex people and did not try to exclude them. Compare this to a lot of "modern" monotheistic (a religion with only one god) soceities which often exclude and condemn anyone who does not conform to their rigid rules of gender.

I agree it is impossible to fit something like gender into neat categories, just like it is impossible to neatly label peoples' sexuality or beliefs (political, moral, spiritual etc..). I can attest to this because I don't really feel truly comfortable when I try or have to be, completely "masculine" for any extended period of time. Likewise, I would probably feel a bit uncomfortable if I had to be completely "feminine" for an extended period of time.

Digit, I wish I had the confidence that some of your friends have and that I could disregard all the various social nonsense about gender. The problem is that many cross-dressers and more andrgoynous men tend to stay in the closet or downplay this aspect of themselves (for numerous reasons such as prejudice, self-loathing and fears about how coming out could affect their relationships and jobs etc..). Of course, there are some exceptions such as the excellent comedian Eddie Izzard (one of the first people who inspired me to have confidence about the fact that I'm a crossdresser), then of course there is David Bowie, Grayson Perry etc... there are proudly androgynous men out there but only a few of them are well-recognised.

[diamond_tether]

The reason crossing the line is a problem, is because it's the minority. Plain and simple. Most people feel they identify along typical gender lines, so those who don't will be questioned. If we move to sociological constructs and in-group/out-group mechanics - people who cross those lines are 'different'. Different puts the person exhibiting this 'abnormal' behavior firmly into the out-group and large scale acceptance of the out-group is always thought to result in a massive loss of social stability and organization.

One of the things we can do as the minority who accept these alternative states, is to simply promote and provide safe-space for one another. By continually blurring the lines, accepting the blurring and encouraging others to as well, we can make it clear that 'other' genders aren't dangerous or scary and are perfectly acceptable. Which, encourages integration/assimilation. The feminist movement had to teach society that women were not weak, simple or second-class; the minority movement had to do the same thing. I feel that the natural course in this case would just be longer-term and more casually paced version of those two initiatives.

[brutal_priestess]

Yes but creating all the safe spaces in the world only isolates us. For all the civil rights movements we're still hopelessly oppressed in ways, both small and large. We've become a complacent society. While it might seem silly to some to pump fists against the vulgar lines of gender, that's exactly what's stopping social progress in this day and age. We all lay down so easily, and while I'm no exception (much as it shames me to admit to it), I must confess that I get sick of it more often than not.

[mrplayfuluk]

I agree with you Princess but I think the problem is generational. When younger generations grow old enough to be in positions of power worldwide then change will come which is why we see liberalization in every form from racial stereotyping to chauvinism in the work place. We take for granted the legalization of homosexuality, civil rights, equal pay etc but these things only really came in the last 75 years and there is plenty more to come in the next... we just have to believe it will happen. In the way that the Green Movement will overturn Iranian Theocracy will the knowledge that 60% of Iranians are under 30 and their whole premise is a belief in change. Its also been noted that the women's movements in Iran are feared by the authorities there.

[_Joe_]

oi my head hurts with all this insightful discussion we haven't seen in awhile.

Interesting book suggestions next time I hit the book store.

[brutal_priestess]

I agree with you Princess but I think the problem is generational.


Sorry to nit-pick, but it's actually "priestess". *coughs* "Brutal_Princess" sounds like the screen name for a Star Wars fanfic writer that pens Palpatine/Vader slash.

Yes, I suppose it could be generational. My generation has always been terribly uppity and idealistic, perhaps because we percieve that we missed all the great civil rights unrest from the sixties and seventies.

[mrplayfuluk]

oops sorry it was early here in the UK, Priestess...

I am as keen for change as you are and remember, every younger generation is uppety then grows more despondent with the delays in progress... and gets distracted by mortgages, kids or careers and forgets why they were excitable in the first place.....:(

[brutal_priestess]

oops sorry it was early here in the UK, Priestess...

I am as keen for change as you are and remember, every younger generation is uppety then grows more despondent with the delays in progress... and gets distracted by mortgages, kids or careers and forgets why they were excitable in the first place.....:(

Yep, and that's pretty sad that breeding and money always takes precedence to one's ideals. While I've nothing against making something of yourself or breeding (okay, maybe I'm not such a big fan of people making more people, but that's neither here nor there), but why should that side-track you from what you believe?



...Yeah, I'm fully aware that I've opened myself up to attack since I'm currently in school and childless.

[MarieDelta]

Meh gender!

I am a transexual(M to F), and I've actively studiedand learned about gender in the last four to five years. Anwhile I dont "reject" my gender - that is I recognize and undeerstand that I have a cock. It siimply does not find my minds perception of myself.

Some books you all might find interesting-

As Nature Made Him (http://www.amazon.com/As-Nature-Made-Him-Raised/dp/0060929596/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253649629&sr=1-1)

Self Made Man (http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253649722&sr=1-1)

My Husband Betty (http://www.amazon.com/My-Husband-Betty-Love-Crossdresser/dp/1560255153/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253649776&sr=1-1)

She's Not The Man I Married (http://www.amazon.com/Shes-Not-Man-Married-Transgender/dp/1580051936/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253649776&sr=1-2)

True Selves (http://www.amazon.com/True-Selves-Understanding-Transsexualism-Professionals/dp/0787967025/ref=pd_sim_b_3)

She's Not There (http://www.amazon.com/Shes-Not-There-Life-Genders/dp/0767914295/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b)

Whipping Girl (http://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl-Transsexual-Scapegoating-Femininity/dp/1580051545/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253649954&sr=1-1)


Now as I said I have come to the conclusion that gender is biological. However I will say that Gender Expresion is cultural. These two things are not related.

You can have men that are very femmine and women that are very masculine, that does not make them transexuals. However when you have someone whose gender identity is female or male and their biological sex is female or male it does make them transexual.

Basically there are four spectrum:

Gender Identity - The internal Identity of someone. Being Male or female mentally.

Gender expression - Being Butch or femme. Tomboy or sissy.

Sexual Identity - Gay, straight, Bi, pan or omni- sexual. Who you want to go to bed with.

Sexual Expresion - Who you do go to bed with.

Yes, it is very complicated. If a pre-op transwoman goes to bed with a pre-op transwoman are they gay? If she goes to bed with a man , is she straight or gay or?

Which is why for the most part I identify as Pansexual. I dont fall in love with the body, but the person themselves.

[brutal_priestess]

You can have men that are very femmine and women that are very masculine, that does not make them transexuals. However when you have someone whose gender identity is female or male and their biological sex is female or male it does make them transexual.

Basically there are four spectrum:

Gender Identity - The internal Identity of someone. Being Male or female mentally.

Gender expression - Being Butch or femme. Tomboy or sissy.

Sexual Identity - Gay, straight, Bi, pan or omni- sexual. Who you want to go to bed with.

Sexual Expresion - Who you do go to bed with.

Yes, it is very complicated. If a pre-op transwoman goes to bed with a pre-op transwoman are they gay? If she goes to bed with a man , is she straight or gay or?



*headdesk*

While I appreciate your contribution, my brief period of gender confusion (I was identifying as a gay man) is what jaded me more than any heterocentric rhetoric. Many trans-identified peers were horrified that I didn't want to take hormones or undergo re-assignment surgery. Idealistic as I'm sure you've figured out that I am, I was under the firm belief that people should just accept my word (or whatever, I was very confused). While I am not against hormone therapy or surgery for others it didn't feel right for me. Being ever-so-slightly Pagan, I didn't believe I had any right to change my body despite what I felt emotionally. As for hormones, that has always freaked me out. I don't even take the Pill and have opted to used condoms ever since I've become sexually active.

Anyway, my point is, quite frankly, fuck gender. All gender laws, not just the ones imposed by heterosexuality. I'm not a girl, I'm not a boy, I'm not butch or femme, I just am.

[MarieDelta]

*headdesk*

While I appreciate your contribution, my brief period of gender confusion (I was identifying as a gay man) is what jaded me more than any heterocentric rhetoric. Many trans-identified peers were horrified that I didn't want to take hormones or undergo re-assignment surgery. Idealistic as I'm sure you've figured out that I am, I was under the firm belief that people should just accept my word (or whatever, I was very confused). While I am not against hormone therapy or surgery for others it didn't feel right for me. Being ever-so-slightly Pagan, I didn't believe I had any right to change my body despite what I felt emotionally. As for hormones, that has always freaked me out. I don't even take the Pill and have opted to used condoms ever since I've become sexually active.

Anyway, my point is, quite frankly, fuck gender. All gender laws, not just the ones imposed by heterosexuality. I'm not a girl, I'm not a boy, I'm not butch or femme, I just am.

Certainly your right to Identify yourself as you see fit. Also your right to undergo (or not) medical procedures.

Up to you to be who you are, in all your glory. It isnt up to the rest of us to do this work.


“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”


Sorry if my input on this topic frustrated you, that wasnt my intention.

[brutal_priestess]

:rolleyes:

I'm not trying to be a bitch. Look, I guess I really just don't get it, but I'm not looking for someone to clarify anything for me. I'm just here to provoke some thoughts into this forum.

For the record, I no longer identify as a gay man. I'm very much female and enjoy all the pleasures this body. Thing was, at the time, I was in a really bad relationship, having a mental breakdown, and my self-esteem was at an all-time low. It created this...perfect storm, I suppose.