Religous and Bi?

[diget]

i know that i may be a bit of a rarity. i am probably one of the only bisexual Jehovah's witnesses you'll ever hear of. i was just wondering how has religion played a part in your life.
yes i am a JW, i go out in the door to door ministry every Saturday but obviously dont follow some of their teachings. please dont judge. :(

[dodartist]

Please do not beat yourself up over this issue. Although I am not a Christian, my spirituality is a very important aspect of my life, and it helps to sustain me during many difficult periods. Equally important to me is having a strong moral character. "Walking the straight and narrow" does not neccessarily guarantee either. One can find in any religion, a true path to enlightenment or a rigid dogma. My experience in life tells me (and I only speak for myself here) those who follow a dogma seek an easy answer instead of a true path. Always remember that your sexuality is only one facet of the diamond that you are, and as you define yourself, others will see the same definition.
I wish you good fortune in your struggle to understand the complexities of life, and can only pass on this tenet of my personal faith.. "Do as you will in this world, but harm no one; including yourself."

[FalconAngel]

Amongst us Wiccans and, at least the vast majority of Pagans, sexuality is never an issue.
We have no doctrine about sexuality one way or the other, since it is all part of nature and this is a nature religion.
Any homophobia usually does not last long in our religion. Either the homophobic leaves (of their own accord) or adapts to a more tolerant attitude.

[TaylorMade]

i know that i may be a bit of a rarity. i am probably one of the only bisexual Jehovah's witnesses you'll ever hear of. i was just wondering how has religion played a part in your life.
yes i am a JW, i go out in the door to door ministry every Saturday but obviously dont follow some of their teachings. please dont judge. :(

I wouldn't.

I know what you're going through. I'm not a JW, but I know how the loneliness and spiritual torment can feel.

*Taylor*

[Lenore]

I don't subscribe to any one religion. I just try to be a good person. That whole do unto others thing.

The little sticker I have hanging on my refrigerator kind of sums it all up....

"My Religion is very simple. My religion is kindness, a good mind, a good heart, warm feelings - These are the most important things."

[FinkDoodle]

Forgive my stupidity, but what the hell does religion have to do with sex?

[FalconAngel]

Forgive my stupidity, but what the hell does religion have to do with sex?

Ask a right wing Christian or right wing Muslim.

[diget]

try being a JW, i could be dissociated if i tell any one in the kingdom hall that i became bi while i am still a JW.
religeon has played a huge part in the lives of all those who may be attracted to the same sex. many have been persecuted and even KILLED in times past.:(
thank god people are more understanding today:bigrin:

[diget]

sorry for the quote above i cant figure out how to quote a post. i clicked quote below my post but still couldn't figure out how to do it.

[TaylorMade]

try being a JW, i could be dissociated if i tell any one in the kingdom hall that i became bi while i am still a JW.
religeon has played a huge part in the lives of all those who may be attracted to the same sex. many have been persecuted and even KILLED in times past.:(
thank god people are more understanding today:bigrin:

I can understand that totally. In some schools of Christianity, some have simply stopped trying to explain the how or why. I admit I'm still trying to find it and the truth about it, but it's been a rough ride.

I guess with many forms of Mainline Protestantism it simply varies from church to church, even within the denomination.

Do you think you would willingly walk away from the JW's for another church or find another group? (I know the LDS has one for gay people, they aren't really affiliated with the LDS, they simply gather socially for a sense of community)

*Taylor*

[MelissaMaven]

Yeah I don't think religion and bisexuality/homosexuality are mutually exclusive at all. There are countless things in the bible which many of the even more hardcore of religious people openly dismiss as being irrelevant in this day and age. Especially from Leviticus, for example.

I don't go to church myself though. Partially due to my views of existence not exactly following the bible as many would believe it to be, since I refuse to ignore science. But it's also due to some negative personal experiences. I mean, you'd think being honest with a reverend when asked about your life would be the right way to go, but you'd be wrong!

But that's just me. I'm still all for "to each his own." Until there are thought police, then people can think what they want.

[eddy10]

This thread has reminded me of the many reasons I have slowly become agnostic. And, very much against the vast majority of institutionalized churches.

[Delilah]

Oooh you said all that and very truthful at that!
Do as you will and harm no one is something I live by.
I never discredit anyone's belief and always respect it.
:)




Please do not beat yourself up over this issue. Although I am not a Christian, my spirituality is a very important aspect of my life, and it helps to sustain me during many difficult periods. Equally important to me is having a strong moral character. "Walking the straight and narrow" does not neccessarily guarantee either. One can find in any religion, a true path to enlightenment or a rigid dogma. My experience in life tells me (and I only speak for myself here) those who follow a dogma seek an easy answer instead of a true path. Always remember that your sexuality is only one facet of the diamond that you are, and as you define yourself, others will see the same definition.
I wish you good fortune in your struggle to understand the complexities of life, and can only pass on this tenet of my personal faith.. "Do as you will in this world, but harm no one; including yourself."

[MetaSexual2]

Diget, for your own sake you should to try to get away from the JWs ASAP. Religion aside, they are an extremely parasitic and destructive organisation. Please take a hard look at what is going on in your KH and decide if your elders live up to their own values. I know once they get their hooks in its hard to get out, especially if you have other family members involved, so be careful. Best of luck and keep questioning.

[M. Wolfe]

I'm not a mainstream Catholic because I support Euthanasia in some cases.

Wow that's quite a statement. The moral mess around killing can be a tricky thing to face for some. Despite "Thou shalt not kill." there are situations where it needs to be done in the case of self defence, protecting others and with mercy killing or Euthanasia. When I went to church, I took your position and found it to be a very very unpopular one.

[Devin]

Not that he is supposedly bisexual, but is not famous musician formerly known as Prince also a Jehovah’s Witness? He used to be a gender-bending artist. In addition, I believe the Jackson family used to be Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I am a sort of practising buddhist and a Christian agnostic. I was brought up in a non-religious home though. However, I (need to) believe in something spiritually higher than mankind - either as a supreme being or a system, or both. For me, my faith has saved my life.

[littlerayofsunshine]

I watched big brother and they had a gay man named Kevin that was JW and had been excommunicated from the church and his family didn't have anything to do with him. I don't know anything really about JW, cept they come to my house once a month when the new Watchtower comes out and they don't celebrate their birthdays.


My family wasn't religious, I was sent to church on my own as a child, either riding with strangers from the church on spend an hour on the bus. I identified as baptist when I was young, but after being raped at age 6 and on, the scriptures/preachers taught verse that I was going to hell cause I wasn't a virgin anymore. Children were supposed to be innocent, but I couldn't be. It was stolen.. God/jesus loved loved everyone, but no one....I questioned god and church from early on, cause I was not given "protection" that was supposedly promise. I searched for a church home from age 6 till I was 20. I have been to baptist, Pentecostal, catholic, churches of christ, churches of nazerene, LDS, Agape, and prolly some others I can't think of at the moment. And at no church was there any place for me. I would hear scripture spit forth saying it meant one thing for this "lesson" and then repeated and twisted to represent something else in another lesson. So I have little faith in the men that teach and preach cause they are as flawed as I am.

Do I still question god.... Yes.... but I live my life in such a way, I am a giving concerned and empathetic person. I help the strange and the poor, the weary and the torn, the asses and the wholes I give cause it makes me feel good in my heart. So in the end, I think god or whatever, will see that even though my faith was tattered, my soul was always in the right place.


I wish you luck in your journey/discovery for/and of yourself.

[Wolf_Sr]

Always remember that your sexuality is only one facet of the diamond that you are, and as you define yourself, others will see the same definition.

Wise advice... it is sad that religious dogma do delay spiritual development and obscure the path to enlightenment...

[Realist]

I think, Littleray, that the truth is within us, not from outside sources. Whenever MAN has his hands on anything, he usually screws it up.

I've known some wonderful, giving, loving people who you could depend on to do the right thing, no matter what. Some were religious and some were not. Both were equally as decent as the next person. I see no difference between a good non-religious and a good religious person.

When anyone gets too much power, like some TV evangelists, preachers in huge churches, for example, it corrupts them. Just as those with differing kinds of power, some are benevolent and some are monsters.

I applaud you for being the person you are, regardless of the pain you've suffered.

[Falke]

I don't think I could add much except this...

diget, you rule dude. Best of luck to you!

[AdamKadmon43]

i know that i may be a bit of a rarity. i am probably one of the only bisexual Jehovah's witnesses you'll ever hear of. i was just wondering how has religion played a part in your life.
yes i am a JW, i go out in the door to door ministry every Saturday but obviously dont follow some of their teachings. please dont judge. :(

Even though I don't understand it, I none-the-less admire and respect your ability to maintain your beliefs vis-a-vis the fact that the vast majority of your fellow practicioners would most probably consider you a perverted sinner and an abomination in the eyes of god.

I had the misfortune of being born and raised in a hard shell southern baptist environment, and, at a very young age, I became very angry and bitter towards christianity (and religion in general) for their attitude toward me and treatment of me because of my sexuality (amoung other things). I eventually rejected their hateful, mean, and self-contradictory god completely.

Unfortunately, I have never been able to rid myself of that anger and bitterness, but even if I could it would not change my core beliefs. Religion is not a static institution. It is a social dynamic that changes, sometimes dramatically, with a changing society. To the point that I do not see how it can ever provide us with any degree of certainty about the nature of Absolute Truth and Ultimate Reality. But perhaps I just miss a bigger picture.

I never liked the fatalism of atheism, and I have finally found some degree of spiritualism in the ideas of Pantheism. Other than the belief that all of life and nature is scared and should be treated with dignity and respect and never intentionally harmed, Pantheism makes no sorts of moral judgements of any kind.

In any event, good luck to you and I hope things continue to work well for you. But I suspect they are going to work well only until such time as you get caught.

Adam


I am reluctant to post this because (1.) My general attacks on religion sometimes result in specific attacks on me, and (2.) There is a strong possibility that it will cause the thread to be hijacked by someone to use as a launching platform for her personal vendetta against me.

But here goes anyhow.......

[Realist]

Adam, as one who was also raised Southern Baptist, I've long felt the same. I never agreed with the dogma of any Christian, Muslim, or Jewish religions; none of them suited my spiritual needs. Plus, they preach too much hate. Each one is trying to convince you that no one's getting to heaven but them!

One person/leader, that I have respect for, is the Dali Lama and his teachings. I respect him and the things he believes in more than anything else I've heard. Still, I don't feel strongly enough about it to be a part of it.

I believe in being a good person, considerate of others, honest, and doing what's right. The 10 commandments are not a bad guide to live by, no matter who authored them. Without some rules there'd be anarchy, But other than that, I more or less go my own way, mind my own business, and be a friend to a few who are a friend to me.

[elian]

It was painful to hear the congregation of my parents and friends preach that "God loves everybody" but yet whisper under their breath "except THOSE people". I never really had a problem with the teachings of Jesus as he taught compassion, love and understanding - but I started to seek out hearing from individual people what their spiritual belief means to them. Figuring that i might find wisdom in the experience I've seen through their eyes.

Later when I grew up, I wanted to get involved, I sought out a faith community and I became a unitarian universalist. At the time it was the most "disorganized" organized religion I could find and it has been a good framework for promoting community support. All of the records of the church were open to public scrutiny and whatever we decided was decided by a consensus vote of the congregation - seemed like something I could live with.

A curious thing happened recently, our congregation learned a church, a combination of UCC and Methodist denominations that helped out tremendously in a low income section of the city - was going to have to shut the doors.
Unitarians preach a lot of social action, and we needed a bigger meeting space anyway so we purchased the building, still allow them to worship 5 out of 6 Sundays (with one service per month being ours) and we are now partnering with the UCC and Methodist congregations to try and provide additional community programs.

It has been a stressful, but also rewarding endeavor - I am grateful for a community that faithfully celebrates the potential of every person to grow in understanding, love, compassion and hope.

Curiously there was also an article in our denominational publication about a Pentecostal Minister who was about as successful as you can get in that ministry who no longer believes in Hell

Article here:

http://www.uuworld.org/life/articles/145503.shtml (http://www.uuworld.org/life/articles/145503.shtml)

Quoting (minister's words, not mine):

"Watching a news report one night in the spring of 1996, he was getting worked up about the genocide in Rwanda. His assumption was that the victims were bound for hell, persecuted yet unsaved. Feeling angry at God, and guilty that he himself wasn’t doing anything about it, he recalls, he fell into a sort of reproachful prayer: “God, I don’t know how you can sit on your throne there in heaven and let those poor people drop to the ground hungry, heartbroken, and lost, and just randomly suck them into hell.”

He heard God answer, “We’re not sucking those dear people into hell. Can’t you see they’re already there—in the hell you have created for them and continue to create for yourselves and others all over the planet? We redeemed and reconciled all of humanity at Calvary.”

NPR Audio Podcast about same topic here:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=304
(http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=304)
Sorry to ramble on, but the idea of people of many diverse spiritual paths learning to work together to promote compassion and understanding instead of egoism is something that puts a smile on an old soul's face.

As far as bi goes - it just sort of proves to me that you can show love to people regardless of their physical characteristics.

-E

[FalconAngel]

The biggest issues with monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam and all of their various sects) is that most confuse Dogma with core belief.

Dogma is everything that has been added to the core by people that claim that it must be followed to be a good follower.

This is why the only Dogma within Paganism and Wicca, is that you can add to it, but you may not take away from it's core. Dogma takes away from the core in monotheism, because it changes with each religious leader and his personal flaws.

Dogma is also what creates so many sects that insist that theirs is the only right way and it causes so much hate in the world.

As Ghandi said "I like your Christ, but it is your Christians that I am frightened of".

No religion is, at it's core, bad. However, when you have enough centuries of hate-filled or paranoid dogma infused into it (usually for the purpose of control), there is bound to be trouble for everyone.

[diget]

i have seen the hate and i have seen the pain. what i decided to find why people hated and caused pain then it hit me and pain was all i could see after wards.
most humans are not like others, they are bred to hate. not just by teaching but also by blood. the idea that i could remain a loving person became more than an idea after that. it became my life, therefore i needed to find love and peace amongst others like me. i chose to live by not hurting others and spreading as much good from my own findings as i could to combat those who are bread to hate.
maybe, "by a christian stand point" if people are confused i found about their faith if they simply do as much good in their life as possible god will see that and except them no matter who they are.

[MetaSexual2]

Falcon - the way you have stated it, "core belief" is semantically equivalent to dogma. Any belief without underlying support is irrational. The closing of the mind and the rejection of the world as it exists, at its core, bad.

Diget - Just keep doing good, loving others, and learning. Do as you would have your god do.

[FalconAngel]

Falcon - the way you have stated it, "core belief" is semantically equivalent to dogma. Any belief without underlying support is irrational. The closing of the mind and the rejection of the world as it exists, at its core, bad.


Actually, no.

Dogma is what is added afterward. Core belief is what the religion is based on; an all seeing, knowing, loving, god - a series of gods - no gods - etc. Core belief is what started the belief system.
For example. Monotheism is based on the belief that a single deity created everything and everything came about from that. That everything works the way it does based on that deity's will. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the current religions that follow that, but the Egyptians tried it, about 6 thousand years ago, but it fell short for them and the Phaeroeh that tried to institute it was almost completely removed from their history. In Monotheism, you pray to the single deity and hope that they affect your world the way that you want.

Polytheism is based similarly, but with the belief that the universe is far too big for a single deity to control everything, so the running of the universe is controlled by a different god/goddess for each different thing in the universe. In polytheism, the prayer system is similar, but instead of praying to a solitary god for everything, you pray to the specific god who's dominion covers the specific subject of your prayers (God of health, wealth, war, justice, etc.)

Wicca or Paganism, like Shamanism, is based in a similar belief to polytheism, except that the Gods are naught more than descriptives for the seasonal changes of the world. The Gods give us each the ability to manipulate the world around us through the direction and control of the loose energy that flows through all things (the Force, to simplify it). However, in Pagan/Wiccan/Shaman practices, we do not use practices that do not yield results. It is very much like science in that respect. If it doesn't work, we don't do it. Like science, it is a principle of practice. We cast a spell to achieve a certain goal. If it doesn't work, then we try something different.

All of those are examples of core belief.

Dogma can be seen in the statements of radical Christians, radical Muslims and radical Jews.

Dogma is all of the things that are added, over time, in order to give control of the follower's lives to said religion's leadership.

For instance: Christianity teaches one to "love thy neighbor as thyself", but it is Dogma that modifies it to exclude those "types" of people that the church leadership decides are unworthy of the aforementioned love. The WBC is a perfect example of Dogma ruling a religion/religious sect.

Principle is what the religion is based on while Dogma is all of the garbage that others have added to make it more acceptable to their own personal prejudices.

[FalconAngel]

Diget-Keep in mind you can be gay/bi/Trans/lesbian and still be Christian and even be devout.

Keep in mind that even people who are Wiccan/Pagan can be full of dogma, close mindedness, and full of core beliefs. ;)


I assume that because you singled out my religion, which is shared by many people on this site (one Pagan path or another), you are taking a jab at a belief system which is not dogmatic (and can demonstrate it), as well as trying to be insulting to all of us.

That is patently uncalled for.
It also demonstrates a lack of understanding of religion, in general, the differences between different types of religions and religious beliefs, with a particular jab made at Pagan beliefs specifically.

It is neither funny nor cute to insult someone's belief system when you have no clue about it.

I talk about Christianity from the stance of having been raised in the religion, like many, so I am familiar with it and am not speaking from a lack of empirical knowledge or experience.

However, to be honest, there are some that are "dogmatic" about their Paganism. But that does not make the religion "dogmatic".

As a matter of fact; if you really want to see Dogma in action, just pick up a KJV Bible and compare it to any other version. Then compare those to the original writings in older copies of the New testament from the Catholic church (which is the original church that all of the Protestant sects sprang from - just as science and religion both sprang from ancient Shamanism).
You will see how Dogma has ruled each sect and added to problems that would not be problems but for the added dogma.

[MetaSexual2]

Falcon, I'm simply trying to get you to critically examine your own belief structure. From a purely semantic viewpoint, nearly all of the last reply to me was dogma. It doesn't matter what structure the religion (or any other belief structure) takes, those beliefs which can not be supported by evidence from the world around us, are dogma. It seems like you are just using a personal definition of the word. How is "core belief", in the way you've used it above, different from how dogma is defined in the dictionary?

I suspect I probably know a bit more history of religion than you think I do. I would suggest Roy Rappaport's, Jung's, and Joseph Campbell's popular books as an entry point for understanding structures of religious thought. They are all sympathetic to the idea that religion needs to be a continuing narrative in the modern world, but also critically examine earlier structures.

Also, trial and error without a critical evidence process is not science. It is however pre-science, and I fully acknowledge the debt the modern world has to alchemists, shamans, etc. in laying the groundwork. When the shit hits the fan though and you really need to figure something out, you want to be using the scientific process, not its primitive forebears.

[FalconAngel]

Falcon, I'm simply trying to get you to critically examine your own belief structure. From a purely semantic viewpoint, nearly all of the last reply to me was dogma. It doesn't matter what structure the religion (or any other belief structure) takes, those beliefs which can not be supported by evidence from the world around us, are dogma. It seems like you are just using a personal definition of the word. How is "core belief", in the way you've used it above, different from how dogma is defined in the dictionary?

I suspect I probably know a bit more history of religion than you think I do. I would suggest Roy Rappaport's, Jung's, and Joseph Campbell's popular books as an entry point for understanding structures of religious thought. They are all sympathetic to the idea that religion needs to be a continuing narrative in the modern world, but also critically examine earlier structures.

Also, trial and error without a critical evidence process is not science. It is however pre-science, and I fully acknowledge the debt the modern world has to alchemists, shamans, etc. in laying the groundwork. When the shit hits the fan though and you really need to figure something out, you want to be using the scientific process, not its primitive forebears.

Which definition of dogma are you specifically using?

dog⋅ma
  /ˈdɔgmə, ˈdɒg-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
Use dogma in a Sentence
See web results for dogma
See images of dogma
–noun, plural -mas, -ma⋅ta  /-mətə/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.
Origin:
1590–1600; < L < Gk, equiv. to dok(e&#238;n) to seem, think, seem good + -ma n. suffix

I am referencing the more commonly used definitions #2 and #3, which overlap a bit in what they mean.

Maybe that is the problem.....we are approaching under two different meanings and understandings of the word.

Now, as far as scientific process, it is simple. If it works, consistently, with the same results, then it works. If it doesn't work consistently, then it does not work. That is very scientific. I throw a ball in the air, and if it fails to come down, even once, I have disproven gravity and if I will the ball to rise from my hand, without throwing it, and it does it every time, I have demonstrated telekinesis (or done a really nice little bit of illusion); Scientific method.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that in magical practices we use various herbs, plants, etc. in things like medicinal potions or potions to flush garbage from our systems, poisons, cures for poisons and a wide variety of other medicinal uses, that was all originally developed by Shamans back before recorded history (early scientific method); the birth of both religion and science.

As far as a religion needing to be a continuing narrative in the modern world, then under that definition, Monotheism falls rather short, being as the vast majority of modern monotheistic religions are quite factually stuck in the dark ages, ignoring scientific method and advancement, to the point of attempting to bypass, or even outlaw, science in favor of religious dogma. As proof of that, take a look at the following items:

Creationism/Intelligent Design

Prejudice, by the "church" against different sexual preferences as being unnatural when science has demonstrated that it occurs in nature all the time

All disregard for scientific fact that even remotely appears to contradict dogmatic beliefs.

Those things are not in keeping with a continuing narrative. They stick with teaching and keeping parable as rote fact, which it is not.

Religion is something that gives linear and physical perspective to the things that we ask about and was used as such before scientific method was established and even since it was understood.

Scientific method shows us how the universe came about, but not why. Why is where religion is supposed to come in. Yet that method is disregarded, near violently, by many in the monotheistic religions.

It is nothing more than an explanation for simple minds and a symbolic use for those that understand the science.

Amongst Pagans and Wiccans, you will find a great number of PhD's, MBA's and other high degrees. These people are far from stupid and, like me, understand that the worship of the gods is symbolic of the natural cycles of the universe and of the living things within that universe.

As a species, we find it difficult to understand the phrase "all time is now" because we live in a linear timeline in the physical world, but the energies and spirits of living things do not. Science has already begun demonstrating the existence of these energies that are part of all things.

Because we, as a species, need a solid foothold for understanding that which we have yet to grasp, we place things within the "purview of the gods" in order to understand on an individual basis, for those that do not yet grasp things in more complex and scientific terms.

This is also why Wicca is more akin to science as well. We do not teach dogma; we teach everyone to explore and examine and draw conclusions from their own experience working their religious path. You cannot advance when all you learn is dogma and do not question things. Nor can any religion advance or keep up with social and scientific clarifications of our world if it only teaches dogma and dismisses the scientific advancements around it without examining them with a critical and unbiased eye.
This is why, in Pagan and Wiccan beliefs, the Great Rite (fertility ritual) is done in a symbolic manner (in most cases) rather than as it was originally done.
It is why we stopped doing the Burning Man (yes, the name is from an ancient Pagan ritual) ritual sacrifice (which included a willing human volunteer along with the samples from the previous harvest and animals) more than 400 years ago. We understood that the symbology and the focused energy around the symbology is what mattered, not the actual sacrifice.

Changing with the times is what makes a religion continue and stay fresh. Understanding of what is behind it's core beliefs is critical, but just learning dogmatic rules is nothing more than indoctrination, not support of belief.

That is one of the reason that I don't attack all monotheists. There are many that have ignored the dogma in favor of the core beliefs; the lessons, if you will. It isn't the Bible that says "love thy neighbor as thyself, unless they fall outside of the prescribed groups", it is dogma that says that, not the core beliefs.

Is that a clearer explanation for you? I will be glad to take this off forum with you if you need further discussion or clarification.

[AdamKadmon43]

WOOOOOO HOOOOO.... And I thought I was bad !!!

I love it....:)

[missus_stewartATyaho]

Oh, I understand completely. I am probably the only bisexual Seventh-Day Adventist you'll ever meet. They know, and still love me, though they pray heartily, lol! Most cultures throughout all of history have been bisexual. It's human nature (yes, yes, I am a big Freudian supporter, sue me). I taught Sabbath School for 3 years, and have been very active in church since I've been a Christian (10 years) before that, I was Wiccan. I was very happy in that belief until I learned more. It's a great starting point, and teaches much about love and sisterhood and community, etc. I have no regrets. I have tried, and failed, to MAKE myself what my Christian peers think I should be. It isn't worth the discouragement, in my case. I beat myself up about it for over a year... I had to accept that I simply cannot be perfect, but keep striving in the areas I CAN make improvements in. Thank God, we won't get there by anything we've done or not done, but have to cling to His grace for our every breath, that's all I can say. Even if I were straight, that would still be true. I wouldn't be more or less of a sinner than I am now. I try, because I am grateful for His sacrifice. I fail, because I am human. Every Christian must face this truth every day. I find comfort in the fact that I love my neighbors. Like, A LOT of my neighbors ;)) !! God bless you, sweetie. He doesn't love you more or less than if you were straight.

[TheBisexualProfessor]

Oh, yes! I can't reveal much, but I'm what most would consider a religious "expert" and leader -- so I understand entirely!

Johnny

[AdamKadmon43]

Oh, yes! I can't reveal much, but I'm what most would consider a religious "expert" and leader -- so I understand entirely!

Johnny

What is a "Religious expert" ??????

[the sacred night]

i know that i may be a bit of a rarity. i am probably one of the only bisexual Jehovah's witnesses you'll ever hear of. i was just wondering how has religion played a part in your life.
yes i am a JW, i go out in the door to door ministry every Saturday but obviously dont follow some of their teachings. please dont judge. :(

I know a gay guy who was raised JW, but he disfellowshipped himself. I followed a somewhat similar road, raised Southern Baptist and became an atheist at 16, although in my case it wasn't because of my sexuality. I didn't even realize I was bi yet at the time. If you are interested in bisexual spirituality, I'd recommend the book Blessed Bi Spirit by Debra R. Kolodny. It is an anthology of essays by bisexuals about their spirituality, and delves into multiple religions, although some more so than others.

[TaylorMade]

Oh, I understand completely. I am probably the only bisexual Seventh-Day Adventist you'll ever meet. They know, and still love me, though they pray heartily, lol! Most cultures throughout all of history have been bisexual. It's human nature (yes, yes, I am a big Freudian supporter, sue me). I taught Sabbath School for 3 years, and have been very active in church since I've been a Christian (10 years) before that, I was Wiccan. I was very happy in that belief until I learned more. It's a great starting point, and teaches much about love and sisterhood and community, etc. I have no regrets. I have tried, and failed, to MAKE myself what my Christian peers think I should be. It isn't worth the discouragement, in my case. I beat myself up about it for over a year... I had to accept that I simply cannot be perfect, but keep striving in the areas I CAN make improvements in. Thank God, we won't get there by anything we've done or not done, but have to cling to His grace for our every breath, that's all I can say. Even if I were straight, that would still be true. I wouldn't be more or less of a sinner than I am now. I try, because I am grateful for His sacrifice. I fail, because I am human. Every Christian must face this truth every day. I find comfort in the fact that I love my neighbors. Like, A LOT of my neighbors ;)) !! God bless you, sweetie. He doesn't love you more or less than if you were straight.

PREACH IT, HONEY!!

<waves handkerchief at computer and does that silly dance in the aisles>

*Taylor*

[SaraSaurus]

I'm not sure I can add anything here that hasn't been said before but I just wanted to say that it is possible to be both Christian and bi. I realize there are a lot of denominations that have lots their way and forgotten the message of love Christ taught us but there are lots of denominations and churches that are very welcoming to queers. I go to such a church and am also a member of an online community that's specifically geared towards queer christian women.

So, while there are a lot of 'christians' out there spreading hate there's also many spreading love. Also, for the earlier post that talked about trying to be perfect to fit in with Christians... I think something the church continually forgets is no one is perfect and to expect that from ourselves or others is delusional. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. :2cents:

[JP1986UM]

To the original subject, I find myself in recent months in conflict with what I was raised to believe. Many weeks of reading and questioning led me to hear this one statement made by our polish parish priest my wife and I heard together at daily mass some time ago (yes I go 3-4 times a week, not just on Sundays):

"Every time I go out I see people honking their horns and being upset all the time. People are so angry. Where there is anger, love has been shoved out. So go out and try and love more. That is the gospel message."

He was right. That is the gospel message. Christ's sacrifice notwithstanding, Jesus of Nazareth hung out with the wretched refuse that the legalists refused to acknowledge. The pharisee who stood at the wall extolling his virtue while the poor man prayed humbly for God's mercy and forgiveness. Who was more justified? It's obvious.

Christ's message is as true then as it is now to me. I don't need to wave some frickin bi-flag :flag3: to extol who I am. Its no one else business. If having a SSA is wrong, then so is eating shell fish, having sex with a female on her period, walking around without a covering on one's head. Those are rules man concocted out of fear. God never asked for half the Levitican law.

[FalconAngel]

Wicca/Paganism pretty poor excuse for teenage rebellion. Mostly populated by fat men and women women who like to read and write poetry. These 'wiccans' or 'pagans' pretend they're witches/warlocks and go to Renaissance Festivals to buy all the cheap smelling incense to burn when they hang out with their other fat friends, who also read and write poetry. All of them pretend to be English Intellectuals and want to write poetry or fantasy novels for a living, despite being horribly inept and writing drivel of the highest degree.

For the most part, these women and men are extremely defensive of their beliefs, claiming that they're following the oldest belief there is, when in fact they're trying to justify their behavior so that they can get out of going to Church every Sunday or just so they seem cool.

If these people were actual witches or warlocks, they'd do cool shit like turn people into giant spiders that attack people, or shoot out bolts of fire to burn down villages, or flying.

Unfortunately, they say they like holistic magic involving their Goddess or God, which is one of the more useless wastes of their time. These types don't move on to an afterlife or reincarnate, making their belief system a large moot point.

Don't be a Wiccan or Pagan.


New-Age religion/priesthood formed by Gerald Gardner, and English civil servant, around the 1950s, possibly the 1940s. The theology and practices were already established in the '40s, but the name Wicca was not applied until Gardner's publications in the '50s. Wicca is a mix of paganism based on theories of ancient practices (namely Celtic traditions), nature worship, and ceremonial magic. Masonry is also believed to play a part in Wicca. Influences on the creation of Wicca are Dr. Margret Murray (debunked theorist), Aliester Crowley, the Golden Dawn and the O.T.O. Traditional Wicca is more about the preisthood, and requires initiation from a liniaged coven and involves several "mysteries" that are only supposed to be learned in three degrees through a coven. While Wicca certainly promotes the belief in magic, it doesn't require the practice of it. The religion/priesthood has as much credibility as, say, Christianity and NAtive American Shamanism.

2. Neo-Wicca. Any form of Wicca that deviates from the liniage of Gardner's Wicca and the traditions that grew from them. Neo-Wicca focus more on the religious aspect of Wicca and does not require initiation and can be practiced solitary. Though the pracitioners of Neo-Wicca tend to be more ecclectic, there are traditions of Neo-Wicca, and practitioners still have to follow the core tenants of Wicca to be defined as such, namely the worship of a God and Goddess, adherance to the Wiccan Rede, belief in the Threefold Law/Law of Return, etc. Neo-Wicca is no less credible than Traditional Wicca.

3. Supposed ancient religion that lived "underground" society until "Old Dorthy" initiated Gerald Gardner, who later "exposed" the tradition by publishing his books. Whether or not that Old Dorthy existed is unknown, and even if this ancient path existed, it is not the Wicca that Gardner published.

Contrary to popular belief, wicca is not the oldest religion. Wicca came about roughly, around the 1950s.


Okay, little troll, since you seem to have confused all of the facts, here, I will clarify it for you, since you haven't studied enough to be expert on any tradition of which you are not a part and not initiated into.

Neo-Wicca is what was started after the 1950's, after Gardner published his book "Witchcraft Today", in 1954, and others started publishing works, mostly crap, back then, which began the new Pagan movement. Neo Wicca is not in any way, shape or form, based on Gardner's works, since all but one book is an anthropological study of Pagan practices and not books about the practices of Wicca, specifically. His book "The Meaning of Witchcraft" delves only a little into general Wiccan practices, yet focuses on the Craft itself and examines the Craft for what it is.

Gardner, himself, along with others (Alex Sanders, Stewart and Janet Farrar, et al) all came from the New Forest Covens, which were survivors from the dark ages, operating secretly for hundreds of years and mostly familial in function.
From those coven grew the British Traditional Wicca groups, Via Gardner, Sanders, etc., and so they are actually NOT neo-Wicca, as their roots are in the covens that survived what is called "the burning times.

[FalconAngel]

Again, you need more study.

You need to read my words very carefully.

What you think that you know about Wicca is nothing but bullshit. You are expecting folks, like me to get all indignant and throw a fit. Not going to happen, my little troll.

Wicca is all about personal responsibility. being accountable for what you say and what you do. A lesson that you have yet to learn.

For instance; I was having a discussion with another and they were invited to discuss the issue in private and you were NOT invited, so your smarmy little bullshit e-mail was uncalled for.

I belong to the Craft of the Wise, not the craft of the pacifists, not the craft of the fluffy bunnies, either. You are not yet ready to recognize the nature of nature, or you would understand some things that you clearly do not.

I expect that from a troll, since the biggest hypocrites on the web are trolls.

<<gets can of Troll-B-Gone with deet>>

Come back to this when you are worthy and no longer trollish.




Wicca is based off ancient traditions, but it is not ancient itself. Anyone who tells you otherwise is an idiot.
Wiccans are pagans and practice witchcraft.
Wicca is plagued with people, mostly stupid teenagers, who try and unrightfully claim the title of Wiccan. These people usually will argue endlessly with people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about, and are known as fluffy bunnies.

You should go read some Gerald Gardner. He made the freakin' religion, and only he can say what goes

Wicca or Paganism is a convenient religion created by people who want to feel like they're powerful (through spells) but also don't want to have to be pinned down to any particular belief.

There's no set definition of Wicca or Paganism, so people are free to make up their own religion as they see fit. It's the ultimate "religion" of convenience, if you can even call it a religion.

If you do a little research, you'll find that most of what is "Wiccan" or "Pagan" is made up out of thin air by individuals and groups. It's some kind of strange group delusion. Couple that with the fact that the supposed "spells" don't work, you can see how delusional it really is.

Next time you see a Wiccan, tell them to prove they can cast spells. Prepare to be disappointed.

A religious movement invented circa 1954 by Gerald Gardner who fraudulently claimed it was an ancient witch cult which honours nature, it is in fact based on Freemasonry.

Wicca or Paganism is now a worldwide movement, its rituals are non-descript, often made up on the spot and frequently bastardising religions and/or Gods from other cultures and/or parts of history.

Wicca also possesses a heavy left winguncurrent, the adherents of the religion tend to be marxist or at least socialist even if they are unaware of what left wing political ideals actually are.

Wicca/Paganism: pretending to be an ancient religion since 1954

A fact hotly denied by Wiccans is the fact that Wicca seems to have originally been intended as a European branch of Thelema, the religeon of Aleister Crowley. Indeed, Gardner's original works include large chunks cribbed from Crowley, but these were later removed in order to distance the Craft from the Antichrist.

[y3s2u]

I have to say that I am a christian. I do attend a baptist church and yes, being bi is known as a sin in my church.

HOWEVER, IT IS NOT WHAT YOU DO OR DON'T DO. IT IS WHO YOU KNOW. AND BY THAT I MEAN HAVING A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST.

THE BIBLE SAYS IN ROMANS 10:9 IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD THEN YOU SHALL BE SAVED

As a baptist, my belief is once saved always saved. Even King David, who is known in the bible as a man after God's own heart, committed adultery and murder. Now I know that as a JW, you do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or rather that Jesus was more of a profit. But I am here to tell you fear not!! Read the bible, find out for yourself. Do not take my word for it even, or any preachers, parents. God intends for you to search for Him.

And as far as the comments that have been written about looking at your elders, while it is true that we should be able to look to them as examples, they too are human. I know my preacher sins and has shortcomings and he doesn't mind admitting to them as an example to help others. See Romans 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And also Romans 5:8 God commends His love for us, in that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

Just don't give up on God. Man will always let you down, but God is faithful and if you are genuine in seeking Him, He will never leave your side.

[y3s2u]

Oh, I understand completely. I am probably the only bisexual Seventh-Day Adventist you'll ever meet. They know, and still love me, though they pray heartily, lol! Most cultures throughout all of history have been bisexual. It's human nature (yes, yes, I am a big Freudian supporter, sue me). I taught Sabbath School for 3 years, and have been very active in church since I've been a Christian (10 years) before that, I was Wiccan. I was very happy in that belief until I learned more. It's a great starting point, and teaches much about love and sisterhood and community, etc. I have no regrets. I have tried, and failed, to MAKE myself what my Christian peers think I should be. It isn't worth the discouragement, in my case. I beat myself up about it for over a year... I had to accept that I simply cannot be perfect, but keep striving in the areas I CAN make improvements in. Thank God, we won't get there by anything we've done or not done, but have to cling to His grace for our every breath, that's all I can say. Even if I were straight, that would still be true. I wouldn't be more or less of a sinner than I am now. I try, because I am grateful for His sacrifice. I fail, because I am human. Every Christian must face this truth every day. I find comfort in the fact that I love my neighbors. Like, A LOT of my neighbors ;)) !! God bless you, sweetie. He doesn't love you more or less than if you were straight.

You are so right and it just reminds me of one more verse. The bible says in Ephesians 2:8 By grace(God's grace) you are saved through faith, and not of yourselves: It is the gift of God

And no, I am not some "crazy Jesus freak" or any other name you could come up with, I JUST LOVE THE LORD.

[FalconAngel]

As I have said before, it is those that follow the core beliefs of the religion that are not the problem, the problem is all of the ones that follow the added dogma, the hate and intolerance rhetoric that are the problem.

No religion is wrong or bad, but it is the leaders that make it good or bad. The WBC is the most noticeable example of a leader making a religion bad; or at least making it look bad.

[AdamKadmon43]

And no, I am not some "crazy Jesus freak" or any other name you could come up with, I JUST LOVE THE LORD.


Same thing.

[FalconAngel]

Too true Adam.

Pagans and Wiccans can be just as bad as Christians are as we've seen in this thread.

True.
We have a few whackos amongst us, too. Between the wannabe's that know only what they read from bad authors to the nuts that think that the mysteries should be given to them without them doing the real work and study, we have them all.

No religion is free from it, thus all of the trouble between religions. But the most dangerous and destructive are the recent converts that are not tempered by reason.

[AdamKadmon43]

True.
We have a few whackos amongst us, too. Between the wannabe's that know only what they read from bad authors to the nuts that think that the mysteries should be given to them without them doing the real work and study, we have them all.

No religion is free from it, thus all of the trouble between religions. But the most dangerous and destructive are the recent converts that are not tempered by reason.

It sometimes seems as though nearly every belief system, whether it be religious or political or socialogical or whatever, tends to develope a subset of extremists.

And unfortunately many people (myself included) tend to judge them on the actions or viewpoints of the extremes. If we don't like something because it is alien to us, we can point out how detrimental it can be by pointing out the lunacy of it's extremists.

I don't know how you get around that.

[FalconAngel]

It sometimes seems as though nearly every belief system, whether it be religious or political or socialogical or whatever, tends to develope a subset of extremists.

And unfortunately many people (myself included) tend to judge them on the actions or viewpoints of the extremes. If we don't like something because it is alien to us, we can point out how detrimental it can be by pointing out the lunacy of it's extremists.

I don't know how you get around that.

Sometimes, there is no way around it.

However, it does allow people to examine their beliefs when they compare themselves to the extremists and see the way that people tend to treat the extremists.

Examination of one's beliefs is no bad thing, either. It allows us to flex our intellectual muscle on ourselves and forces us closer to reason; unless we are the extremists, then it just solidifies and justifies our belief to us. Up side and down side. All things come as a double edged sword, just like nature.

[BLCHGK777]

I haven't been to church (I go to a Baptist church which is a form of Christianity) in a while due to the fact that the last time I was there they were talking about the great sins and the condemning of these supposed "ultimate" sinners (My church tends to do this a lot why I don't know but it weirds me out!) and that day including the condemnations of homosexuals (Read word after word from the King James Bible :kay:)... I was so scared they had a gaydar behind the pulpit and they were going to find me then burn me alive! :eek:

[handlebar]

I'm a JW as well and can totally relate to the OP.

Granted it is tough. But then most religious organizations are going to have issues with certain lifestyles.

I do take issue with the idea that the JW's are a destructive organization,etc.
Anyone can believe what they want and that's fine. But we all have our own opinions and all beliefs have their sticking points. Sexuality is one almost ALL have a stance on. Take aside certain things and the faith is fine.
No "religion" is going to be just perfect for everyone,otherwise we would all be of the same faith,no?

So diget should do his own research and heart searching for what he really wants. It is do-able to be a JW and bisexual as long as one does it the right way.

[Captainnasty1st]

i know that i may be a bit of a rarity. i am probably one of the only bisexual Jehovah's witnesses you'll ever hear of. i was just wondering how has religion played a part in your life.
yes i am a JW, i go out in the door to door ministry every Saturday but obviously dont follow some of their teachings. please dont judge. :(

Sex and sexual orientation, should not in any way be influenced by religion, but they are..!!! As a veteran of three wars, all over control, power, religion, and oil, I think that all organized religions are self-serving, and basically bad..!!! I believe that all people have a right to think for themselves, and organization, whether religious or otherwise should influence that..!!! I feel the same way about sexual orientation, it nobody's business but your own..!!!

Remember the golden rule: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you..!!!

[rissababynta]

I am one of those people who wholeheartedly believe that you can not help who you are attracted to or who you love. I also believe that you can not help which religion, if any, you feel most comfortable in or have fait in. Therefore, I've never seen why the two would butt heads so much.

In either case, I've never had to worry about it much because I am pagan and like Falcon said, we don't really have any "rules" against sexuality.

[Karasel]

Wow, I never met a bisexual JW before. I know some about the religion, and all the JWs I've met before are pretty strict. Some of them I know don't celebrate birthdays, and stuff.

I'm Agnostic, so I never had problems with my orientation effecting my religion.

But it's all a matter of what you believe as a person, I think, and not depend on what the vast majority of your peers in whatever religion you practice say.

[handlebar]

Wow, I never met a bisexual JW before. I know some about the religion, and all the JWs I've met before are pretty strict. Some of them I know don't celebrate birthdays, and stuff.

I'm Agnostic, so I never had problems with my orientation effecting my religion.

But it's all a matter of what you believe as a person, I think, and not depend on what the vast majority of your peers in whatever religion you practice say.

There are more of us than you think. That includes gay and lesbian. But it is not spoken of nor brought out in the open for all to see. That seems to be the same for a LOT of religions where coming out is frowned upon. So JW's don't corner the market there at all.
Then again, airing whom you sleep with is a purely personal and private matter and I don't need to know what a person's sexual orientation is to like or dislike them. It simply does not matter. That is their business.
When it comes to religion, everyone answers to their Creator in the end (if they believe in one) and so it is a personal matter.

[Captainnasty1st]

i know that i may be a bit of a rarity. i am probably one of the only bisexual Jehovah's witnesses you'll ever hear of. i was just wondering how has religion played a part in your life.
yes i am a JW, i go out in the door to door ministry every Saturday but obviously dont follow some of their teachings. please dont judge. :(


I'm not judging, but, you are a man, so why have pic of a gorgeous babe, as you main pic..??? Does JW promote lying, regardless of your orientation..???

[Captainnasty1st]

Which definition of dogma are you specifically using?

dog⋅ma
  /ˈdɔgmə, ˈdɒg-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
Use dogma in a Sentence
See web results for dogma
See images of dogma
–noun, plural -mas, -ma⋅ta  /-mətə/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.
Origin:
1590–1600; < L < Gk, equiv. to dok(e&#238;n) to seem, think, seem good + -ma n. suffix

I am referencing the more commonly used definitions #2 and #3, which overlap a bit in what they mean.

Maybe that is the problem.....we are approaching under two different meanings and understandings of the word.

Now, as far as scientific process, it is simple. If it works, consistently, with the same results, then it works. If it doesn't work consistently, then it does not work. That is very scientific. I throw a ball in the air, and if it fails to come down, even once, I have disproven gravity and if I will the ball to rise from my hand, without throwing it, and it does it every time, I have demonstrated telekinesis (or done a really nice little bit of illusion); Scientific method.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that in magical practices we use various herbs, plants, etc. in things like medicinal potions or potions to flush garbage from our systems, poisons, cures for poisons and a wide variety of other medicinal uses, that was all originally developed by Shamans back before recorded history (early scientific method); the birth of both religion and science.

As far as a religion needing to be a continuing narrative in the modern world, then under that definition, Monotheism falls rather short, being as the vast majority of modern monotheistic religions are quite factually stuck in the dark ages, ignoring scientific method and advancement, to the point of attempting to bypass, or even outlaw, science in favor of religious dogma. As proof of that, take a look at the following items:

Creationism/Intelligent Design

Prejudice, by the "church" against different sexual preferences as being unnatural when science has demonstrated that it occurs in nature all the time

All disregard for scientific fact that even remotely appears to contradict dogmatic beliefs.

Those things are not in keeping with a continuing narrative. They stick with teaching and keeping parable as rote fact, which it is not.

Religion is something that gives linear and physical perspective to the things that we ask about and was used as such before scientific method was established and even since it was understood.

Scientific method shows us how the universe came about, but not why. Why is where religion is supposed to come in. Yet that method is disregarded, near violently, by many in the monotheistic religions.

It is nothing more than an explanation for simple minds and a symbolic use for those that understand the science.

Amongst Pagans and Wiccans, you will find a great number of PhD's, MBA's and other high degrees. These people are far from stupid and, like me, understand that the worship of the gods is symbolic of the natural cycles of the universe and of the living things within that universe.

As a species, we find it difficult to understand the phrase "all time is now" because we live in a linear timeline in the physical world, but the energies and spirits of living things do not. Science has already begun demonstrating the existence of these energies that are part of all things.

Because we, as a species, need a solid foothold for understanding that which we have yet to grasp, we place things within the "purview of the gods" in order to understand on an individual basis, for those that do not yet grasp things in more complex and scientific terms.

This is also why Wicca is more akin to science as well. We do not teach dogma; we teach everyone to explore and examine and draw conclusions from their own experience working their religious path. You cannot advance when all you learn is dogma and do not question things. Nor can any religion advance or keep up with social and scientific clarifications of our world if it only teaches dogma and dismisses the scientific advancements around it without examining them with a critical and unbiased eye.
This is why, in Pagan and Wiccan beliefs, the Great Rite (fertility ritual) is done in a symbolic manner (in most cases) rather than as it was originally done.
It is why we stopped doing the Burning Man (yes, the name is from an ancient Pagan ritual) ritual sacrifice (which included a willing human volunteer along with the samples from the previous harvest and animals) more than 400 years ago. We understood that the symbology and the focused energy around the symbology is what mattered, not the actual sacrifice.

Changing with the times is what makes a religion continue and stay fresh. Understanding of what is behind it's core beliefs is critical, but just learning dogmatic rules is nothing more than indoctrination, not support of belief.

That is one of the reason that I don't attack all monotheists. There are many that have ignored the dogma in favor of the core beliefs; the lessons, if you will. It isn't the Bible that says "love thy neighbor as thyself, unless they fall outside of the prescribed groups", it is dogma that says that, not the core beliefs.

Is that a clearer explanation for you? I will be glad to take this off forum with you if you need further discussion or clarification.

I may be wrong, but I seriously think you are promoting your agenda, thats how wars are started..!!!

[handlebar]

I'm not judging, but, you are a man, so why have pic of a gorgeous babe, as you main pic..??? Does JW promote lying, regardless of your orientation..???

That was an odd question. He likes women and men so he wants to show such.

JW's don't promote lying any more than other religions. Where did you come up with that?? People of all walks of life and religions are in the closet.

[Captainnasty1st]

That was an odd question. He likes women and men so he wants to show such.

JW's don't promote lying any more than other religions. Where did you come up with that?? People of all walks of life and religions are in the closet.

You didn't show such, you showed a fantasy woman..??? When I first saw the post, I thought you were a female, until I checked your profile.!! You are using deception to attract attention to yourself...!!! Show a pic of you (face pic) and a beautiful woman/man, or don't post anything..!!! It makes me question everything about you..???

[handlebar]

You didn't show such, you showed a fantasy woman..??? When I first saw the post, I thought you were a female, until I checked your profile.!! You are using deception to attract attention to yourself...!!! Show a pic of you (face pic) and a beautiful woman/man, or don't post anything..!!! It makes me question everything about you..???

Seems you question a lot in life. How sad. You must hate everyone if they don't follow you. How narrow minded and insecure is that.

[Captainnasty1st]

Seems you question a lot in life. How sad. You must hate everyone if they don't follow you. How narrow minded and insecure is that.

I don't promote a false impression, but it seems as though you do..??? Why did you choose to post pics, of beautiful women, instead of yourself..??? And you question my honesty....LMAO

[handlebar]

I don't promote a false impression, but it seems as though you do..??? Why did you choose to post pics, of beautiful women, instead of yourself..??? And you question my honesty....LMAO

What planet are you on? My photo is of a man with a moustache.
You must think I'm the original poster to this thread.

No false impressions here. I'm VERY secure in my psyche.

Make sure you are in the right forum.

[darkeyes]

That was an odd question. He likes women and men so he wants to show such.

JW's don't promote lying any more than other religions. Where did you come up with that?? People of all walks of life and religions are in the closet.

Far be it for me 2 knock another person's belief in a God or gods.. but to me such belief is a lie in any case begun by powerful people to keep the rest in check. It has been perpetuated by powerful people ever since for just the same reason.

I am not criticising you for your belief or anyone else for theirs, for you have the right to believe what you do and that is fine with me. However, my belief that all religion is a lie is buried deep within me and if there are times when I show scant respect for religion it is not because of I have no respect for the beliefs of others, but because I hold all religion in utter contempt for being what I believe it is.... a lie, in various shapes and forms, not intended for the good of humanity as a whole, but for the benefit of a relative few.

Much that we endure as Lesbian,Gay and Bi people is due to the edicts of religious institutions and leaders. Especially within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions which are the religions which are relevant to most of us. Through their edicts we are made to feel inadequate, dirty, sinful and less than human. All for a natural human condition which is perfectly normal and which because of the religious beliefs they push down our throats, they expect us to reject as much of straight religious society has rejected it.. I am not sorry for what I think in fact I glory in it. Just as those of you who are religious I defend to the death your right to believe as you do and the right to free speech, I ask nothing but the same privilege for myself and others like me. Sadly, much of the religious community believe that I have no right to express my opinions as I have found out more than once in my little life.

This is a little off topic, but not entirely so. To any who is gay, or bi or trans and is religious I say i feel for you. such confusion and contradiction you must feel. But you are not wrong and should feel no shame. It is others who sin in this matter.

[handlebar]

Far be it for me 2 knock another person's belief in a God or gods.. but to me such belief is a lie in any case begun by powerful people to keep the rest in check. It has been perpetuated by powerful people ever since for just the same reason.

I am not criticising you for your belief or anyone else for theirs, for you have the right to believe what you do and that is fine with me. However, my belief that all religion is a lie is buried deep within me and if there are times when I show scant respect for religion it is not because of I have no respect for the beliefs of others, but because I hold all religion in utter contempt for being what I believe it is.... a lie, in various shapes and forms, not intended for the good of humanity as a whole, but for the benefit of a relative few.

Much that we endure as Lesbian,Gay and Bi people is due to the edicts of religious institutions and leaders. Especially within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions which are the religions which are relevant to most of us. Through their edicts we are made to feel inadequate, dirty, sinful and less than human. All for a natural human condition which is perfectly normal and which because of the religious beliefs they push down our throats, they expect us to reject as much of straight religious society has rejected it.. I am not sorry for what I think in fact I glory in it. Just as those of you who are religious I defend to the death your right to believe as you do and the right to free speech, I ask nothing but the same privilege for myself and others like me. Sadly, much of the religious community believe that I have no right to express my opinions as I have found out more than once in my little life.

This is a little of topic, but not entirely so. To any who is gay, or bi or trans and is religious I say i feel for you. such confusion and contradiction you must feel. But you are not wrong and should feel no shame. It is others who sin in this matter

Well said. Each of us have our own thoughts and spirituality,whether religious or other.

[Captainnasty1st]

What planet are you on? My photo is of a man with a moustache.
You must think I'm the original poster to this thread.

No false impressions here. I'm VERY secure in my psyche.

Make sure you are in the right forum.

I apologize, IT was not you that I disagreed with, it was the original poster..!! I think you are are an honorable, and truthful man, and I respect your beliefs...!!!

[handlebar]

I apologize, IT was not you that I disagreed with, it was the original poster..!! I think you are are an honorable, and truthful man, and I respect your beliefs...!!!


I figured you did and knew it must have been a mix up.
All is good. Thanks for the reply.

[qiangqiang]

I don't believe in religion. I just want to be an ordinary bisexual here (https://acmejoy.com/). Besides, I don’t think there is a conflict between religion and bisexuality. There are countless things in the Bible, and in this day and age, many even more stubborn religious people openly consider it irrelevant