Culture or subculture?

[BeautifullyBi]

PLEASE LEAVE FEEDBACK! I am interested in each of your thoughts and opinions on this next question...

Are we (as bisexual, gay and lesbian individuals) a culture, several cultures or are we several subcultures? If we are a culture, under what broad title are we classified?

This is the definiton of culture:

- the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education

-the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations

- the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time

- the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization

- the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic

This is the definition of subculture:

- an ethnic, regional, economic, or social group exhibiting characteristic patterns of behavior sufficient to distinguish it from others within an embracing culture or society

[Realist]

With such varied interests, compulsions, desires and dreams, I can't think of how you could classify bisexuals!

We are so diversified that it may be mind-boggling, especially to anyone from the outside, to determine what category we fit into. Every bisexual person may have a different concept that would confuse things even more!

I know that my interests and desires seem to be alien to most other bisexuals and, other than saying I'm bisexual, how would I fit into a general classification?

I'm afraid that your question is too complex for me to ponder!

[12voltman59]

Probably one of the reasons that to those who sit at both extremes of heterosexuality and "gaydom"---bisexuality is non-existent--is that we are not some clearly identifiable group with any sort of "culture"--I for one would not want to be in some sort of cultural "ghetto" as a bisexual-----while my bisexuality is something important to me---it is but a small part of the other things I find important--I more closely identify myself as being an artist, writer or something of that nature than my sexuality----my sexuality is just one more piece in the jig-saw puzzle that is my existence---I don't care to be identified by it.

[BiDanielle]

Sounds too much like a math question for us.:female::male::flag2:

[eddy10]

You made my head hurt with that one.

[chicagom]

I believe our sexuality is just one part of our lives, the part that brings us here because of our preference in partners or our curiosity about it. For those of us that know who we are, this site brings us together for something that the rest of the world (friends,relatives, co-workers, etc.) need know nothing about. When we meet people in the "real world", we don't say "Hi.I'm Joe, I'm a Republican" or any of a number of other things that describe who we are or what we believe. These things get found out as we get to know each other and share ourselves. We come to this site solely on our sexual preference or curiosity of same. We don't have to hem and haw or beat around the bush. Sexuality is a subject that is discussed, generally rather quickly upon meeting here, because it's the reason we came here in the first place. We may never meet or get too close, even here, because of differences in personality, age, geography,lack of initiative or any of other various reasons. However, this part of our lives is now something we need not hide here. THIS is the subculture.....this site. Some of us may live in places where local bisexually-minded people meet, just like any other group (sports fans, politically minded people, single parents etc.) But for a lot of us, this is not something we care to share with the world in general, partially because, if known, it would be the only way people see us. No one is gonna tell a friend "There goes Joe, he's a Republican".

Was this too long?

[Realist]

You wrote: "Where I am from being gay or bisexual is seen as something more for people from the United States or people from foreign countries."

That pretty well covers everyone, doesn't it? ............except your country!

[brutal_priestess]

There is no bisexual culture. I suppose I'd sound too bitter if I said that it was because gay culture would rather sweep us under the rug and forget we exist. Really though, I can't tell you how many have tried to say that bisexuals are just confused or that only women are truly bisexual (men are just greedy?). :rolleyes:

I guess the kinder answer is that bisexuality means so very much to other people. It's not always just about fucking guy or girl, whtever takes your fancy. Sometimes the area is a lot greyer and more mysterious. How to build a solid culture on that?

[Bisexual Explorer]

All,

The only thing we have in common is that we are bisexual. That's not enough to make us a culture or a subculture. If one shared characteristic were enough to define a culture or a subculture, we would have a left-handed person subculture, a very tall person subculture, a very short person subculture, a bald person culture, a tall, bald, left-handed person subsub culture, etc. Besides, I don't care whether bisexuality is a culture or a subculture because I can't see that a label makes any difference.

g

[12voltman59]

Good posts and well put observations and comments both GSP and BrutalPriestess--I could not agree more with you guys.

[fuborks]

There's no bisexual culture since there's no culture to be spoken of generally when it comes to bisexuality or any *sexuality* for that matter in Western society-just a bunch of horny fornicating freaks trading money-shots.

Any semblance of genuine bi/transgenderal culturalism of North America worth note died with its indigenous peoples.

[AdamKadmon43]

Native American peoples were not all correct or did not somehow know things that we in the 21st century do not know.

I am not exactly sure how this thread got into a discussion of native American peoples, but, in any event, I think that you are right. Long before Europeans got to these shores, native Americans were beginning, for the most part, to show the classic symptoms of a culture that was dead-ended and headed towards extinction. Their lives were governed almost totally by fear and superstition. I won't go into specific examples of all that. Suffice it to say that their technological advances were over-shadowed by their spititualism. (the sacred rock... the sacred tree.... the sacred mountain... even though we know how to do so, we cannot build a dam here to collect water because it might offend some sacred deity, so we must move on when the water supply runs out...) A situation which seems to be the exact opposite of where we are today. We seem to have lost control over our technology.... It supercedes everything.

It trouble me to say this since my maternal grandmother was half Cherokee Indian, and this is most certainly not meant to justify their mistreatment. It is just that sometimes the realities of life (or how what we perceive to be those realities) are not always what we would ideally visualize them to be.

Adam

[12voltman59]

Native American peoples were not all correct or did not somehow know things that we in the 21st century do not know.

In some native American tribes' cultures and societies what we'd now call being gay/bisexual/Transgendered was sort of accepted but in other tribes you would be highly ostracized or even put to death for being something other than heterosexual or your born gender.



Actually--disapproval of homosexuality in Native American "tribes" was the exception rather than the rule--in most of the native peoples-they were highly accepting of homosexuality--at least male homosexuality.

http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-customs/native-american-homosexuality/two-spirit-native-american-gay.html

http://ne2ss.typepad.com/northeast_twospirit_socie/2006/08/homosexuality_a.html

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/Politics_Sociology/Becoming_Two-Spirit_Gay_Identity_and_Social_Acceptance_in_India .html

http://members.tripod.com/berdache_two/twospirit.htm

Better acceptance of homosexuality in those cultures than our western/european based one!!!

[AdamKadmon43]

"Actually--disapproval of homosexuality in Native American "tribes" was the exception rather than the rule--in most of the native peoples-they were highly accepting of homosexuality--at least male homosexuality."


I'll just bet that one could come up with all sorts of links to sites that would prove otherwise.... One of the interesting things about the internet is that you can use it to prove or disprove just about anything you want to.

[fuborks]

This of course was not my point, since the question is one of culture-not sexuality; and that where the point is missed-and will probably continue to be when it comes to indigenous societies, as in *ours* gender of one kind or other carries no cultural relevance with respect of social moors or ethic, spirituality or community.It is the opposite of the Native American example;Sexual habits, regardless whether one thinks them right or wrong have culture attached to or structured around them,and are not integral consequences of natural\social relationships within, or part of the culture in question-Its just all about fucking for the most part, sex and sex and more sex.

[codybear3]

Keep it going... The Dineh are highly entertained at this time...:paw::paw:

[fuborks]

Their lives were governed almost totally by fear and superstition. I won't go into specific examples of all that. Suffice it to say that their technological advances were over-shadowed by their spititualism. (the sacred rock... the sacred tree.... the sacred mountain... even though we know how to do so, we cannot build a dam here to collect water because it might offend some sacred deity, so we must move on when the water supply runs out...)

A very narrow and stereotypical (among other things I don't care to suggest) view-As if our decidely more civilized and practical society is not governed by enough "fear and superstition" (religon, politics, advertising, sin, hell, terrorism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, feminism, patriarchy, monarchy, anarchy).

But still no less (actually far less) backward as we've become accustomed to thinking and being ourselves-At least they were in no hurry to blow themselves up & knew the correct uses of pottery and horses...

[MetaSexual2]

As has been so clearly pointed out above, there really isn't a bi-culture as such. It might be interesting to ask what we would want it to look like if we had our druthers and such a thing did exist. For myself, I know that when I was most actively bi, both physically and in terms of community was I when I was at university.

I was lucky to have known a small group of incredible people who all identified as bisexual. They were bright, quick-witted, open minded, into art, sci-fi, etc. - I think they are the reason I keep being drawn back to bisexual communities even though I haven't found anything like them again. Right time, right place in the universe I suppose.

Hmm, so what are the keystones for bi-identity? Androgyny, fluidity of gender roles, barrier breaking. Bowie always comes to mind for me as one possible model. You need exemplars and stories to build a culture on - what are ours?

[fuborks]

Despite what some Native American tribes once falsely thought being bi/gay/trans does not mean that you have special powers, are magical, or are somehow more evolved or a better person than someone who has a fixed static gender and who is heterosexual.

Things were not magically somehow better for Native people who we'd call bi/gay/trans during pre-colonial times.

Like Adam wrote most Native cultures and societies were on their way out and headed towards their own self destruction.

Just look at the Aztec, Maya, Anasazi, and the Pueblo. They had cities that were completely abanonded for no reason at all. They also practiced human sacrifice, Cannibalism, and they did not have equality within their tribes and cultures.
Tribes were frequently at war with one another too.

What's the "correct" use of pottery and horses? There is no such thing.

In today's society things have gotten a lot better for GLBT people. Laws have been passed and we are seen as normal people just like heterosexuals are. I'm thankful that we GLBT people are not seen as special since we are not and we're just regular people like everyone else is.

Is it a bad thing that we use sexual orientation as an identity?

I'll begin from the bottom up, first as I am not so sure what I've said has been read in the right direction at all, but rather in reverse. Not sexual orientation, but SEX-that is the act itself being the defining reason in this society for the orientation to exist, where there is no consideration of cultural relavance at all, but rather the "culture" is defined by the proliferation of habit and behavior, which has nothing at all to do with identity.

I don't agree things have not gotten much better more than they've become more perpetually tolerated, while still ill-defined or understood, even by those who adapt to such things.

On "Pottery and Horses": I don't suspect you're familiar with "1guy1cup" or have heard of "Mr. Hands", being examples of how definitions of "orientation" can excuse almost any sort of behavior without examining any other *causative*, i.e. mental illness?

These statements are very-well they just are...
In any case these cities were certainly not abandoned for *no reason*, and again a narrow and stereotypical assumption about what they *believed*, as if our *rational* interpretation of *mysticism and magick* aptly explains thier ideas about thier understanding of nature or reality. My only suggestion here would be further research and more critical thinking.

[fuborks]

It's foolish and ignorant to think that Native American cultures and socities did not have war, murder, hatred, Xenophobia, Patriarchy/Matriarchy, religion, politics, dogma, racism, homophobia, anarchy, sin, concepts of hell/heaven/the afterlife, or fear and superstitions.

These things have been a part of humanity since it started and they are not going away anytime soon.

As far as what we'd call homosexuality, bisexuality, or being trans goes they are not the same as being two spirited or a berdache since they are none of these things since being bi/gay/trans is a modern invention.

Where did I say not? Though the regarding tone seems to suggest that we are more civilized and rational than they, though our societies have no more evolved beyond such defects. Perhaps were the Indigenous Natives as xenophobic and racist and war-monging and anarchistic etc...They may not have perished in the fashion they did.

[Doggiestyle]

:bigrin: Wow man, I must be different from everybody else at Bisexual web site. ;) Because when I am busy with sex, all this culture, gender, theory & design, traditions, ETC stuff never comes to my mind. :tong:

Your friend, :doggie:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

You know what you should actually do, Idjet? Excuse me, Isit....
Before you go touting about things you really have no first-hand/lived it information of, you should find out the real facts on a subject, because believe me Son, you're way off base here when it comes to putting in your :2cents: worth on Anything concerning Native American cultures.
To quote one the patches I sell "If you havent been there, shut yer mouth"
Cat

[MetaSexual2]

Cat, why don't you pull this thread back in a useful direction? How about you and Cody tells us about how bisexuality is, or was in the past, treated in native culture? Were queer people treated as something to be set apart?

[fuborks]

Try studying Anthropology, Archaeology, and history.

May I ask, does the name Rouse mean anything to you? How about the term redware? Or Casimiroid, or Ortoiroid or Zemi?

If not, then my suggestion stands-AND I do believe it was I who listed *those things* not you.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ty Met, but this thread Isnt about the Native American culture, spacifically. And I'm not in the mood to get into a big tirade that was aimed to agitate those of us of NA decent. I'm not to get the trolls off on this one.
Carry on..
Cat

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

And PS I'm too much of a lady, even with this 102 degree fever, to tell Berserker to fuck off in no uncertain words over something he knows absolutly Nothing about.
Kisses to you Cody! lol
Cat

[12voltman59]

Ty Met, but this thread Isnt about the Native American culture, spacifically. And I'm not in the mood to get into a big tirade that was aimed to agitate those of us of NA decent. I'm not to get the trolls off on this one.
Carry on..
Cat

Good foryou Cat---IsIt is obviously a "troll" and only seeks to stir agitation and such--he obviously did not spend a few minutes even giving the most cursory once over of that material I had provided links to in that previous post--but then---with him--its either a case of "don't confuse with the facts-my mind is made up" or he otherwise just doesn't care that he knows not what of he speaks!!!

No sense in trying to be reasonable--there is no way to reason with an unreasonable person!

[mrplayfuluk]

haha Berserker, if you weren't so sad you'd be funny.... at Xenophobe Convention


pityful

[codybear3]

Cherokee and Cody can pretend that they know what it's like but they really don't since they were not around in ancient times.

I'm sure as full injuns like Cody, or half redskins in the case of Cherokee they have had to deal with a lot of homophobia and biphobia from modern day Indians.

Indians have inferior genes such as obesity, alcoholism, diabetes, or how Indians have fucked up their land and lives.

Native communities also have homophobia, discrimination, and violence against people who engage in same-sex behaviors. GLBT and Two-Spirit people may avoid HIV/AIDS education, services, testing, and care because of this.

GLBT and Two-Spirit people have the highest infection rates among Native populations. These groups make up 81 percent of the reported AIDS cases.

Compared to heterosexual youth, GLBT youth are twice as likely to use drugs. This places them at a higher risk for HIV infection.

GLBT and Two-Spirit Native people have also experienced homophobia in some Native urban and tribal health clinics. Such treatment may discourage them from seeking necessary medical services and testing.

If I had to explain, and I don't care to, you wouldn't understand. because you don't want to... Its more important for all you fools to try and out do each other about things you no nothing about. In this waste of thread, it was mentioned that "you can look up on the internet anything you want to prove" about some bullshit or another... Many of the "things" about the People were passed down from Fathers to their Fathers Fathers... There are things that will never be known by the general population simply because they will not make time to truly understand it... But trust me, please continue because the Dineh are really entertained at this time...:paw::paw:

P.S. - Metasexual, these people don't know what they are saying and it is better for the People if they really didn't know...:):paw::paw:

[codybear3]

Thought you'd have at the least changed a word or two before sending this to me in PM... But I'll answer you just the same... If you say so...

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Dont worry about it Brother. He's running out of material in his little arsenal to have had to post the same one Twice.
Just ignore it. Its not worth gettingt upset over. He and all of his little personas know jack SHIT about anything in the real world, so ignore him like the rude little boy, and possibly little girl, that he is.
Cat