It's getting hot out there---it's the age of incivility!! [Archive]

Doggiestyle

Aug 1, 2009, 12:28 AM

Hell yes it's getting hot for the politicans out there, and it's gonna get hotter too. It needs to also - cause - dammmmm - here I go - GRRRRRRRR :soapbox:
Us common, ordinary, off the street people elect these politicans to "mind the gov't store" for us and supposedly for our best interest. Were supposedly are busy with our life and don't have the time to do do the gov't business. So, like I said, we elect officals to do this for us. But the problem is that they are supporting / bought out by the rich / investors / management of corporate america, thru the lobbyist groups in Washington!
Remember what Obama promised during his campain, about a tax increase only on those makin over 1/4 mill!!! Well thats BULLSHIT (sounds like read my lips, no new taxes) more BULLSHIT. Something that really cannot be done is tax the rich / investers / management of corporate america. BECAUSE, if you add or increase a tax to them. Then all they do is add it to the cost of their products / and or / services. In other words the consumer will pay it, not them, WE will. :mad: :disgust: :mad: :disgust:

And now that the politicans have let the corporate world run america into the poorhouse. What does the politicans (gov't) do? They borrow all they can and what they need to make up rest they print it up (that's called counterfeiting). This money will have to be paid back, OR the US will have to de-value it's worth as compared to the other country's of the world. OR just do nothing and let inflation take over and it will automaticly de-value america's worth. (which is what I think will happen). A INDIVIDUAL, OR A COUNTRY CANNOT BORROW OR PRINT MONEY AND SPEND IT'S SELF OUT OF DEBT, OR INTO PROSPERITY.

Obama has said that he plans on makin the gov't bail-out money back. Now it all sounds good, the way he described how it's going to happen. But I really cannot see it. CAUSE all the money that was used in the housing industry is mostly bad debt. If the debtor dosen't have any money, you are not going to collect anything from them. Even though the gov't has the title to the propertys, which is good collateral, the propertys are not being maintained! So, there goes that collateral. Then theres the auto industry, they will want their corporate money first, I can almost bet that the gov't will come last on this one. It is however, very possible that they could pay theirs back. It will really depend on how much that will add to the price of their cars. If it adds to much to the price of their cars, then "there she goes" and the debt with it!

I have my opinion to what all this big time gov't spending will ultimately mean to America. But you probably don't want to hear it, cause it's not good. Me thinkin that we don't need to raise hell at the politicans. We need to fire em or throw them in jail for fraud. We need to run all the lobbyist / special interest groups out of washington, and vote in some officals that will represent the general population of America

And we just think that the economy is all screwed up in the U S A. Just wait till they get into the health-care issue. Believe me, we don't want gov't run healthcare. That would be a real big mistake.

And this is just the begining. Your friend, :doggie: ......:flag4:

MetaSexual2

Aug 1, 2009, 3:41 AM

Voltie - Great post. Its getting really depressing to see so much energy wasted on issues that do not matter. Imagine all the heat and light being generated over the nonsensical birther issue applied to something that actually improved conditions in the US.

Doggie - politicians do require pressure to do the right thing, and we should applying more of it. However, the issues most people are getting heated up over have no basis in reality. Its good to see people get excited about economics, however I wish they would go learn something about how the financial system actually works before spreading propaganda which is simply not true.

There is no economic data to suggest raising the income taxes of the wealthiest one percent encourages follow on pricing to those of lower status. This is part of the ideas of "trickle down economics" which have been shown to be incorrect in a number of good studies. Progressive taxation is a way of creating social mobility, which is desperately needed to keep an economy growing. The US, and much of the western world, has problems with an increasing separation between the wealthiest and poorest that needs to be addressed.

Politicians in the US do not make decisions on money supply issues, the Federal Reserve does. Money supply regulation is one of the trickiest issues in macroeconomics. Not easing credit in the middle of a crisis can be just as dangerous as over-increasing the money supply. Unfortunately this is not a simple issue and requires very high level studies that are not easily accessible to the general public.

On borrowing - I have known several people who started their businesses on credit cards or loans and went on to great success. There are several countries that have also borrowed their way to success. Its not the debt that is the issue, its what you do with the money you borrow that matters.

None of the health care proposals put forward have government "running" health care. Most of them set up the government as a competing insurer. Health insurance companies in the US are creating a destructive, non-zero sum environment in the industry that needs to be stopped. US healthcare is now less effective than most other systems in the western world.

Pressure your politicians, spread the word, but make sure you educate yourself before going off on issues you may not understand. The spread of misinformation in a society is very damaging, and we are seeing the direct results of that now.

hudson9

Aug 1, 2009, 2:02 PM

It can only be a good thing that people are motivated to let their representatives know what they think. The problem is to make sure they're not just hearing from the lunatic fringe (like the "Birthers" and Teabag Partiers!) or the Astro-Turf (faux "grass roots") groups.

As far as the futility of increasing taxes on the rich -- take a look at Paul Krugman's excellent book, "The Return of Depression Economics" (http://books.google.com/books?id=92DDXGxDK2oC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:Paul+inauthor:R+inauthor:Krugman&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false). Among other things, he notes that during the Eisenhower administration, the U.S. had it's most "progressive" income tax, and not only was there the lowest degree of income inequality, but there was some of the greatest economic growth in U.S. history. Even if you want to argue that progressive taxation didn't create the economic growth, it certainly does NOT seem to have stifled it!

So yea, the country may have soundly repudiated the neo-con Republicans in the last election, but the vested corporate interests still have their tentacles entwined in Washington. Unless "We, The People" KEEP letting the pols. know we meant it in the last election, the guys with the $$ will continue to call the shots.

:2cents:

hudson9

Aug 1, 2009, 2:12 PM

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 1, 2009, 2:39 PM

Oooo... another thought...

Regarding the "Birthers"... Does anybody else recall that when a question broke during the campaign about McCAIN's citizenship (born in Panama, not in one of the 50 states), that Congressional Democrats went ON RECORD, passing a resolution confirming that McCain was indeed a U.S. citizen?

But now, there are 17 Republicans in Congress (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/07/28/birther_enablers/) who are pandering to/enabling (in the substance-abuse sense) the Obama Birther wackos?

Does this tell us anything about where much of the incivility in our political discourse is coming from?
:2cents::2cents:

Well as far as McCain's situation goes... he was given a pass because his parents were there as part of the US Military force overseeing the Panama Canal... there is a provision for that. And they were very upfront about it!

As far as Obama... the one observation I would have is why he will not release his Birth Certificate. All of the problems go away if you have proof. He has released the short form, but not the actual Birth Certificate. And why did they have to post three different versions of the short form before they say they got the right one.

My main concern about Obama is that he seemed to get a pass... from the press, from Republicans, from any one outside of alternative media. It feels more like he has something to hide. Thank God finally some folks are starting to question him...

But enough about Obama's birth... The real problem in this country right now is that the government seems to be handing all of it's power over to the banks... Some of the new powers they want to give the FED are just ridiculous. And what is worse is that there is nothing Federal about the Federal Reserve... it is a private bank!! That is why there is a big move in the house right now to Audit the FED... and the FED is fighting against it tooth and nail.

And don't get me started on the new bankrupt the country plan... oh sorry I mean health care plan. If I'm sick I don't want to have to go before a board and beg to be treated... If my grandmother is has Cancer I don't want them telling her... "well you have live a long life... good day" Our current system might not be perfect but at least I have some control my own health care decisions...

Ok I'll get off of the Rant box now.... LOL

Joshua

AdamKadmon43

Aug 1, 2009, 3:39 PM

As far as Obama... the one observation I would have is why he will not release his Birth Certificate. All of the problems go away if you have proof. He has released the short form, but not the actual Birth Certificate. And why did they have to post three different versions of the short form before they say they got the right one.

Joshua

I have no doubt that Obama is an American citizen. I sometimes suspect that the reason for not releasing the actual Birth Certificate is because there is something on it that he doesn't want to be seen. Perhaps his mother listed his race as "white" or his family religion as Muslim (making him currently an Apostate, and we all know what that is punishable by in the Muslim world).

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 1, 2009, 5:39 PM

I have no doubt that Obama is an American citizen.

Why Not? Why do you have no doubt?

There is more then enough shenanigans out there to make a 12 person jury suspicious.

His own grandmothers saying he was born in Kenya, the Kenyan Newspapers hailing a Kenyan in the white house... the fact that his website put up one document claiming that it was his Birth certificate... then when folks started questioning it... the replaced it with a slightly different one... then another one... each time saying oops... that was not the right one this is.

And if that is not enough for you... how about the fact that when his mother remarried Mr. Soetoro, who then adopted Barack, and had his legal name changed to Barry Soetoro. That adoption would have nulled his US citizenship as a citizen of Indonesia. Now granted he moved back to the States before he was 18, and could have went before a judge before he turned 18 to renounce his Indonesian citizenship to regain his US citizanship if was indeed as US citizen. However, there is no record of that either....

In fact, there is high likelihood that claimed himself an Indonesian or Kenyan in College, to get better grants and such... however he has also refused to allow any of his College records released either... Also he went by the name Barry while in college... didn't start going by Barack Obama until he got into politics

Now... to be honest I can't tell you whether or not he is a US citizen... but my point is there is a lot of smoke and mirrors on both sides of this issue... And I don't see how anyone can say for certain that he is a US citizen...

If he is a US citizen there a few simple things that could be done to prove it... instead... he keep giving people the run around and playing games. and the fact that no one in the big media gives it the light of day... this is scandal material... you would thing they would be all over it!

There is something fishy going on... that is all I'm saying.

Oh and by the way... I'm not a republican... in fact my personal feeling is that the left/right thing is only there to polarize us... so that we are so worried about what the guy is doing, that we are not watching what our own guys are doing. I would most likely be closer to a libertarian, or a constitutionalists...

Joshua

AdamKadmon43

Aug 1, 2009, 6:29 PM

I think you been listening to too much Talk Radio.

bimwmdecatur

Aug 2, 2009, 12:50 AM

Well several things come to mind. One regarding the wonderful "Health Care" plan. Do you not wonder why the Congress is working so hard to give you a health care plan that does not include them? They have gold plated coverage and could care less about you. Whatever they vote on for you will not apply to them. If you are part of the administration you get an escort to take you to the front of the line when going to see the doctor in Washington.

Another is the stupidity of voting on a bill that one has no idea what it contains. There was no way that Congress could have known what was in the multi billion bail out bill, but like sheep going to the slaughter they voted for it anyway. This happens all the time.

The administration is pushing for a early vote on health care and no one in the Congress knows what is in the final legislation. There are even provisions in H.R. 3200 to have gun control tied to health care.

Folks these people in Congress has done it to themselves. They deserve to catch some heat from the people in this country who will have to pay the bill for their foolishness and their lack of responsibility.

We do have problems in this country that will have to be dealt with, but rushing through legislation that is ill conceived is not the way to solve problems.

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO), a non partisian group has indicated that the current proposals for all of these various bills will bankrupt the country.

Your children, grand children and great grand children will be paying the bill for this garbage long after we are dead and gone.

Please excuse the rant. Whether or not you agree with what is going on in Congress you should be emailing, writing or calling your representatives and Senators and telling them what YOU think.

TaylorMade

Aug 2, 2009, 12:54 AM

Nope, you can find this on the internet and while I don't adhere to the concept, it's not out of the range of possibility if one just takes the blinders off. You don't need alot of people to pull it off. I think the current POTUS WAS born here and a US citizen, but may have claimed foreign citizenship to get scholarships. Look at where I live (Miami). . .people do it many times to get into UM and elsewhere.

Actual conversation (nationalities changed to protect the guilty as hell)

Me: "Didn't you go to my elementary school?We were born in the same hospital! And NOW you're claiming Israeli citizenship? Since when?"

Friend from school: "Bitch, I exercised my right of return and got my citizenship and did a tour in the IDF. Now help me photocopy my I-9."

*Taylor*

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 2, 2009, 2:09 AM

I think you been listening to too much Talk Radio.

No I don't listen to talk radio... except Coast to Coast... and that is mostly for the weirdos...

I do read a lot of world news... not the drink the koolaid crap from the alphabet networks. Drudge report is a great site too... he tends to find real news without the fluff.

MetaSexual2

Aug 2, 2009, 3:01 AM

No I don't listen to talk radio... except Coast to Coast... and that is mostly for the weirdos...

I do read a lot of world news... not the drink the koolaid crap from the alphabet networks. Drudge report is a great site too... he tends to find real news without the fluff.

Drudge used to be a good site, over the last eight years or so he has become less independent and now is little more than another propaganda agent. I mainly see lies and distortions there now, no longer any "real" news. At least the major networks (excepting Fox) make an attempt at impartiality, Drudge and his ilk are almost purely biased now. He also hasn't broken a real story in years.

TaylorMade

Aug 2, 2009, 3:33 AM

Drudge used to be a good site, over the last eight years or so he has become less independent and now is little more than another propaganda agent. I mainly see lies and distortions there now, no longer any "real" news. At least the major networks (excepting Fox) make an attempt at impartiality, Drudge and his ilk are almost purely biased now. He also hasn't broken a real story in years.

I disagree. Drudge still knows how to break a story and it doesn't matter who it's for/against. . .He was out in front with both the Spitzer AND Sanford affairs.

*Taylor*

MetaSexual2

Aug 2, 2009, 4:04 AM

Actually Taylor, he wasn't in front on either of those stories. Go check the Google news records on publication times if don't believe me. He was following along with the major news organisations. Its getting much easier to follow patterns of information flow among news sources which makes for some interesting research.

hudson9

Aug 2, 2009, 2:30 PM

As far as Obama... the one observation I would have is why he will not release his Birth Certificate. All of the problems go away if you have proof. He has released the short form, but not the actual Birth Certificate.

Excuse me, HE HAS!!! It's not "the short form" -- it's the ONLY form that the county clerk releases!

This took me about 10 SECONDS on Google:
snopes.com: Barack Obama Birth Certificate (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp)
FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-obama-hawaii_N.htm
Hawaii again declares Obama birth certificate real - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090728/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_birth_certificate)

There IS NO QUESTION. The only people who are pushing this question are people on the extreem right wing. All "mainstream" sources report their investigations show the Birth Certificate valid. Even the conservative National Review (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTRjMTFhMzQxYmEzNjA2YWIwOTU4YWVjNzRmODE2NTI=) (William Buckley's mag.) says its valid!

So please, please, make an effort to stay at least moderately informed and listen to things at least slightly critically -- at least before you repeat them!
:2cents:

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 2, 2009, 5:41 PM

Excuse me, HE HAS!!! It's not "the short form" -- it's the ONLY form that the county clerk releases!

This took me about 10 SECONDS on Google:

Actually it is the short form... and yes there is a full birth certificate, However, it cannot be released without Barack OK'ing it. The full Birth Certificate would have much more information on it. You didn't read your own websites well or you would have known that.

And yes I have read all of you google sources before... and again... with all of the other questions surrounding it... like his grandmother's claim he was born there, like the fact they had to post it three time before they got the "Real" one up... it could very easily be fixed by one act.

And yes I know that Health director claims to have seen it and that it is authentic... but then you are stuck taking one guys word for it... people can be paid off... it is the fact that there is so much misinformation on both sides ... that could be cleared up easily.

But that is beside the point... He also has his adoption problem to deal with... he didn't change is name back to Barack Obama until he was out of college and getting into politics.

But frankly I'm less worried about his citizenship or lack there of then I am of the hole he keeps digging us into.

Oh and I'm very well informed thank you... I just choose not to drink the Alphabet network Koolaid... Most US based news orgs are practically state run... And as stated before I can't stand talk radio...

any way you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want... and we will see who is right in the next few years... Personally I'm stocking up on food and other necessitates... Because the future don't look too bright.

Josh

AdamKadmon43

Aug 2, 2009, 6:59 PM

12voltman59

Aug 2, 2009, 10:53 PM

If I were Barack Obama, I would not stoop so low as to give any credence as all or dignify the "birther controversy" by responding to it---if he does--he will spend whatever the amount of time he will remain in office responding to every bat shit crazy thing those opposed to him would conjure out of the ethers---for anyone who is paying attention and is at all objective about it---there is no doubt that Barack Obama is a natural born US citizen--even Bill O'Reilly on FOX reported on this last year and admits that anyone who believes Obama is not a true citizen is either a consipiracy nut or just not paying attention to the what dozens of legitimate news agencies have reported-----if you hate Obama that is one thing-oppose him on his pollicies and actions--there is more than enough ammo in that regard----but don't rely on conspiracy whack job shit like "Obama isn't a citizen so he's an illegitimate president!!"

While I do personally think the only way we are ever going to get decent health care coverage in the US is to have a true "one payer system"--i.e. the government being that provider-----I am opposed to the one thing that is most likely going to emerge from the current plans making their ways around the Senate and Congress----the mandate that everyone gets health care insurance like it is mandated that we get insurance for our cars.

I do wonder---if ya cannot afford health care insurance or the companies won't let ya get it because you have "a pre-existinng condition"--are you going to be tried with having committed a crime, then convicted, sentenced and have to serve time--at least then--you will be getting some "socialized medicine."

All this crap that what is going to come out of the current "health care reform" is soclialized medicine is total bullshit--the big health care insurers, big pharma and the AMA all are basically the ones righting the legislation---don't think for a second they are going to let any sort of "socialized medicine" creep in---what we are going the get is just more of the same old same old,,, higher and higher premimums for less and less coverage, higher and higher deductibles and co-pays for less coverage---getting dropped the instant you make a major claim and no way to get insurance from other insurers at any price---and more and more people not having health care and our standard of living goes down as does our life expectancy and things of that nature.

But the one thing that will continue to increase---the big health care related companies will continue to make record profits and the CEOs of these companies will laugh all the way to the bank, making tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in annual bonuses.

America spends per capita more for health care than any other nation on the planet yet we have ever increasing numbers of those in actual and percentage numbers who don't have health care----on every standard of health---we are now way, way down the lists---we are 50th in life expectancy now!!!

All that crap about us now having a direct line between ourselves and our doctors is crap--and its crap that if we had government health care we would have some bureaucrats making decisions about limiting our health care--do you not think we have that now??? The insurance companies hire legions of people (not doctors or otherwise having any other medical training or experience) whose main job it is is to go over the bills and other documents that our docs send to our insurers---looking for the things they are not going to cover at all or at least very much limit how much they are going to cover.

A total take over of healthcare by the government cannot be any worse than the situation we have now----it is pretty well fucked up if you look at the current situation objectively---- and we might actually get effective preventative health care covered if we had government health care---the insurance companies don't really pay for effective preventative care now---they are penny wise and pound foolish in that they won't pay one penny for several expensive, but very effective long term medically monitored programs to help obese people lose weight--but yet they wiil pay for ya if you have to go to the CCU when you have a heart attack-and they pay for your care for a few weeks once you get diabetes---but then they drop coverage on your ass since your diabetes is going to cost them so much to cover--but both the heart attack or the diabetes could in all probability been prevented had they paid for the weight loss programs.

To hell with the damn insurance companies--they do not care about making people healthy---they are profit making concerns and if they cannot make a profit if they really truly provided health care to the degree it is actually needed!!!!

They are all about making a profit and that is fine--fine if you are making widgets----but taking care of human health is not the same thing as making tangible products where you can control the costs of many production inputs.

12voltman59

Aug 2, 2009, 11:19 PM

If I were Barack Obama, I would not stoop so low as to give any credence at all or dignify the "birther controversy" by responding to it---if he does--he will spend whatever the amount of time he will remain in office responding to every bat shit crazy thing those opposed to him would conjure out of the ethers---for anyone who is paying attention and is at all objective about it---there is no doubt that Barack Obama is a natural born US citizen--even Bill O'Reilly on FOX reported on this last year on this finding that Obama is indeed a certifiable US citizen and admits that anyone who believes Obama is not a true citizen is either a consipiracy nut or just not paying attention to the what dozens of legitimate news agencies have reported-----if you hate Obama that is one thing---oppose him on his policies and actions--there is more than enough ammo in that regard----but don't rely on conspiracy whack job shit like "Obama isn't a citizen so he's an illegitimate president!!"

On Health Care:
While I do personally think the only way we are ever going to get decent health care coverage in the US is to have a true "one payer system"--i.e. the government being that provider-----I am opposed to the one thing that is most likely going to emerge from the current plans making their ways around the Senate and Congress----the mandate that everyone gets health care insurance like it is mandated that we get insurance for our cars, so with this prospect looming--I'd rather have no plan successfully emerge from Congress!!

I do wonder with health care insurance mandate---if ya cannot afford health care insurance or the companies won't let ya get it because you have "a pre-existinng condition"--are you going to be tried with having committed a crime, then convicted, sentenced and have to serve time??--at least then--you will be getting some "socialized medicine."

All this crap that what is going to come out of the current "health care reform" is soclialized medicine is total bullshit--the big health care insurers, big pharma and the AMA all are basically the ones righting the legislation---don't think for a second they are going to let any sort of "socialized medicine" creep in---what we are going the get is just more of the same old same old,,, higher and higher premimums for less and less coverage, higher and higher deductibles and co-pays for less coverage---getting dropped the instant you make a major claim and no way to get insurance from other insurers at any price after that---and more and more people not having health care and our standard of living goes down as does our life expectancy and things of that nature.

But the one thing that will continue to increase---the big health care related companies will continue to make record profits and the CEOs of these companies will laugh all the way to the bank, making tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in annual bonuses.

America spends per capita more for health care than any other nation on the planet yet we have ever increasing numbers of those in actual and percentage numbers who don't have health care----on every standard of health---we are now way, way down the lists---we are 50th in life expectancy now!!!

All that crap about us now having a direct line between ourselves and our doctors is crap--and its crap that if we had government health care--that is the only way we would have some bureaucrats making decisions about limiting our health care--do you not think we have that now???
The insurance companies hire legions of people (not doctors or those otherwise having any other medical training or experience) whose main job it is is to go over the bills and other documents that our docs send to our insurers---looking for the things they are not going to cover at all or at least very much limit how much they are going to cover.

A total take over of healthcare by the government cannot be any worse than the situation we have now----it is pretty well fucked up if you look at the current situation objectively---- and we might actually get effective preventative health care covered if we had government health care---the insurance companies don't really pay for effective preventative care now---they are penny wise and pound foolish in that they won't pay one penny for several expensive, but very effective long term medically monitored programs to help obese people lose weight that exist out there-(programs created as a cooperative effort of several major universitities and hospitals)----but yet they wiil pay for ya if you have to go to the CCU when you have a heart attack-and they pay for your care for a few weeks once you get diabetes---but then they drop coverage on your ass since your diabetes is going to cost them so much to cover--but both the heart attack or the diabetes could in all probability been prevented had they paid for the weight loss programs to begin with.

To hell with the damn insurance companies--they do not care about making people healthy---they are profit making concerns and if they cannot make a profit if they really truly provided health care to the degree it is actually needed!!!! It is a total contradiction in terms for a profit making company to provide real health care----an oximoron as they say like "military intelligence!"

Those big companies are all about making a profit and that is fine--fine if you are making "widgets"----but taking care of human health is not the same thing as making tangible products where you can control the costs of many production inputs, to the degree possible.

To illustrate the point I made above about insurance companies squeezing out "costs to maximize profits"--in recent years---Aetna--a major insurer had gone on a binge of taking over a number of smaller HMOs/PPO type health care insurers--to the tune that at one point---they had over 21 million policy holders----the CEO then looked at the bottom line and lo and behold---Aetna's stock price had taken a major hit---so--Mr. CEO ordered a top to bottom revamp of policies and restructred the rules of what sort of "customers" they would continue to insure.

Anyone who had health problems that cost a lot to provide treatment---irrespective of any other factor----got dumped to the tune that 8 million policy holders were dumped by Aetna in the past few years---many of those people could not go on to get coverage with other health care providers since they had "pre-existing conditions" that precluded them from obtaining new coverage.

For Aetna---and the CEO, Ron Williams--it was a good deal---the stock rose- and the board, happy that shareholder value had been dramatically increased thanks to his great leadership----gave him a bonus to the tune of many millions of dollars.

This information comes from an interview conducted by Bill Moyers on his show of Wendell Potter---a former health insurance executive now talking and shedding light on the ways of health care insurers to basically limit the coverage they provide to customers while protecting their massive profits.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/watch.html

12voltman59

Aug 3, 2009, 12:23 AM

For supposedly being "the best health care system money can buy" as proponents of our "free market system" like to say--why in the hell is our health care system ranked 37th in by the World Health Organization???

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Also an interesting Frontline program on the health care systems in other countries:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

It was interesting to see what other countries have done and I would like to think that we could rationally and reasonably go about studying what has been done in other countries as Taiwan did and pick and choose real alternatives instead of the current way we are doing it--we have that "its one way or the other--or no way!" It is sad as a supposedly intelligent people, all we get it rhetoric, hyperbole, misinformation and bascially---stupidity instead of something substantive. We have people freaking out like Pavlov's dogs at any notion of the government having any real role in this issue--it is a sad state of affairs.

12voltman59

Aug 3, 2009, 1:35 AM

Once again---reading on in some of the things I found online---this report is most interesting: http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

I found one part to be of particular interest and it echos some of the things TR Reid found in his travels to other countries for the Frontline story and also some of the comments of Wendell Potter in his interview with Bill Moyers regarding the inefficiencies of administrative costs in the American health care system:

But the report also emphasizes the inefficiencies of the American health care system. The administrative costs of the medical insurance system consume much more of the current health care dollar, about 7.5 percent, than in other countries.

Bringing those administrative costs down to the level of 5 percent or so as in Germany and Switzerland, where private insurers play a significant role, would save an estimated $50 billion a year in the United States, Ms. Davis said.

“It kind of dwarfs everything else you can do,” she said

From what I saw on the Frontline piece---if we had some real and true discussion of ways to change health care---I would think we could do some hybrid system where government plays a role in setting parameters for various things--while private carriers could be the ones to offer the plans----it seems to work for other countries---countries that do score higher on various metrics showing they provide better health care than does our current "free market system."

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 3, 2009, 2:48 AM

Well isn't this interesting timing...

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764

Josh

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 3, 2009, 3:00 AM

Oh... and here are a few interesting things on this new health car reform bill... Layman rundown:

• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

12voltman59

Aug 3, 2009, 10:59 AM

At this point Josh--we really don't know what is going to come out of the "health care reform" since they have not yet settled on one plan---there are various ones floating around out there---the one thing I am sure will happen with the way things are now--most of us are going to be screwed royally no matter what----it just seems that we are no longer capable of creating anything that is not a jambled mess----we have all sorts of various interest groups that with their money and access to those in power--they get what "they" want and that usually means that the vast majority of us get in the rump, a hard screwing done without benefit of any sort of lubrication!!

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 3, 2009, 12:52 PM

also guys... I'm not saying that health care reform is not needed... I just don't think with the current leadership that any good can come from it.

They have already thrown away trillions of dollars on the stupid bailouts... of which most went to Foreign banks... I don't expect much from them at all.

Just look at the number of democrats against this Health Care bill... and there are a lot of pissed off doctors right now screaming that the AMA has sold them out... http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=PR&date=20090717&id=10155133

anyway...

Josh

hudson9

Aug 3, 2009, 10:47 PM

So Josh, did you read those 495+ pages yourself and come up with this tally? (And as Volty pointed out, which of the 4 different bills being worked on by 4 different committees does it refer to?)

Or did someone else do it -- and if so, who? Was it World Net Daily, the source of the "interesting" Obama Kenya birth certificate? Because I'd be kind of leery of the analysis of a website that trusts implicitly a birth certificate "Certification" (not an original! - mock horror) dated 8 months BEFORE a "Republic of Kenya" existed, who's number just happens to be 47O44-- 47 (Obama's age when he became president, followed by the letter O (not a zero) followed by 44--he is the 44th president), registered in Mombasa (which belonged to Zanzibar when Obama was born, not Kenya), and "signed" by EF Lavender (the name of a popular laundry detergent).

So, yea. It is very interesting. Even more interesting than you perhaps thought.

P.S. Karl Rove responded to the circulation of the new paper on Twitter, saying "I believe this is likely a forgery."

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 5, 2009, 2:54 PM

Sorry, for taking so long to reply... 12 hour days at work does not leave much time for websurfing.

So Josh, did you read those 495+ pages yourself and come up with this tally? (And as Volty pointed out, which of the 4 different bills being worked on by 4 different committees does it refer to?)

No I did not read all the pages myself, but I trust the source I got them from... (No it was not WND) and then I did go out the google... find a copy of the bill and spot checked several of the points for myself. Everything I found, including the part about the real time monitoring of your bank account, was pretty spot on.

So, yea. It is very interesting. Even more interesting than you perhaps thought.

P.S. Karl Rove responded to the circulation of the new paper on Twitter, saying "I believe this is likely a forgery."

Hey for my part I was just amused that it came out at the same time as we were discussing Obama's eligibility. I wasn't making any claims of validity. Which by the way, regardless of his being born in Hawaii or Kenya... if he is still a citizen of Indonesia, it is all a moot point.

Josh

hudson9

Aug 5, 2009, 4:12 PM

...No I did not read all the pages myself, but I trust the source I got them from...

But, you still haven't told US who they are... are you afraid we won't trust them if we know who it is?

...regardless of his being born in Hawaii or Kenya... if he is still a citizen of Indonesia, it is all a moot point.

Oh Lord! Josh, my friend, please! Everytime a "Birther" theory is disproved, another one jumps up to take its place! As noted in an article on Salon.com (Why the stories about Obama's birth certificate will never die (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/05/birth_certificate/)):

...according to several experts in conspiracy theories, and in the psychology of people who believe in conspiracy theories, there's little chance those people who think Obama is barred from the presidency will ever be convinced otherwise. "There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind," says Michael Shermer, who is the publisher of Skeptic magazine and a columnist for Scientific American, and who holds an undergraduate and a master's degree in psychology. "The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it ... Once you're committed, especially behaviorally committed or financially committed, the more impossible it becomes to change your mind."

Any inconvenient facts are irrelevant. People who believe in a conspiracy theory "develop a selective perception, their mind refuses to accept contrary evidence," [according to] Chip Berlet, a senior analyst with Political Research Associates who studies such theories...

Please Josh, DON'T DRINK THE COOL-ADE!!
:)
(And hey, don't work so hard!!)

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 6, 2009, 7:12 AM

Not really that I was trying to hide anything... but here you go:

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/whats-in-healthacre-bill.html

Now he got this "translation" from http://blog.flecksoflife.com/2009/07/30/politifacts-checks-a-chain-email-i-check-politifact/

He goes through point by point, and he also realizes that these were his first impressions as he read through the bill.

As for my info on Obama... I have got most on my info from the main attorney that has been trying this case in the courts since before the election, Phillip J. Berg. The big thing that is really interesting, is according to Mr. Berg, one of the things that drive him forward is how he keeps being blocked. Loopholes, and such. Not to mention the recent refusal of the current U.S. Attorney General, Eric Holder, to even investigate it.

Mr. Berg has quite a lot of evidence, and it is not quite as flimsy as folks working for Obama make it out to be.

"There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind," [skipped] "The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it ... Once you're committed, especially behaviorally committed or financially committed, the more impossible it becomes to change your mind."

You also need to admit to yourself that this goes for you as well.

For example I'm very much the type person that admits when he is wrong... the "new" Birth certificate is most likely a forgery... for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, plus a lot more. Again... I saw it, thought it was a funny coincidence considering our conversation. However... My guess is that could very well be a plant, a diversion, placed out there to spread more confusion....

The other thing about conspiracy theorists... some times the conspiracy theorist is right... lately a lot of things that were conspiracy have been being brought to the mainstream news... with spin.

One example, for years I have been hearing about a world bank that we will pay a Carbon tax too... Now USA today, newsweek... servral other have told us "Yes there will be a world bank... but it is a good thing" There is legislation ongoing right now to bring about a tax on everything that produces Carbon... this is all mainstream news now....

How about instead of focusing on "Is Obama qualified for president," (because my whole point in this thread has not been to say he is or isn't, because I don't know! It was to point out that there is enough there that it should at least be looked into, and not just dismissed. At this point we are taking someones word for it, and as stated... it could all go away easily...) We focus on the real problems, what is going on now!

There seems to be a concerted effort right now to turn the US into a third world country. It is the same thing the National socialists did to Germany so that Hitler could come into power... the same thing that brought Lennon to power in Russia... it is history repeating itself.

The way the current leadership has fought to get this bill passed as is, and so quick no one will have a chance to read the final bill.... all of the stupid bailouts... the whole financial crisis that occurred because of the bad practices of the banks and congress changing the rules to allow those bad practices...

Military, against the Law, taking up position all over the US, "helping" the police at unlawful checkpoints (If anything this is the job of the National Gaurd, not the regular army, Oh but the NG is overseas while more of the standing force is back here)... The boy scouts for God's sake being trained to take down terrorists... Children being encouraged to tell on their parents, when they do something wrong... FEMA camps being set up all over the place to house folks that don't want to play along with the forced inoculations later this year...

And I know how all that sounds... but do a google search on Boy scouts training assault or here are a few on the FEMA camps http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... a&aid=7763 or http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name ... e&sid=1062

Most any of that is searchable

There are lots more out there...

(oh... and if salon is one of your normal news site... I can understand why we are not seeing eye to eye... it is so left wing the bird is doing barrel rolls.... LOL sorry... I just thought that was funny. Remember I like both my wings flappin :P )

Anyway... I'm off to bed. I'll leave you with one more link. This will either confirm your suspicions that I hold a bit of truth in some of those conspiracy theories... or it might just open your eyes a bit. I would only ask you give it an honest watch... don't just turn it off as soon as see what it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

Josh

MetaSexual2

Aug 7, 2009, 3:32 AM

Most any of that is searchable

There are lots more out there...

Josh

Searchable, but all half truths and blatant propaganda Josh. There are many legitimate criticisms of the Obama administration - on gay rights, on the choice of an incompetent NIH chief, on the continuation of illegal domestic surveillance to name a few. The stuff you are bringing though up is disconnected from reality and it isn't helpful to continually talk about fairy tales and ghost stories. You are allowing yourself to be manipulated by institutions that are working against your self interest by keeping you distracted from real issues.

You proved Godwin's law in a surprisingly short number of posts. OK, I'll play along. If you know the early history of the Third Reich, the parallels between what is happening in the US right now and then are quite striking. A minority party uses ugly, racist, anti-intellectual, anti-left propaganda to stir up populist sentiment to weaken an already comprised centrist government. Sound familiar?

There are things to discuss in the health care bill that don't have to do with scare mongering. This is a very large bill that has been assembled in a hurry and that not even all the elected representatives understand very well. There should be a public discussion about what it actually contains, but this isn't happening because the media is too focused on the insanity of the right and Vanessa Hudgen's boobies.

The points you posted above are a childish twisting of the contents of the bill. I know its not as much fun, but if you want to do something useful, grow up, be an adult and start digging into the bill's actual meaning. What impacts will the bill's provisions have on you and members of your community?

graytwo

Aug 7, 2009, 4:01 AM

...Its getting much easier to follow patterns of information flow among news sources which makes for some interesting research.

Only for those that research rather than just listening to the media expecting total truth.

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 7, 2009, 6:41 AM

Searchable, but all half truths and blatant propaganda Josh.

In other words you most likely didn't even attempt to look any of it up.

a planned seat belt checkpoint that was scheduled to be held “in conjunction with a Homeland Security training exercise by the 251st Military Police in Bolivar who recently returned from Iraq” on April 4. A lot of folks found out and exposed this planned violation of Posse Comitatus and resulted in the cancellation of Military participation in the checkpoint. Which by the way the checkpoints them selves are technically illegal. We can thank the patriot act for that.

Oh... and if you don't know Posse Comitatus: The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.

Here is NY Times talking about the scouts / explorers as they teach them skills like chasing down illegal border crossers...

“Put him on his face and put a knee in his back,” a Border Patrol agent explained. “I guarantee that he’ll shut up.”

And this is 14, 15 , 16 year olds...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html

here is even an article from the UK on our kids being encouraged to turn us in for eco violations. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/feb/01/ethicalliving-family

The stuff you are bringing though up is disconnected from reality and it isn't helpful to continually talk about fairy tales and ghost stories. You are allowing yourself to be manipulated by institutions that are working against your self interest by keeping you distracted from real issues.

What institutions? What I believe, I have come to these conclusions from my own research... I have a few aggregate sources like Dig, Drudge, Fark, even infowars, just to mention a few, that I use to find the latest news, and I read articles taken from all over the world. I do my own research... and sometimes I agree with the original interpretation and commentary of the articles, others I disagree with.

You proved Godwin's law in a surprisingly short number of posts. OK, I'll play along. If you know the early history of the Third Reich, the parallels between what is happening in the US right now and then are quite striking. A minority party uses ugly, racist, anti-intellectual, anti-left propaganda to stir up populist sentiment to weaken an already comprised centrist government. Sound familiar?

Ok First off I have not called anyone names, I have not made any racist remarks, And as I have stated I'm as much anti-right as I am left. The left/right paradigm is the best magic trick in the book... look at my left hand... not my right, Or vise verse. Anit-Intellectual... well I do tend to ramble on a bit, so I'll let that slide.

But what the hell? Racist? I would like for you to show me where I have been racists... because yes I do realize you were pointing at me with those comments.

What I was referring too was the way that both the National Socialists in Germany, and the Communists Russia, collapsed the economy of their countries, and had people so worried about how they were going to survive without the basics, that they welcomed the socialist systems to save them.

I say this again, everything that is happening in the US right now is all revolving around destroying the dollar, and putting us so far into debt, that we have no choice but to hand over all freedoms to the Government.

This is a very large bill that has been assembled in a hurry and that not even all the elected representatives understand very well. There should be a public discussion about what it actually contains...

Amen!!! The problem though... as you have seen with the previous bailouts, is that as soon as they sway enough votes that they can pass it... it will be crammed through at light speed! This new tactic of voting on a bill before anyone can read it is crazy... but I guess I'm just being paranoid.

The points you posted above are a childish twisting of the contents of the bill. I know its not as much fun, but if you want to do something useful, grow up, be an adult and start digging into the bill's actual meaning. What impacts will the bill's provisions have on you and members of your community?

Ah again with the name calling.... I'm a child. And I don't see any of this as fun!!!

As I have stated before... I have read quite a bit of the bill... at least the bill in it's current form. And I would draw the same conclusions those I posed before.

As far as my community... well it looks like I'm going to have to start planting a victory garden.... according to the CBO's (Congressional Budget Office) own findings... this bill, at least in it's current form will further run our economy into the ground.

Look I have said it before... I'll say it again... I'm all for Health care reform, but the approach they are using will destroy this country.

Anyway... I'll just take my childish, racist, anti-intellectual self... and go back to my cave... see if I can figure out how to start a fire...

Josh

TaylorMade

Aug 7, 2009, 8:34 AM

I guess we know which side is uncivil, don't we...

*Taylor*

12voltman59

Aug 7, 2009, 10:06 AM

Going back to the original point of this post---it seems that those who go and disrupt the town hall meetings--especially those town halls held by Democratic members of Congress that are disrupted by those who tend to be on the Republican/Conservative side---tend to only shout, yell, disrupt and make noise---making any sort of substantive and meaningful discussion possible--they just regurgitate all the various straw man, scare tactic, talking point memo "bullets" that are spread out there ---yet they do not offer anything constructive of their own or offer workable suggestions other than YELLING things like "no socialized medicine" or whatever it is they came to say----

The thing with the supposedly "grass roots" aspect of this is also BBBOOGGUSSS-----there is a cabal of corporate interests---the interests of big health insurers, the AMA, and big pharma that is funding the supposed "grass roots" orgs that put all this stuff out--what is amazing is at how so many "regular Joes and Janes" who can be so easlily manipulated to get mad and go out being the ones protesting---folks who seem to respond so easily to some knee jerk. emotional issues without really taking a look at things and they help to do the work of corporate interests that don't have the best interests of those "protestors" at heart---the only concern of those big companies is to preserve their right to make massive profits off the lives and DEATHS of tens of thousands of US citizens.

Since this new round of talks about health care began this year--big pharma, big medical insurers and the AMA have dumped tens of millions of dollars into the effort to kill any real changes to the health care inssue other than to maintain the status quo--if not improve their situation and most nasty of all---they have been funnelling tens of millions of dollars into the campaign funds of Congress and Senate members----Republicans and Democrats alike!!!!

I have read several articles on this--and did try to Google the subject but could not find the articles that I had seen with the numbers that were cited in those reports--but I did find an interesting and LONG article from the New York Times that discusses one of the scare tactic points raised by those who are opposed to any substantive changes in the way we provide health care---and that issue is "health care rationing"--it seems to be some idea those who support the current system and reject any consideration of a government system that we don't already ration health care----of course we do----the current rationing system is the big bugaboo---the cost of providing care and treatment-----the opponents of government plans always like to bandy that such systems "ration health care" --of course they do---but all of the various models of health care systems out there--pure government provided systems, pure captialist systems and hybrid systems all do some form of health care rationing---that is the way things are!!!!!

So--if you have the time and want to read something that is not a "sound bite/talking points memo" kind of look at one aspect of health care---go and read this article--it is five "pages" long and each page is kinda long----and even though some no longer consider it to be--the New York Times is recognized by most in the world as a legitimate news organization---

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I do have to say that my first thoughts on what would be the best way to go is to get rid of all private health care insurers and go entirely to a government provided system---but after doing my deeper look at this---I now feel that the best way is to have a hybrid system where the government acts as the rules setter as to setting certain requirements that the private insurers have to meet, but yet the coverage is provided by private insurers who can make a decent profit on providing that care, but within bounds, and thanks to the rules set by government---there is a level playing field that puts both the companies and those of us who need the coverage so that we actually have a relatively free market and the insurers don't dictate both the terms and costs of our health care as they do now-----or at least a "market" that acts more like a true "Free Market"--one in which the private companies compete for customers by providing good products and services at the best and most competitive prices possible.

US Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon is sponsor of such legistation that is bringing more of his colleages aboard--members of both parties have signed on to his plan thus far.

http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/Legislation/Healthy_Americans_Act.cfm

I am not saying that this legislation is the cure all and be all--but it seems to be on the right track at least!

TaylorMade

Aug 7, 2009, 10:49 AM

Then again, the white house has an e-mail address in which you can "Forward disinformation" . . . That. Disturbs. The. HELL. Outta. Me. When I think about it, I'd show up in my Brooks Brothers best to complain too.

*Taylor*

12voltman59

Aug 7, 2009, 11:15 AM

Well Taylor-- I don't find anything nefarious with the Obama administration wanting people to provide information about some of the various crazy claims being made out there by those opposed to health care reform--the crazy shit is coming fast and furious that it is hard to keep up with all of it---and the Obama people want to hear it so they can go and do what is necessary to refute the crazy shit.

The problem with refuting crazy shit--the crazy, bogus shit is stuff designed to appeal to people's visceral emotions and that makes it a hard thing to kill by use of rational, factual and reasonable arguments to the contrary----you can present such information in a rebuttal---but that rebuttal-no matter how reasonable, rational and factual is not often as easily digestable as the emotional sound bite pieces put out by "The Forces of No!"

People have to take a deep breath, calm down, open the mind and spend some real time to really consider arguments and information from both sides--

To me--the scary thing about this health care argument is the maco affect of the way this is being handled, like it is when other "hot button" issues these days like abortion, "gay" marriage and other even weightier matters are brought up----far too many people are so easlily maniputlated to go off half-cocked with all kinds of crazy things in their minds, fed to them and without them going deeper into those subjects.

That this situation is the way it is--I really do have to be most concerned about the viable continuation of our "way of life" and our system of government-----that we have so many people who get so stoked up--sometimes it seems mindlessly so---and now crossing the line to not only make noise--but resort to violence----it is very much a matter for concern.

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 7, 2009, 3:52 PM

Volty all I'm going to tell ya here is that real problems with modern health care is they have lost the ability to cure... now the only thing they are interested in is Treatment. A big part of the problem revolves around big Pharma...

The "drugs" they push only treat the problems... they don't cure. Take the Thyroid for example. Synthroid... the primary drug used in the treatment of Thyroid problems is majorly flawed.

The Thyroid produces 4 hormones that the body needs to function. T1 T2 T3 T4. Synthroid only deals with T3 and T4. Well actually it deals with T4... as T4 breaks down into T3. T3 will fix most of the physical effects of a Thyroid that is not working, but not all of them. The Missing T2 and T1 is more subtle. Makes you tired all the time. Can lead to a lot of other problems later in life... especially if you have been denied it a good bit of your life.

There are better alternatives out there to Synthroid, like Armour. Armour has been around for hundreds of years, and is one of the few natural "drugs" allowed by the FDA. Luckily my Doctor is bit more studied than most, and knows a lot of the natural supplements that in most cases work better then drugs.

So in the end... once you start taking their drugs... they have you for the rest of your life...

That is just one of many examples...

As to some of the other stuff.... If you have studies history then you would know that the same type of "tell us what your neighbor is up to" stuff has happened at some of the worst times in out history. Here I go again... Like in Germany, Russia, and China, this tactic has been used over and over again.

Yea I know it looks innocent enough on the surface, but it is a slippery slope that can easily be used keep an eye those of us that don't toe the line.

And as far as who you think is behind the disruptions at the town hall meetings... I doubt that it is backed by Big pharma or the insurance companies...

First off most of these guys are from groups like "We are Change" and the waking Liberty and Truth movements here in the states. I know a lot of the leadership there, and they are just as much against Big Pharma and the insurance companies as they are at what they perceive to be take over of this country by the Bankers and other foreign interests.

I'm not sure I go quite that far yet... but I have to say they have a lot of Compelling evidence.

Josh

hudson9

Aug 7, 2009, 4:50 PM

... who you think is behind the disruptions at the town hall meetings... I doubt that it is backed by Big pharma or the insurance companies...

??

Why do you doubt it? Who has a bigger motive for the status quo than the pharma and insurance companies?

"Americans for Prosperity" -- a group that is busing people around the country to these town hall meetings. Amy Menefee, communications director of Americans for Prosperity until recently worked for the medical device/pharmaceutical industry-funded "think-tank" the Galen Institute.

...this is just the tip of the iceberg.

AHIP, the trade group and lobbying juggernaut representing the health insurance industry is sending staffers to monitor town halls.

FreedomWorks, run by lobbyist (and former Rep. House Majority Leader) Dick Armey authored a talking points memo and the strategy for the Town Hall meetings. FreedomWorks board of directors includes Richard J Stephenson, an executive of Cancer Treatment Centers of America.

12voltman59

Aug 7, 2009, 5:49 PM

Joshua--I don't think its a coincidence that the majority of the highly disruptive town hall meetings are taking place in the Congressal districts of Democratic Representatives that barely won their current seats and have a high degree of probability they could get booted in the 2010 mid-term election cycle----they are being well targeted in those sorts of districts for the most part----for those Democrats who are holding their town halls in districts they have an nearly uncontested lock on---they are not finding the disruptions taking place---sounds fishy to me!!

As it happens---I have some work going on at my place-the son of the man who is doing the work--lives full time in Germany but he is back here spending some time with his family and doing some work with his dad while here.

He and his wife are self-employed over there--between them--they pay $300 per year for their privately offered health care---and he says that he gets most preventitve health care and major catastrophic things covered FOR FREE and he recenlty had all of his old mercury/almagam fillings removed in a process that took about a year to finish--FOR FREE--he needed a crown and cap for one of his teeth--he coulda gotten a standard porcelean/plastic one FOR FREE---but they offered him the best option----a crown made of a Titanium/Chromium alloy combination--COST: $300!!!!!

It is a private plan--but they do have a hybrid system in Germany and he says Germans love the care they get.

12voltman59

Aug 7, 2009, 5:54 PM

12voltman59

Aug 8, 2009, 9:58 AM

Saw this on a video played on one of the "lefty" talking heads shows last night on MSNBC---at at least one of those town hall events, a bitching out of the Congressman was lead by a middle aged white guy wearing a black polo shirt--spouting off all the crazy crap---the person taking the video focused in on one of the guy's shirt sleeves---there on his sleeve plain as day was the logo of Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

Ohh noooo--no relation at all between these protests and the insurance companies---none at all--it's just "real Americans concerned about their health care!!'' Yeah, Right!!!

JoshuaGlynn

Aug 8, 2009, 2:41 PM

The Problem Voltman is that you are lumping all of these protesters into having insurance and Pharma behind them...

I can only speak from 1st hand conversations I have had from a few of the folks that have went to these things. And I can tell you there are a lot of Americans that dot not want Socialized Health care. Not to mention the Debt it is going to plunge this country into... The Liberty movement and the Truth movement have had a lot of folks going to these to protest, and as I have said before, they are no friends of insurance or Pharma.

Are the Insurance guys taking advantage of the situation... sure they are, why not... and I'm sure they have organized some folks to also go to some of these meetings as well... But to blanket all of the protectors as working for them that is just crazy.

and to say that these are only taking place in the Congressal districts of Democratic Representatives that barely won their current seats... I think if you go back and actually look at the statistics of this... it has more to do with the fact that these are the main representatives that are even holding these town hall meetings than that they are being targeted.

It is like there are 10 meetings, 8 of those are in closely won Dem. areas... all of them have protesters, but since there are more happening in the close areas.. they must be targeted!!! (yes I know there was more then 10...)

All of the Meetings are having protesters show up. Do I agree with some of the ways they are being handled... no. I think it is one thing to protest, it is another to be overbearing about it. Passions can get people yelling at one another, and then no one is listening...

Now I'm not talking about the ones that turned violent, from 1st hand accounts I have heard, a good many of these that turned violent from the organizers security getting rough with the protesters. Not the other way around...

I'm not saying that at some locations that the situation was not reversed, but my point is that you cannot lump all of the protesters into working for Pharma and insurance.

... anyway,

I don't know that I am going to post to this tread anymore... I have tried to get across my point of view... but alas... I'm much better ate writing Romance and Sex then I am at writing point / counter-point style debate...

I know you guys have most likely glossed over my posts because of how ridiculous they sound... even though, especially in the last few posts I linked to a few examples. I used to think the same until I started digging for myself and connecting dots a few years ago. Now I don't believe anything I hear on the major new networks until I can research it from independent sources...

There really is a battle for your mind out there... and if you are only getting your news from the likes of NBC ABC CBS FOX CNN Yahoo... then you are only getting what they want you to hear...

I would still highly recommend that you give a serious look at the Obama Deception that I posted earlier. Find out who Obama and Bush are working for and why things are coming to a head...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

I now return you to your regularly scheduled Bisexual discussion... Already in progress...

Joshua

bimwmdecatur

Aug 8, 2009, 5:24 PM

Just a couple of civil thoughts.

Obama took more time to decide what kind of dog to get for the family than the time he wants to spend on getting any health care modifications done the right way. In other words he thinks more of his family dog than he does the 350 million other people in this country. Somehow I would think that is not the way we would want our President to act.

If one was going to remodel his or her kitchen, he or she would not burn the entire house down to do it. Leave the rest of the house alone and remodel the kitchen. I am sure that our health care system could use some tinkering, but by far leave what we have ALONE.

If they have to add something to take care of the 15 million or so people who supposedly cannot afford health care then do something for those people, but leave everything else alone. And the 20 million or so people who can afford health care but choose to not pay for it are on their own. That would leave about another 20 million illegals who might think about going home and coming back the right way.

Do you know that if the current bill passes, all insurance companies who issue health care policies will not be able to issue new ones in the year 2013? That means without new customers they will go out of business. Nifty way to get to a one payer system, which is what Obama wants.

I know that was more than a couple, but if I don't get off of here now I could write a book. Sorry for the rant.

By the way I am a registered Democrat, not a member of the mob, nor a member of the nazi party nor do I carry a swastika around with me.

hudson9

Aug 8, 2009, 7:36 PM

TaylorMade

Aug 8, 2009, 8:16 PM

Libertarian Party to Dems. . . call off the thugs (http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/libertarians-to-democrats-call-off-the-thugs)

It's not all one sided, you know....

WASHINGTON -- America’s third largest party Friday called on Democrats to end what appears to be a budding campaign of union violence targeted at citizens who differ with the White House at town hall meetings across the country. Libertarians oppose not only the White House’s plans for government-run medicine, but the use of violence to achieve political or social goals.

A Tampa Bay Tribune story and a video posted to the Drudge Report both report physical assaults on dissenting citizens by union organizers brought to meetings by Democrats. In Tampa, union organizers blocked citizens who differed with the White House from entering a public town hall with Rep. Kathy Castor (D-FL,) and allegedly scuffled with some of them. A video posted to YouTube appears to show union organizers physically attacking citizens who disagreed with the White House.

*Taylor*

TaylorMade

Aug 8, 2009, 8:21 PM

Jasper --

If you are "older", I assume you have Medicare. If so, NOTHING WILL CHANGE FOR YOU. Medicare (a government run program) will remain exactly as it is today. If anyone has told you anything else, they are uninformed, misinformed, misrepresenting, or outright lying. If they quote you from a paragraph in "the bill" -- please read the REST of the paragraph, and/or the paragraphs immediately before/after that one for the correct context.

Like the footnotes in an Ann Coulter book, there are a lot of examples being "quoted" that are misrepresentations, distortions, or patently false.

Or you can just forward him to the white house, they'll set him straight...lol..

But, yeah, the bill can be found here-------------->Link (http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf) (PDF Warning, ya'll)

*Taylor*

Falke

Aug 8, 2009, 10:12 PM

On reading the last ten posts, I had quite a laugh. This just backed up with some other propagandist sites *Eg: Moveon* who claimed the meeting breakers were a far right conspiracy. All I can say is that this is laughable, as almost all I know are against the current health plans. Further, said people are for the most part centrists, and many have gone out in protest of various things done. *Eg: the recent tea parties* Also, the reason that Democrats are the ones being targeted is simply because they are the party who wants to cram it down our throats. In short, there is no conspiracy...only alot of pissed off people.

As far as the bills themselves... There are some good things that could come of it, but this is government so I have no doubt that whatever happens they will fuck it up.

Falke

Aug 8, 2009, 11:30 PM

Yes the government will fuck it up.

Politicians get excellent healthcare and for all of us Plebs we'll just get a few crumbs and even paying for private insurance is better than government run insurance.

I'm on Medicare and even that is no picnic or barrel of fun and it's expensive.

As far as politicans go you can't even trust Democrats since they want to spend all of your money and gladly will even without asking you like Obama has been doing and will continue to do.

Obama's administration can't even run simple programs so why should we as Americans trust them to run our health care?

Sorry I don't want Obama or the current government running my healthcare or having lots of power to run other people's healthcare.

I have been on some government help due to the economy for a year. Granted it's not any health care, but I can say that I would take anything but this jumbled bureaucratic mess that I was unfortunate enough to end up in.

Speaking on that, lady Z showed me a poll on facebook recently asking people if they wanting a government run health care system.

Well, the results do speak for themselves...and let's face it, facebook isn't a extremist right-wing hangout. If you have facebook, take a look at popular polls, it will be in the top 5 polls *It's number one now*

For those not on facebook, the current results are:

Yes for government healthcare: 23,516 or 18.62 %
No for government healthcare: 99,852 or 79.05 %
Maybe for government healthcare: 3,145 or 2.49 %

But hey, I guess it's all those damned right wing extremists that are causing the problems. :rolleyes: