Urgh, I'm so outraged!

[eyelinerprincess]

I was working at the hospital this morning, doing my radio show as I usually do on a Sunday, when I decided to turn on the TV without sound to check the teletext. I turned it to BBC1 (a publicly funded channel no less) and what do I see, but a bunch of bible bashers claiming they can cure homosexuality and it's a sin and blah blah blah, you all know the arguments.

THEN they parade this poor soul who's claiming that psychologists (see brainwashers) have cured him, and he used to be gay but now he's marrying a woman and doesn't have any gay thoughts at all. My gay friend Kevin said he hoped that one day the now-straight guy would relapse and implode.

And as if that wasn't bad enough, the segment ended and up pops the presenter to urge us to discuss it on the website or call in or whatever with the words: "Gay, straight or just confused? Discuss it on...." then he gives the info.

I'm sorry, but does that mean I'm "just confused"? Does it mean the whole bisexual and transgendered society is "just confused"? That there's only one or the other, no inbetween? That suddenly the Kinsey scale doesn't exist and you can either be gay or straight, and there's no in-between?

Urgh, I am so outraged at that show, I may have to email and complain about it.

(btw if you're in the UK you can watch the whole sorry thing on iplayer: http://bbc.co.uk/i/lljx3/)

[codybear3]

Ya, the link will play only in the UK... But imagine if those "bible bashers" were giving the permission to "cure" us? :eek::paw::paw:

[eyelinerprincess]

I know. What if I went on a TV show and said "Hey, I'm gonna cure Christianity by using therapy"? Everyone would laugh!

[codybear3]

I know. What if I went on a TV show and said "Hey, I'm gonna cure Christianity by using therapy"? Everyone would laugh!

To quote an old saying.. "They'd nail you to the cross..." Live and let live, methinks, but you know there are those that will do anything to make you see things thier way... Makes them very dangerous.... :paw::paw:

[M. Wolfe]

LOL, the difference is that people CAN be cured of Christianity. I de-converted and so did a few of my friends and thank god for that. I don't think I'd ever have the strength to be open about my bisexuality as a christian.

But the religious nuts will be saying this till the end of time and their pawns will be saying they were cured because..... THEY HAVE TOO. One of the themes of Christianity, though not always spoken, is that homosexuality is an abomination, even when it's only partial like us. All of the anti-gay stuff comes from Leviticus which is a hilarious book that also says to stone adulterers and children whom disobey their parents- and that shellfish is not to be eaten.

Christians are pretty good at overlooking reality in favour of a fantasy, if this were not so then they would take the time to open a book, or at least go on wikipedia, and see that homosexuality & bisexuality is common throughout the animal kingdom, making it a natural attribute. Something that is natural, by definition, cannot be an abomination and therefore their precious book has to be wrong, but they can't accept that, so they say it's unnatural (conveniently ignoring nature) and that it can be cured.

[let_em_eat_cock]

You are right to be outraged, eyelinerprincess.

The BBC has some pretty fine material, often lots of positive stuff about bi, gay, transgendered people and so forth but, since it's publicly funded, it has to be seen to be even-handed and give the other side a shot.

Since the other side is completely incapable of contributing anything sensible (to the debate, life the universe, whatever) we can generally rely upon its members to show themselves up to be a laughing stock.

The problem is that being shown in "the god-spot", some sort of validity is conferred upon this particular programme, which can be detrimental to youngsters coming to terms with their sexuality. I find it irresponsible of the BBC to show this without some sort of disclaimer similar to one which might be provided during a programme about homoeopathy: i.e. there is absolutely no empirical evidence that this can work and the claims of its proponents run counter to the laws of science.

[12voltman59]

The big problem I find when one starts looking to the Bible on what is right and wrong and on ways to live---you really cannot "cherry pick" the things you think are important---it seems to me that if you really deep down in your heart of hearts believe the Bible is the end all and be all of human existence--you either have to "Go all in" or not at all-----

I was thiking the other day--if you are really a true Bible believer---you would have to go back and foresake all modern conveniences and technology---since so many Bible thumpers get that warm glowing feeling inside for the ways folks lived in the Bible days----since they think those were the best of times and that in those days-God gave "man" all he needed to live---all the things we have developed since then cannot possibly be good----and since most of what has been developed since those days like cars, electricity, modern medicine, airplanes and whatever else ya care to choose have been condemed by some religious sects, the self-appointed leaders of faith and the like as being bad and evil at some point--maybe they are right and for those who want to really live a "Biblical life"--I say we should let them have some land over the places of the Bible and those folks can go Bible 110%---they don't belong in the modern world as far as I am concerned anyhow!!!!:bigrin::bigrin:;);)

And sorry folks---when you fight your wars that you so much seem to love--ya can't have gunpowder or guns (they were made by those non-Christian/non-Jewish/non-Muslim Chinese folks who had a great society but don't get any mention anywhere in the Bible so they don't count as a worthy people)---you will have to bash each other with your clubs, maybe use spears and bows and arrows---but no modern war fighting stuff!!!

And no modern medcine---since just about 100% of the developement of modern medications was the result of using Darwin's "Theory of Evoloution" and you dumb asses don't belive in that---you can't get the fruits of what that scientific "theory" lead to in terms of advanced medication development!!

I say to those folks---go off someplace and live all Biblical since ya think it so freaking great--and have a wonderful frackin' life while you are at it!!!

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

But, but, I Love shellfish! lol
And sorry..theres just no cure for me. I will not be defined, and be told who and what I can or cannot be. I'm me and this is the end product. If society looks down on me for being Bi-Sexual, then f em. lol
Hard cased, shell food gobblin Cat :bigrin:

[Gay2Bi]

The big problem I find when one starts looking to the Bible on what is right and wrong and on ways to live---you really cannot "cherry pick" the things you think are important---it seems to me that if you really deep down in your heart of hearts believe the Bible is the end all and be all of human existence--you either have to "Go all in" or not at all-----

Check out "The Year of Living Biblically," by A. J. Jacobs, on Amazon. Sadly, he doesn't go in for the "stoning of naughty children" bit - believe me, I wish I could do that one sometimes! :devil: - but at least he does try to avoid mixing linen and wool in the same outfit.

[eyelinerprincess]

Found some interesting reading:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/13/gayrights.religion
http://www.hookang.com/index.php/2008/02/the-master-list-of-sins-in-the-bible/

I wonder how many of these homophobics who use the bible as their argument have ever done any of those...

[FalconAngel]

You are right to be outraged. Seen a ton of videos about this on Youtube. Those idiots will probably never learn that you cannot ignore nature or go against it. It will come back and bite you when you do.

Eventually, they will learn, but not until they have completely ruined all of the credibility that their religion has left.

[Herbwoman39]

Here in the U.S. there was a group, the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) that was touting reparation therapy. A bunch of us LGBT folks gathered outside their annual conference meeting room in Orlando and protested Aaaalllllll day long.

Respectable psychologists have released studies that show that this kind of therapy is HIGHLY dangerous. It can lead to depression, drug and alcohol abuse and suicide. Not to mention divorce. If these supposedly "cured" gay people have children?? So these people are ruining *multiple* lives with this quack therapy.

[boca.openminded]

I know. What if I went on a TV show and said "Hey, I'm gonna cure Christianity by using therapy"? Everyone would laugh!


Thats the funniest thing I ever read. I would back you up on this protest..lol

The first time I ever saw this was watching a "Will & Grace" episode. Being that its a comedy sitcom I thought the whole thing was made up. I (being naive) did not know that these groups really existed. I had a feeling considering come on theres a group for everything nowadays...

I wrote a long reply to this message but wound up deleting it... I just cant stand how religion controls everything and there are more christians therefore they have more say / power / control.

there are so many religions because we believe in what we want to believe!

[SaraSaurus]

I agree that people like that are outrageous. I find it horrific that people can claim to follow Jesus, who taught to love everyone, in one breath and spread hate with the next. However, I'm a little upset by the similar response I see from the LGBT community, even in the replies to this thread. The LGBT community likes to think their all accepting but we can be just as intolerant as others. This is something I've personally had to struggle with being both bi and a Christian. It hurts me to see Christians spreading homophobia and hate but then I come here and have to suffer the harsh words of those who hate Christians.

I just want to take the time to say not all Christians are the same!!! Just because there are some horrible people out there masquerading as Christians doesn't mean everyone who goes to church is like that. I know many who aren't. There are even "friendly" churches that are devoted to the LGBT community. Just like you don't want to be judged by them, please don't judge all of us.

[coyotedude]

I'm regularly confused, but it has nothing to do with being bi... LOL

But seriously, what foolishness! Not that I'm surprised; I've met more than my share of people in my own community who buy into the "homosexuality = disease" myth. But many people have never met an inconvenient fact that they couldn't conveniently ignore. (Well, I suppose most of humanity fits into that definition on some level; but that's another topic for another time.)

Personally, I think bisexuality is a madness to be savored. But then, perhaps I'm biased.

Ciao

[conswala1987]

i watched this yesterday on telly and i could have cried, all the progress in the world and christianity jus keeps pulling us back!!! now im not talking about all christians because i consider myself a beleaver in a higher power, BUT this is discusting and really very insulting to themselves .... if we were created in gods image and then he gave us FREE WILL, then who are these very sad scary people to beleave his work wrong, because if they beleave we are going againced god then well surly thats admiting that god MADE A MISTAKE ? and surly that is impossible i found there remarks deeply offensive !!! but hey what can we do ???
i suppose they are intitaled to there opinion but i dont think they should be allowed to voice said opinions on the telly! if they are allowed then every belief structure should sorry for the rant bt i felt really strongly about this:tong:

[TaylorMade]

Growing up. . .I knew ex-gays. Some were celibate, some ended up marrying. I mean, just as people grew up convinced they were straight and now live as gay, we accept them just the same.

Even the phenomenon of the regretrosexual (http://laist.com/2008/04/25/laist_interview_137.php) or gay till graduation is something considered, while odd, accusations are flown at them, but not entirely malicious though.

As bisexuals. . .knowing that sexuality is so much more complicated than we think... can't we simply accept some one has filtered from gay to straight just as we accept them as straight to gay?

OH, Right... Religion. Religion is evil and therefore can not possibly do anything good for anyone. Once something like the regretrosexual or the phasing from gay to straight involves religion is it automatically bad.

Judgmental gits, the lot of you.

*Taylor*

[coyotedude]

I agree that people need to make their own discoveries and decisions about their own sexuality. It's not my place to judge people who may be gay but who choose to try and live life as straight. It's their choice and their life, not mine.

It's also not my place to force or bully a gay man or lesbian woman to live life as straight. That, I believe, is the central concern of this thread. Being gay or lesbian or bisexual or trans is not a disease. Belief does not necessarily make it so. (And I say this as a person of faith myself, albeit not a Christian.) Unfortunately, there are many individuals and groups of people who think they know more about my sexuality than I do. To me, that is utter foolishness.

In a free society, people have the right to say foolish things. To censor speech that we do not agree with is to invite censorship of our own speech in turn. Yet living in a free society, I have the right and the responsibility to call bullshit when I hear or read it.

Peace

[TaylorMade]

I agree that people need to make their own discoveries and decisions about their own sexuality. It's not my place to judge people who may be gay but who choose to try and live life as straight. It's their choice and their life, not mine.

It's also not my place to force or bully a gay man or lesbian woman to live life as straight. That, I believe, is the central concern of this thread. Being gay or lesbian or bisexual or trans is not a disease. Belief does not necessarily make it so. (And I say this as a person of faith myself, albeit not a Christian.) Unfortunately, there are many individuals and groups of people who think they know more about my sexuality than I do. To me, that is utter foolishness.

In a free society, people have the right to say foolish things. To censor speech that we do not agree with is to invite censorship of our own speech in turn. Yet living in a free society, I have the right and the responsibility to call bullshit when I hear or read it.

Peace

I also believe this. If this is a situation where consent was forcibly taken out of their hands, that's a problem.

But if this is a path someone chooses on their own terms, then let them choose it.

*Taylor*

[M. Wolfe]

I agree that people like that are outrageous. I find it horrific that people can claim to follow Jesus, who taught to love everyone, in one breath and spread hate with the next. However, I'm a little upset by the similar response I see from the LGBT community, even in the replies to this thread.

I am an ex-Christian agnostic. I wonder how it is that you accept your bisexuality and are Christian at the same time. I couldn't do that, it wasn't till after I deconverted that I could managed to face it.

I am generally very critical of Christianity alike with other similar religions and am astonished by how little Christians tend to know about their own religion's history. Are you different?

[NinaBean]

Just putting my :2cents: in here...

Growing up Roman Catholic I knew there was something that I did not understand with all of it. It just came natural to me. There is no way to cure a religion (although funny ass comment lol) Just they way you think and your free will. It changes in time or you may keep your faith.

The issues with "Curing" gay, well thats actually true. But, not in a way you think. Being a psychiatrist major I know the gest of what people may think of "Curing" someone that is a lesbian or who is gay. This is just a bunch of talk with medication. The issue at hand could be very mental and the only way they can say to "cure" it would be with medication. Regardless to who says what..... Some people who are gay may have had a troubled past where being with a certain gender made them more comfortable. With me for instance, I had a hard past and I felt comfort annd joy with my best friends. Being a curious child (which is completely natural) I found a way to "feel" good. That started the whole exploration. Majority of people you hang out with when your younger are the same sex. So it just depends on how you take it. Also depends on your religion and your morale.

Beaing a Psychiatrist (Soon to be but will be there) I feel that the terms "Brain Washer" really isn't the term that I enjoy although I do hear it. With this title it can go two ways, You either love me or hate me. Its kind of the same way with being catholic or "Gay" You either accept it or you don't. There is no fine line. The people who do not like it will fight you till the end. The ones that are accepting (if they are gay or not) will be beside you fighting the nay sayers. I consider myself insightfull but I still get my point across. I would never tell people how to think. I would simply explain to them what may be going on in a term that is more comfortable to them and hope they find there own way to happiness. Thats it. So, in hopes to educate our minds with the opinions of christianity and gay, I hope I explained a thing or two for you to understand. Now its your turn to either get it or not. After all its only an opinion.

[Realist]

What an interesting field!

When I worked for the military, I had a friend who was an Army psychologist. After knowing him for some time, we began to discuss some scenarios that he'd been confronted with, over his career. Of course, no names were given, because of his oath, but I enjoyed his experiences with soldier's personal tribulations...... and their families too. I was amazed that, with proper guidance, a person can find his/her own ways to solve problems.

Of course, there are those who never get results, but many do and go on to live happy, fruitful lives. That must give a huge sense of accomplishment to know you've helped someone better their lives.

[NinaBean]

What an interesting field!

When I worked for the military, I had a friend who was an Army psychologist. After knowing him for some time, we began to discuss some scenarios that he'd been confronted with, over his career. Of course, no names were given, because of his oath, but I enjoyed his experiences with soldier's personal tribulations...... and their families too. I was amazed that, with proper guidance, a person can find his/her own ways to solve problems.

Of course, there are those who never get results, but many do and go on to live happy, fruitful lives. That must give a huge sense of accomplishment to know you've helped someone better their lives.

Exactly, the main purpose (to me at least) Is to give as much information on a subject at hand and hopes that they are going to the direction that makes them happy with. You obviousely can't be there holding there hands through it all. Being a positive guidance is what makes me love what I do (or will be doing lol)

[weskain77]

Wow. I understand why anyone would be upset here. I, personally am not upset whatsoever. I guess I'm just not sensitive to it. I realize that the majority of people don't understand bi feelings, and therefore not stunned when they don't pander to it.

As for the Bible comments- I couldn't be more displeased the animosity and ignorance. Without completely succumbing to the desire to launch my own diatribe, let me ask this: where on earth did that nonsense about modern medicine coming from evolution and people who believe in the Bible have to not use modern things? What an uneducated load of crap. I appreciate a different opinion, but not ones based on childish impressions.

I'm disappointed with the attitudes here.

[mrplayfuluk]

The programme that eyelinerprincess is referring to is an awful programme with an audience of so called experts and general public debating current issues. This episode related to the announcement by The Bishop Of Rochester last week declaring homosexuality was a sin and that gays should change and repent. See here...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/condemnation-for-bishop-who-called-for-gay-people-to-repent-1732755.html


It seems to me that Modern Christianity(in the UK at least) is consistently hypocritical on sexual issues and currently the Catholic Church in Ireland is going through a major crisis with the exposure of sexual abuse in its schools over the last 50 years.

[M. Wolfe]

Christianity is still one of the leading forces of order in the world.
Residual Christianity maybe, but modern Christianity is splintered into thousands upon thousands of variants that the whole thing seems to be rotting. The western world is secular and is becoming more and more secular as days go by -especially England and Northern Europe.


You might want to figure out how to work with them rather than hastily tightening the screws of destruction.
Or not. The people who held my mind hostage as a child of 5 with indoctrination aren't people I will be respecting soon.


Try some Christian Philosophers from a non dualist perspective like Emerson or Meister Eckhart.
... Or not.


A few of my friends and I think Schopenhauer hit the mark with this idea:
Christianity can be salvaged.

How?
By appealing to sensible, logical Christian leaders and not letting our tunnel vision make us only see the extremists. Extremism takes many forms. Even that of the Buddhist :2cents:
When it comes to Christianity and what to appeal to (?) I don't look at the people, I look at the Bible. Appealing to sensible, logical Christian leaders? Have you read Leviticus? The "Sensible and logical" don't stone their children for misbehaving, they conveniently look over that bit and fill in the gaps with philosophy from people like Emerson or Eckhart. At least literalists don't cheery pick parts of the "good news".

"Christianity can be salvaged."
I would ask why, what's the point? Why ought or need it be salvaged?

[M. Wolfe]

It seems to me that Modern Christianity(in the UK at least) is consistently hypocritical on sexual issues and currently the Catholic Church in Ireland is going through a major crisis with the exposure of sexual abuse in its schools over the last 50 years.

It always was. Since Rome converted from polytheism, it's descendant societies and cultures have been some of the most sexually repressed people in the world. So called "progressive" christians just avoid the whole issue and think 'they can do what ever they like and I'll just do what I feel comfortable with...' which is good I guess in a retarded sort of way.

[M. Wolfe]

1. All the more reason for reunification under a banner of rational behavior.
Why? Reunification seems to be more like the begging of Christian leaders who see that the world is leaving them behind. The world is starker, keep up or don't. Science inplace of faith.


2. Externalizing? Not always healthy. These people are still your family, for better or worse, Christian or Not.
They are not my family, they were my Church. And besides my I have no family and she's a deist making all this irrelevant.


3. Why not?
Because I fill my time with more productive reading mostly for my classes.


4. That's just one book of a book that is just a book. Get out there, feed your brain, just don't forget your roots.
But that book that that book is a part of is said to be the inspired (or sometimes said to be the dictated) word of god and is considered an authority. You cannot simply ignore one book w/o apply the same standard to the rest.


5. You don't have to destroy your family to save it. Not all the time, at least.
When did I say I was destroying my family? And what if they'd be better off w/o Christianity? Is it not then my duty to do something for their good (if that's your philosophy)?



I'm a Gnostic Catholic at best. But is that such a bad thing?
Why not infiltrate the Church?
You're smart enough, and wouldn't that make your Elitist God-Brain feel happy?
Sometimes it seems a sporting idea, go in and confront everyone with the Christian Dilemmas. Rattle some cages.


Real change instead of Meaningless symbols- I find it highly intriguing.
What?

[M. Wolfe]

I don't disagree with any of these points. Rather, I'm imploring you to examine human psychology a little further. Individualism can be very screwy without discipline to balance.

Odd that I should find myself doing 200 level psych papers at university.


These things give me balance:
1. Tea. Simple, honest, unassuming.
2. The Holy Trinity: Thrash Metal, Death Metal and Black Metal. Warts and all. One of the finest realizations of structural nihilism in three distinctly strong groups.
3. Meditation. More important than all the fury in your head and heart.
4. Reading. Popular and Discredited works.
5. Working on Machinery. My zen-time away from zen time.
6. My Formerly Feral Cat, Roxy. Might name the next one Devi.
7. Talking to folks like yourself, wherever you find yourselves.

Good luck.

1. Tea is not simple when you see who many variants there are.
2. Modern Rock, Hard Rock & Electro (hence my love of Linkin Park)
3. Walking several hours a day pondering the cosmos.
4. Science and general non-fiction.
5. Computers (..... [sigh] and decorating, my guilty pleasure)
6. Dog, Allie.
7. Talking to narrow minded idiots (not always religious) just to scare them.