Does anyone share these thoughts on bisexuality? [Archive]

PeterH

Feb 10, 2006, 3:06 PM

I would like to share some thought on bisexuality which are very important to me and therefore would be very happy to get feedback on.

I share the need so many people on this site who do not want to be put in a box that doesn't fit them, or be defined by a word that doesn't suit them, or being forced into a relationship that would not make them happy. My solution was to invent some new boxes that do suit me, have some new thoughts that do describe me and find a type of relationship that would make me happy. I hope that my ideas make you happier too, or at least give you food for thought.

I would like to start the discussion by telling a personal story about my coming out, because thesee thoughts have everything to do with my decision to come out.
I became aware of my bisexuality very late in life, because I always knew I wasn't gay, I had been in love with girls too often.
I only started to realize that I was bisexual 8 years, when I had a first serious relationship with a girlfriend. I found out because that relationship was so similar to some intimate friendships i'd had with men.
That relationship ended quickly and I have stayed silent about it and why should I? I have romantic and conservative views about morals, i love women, I love children. So why shouldn't I find a nice girl, get married, and have some kids with her?
Ok, i feel attracted to men, but being in a relationship with a man would definitely be less gratifying emotionally, since two men can't have children (though it's possible to adopt in our country). So my bisexuality, my ability to be attracted to people of both sexes, was not that relevant.
So I stayed in the closet. Then I started telling people that I thought I might be bisexual but didn't really know for sure, and I still thought it didn't really matter that much, until just recently.
And I started to feel that it's not important what I feel, but what I want. And for this, the term bisexual is completely inadequate to describe me. So I invented (re-invented?) the term biamorous:
1) bi's are biamorous, have the desire to be in a relationship with people of two sexes.

More importantly, I don't want to be half-celibate. I want to be in a relationship with people of two sexes At The Same Time. I would feel more complete that way. And this started to lead me to a second conclusion, especially knowing that bisexuals are not that fully accepted in either the gay or the hetero community, after reading how often monosexuals have problems with the bi identity of their bi partners. And to be frank, i do not feel part gay and part straight, I feel 100% bi and feel that I would not really fit in in either culture. That's one of the reasons why like this site so much and i get the impression that this might be true for most bi's so my idea is that:
2) bi's are not part straight and part gay, they're not monosexual, they're bi?

I think this conclusion has repercussions on relationship and my feeling is that:
3) Bi's do not match well with mono's, or phrased postively:
bi's match best with other bi's.?

I feel that other bi's are the only ones that one can expect to understand how one feels and i think this is an importnat part of a bi relationship. This led me to the decision that I wanted to be in a relationship with a bi man and a bi woman.
Added to this decision is the desire to be in a lasting relationship, to live together, to be married (if possible) and obviously to have a fair deal for all. The fair deal of course would mean that my partners also get to have a female partner (I'm not too sure that I would be keen on 'sharing' my girlfriend with my boyfriend). In the ideal case this would be one person whpo both my partners feel attracted to. So four people in total are required to make up the match. This is my next conclusion:
4) The ideal bi relationship is a MMFF foursome,
I would like to use the term 'fair and square relationship' for this, or, when all live together, a bisexual family
When I came out to some friends yesterday, one of them told me that she'd read that there is such a bi family in my country (netherlands), who apparently have made several legal arrangements to work this out. Hurray!!!!!
So it seems that my ideal is possible in some sense, though I sure would like it if it were possible have a proper legal form created for it, preferably a marriage. The aadvantages of this would be numerous: I could be faithful to my family and not hurt them. Because this relationship allows for being faithful, I can morally defend my desires. And because the desires can be defended morally, there is a chance that, with time, society would start to accept bisexuality as just an alternative to being monosexual and i might some day be able to get married to my future loved ones (I'm single now).
Am I alone in thinking and wanting all this???? I would be very interested in your ideas.

To facilitate a discussion, I have several questions:
- are you biamorous?
- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?
- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?
- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you
- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

I eagerly look forward to your replies.

PeterH

Darkwing

Feb 10, 2006, 3:50 PM

Well, yes. I have to say I am biamourous....simply saying I have a straight side and a gay side just doesn't seem to cut it somehow. I can love and appreciate and cohabit with either of the 2 (main) sexes equally well. I don't favour one over the other either. I have had relationships with straight people, and I have a number of friends, both man and woman, who are gay. There have been some issues regarding the genders for example when I was with a gay man, and wanted to see a woman. and vice versa. Those relationships I have had with other bi's seem to have worked very well. I think that because other bi's have a grasp on the issue of being attracted to men and women, there was less pressure, less jealousy of the "other" person, and a greater acceptance of what I feel. I am now in a new relationship with a bisexual girl, who loves the fact that I am bi, and indeed loves to watch when I'm with another man. So far, her acceptance and willingness to share has made a huge difference. Iknow thats only a couple of the questions you posed, but hopefully its a good start :2cents:

meteast chick

Feb 10, 2006, 4:06 PM

I am a happily married woman who happens to consider herself bicurious. Biamorous seems like a wonderful term, one that I would gladly claim. Personally, I don't advertise my sexuality, so I don't really feel the overwhelming neccesity to define myself one way or another. I could understand how bi's would cohabitate best with other bi's, but I think as long as your partner is open, whether bi or straight, it will be to the same effect. It seems to me that you're not as worried about getting along with the person or being in love with the person, but more concerned about the status of your bedtime routine. Whilst that should play a very important of a relationship, it shouldn't define it. A 'fair and square' relationship...in this case you're not talking about biamory, you're talking about polyamory. In this country, poligamy is illegal. If it works for you and yours, so be it. I am in love with one and one only, and even if I were to 'stray', that wouldn't mean I would love him any less. I can't advocate poligamy, nor will I, but I say whatever peels your banana, Peter.

I truly believe, as previously said, that our sexuality shouldn't ultimately define us, but the way our heart goes is a whole different scenario.

anne27

Feb 10, 2006, 10:20 PM

You certainly put out a lot to think about.

1-yes, I am biamorous. I have sucessfully carried on relationships with men and woman at the same time and it worked very well on my end.

2-I am not 'part' anything. I am wholy who I am. I've spent the last 2 1/2 years defining myself in my head and in my life and it's still hard to articulate in words just 'what' I am. I just am.

3-I am married to a bi guy and it works out very well for us. Funny thing, we are not attracted to the same type of people in either sex. It is very satisifying though, to know he knows exactly how I feel about my sexuality and we understand each other much better now that we are both open about it.

4-In a perfect world, a quad group would be ideal. In this world, I am afraid it would be frought with difficulties. It would take extroidinary people to make it work long term.

Sparks

Feb 10, 2006, 11:19 PM

For me, I rellay don't like the term bisexual. We are either Gay, Lezbian, or, have homosexual tendencies. Gay and Lez relationships imply a love realtionship, much like the hetero community.

Bisexuality, on the other hand is quit different. Yes there is the homosexual feelings, and we act on them within our comfort zone. We, nevertheless, prefer the comfort of a hetro relationship. This is to say that our hearts belong to the oppiste sex.

Having homosexual feelings is not wrong. It's an expression of who we are, in or out of the closet. It's my wish that society at large could accept male bisexuality as much as they do women having relations with another woman. :2cents:

I would like to share some thought on bisexuality which are very important to me and therefore would be very happy to get feedback on.

I share the need so many people on this site who do not want to be put in a box that doesn't fit them, or be defined by a word that doesn't suit them, or being forced into a relationship that would not make them happy. My solution was to invent some new boxes that do suit me, have some new thoughts that do describe me and find a type of relationship that would make me happy. I hope that my ideas make you happier too, or at least give you food for thought.

I would like to start the discussion by telling a personal story about my coming out, because thesee thoughts have everything to do with my decision to come out.
I became aware of my bisexuality very late in life, because I always knew I wasn't gay, I had been in love with girls too often.
I only started to realize that I was bisexual 8 years, when I had a first serious relationship with a girlfriend. I found out because that relationship was so similar to some intimate friendships i'd had with men.
That relationship ended quickly and I have stayed silent about it and why should I? I have romantic and conservative views about morals, i love women, I love children. So why shouldn't I find a nice girl, get married, and have some kids with her?
Ok, i feel attracted to men, but being in a relationship with a man would definitely be less gratifying emotionally, since two men can't have children (though it's possible to adopt in our country). So my bisexuality, my ability to be attracted to people of both sexes, was not that relevant.
So I stayed in the closet. Then I started telling people that I thought I might be bisexual but didn't really know for sure, and I still thought it didn't really matter that much, until just recently.
And I started to feel that it's not important what I feel, but what I want. And for this, the term bisexual is completely inadequate to describe me. So I invented (re-invented?) the term biamorous:
1) bi's are biamorous, have the desire to be in a relationship with people of two sexes.

More importantly, I don't want to be half-celibate. I want to be in a relationship with people of two sexes At The Same Time. I would feel more complete that way. And this started to lead me to a second conclusion, especially knowing that bisexuals are not that fully accepted in either the gay or the hetero community, after reading how often monosexuals have problems with the bi identity of their bi partners. And to be frank, i do not feel part gay and part straight, I feel 100% bi and feel that I would not really fit in in either culture. That's one of the reasons why like this site so much and i get the impression that this might be true for most bi's so my idea is that:
2) bi's are not part straight and part gay, they're not monosexual, they're bi?

I think this conclusion has repercussions on relationship and my feeling is that:
3) Bi's do not match well with mono's, or phrased postively:
bi's match best with other bi's.?

I feel that other bi's are the only ones that one can expect to understand how one feels and i think this is an importnat part of a bi relationship. This led me to the decision that I wanted to be in a relationship with a bi man and a bi woman.
Added to this decision is the desire to be in a lasting relationship, to live together, to be married (if possible) and obviously to have a fair deal for all. The fair deal of course would mean that my partners also get to have a female partner (I'm not too sure that I would be keen on 'sharing' my girlfriend with my boyfriend). In the ideal case this would be one person whpo both my partners feel attracted to. So four people in total are required to make up the match. This is my next conclusion:
4) The ideal bi relationship is a MMFF foursome,
I would like to use the term 'fair and square relationship' for this, or, when all live together, a bisexual family
When I came out to some friends yesterday, one of them told me that she'd read that there is such a bi family in my country (netherlands), who apparently have made several legal arrangements to work this out. Hurray!!!!!
So it seems that my ideal is possible in some sense, though I sure would like it if it were possible have a proper legal form created for it, preferably a marriage. The aadvantages of this would be numerous: I could be faithful to my family and not hurt them. Because this relationship allows for being faithful, I can morally defend my desires. And because the desires can be defended morally, there is a chance that, with time, society would start to accept bisexuality as just an alternative to being monosexual and i might some day be able to get married to my future loved ones (I'm single now).
Am I alone in thinking and wanting all this???? I would be very interested in your ideas.

To facilitate a discussion, I have several questions:
- are you biamorous?
- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?
- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?
- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you
- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

I eagerly look forward to your replies.

PeterH

Lisa (va)

Feb 11, 2006, 12:11 AM

Interesting ideas. First off let me say this is my personal opinions only, not saying what is right or wrong.

1. by you definition I an not biamorous, i have loved (or thought I did) both men and women in my lifetime, but I also tend to be monogamous. I focus my attentions on the person and not their genitals (everyone has them), a persons gender shouldn't (and doesn't for me) alter the feeling towards them.

2. I also don't feel a person's sexual orientation in anyway defines the total person, guess you may say when I was with a woman I was a lesbian, likewise hetero when I dated a man, so be it love is blind to labels.

3. Maybe a 'bi' person can understand other bi folks better than "straight" folks, but then you have to take into consideration the individuals and see how they classify themselves according to the standard labeling system, All bi's are not the same,

4. A MMFF marriage. Had talked about this long ago with a good and very wise friend. Although it sounds marvelous in theory I think it would be about as easy to find the needle in the haystack. It's hard enough to get two people together that are truely in love, and married: then coumpounding that 4 fold where all 4 are on equal footing - a long shot, but admittedly a nice ideal.

5. As far as stability, doubtful, but as everything else depends on the individuals. Personal experiences, well they are personal, lol.

Lisa
hugs n kisses

binbi42

Feb 11, 2006, 6:01 AM

To facilitate a discussion, I have several questions:
- are you biamorous?
- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?
- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?
- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you
- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

-are you biamorous?

By your definition of biamorous, the desire of being in a relationship with people of two sexes I think would fit in some cases. The problem I see with the definition is that it doesn’t specify the nature of the relationship. There are many relationships where biamorous might be applicable by this definition. If someone has a “relationship” with their Mother and Father, or brother and sister wouldn’t they be by your definition “biamorous”?
If what your saying is the desire to be in a sexual relationship with both a man and a woman. Then I think “bisexual” seems more applicable. I don’t think the being bisexual is less superficial because of the sexual connotation than biamorous. Many bisexual relationships are just as intense as straight or gay relationships with “love” ”amor” being the heart and soul of the relationship.
I would also have to disagree Peter that” being in a relationship with a man would be less gratifying emotionally, since two men can’t have children.” I would venture to say that there are some who come to this site that already have children and perhaps some that don’t, that may beg to differ on this issue. I have children and am very much in love with my wife, but I wouldn’t go as far to say that if the right male came along in my life that my emotional gratification would be any less. It would be different as one might expect, and perhaps my commitment would be stronger to the mother of my children ,but no less gratifying on an emotional level. I guess what I’m saying is that the ability to have children with someone I was in love with would not be the sole criteria for determining my emotional gratification.

- Do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?

If I have to be categorized or labeled by sexual orientation then by current definitions Bisexual works for me. I am not defined by my sexuality. My sexuality is defined in the way I choose to express it. My spirit knows no gender but recognizes the body it inhabits at the moment. It is my spirit and those that guide my path that defines who I am.

- do you agree that bi’s match best with bi’s?

Based on my personal experience I’d say yes. My wife and I are both bi. It is the third marriage for both of us and we have been together for about 9 years. There is a level of openness, honesty, acceptance, and understanding that exists between us that never existed in any relationship prior to this one. There are several reasons why this is so. Not being ashamed or having to hide our true sexual natures has that added enhancement in the overall picture.

Do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you?
Do you have experiences and do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

I like the concept and we’ve often thought that to find another bi couple that we could establish a relationship with that would include all of the good things that relationships have to offer would be like a dream come true. We have relationships/friendships with other bi couples and love the time we spend together.
As to the the level that you’re seeking. I think it would be complex and a lot of work to maintain for all parties involved. I have lived in communal households before during the 60’s and 70’s the “free-love era”. We are human, and someone leaving an empty milk carton in the refrigerator can bring even the most utopian dreamer into reality check real fast LOL..but I do wish you safe journey in pursuing your dream. :)

A&J

PeterH

Feb 14, 2006, 7:09 PM

Hi everybody,

thank you so much for taking the time to think about and reply to my post. Your contributions were great. Some of you have confirmed some of my ideas, and some of you have given me some serious food for thought and meteastchick made me seriously reconsider my ideas.
I would like to go into the various issues that you've raised below.
Meteast, I'll deal with your comments last because my reply had to be so long (sorry about that!).
So here goes:

I'd like to clear up some misunderstandings first:

Definitions

Many of you feel that your sexuality does not define you. I don't think my sexuality defines me either. I'm also a son, brother, friend, scientist, amateur composer, - pianist, - singer, etc. What I'm trying to do here is to define my romantic emotions and desires find a good way to express these and the thread was one of the ways of doing just that.

Binbi42, I agree that my definition was vague in specifying the nature of the relationship, I should have included something like intimate relationship, or romantic relationship.

Lisa, meteastchick,
I'm really sorry to hear that you I thinking that the discussion i started was mainly about sexual relationships, it definitely is not. I am trying to discuss the relationship ideals and morals of people who feel biamorous. Of course these feelings include sexual desires, and a discussion of these relations would have to include a discussion of sex as well, but that's not all of it. In my reply to meteast chick, I'm also discussing what makes people feel romantic in intimate relationships and you will find that I excluded a reference to genitals.
I do admit that gender to me does matter and that includes the shape of their genitals, but also the way they behave (see discussion in my reply to meteast) and the fact that I would be able to have a child with a woman, but not with a man.

Binbi42, You say that 'I don’t think the being bisexual is less superficial because of the sexual connotation than biamorous. Many bisexual relationships are just as intense as straight or gay relationships with “love” ”amor” being the heart and soul of the relationship'

Binbi, I assume you mean 'bisexual is more superficial than biamorous', not less. I'm definitely not trying to make bisexual relationships seem less than monosexual relationships, I'm actually trying to say the opposite. That's one of the reasons why I introduce the term biamorous, to indicate that the love includes not only sex, but also amor.
I'm also not saying that being in a man-man relationship is generally less gratifying than being in a man-woman relationship. i'm definitely also not saying that your relationships with men were in anyway less than those with women. I was mentioning a personal preference, stating why I'd choose a heterosexual relationship, if I decided that I had to be monogamous. And that is because I love children so much. But then again, I was willing to give up having children altogether when I was still in a relationship with my ex-girlfriend, who didn't want to have children, so I guess you're right, the wish to have children is not the only reason. But then my thread was really all about finding a way to not have to choose between having a relationship with a man or with a woman, so...
Perhaps I should leave it at that.

Darkwing, Anne27, Lisa, binbi42, thank you for sharing your practical experiences.
From what you tell, I get the impression that those experience confirms my idea that, at least in some ways, a relationship with another bi-person is easier than with someone who is monosexual, because jealousy is not, or less of an issue. I've also had a brief exchange here with partner of someone who is bi and could feel the pain and anguish. It's not something I'd like my mono partner to be saddled up with.
Lisa, i didn't ask you to become that personal, I'm sorry you got that impression.

Sparks and Anne27,
the term straight, lesbian and gay don't seem to describe us well and the term bisexual seems to have its problems as well. I get the feeling that the term biamorous might be a useful term to express oneself. unlike you, Anne27, I only just started to redefine myself in bisexual terms. This goes as far as rethinking some friendships I've had with men, looking at them from a romantic perspective, rather than a friendship one. Do you have any reading suggestions that might help me understand bisexuality, and my own place in it, better? Perhaps it's also be interesting to start a thread on bisexual identity.

Sparks, I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with having homosexual feelings. Actually, I don't think having feelings is ever wrong. Where acting on my feelings towards men is concerned, I've mostly only talked about them. Meteast chick made me reconsider the morals of being bisexual. I just don't know right now whether I would feel it right or wrong to have an intimate relation. I've written some of my thoughts about that in my reply to meteast chick, perhaps you'd like to contribute to that discussion?

About the bi-family idea:
Some of you, especially those who have a bi partner, can see that there is an ideal in that, but at the same time feel it may be frought with difficulties, and I can see why (and it's not just empty milk cartons, either :) )
I have read some stories about experiences of one bi-couple with another bi-couple that gave me an idea that it was a bit like a 'fair and square relationship'.

Well that’s my reply sofar. I’ll put my reply to Meteast chick and some sort of conclusion, in a second post this one is long enough as it is,

Peter

PeterH

Feb 14, 2006, 7:34 PM

It seems to me that you're not as worried about getting along with the person or being in love with the person, but more concerned about the status of your bedtime routine. Whilst that should play a very important of a relationship, it shouldn't define it. A 'fair and square' relationship...in this case you're not talking about biamory, you're talking about polyamory. In this country, poligamy is illegal. If it works for you and yours, so be it. I am in love with one and one only, and even if I were to 'stray', that wouldn't mean I would love him any less. I can't advocate poligamy, nor will I, but I say whatever peels your banana, Peter.
I truly believe, as previously said, that our sexuality shouldn't ultimately define us, but the way our heart goes is a whole different scenario.

Dear Meteast chick,
you definitely do raise some very important issues here, thank you for bringing them forward, you really made me think and rethink my ideas. I've written down my new thoughts below and would be very interested in your comments. I'm glad you raised the moral issue, because for me it's an integral part of the relationship choices I make.
I totally agree with you that one's sexuality shouldn't define one. I would like to say therefore, that the ideas I put forward do not spring from worrying about the status of my bedtime routine. My bedtime routine is the last part I worry about. In fact I believe that if all other parts of a relation are there the bedtime activities follow naturally. My ideas basically spring from a desire to have a lifestyle that fulfills my need for love, romance and family, to live ethically and to justify myself morally. The idea of the bi family is the nearest that I've come to that since I've discovered I'm bi and one of the reasons to put post it here was to see if it can indeed be justified.
You say that they can't and I think you may have a point. What you wrote made me aware that I have not paid enough attention to the way one's heart goes. From what you are saying, I understand that basically you mean to say that one can only give one's heart to one person, not to two people. You may very well be right. I must admit that I have never been in love with two people at the same time. If you are right, I would not be able to morally justify my bi family idea.
So you haven't been in love with two people at the same time, and nor have I, did anyone else? I would like to add to this that we definitely have a norm in society that says that being in love with two people is both impossible and wrong. It is also your opinion that anyting else but a monogamous relationship is wrong and I can fully understand that.
But what if...
What if some people are bisexual by nature, just like some people are homosexual by nature (I assume that you agree with this and that you have no moral objections against monogamous homosexual relationships)?
What does it actually mean that most people are heterosexual, or homosexual, but not bisexual? It means that most people have some specific needs for an intimate relationship that can only be satisfied by a member of one specific gender, not the other gender. Why is this the case, why are most people so gender-specific in their needs? I think it is because the role that one plays in a relationship is gender-specific. Have you ever heard a man complaining that his gf didn't send him a valentines card, or that she never asks him out anymore, or heard him saying 'I wish she'd call'? The examples are numerous. One might say that these are culturally determined gender-roles, but what if they aren't?
So how does this work in my private life. Well, I feel romantic when I buy a girl that I love presents, or write a love poem for her. On the other hand, I quite like a girl asking me out. And currently, I have a friend that I feel attracted to (and he seems to feel attracted to me) and I would like to get to know more intimately, were it not for the fact that he doesn't reveal his feelings much and... he hardly ever calls!
Interesting, isn't it? Perhaps a thread about bi-identities would reveal a bit more about this.

So what follows from this? Well, perhaps nothing, but it might make it a bit more understandable that someone who is not monosexual does not want to be monogamous. Whether this is enough to morally justify the choice to share once life with both a male and a female partner? Perhaps in some cases. I think it's at least worth debating it.
In this context, what do you think of the idea of binogamy: staying faithful to one partner of each sex. this again is a term i made up (or think I did).

BTW: I would still feel it wrong to start a relationship with a second person if one is in a relationship that was started on the presumption of monogamy (which is basically any relationship where people do not tell up front that they're bi and mutually agree that this would be acceptable for both). I actually found out I was bi when I was having a relationship. I told her about that (I don't think that made her happy...), and promised her to be faithful and told her I still wanted her, if she still wanted me. Unfortunately, that relationship ended, I am single now, and I would like to reconsider my position and expectations, before I head into another relationship and not just for my own sake.
And what peels my banana? I only tell that on a need to know basis :)h :bigrin:

Conclusion
So where am I now: I still think that in an ideal world, bi-people would match best with eachother, and I get the impression that in the real world, such relationships often work better than bi-mono matches, and cause less jealousy. I think that having two partners (of different gender!) might be justified morally. More discussion is needed to settle that matter for me. If so, a bi family might be a good place for such a relationship, but I'm very aware of many problems that might arise in such a situation.

Well that's it. Thank you for reading (at least a bit of) it,

:2cents: Peter

huneypot

Feb 14, 2006, 7:58 PM

Bisexuality, on the other hand is quit different. Yes there is the homosexual feelings, and we act on them within our comfort zone. We, nevertheless, prefer the comfort of a hetro relationship. This is to say that our hearts belong to the oppiste sex.

Sparks hun I have to disagree.
I concider myself bisexual although I like the term biamorous, however I am 90% attracted to the same sex and mainly have relationships with women and sexual encounters with men.
My Heart could only truly belong to a women
So im a strange kind of bi I suppose, I dunno????????????????
I concidered myself lezz for many years but then had a relationship with a man so had to reconcider my identity which was very difficult for me as it was bloody hard enuff to come out as a lezz.
The relationship with the man lasted 3 years and we still are best friends and still have sex, but I am not in love with him.Sometimes I wish i were as hes the best man in the world and treats me like a queen, and would marry me in the morning, ah kids and the like, a dream for me, a dream, if only.

This made me "come to terms" as such with the fact that I AM bisexual, as if I were gay then i wouldnt enjoy sex with men as much as I do, and find it as fulfilling as i do.

Actually the more im talking here the bloody more confused im getting myself sheesh, maybe I should start my own thread on this and see what people think as I would like to hear others opinions, so dont be surprised if u see this message pop up in a new thread lol
:tongue:
love to hear some feedback

sam in LA

Feb 14, 2006, 9:17 PM

To piggy-back on huneypot's comments...I too DO NOT agree that bisexuals ultimately 'prefer the comfort of a hetro'.

I am new to this site, but not new to the issue. The quote implies that there is only a sexual aspect to being bisexual. Though the term biamorous sounds a bit creepy and dated to me, such a term may be more accurate and reflects more complexity to what we (and others label) 'BISEXUAL'. So I can certainly relate to Huneypot's perspective (only that it is from the opposite- sex point-of-view).

I have always been uncomfortable with all lables and had decided several years back that if I was lucky to find 'that person', it would not matter the package he/she came in? So now I am in a relationship with a man, and it does not necessary discount or substitute those aspects I had and was attracted to while in a relationship with a woman. I am open (where appropriate) about this and frequently get asked, "Do I prefer men or women"? I smugly reply, "that's like asking me if I prefer apples or oranges". I like them both for different reasons.

For many of us, bisexual is NOT merely a 1-dimensional characterization. And nor is it a about subscribing to a particular lifestyle with all its assumptions. Such things are simply external manifestations and do not reflect what is innate in all of us. I am no more comfortable with a catagorical bisexual lifestyle , than I am with a gay or 'hetro' one. Strip away all that is external and I am -- simply and honestly -- what I am.

So to address the initial question(s) central to this thread, defining oneself and seeking others are nothing short of being individual. Abandon all labels and live life as individual and proud as possible.

SAM

Driver 8

Feb 15, 2006, 7:48 AM

Peter, as always, there's a lot here to think about - but I just wanted to respond to this:

I would like to add to this that we definitely have a norm in society that says that being in love with two people is both impossible and wrong.
If a woman says "I love all five of my kids," we take her word for it - and trying to insist that she loves one more than the rest sounds a little silly. We understand that she has a different relationship with each of them, but we can easily believe that she loves them all equally.

If a widow remarries, we have no trouble believing that she really loved her first husband, and still loves him - even though she loves her second husband, too.

Plenty of polyamorous people have said they love more than one partner at the same time. Why is that so much harder to accept? I don't think it's because no one can be in love with two people at once; I think it has more to do with the powerful myth of monogamy, where every person has one, and only one, person in the world that's right for them, and they magically stop looking at other people once they're together, et cetera.

:2cents:

searchingbrian

Feb 15, 2006, 9:13 AM

I think Driver 8 is right. There are a lot of inconsistencies in ANY label. Therefore, I do not seek nor do I accept any label for my sexuality. It would be like saying all cars are one of the three primary colors, ie., either red (gay), blue (straight), or yellow (bi). Obviously, there are a whole rainbow of colors and each color (person) is a mix of the three (or really probably two sexualities). Why do people feel that a label is even needed. It is more of a hinderance than help. I am who I am. period.

PeterH

Feb 15, 2006, 5:41 PM

Hi Driver 8 and SearchingBrian,

thanks you for posting.
Driver8, like you i don't believe in the myth of monogamy as you describe it either. I think this myth describes the sensation of being in love, when we do seem to focus on one particular person. Psychologists say it's comparable with obsession. I think love is something else.
I think monogamy is a choice, not something that we are by nature. And actually, I'm rather a fan of monogamy, and that's why I was having problems deciding what to do with my bisexuality. I feel morally uncomfortable with polyamory, having multiple partners of both sexes.
My bi-family idea is a compromise. Would it work? I think in the end it has everything to do with a feeling of oneness. People who really love one another feel as one. The bible uses the term (label), to be one flesh, which is a description I really like. It is very nice, this experience of 'being one flesh', this feeling of being one, not being different people anymore. I've had that feeling with only one person in my life, so I couldn't tell if I could have it with more than one person. I'm open to the idea that it's possible, but I'm not convinced yet. What it would take to convince me is to experience it myself, and experience it as good, or to see it in others and trust it is good.

SearchingBrian: I'm not to happy with labels either, but what do you do? I think words are basically all labels. They all have their limits, but what do you do? I do use them and if they do not suit me, I invent new labels.
For bisexuality, I agree that it is not the 3rd option, more like the gray between the black and white of homo- and heterosexuality. It definitely also is a multi-faceted thing. I'd say we need better labels to understand it better. Is the Klein scale any good? I haven't studied it properly yet.

smurf111978

Feb 17, 2006, 5:43 AM

I'm new to the Bi scene and as many of you know yet to have a same sex relationship. However I do feel I have to agree with huney's post about Sparks comments concerning preference for a hetrosexual relationship.

I met a guy about 18 months ago who I instantly fell for physically, emotionally and spiritualy in fact the way I felt for him was stronger than any feeling of attraction Ive had for a man or woman. Indeed it was these feelings that prompted me to come to terms with being Bi sexual. I do feel therefore relationships on an emotional level can be equal for both same and opposite sex partners. As many will know I have often stated in the chat room I want an emotional relationship with a guy as much if not a little more than a sexual one.

OralBradley

Feb 17, 2006, 2:03 PM

To facilitate a discussion, I have several questions:

- are you biamorous?

My emotional attractions have mostly been for women, but my sexual attraction for men--talk about a catch 22!

- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?

It aleast describes an important part of my psyche.

- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?

In that I have been labelled "queer" by the heterosexual and "non-existant byt the gays, the answer must be yes. At the very least another bisexual person can understand my viewpoint.

- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you

If by "square" you mean "open and honest," by all means, but that is true regardless on my sexual leanings.

- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

What does "sth mean???

rumple4skin

Feb 17, 2006, 2:23 PM

I apologize in advance for the long post but feel the questions are very complex.
I am not one for labels and boxes. I believe I am more than the sum of my parts. The label bisexual works for me in the sense that I find both genders attractive. I work with computers but that does not mean I am like everyone else that works with computers. I ride a Harley but that does not mean that I am like everyone else that rides a motorcycle. I was so confused about my sexuality that I was celibate for years. The more I learn about myself the happier I become which is one of the reasons I enjoy this site. I am still working on what being bi means to me. Thanks for the questions Peter.

- are you biamorous?
I have loved and do love people of either gender. So I guess that means I am biamorus. I think that each relationship comes with it’s own set of boundaries. If I want to be in the relationship then I must be willing to sacrifice some of the things that would prevent me from being in that relationship. I do not see sacrifice as a negative thing in this context.

- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?
Yes, I do. I think the whole straight – gay thing is a very recent development in the human condition - say the last 2000 years as opposed to the span that humans have walked the earth. Many older cultures did not but labels on sexuality. So in that regard I am very old-fashioned.

- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?
I think it would be easier for a bi person to understand me being bi but I do not think that means that I would not match with someone who saw themselves as straight or gay. There are probably many bi people out there that I would not “match” with because it is such a small part of what makes us who we are.

- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you
I think a fair and square relationship would have some pros and would also have some cons (like any relationship). Relationships between 2 people require sacrifice to some degree to support the other person. Some of the issues that require sacrifice are small and some are big. Does my partner like to fall a sleep with the tv on or off? What about climate control in the house? How about financial issues? There are so many other issues that go into a relationship that have nothing to do with sex. Maybe someone will see something as a big deal where to me it is trivial and vice versa. The potential for support would seem to increase in a fair and square relationship but so would the potential for discord. It would require that all of the parties involved be willing to be outvoted on things without feeling threatened. It is not impossible but would require a lot of work I think.
- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?
I do not have any experience in a “relationship” that had more than 2 people. I do remember in my late teens having two friends that seemed to always be competing with each other whenever the 3 of us were together. I did not understand it at the time but It came to light that they were both competing for my time and attention. It was a boost to my ego at the time but also made me feel bad that two of my friends were at odds with each other. They are no longer friends ( but not because of anything I did). One of them I have remained very close friends with. The other one has been an on and off friendship. I think that a “relationship” could add to the issues that caused the competition between them. The stability of a fair and square relationship depends on how secure the individuals involved were and how they deal with the issues as they come up. If they are all wiling to adapt to the changes that will occur then it could prove to be very stable.

What matters most in any relationship is open and honest communication. I have probably missed the point here but it has got me thinking. Thanks again Peter I have enjoyed reading yours and other peoples thoughts on this.

Rumple

usedbear1950

Feb 17, 2006, 7:51 PM

Peter,

In romance languages there are two forms of the verb 'to be'. One is transient and the other is a statement of fact. In spanish the verb estar is transient...yo estoy frio...I am cold. That state of being can change by turning up the heat. Whereas...yo soy hombre...I am a man...will not change, it is a statement of irrefutable fact. Unless of course I take drastic measures. I am bi...irrefutable. I am part hetero and part homo and completely neither. I am bi.
Do I fit better with bi's rather than straights or gays...no. I am comfortable with people I like...I don't judge them and expect that they not judge me. I work in a basically straight world. I don't have to wear my sexuality on my forehead and I don't.
If you notice I used the term bi. You can add any suffix you like. I don't, I'm bi.
Searching for an eden like the MMFF grouping you suggest is not for me. I take things as they come along.

Everything I have said above is full of shit to anyone else but me. Each of us brings our own color, our own flavor to who we are. The questions we ask ourselves as bi people are no different that the inner searching we all do to find our place in the world. It is no different for straight or gay people. Recovering alcoholics talk about taking one day at time. As a baseball enthusiast I take one pitch at a time. And if I safely hit three out of ten times I'm a star.

:soapbox: :banghead: :2cents:

Gemini523

Feb 17, 2006, 9:17 PM

Bisexuality, on the other hand is quit different. Yes there is the homosexual feelings, and we act on them within our comfort zone. We, nevertheless, prefer the comfort of a hetro relationship. This is to say that our hearts belong to the opposite sex.

I am with this quote. I am happily married to one of the opposite sex, and my bisexuality is something that we both enjoy. She did get a little nervous when I joined this forum, fearing I would one day leave her for a non-hetero lover. In fact, she has said that if anything ever happened to us, or to her specifically, that she would probably be the last female lover I ever had. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have a side of me that is not a "traditional" heterosexual, but I could never be strictly homosexual either. Labels really don't apply to us, I guess.

Thank you for an outstanding thread to read, with much food for thought.

Garrett Jones

Feb 18, 2006, 9:10 AM

Peter, if you've not seen my ad, I have a free book about bisexuality on my website. I've had more than 40 years of highly satisfying relating to a wife, children and grandchildren ALONGSIDE highly prized relationships with guys, one going back 20 years and still going. I've had lots of casual encounters with guys too (not gals) and would not dream of discounting them either. My wife has never wanted to get involved in my male relationships sexually though she is quite friendly with my to main pals.
Bisexuality certainly need not mean mixed threesomes or moresomes but should surely mean freedom to love both genders - and to do so all the time.
My preference is for non-anal sex with guys since this does not overlap with marital sex but DOES make possible a range of sexual and emotional relating I would miss like hell if I couldn't have it.

Rainbowraven

Feb 18, 2006, 12:34 PM

If I had realized that I was bi before I married, I probably would not have married. Not because I don't love my husband, I most certainly do....more and more every day. I would not have asked anyone to be married to me and then share me. That doesn't seem fair to me.

Our definition of "cheating" is different than most. The only way my husband could "cheat" is if he had sex with someone without talking with me about it first. For us "cheating" has more to do with disrespect than sex. Sexually I could share my husband, but I don't think I could emotionally share him. Which is why I don't think I will ever have a girlfriend. I can not imagine having sex with someone that I don't care about, and I can't imagine caring about someone other than my husband.

I'm here so I don't lose a part of myself.

This thread has certainly given me much to think about.

bigolly

Feb 18, 2006, 2:24 PM

undefinedWhat an indepth post and reading on as i have thank you all for putting into exact words and thoughts that i have beat around in my head for so sooo long!!
why should i be labled and
i am who i am!!
how wonderful!! :)

JohnnyV

Feb 18, 2006, 4:21 PM

anne27

Feb 18, 2006, 9:12 PM

Sparks and Anne27,
the term straight, lesbian and gay don't seem to describe us well and the term bisexual seems to have its problems as well. I get the feeling that the term biamorous might be a useful term to express oneself. unlike you, Anne27, I only just started to redefine myself in bisexual terms. This goes as far as rethinking some friendships I've had with men, looking at them from a romantic perspective, rather than a friendship one. Do you have any reading suggestions that might help me understand bisexuality, and my own place in it, better? Perhaps it's also be interesting to start a thread on bisexual identity.
.............................

About the bi-family idea:
Some of you, especially those who have a bi partner, can see that there is an ideal in that, but at the same time feel it may be frought with difficulties, and I can see why (and it's not just empty milk cartons, either :) )
I have read some stories about experiences of one bi-couple with another bi-couple that gave me an idea that it was a bit like a 'fair and square relationship'.

Peter

Peter, I have picked up one book on bisexuality- 'Vice Versa' by Marjorie Garber. Kudos to anyone who has made it through the whole book. After several tries, I have yet to read it entirely. I have loads of lesbian books. They're much easier to come by at my favorite used book store. They help up to a point, if you overlook the bi bashing inherant in a lot of them. Obviously, a lesbian book would be of limited use to you, but books about gay males may provide some insights. I read everything I find to provide insight into my sexuality, though.

And about bi couples, hubby and I spent some time with another bi couple this past summer. I think if they lived closer (they're in Canada) we'd be extremely close, but even with that, same household wouldn't work. I think it's an ideal fantasy, but just not practical.

Chaia

Feb 20, 2006, 11:38 AM

To facilitate a discussion, I have several questions:
- are you biamorous?
- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?
- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?
- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you
- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

I eagerly look forward to your replies.

PeterH

1. I am hard pressed to remember a time that I have not loved more than one person -- same gender, different gender, whatever. That was something I had trouble understanding. Other people talked about finding their "one, true, love," and I thought that I either didn't understand what love was or they didn't. Now I think that different people love differently. I have a lot of love to share in a lot of different ways and I don't mind if those I love share their love with others (as long as no one feels left out.) I know that other people feel most comfortable and are happiest when they share their love with only one person. (Please don't read "sex" where I wrote "love" -- it could possibly be included, but that is another discussion)

2. Yes, I agree, that being part-gay and part-straight does not adequetely define me. I don't feel straight with a man and lesbian with a woman. I just feel like me with whoever...whomever...?

3. I think that someone who is bi can understand being bi better than someone who is not, but my husband (and many others, I am sure) is very supportive of me and he is very straight. So, as with many other things discussed on this site, I don't think this question can be answered yes or no, but sometimes and maybe.

4. I think your ideal of a MFFM relationship would be wonderful. I have thought the very same thing and was just saying so to my husband last night. Unfortunately, we would have to buy an island and start a new society surrounded by a force field to make it anything but very difficult. Maybe in 100 or 200 years society will have changed enough to allow fluid families. Really, a family with more adults to love the children and take care of them seems like it would be better for everyone. If one parent needs to go on a business trip, there are still 3 left to tend the children. If one parent is busy in a meeting, one of the other 3 can pick the children up from school. But, how do you explain that kind family to the teachers of your children, or the neighbors, or your pediatrician, or the insurance company. There are lots of practical problems with it, but if it were possible, then I would want you to sign me up!

You asked for books--well, these aren't self-help or anything--in fact, they are science fiction, but have you read Robert Heinlein? His later books, not the juvenile sf, present these kind of relationships as a matter of fact. A most well-known one is "Stranger in a Strange Land," but there are others like, "I Will Fear No Evil," "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls," "Time Enough for Love," and "To Sail Beyond the Sunset."

Chaia

ddbmma

May 29, 2006, 6:12 PM

I find being a married male, who can enjoy the comforts provided by a man or woman, is often seen in many a light. Perhaps it is odd, I'll put it out here plain and simple. I'm polyamourous, meaning I can love two or more people, regardless of gender or lack of it. It is nice to be married to an understanding woman that allows openness. Suppose honesty and communication help us greatly.

Let me also quash something else. A woman is not a man no matter how well she dresses up as one, and vise versa. There are times I enjoy the company of a man over a woman and vise versa. This is not degrading to either partner, nor is it replacement of one over the other.

Not sure I could fit into a MMFF relationship. A MFM seems to be what I'd enjoy. Yes, notice I said relationship. Sorry not into one night stands, unless of course your Brad Pitt or Stalone, but that's a different horse altogether. and I'm learning it is not selfish to know and ask for what pleases you.

In summary, I do share some of your views. I still have my own, too. Everyone does I'm sure.

citystyleguy

May 29, 2006, 8:37 PM

before addressing your inquiries directly; bravo!, a most beautiful and expansive description of what bisexuality is to me. i have not seen the basics outlined as well as you have done here; now to the questions!

To facilitate a discussion, I have several questions:

- are you biamorous?

absolutely! you mention in your text that you cannot have the same emotional attachment with a man as you might with a women, and then link this with having children; it is your invention of biamorous that is so stricking. i share with a man the very heart and soul of an emotional bond; that is why i never seek sex with a man or women first, without the emotional depth between two people. this is not limited nor defined by having children; their existence, as to a bond between two people, having children is an entirely different and separate bonding, of whatever type.

when i seek to share emotion and affection with another, the world ceases to exist outside that element, whether for the short period of an intimte hug or shared solace.

- do you share my feeling that being part gay and part straight does not define who you are?

again, a most emphatic yes. i firmly believe and hold the position, that bisexuality is its own state of being; i do not care for the kinsey rating that says i am gay one time and straight another time, nonsense!!! i include my rating as a part of this web site and as best an idicator until another comes along.

as i progress through any day or night, i am watching both men and women, at the same, maybe one more than the other at any given moment and for any variety of reasons; when intimate with one or the other i focus on their distinctions independently, but not mutually exclusive.

- do you agree that bi's match best with bi's?

only to a point; when you share common traits, tastes, or distinctions with others, you have a more in-depth understanding and shared experience level with that other person.

but, where i part ways, is that the statement "...match best..." portion. though i cannot share at the same level with some of different orientation, objective stance, does not perclude having a "...best..." experience.

- do you feel that a fair and square relationship would be most ideal for you

no, cannot say that it would be ideal for me; what must be present, is the understanding of your nature by your partners. a married bisexual must be open and have the acceptance of your nature from your mate; sneaking around wins no rewards! i was married to a straight women and had an intimate relationship with my best friend; neither was interested in the other, both had a frank and enjoyabe relationship as close friends, and both loved me as i did each of them.

- do you have experiences with sth like this and if so, do you think such a relationship could be stable in the long run?

quite possibly such a relationship could work, for myself or others; however, with the depth of the dynamics of such a relationship would seem almost beyond the abilities of four people to maintain.

it is difficult for two people to maintain equalibrium within the relationship; for three, that becomes an added level of complexity, and then four individuals to maintain such highly complex emotions, and physical demands, that would indeed be tremendous work in the very infrequent occasion that these four people can share and support three other people. it would be interesting to witness and/or share; i wish the foursome in your country all the blessings that the may achieve!

citystyleguy

Lorcan

May 29, 2006, 8:48 PM

I am not part straight and part gay. In fact that's one problem i have with this site... it asks you to define yourself as, for example: mostly straight, more than incidently gay. I would probably change my definition if it said, for example: mostly attracted to the opposite sex, more than incidently attacted to the same sex. (Drew?)

But i couldn't bring myself to say i'm mostly straight. :rolleyes: :bibounce:

And i agree that i only want to date bis, if only to not have to explain myself and deal with the added jealousy you spoke of.

We are poly-friendly, meaning if the right relationship comes along we would gladly partake. But it's hard enough to get a third to join you, let alone a quad, and then make it work. I really don't think it should be your goal to make a quad. You might miss other things along the way.

For me, I rellay don't like the term bisexual. We are either Gay, Lezbian, or, have homosexual tendencies. Gay and Lez relationships imply a love realtionship, much like the hetero community.

Sounds like you're saying Bisexuals don't have love relationships, especially same sex ones. Maybe that's true for you, but it certainly is not true for for a lot of bisexuals.

Long Duck Dong

May 30, 2006, 1:25 AM

lol mmmmm interesting subject

i am not part straight / part gay... and nor am I bi sexual / bi curious or biamorous

so what does that leave me ..... simple, I am mentally and emotional bi personality based and that dictates my actions and deeds sexually and non sexually
now I am not bi polar....that is a form of depression and I do not suffer from depression and not do i suffer from multiple personality disorder.

I am a normal person that has dual emotional / mental personalities within my normal mind and body and it means that i share the aspects of both sexs... my female side desires the contact of the male and my male side desires the contact of the female

it allows me to become outwardly dominant or submissive....but less clearly is my ability to become a partner and confidente of ladies and gentlemen....in such a way that the ladies will often remark that they struggle to recall i am a male... so my mannerism and ways of thinking and talking become so much like a female that they often take me as a lady

its allowed me to walk amongst the LGBT community and *become * any part of it... kinda like a chameleon effect..... and tho i don't lie or protray myself as something i am not....I am able to mimic the mannerisms of any sexuality and develop friendships and bonds in areas that the average male stands no chance

does it make me a fraud ....no...but it does leave people curious as to my sexuality....and my sexuality is based on the dominant emotional / mental side of me at the time... so with any partner i can be straight... and later that night... i can be the submissive gay....and later again.... I can become the neutral bi sexual as the balance shifts in me

my life and sexuality is not defined by who i sleep with.... cos i sleep with my cat more times than i share the bed with a sex partner... and if sexuality is defined by bed partner... then it would make me a non sexually active cat o sexual :tong:

I take partners cos i feel drawn to them.... not cos i feel the need to bed them or be bedded by them... but something in them attacts me and vice versa....and its not bound to their sexuality.......i find eyes most interesting.... and that is the most likely way to become a partner in my bed....