Patriotic Opinion

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I'm probably going to catch hell for this, and it isnt meant to be any kind of political artical...
Cat

Should the U.S. flag be allowed in the workplace?


Posted: May 27, 2009 2:37 PM PDT Updated: May 27, 2009 2:37 PM PDT

ARLINGTON, TX -- A woman was asked to take a U.S. flag out of her office when one of her co-workers complained. Debbie McLucas says she had a husband and son who were both in the military, and a daughter who is currently serving in Iraq. McLucas brought the flag in to show her support for U.S. troops and her family on Memorial Day. Shortly after she put up the flag, McLucas was asked to take it down because one of the other employees felt uncomfortable with it up.

Should McLucas be allowed to keep her flag up? If one person is offended by it, should the company be made to order her to it taken down? It is in Her office and cannot be seen unless someone comes into her office. Its not huge-just a 3x5.

What do you think?

[Lateralus]

I don't see the big deal. As long as she's not making ppl salute it or something..lol

[zman64]

Hell yes it should be displayed, by the company as well as anyone who wants to...it's time those of us who are proud to be called citizens of the u.s be allowed to show their patriotism and those who choose not to quit whining about it. if you don't want to look at my flag, look the other f***ing way.

[Falke]

Hell yes it should be displayed, by the company as well as anyone who wants to...it's time those of us who are proud to be called citizens of the u.s be allowed to show their patriotism and those who choose not to quit whining about it. if you don't want to look at my flag, look the other f***ing way.


No shit, welcome to the US! No one is holding this woman here.

[Not2str8]

I'm as liberal as they come, and I say the flag stays. Providing a non-hostile work environment is desirable, but no employer should be expected to accommodate their employees' every whim. Deal with it, I say.

[rissababynta]

Why compromise one persons comfort for anothers? I think that way too many things are sugar coated in this country sometimes.

[TwylaTwobits]

I'm as patriotic as they come and I can't help but wonder if there is more to it than was reported, probably the person who complained was just complaining to complain.

Personally since the flag was in her office and technically in her private workspace I think it should have been allowed to stay up. But the company can't complain too much, it was Memorial Day.....what the hell were they doing open on Memorial Day?

[TaylorMade]

I'm as patriotic as they come and I can't help but wonder if there is more to it than was reported, probably the person who complained was just complaining to complain.

Personally since the flag was in her office and technically in her private workspace I think it should have been allowed to stay up. But the company can't complain too much, it was Memorial Day.....what the hell were they doing open on Memorial Day?

Hospitals. . .emergency services remain open then.

*Taylor*

[TwylaTwobits]

Hospitals. . .emergency services remain open then.

*Taylor*

Yeah but to have an office where someone would see and complain...I'm thinking this was a corporation...

[codybear3]

Hell yes it should be displayed, by the company as well as anyone who wants to...it's time those of us who are proud to be called citizens of the u.s be allowed to show their patriotism and those who choose not to quit whining about it. if you don't want to look at my flag, look the other f***ing way.


First off, you're in the US so I believe the flag should be flown... Like you say, Zman, if you don't like my flag, look the our frac-ing way... I fly my flag proudly for years and I brought a new one to replace the old for Memorial Day... Its funny cuz I am flying my newest flag with a new "Native" image on it and my next door idiot came to ask me to "please take it down cuz the horse on it offends me"... This fool has been living next to me for 5 years or so and I've never seen him fly a flag... This person, who is a Veteran and suffered injuries in Iraq, put up a brand new flag this memorial day weekend and has not bothered to fly his flag since........ Hmmmm... :eek2::paw::paw:

[MissyMissy]

imho-
i am a united states citizen- despite some of our politicians decisions i support my country and i have the right to show my support as far as i am concerned.
missymissy

[Long Duck Dong]

I am not from the us..... but I have to ask... did the flag in any way, infringe and impede the persons ability to perform the tasks required of them as laid out by the terms of employment....

if the answer is no.... then I would ask, in what way did the flag offend or upset the employee and was it clearly visible to the offended employee, in such a manner that it impeded their ability to do their work....

finally I would ask, if the offended employee would consider other areas in the workplace that would limit or totally remove their viewing the flag....

its a flag, its a symbol of pride for a person and respect to their country..... when you are asked not to publicly display symbols of patriotic pride for your own country..... then you have to seriously question the nature of the person offended by a symbol of pride and patriotism....

now under the guidelines of discrimination in the workplace.... we fight against discrimination.... and now here is a case in question of what I have said so many times..... we remove discrimination but we we have to uphold the rights of the worker in the work place.....

somebody please, show me how in hell you can remove discrimination but uphold workers rights .....without it discriminating against anothers rights.....
it is the same principal as no discrimination against the LGBT people in the workplace, but we then see that the LGBT is asked not to display any form of LGBT icons, articles or actions in the workplace......which in effect.... is discrimination against a worker that may be the top worker in the company

still, back to the original post.... they have to remove a flag of their country, while they work in a office in the country they live and work in, and may have been born in it.... cos its offensive to a person that is working and living in the same country and may have been born in it ?????

my last word.... is one of my favourite statements to people..... no matter what you do and say how ever non offensive it is... somebody will take offense to it.... and that is why we will never remove discrimination

[bityme]

I'm probably going to catch hell for this, and it isnt meant to be any kind of political artical...
Cat

Should the U.S. flag be allowed in the workplace?


Posted: May 27, 2009 2:37 PM PDT Updated: May 27, 2009 2:37 PM PDT

ARLINGTON, TX -- A woman was asked to take a U.S. flag out of her office when one of her co-workers complained. Debbie McLucas says she had a husband and son who were both in the military, and a daughter who is currently serving in Iraq. McLucas brought the flag in to show her support for U.S. troops and her family on Memorial Day. Shortly after she put up the flag, McLucas was asked to take it down because one of the other employees felt uncomfortable with it up.

Should McLucas be allowed to keep her flag up? If one person is offended by it, should the company be made to order her to it taken down? It is in Her office and cannot be seen unless someone comes into her office. Its not huge-just a 3x5.

What do you think?

McLucas should be given a raise and a larger flag.

The person who complained was either a U.S. citizen or a resident alien. In either case, they should be fired.

It the person who complained was an illegal alien, they should be fired and deported.

The ONLY politically correct place for a flag on Memorial Day is being flown to honor our military personnel, particularly those who gave their lives and those who are currently placing their lives in danger.

[rissababynta]

I just don't get it. I mean, I can understand if you just aren't as patriotic a person as some other people (and the whole point of being in this country is to have the freedom to not be if one chooses so), but to actually be OFFENDED?? How can you live in this country and actually be offended.

[MetaSexual2]

So the hospital reversed their decision and allowed the flag back up. To put a bit of context into the discussion, its a shared office with 3 other people. Still doesn't justify the other employee taking it down without permission though.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/052809dnmetkindredflag.21d73b21.html

I'm of mixed feelings on this because I witnessed a similar incident a few years ago. Sure, putting up a flag on Memorial Day is pretty hard to argue against especially in the context of her family's service. What happened where I worked made me think a lot about the meaning of the flag and patriotism though. In 2003 in the run-up to the Iraq war I was working in a place where most of the employees were in a pretty tight cubicle space. It became a hostile workplace, as it became divided into pro- and anti-war camps. A lot of very talented internationals were employed there as well. People were displaying various messages, subtle and not so subtle. What finally caused all hell to break loose was someone putting up a 3x5 US flag which covered the whole of their wall space above their cube, becoming the dominant visual focus of a room with about 30 other people. It was being used this way by someone with a very pro-war message. The management decided that to diffuse the situation that all public displays had to go for a while.

The whole incident made me think a lot about when patriotism crosses the line into fascism. If corrupted, love of country can change into worship of the strong leader and the military, unquestioning loyalty to the state, and cause the creation of extreme jingoism and demonization of those who do question the state's actions. Not that the current case is anywhere close to this, but the one I experienced was not far from it.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

**McLucas said she got to work on Friday and found the flag had been taken down because another supervisor had complained that the display was offensive. The complaining employee is an African immigrant who has lived in the United States for 14 years, McLucas said.**

I know for me, had I returned to work and found that my personal property had been removed without consulting me, or calling me at home and gaining my permission, it would've resulted in a formal complaint to the Administrator of the hospital. I dont care if it Was a Supervisor. A person's personal rights should not be infringed upon, and ones property in Their office or cubical should never be touched, no matter What the reason.
I fail to see how this could be offensive to a person who has been in this country long enough to know and understand that Americans take their Veterans Very seriously, especially if the ones in question are our own Family. That dolt should have known better.

I'm very glad she was granted the right to return it to her wall, even if Memorial day Has passed.
You Go, Girlfriend! :)
Cat, Flag Waver.

[tg Shannon]

very basic strict rule here........yer in my house, you go by my rules. I am sick n tired of everything offending everybody, SHIT, Lighten up people, my mom lives in the biggest arrab settlement in america, dearborn michigan, they rule there, no kiddin, a woman who was a janitor at a school lost her job because she was wearing a necklace with a cross on it and it "OFFENDED SOMEONE" she was told to take it off by here superiors and told not to wear it anymore, she refused and detroit's unemployed grew by one that day, that is one, JUST ONE of the many incidents that have happened there, some of the stores such as a very big pharmecy chain have their sign written in arabic only there, no joke, if you fell asleep and I drove you to Dearborn and then you woke up, you would swear I took you over seas.

My bottom line is this, If it offends you so much that GOD is mentioned on our money and in our pledge, if the sight of the cross makes you ill, If our flag is that repulsive to you, if christmas is a pisser because you cant buy lottery tickets on that day ( true story that happened in front of my eyes)
If ENGLISH is too difficult to learn, and a whole myriad of other detestible things that AMERICA has to offer.............., then its time to go back to your own Mother Fuckin country, where you are told what flag to display, your are insisted upon to worship in their fashion, your will is not your own, and idividuality is a sin....go back to your own country where terrorists with guns will rule your life and you live in fear that a family member will disapear with no explination as to whats happend to them, if we AMERICANS offend you so much....Why the hell would you want to live amoung us? take my advice....get out now, we are a generous and giving people, we would gladly have a fund raiser and take up money to get you back to that glorious home of yours where you CANT be somebody and you actually have to pay something to live there, I'm an entertainer on the side and would gladly volunteer my elvis impersonation show and tribute show to raise the money for you to get back to your homeland, it is ok, I like to help the suffering and I do charity work, I would love to fix it to where you would'nt ever have to see those awful red white and blue colors again, see the horrid cross or hear or see the word (or name) GOD again as long as it helps someone out!!!! I could RANT on and on forever on this and normally I abstain, but this shit is pushing me over the edge.

my house, my rules

sorry everyone, gonna go drink a six, wich I have the right to do and sleep.

[tg Shannon]

Oh and by the way folks, um if I offended anyone with my comment............GOOD!!!:soapbox:

[codybear3]

Oh and by the way folks, um if I offended anyone with my comment............GOOD!!!:soapbox:


Right on, bicdmale... But does telling everyone that don't like it here to go back "to thier own Mother Fuckin country" also include all those that "invaded" around, lets say, 1492???? Just wondering.... :paw::paw:

[lv69cpl69]

We are offended by it NOT being there. now do they have to put it back?

[Annika L]

I'm as liberal as they come, and I say the flag stays. Providing a non-hostile work environment is desirable, but no employer should be expected to accommodate their employees' every whim. Deal with it, I say.

Amen Notty! (and where the hell have you been anyway?? :tong:)

I am pretty darned liberal myself, and far from the most patriotic person in the country...I confess I have not always appreciated being reminded that I am an American. But I have been *far* more offended by other things I've seen in other peoples' offices! And I would never curtail another's right to express their patriotism!

This was an American, with an American flag...in America, right? On a day designated for patriotism? I can only believe there was some other dynamic to it that wasn't reported in the article. But both the complaint and the company's response to it sound pretty poorly thought out to me!

[grayhound]

I am a retired Vet. I personaly fly my AMERICAN flag EVERY day. IN MY FRONT YARD. And will leave it there as long as I live.

[rissababynta]

Right on, bicdmale... But does telling everyone that don't like it here to go back "to thier own Mother Fuckin country" also include all those that "invaded" around, lets say, 1492???? Just wondering.... :paw::paw:


I'd also like to know why you don't belong in this country if you are offended by seeing things about God everywhere...I mean...this country is supposed to be filled with a diversity of religious beliefs...why do you only pick people who are offended by God to be the ones that have to leave?

[meteast chick]

This is the United States of America. Most of us are proud to be Americans, for the most part anyway. I salute the flag, stand up, take my hat off, put my right hand over my heart and sing the national anthem.

Your article really surprised me. It is wrong alltogether to ask someone, or order someone, to take down a flag, but in Texas(!), HOLY CRAP!!! You know if someone had a Mexican(or about any other nation) flag up and we asked them to remove it, all hell would break loose.

What is with this country nowadays? Prop 8 and now this? Hate for civil liberties is spreading. It's a sad, sad state we are finding ourselves in.

luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxox
meteast

[open2both]

The flag STAYS!
Anyone can assign any "meaning" they want to it from left through right.

[rissababynta]

Your article really surprised me. It is wrong alltogether to ask someone, or order someone, to take down a flag, but in Texas(!), HOLY CRAP!!! You know if someone had a Mexican(or about any other nation) flag up and we asked them to remove it, all hell would break loose.



I thought the same exact thing! The first thing I said to my husband was "This happened in ARLINGTON...wow..."...and my husband is half mexican and the majority of his family (on the mexican side) lives in San Antonio. So, yeah...we totally know what you mean about the flag thing...

[jamieknyc]

Purely from the point of view of the law, the employer has the legal right to determine whether employees are allwoed to display the flag. Legally, the workplace belongs to the employer, and they can control what employees do there unless there is some law that states otherwise.

[tg Shannon]

then the damn employer needs to move outta town too:soapbox: in that case, here in TN, Tyson chicken has a plant, they told their employees that they were working on labor day, but because they had several employees af arab desent they would be taking off the begining of rosh hanah (or what ever thats called) in october in place of labor day, I aint throwin off on just one group (although it sounds like it), being very bi and a cd , I keep a very open mind and accept all for who and what they are, I may not agree with ya, but as long as ya dont try to push nothing off on me or others, I'll give ya your space and equal time, but as I said before, my house, my rules, unfortunatley as the lovely Jamie pointed out, that also goes for employers, so once again I say, get the HELL outta my country:soapbox:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

"Purely from the point of view of the law, the employer has the legal right to determine whether employees are allwoed to display the flag. Legally, the workplace belongs to the employer, and they can control what employees do there unless there is some law that states otherwise."

That's very true Darlin, but it still sucked. lol
I'll bet there was an hell of an up roar when the media found out about it.I have a POW windsock that flies off my front porch and the first person that tells me they dont like it, or it offends their delicate sensibilities, can kiss my rosie red!! (Or in my case buluga white...lol)
Bad Cat:bigrin:

[codybear3]

I am a retired Vet. I personaly fly my AMERICAN flag EVERY day. IN MY FRONT YARD. And will leave it there as long as I live.

And may you have the opportunity to fly your flag for another 100 years... :paw::paw:

[Ninnian]

I have to say Jaime i scorrect-- and although the employer has teh jobs (why do folks alway sthink its THIER job??.. 'Someone took my JOB'...No.. teh job was there when you got it, its there for whomever the employer wishes to have it) an dits thier workspace that within health and safety issues they have a right to say how its maintained.
That being said... if I read correctly the employer took it down becuase someone ELSE was offended. Not for a violation of working space code, or such.
The thing that gets me in this country nowadyas-- is that folks think they have a right " To Not be Offended". ... which unfortunately somehow extends also to teh way or intention of ones Thoughts. Thought police. Hate speech.*shudder*
A child called a youngster a Racist the other day at my sons school.. becuase he called his OWN genetic make-up Indian.. and NOT Native American... Im one.. I can dang well call myself whatever the heck I want to!.. and look up teh DEFINITION of Racist, ya lil punk!

When in Rome-- sheesh.. I get tired of folks not truly understanding and appreciating not only what this country (and many other fine ones) have to offer.. but what Veterans (an dthier families) gave up to ensure that we still have it to offer. For teh time bieng , anyhow.

Nin- who flies a flag proudly.

[FalconAngel]

A lot of PC people are forgetting that we are in the USA. The people who complain about the US flag are normally here for the money. The folks who are here for a legitimate reason have no issue with the US flag being flown here.

People who are offended with such displays of patriotism, should be scrutinized very carefully by their employers, not catered to.

No one should be offended by someone flying their nation's flag in their own nation. What irritates me even more are the idiots that allow the flag to fly after it has long since become worn and tattered.

I served the nation that our flag flies over and I am offended by those people that are offended by it, that live here.

If you don't like our flag, well, no one is keeping you here. You are free to leave.......and close the door behind you when you go.

[bret5668]

It's allowed in schools, why not the workplace.

[FalconAngel]

It's allowed in schools, why not the workplace.

Good point.

More importantly, what kind of employer would not stand up for flying the US flag anywhere in the US?

I try to get a few small flags for flying on my bike. When one wears out, I replace it. I have never had anyone try to tell me to take it down and if someone did, they would be in for a universe of hurt if they tried to make me take it down.

[MissyMissy]

American Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Man, O.A.S. Res. XXX, adopted by the Ninth International Conference of American States (1948), reprinted in Basic Documents Pertaining to Human Rights in the Inter-American System, OEA/Ser.L.V/II.82 doc.6 rev.1 at 17 (1992).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHEREAS: The American peoples have acknowledged the dignity of the individual, and their national constitutions recognize that juridical and political institutions, which regulate life in human society, have as their principal aim the protection of the essential rights of man and the creation of circumstances that will permit him to achieve spiritual and material progress and attain happiness;

The American States have on repeated occasions recognized that the essential rights of man are not derived from the fact that he is a national of a certain state, but are based upon attributes of his human personality;

The international protection of the rights of man should be the principal guide of an evolving American law;

The affirmation of essential human rights by the American States together with the guarantees given by the internal regimes of the states establish the initial system of protection considered by the American States as being suited to the present social and juridical conditions, not without a recognition on their part that they should increasingly strengthen that system in the international field as conditions become more favorable,

The Ninth International Conference of American States

AGREES:

To adopt the following Preamble All men are born free and equal, in dignity and in rights, and, being endowed by nature with reason and conscience, they should conduct themselves as brothers one to another.

The fulfillment of duty by each individual is a prerequisite to the rights of all. Rights and duties are interrelated in every social and political activity of man. While rights exalt individual liberty, duties express the dignity of that liberty.

Duties of a juridical nature presuppose others of a moral nature which support them in principle and constitute their basis.

Inasmuch as spiritual development is the supreme end of human existence and the highest expression thereof, it is the duty of man to serve that end with all his strength and resources.

Since culture is the highest social and historical expression of that spiritual development, it is the duty of man to preserve, practice and foster culture by every means within his power.

And, since moral conduct constitutes the noblest flowering of culture, it is the duty of every man always to hold it in high respect.

some of the rights contained in this article:

Article XVII. Every person has the right to be recognized everywhere as a person having rights and obligations, and to enjoy the basic civil rights. Right to recognition of juridical personality and civil rights.


Article XXII. Every person has the right to associate with others to promote, exercise and protect his legitimate interests of a political, economic, religious, social, cultural, professional, labor union or other nature. Right of association.


and if you dont like it here....

Article XIX. Every person has the right to the nationality to which he is entitled by law and to change it, if he so wishes, for the nationality of any other country that is willing to grant it to him. Right to nationality.

[clovermoon]

Fly the flag of our country if you take issue with it then maybe this isn't the country for you. Chances are that your ancestors immigrated here for a similar reason, maybe you should follow in thier footsteps and find a country in which you'd be happy.

[MissyMissy]

Fly the flag of our country if you take issue with it then maybe this isn't the country for you. Chances are that your ancestors immigrated here for a similar reason, maybe you should follow in thier footsteps and find a country in which you'd be happy.

uh huh right to nationality....
said in a decent respectful way instead of saying well if ya dont like it here get the fuck out!

[MetaSexual2]

"America, Fuck Yeah!"

[IanBorthwick]

Sorry, sounds like we got not all of the story and it's a stacked article to make us think in the flag bearers favor. Besides, can she be told in the work place to take something down? Yes. The US Flag? Yes. WHy? It's not her property and the are she works in is subject to the companies rules. Just because it's the US flag doesn't make it immune to regulations of the workplace.

Plus, what if the person who complained associates the flag with lost loved ones? We know nothing of the situation and too much of the incidental crap.

As Sherlock said,"Data, data, data, Watson! A potter cannot work without clay, how can you expect me to make judgements without data!"

[rissababynta]

"America, Fuck Yeah!"

LMFAO!

"Freedom is the only way, yeah!"

[Hephaestion]

Doesn't this kind of thing work both ways? Employers have a natural duty of care towards ALL of their employees and not to a selective few.

Can't people complain in return or send problem staff to Coventry? That's Brit speak for giving them the silent treatment, unless say the interaction is either recorded on paper and agreed or witnessed and minuted or both. After all, one should protect oneself in case of further complaint / irrational behaviour.

[FalconAngel]

Sorry, sounds like we got not all of the story and it's a stacked article to make us think in the flag bearers favor. Besides, can she be told in the work place to take something down? Yes. The US Flag? Yes. WHy? It's not her property and the are she works in is subject to the companies rules. Just because it's the US flag doesn't make it immune to regulations of the workplace.

Plus, what if the person who complained associates the flag with lost loved ones? We know nothing of the situation and too much of the incidental crap.

As Sherlock said,"Data, data, data, Watson! A potter cannot work without clay, how can you expect me to make judgements without data!"

Doesn't matter if it is a stacked story.

Being offended by the flag being flown anywhere in this nation is like being offended when any citizen of any nation flies their flag in their own nation.

As citizens of this nation, our flag is our property, as a nation of free people.

No one living and working here should be offended by our own citizens flying the flag. Legal immigrants fly our flag because they want to be part of this nation.

The flag of the United States of America is not just a representation of our nation, but of it's trials and triumphs. Each color on the flag represents something of our history, spirit and sacrifice.

When the flag is folded, it is folded, with 13 different folds, in a very precise manner and each fold represent 13 different things.

Every military veteran who has worked a funeral detail knows this.

Everything about the flag is held in reverence and there are federal laws about how the flag is supposed to be flown and when and when not, how it is to be displayed in various circumstances and there are even laws regarding how and when it is supposed to be disposed of properly when a flag is worn out.

Look at any commercial airliner that is flagged as a US registered aircraft. Every military, non-combat aircraft.
Every one of them has a flag on the tail or fuselage and no matter which side of the aircraft you look at, the stars face the front.
Anytime you see a US flag on the stern of a ship, the stars are to the left.

On buildings for parades, the stars face either North or East. North for the unwavering North Star, East for the sunrise.

EVERY TIME.

There is a reason for that as well. Few nations have that kind of reverence for their national symbols.

Our flag is a symbol of honor, tarnished of late, but still a symbol of an ideal that some people hold in awe, some are jealous and hateful of and others want to be part of.

Our flag represents a nation that is not perfect, but underneath all of our flaws, we are still an overall nation of people that want to do what is right.

If someone is living and working in this country, reaping the benefits of the freedom that so very many have fought, bled and died to earn and protect, then that someone has no legitimate, moral right to complain if we display that love and pride for our nation........anywhere.

If you hate our flag, then you hate our nation. If you hate our nation, then you are free to leave and don't let the door hit you in the ass as you go.

If someone tells me to remove my flag because they are offended by it, then I have the same right to fly it because I am offended by their offense of my pride in my nation and it's symbol.

Did you know that it is against the law for any other nation's flag to be flown higher than ours in this country?
That is federal law. And with the exception of the UN flag at the UN building, no other flag of any kind is allowed to be flown higher than the US flag, in this nation.

There is no justifiable excuse for anyone to be offended by any American flying the American flag anywhere in These United States of America.

[MetaSexual2]

Falcon,

I have no doubt of your patriotism, or the place you are coming from in your heart on this. I just want you to consider for a moment that you may be holding the symbol of the thing you love in higher regard than the thing for which it actually stands. People still need to have the freedom to be offended if they so choose. Dissent must be regarded as healthy in a democracy.

The company has the ultimate right to decide whether personal displays are allowed in their workplace, and they should have the right to say what can be displayed on their property, no matter how distasteful their decisions may be. If personal displays are generally allowed within the bounds of good taste, then the company should explain why the flag would be regarded as being in poor taste. We just don't know what went on in that office though, and as in the incident I mentioned above there could have been a situation where a person was using the flag in such a way as to antagonise others. In that case the company would be well within their rights to lower tensions by generally disallowing personal displays. In this case the freedom of speech of the employer has higher legal standing than that of the employee, as its their property she was displaying the flag on. If the wall belonged to her personally, its a completely different story.

[lv69cpl69]

So if I am "offended" by where you come from, your hair cut or style, your pants around your knees showing your underware, the hat on sideways. the fact that you drive a import, and so on will you have to change? nope (well I hope not)We have our rights. so do they. I wonder if the company has rules that say you can not have a flag???? our bank tellers have flags from where they are from. Mexico, Canada as well as state flags.
bottom line do WE have to stop EVERYTHING that offends someone???????
I sure hope not I know people that are " offended" by non hetro people where will that go? give in they will take it all. I am sure about everything done by anyone offendes someone :2cents:

[FalconAngel]

Falcon,

I have no doubt of your patriotism, or the place you are coming from in your heart on this. I just want you to consider for a moment that you may be holding the symbol of the thing you love in higher regard than the thing for which it actually stands. People still need to have the freedom to be offended if they so choose. Dissent must be regarded as healthy in a democracy.

The company has the ultimate right to decide whether personal displays are allowed in their workplace, and they should have the right to say what can be displayed on their property, no matter how distasteful their decisions may be. If personal displays are generally allowed within the bounds of good taste, then the company should explain why the flag would be regarded as being in poor taste. We just don't know what went on in that office though, and as in the incident I mentioned above there could have been a situation where a person was using the flag in such a way as to antagonise others. In that case the company would be well within their rights to lower tensions by generally disallowing personal displays. In this case the freedom of speech of the employer has higher legal standing than that of the employee, as its their property she was displaying the flag on. If the wall belonged to her personally, its a completely different story.

What that says is that I may not be proud of my nation and my service to it. Were she flying a flag of another nation, I could understand.

Again, there is no excuse for asking a citizen to remove this nation's flag from their workplace.

And how could someone in the US "antagonize" a coworker by flying the American flag? That makes absolutely no sense. If someone working here is not a Citizen or trying to be one, then why are they here when they do not want to be here? WE are the ones who should be offended, not the person living and working here that is offended by our national symbol. If they chose to be here, they gave up the "right" to be offended by the symbol of the nation that took them in.

Someone was offended by the flag of the nation that they were living in. Boo hoo for them. They are living in this country, so if they cannot accept that there are people here who are patriotic, why should they have to hide that patriotism so that someone else is not offended?

That flag symbolizes a lot of things, which include the right to express yourself as you see fit. It does not free you from being offended, nor does it free one from being offended by others.

What you are suggesting is nothing but more out of control PC.

Someone is offended by the US flag being flown in the US, so in order to not offend them, they decide to offend the patriotic American who is doing nothing more than expressing their love of their country; something that the flag represents, too. We are not talking about someone crying out KKK crap or flying a swaztika. We are talking about someone flying the symbol of the nation that they live and work in, and any American employer who asks an American employee to remove the American flag should be completely and totally ashamed of themselves.

Our flag has never represented Political Correctness. It has never represented backing down because our enemies were offended by us or it. It has always represented freedom and that includes being proud of this nation and the right to be offended by others. It does not represent the right of corporations, but it does represent the right of the individual.

If the offended party cannot cope with that flag, then they can look away. Others should not be inconvenienced so that a single person is not offended. That is just plain and simple weakness and inferiority of the offended individual.

If a guest was staying in your home and shit on your table, because they were offended by it, who is wrong; you for having the offending table, or them for offending you with their disrespect for your home and property?

[MetaSexual2]

The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with political correctness, in fact it is the very opposite. What I'm saying is maintaining the right to express unpopular ideas against the majority is a critical function of democracy. There has always been a trend towards increasing fetishism of the outward symbols of democracy, and not the principles on which it is based, in times of crisis in the US (red scares of the 1950s, war on terror, etc.) This does not serve our country well. "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." is not an appropriate sentiment for what should be expressed as a reverence for the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Wrapping yourself in the flag as though it were a sports team's t-shirt should not be regarded as patriotism in and of itself.

What you are arguing for is the violation of the company managers first amendment rights, which as I pointed out above supersede that of the employee's in this case. Falcon, what do you mean when you say there should be "no excuse" for dissent? Please realise that I am not arguing that the original decision was "right", but rather that the situation is ambiguous, and it is the managers' decision to make.

In discussions like this I am always reminded of this picture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pledge_salue.jpg) of the original flag pledge salute and what the dangers are of symbol worship that we must guard against.

Two sentiments worthy of consideration:
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall paraphrasing Voltaire

[FalconAngel]

The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with political correctness, in fact it is the very opposite. What I'm saying is maintaining the right to express unpopular ideas against the majority is a critical function of democracy. There has always been a trend towards increasing fetishism of the outward symbols of democracy, and not the principles on which it is based, in times of crisis in the US (red scares of the 1950s, war on terror, etc.) This does not serve our country well. "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." is not an appropriate sentiment for what should be expressed as a reverence for the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Wrapping yourself in the flag as though it were a sports team's t-shirt should not be regarded as patriotism in and of itself.

What you are arguing for is the violation of the company managers first amendment rights, which as I pointed out above supersede that of the employee's in this case. Falcon, what do you mean when you say there should be "no excuse" for dissent? Please realise that I am not arguing that the original decision was "right", but rather that the situation is ambiguous, and it is the managers' decision to make.

In discussions like this I am always reminded of this picture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pledge_salue.jpg) of the original flag pledge salute and what the dangers are of symbol worship that we must guard against.

Two sentiments worthy of consideration:
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall paraphrasing Voltaire

I never said they were not free to have dissent, but by forcing that one person to remove the flag of the nation that they live and work from their personal space at their company is not dissent. It is suppression of that person's right to display their patriotism.

It says, in a very clear way, that freedom of expression is not acceptable. It says that if someone is offended by your love of that nation and it's principles, then you may not do so, because the very expression of it offends them.

It says that the freedom to display the nation's flag is less important than those that are offended by it's display.

It is a sad day for this country when the flag is so insignificant that some one can tell us to not fly our nation's flag and we have to comply.

When you are no longer allowed to display your patriotism, in your own nation, then those that oppose our rights have taken those rights away.

That never would have happened when I was growing up. The company would have told that "offended" person to piss off and work somewhere else if they didn't like our flag.

[FalconAngel]

As for the flag, I have nothing against it being displayed. Additionally, I do find defacement of it tasteless. I do however think a lot of the issues being debated are a 'red herring' to distract people from what's being done to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

People forget how dangerous true democracy is, or that the US is in fact a Democratic REPUBLIC.

Keep an eye on this Sotomayer. She is to the core a totalitarian, with absolute contempt for blind justice. Ask Chris Ricci.

I don't mean to sound preachy, like I entertain the idea of being some sort of learned expert. I'm not. I just keep an ear to the ground because most(opinion) of my generation has given up already. It just blows my mind how many people willfully disengage as their world is stolen from them.

Yours is not the only generation to do that, Az. My generation has done a lot of the same. No one wants to pay attention to the things that are happening to our rights.

[TaylorMade]

Kim Roosevelt, the guy who tried to prevent the communist takeover of Iran, by installing the Shah, who later was overthrown in the Islamic Revolution?

I did not know his real first name was Kermit. Cool.

*Taylor*