Discrimination against the kilted :p

[MetaSexual2]

Just saw this little tidbit (http://www.standard.net/live/news/173494) in the news. You have to love the professional quality :sarcasm: of school officials like this. A principal of a Utah middle school told a student he had to remove his kilt, which he was wearing for a school project, because he thought he was cross-dressing.

Not only is the order to change clothes ridiculous in itself, it also makes me wonder about what the rights of children who are trans or of indeterminate gender to choose which traditional gender attire they adopt at school. In defense of the student supporters said its not cross-dressing, but what in itself would be wrong with cross-dressing? I suppose the administrator and board would attempt to make a lame attempt at a orderly conduct argument in that case.

[Long Duck Dong]

they are a principal and they have no idea about the meaning of a kilt ???

lol I can not resist it ... I have to say it... its another case of a person employed for their bits of paper, not their brains....lol.

[Hephaestion]

The issue of unfairness to genuine crossdressers and transexuals aside, what this does betray in persons of authority associated with learning (apart from poor internal communication) is a lack of knowledge and therefore, competence. Why are these people working in education? Are their employers equally stupid? Is Utah lattery so isolated that these people have not seen kilts on pipers bands portraying links with the British Isles in the parades in New York?

God forbid that there is ever a school project which tracks Greek culture on which so many western institions lay claim to as didactic. The late historic ceremonial dress of their soldiers the Tsoliades (plural) is far more camp in appearance (except that they too would stick something sharp up your nose if you tried to take the piss, and their slippers are in fact steel reinforced clogs). Obviously our youth was missing the cutlass and dirk.

Moron n. 1 colloq. very stupid person. 2 adult with a mental age of 8–12. moronic adj. [Greek moros foolish]

H.

[fuzzybunnykins]

a) its a kilt not a skirt therefore male
b) Im sure there are girls at this school wearing trousers, isent that cross dressing?

[12voltman59]

they are a principal and they have no idea about the meaning of a kilt ???

lol I can not resist it ... I have to say it... its another case of a person employed for their bits of paper, not their brains....lol.

It seems to me that "school officials" have a very limited and narrow range of what is acceptable to them---they have little tolerance for anything that is beyond "status quo" standards---a kilt is something that is not on their page, so its verboten.

But then--you do have to feel for them in one way--they have so many "constituencies" they must keep happy---parents that don't want their kids to be exposed to ideas and such that are not their own---from the entire political--ideological spectrum---with those parents threatening to sue the school district when something crops up they don't agree with.

It has to be a maddening place to be in----so--they take a "middle of the road" position on things--making rules and policies from that position so they try to offend as few people as possible---and let's face it--there is not that big a lobby to allow boys to wear their kilts!!

[izzfan]

This seems like such a shame, but I am still of the opinion that the education system is one of the last bastions of narrow-mindedness and conformity where anyone who is remotely "different" is either made an outcast or forced to hide a large part of their personality.

Seriously though, "mistaken for a cross dresser", why is this even a problem in the first place. I mean, all he would have to do is explain that he is wearing a kilt, not a skirt. Anyway, it is very easy to tell the difference between the two (the tartan and sporran might be a bit of a clue).

Anyway, the bigger issue is - so what if he wore a skirt (as opposed to a kilt)? Why would it be such an issue? I've never got the whole thing about gender and clothes - how a woman can wear clothes which were once seen as male and no-one bats an eyelid but if a guy even looks vaguely feminine (let alone wears a skirt) then he gets all sort of trouble for it. It reminds me of this brilliant article I read a while ago ( http://www.mycdlife.com/2009/05/socially-acceptable-gender-expression).

Recently, I went to an "alternative" event [with some really good music] in a rather nice outfit that included a calf-length skirt. When I was sitting outside enjoying a cigarette with an acquaintence (who was quite drunk by this point) he happened to notice my skirt and a hilarious conversation ensued:

him: You're wearing a skirt?
me: yes, I believe that's what it's called.
him: but.... why?
me: I was feeling androgynous... also, it's really comfortable
him: comfort's not the issue.... you actually own dresses and skirts?
me: yes, I didn't steal them if that's what you're asking

The conversation then went off onto other topics but it illustrates quite an interesting point. I had to spend a long time working up the courage to even wear that outfit whereas a woman wouldn't have worried for a minute about wearing jeans to it. I'm not being cynical about female fashion, I think it's great that women have a wide variety of clothes to wear but I only wish that the same was true for guys.

On the subject of crossdressing, many crossdressers (myself included) realised that they were not entirely masculine at a relatively young age (I realised that I liked to crossdress when I was 13) but they are forced to hide it for fear of how other pupils and the teachers might react. It wasn't until I was about 16 that I realised that other crossdressers even existed. Would it be too much trouble for schools to include education about transgender issues on the curriculum.

Just my :2cents:

[12voltman59]

Would it be too much trouble for schools to include education about transgender issues on the curriculum.

Just my :2cents:

Izz--in America today--it probably would be way too much trouble to have such info included in the curriculum--I mean my God man--we still have people who want to do away with teaching about Darwin and the "Theory" of Evolution and only teach "creative design!" IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

To allow teaching about cross dressing--or to try to--would only play into the hands of those on the social right who would point to such a proposal and say "See--we told ya--give the secular humanist liberals an inch and they want to take 10,000 miles and teach that everything is OK--what is next??---that it is fine to have sex with dogs or something??"

[shybipinay]

If women can wear pants, or my dress shirt as their nightie, or socks instead of stockings I, as a man, can wear panties, bra, skirt, blouse, heels, or whatever. If women can wear blue, I can wear pink. In this day and age, should it really matter?

We have equality don't we? :2cents:

[FalconAngel]

Obviously our youth was missing the cutlass and dirk.

It would have been a Claighdmore (probably Basket hilt). Cutlasses were shipboard weapons of the golden age of piracy. And don't forget the Skein Dubh.

But either way, how could the idiot not know what a Kilt is? Oh, wait a minute; Utah. Probably a Morman.

[izzfan]

Izz--in America today--it probably would be way too much trouble to have such info included in the curriculum--I mean my God man--we still have people who want to do away with teaching about Darwin and the "Theory" of Evolution and only teach "creative design!" IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

To allow teaching about cross dressing--or to try to--would only play into the hands of those on the social right who would point to such a proposal and say "See--we told ya--give the secular humanist liberals an inch and they want to take 10,000 miles and teach that everything is OK--what is next??---that it is fine to have sex with dogs or something??"

It is definately a sad state of affairs when the right (or left for that matter) have a large influence over what is taught in schools. In an ideal world, education would be apolitical and wide-ranging.

I'm just annoyed that schools in the US take these right-wing fundamentalists seriously. I still think that if people had the balls to ignore outspoken fundamentalists (regardless of what religion they are) then they would hopefully get the message and stop lecturing people. Although, realistically, they would probably just keep on shouting the same things - only louder. It's a sad state of affairs.

The irony of all this is that something like 1 in 50 men are crossdressers, just like 1 in 10 men are gay, 1 in 10 women are lesbians etc.... so within these fundamentalist churches across the world there are probably a lot of people who have been forced into the closet and are suffering unnecessarily due to about four sentences taken from a book that is over a millenium old, already totally devoid of its original historical context, which has been translated at least once (losing even more of its original context) and where large portions of it are written by unknown writers. It would be funny if it wasn't actually happening.

Don't get me started on organised religions :soapbox: LOL!

I guess the political/religious right meddling with the education system is a pretty universal thing. Less than a decade ago schools in the UK couldn't teach about same-sex relationships, homophobia etc... Thankfully, that has changed but you have to wonder how many people were left feeling alone, feeling like freaks etc... thanks to the puritanical actions of the conservative party.

[Hephaestion]

It would have been a Claighdmore (probably Basket hilt). Cutlasses were shipboard weapons of the golden age of piracy. And don't forget the Skein Dubh.

But either way, how could the idiot not know what a Kilt is? Oh, wait a minute; Utah. Probably a Morman.

Thanks for setting me right Falcon (I knew it wasn't a cutlass and was stuck for the real name).

Regards

H.

[FalconAngel]

Thanks for setting me right Falcon (I knew it wasn't a cutlass and was stuck for the real name).

Regards

H.

No problem. I have 3 family lines from That lovely land and I wear one of the Tartans for faire. in case you couldn't tell from the picture.:tong:

[Long Duck Dong]

I am in two minds about this....yes I do see the issue with wearing kilts at school, but it is worn as a symbol of pride and indeed the scottish are a honourable and proud people.....but there is also the aspect of dress code....and many schools insist on a conformed school code.....

conforming to rules, teaches structure and discipline and shows students that while they are who they are, society has rules and guidelines and they do extend into the work place.....

if we are to take the step of allowing cross dressing into schools ( bullying aside ) we face the issue of blurring the gender defined boundaries for people and that can be a form of discrimination and violation of privacy ....

I do know for a number of the ladies I know, that the idea of sharing a toilet with a male in a dress / trans person, is something that they do find, rather disconcerting...and to be told that speaking up against aspects of it, is discrimination...

now the issue there is that the ladies have the right to privacy in a personal area... and opening it up, can lead to a breaking of the strict boundaries, I agree.... but you are sending two messages....
one ) we are looking to gander more boarder acceptance of the diverse nature of human society but embracing a blurring of the lines

two ) we are removing your personal rights to privacy and female interests in a rest room, and telling you that you do not have the right to oppose any move in that aspect, as it is regarded as discrimination....

imagine a changing shed for things like swimming, you would have young ladies what can be self conscious, in the same changing room as a male with a penis.... or a young lady in a room full of males.....

hormones are nasty lil buggers that can have bad effects on teens..I know I was one....and honestly the idea of a lady in the boys changing rooms would have got a reaction from me, that would have lead to much laughing and humilation about my * interest * in a female form but my supposed attraction to a cross dresser / trans person.....

either way, that could have a profound effect on a straight male with a ego and a very bad ending for a cross dressing / trans person.....

( in the case of me, I would have stood beside the cross dresser / trans person, and yes, more than a sexual interest, with ready fists, as I know what school bullies and the effects they can have )

as much as i would love to see scottish children be able to wear their kilts with pride..... I fear that a instance like that would be turned into a call for trans gender / cross dresser rights at schools...and while thats good to let kids express themselves.... it opens a can of worms on many levels.... and the last thing I would wish for any parent is to have their children beat or worse for the simple crime of self expression, or supporting / protecting those that wish to express themselves.....

me ??? shrugs.... thinks back to my school days ...... and bring on the bullies...cos I would not go down without a fight, and I would take the bullies down with me....

LLD proud to be of the anderson ( Mac Ghille Aindrais ) clan from renfrew, scotland... stand sure.... and lang may yer lum reek

[izzfan]

LDD, you make quite a few interesting points and it is certainly a difficult issue. The whole subject of bathrooms always seems to be a bone of contention between TG people and non-TG people and I could see how it could cause problems in a school. Short of bulding a third bathroom/changing room I don't know how this problem could be solved to the satisfaction of both sides (even then, the non-trans people would say that trans people were getting "special treatment" and the trans people would just want to be seen as a normal person of the opposite gender rather than having a separate area for trans people).

On the other hand, there is no sense of compromise in the education system. "LGB" people are barely mentioned/protected/helped let alone "T" people. Your schooldays are probably "the best days of your life" as long as you happen to completely identify with the gender you were born in and only have feelings for the opposite sex. I guess I am lucky that I am just a crossdresser/bigendered person because I imagine that it would be ten times worse for a TS person.

As for the subject of bullies [:disgust::mad:]. Luckily I was never bullied for being a crossdresser or for being (mostly) gay. However, this was because I hid it really well and/or tried to ignore it [this is especially true for the gay aspect of my personailty - I was never that interested in the idea of sleeping with women but it took me until I was about 17/18 to work out why] and this has probably left more than a few psychological scars/insecurities/anxieties etc...

I was bullied enough as it was (back then I was bordering on being a Christian fundamentalist (eg: I alawys carried a bible with me... something the bullies had great fun in hiding/stealing), I was a complete geek, I was a coward, I was a bit eccentric etc... The bullies really enjoyed making my life miserable) and coming out would have made it ten times worse, I couldn't talk to the teachers about my crossdressing [I discovered this when I was about 12/13 and hid behind religion in order to conceal it] because the school was nominally religious (Catholic) and I'd have probably been told that I could be "cured", that I was sinning against god etc..., I couldn't talk to my friends about it as they would have probably laughed at me/ told other people and I didn't tell my parents as they were slightly conservative [they sort of know now and they are tolerant]. In short, I was alone and terrified for several years, not to mention all the self-loathing, and I'm sure that my experience is not unique.

I can see the logistical reasons why schools force trans people to suppress a large part of themselves - a part, which I must empahsise, they did not choose. I guess they often think that they will help the majority and ignore the suffering of the minority. Also, it is hard to know who is gay/bi/lesbian/trans when they are at school because they either haven't worked out that they are "different" or they are forced to hide it out of fear (either due to bullying or the fear of bullying [something which is just as bad as bullying]). I mean, when I was at school, I thought I was the only guy who didn't like sleeping with women but enjoyed wearing "female" clothes/ feeling like I wasn't entirely male.

It is a complicated subject and there are no easy answers but what annoys me is the fact that the school thinks that wearing a kilt is "crossdressing". It goes to show the absurd views of society when it comes to clothes. To give an example, when I am about to go to sleep I decide whther to wear the really comfortable crushed velvet elasticated trousers (size 16 and originally made for women - also very comfortable) or a nightshirt (it has a male size, but it looks like a dress from a distance). The irony is that, technically, the trousers are "crossdressing" and the nightshirt isn't. Usually I just say "f*** it" and wear a t-shirt and skirt or shorts. :bigrin:

Sorry about the long post but it is a complex subject.

Ps: These two very well-written articles explain a lot of the problems crossdressers face when they grow up: http://www.mycdlife.com/2009/04/getting-busted-and-learning-to-hate-myself and http://www.mycdlife.com/2009/03/until-society-has-their-way-with-them