The truth about pirates...(?)

[vittoria]

If someone was to come into the US's waters and either dump toxic waste or fish in them, what would the US do?

Here's a little something I found...

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html

Discuss...

[allbimyself]

Nothing to discuss. The commentaries already posted on the article are enough.

[Falke]

Pretty much. The article has no proof and the pirates seem to be after money, not bringing up a ecological issue. I know they aren't spending any cash they receive on cleaning up their ecosystem, it's all personal gain.

[vittoria]

I thought it to be rather fascinating banter... check out what this one dOOd said:

Oh, yes. Pirates, Hamas, Hizballah, Al-Qaeda, Austrian dungeon daddy Joseph Fritzl, Dracula, all kinds of murderers, criminals, robbers and rapists all have a cause and should be respected, talked with and given concessions. Congratulation, Independent.http://opinion.independentminds.livejournal.com/8887.html?thread=4966071#t4966071I think it wouldve been better if she wouldve put down some quotes, a few references-- something.

[IanBorthwick]

This is one of those situations where we need to make sure we're on the straight and narrow before launching into counter-terrorism/counter-attacks. With a "little" work we can diminish the creation of a lot of out own misery.

[Falke]

Oh, one last thought.

Pirates are fun! :bigrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUUjk5wlMBg

[hudson9]

The article is accurate in terms of describing where this current pirate phenomenon came from -- a failed (nonexistent) government results in anarchy. Anarchy means no protection from opportunists, thugs, or gangsters -- either local or foreigners. Even a bad government's interest in keeping order is usually better than no government and no order at all. Whether in the 1700's or today, people will tend to act in their own interest, and when there is no other organized mechanism to protect their interests, or at least balance everyone's competing interests, people will form their own alliances in their own interests. These organizations may be more egalitarian than others, but they will not necessarily be "noble," just self-interested, and not necessarily less vicious or brutal towards OTHER groups than any other self-interested enterprise.

So, pirates -- understandable? Shure. Sympathetic? Not necessarily.

How to deal with them -- hunt them down and kill them? Will probably not solve the problem, because the conditions that created them will remain and others will step into their place. Tolerate them/accomodate them? Well, that doesn't change anything either, and will only get more and more expensive. Ultimately the only thing that will work will be somehow establishing a functioning economy and society with a responsive government in the areas the pirates are coming from. Admittedly, neither quick nor easy.

BTW -- you can substitute "terrorist" for "pirate" anywhere above, and it will remain just as true.

[12voltman59]

I find the aspect of the article that somehow that some European mob operation is responsible for dumping wastes like this off Somalia that comes directly from Europe to be a figment of someone's imagination--such dumping might be taking place---but it just doesn't make much sense an organized crime operation is going to do something of this nature---it takes a major infrastructure system to operate the type of ships it would take, in the numbers necessary to make such a thing be a viable operation.

From the way the mobs operate--it simply does not fit their economic model---for them--it would be cheaper for them to set up a legit company--get all the necessary permits, insurances and the like to legally and properly dump such wastes than to run something like this.

The logistics involved in doing something of this nature and scale makes no sense at all.

If they are directly dumping such wastes anywhere--the local mobs are doing it with barely seaworthy vessels that load up just past dark--go out 20 miles or so past the international line where they should be reasonably free to do the deed without being caught--- that is still a trip of a few hours one way for their crappy freighters plunking along at ten knots just to get to the dumping grounds---then dumping the stuff and hauling butt back to port before first light to get ready for the next go round.

I haven't figured out just how far it is from say, Italy to Africa--but it has to be a trip of many thousands of nautical miles--and at round the clock "steaming"---it is close to a week's trip one way--burning thousands of gallons of expensive diesel fuel or bunker oil in the process.

In addition to that aspect of the cost----the longer you travel on a ship--past many nations---the more likely you are going to have your ships boarded and caught---and even if allowed to proceed---that is not going to happen without some palms getting very well greased---especially considering the "cargo!" That is one more major cost factor that cuts any sort of profits the Italian or Russian mobs would make on such an operation.

In order to be at all cost effective, for many reasons--a large scale shipping operation this would require would have to have some "legit" part to it in order to take place at all--all of the international rules regarding movement of ships simply makes it too difficult to do otherwise--even most of the drug shipments from South America to the US are done under the cover of legit shipping in large measure.

Whoever came up with this notion--clearly has not spent anytime around the sea and on ships---if those sorts of wastes are being dumped by someone off the coast of Somalia--it is being done by locals--not some Europeans transiting many thousands of miles from home--it simply does not make any sort of economic or any other sense for them to do that.

Now--the one scenario of dumping illegal wastes by a European crime outfit near Somalia that makes sense goes like this---under the cover of being legit cargo---you fill containers with the crap under a fake manifest and being shipped along with containers of the legit cargo---ship it to some shit hole country like Somalia now is---greasing the palms of those who do customs inspections and the like so that those containers don't get inspected, in fact those containers get targeted for special treatment--then the trucks come in--take the stuff to some place inland or load it on local ships that do the dumping--now--- that is a scenario that is not that expensive to set up and one that money could likely be made in running an operation like that. The thing with shipping legit commercial products to a place like Somalia--they don't have any money, so they don't buy and import much new, expensive retail items such as say, flat screen TVs, on any large scale-- about the only shipments going into Somalia of any consequence are those of food and other aid--that what was on the Maersk Alabama--food and other aid goods bound mostly for Somalia!!!!

Shipping of illegal products on a large scale is going on already with the illegal shipping of old computers and electronic gear to places spread all over the world for illegal dumping and stripping of the valuable materials they contain--even though those materials are highly toxic to those who handle them without taking necessary precautions---precautions they are not taking, so those people become ill thanks to their exposure.