Yet another reason I am Athiest....

[rolandiscool]

I just need to vent cause this really pisses me off. A guy I was friends with online for like 3 years suddenly sends me a message that he has to remove me from his friends list because his Youth Leader told him that it was his gay and bisexual friends that caused him to be that way. Of course, he made the dumb choice of trying to date his youth leader...but oh well. I'm just furious that they used his religion against him to teach him hate. I'm sorry, but any God wouldn't love you for being something you just are. Yet they are brainwashing this 20 year old to believe he is wrong. I'm waiting for the obit that says he killed himself because he couldn't handle the stresses. This just shows me yet another example as to how much better off we all would be without organized Religions throughout this world. Perhaps Dogma said it best when "God just wants you to have an idea...that's all.":2cents:

[darkeyes]

Perhaps Dogma said it best when "God just wants you to have an idea...that's all.":2cents:
God? Who that?:)

[tutunono]

Holy shit!! Way to go baby! Nice POV! And here I was thinking that I was all alone in the world!:bigrin:

[PaulWaul]

God? Who that?:)

I feel ya, who is this "god" person everyone keeps talking about?

He anuther hypocritical politician?

[FalconAngel]

It isn't all organized religion; just the monotheistic ones that do that kind of stupidity.

Most of the rest of the world's religions don't really care about sexuality.

None of our friends and aquaintances in the Wiccan community care that me or any of our other people are Bi/Gay/ Lesbian.

In the cases of monotheistic religions, it's just another thing to be used as a reason to create enemies to fight against.

[_Joe_]

I just need to vent cause this really pisses me off. A guy I was friends with online for like 3 years suddenly sends me a message that he has to remove me from his friends list because his Youth Leader told him that it was his gay and bisexual friends that caused him to be that way. Of course, he made the dumb choice of trying to date his youth leader...but oh well. I'm just furious that they used his religion against him to teach him hate. I'm sorry, but any God wouldn't love you for being something you just are. Yet they are brainwashing this 20 year old to believe he is wrong. I'm waiting for the obit that says he killed himself because he couldn't handle the stresses. This just shows me yet another example as to how much better off we all would be without organized Religions throughout this world. Perhaps Dogma said it best when "God just wants you to have an idea...that's all.":2cents:



You can't blame God for the fucked up human interpretations and intentions. Throughout history religion - any religion - gets twisted and contorted by peoples to fit the agenda they believe is right; and they then use the belief of God to push their agenda.

It's like the concept of Pastries. The french don't rely heavily on sugar and sweets for their pastries. Americans, on the average, have pastries heavy with sugars & sweets that they consider a simple french Napoleon very extravagent to look at, however its very bland to eat, thus their pastry sucks. Therefor, they must have Caramel Chocolate Cupcakes.

Both the Napoleon and the Cupcakes are like Religion, and the pastry is God. You can't say there is no pastry when there's multiple versions of them in every shape and form with some that are really bad for you and some that are somewhat OK.

DId that make sense ?

I don't know.

But now I want some cookies.

[Nick_C]

God? Who that?:)
I was wondering the same thing. I know not of this god of who they speak.

[rolandiscool]

You can't blame God for the fucked up human interpretations and intentions. Throughout history religion - any religion - gets twisted and contorted by peoples to fit the agenda they believe is right; and they then use the belief of God to push their agenda.

It's like the concept of Pastries. The french don't rely heavily on sugar and sweets for their pastries. Americans, on the average, have pastries heavy with sugars & sweets that they consider a simple french Napoleon very extravagent to look at, however its very bland to eat, thus their pastry sucks. Therefor, they must have Caramel Chocolate Cupcakes.

Both the Napoleon and the Cupcakes are like Religion, and the pastry is God. You can't say there is no pastry when there's multiple versions of them in every shape and form with some that are really bad for you and some that are somewhat OK.

DId that make sense ?

I don't know.

But now I want some cookies.


It made sense, and I think you got my point as to what I was saying...but DAMN YOU I WANT COOKIES TOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gfofbiguy]

You can't blame God for the fucked up human interpretations and intentions. Throughout history religion - any religion - gets twisted and contorted by peoples to fit the agenda they believe is right; and they then use the belief of God to push their agenda.

It's like the concept of Pastries. The french don't rely heavily on sugar and sweets for their pastries. Americans, on the average, have pastries heavy with sugars & sweets that they consider a simple french Napoleon very extravagent to look at, however its very bland to eat, thus their pastry sucks. Therefor, they must have Caramel Chocolate Cupcakes.

Both the Napoleon and the Cupcakes are like Religion, and the pastry is God. You can't say there is no pastry when there's multiple versions of them in every shape and form with some that are really bad for you and some that are somewhat OK.

DId that make sense ?

I don't know.

But now I want some cookies.

Joe, I like your analogy :)

I also like what rolandiscool said, because that's what I believe:
I'm sorry, but any God wouldn't love you for being something you just are.

Any God that I believe in, loves everyone and anyone, whoever they are, whatever they are.....

~~Gfofbiguy

[totchune]

Organized religions have NOTHING to do with anything "divine", since they define it according to human concepts.
The best term for such "divine" is the Taoist idea of "unnamable origin", and even this is a concept, since there is no beginning and no end to the universe (If "god" created the world, who created her?)

Dogmatic, dominant religions are a way for human to validate their stupidity, such as their prejudices and fears, and their wars.
If "god" says so, then it must be.

I prefer the Aborigine idea of the "creator" dreaming the world into being.
Noticed that they say DREAM, not nightmare...nightmare is the Christian, Muslim and Judaic way (all of them middle eastern religions rooted in the patriarchy).

[rolandiscool]

Talk about Karma....on LOGO right now is a documentary regarding the Islamic Views of Homosexuality and how they view it. (Funny....I think all Middle Eastern Religions all have the same similiar narrow view about it.)

[BrotherJack]

You can't blame God for the fucked up human interpretations and intentions. Throughout history religion - any religion - gets twisted and contorted by peoples to fit the agenda they believe is right; and they then use the belief of God to push their agenda.

It's like the concept of Pastries. The french don't rely heavily on sugar and sweets for their pastries. Americans, on the average, have pastries heavy with sugars & sweets that they consider a simple french Napoleon very extravagent to look at, however its very bland to eat, thus their pastry sucks. Therefor, they must have Caramel Chocolate Cupcakes.

Both the Napoleon and the Cupcakes are like Religion, and the pastry is God. You can't say there is no pastry when there's multiple versions of them in every shape and form with some that are really bad for you and some that are somewhat OK.

DId that make sense ?

I don't know.

But now I want some cookies.

You know, I like you Joe! You have wit and intellect. Your post was spot on and an incredibly good way to describe the difference between God (if there is one) and organised religion, of any sort.

I'm a Spiritualist...a Christian Spiritualist and the Church, which I belong to, is the only Church, to which I have belonged....in 40 years of being a Christian. Spiritualists have far more in common with the eastern religions and what would be called Pagan beliefs, be they Wicca or Australian Aboriginal or Native American. We honour them all.

Come to a Spiritualist Church and you will leave as you arrived, whatever your beliefs or disbelief, for we think that if an individual's person belief or disbelief, sits well with them, you leave well alone.

We don't discriminate because of race, creed, colour or sexuality...indeed many of our Mediums are gay....I don't know about any bisexual ones. People are just people. Members of the congregation may well have their own ideas, but under the umbrella of spiritualism....all are equal.

I've come a long way in the past 40 years and especially in the last three. I never believed that Jesus was the Son of God....always the Son of Man and there have been many Sons of Man. Never believed in a virgin birth or Judas betraying Jesus and I believe Jesus died on the cross...a martyr for the cause...the resurrection being a rebirth of faith in his followers...to go out and spread the word. I don't even believe in God anymore....but I do believe in the words of a very special man....and other special men and women who have preached wise words. But these are my views....others must seek their way through life and obtain that spirituality, they so want...on their own.

It's not a God that is to blame for any inequalities.....but humankind...and humankind can be very stupid.......and then also very wise!

I've been damned to hell by creationists...who have told me that hell was in the bowels of the earth.....My answer...let's start drilling!!! I've had fundmentalist Muslims tell me that music is evil.....so I sang to them...in type. I've had friends at my church, who have had born again Christian relatives, tell them that we spiritualists nail the cross to the wall, upside down. How ignorant and unknowing....when they have never visited such a church. I've had someone tell me that Jesus was crucified on April 14th.....I didn't ask if it was a Friday! And so on..............

Don't blame God/the Universe.....blame humankind...and all the frailties and flaws that go with being human.

By the way....I do believe in a sentient life force in this Universe....but it didn't create us...it grew with the Universe and is the vital spark in everyone and every thing and joins us all together and to every part of the Cosmos


Can they be chocolate chip cookies, with a caramel and chocolate coating? :bigrin:

[PolyLoveTriad]

It pisses me off when people inadvertently insult other people. You cant blame someone religious or not, for whatever reason for trying to help someone out of whatever situation they are in. I go to church, I believe in God, my pastor says no one is perfect, a sin is a sin, and God loves EVERYONE not just straight people so we should welcome people with open arms, straight, bi or gay.

I dont care what the kid told you how he came about removing you from his list, but obviously the kid cried out for help to his YP and it is possible the kid wants to make changes to his life and thats HIS choice. I say stop insulting other people because youre pissed off about one and simply deal with it.

Those who are "True" friends won't kick you to the curb.

[PolyLoveTriad]

Hey Joe, just baked cookies this morning, come on over

[mindfinding]

It pisses me off when people inadvertently insult other people. You cant blame someone religious or not, for whatever reason for trying to help someone out of whatever situation they are in. I go to church, I believe in God, my pastor says no one is perfect, a sin is a sin, and God loves EVERYONE not just straight people so we should welcome people with open arms, straight, bi or gay.

I dont care what the kid told you how he came about removing you from his list, but obviously the kid cried out for help to his YP and it is possible the kid wants to make changes to his life and thats HIS choice. I say stop insulting other people because youre pissed off about one and simply deal with it.

Those who are "True" friends won't kick you to the curb.

I couldn't have said it better at all. Bravo! I tip my hat to you.

[rissababynta]

It pisses me off when people inadvertently insult other people. You cant blame someone religious or not, for whatever reason for trying to help someone out of whatever situation they are in. I go to church, I believe in God, my pastor says no one is perfect, a sin is a sin, and God loves EVERYONE not just straight people so we should welcome people with open arms, straight, bi or gay.

I dont care what the kid told you how he came about removing you from his list, but obviously the kid cried out for help to his YP and it is possible the kid wants to make changes to his life and thats HIS choice. I say stop insulting other people because youre pissed off about one and simply deal with it.

Those who are "True" friends won't kick you to the curb.

I must say, i kind of agree with you here.

[TaylorMade]

It pisses me off when people inadvertently insult other people. You cant blame someone religious or not, for whatever reason for trying to help someone out of whatever situation they are in. I go to church, I believe in God, my pastor says no one is perfect, a sin is a sin, and God loves EVERYONE not just straight people so we should welcome people with open arms, straight, bi or gay.

I dont care what the kid told you how he came about removing you from his list, but obviously the kid cried out for help to his YP and it is possible the kid wants to make changes to his life and thats HIS choice. I say stop insulting other people because youre pissed off about one and simply deal with it.

Those who are "True" friends won't kick you to the curb.

Make 3... have I told you lately that I love you?

*Taylor*

[_Joe_]

You know... sounds to me like the kid is confused. And most of us were confused at one time, and we look for help and answers.

It's a shame his path led him to closing his mind, and it's a shame he didnt have someone better to help him into a different direction.

[void()]

Difficult subject to broach. I agree with the op's point of view. Even Taoism brings in God. It also teaches homosexuality is a sin, or wrong.

I don't have any religion, except perhaps reason, because no religion will have me. Which lends to a bit of isolation, frustration. I am not militant in protesting against any form of belief. Everyone finds their own way.

It was a shame you're friend was led to hating. Of course, there are always six versions of the same song. The song no matter, remains the same. We cannot affect lasting change in the lyrics.

We are the proverbial dust in the wind, passing through, no knowledge of whence we came or go. Such awareness can often lead folks to seek guidance, or an easy 'answer' or 'meaning'. Who says there must be either?

That's about where I stand. My boyfriend is Christian, though I gather from him it is pretty 'relaxed' a denomination. I respect his belief wholly. Don't blame him personally for the Burning Times, or those in Dubai who are slaughtered daily. He is not a party in that stuff. But it only takes one bad apple.

Sadly, I will admit to feeling distanced at times. Love my guy, I truly do. But life is often queer like that.

[rissababynta]

As a pagan, I am supposed to live my life as balanced as possible. It makes sense for me to be into both men and women...

Hooray for me!

[Biguybob]

Just because you don't believe in God does not mean he is not there. I can choose to believe that you are not there just bart of my dream. Those holly rollers do remember Jesus said Forgive others as you would have me forgive you. And I have looked for anything Jesus said about homosexuality pro or con and can't find anything. I too have no respect for organized religion. I have witnessed the works of God and sometimes he has worked through me. I also believe that atheists are right when you are dead your dead lights out nobody home. Jesus said so. He said if you believe in me I will give you everlasting life. Given a choice I choose to live forever. Heaven or hell depends on how I follow his teachings. the closest thing Jesus said about being bi/gay is do unto others as you would have them do unto you. maybee I should start a thread on this

[Hephaestion]

Don't the vast majority of belief systems have common good as their core value? Believing that it is good to be nice to one another and adopting a common behaviour pattern (bit like a Highway Code for road users) by showing some form of self dicipline and consideration for others seems a good idea. One has to remind oneself that a great many people have clutched their faith against all adversity and been brave enough to enter worlds of conflict and savagery in order to help others. Elsewhere, some need organised religion to help them through their more 'minor' burdens in life.

That said there are countless records of human misinterpretation, manipulation and malpractice. So that is where it goes wrong. It is those that are corrupt that need eliminating not the belief in goodwill.

As for how this thread started, it might be a good idea, at least for the time being, to steer clear of anyone who is gullible enough at the age of 20 to believe what others have told him as regards his sexual orientation. Maybe he is just not convinced of what he wants yet. After all we do not have any precision in what was or was not said.

PS - Love the bit in Two Mules for Sister Sarah when she eventually confesses to her real identity and says "When I go down on all fours on Sunday it ain't for praying". After the revelations of compensation awards by the Roman Catholic Church, this must be something that their priests have been trying to understand for themselves.

.

[goldenfinger]

I'm an Athiest too,,,,but, without sins, I think our sex life would be boring,,:bigrin::bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Just because you don't believe in God does not mean he is not there.
Jus cos u do don mean 'e is...;)

[elian]

I think the closest label you could put on me is Gnostic. I draw my faith and inspiration from many different sources and I'm actively working to try and bridge the differences.

The worst thing that humanity ever did was take the "human" out of religion. I can agree that many of the institutionalized faiths over the years have caused much grief and hardship with their "interpretation" that justifies their own values and actions. I do believe in a divine presence, but I also believe in personal action and taking responsibility for those actions.

I know the human mind looks for patterns and causes ALL the time, trying to make sense of being dumped into an environment with little knowledge that is what any neural network driven creature would do..but to reduce everything down to bare equations ALSO seems to deny part of the human experience.

So I try to seek meaning where there is no meaning - I have come to think that just like the valence theory of electrons we are ALL seeking to achieve a balanced configuration as a whole. I look down at the ground from an airplane and see all of the networks, all of the systems we have built to link ourselves together. I look in a microscope at the intricate crystalline patterns in a flake of snow,

Whatever this world is, it sure seems alive - that is to say full of potential, if you had the power to think of something in your mind - and then turn that thought into reality - some people might call that "magic" - and yet we do that here all the time..and learn about the consequences in the process.

I suppose it is a great and wonderful fantasy to think that there is so much order in the world..alas so it is to be human I suppose. I guess I would do well to count my blessings.

"To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour." - William Blake

[MissyMissy]

i have A LOT of issues with religion. it is not the religion but some of the people in it who i have issues with.
but i love my dad despite him being a serious christian. but my dad is a rare type.
my dad knows this...
love one another.
he loves my cousin very much. my cousin is gay. my dad yelled at my cousin's dad for kicking my cousin out of the family. my cousin and his dad did not forgive each other until the day my uncle died.
my dad has strong beliefs. but my dad is a very good man.
he says he doesn't care what someone is. just it is not for him so don't push it on me. he has no issue with people because thier sexuality is different than his. he just wants his sexuality to be respected as well.
and you can't blame others for what you are. and others aren't worth the trouble who don't accept responsibility for who they are and blame others. my dad is right.
missymissy

[elian]

There are some Christians I really admire MissyMissy - your dad sounds like one of them.

They practice their faith directly by living the parables Jesus taught when he was ALIVE..they are often quiet, but strong in their faith. These are the ones I would be most likely to emulate.

There is another group who goes around making a tremendous amount of noise - saying the same thing over and over again as if they are trying desperately to convince themselves of something.

I don't have to be convinced, I already KNOW..and I would think that maybe this other group of individuals could do a whole lot more good in the world with the energy the good lord gave them if they concentrated on putting the values and beliefs of the man they idolize into action instead of using him as a martyr and a shield to rally behind.

I say I know - because for all of the logical things you can deduce in this world, I would not be where I am today if it were not for human hearts filled with divine love and compassion that believed in me and gave me a chance to prove my own potential.

Apologizes if I've offended anyone - I know those are strong words..

[rolandiscool]

It pisses me off when people inadvertently insult other people. You cant blame someone religious or not, for whatever reason for trying to help someone out of whatever situation they are in. I go to church, I believe in God, my pastor says no one is perfect, a sin is a sin, and God loves EVERYONE not just straight people so we should welcome people with open arms, straight, bi or gay.


I dont care what the kid told you how he came about removing you from his list, but obviously the kid cried out for help to his YP and it is possible the kid wants to make changes to his life and thats HIS choice. I say stop insulting other people because youre pissed off about one and simply deal with it.

Those who are "True" friends won't kick you to the curb.


I couldn't have said it better at all. Bravo! I tip my hat to you.


I must say, i kind of agree with you here.


Make 3... have I told you lately that I love you?

*Taylor*


You know... sounds to me like the kid is confused. And most of us were confused at one time, and we look for help and answers.

It's a shame his path led him to closing his mind, and it's a shame he didnt have someone better to help him into a different direction.


Perhaps I didn't make it clear....he blocked me and sent a blanket message. My e-mails are blocked and so are my im's. Sorry I wasn't a true friend...perhaps I should like stalk him and find out where he lives and go find him? How about I call up the police station down there tell them they have a butt pirate on the loose and ask where he lives? Or better yet, take out a full page newspaper ad: "God didn't say you can't be friends with gay's and bi's just because you are one"?

He closed his mind too quick due to fear before I could get a chance to talk to him, so in all honesty I did all I could. What I was hoping for was suggestions as to why he feels the way he does and why he would let a message that was decided upon by guys in funny clothing in Rome a few century's back as the true word of God tell him that he is a bad person? More or less this was closure for myself, because there is no way I can get to him now.

And yes, I totally meant to insult the really religious people here. Oh yeah...I so have nothing better to do than make hate towards others. Keep crying for me please...I love tears...they taste salty. Better start making more martyers....we have lots more buildings to crash planes into and nobody needs the wood from a cross so lets build houses! :)


Perhaps it was the fact I pointed out his religion told him he was a bad person that I have an issue with. :) But I digress...I have spoke against God I suppose cause magically we can assume he HAS to be a he and that woman are second class to men. (You realize religion was used to say Blacks were second to whites? That if we don't kill all the infidels we'll burn in hell too? How about killing innocent people for 72 virgins....72!??? FUCK I can't even find ONE anymore!)

So let's say my POINT by using that title was to clearly mark that MAN has perversed something that was to be GOOD. If you FOLLOW all true cults they clearly claim that you don't kill others or harm others or make others feel like they are worthless. Yet it seems that many people have taken their love of "god, God, gods" to the extreme and I was just mearly passing this point along. So if I accidentally offended you, perhaps I wasn't the one with the problem in the first place. I didn't say you were bad because of what you believed in, I said people take out of context what was supposed to be something good and make it into their own personal laws.....wait...that sounds like G.W. BUSH!!!! Oh great....I've just opened up a whole new can of warms....NINE FUCKING ELEVEN! :)



***I know most of you are enjoying the satire here.....those who are not...move along...nothing to see here, mmmmkay?******


****And I don't put philosphy religions such as Buddism, Teoism, Hinduism, Wiccian, etc, into that above argument. They don't seem to want to kill man kind's soul like the Monotheistic Cults typically do.*****



****Sitting for the fireworks. But if you realized my Satire perhaps my point has been made! :)******

[rolandiscool]

Jus cos u do don mean 'e is...;)



Perhaps we should share the tale of the FSM? He's lovely.....but soon we will have Evenglicial FSM People, and True FSM people....and even some people who claim that FSM came to them long after being cooked in the pot! :)

Love you darkeyes!!! You make good points! :)

[void()]

LOL Not the FSM!

I am still busy trying to worship the IPU. The main issue is the IPU keeps changing colors.

elian makes a good point about those rare folks who are truly divine in as much as a person can be. Seen a few of those sort myself, especially a star that doesn't laugh at me. He just smiles and says it's alright. :)

Well, I'm off to read more Dirk Gently. The electronic monk still believes everything is pink.

[elian]

Oh no honey, I don't think that you necessarily have to chew on wafers or go to some transcendental guru - I think that every person is capable of acting with grace. The human spirit is quite resilient - we are all capable of great loving works of compassion as well as great malevolence.

Question is, where does that love come from? I guess you could say it's all hormones and chemicals - but then why go through all that trouble to MAKE such a complex system of cells, peptides and amino acids?

[elian]

Here is one of my favorite interviews with agnostic Margaret Atwood - http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_atwood.html

If you don't have high speed there is also a link to read the transcript.

Sorry if I am monopolizing this thread. If you have more time the interview with Jeanette Winterson at the top of the same page is also kind of humorous.

roland my friend, I can understand your frustration - LGBT people have some of the most tortured souls I know and institutionalized religion ABSOLUTELY does play a big part in that - by promoting systematic discrimination and calling into question people's self-worth some of these places have caused more harm than good over the years.

I guess that's why I advocate so hard for saying that ALL people are a spark of the divine - sorry if that grates against your nerves..I am truly sorry that you cannot reach out to your friend - hopefully some day he will be mature enough to make the decision for himself.

"Prayers for Bobby" was actually a very emotional movie..<sighs>

[PolyLoveTriad]

Perhaps I didn't make it clear....he blocked me and sent a blanket message. My e-mails are blocked and so are my im's. Sorry I wasn't a true friend...perhaps I should like stalk him and find out where he lives and go find him? How about I call up the police station down there tell them they have a butt pirate on the loose and ask where he lives? Or better yet, take out a full page newspaper ad: "God didn't say you can't be friends with gay's and bi's just because you are one"?

Ok, HE chose to do this. Do you really believe that someone from his church held a gun to his head and said, you block that guy are we are going to kill you? He chose to do that. NO WHERE did I say YOU werent a true friend. I said, a true friend wont kick you to the curb. Meaning, if he was your friend, if he IS your friend, he will not kick YOU to the curb. Not the other way around. NO WHERE in my bible does it say to treat others in any bad manner. We have a gay man in our church, and I go to a Free Methodist church and this man is well liked and accepted because God loves EVERYONE. Im not going to get into some debate about wether or not God is real or not real Im just stating what I feel to be the truth.

He closed his mind too quick due to fear before I could get a chance to talk to him, so in all honesty I did all I could. What I was hoping for was suggestions as to why he feels the way he does and why he would let a message that was decided upon by guys in funny clothing in Rome a few century's back as the true word of God tell him that he is a bad person? More or less this was closure for myself, because there is no way I can get to him now.

I really doubt that anyone in his church told him he is a bad person. But I do know the kid must have said something, asked for help, whatever he said to get people he trusts to help him out of whatever is making him hurt, confused, etc. Thats partly what the church is for, for reaching out to other people who believes the same as you and leaning on those people. Do you think it is at all possible that it is HIS belief he is doing something HE feels he shouldnt do and HE asked for help to change his life? Ive seen it happen before. It wasnt the church who went after a girl who was bi to change her, she got on her knee's and asked for help to change. Thats THEIR choice. It has nothing to do with organized religion but how one feels about their self and their personal relationship with God. Its their choice and yes, some of us who are good friends to those who choose to take a different path get left at the wayside, its still up to them.

And yes, I totally meant to insult the really religious people here. Oh yeah...I so have nothing better to do than make hate towards others. Keep crying for me please...I love tears...they taste salty. Better start making more martyers....we have lots more buildings to crash planes into and nobody needs the wood from a cross so lets build houses! :)

As for that statement, well that was simply just a bit ignorant on your part. I'll tell you, I dont beliefe in wiccan religion, pagan, Buddha, nor many other religions. But Im telling you right here and now Id fight tooth and claw for people on this site like rissa who is pagan, because I dont look at anyone and see what they believe, I see the beautiful wonderful people they are. I will also tell you that I will not shed one tear for you as you are simply nobody to me here. You can insult me, you can insult everyone on this site, see what it gets you. Ignorance... "We have lots more buildings to crash planes into" Really nice, I have to ask, why do you hate yourself so much you feel the need to bash people in a place they consider home?


Perhaps it was the fact I pointed out his religion told him he was a bad person that I have an issue with. :) But I digress...I have spoke against God I suppose cause magically we can assume he HAS to be a he and that woman are second class to men. (You realize religion was used to say Blacks were second to whites? That if we don't kill all the infidels we'll burn in hell too? How about killing innocent people for 72 virgins....72!??? FUCK I can't even find ONE anymore!)

So let's say my POINT by using that title was to clearly mark that MAN has perversed something that was to be GOOD. If you FOLLOW all true cults they clearly claim that you don't kill others or harm others or make others feel like they are worthless. Yet it seems that many people have taken their love of "god, God, gods" to the extreme and I was just mearly passing this point along. So if I accidentally offended you, perhaps I wasn't the one with the problem in the first place. I didn't say you were bad because of what you believed in, I said people take out of context what was supposed to be something good and make it into their own personal laws.....wait...that sounds like G.W. BUSH!!!! Oh great....I've just opened up a whole new can of warms....NINE FUCKING ELEVEN! :)

*shakes head* Just let it go, the may just have used his religion as an excuse because he didnt want to talk to you anymore. Doesnt make sense to me either I know, youre so extremely pleasant.



***I know most of you are enjoying the satire here.....those who are not...move along...nothing to see here, mmmmkay?******


****And I don't put philosphy religions such as Buddism, Teoism, Hinduism, Wiccian, etc, into that above argument. They don't seem to want to kill man kind's soul like the Monotheistic Cults typically do.*****



****Sitting for the fireworks. But if you realized my Satire perhaps my point has been made! :)******

Ignorance is a terrible thing to waste huh

[PolyLoveTriad]

Make 3... have I told you lately that I love you?

*Taylor*

I love you too Taylor! *hugs* havent seen you in forever!

[_Joe_]

SInce you quoted what I said Roland, I think you misinterpreted what I meant by it being a shame he didnt have someone better to turn to - I was NOT implying it was your fault on any level. I generally mean it's a shame he turned to a group that encourages him to close his mind.

I think we all can say at one time or another we were confused and in need of answers or dialoge to figure things out, and seeing how we're all here instead of Phelp's church holding signs out somehwere, we were lucky to figure things out in a good way.

[rolandiscool]

SInce you quoted what I said Roland, I think you misinterpreted what I meant by it being a shame he didnt have someone better to turn to - I was NOT implying it was your fault on any level. I generally mean it's a shame he turned to a group that encourages him to close his mind.

I think we all can say at one time or another we were confused and in need of answers or dialoge to figure things out, and seeing how we're all here instead of Phelp's church holding signs out somehwere, we were lucky to figure things out in a good way.


Okay, sorry Joe, my bad! I was like...wtf I like joe...why he rippin on me! :) We cool?

[rolandiscool]

Ignorance is a terrible thing to waste huh


Okay, I get what you mean. I just sounded like you were all telling me I was the bad person for not helping him. I wanted to just hammer my point home there wasn't much more I could do. So sorry I miss understood what you said and I'm sorry I didn't get my point a cross in a less sarcastic way. :) but you gotta admit, I can be pretty funny when I'm trying to be sarcastic. :) *hugs* We all cool?

[FalconAngel]

Okay, I get what you mean. I just sounded like you were all telling me I was the bad person for not helping him. I wanted to just hammer my point home there wasn't much more I could do. So sorry I miss understood what you said and I'm sorry I didn't get my point a cross in a less sarcastic way. :) but you gotta admit, I can be pretty funny when I'm trying to be sarcastic. :) *hugs* We all cool?


I am certain that you did everything that you could, but the hatemongers got to him first.

Not to sound cruel, but he chose his fate and if he rescues himself from them in time, they will have done only minimal damage. If he doesn't rescue himself from them, then they will have damaged, not only him, but everyone he attempts to make a permanent relationship with, from this day forward.

You did what you could and that is all you can do. That makes you a better person than the hate-mongers that took him away from any real help.

[FalconAngel]

On another, semi-related subject, I present for everyone's amusement and bemusement;

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/20/creationist-heh-master-of-science-haha-degree-hahahahaha/

How about a Masters of Science in Creationism?

[TaylorMade]

I love you too Taylor! *hugs* havent seen you in forever!

Eh. . .Scarcity is a good thing for me right now.

*Taylor*

[PolyLoveTriad]

Okay, I get what you mean. I just sounded like you were all telling me I was the bad person for not helping him. I wanted to just hammer my point home there wasn't much more I could do. So sorry I miss understood what you said and I'm sorry I didn't get my point a cross in a less sarcastic way. :) but you gotta admit, I can be pretty funny when I'm trying to be sarcastic. :) *hugs* We all cool?

Yeah, all is forgiven :)

[PolyLoveTriad]

I am certain that you did everything that you could, but the hatemongers got to him first.

Not to sound cruel, but he chose his fate and if he rescues himself from them in time, they will have done only minimal damage. If he doesn't rescue himself from them, then they will have damaged, not only him, but everyone he attempts to make a permanent relationship with, from this day forward.

You did what you could and that is all you can do. That makes you a better person than the hate-mongers that took him away from any real help.

if thats the kids beliefs then does that make him a hate monger as well? Not everyone who believes in god, hates

[alegrias]

Don't blame God. Those PEOPLE are jerks.

[darkeyes]

Don't blame God. Those PEOPLE are jerks.

God hasta b 2 b truly h8ed...

[Hephaestion]

Not sure that I believe that institutionalized religion is the culprit.

Take the famous Institution called the US Govt. One charlie makes it an oppressive instrument whereas another turns it into the hope for the future. So it is with all Insitituions in that they reflect the people who comprise them.

From 1st hand experience I know that long before the amelioration in attitudes towards LGBTs, the clergy that I encountered (1950's onwards) were very understanding and generous about these lifestyles. Some went so far as to be honest about their own inclinations. They hailed from the 3 major religions of Europe: Protestant; Catholic; Orthodox. This did not detract from their duties as spiritual leaders. Although the ones who had the hardest job were the Roman Catholics.

A reminder that the insitutional Church of England (effectively Protestant) is taking a stand on the side of homosexuality and trying to drag the rest of the world into this understanding. The Roman Catholic faith is recently in acceptance of evolution and that intelligent design is no longer mandatory. As for Orthodoxy, the Greeks have practices stretching back into antiquity so it is nothing new for them.

Back to how this thread started - It doesn't matter whether the chat was for 5 minutes or 5 years. The best advice is to let the lad go to make up his own mind. He is entitled to do what he wants. Unless this lad is challenged in some fashion then eventually he will do what is best for himself. Right now it just looks like a bitter contested ownership.
.

[darkeyes]

A reminder that the insitutional Church of England (effectively Protestant) is taking a stand on the side of homosexuality and trying to drag the rest of the world into this understanding.
.

Very limited undastandin Heph... ok 2 b gay long asya don do the sex... also they didn cova themsels wiv glory wen it cums 2 callin gay marrriage "marriage".. wy else they called civil unions?? An 1 or 2 otha lil bits n pieces wich make me dubious... Church a Scotland not much betta lemme say.. if at all..

[_Joe_]

Yeah, all is forgiven :)

He should earn our forgiveness.

/me unzips

[FalconAngel]

if thats the kids beliefs then does that make him a hate monger as well? Not everyone who believes in god, hates

Self-loathing would be his case. Induced by idiotic right-wing Christian influence.

Not all Christians are hate-mongers, but far too many are.

They hate what he is and are going to try to change him into something that he's not.

These are the same types of folks that, with little more effort, would be joining up in the WBC.

They are the types that tell us that Homosexuality is an abomination against God and at the same time ignore that, since they believe that their God made everything, then it must not be.

I think that many, if not most, of us have seen these things before. People like that are hate-mongers and every few decades, they need a new enemy.

When it no longer works for them to hate non-straight sexuality, then they will find something else to attack. They need an enemy to feel as if they are "doing God's work".
Sadly, in this case, their need to try to "cure" homosexuals of their supposed affliction. It is stupid, but people like that cannot think for themselves, on a grand scale. They blindly follow their church's doctrine without questioning the inconsistencies.

It is unfortunate that there are so many sheep in Christianity, but then again, there is more than one reason that the leaders refer to them as their "flock".

[Hephaestion]

Very limited undastandin Heph... ok 2 b gay long asya don do the sex... also they didn cova themsels wiv glory wen it cums 2 callin gay marrriage "marriage".. wy else they called civil unions?? An 1 or 2 otha lil bits n pieces wich make me dubious... Church a Scotland not much betta lemme say.. if at all..

One has to give the organisations that have shaped our history and our present day lives some leeway. The marraige vows do contain the words "marriage is between one man and one woman". That holds for civil and church weddings in western, largely Christian, society.

However dressed, the marriage is to do with responsibility for another and is ultimately financial in character. Ok, so the civil side has adjusted to recognise same sex partnerships/ unions / marriages (a rose by any other name). One cannot expect the Church to follow suit - it is just not in their code. So does it matter?

Most of the submissions here have been about abandoning the Church and its beliefs anyway and that is how it is in English society overall. Secondly, a religion that changes its baseline has effectivley committed suicide anyway and whatever replaces it is new. The Churches are (I prefer the the British saying) caught between the devil and the deep blue sea .

But from what I have seen, even in Religious organisations, there is tolerance of homosexuality provided that it is not in everyone's face and does not involve other species and/or minors.

The question must remain - what fills the power vacuum with the demise of the organised Christian Church? Organised Islam? We are now consulting the Islamic Council on many matters in the UK

Love
Heph

[darkeyes]

One has to give the organisations that have shaped our history and our present day lives some leeway. The marraige vows do contain the words "marriage is between one man and one woman". That holds for civil and church weddings in western, largely Christian, society.

However dressed, the marriage is to do with responsibility for another and is ultimately financial in character. Ok, so the civil side has adjusted to recognise same sex partnerships/ unions / marriages (a rose by any other name). One cannot expect the Church to follow suit - it is just not in their code. So does it matter?

Most of the submissions here have been about abandoning the Church and its beliefs anyway and that is how it is in English society overall. Secondly, a religion that changes its baseline has effectivley committed suicide anyway and whatever replaces it is new. The Churches are (I prefer the the British saying) caught between the devil and the deep blue sea .

But from what I have seen, even in Religious organisations, there is tolerance of homosexuality provided that it is not in everyone's face and does not involve other species and/or minors.

The question must remain - what fills the power vacuum with the demise of the organised Christian Church? Organised Islam? We are now consulting the Islamic Council on many matters in the UK

Love
Heph
Not sayin everythin the CofE or CofS did wos bad Heph..jus don hav a cosy glow that u seem 2 hav bout 'em wen it cums 2 gay affairs...

[*pan*]

well i'm not athiest i am pagan and have many gods but we share the same disgust of the mono organizied religions brain washing and breeding hatred. any organization that breeds hatred should be banned lol. :three:

[darkeyes]

Wiccan, Pagans, and Atheists can be just as bad if not worse than Christians when it comes to attacking people and shoving their religion/philosophy down other people's throats.

My gods predate even the Pagan ones, and are far better teachers than they ever will be, and while Hinduism doesn't technically accept homosexuality, it's generally not a major issue and we don't try to change GLBT people.

Ehhhhhh.. scuse me.. r Gods wich pre-date pagan Gods.. not ehhhhhhh... pagan Gods???

[rissababynta]

Ehhhhhh.. scuse me.. r Gods wich pre-date pagan Gods.. not ehhhhhhh... pagan Gods???

Uhhh doy haha. Love ya Fran.

As a pagan, i do not find disgust in any religion, mono or otherwise. The only time I ever feel disgust with something related to religion is when people are over critical or filled with hate, or do or say horrible things to others, then blame it all on their religion. Oher than that, whether I agree with a christian's (for example) POV or not, I have massive respect for the people who are true christians. Ya know, Pagans and Christians have more in commn then you'd think.

[TaylorMade]

Ehhhhhh.. scuse me.. r Gods wich pre-date pagan Gods.. not ehhhhhhh... pagan Gods???

Paganism can mean one of two things. . . a general statement of Deities (term first used by Christians, but, I'll broaden it in this case) outside your recognized cultural group, or that European concept of paganism that is the 2nd cousin to Wicca. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism)

I'm figuring BisexualIndian is... Hindu, and Hinduism DOES predate European Paganism/Druidism/Wicca.

TECHNICALLY, Bisexual Indian is right.

*Taylor*

[elian]

The Bible may be the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man - and men have seen fit to distort the wording to suit their own agenda.

I guess I should speak out of love, it is just very frustrating to know that millions of teenagers are feeling isolated, alone and worthless because the people who go to their church hate the way "God made them". It is not God, but the ignorance, fear and selfishness of other humans that bring these feelings of shame and self-loathing to those who are outside of the "majority" in society.

My great grandmother was a devout RC follower - she laid on her deathbed, clinging on for dear life because she thought that if she passed on Samhain that some demons were going to drag her soul to hell. Lesson for me - it's very easy to abuse and distort the principles of ANY faith. If you can't be strong enough in your faith to find comfort in the darkest of times why bother to have it? The purpose of religion in my mind is to bring hope and healing to people - not all of these other negative emotions. Religion should be inclusive, if you want "exclusive" go join a country club instead.

I guess I like the story WITH the tiger better than the one without. That and so many "strange coincidences" have happened to me throughout my life that I am convinced of something beyond the tangible - maybe that we just don't have instruments to really measure right now.

[Hephaestion]

Paganism can mean one of two things. . . a general statement of Deities (term first used by Christians, but, I'll broaden it in this case) outside your recognized cultural group, or that European concept of paganism that is the 2nd cousin to Wicca. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism)

I'm figuring BisexualIndian is... Hindu, and Hinduism DOES predate European Paganism/Druidism/Wicca.

TECHNICALLY, Bisexual Indian is right.

*Taylor*

Perhaps one accepts the term pagan is a Christian construct and it embraces all non-Christian religion including Hinduism. However to say that Hinduism predates 'European' paganism is an empty fact.

All one can say is that a written record has survived of a particular religion which can be dated.

The odds are that belief in one or more non-Christian deities existed long before the even Hinduism and as such must be pagan by definition.

That is almost certainly what Darkeyes was aluding to. Semantics but relevant nevertheless.

[chulainn2]

An old saying but so true- there are no athiests in a crashing airplane.

[totchune]

The Bible may be the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man - and men have seen fit to distort the wording to suit their own agenda

I agree with you on agenda, but the bible is not the word of "God", it is the work of man (you notice I wrote man, not woman...women were excluded in these patriarchal cultures).

If Joshua (his real name) ever existed, no one knows who he was, and what he really said, and how he really lived. If he existed, he was obviously enlightened, and a teacher as well as a "troublemaker" (telling the truth is always revolutionary in an unreal world), but what he was not was the "son of God", born of a "virgin", and sent as a sacrificial lamb to bleed and die to redeem humanity.

Google Zeitgeist, order the movie, and watch. You will be extremely surprised by what you will learn about Christian mythology.

[totchune]

Perhaps one accepts the term pagan is a Christian construct and it embraces all non-Christian religion including Hinduism. However to say that Hinduism predates 'European' paganism is an empty fact.

All one can say is that a written record has survived of a particular religion which can be dated.

The odds are that belief in one or more non-Christian deities existed long before the even Hinduism and as such must be pagan by definition.

That is almost certainly what Darkeyes was aluding to. Semantics but relevant nevertheless.

I agree about Hinduism and written records...
Shamanism is the oldest religion in the world.

Shamanism did not necessarily deal with hundreds of "deities"...some shamanic religions recognize "spirits" (or consciousness) in all things of nature (meaning all things are actually vibrant with spiritual energies or "frequencies", to use contemporary terms) but also recognize one creator who originated them all.

The western world had to come up with the concept that the world was dead (no consciousness except in human form) in order to desecrate it and fuck it up without remorse.
It used both science (materialism) and religion (destroying the "pagan" understanding of consciousness-or "spirits"-in all life) to do so.

And today, because for centuries we have been brainwashed to think all was dead around us, because we still think that a tree is just wood waiting to be made into junk mail and a river just a waterway to be used as a sewer by industry, guess what? ALL IS BECOMING DEAD AROUND US.

We indeed create our own reality, as all things originate from consciousness, good and bad.

[FalconAngel]

Wiccan, Pagans, and Atheists can be just as bad if not worse than Christians when it comes to attacking people and shoving their religion/philosophy down other people's throats.

My gods predate even the Pagan ones, and are far better teachers than they ever will be, and while Hinduism doesn't technically accept homosexuality, it's generally not a major issue and we don't try to change GLBT people.

As Gardnerian (1st and 2nd degrees, respectively) we know what you are saying.

We have gotten quite a bit of that, even within our own community. Non-oathbound traditions and non-oathbound eclectics oftentimes dislike us to the point of seeking reasons to snub us.

Got booted off of a seekers list once because of the difference between Wiccan and Neo-Wiccan. Apparently, the definition was offensive to some.

So much for acceptance.

But again, Monotheistic religions; Christianity and Islam particularly, tend to be extremely intolerant.

As far as who's gods have been around longest, that would really be a tie, across all cultures.

Since the first time a human looked around and thought "where did I come from? What causes the days and nights to get longer or shorter?" The first time that anyone thought anything like that, they had found their Gods. The only real difference is the names of the Gods.

[totchune]

Wiccan, Pagans, and Atheists can be just as bad if not worse than Christians when it comes to attacking people and shoving their religion/philosophy down other people's throats.

My gods predate even the Pagan ones, and are far better teachers than they ever will be, and while Hinduism doesn't technically accept homosexuality, it's generally not a major issue and we don't try to change GLBT people.

My God is older than your God, my god is better looking than your God, My God is bigger than your God, my God can beat up your God, etc...

That's what conflicts between religions come down to.

Not very enlightened, let alone intelligent.

A person who is secure in his/her beliefs couldn't care less what another believes.

Live and let live!

Well, except for those who believe in human sacrifice, such as the war makers and weapon manufacturers and traders.

[totchune]

Human beings will always struggle to outdo and upstage one another...Even Buddhists who make an effort to discard their ego consciousness make sure everyone can admire how selfless they have become, and how high they have "risen" ABOVE OTHERS by seeking selflessness.
Taoists, who are supposed to be humble and poor in spirit, become "masters".

It would be very amusing watching all those little human creatures from space (any aliens out there?) struggling to outperform each other in all imaginable ways, in a global pissing contest.

It's also a matter of clubs, groups, gangs, tribes, clans, nations (nations are nothing more than glorified gangs, with huge drive-by's they call war).

There is the group, and then there are the "outsiders". We "love" the "insiders", who are "like us", and we "hate" the "outsiders".
Those are the rules of the murderous game humans play.

We create a thousand reasons to despise, reject, fear, hate the "outsiders".
Disagree with the group, or sneeze differently, and you are on the outside looking in.

We still behave like tribes of chimpanzees.

Meanwhile, where the fuck is the love?

[rissababynta]

[QUOTE=totchune;126258]

A person who is secure in his/her beliefs couldn't care less what another believes.

Live and let live!

QUOTE]

Amen to that!

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=totchune;126258]

A person who is secure in his/her beliefs couldn't care less what another believes.

Live and let live!

QUOTE]

Amen to that!
Me don care wot ne 1 else believes till it starts impingin on me own beliefs an the beliefs of othas.. ya kno the type Riss.. racists..anti gay.. xenophobes.. fascists.. nazis.. stalinists.. warmongers..o yea.. certain religious groups who won let peeps liv in peace.. an a few othas...

[FalconAngel]

[QUOTE=rissababynta;126272]
Me don care wot ne 1 else believes till it starts impingin on me own beliefs an the beliefs of othas.. ya kno the type Riss.. racists..anti gay.. xenophobes.. fascists.. nazis.. stalinists.. warmongers..o yea.. certain religious groups who won let peeps liv in peace.. an a few othas...

Well said.

Unlike a lot of other religions (and other groups), you will not find Pagans/Wiccans knocking on your door to try to convert you. We only accept those who are seeking us.
Sometimes, we make it difficult for them to do so, just to make sure that it is us that they seek and they are serious about following our religion.

Sadly, there are far too many folks out there that insist that their way is the only way and everyone must bow to that will.

[rolandiscool]

An old saying but so true- there are no athiests in a crashing airplane.

Yep! We don't crash them into towers! :)

[Hephaestion]

(Calum answers the door bell) Hello.

(Smiling unrealistically) Hello! We'd like to talk to you about our God

(Calum) Och! C'mon in, I'd like to talk to you about my Suzuki 350

(Perplexed but recapturing the unrealistic smile - they make their way in to the front room) Here is a leaflet telling you about our God - but it will cost you 50 pence.

(Calum) Ok, here is a copy of my Suzuki 350 workshop manual - that will cost you £3.50

(Eventually the unrealistic smile turns into a worried frown as they struggle to reach the front door)) We must be going now

(Calum) Must you be going so soon? Call back again any time now. I've enjoyed our chat

(wittering, they disappear in to the distance quickly)

TV series Absolutely from yesteryear

[elian]

I agree with you on agenda, but the bible is not the word of "God", it is the work of man (you notice I wrote man, not woman...women were excluded in these patriarchal cultures).
Notice I was very careful to use the term "man" as well.



Google Zeitgeist, order the movie, and watch. You will be extremely surprised by what you will learn about Christian mythology.
Since we are trading recommendations..

On the issue of patriarchy this was an unbelievably powerful movie to me although it may be hard to get ahold of:

http://www.clpearson.com/mother_wove_morning.htm

I read "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels a long time ago - at the time it seemed easy to read - now reading it is like reading a piece of granite - funny thing the way books work:

http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532

I've also read a few books by Bishop John Shelby Spong - he seems intent on reforming the movement to make it more inclusive:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Christianity-World-Traditional-Faith/dp/0060670630/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945146&sr=1-6

And this book by Stephen Mitchell:

http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-According-Jesus-Translation-Unbelievers/dp/0060923210/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945387&sr=1-2

This one actually has an answer for "Why the World Exists" :

http://www.amazon.com/What-Would-Buddha-Do-Dilemmas/dp/1569752982/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945438&sr=1-1

This one is good too:

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Happiness-Handbook-Living/dp/1573221112/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945493&sr=1-1

And then there's this Sun Bear book:

http://www.amazon.com/Walk-Balance-Healthy-Harmonious-Living/dp/0671765647/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945299&sr=1-3

This one was kind of neat:

http://www.amazon.com/Way-Aikido-Lessons-American-Sensei/dp/B001QFZM0G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945606&sr=1-1

This was sort of like reading a very opinionated owners manual:

http://www.amazon.com/Seat-Soul-GARY-ZUKAV/dp/B0012WXB7Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945944&sr=1-1

..and let's not forget this one..

http://www.amazon.com/Purpose-Driven%C2%AE-Life-What-Earth/dp/0310276993/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237945987&sr=1-1

I thought "The Purpose Driven Life" was interesting because it takes concepts of Eastern Philosophy and spirituality and translates them into terminology that is more comfortable for Westerners to hear.

Hope I didn't bore you'all. Now back to the regularly scheduled program I suppose?

I don't mean to insult anyone's beliefs, I just like learning about different ways of thinking in the world. I find that comparing what other people believe to my own thoughts is a very meaningful and intuitive process. Sort of like holding up a kaleidescope to the light - it's interesting to see the similarities and differences in the patterns that emerge.

[FalconAngel]

I don't mean to insult anyone's beliefs, I just like learning about different ways of thinking in the world. I find that comparing what other people believe to my own thoughts is a very meaningful and intuitive process. Sort of like holding up a kaleidescope to the light - it's interesting to see the similarities and differences in the patterns that emerge.


All knowledge is learning and therefore good.

[ziggybabie]

Any belief that says all 'non believers' are going to suffer for an eternity of fire with a boogeyman, but does not offer proof that this is the correct belief and/or that all other 'god' beliefs worldwide are false......to me, the exclusivity alone would make such a God as the Christian one, 'evil', or incompetent, if you actually believed that.

Now, I know there are some Christians who say 'acts' is enough for 'heaven'. Others who even think hell was brought in to the story later and doesn't exist, even. But the fundamentalist 'Jesus or hell' belief......arrogant considering their own beliefs can be chalked up to birth/nationality privilege and questionless 'faith'.

I actually do believe the 'believe Jesus died for your sins or burn' crap is what the book says. But I don't believe in the book. I can at least be more tolerant of the 'all paths to God are correct' types, though I personally think they cannot coexist. If one is right, the others are wrong. Etc etc.....I don't see how a 'loving' god could do something so horrible as sending his 'children' to eternal suffering for something that was not their fault, due to his own incompetence not providing evidence. just one of my many objections

[BrotherJack]

Any belief that says all 'non believers' are going to suffer for an eternity of fire with a boogeyman, but does not offer proof that this is the correct belief and/or that all other 'god' beliefs worldwide are false......to me, the exclusivity alone would make such a God as the Christian one, 'evil', or incompetent, if you actually believed that.

Now, I know there are some Christians who say 'acts' is enough for 'heaven'. Others who even think hell was brought in to the story later and doesn't exist, even. But the fundamentalist 'Jesus or hell' belief......arrogant considering their own beliefs can be chalked up to birth/nationality privilege and questionless 'faith'.

I actually do believe the 'believe Jesus died for your sins or burn' crap is what the book says. But I don't believe in the book. I can at least be more tolerant of the 'all paths to God are correct' types, though I personally think they cannot coexist. If one is right, the others are wrong. Etc etc.....I don't see how a 'loving' god could do something so horrible as sending his 'children' to eternal suffering for something that was not their fault, due to his own incompetence not providing evidence. just one of my many objections

You are so right, Ziggy. It is very wrong for any religion to preach that the members of another belief will all perish in some eternal fire. It is arrogant for any relgion to consider itself ''the true way'' and again, damn the followers of other beliefs. In the same way, it is arrogant and insulting for atheists to tell people of any faith that they are mad, mentally ill, deranged or delusional. I have had that fired at me, on another forum site and boy, atheists can be as vicious as any Creationist Christian.

It is very difficult for anyone to describe in type, on sites such as this or any other forum, exactly what one believes or thinks about. I have found that with atheists (not all, some), whatever one says, the only thing they will come back with, apart from the insults, is ''PROOF!!!!''

I've asked Creationists and not just Christians, to try to step outside of their own beliefs, for just five minutes and try to understand that if there is a God, then we are all it's children and a loving God would not create it's children, just to see them burn in hell fire. They cannot!....With Creationist Christians....they just say..''But we have the Son of God'' and with Muslims, ''We are all slaves of Allah''......one gets nowhere.

Many wise words have been written, throughout the history of humankind, by people of faith and by non believers. It would do the human race far more good to take all these wise words and use them to inspire us all to create a better world, for every single human upon the planet.

We are all joined together by that ''vital spark'...that energy which is found within us all and throughout nature and the Cosmos. Striving to make this life a better place for us all, should be more important than different religions. And in these threads, not just Christianity, in it's many forms, should be mentioned and criticised......there is more than one religion.

If there is a God.....so be it.....If there is no God....so be it. It doesn't matter! Praying to a supernatural being which may or may not exist, will not stop war, hunger, hatred, death. If we make a mistake in this life, we need to put right the pain me may have caused to others, or to our own being.

Here and now, in corporeal form, is where we are and have to live and get on with existence. Honouring one another and honouring the planet should be our first priority!

[Luffly1]

The thing that I have never understood is how anyone could put down anyone else for having a faith in something when in reality know one has any possible way of knowing for sure until the end anyway. Hell, I am a firm believer in my religion and it feels right for me, but I will never sit here and say that I'm right because, when it comes down to it, I may not be! None of us might be! That is why it's called beliefs and faith.

[Realist]

Luffly1,


It kind of tickled me when you said, "Hell, I am a firm believer in my religion and it feels right for me,.........." !

Anyway, I have long felt the same way. I was raised in an extremely conservative, Southern Baptist home, where those who were not White Anglo Saxon Protestants...... (specifically Baptist) were on their way to Hell! That meant Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, etc, etc. No matter how good a person was, if they weren't that same as US, they were lost!

One time, when I was in my teens, I made the comment that I thought anyone, who was a good, honest, loving person, who tried to live a decent life, should be able to get into heaven. Well, I'll spare you the admonishment I got for THAT statement!

Still, I felt (and still feel) that, if there is going to be a heaven, then it's going to have a mixture of every color and religion under the sun...not just one group, or one certain branch of one certain Dogma!

[FalconAngel]

Fact of the matter is that all paths are valid.

Your path may not be valid for me and mine not valid for you, but our individual paths are right for each of us who follow those paths.

That belief is kind of a core philosophy to All Wiccan and most Neo-Wiccan paths.

[MetaSexual2]

Depends on your definition of valid Falcon. Some paths are deeply damaging to the follower of that path and/or those around them. The farther a belief system is from correspondence to reality (its truth value) the more likely it is to be damaging to the adherent or people affected by them.

[ziggybabie]

You are so right, Ziggy. It is very wrong for any religion to preach that the members of another belief will all perish in some eternal fire. It is arrogant for any relgion to consider itself ''the true way'' and again, damn the followers of other beliefs. In the same way, it is arrogant and insulting for atheists to tell people of any faith that they are mad, mentally ill, deranged or delusional. I have had that fired at me, on another forum site and boy, atheists can be as vicious as any Creationist Christian.

It is very difficult for anyone to describe in type, on sites such as this or any other forum, exactly what one believes or thinks about. I have found that with atheists (not all, some), whatever one says, the only thing they will come back with, apart from the insults, is ''PROOF!!!!''

I've asked Creationists and not just Christians, to try to step outside of their own beliefs, for just five minutes and try to understand that if there is a God, then we are all it's children and a loving God would not create it's children, just to see them burn in hell fire. They cannot!....With Creationist Christians....they just say..''But we have the Son of God'' and with Muslims, ''We are all slaves of Allah''......one gets nowhere.

Many wise words have been written, throughout the history of humankind, by people of faith and by non believers. It would do the human race far more good to take all these wise words and use them to inspire us all to create a better world, for every single human upon the planet.

We are all joined together by that ''vital spark'...that energy which is found within us all and throughout nature and the Cosmos. Striving to make this life a better place for us all, should be more important than different religions. And in these threads, not just Christianity, in it's many forms, should be mentioned and criticised......there is more than one religion.

If there is a God.....so be it.....If there is no God....so be it. It doesn't matter! Praying to a supernatural being which may or may not exist, will not stop war, hunger, hatred, death. If we make a mistake in this life, we need to put right the pain me may have caused to others, or to our own being.

Here and now, in corporeal form, is where we are and have to live and get on with existence. Honouring one another and honouring the planet should be our first priority!

See, I'm agnostic about the possibility of an unknown creator, only. From a creation standpoint (prior to the Big Bang), I do not think the theory of a higher consciousness is much further out than a cosmic accident when considering the equally absurd concepts of limitless time and space. But......no proof, no gods. So, personally, i live as an atheist.

I'm of the opinion that IF there is some higher power, it is not something any of our man made religions have conceived. We would know nothing of he/she/it. I think our modern religious deities are about as credible as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If a higher consciousness does exist, he/she/it/etc may be more 'evil' or indifferent than good natured even. Resembling the Lovecraftian Cthulu more than a 'god of light'. In that case, worshipping it would be pointless, and chances are we would still have no afterlife. Anyways, it is all speculative. I would lean towards deism and an absentee God, if one did exist.

I do not tell tolerant Christians they are mentally ill. I have been called intolerant for saying that of conservative fundamentalists. I don't care. It is a mental illness, in my eyes. One that prohibits them from objective logical thought process. You say it is arrogant for any religion to say it is the 'true way' but i believe the 'holy books' themselves more than the followers do this, meaning the theistic beliefs are to be at fault.

I know many atheists can be asses. This is just a human trait. People can suck in general, from any group.

And this next thing is just directed anyone reading this who might say 'all paths are valid'.......comfort and truth are not the same thing. Not to say I do not respect people's rights to believe in whatever, so long as it does not step on my toes, but many of these religions contradict each other. 'Truth' is not always objective. The sky cannot be both 'blue' and 'pink' and 'black' at the same time. Same as, if one of these 'faiths' and their dogma is to be taken literally, only one can be true. Making the other paths invalid.

[rissababynta]

I think our modern religious deities are about as credible as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. .

LMAO if I didn't enjoy being pagan so much, I would have so joined that church. I think there is a myspace page for that too lmao.

[ziggybabie]

LMAO if I didn't enjoy being pagan so much, I would have so joined that church. I think there is a myspace page for that too lmao.

lol. I wonder if they would baptize with Ragu? Instead of communion wafers, French bread?

yeah. i love the worshipping nature part of paganism. and I love old world pagan sculptures and nymph, goddess, nature imagery. pagan art. i respect that they celebrate human nature more and do not demonize things like lust, pride and gluttony so much. 'eat drink and be merry'.

plus, i think it's funny how Christianity used old world pagan deities to mold their first 'devil' imagery from. Funny because it only backfired on them and made paganism look 'rebellious'. lol.

i dont care for worshipping 'goddesses' or 'gods', though.

[darkeyes]

i dont care for worshipping 'goddesses' ........ , though.

O God hun.. dunno bout that... u seen jus how absofuckinlutinly GORGE Katie Melua is???? tee hee;):tong:

[rolandiscool]

IT'S RICHARD DAWKINS' BIRTHDAY!!!! Happy 62nd! :)

[FalconAngel]

Depends on your definition of valid Falcon. Some paths are deeply damaging to the follower of that path and/or those around them. The farther a belief system is from correspondence to reality (its truth value) the more likely it is to be damaging to the adherent or people affected by them.

True enough, but when we say that all paths are valid, we are talking specifically about real religions, not personality cults disguised as religion, like the Branch Davidians, or the group that followed Jim Jones.

Those were definitely personality cults, not religions.

[rolandiscool]

The different between a cult and a religion is based on a taxing code. :)

[FalconAngel]

lol. I wonder if they would baptize with Ragu? Instead of communion wafers, French bread?

yeah. i love the worshipping nature part of paganism. and I love old world pagan sculptures and nymph, goddess, nature imagery. pagan art. i respect that they celebrate human nature more and do not demonize things like lust, pride and gluttony so much. 'eat drink and be merry'.

plus, i think it's funny how Christianity used old world pagan deities to mold their first 'devil' imagery from. Funny because it only backfired on them and made paganism look 'rebellious'. lol.

i dont care for worshipping 'goddesses' or 'gods', though.

Don't know what Pagan experience you had, but that isn't what most of the Pagans/Wiccans that we know.

This is kind of an oversimplification, but here goes.

We don't "worship" our deities; certainly not in the monotheistic way.
We honor them by working within the bounds of nature and the magic inherent therein.

To our gods and goddesses, that is worship enough. The Gods of the Wicca are not jealous.

[ziggybabie]

Don't know what Pagan experience you had, but that isn't what most of the Pagans/Wiccans that we know.

This is kind of an oversimplification, but here goes.

We don't "worship" our deities; certainly not in the monotheistic way.
We honor them by working within the bounds of nature and the magic inherent therein.

To our gods and goddesses, that is worship enough. The Gods of the Wicca are not jealous.

well, honor....worship....point is you believe in acknowledging the existence of hypothetical unproven deities. 'worship' was not the correct word to use. all i was getting at is that i respectfully disagree in even acknowledging such things. I am not an expert on 'pagan' faiths. I was only posting what I like and dislike based on the little I have gathered, which may or may not be erred in some ways.

[ziggybabie]

O God hun.. dunno bout that... u seen jus how absofuckinlutinly GORGE Katie Melua is???? tee hee;):tong:

i have never even heard that name til now. lol.

[FalconAngel]

well, honor....worship....point is you believe in acknowledging the existence of hypothetical unproven deities. 'worship' was not the correct word to use. all i was getting at is that i respectfully disagree in even acknowledging such things. I am not an expert on 'pagan' faiths. I was only posting what I like and dislike based on the little I have gathered, which may or may not be erred in some ways.

Fair enough. Just clarifying, since one group has a definition of worship that another would not necessarily follow.

[spawnvampire]

Wow this one got a lot of people to respond to it. Well I have to add my piece to it as well. I consider myself a Christian. I do not believe that God cares if we are straight, bi or gay. I mean come on he has other things to worry about. Adam and Eve are the first two people in the world. So if they were the first ones then we are all related in some way somewhere down the line. But in the Bible it says incest is a sin. Well that contradicts life itself if we are all related through Adam and Eve. I believe that as humans we have interpreted the 10 commandments and the Bible to mean what it is we want it to mean not what God intended it to say. God would like us to do certain things and act a certain way. So would our parents but just like our parents he will love us no matter what we say or do. I also believe that the movie Prayers for Bobby (a lifetime movie my wife got me to watch) with Sigourney Weaver is an excellent move for people to watch if they are having trouble with their sexuality and religi:flag3:on.

[darkeyes]

Adam and Eve are the first two people in the world.
They wer?? Not 'cordin' 2 ne info me has that is owt but a fairy tale...:)

[FalconAngel]

Adam and Eve are the first two people in the world. So if they were the first ones then we are all related in some way somewhere down the line. But in the Bible it says incest is a sin. Well that contradicts life itself if we are all related through Adam and Eve.

Actually, I have an interesting thing from Genesis that says that Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden came after all else. There were the "other people" who were first; according to the old testament.

If you want, I can send it to you directly, because it is a rather long piece and I don't recall if it will fit in the forum in it's entirety. You may find it interesting.

[Hephaestion]

O God hun.. dunno bout that... u seen jus how absofuckinlutinly GORGE Katie Melua is???? tee hee;):tong:

So that's who the pictures are of on your profile (and there I was thinking it was you). I hope that she has pretty toes, no bunions, and feet that smell like fresh peaches if one is going to worship her as a goddess (deities that are not careful about their BO are a real pain).

.

[elian]

If you take Genesis literally then you have to acknowledge the genetic engineering -

errgh...<puts on spectacles and clears throat> ..

“But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.”

- <looks over the rim of the glasses> sounds like genetic engineering to me.

And lets not forget that "Pillar of Salt" in the desert - gee, seems like we might've had a lot of those in Nevada in the 50's for some strange reason.

I've never really had much trouble resolving the supposed "debate" about Creation vs. Evolution..

Isn't wild speculation fun..?

[spawnvampire]

They wer?? Not 'cordin' 2 ne info me has that is owt but a fairy tale...:)

lol you see one more reason to back up what i said because God can even forgive people like you and still love you. :bipride: