Big Bro an me an thee...

[darkeyes]

An this is wy??? As a frequent demonstrator 'gainst many things... is this not effin appallin'.. tho unsurprisin...

http://news.aol.co.uk/met-accused-of-protester-database/article/200903062229098732459

[ben_butterman]

An this is wy??? As a frequent demonstrator 'gainst many things... is this not effin appallin'.. tho unsurprisin...

http://news.aol.co.uk/met-accused-of-protester-database/article/200903062229098732459

i don't see any thing wrong with this ,, as you see more and more every day when public protesters are out in the street showing disdain over something there right to privacy is a null point ,

and time has proven that some of the protesters step across the line and take it to the next step with violence or destruction in the name of protesting ( whatever ) ,

and I'm sure the point will come up that you cant judge the group by the actions of a few ,, I say yes you can

[darkeyes]

i don't see any thing wrong with this ,, as you see more and more every day when public protesters are out in the street showing disdain over something there right to privacy is a null point ,

and time has proven that some of the protesters step across the line and take it to the next step with violence or destruction in the name of protesting ( whatever ) ,

and I'm sure the point will come up that you cant judge the group by the actions of a few ,, I say yes you can

Sum peeps murder an rape an kill an do otha shitty things.. so ya wud b quite happy 2 b on a polis database cos sum peeps break the law an do shitty things.. same principle applies..

.. dunno bout wer u r but me don like the idea a livin in a nazi state.. cos thats sorta thing they did... up 2 u ...

[rissababynta]

As much as I dislike most protestors and find protesting to be rather pointless in many cases, I think that it is unfair for that this is happening. If these people were all violent, or showed that they could turn violent or overly pushy, than perhaps keeping a small record isn't a bad idea as some form of proof in case something should happen...but for people who are exercising their right to protest peacefully and they are doing just that, it seems wrong to keep such a file.

[Hephaestion]

In the case highlighted, the claim is that the information will only ever be used in pursuit of criminals (before a fair trial?) and that any information on the innocent will be throw away after 7 years. That is 7 years of being a suspect and open to misinterpretation. Of course the information is thrown away isn't it - just like aborted children in hopsital laboratories?

Two major questions arise:

When were fundamental rights ever given to the populace without prior insurrection or the threat of it. One thinks of Magna Carta, the UK poll tax (aka the tax on growing up) or perhaps the declaration of independance of that insignificant rebellious colony that had some twinkling of a notion about calling itself the United States of America.

When a body is granted rights to act even within a democratic framework and that body declares superior knowledge and the right to push acceptability in a questionable direction whilst claiming to observe safeguards in secrecy then who 'polices the police'. Democratic accountability through the freedom of information? pages with the 'sensitive' information obliterated or cut out and a whitewash show trial after the damage has been done?

Thus follows the age old argument of 'when is fighting for a "just cause" seen as that or a facet of "terrorism"?' But it is just monitoring protestors after all. And so said a king (Henry II) once "who will rid me of that turbulent priest?" (actually not phrased a such - more like who amongst you would stand by and let your king be so humiliated in such fashion" Exit one Thomas Becket AD_1170 a major protestor against the king's actions.

Hmm!

.

[Falke]

I agree Rissa, for the most part protesters are rather annoying. However, most of them are just that, nothing more or less. In the US they are exercising their right to free speech and to peacefully assemble regardless of what their opinion is. I am unsure as to what the UK's laws are in accordance with that. However, this right is just as important to a free society as many of the other rights listed in the US Bill of Rights.

The fact that the Met Police now wants to monitor activists is setting a rather disturbing precedence. Mostly because they are monitoring specific people doing legal activities, then keeping this for some sort of "evidence" down the road. Seriously, what help can this surveillance do in a criminal case? "Oh, this person may have done this act, but here is some irrelevant side video of them legally advocating/denouncing X."

Bottom line is, there is no reason/excuse that a government *small or large* needs to track dissidents to the status quo, be it political or social unless said group has stepped outside legal bounds. If they step out of bounds, then nail them with the laws on the books. Until then, I see no legitimate reason to keep tabs on them.

[rolandiscool]

Although some times there are justifications for doing such things, doing it in a large scale is nothing more than abuse of power. Having information "just in case" anywhere is a SLIPPERY SLOPE. Taking a look at the location of the situation and the locations of responses you can definetly tell the difference between American Ideals and British. Americans were born out of being oppressed for the "greater good of England." This is why Americans would not swallow this kind of database easily (even when Hitler...I mean facism...I mean christian...i mean the devil...I mean George Dubayu) was in power. The English, however, tend to not be as offended of giving up such rights for either actual or ficitious security. What ever helps you sleep at night....right? However our greatest minds were British born and they realized how such power could be abused, thus our founding documents frame this idea. The Federalist papers really argue this case in more detail than our Constitution. Although you may save one person by doing this practice, the invasion into the lives of the million innocent is too high of a cost for such a safety net. The government is to fear it's people, not the people fear it's government. That is what keeps us all safe. If the information you collect is obviously important, such as ONE person doing something bad then it is within full scope of what a government is to do. When the information becomes massive with hundreds of people who may or may NOT ever do anything bad, you have gone down the dark alley of no return. We saw this before folks....Germany in the 1930's. So let me leave you with something to ponder:


When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

[darkeyes]

Although some times there are justifications for doing such things, doing it in a large scale is nothing more than abuse of power. Having information "just in case" anywhere is a SLIPPERY SLOPE. Taking a look at the location of the situation and the locations of responses you can definetly tell the difference between American Ideals and British. Americans were born out of being oppressed for the "greater good of England." This is why Americans would not swallow this kind of database easily (even when Hitler...I mean facism...I mean christian...i mean the devil...I mean George Dubayu) was in power. The English, however, tend to not be as offended of giving up such rights for either actual or ficitious security. What ever helps you sleep at night....right? However our greatest minds were British born and they realized how such power could be abused, thus our founding documents frame this idea. The Federalist papers really argue this case in more detail than our Constitution. Although you may save one person by doing this practice, the invasion into the lives of the million innocent is too high of a cost for such a safety net. The government is to fear it's people, not the people fear it's government. That is what keeps us all safe. If the information you collect is obviously important, such as ONE person doing something bad then it is within full scope of what a government is to do. When the information becomes massive with hundreds of people who may or may NOT ever do anything bad, you have gone down the dark alley of no return. We saw this before folks....Germany in the 1930's. So let me leave you with something to ponder:


When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

Wen me 1st heard bout this the poem came 2 mind.. tween ID cards wiv fingie prints for nationals.. ID cards for immigrants an foreign nationals who r resident wiv fingie prints an biometric data .. an a DNA database retainin DNA info on every 1 arrested wetha charged, found guilty, not proven or innocent howeva trivial the offence, CCTV on every corner an lotsa otha things makes it so much easier for it Niemollers poem 2 becum a reality in my country.. add this lil wheeze an they well on the way..:(

O yea an almos forgot.. think this dead sneaky..from 2012 ifya wanna get a new passport ya will havta go through the fingie printin an biometric crap ne way or ya don get 1...nice bak door way a gettin ther way huh? An price a passports goin through the roof 2 pay for the privilege..

..an peeps wonda wy me left the Labour Party..:rolleyes:

[FalconAngel]

The whole thing reminds me of one of the most infamous chapters of our government's history; the McCarthy era.

When the government made lists of people and prosecuted them; not for any actual criminal activity, but because they were members of the Communist party, or knew someone who was, or went to a Communist party meeting to be with a girl back in college......any excuse to persecute people under the guise of "protecting the country from the Communist menace".

It was a witch hunt, pure and simple. For us Americans, that was also when they added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, btw, in order to show that we were better than "those Godless Commies".

It was all a load of crap, of course, because it made us as bad, or worse than those "Godless Commies"; people lost their livelihoods and some even committed suicide because of it.

[rolandiscool]

Darkeyes, typically the documentary shows in the US tend to show that most people in London enjoy and don't complain about the CCTV's that are there (even though with new technologies they can follow ANY person in the entire city via computer with face recognition.) However, is this more a propaganda stunt by both governments? It appears you yourself have issues with what Scotland Yard is doing, I'm just wondering how many people over there have the same issues. It reminds me of what had happened in the US after 9/11. Have things changed with Brown in power? We have already seen a huge change in the US with that jagoff Bush out of power with the restoration of our legal rights for justice; however I fear that perhaps we have tainted Brittian too much via that shit head who was in power over here and you are going down a road of fascist power? Then again the illuision of "freedom" tends to be a good trick by governments who wish to stay in power as well (cold war russia, post 9/11 US.)

[Falke]

Then again the illuision of "freedom" tends to be a good trick by governments who wish to stay in power as well (cold war russia, post 9/11 US.)

That or putting a nationalistic theme on something that is contrary to that. Eg: Patriot Act...which both parties voted for, TWICE!

[rolandiscool]

That or putting a nationalistic theme on something that is contrary to that. Eg: Patriot Act...which both parties voted for, TWICE!

I worked in banking Zwitter...that Patriot Act is a bunch of bull that costs you more in the long run AND has not caught ONE terrorist. In reality it actually keeps the poor from opening accounts and becoming financially independent...so the truth is out....the whole 9/11 bull was to keep the rich rich and the poor under their foot!!! We saw this in France once before...I think it's time to put Madoff and his friends heads in that basket for public view!

[rolandiscool]

By the way, that just made me think of a good point:

The difference between Germany Post WW1 and WW2 and the US post 9/11 is that the controlling power wasn't exposed to be trying to take over the lives of it's private (and other country's private) citizens. Bush and his crooked friends need to be taken to good ole Huston to be tried like we did to outlaws in the old west!

And although I'm a liberal, and see the change Obama is or wants to do, I don't wear blinders. All politicians are crooks...how else do you think they get voted in.

[rissababynta]

The whole thing reminds me of one of the most infamous chapters of our government's history; the McCarthy era.

When the government made lists of people and prosecuted them; not for any actual criminal activity, but because they were members of the Communist party, or knew someone who was, or went to a Communist party meeting to be with a girl back in college......any excuse to persecute people under the guise of "protecting the country from the Communist menace".

It was a witch hunt, pure and simple. For us Americans, that was also when they added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, btw, in order to show that we were better than "those Godless Commies".

It was all a load of crap, of course, because it made us as bad, or worse than those "Godless Commies"; people lost their livelihoods and some even committed suicide because of it.

I do believe that this was where the concept of The Crucible came from. You definitely weren't the only one to consider it a witch hunt haha.

[FalconAngel]

I do believe that this was where the concept of The Crucible came from. You definitely weren't the only one to consider it a witch hunt haha.

That's why Bush and his ilk need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

The Constitution was written as a plan to prevent government from usurping power and rights away from the people under any guise. The law was broken and for six years, the lawbreakers not only evaded the law, but have continued to usurp it.

As Darkeyes pointed out, in the UK big brother is there, but he is also here and he needs to be taken down, permanently. And the start is to prosecute those oathbreakers that have illegally stolen the rights of the people, before the people are driven to revolution.
We don't need the scapegoats either. We need the actual lawbreakers to let them all know that the people will no longer tolerate it.

[canuckotter]

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. True two hundred odd years ago, true today. If anything, the last eight years have demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt why eternal vigilance is required... Bush & Co really should be prosecuted for war crimes. And, for that matter, anyone stationed at Gitmo who participated in waterboarding should also be prosecuted for war crimes. "Just doing what you were told" is no excuse. It won't happen in the States, but maybe there's another country out there willing to stand up for what the US used to stand for?

[FalconAngel]

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. True two hundred odd years ago, true today. If anything, the last eight years have demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt why eternal vigilance is required... Bush & Co really should be prosecuted for war crimes. And, for that matter, anyone stationed at Gitmo who participated in waterboarding should also be prosecuted for war crimes. "Just doing what you were told" is no excuse. It won't happen in the States, but maybe there's another country out there willing to stand up for what the US used to stand for?

A truer word was never said.

The "I was only following orders" excuse didn't wash for the Nazis on trial in Nuremburg, so why should it wash now?

Bush and everyone else who broke the law should also be tried for treason for violating their oaths of office. Oathbreakers have no business in positions of power. And like the judge tells all criminals "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

[Jade Pecker]

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. True two hundred odd years ago, true today. If anything, the last eight years have demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt why eternal vigilance is required... Bush & Co really should be prosecuted for war crimes. And, for that matter, anyone stationed at Gitmo who participated in waterboarding should also be prosecuted for war crimes. "Just doing what you were told" is no excuse. It won't happen in the States, but maybe there's another country out there willing to stand up for what the US used to stand for?

The "following Orders" gambit didn't work at Nueremberg, but it will probably work here. Although Obama is certainly more to the center than Bush, he is nonetheless a politician, and we have the best system of government that money can buy.

[darkeyes]

Will cum bak on this time permittin..freedom is a very fragile thing.. everythin goin on 'ere is dun cosa govt fear mongerin.. bit like happens elsewer..the US included.. ther is more opposition 2 wots goin on than yas think..an in time that can only increase as peeps find every facet a ther lives bein monitored an increasinly controlled.. further North ya go in the UK the more opposition exists.. but even in the South an even in the chatterin classes ther is concern.. House a Lords for example, for whom me normally has no time woteva, forced waterin down a the ID scheme tho sadly hasn killed it.. Brits not as dopey asya think..an do get riled wen govt goes 2 far....history full a examples of it.. recent 1's an all...

Contrary 2 wots commonly believed we do hav a constitution.. unwritten an established in statute, common law an precedent.. an we hav rites jus like u do ova the pond.. an peeps in the end do get rite uptite wen they r taken away..

[Hephaestion]

rolandiscool; - Darkeyes, typically the documentary shows in the US tend to show that most people in London enjoy and don't complain about the CCTV's that are there .....

We may not complain overtly but we do NOT enjoy ubiquitous CCTV. The original idea was of a deterrent. However, this does not work. Also it often fails to apprehend any wrong real doers such as murderers or muggers as it is either 'not working' or 'pointing the wrong direction'. When working, the younger criminal sometimes plays to the cameras. The only real success has been to record vehicle movements for revenue earning and then it is high resolution and instant inhuman fines.

But true to form the population is now learning to fight back with hoods and balaclavas (makes criminals sound noble); ringer number plates (same type of vehicle using stolen numbers); shredded paper with names and addresses so as to fly dump the rest with impunity because we are charged AGAIN for rubbish to be collected (that's a joke - it has to be taken to a dump but you must not use a car because it produces CO2) when we have already been charged, but at the same time, population density is being stoked (we are now the most densly populated country in the EU) for supposed financial reasons (you call it Ponsy we call it pyramid selling); etc


...(even though with new technologies they can follow ANY person in the entire city via computer with face recognition.) However, is this more a propaganda stunt by both governments? ....

ID cards are being introduced by stealth and they are using face recognition


....It appears you yourself have issues with what Scotland Yard is doing, I'm just wondering how many people over there have the same issues. It reminds me of what had happened in the US after 9/11. Have things changed with Brown in power?.....

No they haven't changed. Brown was always part of Blair's administration. It is business as usual. Blair only left because the writing was on the wall that his chum Bush was going to be out of office and that the economic bubble was about to burst. Recently the government (Brown) refused under FOI to reveal the decision making process behind the Iraq II war on the basis of national security. New Labour are succeeding in making the Conservatives look left wing. That is until the Conservatives manage another own goal.


....We have already seen a huge change in the US with that jagoff Bush out of power with the restoration of our legal rights for justice; however I fear that perhaps we have tainted Brittian too much via that shit head who was in power over here and you are going down a road of fascist power?....

No changes here as things tend to be long lasting (reminder that the offcial secrets act was brought in for the duration of WW1 - that is 'one' not 'two') Afraid you are right. There has been evidence of rigging things 'a la Bush' - sheer coincidence!. Accepted that what the US does the UK (certainly England) does within a year. Get the feeling that the UK is being used as a guinea pig at times for the US. However, please do not see us as incapable of our own deceptions and dirty dealings. The horned devil Mandelson is evidence of unholy alliance (and a real embarrassment to the LBGT community)


....Then again the illusion of "freedom" tends to be a good trick by governments who wish to stay in power as well (cold war russia, post 9/11 US.).....

Yes, we are getting that with promoting ID cards. Just think, with an ID card the police could have stopped and asked an innocent Brazilian electrician to identify himself before blowing his brains out (and then exonerating the imbeciles involved with attempted false evidence leading to a complete whitewash of a trial and that only conducted after much insistence by the man's relatives).

"Come out we only want to talk to you"
"But you are shooting at us"
"Sorry"
"There you go again"
"Sorry again - we are really quite sensitive and my colleague here is writing a novel""
"Yeah and I'm doing it in crayon"
"Oops! sorry again"

.

[darkeyes]

This is interestin.. shows England is crap...the US.. for all its much lauded constitution marginally less crap.. an me own country a bit betta but not much 2 rite home bout... privacy jus don exist...info a lil outa date..but wud think things r worse if ne thin..:(

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

[darkeyes]

.. an this for a lil gem...:(

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-powers-for-police-to-hack-your-pc-1225802.html

[MetaSexual2]

Fran, this is stuff I'm intensely interested in as well, more so since moving to the UK. The current climate here bothers me for two reasons. The first you have already pointed out - that the gov is collecting a very large amount of info on the populace (and being so sneaky about it). The second part of the problem is the that the gov is hoarding information (unless you count all the laptops they've lost recently :tong:) about its own operations. The combination is a recipe for disaster. People need to start complaining about the lack of transparency - we should know what every branch of gov is up to and how they are spending every penny of taxpayers money. I'm considering whether to become a citizen (subject :eek:) this year, and some of this stuff gives me pause.

I know from previous conversation that you didn't think much of the LibDems, but they seem to be the only one of the three major parties paying attention to this right now. http://www.libdems.org.uk/home/liberal-democrats-launch-radical-plans-to-defend-civil-liberties-173428053;show

[MetaSexual2]

Also, following on from the above discussion about Bush & Co use of torture. Good article on the lawyer who wrote most of their legal opinions:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/03/10/john_yoo/

The incredible arrogance, he is completely unrepentant about the long term damage to the US he caused.

[darkeyes]

Fran, this is stuff I'm intensely interested in as well, more so since moving to the UK. The current climate here bothers me for two reasons. The first you have already pointed out - that the gov is collecting a very large amount of info on the populace (and being so sneaky about it). The second part of the problem is the that the gov is hoarding information (unless you count all the laptops they've lost recently :tong:) about its own operations. The combination is a recipe for disaster. People need to start complaining about the lack of transparency - we should know what every branch of gov is up to and how they are spending every penny of taxpayers money. I'm considering whether to become a citizen (subject :eek:) this year, and some of this stuff gives me pause.

I know from previous conversation that you didn't think much of the LibDems, but they seem to be the only one of the three major parties paying attention to this right now. http://www.libdems.org.uk/home/liberal-democrats-launch-radical-plans-to-defend-civil-liberties-173428053;show

Is all v scary huh? Ther r peeps kikkin up a fuss an shoutin bout it ok..not nearly enuff tho cos the present climate a fear plays rite inta Govts hands..we can an will stop summa the stuff goin on.. but not all until peeps realise that our freedoms r things we give up at cost of our soul.. givin up freedoms an liberties 2 combat terrorism suits govt cos it has the excuse 2 do much as it likes.. but by doin so an surrenderin those liberties we allow govt also 2 do zactly wot terror groups want them 2 do as parta ther campaigns.. so who's winnin??

U becum a Brit subject ifya like.. tee hee.. me a subject 2 no 1.. am a British citizen..thats wot it says on me passport... but can uundastand ya havin 2cd thots... mite mesel if me wosn already 1...

Up 'ere a course we hav the Nats in Govt.. like the Lib/Dems they also v critical a the loss a liberty we sufferin.. less so now they in power a course.. an thats jus how the Lib/Dems wud b if an wen they becum govt.. me looks at the whole agenda a ne party fore makin me mind up.. historically Labour but c wer we r now wiv them? Cud nev vote Tory cos howeva bad an repressive Labour is in power.. the Tories will b summat much much worse... woteva they say now..ther whole history is doin down an tryin 2 crush the will a the people... they r truly a party a vested an monied interest..

.. but am an optimist Meta babes.. the way me is made.. an the day wen the people a this country think they had enuff a alla the poop bein heaped on em by govt..they will get togetha put a stop 2 it.. that is also historically how we hav been.. an we will b gain... ther r jus lil signs that they r stirrin.. further away from the South East..the more they r unhappy an ya can c it... so fingies x'd... cya on the barricades.. tee hee..:tong:

[darkeyes]

.. an this for a lil gem...:(

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-powers-for-police-to-hack-your-pc-1225802.html

Sumhow expected more response 2 the forces a law an order bein allowed 2 access our PCs remotely wivout a warrant an wivout our knowledge.. peeps mus like ther pvt biz bein open an available 2 the forces a the state..:(