A Mothers Dilemma?

[darkeyes]

Read these....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7754247.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7815231.stm

Is it do you think a mothers dilemma? Or do you think this woman deserves the approbation and scorn poured on her from all quarters by a very mean minded and hypocritical establishment for doing what she believed was right for her daughter?? Or do you think she should have done all she could to stop the relationship from becoming sexual?? Or even stop the relationship altogether? Should the 22 yo boy friend have been put on the sexual offenders register and when sentenced should he be jailed? Just how culpable is the mother for allowing things to go as far as they have?

These and other difficult questions are being asked and having two young girls in our home we are asking ourselves just what would we do if faced with a 14 yo daughter who wished to start a sexual relationship with an older bf.. any bf friend really but for the purposes of this thread I intend to address the concept of an adult older bf..

Remembering my own history, when I was the girl in question's age I was sexually active with several older men and women as well as (mainly) girls and boys around my own age or a little older.. No I didn't let on to my mum and dad, for while they are very liberated people with very open minds they would not have approved of my sleeping around with anyone, my own age or older... not as long as I was under age in the eyes of the law. So I did it furtively and dishonestly without their knowledge.. although my mum I know had suspicions... there isn't any way in the world they would have agreed to me having sex with boyfriends or girl friends.. they now know about my teenage years and that I was not the little innocent angel certainly dad thought me.. but I do know if they had known, steps would have been taken to put an end to my fun and games..

In the case of this woman in the Scottish Borders Kate and I have been trying to put ourselves in her shoes, and I know that she is more likely to act more like my parents than I would, even although she was herself sexually active at age 15 with an adult. Since living with Kate, and especially now we have responsibility for her two daughters, one who will soon be 10, and the younger who is almost 18 months..for the first time I find myself questioning my own 14 and 15 yo attitudes and now faced with the reality of being something I never ever intended to be..a parent.. we have encouraged the older girl never to be afraid of talking to us about anything, including sex and sexuality, and as the younger begins to understand the world, its
complexities, and its moralities, she will be given the same rights. I know Kate's attitude and respect it.. just as I respected my parents attitudes even if I didnt agree with or live up to them, but can honestly say I do not know how I would react should either of those girls face us with the same dilemma as the woman in these links.

Do we act like my parents would have, and do everything to stop it.. from persuasion to something much more assertive? Or act more like this mother did?? Hopefully the question will never arise, but we are giving it much thought...I just dont think there is an easy anwer to it that truly fits.. and imposing my or Kate's morality on either child is something we don't want and so is not an option... but we have and are trying to educate them with a proper sense of responsibility and knowledge towards sexual matters... we will not tell them what they must and must not do.. but we are giving and will give them an insight and a knowledge of what sex is and what it is not, and what it legally and personally may mean to them ...both the down and upsides and the dangers.

So what should this mother have done? It is a quandry and something not easy to decide upon.. for me anyway. Whatever she decided had dangers for her and her child.. I have mixed emotions about the case because of my history and my personal morality. I know I find myself unable to condemn the mother and certainly not the daughter.. the man? Does he deserve condemnation? Again, because of my own past, I find myself in difficulty here also... I do think he was stupid and selfish and he has been caught breaking the law.. now he faces the penalties which law will proscribe... he is now a convicted sex offender and that will follow him for the rest of his life.. however long he is on the register for... then I think of two little girls under my roof and wonder and suffer a confusion of emotions about just what my attitude to him should in fact be.. and I find that I do judge him quite harshly and condemn his actions.. which seems to me to be a rank hypocrisy considering that once..not so many years ago..another 14 yo girl did much the same thing with men of his age, only without her parents knowledge or approval.

[eddy10]

We have two questions here.

One question is the legal aspect. IMO the boy is guilty for having sex with a minor, and knowing she was a minor. The mother and father are guilty by complicity.

The second question is a moral one. We all have our own opinion in that respect. So, I will not go there, except to say that this is an example of why we have to have laws.

My :2cents:

[dougbi]

I think too often sex is viewed as a requirement or a right. In many respects it is a privilege. That may seem victorian, especially to someone with a "history" but at the end of the day, no one says you have to have sex or that having sex is necessarily a good idea. The role of parent is not to always empathize, but to step in when something isn't a good idea. Children should benefit not only from a parent's experience (their "history") but from their wisdom.

[Hephaestion]

The assumption here is that normal healthy people are the focus.

Absolutley correct there are laws designed to protect and the greater the age gap the more the relevance. So, is it right for aging pop stars to marry girls of 13 and 'get away with it'?

However, in the case at hand, if one knows deep within one's self that the two e.g. will somehow circumvent all attempts to prevent their union e.g. are convinced that they are in love and it is natural etc then the scandinavian approach of providing them with a safe haven and loving careful advice is probably the better avenue.

Should the matter have gone to open court (rather than be "in camara") and then been sensationalized? Probably not as it has likely marked and may well blight the lives of two now young people more in need of guidance than punishment.

We taught our children that one of the results of sex was offspring. Easiest thing in the world is to have sex and end up with chiildren. Hardest thing in the world is to then assume the responsibility, bring them up and care for them until one's dying day. At least that is what my Christian family orientated western cultural background has taught. Compare that to some societies where children are punished beyond reason, enslaved, sold, discarded, mutilated, killed.

There is a list in my mind and the aging popstar is not excuded.

Goosfraba
.

[Doggie_Wood]

We have two questions here.

One question is the legal aspect. IMO the boy is guilty for having sex with a minor, and knowing she was a minor. The mother and father are guilty by complicity.

The second question is a moral one. We all have our own opinion in that respect. So, I will not go there, except to say that this is an example of why we have to have laws.

My :2cents:


Well said Eddy - The laws of any land should be respected and followed.
If the general populace rebukes the law, so be it - but laws in-tact should be adhered to.

As for my personal view - if a 22 yo seduced my 13 yo grand-daughter (and see is an attractive young lass, I would have to hide his body (if you catch the meaning).

But I do trust her for she does have a sensible head on here shoulders. She don't get that from her mum,:eek: that's for sure. She gets that from her da, me son. :bigrin:

:doggie:

[jamieknyc]

One thing you find out when you become a parent is that even if you yourself hold militantly liberal views, you do have to impose rules on your children- for their own protection.

[darkeyes]

One thing you find out when you become a parent is that even if you yourself hold militantly liberal views, you do have to impose rules on your children- for their own protection.Jamie me luffly.. me knos usually u an me don agree on 2 much bout the world..an imposin rules is not summat wich cums naturally 2 me.. but havta own up 2 thinkin ther mite jus b summat in wotya say.. an that seems 2 me 2 b anotha rank hypocrisy... but our main concern wile protectin our kids..is that they both hav a wonderfully happy an safe childhood an don grow up wiv the hang ups an hypocrisies wich mosta the world seems 2..

[CuddlyKate]

I do agree with Frances that this woman faced a great dilemma. However I believe she was found wanting in acting as she did and has failed her daughter. It was an awful position to find herself in and whilst I may disapprove of her decision and her actions, I, like Frances cannot bring myself to condemn her for taking a wrong turn.

Should we ever have to face this dilemma I could never sanction any relationship becoming physical until our children are of legal age and I am satisfied that they are mature and responsible enough to properly deal with the pressures which such a relationship would inevitably create. I do not say this because I have any old fashioned opinions about sex, nor would I wish to prevent my children enjoying happy healthy sex lives with the person or persons of their choice when the time is right, it is not illegal and they are mature and responsible enough to deal with the consequences.

Frances and I are different people with different attitudes about many things. Although like her I did have a sexual relationship with an older person as a minor, it ended most unhappily and the heartbreak and pain led me to almost wreck my life, deprived me of dignity and honesty, wrecked my health and has left me with an addiction which will always be a reminder of doing things which I simply did not have the maturity or common sense to deal with properly.

Frances could and did get through relatively unscathed because of her much more free and liberal upbringing, her selfishness and her tougher hide. I do not believe she was any more mature than I, but her personality and the faults it contained, and to a great extent still contains, allowed her to come through pretty well. Yet even she has scars left from those days, when she acted in a thoroughly dishonest manner and lied to her parents repeatedly for a very long time with seeming indifference, and hurt and let down others who loved and believed in her. She came though ok. Unfortunately others did not.

In my case, I am much more deeply scarred by the whole experience, and feel great shame about that period of my life and the pain my parents suffered not to mention the damage I did to myself. I do not wish my experience to be my children's, nor do I wish Frances' story to be that of my children either, for as she will freely admit, her way created so much pain and destruction for other people in its wake.

To some extent I believe our lives as young teens are examples of what this woman was trying to avoid for her child. Her decision was unwise and it is having ramifications which she did not envisage. Her daughter will be scarred and in her efforts to do best by her daughter she has only made that scarring so much worse than it need have been if only she had made a more sensible decision.

Frances is correct when she says there is no satisfactory answer in this case. As parents we have to muddle through as best we can and make the best judgements for our children. By talking to and giving our children the best life education we can, and listening to them whatever their cares and concerns, not dictating we hope to avoid this dilemma. Yet our own experiences show that while we love and trust our children, they are their own person, and no matter how much we love, listen to and care for them, it is they who will make the decisions on their lives and when, if ever, they decide to become sexually active. It is with that knowledge that whatever we decide for our children, no stone will be left unturned finding a solution with which we, they and the older boy or girl friend can live with stopping short of any acceptance of a physical relationship as long as the girls are not of age. It must involve honesty and trust by all concerned.

The law is an imperfect instrument and full of flaws but it does exist to protect our children, and even although we did not do so ourselves, having gone through what I did because of my failure to live my life by it, and knowing of the debris left by Frances failure to do so, I expect it to be observed by all concerned.

[CuddlyKate]

Jamie me luffly.. me knos usually u an me don agree on 2 much bout the world..an imposin rules is not summat wich cums naturally 2 me.. but havta own up 2 thinkin ther mite jus b summat in wotya say.. an that seems 2 me 2 b anotha rank hypocrisy... but our main concern wile protectin our kids..is that they both hav a wonderfully happy an safe childhood an don grow up wiv the hang ups an hypocrisies wich mosta the world seems 2..Do I detect a growing up and some reality entering your pretty little head Frances darling?:)

[Realist]

I may never know the real affects on me, brought on by my first sexual introduction by a much older man. At 14, I was very immature and self indulgent. Once I learned of the pleasures one could derive from another human being, there was no turning back. It was years before I learned the responsibility of having such a powerful drug at my disposal. Looking back, I know I would have been much better off with a little training in personal responsibility, being considerate, loving, and understanding the importance of pleasing others. My next relationship, with a married woman at 15, was even worse. It was too much, too quick. I admit that I have often looked back at the time fondly, but in reality, waiting for maturity to catch up with me would have been prudent!

And, if either of my parents had known, I'm afraid there would have been serious ramifications for the older ones.

[darkeyes]

Do I detect a growing up and some reality entering your pretty little head Frances darling?:)Not as much as me has the feelin that me has jus a had a gentle but gud bollokkin...:eek::(

[CuddlyKate]

Not as much as me has the feelin that me has jus a had a gentle but gud bollokkin...:eek::(No sweetheart, not a bollocking, merely a gentle reminder and acceptance of what once was.:)

[darkeyes]

No sweetheart, not a bollocking, merely a gentle reminder and acceptance of what once was.:)

...still feel me been chastised... cudntcha wait till ya got 'ome!!!:bigrin:

[csrakate]

I know I have said this over and over but I feel a need to say it once again. Children need to come into their sexuality on their own, in their own time and NOT with the "guidance" of a 22 year old man who obviously knew what he was doing and definitely NOT with the blessings of her mother. I am sorry but for this mother to have allowed this to take place under her own roof was abusive to say the least and was a far cry from the maternal guidance that this young girl needed. For her to not only condone this activity but to provide a place for it to take place reeks of abuse and was an ill conceived way to deal with what she perceived to be a way of "keeping track" of her daughter's actions. As mothers and fathers, it is our role to not only protect our children but to teach them the basic life guidelines that will enable them to act rashly and maturely as adults. What this mother did was a far cry from that and she should be held accountable for her actions.

Fran, I am glad that your sexual explorations as a young girl had a "happy ending", but for many who venture out in such a way, they often learn to treat sex is a means to an end, that it's a way to feel love and accepted without loving and accepting themselves as human beings. You and Kate would be far better served to instill self reliance and self esteem in your girls than to allow them to use their bodies to find that acceptance. I can assure you that in doing so, you will find that they will mature into loving, self sufficient women, women that will one day leave your home without causing you concern for their well being.

Just my :2cents: and given with all the love and hope for your girls!

Hugs,
Kate

[darkeyes]

You and Kate would be far better served to instill self reliance and self esteem in your girls than to allow them to use their bodies to find that acceptance. I can assure you that in doing so, you will find that they will mature into loving, self sufficient women, women that will one day leave your home without causing you concern for their well being.



Hugs,
Kate Scuse me mumsie...did we not say jus that in our own ways?:eek: Ther is no question a robbin 'em of self esteem an encouragin 'em 2 use ther bodies for acceptance...quite the opposite.. if an wen they do go out inta the world an begin 2 hav sex lives an luff lives..we wont em 2 b jus wot u say they shud b.. but we accept the reality a this world an if an wen they do begin to hav sex lives they do not not strive for acceptance.. but do so for the rite reasons.. ther is no question a encouragin or discouragin 'em.. ther is the question a makin sure they hav as much information, knowledge an undastandin not just a sex, but life as a whole, an 2 ensure they will b jus who an wot u say they shud b.. so please mumsie..don bite our heads off for summat ya seem ta think we hav sed.. we wont them 2 grow inta strong, independent, compassionate an luffin women wiv minds a ther own an as far as we can...we intend 2 avoid turnin em inta carbon copies a us at ne level...

[csrakate]

Scuse me mumsie...did we not say jus that in our own ways?:eek: Ther is no question a robbin 'em of self esteem an encouragin 'em 2 use ther bodies for acceptance...quite the opposite.. if an wen they do go out inta the world an begin 2 hav sex lives an luff lives..we wont em 2 b jus wot u say they shud b.. but we accept the reality a this world an if an wen they do begin to hav sex lives they do not not strive for acceptance.. but do so for the rite reasons.. ther is no question a encouragin or discouragin 'em.. ther is the question a makin sure they hav as much information, knowledge an undastandin not just a sex, but life as a whole, an 2 ensure they will b jus who an wot u say they shud b.. so please mumsie..don bite our heads off for summat ya seem ta think we hav sed.. we wont them 2 grow inta strong, independent, compassionate an luffin women wiv minds a ther own an as far as we can...we intend 2 avoid turnin em inta carbon copies a us at ne level...
Oh sweetie...I think the way I worded my response came out wrong....I never meant to insinuate that you and Kate didn't already know this. When I said this:


You and Kate would be far better served to instill self reliance and self esteem in your girls than to allow them to use their bodies to find that acceptance. I can assure you that in doing so, you will find that they will mature into loving, self sufficient women, women that will one day leave your home without causing you concern for their well being.


It was simply as a basic answer to this question that you posed:


Do we act like my parents would have, and do everything to stop it.. from persuasion to something much more assertive? Or act more like this mother did??

It wasn't meant as advice to the two of you, but simply as an answer to a general question, knowing full well that the rest of your post spoke volumes as to doing just that....I should have made myself a bit more clear...I could NEVER imagine a child raised under yours and Kate's roof would have anything less than a great deal of self esteem and self confidence....and I know very well that you would never allow anything less. I am sorry that it came out this way, and was never intended to be a direct statement to the two of you as much as a simple answer to a question. Surely you know your Mumsie better than to think I would ever sit in judgment of your parenting skills...or your desire to raise healthy, well adjusted young women!!!

I hope this clears up the misunderstanding, sweetie....I would hate to think you thought otherwise!!


Huggles and bounces!
Kate aka Mumsie

[darkeyes]

....jus 1 thing 2 say 2 ya mumsie..Muah..mayb me jus bein lil sensitive.... read me contrib 2 Alegrias thread "Am I being selfish" for an explanation.. touchy began las nite...:(

[csrakate]

....jus 1 thing 2 say 2 ya mumsie..Muah..mayb me jus bein lil sensitive.... read me contrib 2 Alegrias thread "Am I being selfish" for an explanation.. touchy began las nite...:(

Take three ibuprofen, drink plenty of fluids and eat mass quantities of chocolate!! lol!! Huggles to you!!

[pasht]

Personally, I think the mother... made a reasonable decision.

I remember that I already explored a lot at that age and if my parents would have tried to stop me from doing it at home, I would have done it anyway at places that were a lot unsafer.

This boyfriend was not able to rape the daughter or do anything without her consent, because the parents would have heard it right away. They knew what was happening when and could make sure she had safe sex, talk about STD's and unwanted pregnancy. They could talk about sex and intimacy in an openly and adult way - something I could only wish for at that age: I lied A LOT to my parents....

And, if you compare 14 yo girls, you can see that there are many differences: some are very mature at that age and some not at all. I HATED it when my mother tried to deny my sexuality. She said she was ready at 18 for penetrative sex, and expected me to wait just as long, while I felt ready for it at age 15.

If my mother would have accepted my sexuality I would have felt more respected as a person. I am impressed that there are still mothers who have the courage to look at their children's own unique evolution and personality and don't let laws or the pressure of the mainstream be the only base for parenting.

[Hephaestion]

from csrakate to darkeyes ".....and eat mass quantities of chocolate!! "

Heph advises "Beware the ice-cream!"
.