Moral Delimma :(

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I had a girlfriend call me late last night in near hysterics because she was so angry. She and her 7yro daughter live in a shared housing arrangement where there are 8 people now living in this big house. They have a new roomie that's only been there a short time. Fairly nice guy. He let everyone know that he has Seizures, and if something ever arose to please call 911 for him. Well, my friend is a nurse at one of the larger hospitals there in Seattle, and assured him that if anything happened that she would attend to him if it came down to it, until an ambulance arrived. All seemed right with the world after that.

He would sit and read to her daughter, or help with household chores and all was right with the world. He was sick frequently and stayed in his room alot. Everyone respected his privacy, and Diana had even broght him food sometimes when he was too weak to get up and make him some food.

Last night, he had his first major seizure and I guess it was a bad one. He fell out of the bathtub and smacked his head on the back of the toilet, making him pass out in the bathroom.
She, Diane, heard him fall and peeped in to see him lying in a pool of blood. (Head injuries are always bleed massively)

She went in and quickly checked his vitals, and had the other roomie call 911 as she covered him and turned his head over to keep him from drowning in his own blood.
When the ambulance got there, they asked if he was on any kinds of meds and she told him all she knew of was meds for his seizure disorder. The Paramedic went into his room and came back out grave-faced holding a bottle. This bottle contained medication for those on AIDS. On his necklesss Emergency Alert it said, "Patiant in 2nd stage of Aids, contact Doctor so and so"
The Paramedic refused to work on him any further at this point, outside of to get him stabalized and to get him preped to go on the ambulance, but he'd do no more.
Needless to say my friend was horrified. She had his blood all over her from her trying to help him. They got him into the ambulance and she took the garden hose to the floor, (Drain in the bottom of the floor) and scrubbed and scalded the bathroom down. She saw her own Doctor the next morning as well.

She finally got ahold of the land lords, (that hadnt bothered to Tell them that they rented to a man with AIDS.) She told them the situation and asked why the rest of the house hold had not been informed. Their excuse was, "We didnt tell you because we were afraid you wouldnt let him come live there, or some of you would move out. We wanted to keep all of you there, so we didnt tell you. It was a matter of needing the money you guys provide us.....We figured that you didnt need to know"
She is positively Livid at the land lords for their nonchalant manner over the situation.
Right now she is torn between going to the Renters Union, contacting an Attorney, and and finding a place to move to.

My question is this: Were the land lords legally responsible for informing tenants that a person with AIDS was going to be moving in, and living in their house? I know they Should have been Morally, but I am wondering about legally. The rest of the tenants are in a quandry now, because they dont know if they can trust the land lords now, and three are seriously thinking of moving.

What is your opinon on this situation? WOULD you want to be informed if you were in this type of situation? Were the landlords negligent in not informing the rest of thec tenants, just because they wanted to keep a flow of good money coming in?
Let me hear from you.
Cat

[balancingact]

It's not the landlord's responsibility to alert roommates to the man's health status. That's a privacy issue. The moral issue falls on the man himself. He knew he was prone to seizures, whether they were caused by the virus or not.

Had she been informed, she could have made a better decision on how to treat him, i.e., wear gloves and be aware. Now, she'll have to go through a series of HIV tests.

Really, the onus was on the man with seizures. The landlord's answer was wrong, and they should have encouraged the man to tell the rest of the roommates, as they are probably forbidden to do so (of course this may vary by state law, etc.) It puts the landlords in an awkward situation. Legally, I have no idea where this could go.

[Mmonty]

You would have to ask a lawyer about the legalities of it, but , because it was known he had seizures, there should have been disclosure about his having AIDS for the very reason that something like what DID happen might. Especially since she was already willing to deal with someone with a medical condition.

[trubipoly]

The ladlord actually Can Not tell you if the guy has aids or not. even when you sell a house and have to disclose if someone has dies on the premises, you can not disclose someone dies from aids. The room mate should have told you himself if anything but again really is not required to either. I think he figured you would just call 911 if something happened like he asked (not knowing he would be injured in the process) its really a hard call and each person has to deal with it themselves. As a nurse though she should already know better about blood issues, she needs to be retrained about blood born illness i would say. with that said I hope all are well after this .

[Lonewolf76]

It's not the landlord's responsibility to alert roommates to the man's health status. That's a privacy issue. The moral issue falls on the man himself. He knew he was prone to seizures, whether they were caused by the virus or not.

Had she been informed, she could have made a better decision on how to treat him, i.e., wear gloves and be aware. Now, she'll have to go through a series of HIV tests.

Really, the onus was on the man with seizures. The landlord's answer was wrong, and they should have encouraged the man to tell the rest of the roommates, as they are probably forbidden to do so (of course this may vary by state law, etc.) It puts the landlords in an awkward situation. Legally, I have no idea where this could go.

I Think balancing act summed it up very well. I am an RN - but I'm not a lawyer. My gut reaction was the same - It's a privacy issue. The responsibility was on the patient to inform those he wished to. My personal opinion - when your friend identified herself as a nurse and promised to take care of him if needed in an emergency and insure that 911 was contacted - I think he had the moral obligation to inform her at the very least. That way she could have approached the situation with protective gloves etc. As balancingact mentioned - laws vary from state to state - the landlords may have been prohibited from disclosing the mans personal medical history, they just chose the wrong way to explain themselves.

The good news is that it's not that easy to get infected with the HIV virus (even needlesticks in hospitals rarily transition into aids)- very weak virus outside of the body - although deaking with blood products unprotected DOES certainly put you at some risk. I'll be sending prayers and positive energy to your friend that she tests out negative. LW

[FalconAngel]

The landlords may not have a moral or legal responsibility to say anything about it, but the guy certainly did.
The minute that he mentioned about having problems with seizures, the possibility of more serious injuries (such as what happened) related to the seizures made it a moral and legal responsibility for him to inform his roommates.

Particularly if one of them is in the medical profession and has already volunteered to help if there is a problem.

What the guy did was abhorrent and it is his responsibility to make it as right as is possible.

Aids, as we all know, is not something to take lightly and it is serious enough that people who have contracted HIV are compelled, by law in most states, to inform potential sexual partners that they have the virus and take appropriate precautions or be imprisoned for not doing so.

[frikidiki]

What an awful situation! I can't help but to feel really sorry for all involved. However, the complete failure of personal responsibility is outrageous and should be a caution to us all.

I have to agree with questioning the nurse about her training in bloodborne pathogens. In this day & age, how could she not know? I realize that someone was bleeding and injured, but even in the E.R. with patients' lives at stake they take precautions. On that note, I don't think she has a case in court at all, but I'm not a lawyer.

I think the roommate should've said something. It may have helped if the landlord was involved in that conversation as well, especially to protect business interests and to be sure other arrangements could be made if the current tenants objected to having an HIV+ roommate. I don't believe the landlord is actually allowed to reveal that information without permission from the roommate, anyway, so he probably couldn't be considered negligent or anything like that. On the other hand, if the nurse does have a case at all, it would be against the roommate--that would be pretty rotten to see, though, considering he'd need his money and energy to fight off suffering and dying.

Not too long ago, while working under a trailer, I scraped a hard-to-reach spot on my back and it began to bleed rather nicely. I asked another trucker to apply a bandage to a nasty scrape on the middle of my back. I don't have anything more dangerous to put on someone else than controllable dandruff, but out of consideration for her, I offered her some gloves so she didn't have to touch the blood. The point I'm making is that responsibility doesn't diminish even if the roommate is suffering from conditions that aren't his fault (let's not split hairs about how he got HIV--the fact that he had it at all is enough here).

I don't mean to sound cold, Cat--I really hope nothing worse comes out of this, and I've said a prayer, too. Good luck to them all.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Thank you Sweetie. See, she didnt know he had Aids when she went to his aide, and I can understand her fear and upset, because of her little daughter. I told her I didnt know Washington law, so she'd have to seek legal counsol on this. I believe that the roomie Should have said something to the other roomies, and the callous remarks of the Land Lords didnt surprise me any.
I know she'll be fine, but my main question was: what would YA'LL do in the same situation, and how would you feel if this had happened to you....:}
Hugs to all of you for your kind thoughts.
Your Cat

[Mr. Magick]

I have worked in a hospital or 2, I can tell you every time I have been exposed my heart stopped. I always imagined the worst for myself and my family. Tell your friend I'm praying for her.

[HighEnergy]

The landlords are not allowed to tell anyone legally. It would violate his privacy. It's why precautions are universal. If she knew she was taking care of someone with health problems at home, she should have brought home some supplies for just this occasion. Most health care workers I know, myself included at one point, have a Laerdal mask for a barreir during CPR and gloves around just in case. She knew he was sick all the time, why not assume it's blood borne?

On the bright side, it's actually difficult to get AIDS in this scenario. Unless she had an open wound, or got it splashed in her eyes/mouth/nose she should be ok. It could be worse. It could be Hep which is much easier to contract. She might want to get started on the cocktail.

[CountryLover]

Yes, the AIDS patient should have informed her when she offered to moniter his care - but she is also responsible, as a health care professional, to know about blood borne pathogens and to take appropriate precautions. Due to privacy laws, the landlords could not tell the other tenants.

The ambulance people did NOT behave appropriately IMHO. They are equipped (or should be) and should not have withheld necessary care.

I saw a pedestrian struck by a van one night, so I was first on the scene. I too had the man's blood all over me by the time the ambulance got there. The driver washed me down with peroxide and bottled water and then handed me several sets of gloves to carry in my vehicle. None of us knew the state of his health, but all of us knew to take precautions.

[FalconAngel]

Yes, the AIDS patient should have informed her when she offered to moniter his care - but she is also responsible, as a health care professional, to know about blood borne pathogens and to take appropriate precautions. Due to privacy laws, the landlords could not tell the other tenants.

The ambulance people did NOT behave appropriately IMHO. They are equipped (or should be) and should not have withheld necessary care.

I saw a pedestrian struck by a van one night, so I was first on the scene. I too had the man's blood all over me by the time the ambulance got there. The driver washed me down with peroxide and bottled water and then handed me several sets of gloves to carry in my vehicle. None of us knew the state of his health, but all of us knew to take precautions.

Down here, everyone doing any medical work wears gloves for every single procedure they do. I think that it's a state medical regulation. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, even the techs taking samples for the doctors all wear gloves for everything.

Of course, not everything works out in such a way that everyone has the time to put gloves on. It's different in the field than in a hospital or other medical facility.
In the field, seconds count when someone is bleeding profusely. I learned that in field first aid training in the Army.

[pottzie]

I'm a fan of Dan Savage and his "Savage Love" column. I'd be interested in his views on this.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=999857

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

A good friend of mine works with Dan, and I havent brought this artical up to him as of yet. Knowing Dan and Scotty Dont, they'd tear hell out of it..lol
Cat

[vittoria]

Considering the stigma that comes with the HIV virus, and the isolation involved, I feel sorry for the guy that he had to hide his illness like he was a criminal. I know there are meds that can make the virus undetectable and non transmittable. I dont think he probably expecting to have his blood all over the restroom as a result of a seizure either. I feel bad for the nurse also, but dont they treat the HIV positive as well? I would check the local laws about the situation, but from what I understand is that the person would have to tell anyone in a sexual relationship that they are positive or expect reprecussions ( for instance attempted murder charges.. from what I understand). I would google it. Also found out that HIV isnt transmitted by touch, so I personally dont think that you have to worry about the daughter "catching" anything because he was reading her a book.

[Mr. Magick]

to my knowledge that is true, any exposure that we worried about in the hospital was blood related the Daughter was really not in any danger from simple touching. To be honest in some settings the hospitals take greater precautions for Mrsa infection than they do for HIV.

[rissababynta]

When I worked on the ambulance we were told that every patient is to be treated as if they have HIV or any other contagious thing that a person could have. We never had any problems and the patients appreciated the precautions we'd take.

[BreeIsMe]

Rissababy is correct, "universal precautions" should be taken by everyone regarding body fluid contact. I work in hospitals and have been exposed to blood even in needle sticks so I have been possibly exposed but I remain HIV negative. There are protocols to follow if accidental exposure is encountered but the only thing I find morally objectionable is the way the emergency technicians acted when they knew this poor man had HIV. Since they are taught to exercise universal precautions, it shouldn't have made one bit of a difference. This type of hysterical reaction is why the man was probably afraid to reveal he has HIV. it is an unfortunate situation but this is why education about the disease and universal precautions is so important. AND UNDERSTANDING>..

Bree

[rissababynta]

the only thing I find morally objectionable is the way the emergency technicians acted when they knew this poor man had HIV. Since they are taught to exercise universal precautions, it shouldn't have made one bit of a difference. This type of hysterical reaction is why the man was probably afraid to reveal he has HIV. it is an unfortunate situation but this is why education about the disease and universal precautions is so important. AND UNDERSTANDING>..

Bree

I was actually thinking the same exact thing because it is so unlike trained professionals to behave this way.

[not_ur_typical_girl]

to my knowledge that is true, any exposure that we worried about in the hospital was blood related the Daughter was really not in any danger from simple touching. To be honest in some settings the hospitals take greater precautions for Mrsa infection than they do for HIV.

I have worked in nursing homes and a CNA since i was 16, so It's been over 8 years, and I have to agree with you...When we know someone has aides (which i have had on resident who did) we just use universal precautions....But with MRSA depending on where it is they take greater precautions...Like isolation ect....

[12voltman59]

I do agree that this person had the moral and maybe even a legal responsibilty to tell his new roomates he has AIDS---but not the landlord's repsonsibility--legally if they had told the tenants---they could have been in trouble with right to privacy laws and such--

As far as the first responder EMS technician freaking out about the person with AIDS--that seems kind of odd since with people who do that kind of work--they now operate on the assumption that EVERYONE HAS AIDS---look at the way your dentists and assistants dress now when doing dental procedures----they look like they are working in one of those Army labs that have some deadly virus in them or something!!

With AIDS----blood is now automatically assumed to be a high level BioHazard substance----so I really have to question the response of that Paramedic---unless the unit that responded was not an emergency response unit---but one of those transport amublances.

I do hope your friend will be allright and as long as she didn't have a cut someplace---hopefully the nasties in that blood did not get into her body.