One in the Eye for Fran

[darkeyes]

Ok..so you've shut us down.. thats ok.. no skin off my nose.. I have been a member of this site almost since its inception, and occasionally chatted on its predecessor. I've had loads of fun and many terrific barneys with many people in chat and in forums. Now I find myself gagged..and not in a nice way.. So Gaza is a no no now huh? Of course it stirred passions.. war does that sort of thing..

I don't like censorship but that is precisely what we have here. If all we are allowed to get passionate about on .com is shagging, sucking, cream pies, cock size then we do ourselves no favours. It gives a signal to the wider world that we are what they often think of us.. perverts with nothing in our heads but sex with whoever is closest to hand.. well I have a brain in my head..however much sex and my sexuality means to me, that is a personal thing..something I am not ashamed of but I am about far more than sex and sexuality. The world I live in and its inhabitants, and not just human inhabitants either, mean at least as much and on a certain level much much more than my lifestyle. And now I find myself unable to express a view because Drew says so... I have more than once been concerned about the level of censorship on site but in the main these have been relatively unimportant issues at least to me and like a fool I didnt press too hard. This time I find myself unable to let it pass.

I will not be gagged, and will not allow discussion on a matter which whether we like it or not affects us all, and potentially in a very, very important way, be stopped without expressing my disgust in an appallingly high handed action. I know this site is primarily about sex and sexuality.. but are we not more than that? Do we not have other things we care about? Or does what goes on in the wider world not affect us? Are we immune? Well I care, and being stopped from expressing how I feel is censorship.. so much for the free society. It is because I care for freedom of speech and freedom of action in my and everyone elses lives, that I increasingly think I no longer belong here. It has been on my mind for some time, but I love this site and the people on it.. well.. mostly I love it..and most of the people... It is not a move I would make lightly, but I am seriously considering it.

If I decide to go on a matter of principle I go and stay gone... I'll let you talk about your shagging and knob sizes while I spend more time in the real world... I take this personally.. really personally and think Drew's action in shuttin the debate down is worthy of any repressive state...

[csrakate]

Fran,
Please, don't misconstrue Drew's actions as a slight on your rights of free speech. What was most offensive was not the subject matter, nor the passion with which you or anyone else spoke. It was the level to which this thread sunk with the name calling and the insults that were being hurled. Having an intelligent discussion is one thing, but when it becomes so vicious that groups of people are being put down, individuals are being called names and rational thought has been taken over by knee jerk reactions, it has ceased to be productive and simply denigrates the subject for which you so clearly have a great deal of passion for. I can't stop you from feeling the way that you do, but I urge you to think about the realities of how this thread disintegrated instead of feeling that you were being censored. The behavior that took place in this thread wasn't in adherence with the guidelines established for this forum and when such a thing occurs, Drew has every right to put a stop to it.

Kate

[allbimyself]

Fran,

You know me luffs ya, but...

In this case you need to climb down off your cross. You are not being persecuted. You are not being censored. Drew made it quite plain why he locked the thread and do notice that he locked it, he didn't delete it. He never said the topic was taboo, only the way people were behaving. The discussion had, for the most part, degenerated into name calling and other personal attacks and that aspect was accelerating. There's no point in keeping the thread open when that happens.

His actions were not directed at you, but rather the people who couldn't keep the discussion civil.

It isn't like you to play the victim when you aren't, and you aren't in this case.

[**Peg**]

ah!

I had a feeling there was trouble in the thread "Eyeless in Gaza" when someone in chat asked me last night if I had read the thread. Frankly, the title alone turned me in the opposite direction, and so I didn't even read the first posting in it, having just seen the evening news about the fighting in Gaza and the CBC's Fifth Estate Kandahar report on what our Canuck forces are facing every day.

Honey, I agree with allbi and kate and Drew. A lifestyle forum is, IMO not the place for a heated political discussion, because I believe that many people come here to get away from the brutality of reality, as I do. To decompress, as it were.

IMO this is one of the best lifestyle chatrooms out there and Drew is (IMO again) doing a great job of TCB and being proactive. He cannot allow inflammatory comments nor incidents to run riot over his domain.

Peg

[12voltman59]

The now locked thread does go to show that it is seemingly impossible to discuss serious issues like this---anywhere it seems---in a civil manner--that is too bad.

I wish that people could just be able to state their views of things---then just go on----that is what I did----

I just stated my views in the two posts I did----and I certainly did not get personal---I simply posted my views and moved on----

I like to be able to be free to discuss all sorts of topics on this site----I do feel that discussion of things political does have a place here to be certain----since many of the things that happens in politics affects the world and people-----many of those issues--maybe not this particular one----but others certainly do affect our lives---certainly in the areas of sexualty and such---

In the case of Drew locking the thread----it was a matter I think of the discussion getting too contentious for it to reasonably continue, sorry as I am to have to say that---it was not a matter of censorship in this case--just a matter of trying to cut off something negative for the site.

[bret5668]

Having strong opinions and feelings and passion about any given topic are wonderful, however, when you totally disagree with someone else s opinion there are proper and improper ways of doing it, just because someone happens to disagree with you does not mean they are wrong and you are right, nor does it mean they are right and you are wrong. That's what great about humanity, we all view things differently.

How dull and boring would this world be if we all thought alike.

To banter back and forth here about politics and religion is anyone's right. I however will not partake in those discussions, because personally I believe it just causes issues such as name calling, ill will, and hostility for many people due to their inability to discuss these topics calmly and rationally.

After all....isn't there enough bad blood, ill will, and hostility in this world already?

I have always been under the impression this was supposed to be chat/support avenue not a bickering forum. (silly me)

[darkeyes]

I received several messages from members about me lil paddie this morning. One didn't half have me in floods.. Show is a such a silly sausage.. took me quite unawares as if me knickers were suddenly down by me ankles.. which they were metaphorically speaking...

It must be that I have a very narrow view of what gagging and censorship are. Drew has left the discussion up but has pretty sharply brought it to an end. That is gagging. Prevention of further discussion is censorship. I understand why it has been done, because I am no fool whatever else people think of me. Good order and to possibly let tempers cool. Mine has cooled but I am afraid I am not in good order. I remain upset and their is still an inner seethe. I am not the victim here Allbi.. free debate is.

Gaza is an issue about which I have as much passion as any in recent times. I do not expect others to agree with me necessarily, for we all have views and opinions and we should be allowed to express them.. certainly several people were gettin right personal, and no one enjoys being called an idiot.. but I can live with that, and it isn't something which I will lose sleep over.. if only other people were like minded and a little thicker skinned.. but while the debate was getting heated, and some comments were a little near the knuckle at no time as far as I could see, did it get out of hand. Indeed, if you believe the content of this debate is out of hand just look at the letters columns of any mainstream daily newspaper or telly news channel websites. I wish any of you could have been at the anti war demonstrations or meetings I have attended this week... passions run high ok..and while people got riled up, they didn't..in my opinion get out of hand... far worse things were said than any in the debate I began in forums... and even more personally aimed at me and others... I have been accosted in the street, on campus, in the pub and at my bus stop.. but it is someting I believe in and will not give up those beliefs.. and will not accept what I believe is a matter of censorship... we are grown up now supposedly...no one here has been harmed or killed... we cannot say that about Gaza.. THEY are the real victims..

I accept that this is a site which has a specific support/informative/chat purpose...yet I ask...within the Palestinan community in Gaza..take aside that they are human beings for now... and within the Israeli nation itself... are their not Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian people being bombed, shot at and killed? Forget our personal prejudices about Judaism or Islam, about Palestine or Israel... do we forget them?? Are they really nothing to do with us? Both countries have Christian and Athiest/Agnostic populations who and western minded people who hate what is happening.. there are within those communities people who are none of these things..do we let them go to the wall? Do we have nothing to say? From whichever political stand point we may have? These pages over the last few years have been full of many contentious non sexual issues. We are human beings and we all care about many things. We may not agree with each other at every turn..and tempers will rise and hackles will go up.. but to stop a debate becasue a few people get personal and tempers rise?

God... I better go because I feel my inner self begin to seethe just a little more...:(

[onewhocares]

Fran,
Please, don't misconstrue Drew's actions as a slight on your rights of free speech. What was most offensive was not the subject matter, nor the passion with which you or anyone else spoke. It was the level to which this thread sunk with the name calling and the insults that were being hurled. Having an intelligent discussion is one thing, but when it becomes so vicious that groups of people are being put down, individuals are being called names and rational thought has been taken over by knee jerk reactions, it has ceased to be productive and simply denigrates the subject for which you so clearly have a great deal of passion for. I can't stop you from feeling the way that you do, but I urge you to think about the realities of how this thread disintegrated instead of feeling that you were being censored. The behavior that took place in this thread wasn't in adherence with the guidelines established for this forum and when such a thing occurs, Drew has every right to put a stop to it.

Kate

Frances I must agree with Kate and those others who have posted hence....while most agree that this site is primarily a site geared toward sexuality, how boring would it be if that was all that we spoke of. The various and interesting subjects of the threads is something that I find most enjoyable. But this particular thread has exceeded the common bounds of politeness and dipped into waters that I think action should have been taken and it is Drew's prerogative to curtain further inflammatory comments. Please do not take this as a personal reflection upon you. PLEASE reconsider your thoughts of leaving...I would miss my luffy immensely.

Belle

[allbimyself]

Fran,

Again you are hung up on the topic which has nothing to do with Drew's actions directly.

Furthermore, free speech does not apply to private entities, it applies to government. Drew asking people to control their language, abuse, nastiness, etc. is NOT a free speech issue.

[CUMM2LBV]

DARK:

PARDON ME FOR ADDRESSING YOU BY YOUR FIRST NAME.

HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF RANTING AND WHINING ABOUT BEING VICTIMIZED BY A COMMUNITY THAT YOU INSIST UPON IMPOSING YOUR VIEWS ON, WHY DON'T YOU YOU JUST HAVE YOUR CLITORIS EXCISED, DON A BIRKHA AND JOIN THE RABBLE URINATING AND DEFECATING IN THE STREET AND ARE OFFENDED BY THE DECENT AND HARD WORKING PEOPLE OF YOUR COUNTRY THAT GO OFF EACH AND EVERY DAY TO WORK AND PAY THE TAXES THAT SUPPORT THEM IN A LIFESTYLE THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY UNAVAILABLE TO THEM ON THE DUNG HEAP FROM WHICH THEY CRAWLED OUT OF.

PERHAPS YOU MIGHT PUBLICLY CONFESS YOUR ADHERANCE TO A LIFESTYLE THAT IS AT LEAST TOLERATED IF NOT ACCEPTED IN YOUR COUNTRY THAT THEY CONSIDER AN ABOMINATION. THEN YOU COULD ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE STONED IN THE STREETS AND ACHIEVE THE PRECIOUS MARTYRHOOD THAT YOU SEEM TO SO DESPERATELY CRAVE.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

Again you are hung up on the topic which has nothing to do with Drew's actions directly.

Furthermore, free speech does not apply to private entities, it applies to government. Drew asking people to control their language, abuse, nastiness, etc. is NOT a free speech issue.

I accept Drew asking people to argue reasonably is not a free speech issue. Neither am I hung up on this, but I feel strongly enough to argue the point which is at issue. Also I accept within our society there are limitations on free speech. I do not accept your point that it simply applies to government but to us all in every sphere of life.

The question is not what limitations should be put on freedom of speech but whether there should be any. I do think that we all have a responsibility never to incite violence or hatred on people for whatever reason.. whether those limitations should be placed into law is another matter.. when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of expression I am essentially a libertarian but about opening up freedom of speech to racists and hate mongers I have the gravest reservations.. I may thiink libertarian on this issue but not absolutely...

ahhh Allbi..jus like the ole days...we argy bargyin..God me feels so much betta!!! ... an me luffs u an all by the way...:tong:

[darkeyes]

DARK:

PARDON ME FOR ADDRESSING YOU BY YOUR FIRST NAME.

HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF RANTING AND WHINING ABOUT BEING VICTIMIZED BY A COMMUNITY THAT YOU INSIST UPON IMPOSING YOUR VIEWS ON, WHY DON'T YOU YOU JUST HAVE YOUR CLITORIS EXCISED, DON A BIRKHA AND JOIN THE RABBLE URINATING AND DEFECATING IN THE STREET AND ARE OFFENDED BY THE DECENT AND HARD WORKING PEOPLE OF YOUR COUNTRY THAT GO OFF EACH AND EVERY DAY TO WORK AND PAY THE TAXES THAT SUPPORT THEM IN A LIFESTYLE THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY UNAVAILABLE TO THEM ON THE DUNG HEAP FROM WHICH THEY CRAWLED OUT OF.

PERHAPS YOU MIGHT PUBLICLY CONFESS YOUR ADHERANCE TO A LIFESTYLE THAT IS AT LEAST TOLERATED IF NOT ACCEPTED IN YOUR COUNTRY THAT THEY CONSIDER AN ABOMINATION. THEN YOU COULD ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE STONED IN THE STREETS AND ACHIEVE THE PRECIOUS MARTYRHOOD THAT YOU SEEM TO SO DESPERATELY CRAVE.

Very constructive contribution... what does it mean really? Seems a bit confused to me..and so very tolerant and humanist.. and dont shout ..I have a migraine...:(

[allbimyself]

I do not accept your point that it simply applies to government but to us all in every sphere of life. No, fran, you are wrong.

The owner of a website, or a magazine, or a newspaper, etc, etc CAN restrict what is said, written, communicated via the medium they own. You can't expect to go to any media outlet and demand they become a vehicle for what you want to say.

If you invited someone to your home, say for a dinner party, only to find out he was a racist, sexist, homophobic wind bag that filled the conversation with his hate, would you ask him to leave? Would you invite him back? If you asked him to leave or not invite him back would you be infringing his freedom of speech?

I'd throw the worthless shit out with the garbage. HOWEVER, if the government arrested him for speaking his views I would rise to his defense.


when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of expression I am essentially a libertarian but about opening up freedom of speech to racists and hate mongers I have the gravest reservations
Wrong again. Free speech is nothing if any of us can pick and choose what is said by others. Holocaust deniers are sick, twisted, stupid individuals, but most of Europe has stepped over the line by criminalizing those that say so.

However, if I owned a website and someone said it, I'd be well within my rights as owner of the website to block his access and delete his comments if I so wished.

[allbimyself]

Very constructive contribution... what does it mean really? Seems a bit confused to me..and so very tolerant and humanist.. and dont shout ..I have a migraine...:(

Just another troll, iggy him.

[csrakate]

Fran,
As I said in my email to you earlier, I admire your commitment to causes, your desire to affect change and your tenacity in seeking that change. I haven't always agreed with you but I have always supported your right to speak your mind. But those things aside, this is NOT about your right to speak your mind....this is NOT about censorship...and this is NOT about turning a blind eye to a truly horrific situation. This is about decorum, plain and simple! This is a site where we can share our thoughts, our beliefs and our dreams and while some of those things may not always be pleasant, we have to conduct ourselves in a certain manner in order for there to be a peaceful coexistence between ALL chatters and ALL members. In order to achieve and maintain that existence, there have to be guidelines as to conduct and behavior and if those guidelines were not in place, I promise you this site and most definitely this forum would become a free for all!



I don't like censorship but that is precisely what we have here. If all we are allowed to get passionate about on .com is shagging, sucking, cream pies, cock size then we do ourselves no favours. It gives a signal to the wider world that we are what they often think of us.. perverts with nothing in our heads but sex with whoever is closest to hand..
You say that this site should not allow itself to be perceived by those who criticize bisexuality and alternative lifestyles by merely allowing threads of a sexual nature and I do agree with you there, but just what kind of message do you think we are sending if we allow comments in our threads that spew anti-Semitic as well as anti-Muslim vitriol? How does it look when a site that promotes itself as being a safe haven for those of a like kind and who's membership spans across many countries provides a forum for it's very own members to attack the ideals of one country versus another? Just how does it look when we allow a poster to flagrantly demean another with profanity and hatred? I fail to see how you can find any of that behavior more acceptable and a better public perception of this site and it's membership simply because it is in the heat of a debate.

There is a time and a place for everything and yes, serious topics can and should be discussed and debated. But if those threads cannot maintain a sense of decorum and if we allow all hell to break loose because it gets overly heated, I truly believe we are doing more harm than good in regards to anyone's perception of this group. Just my :2cents:

[csrakate]

If the owner of the site doesn't want political threads they should post something about this.

AGAIN..I repeat myself..it's not about the subject of the thread....it's about how the posters conducted themselves in that thread.

[allbimyself]

If the owner of the site doesn't want political threads they should post something about this.

If you look at the top of the portion of the page titled "Posting Rules" it states "2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person." and "4. Have fun. Learn. Share. Entertain. Discuss. Argue. Enlighten."

It may seem to you that the thread was locked because it was a political topic. However, the thread is still there and you can go read WHY it was locked. Basically, for repeated and flagrant violations of Rule 2, NOT because it was political.

[allbimyself]

In addition to Kate's point, Fran, you claim to be non-violent, perhaps a pacifist. However, if political debates cannot be civil they cannot be productive. If they cannot be productive, eventually you either stop talking about it, or one side or both will result to violence. That's how fist fights and wars start.

[Brian]

All I was suggesting, in closing the other thread, was a time out for everyone to consider posting rule number 2. I was thinking someone would start another Gaza thread in a few days after a cool-off period and everything would be more civil and that would be great.

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Falke]

In addition to Kate's point, Fran, you claim to be non-violent, perhaps a pacifist. However, if political debates cannot be civil they cannot be productive. If they cannot be productive, eventually you either stop talking about it, or one side or both will result to violence. That's how fist fights and wars start.


Pretty much, and its quite easy to get to that point.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Fran Honey. Just come get a big hug from me take a few deep breaths and snuggle in for a few minutes. Draw some strength and relax a bit. And dont Even think about leaving us. We all love and respect you too much for that. Love of good friends is so very important.
We all know your passion, and know your heart, and we dont want to see you leave our lives over a thread.
Just stay here where you are loved and liked.
Big warm snuggly Motherly boob hugs..lol
Cat

[CuddlyKate]

I'm afraid she is in one of her peeves and we are fast running out of soap boxes. Frances is really upset about it all. She may talk tough, but doesn't relish strife although when it happens she will not run from it.

You all know as well as I that she has a wonderfully peculiar, usually pertinent and sometimes even correct view of the world. She doesn't mind being in a minority of one, but I am sure once her irritation has soothed she will come round and see the truth of it. At this moment she feels slighted but it won't last once she has really thought about it.

More than anything she feels the wind has been taken out of her sails and has been thwarted from discussing something which she feels is very important. Give her a day or two and I expect she will be fine.

[DubTak]

Imagine, if you will, that the downward spiral of the Gaza thread happened not on a forum but on a major street in a major city. At the level of shouting and violent rhetoric that that thread reached, police would be called and would arrest the participants for domestic disturbance (or at least a noise complaint). On a much larger scale, the kind of charged emotions that began running in that thread are the kind of emotions that drive two peoples to war.

Drew did his duty as moderator, which is to moderate. It is his duty to keep conversations on this site from turning into a shouting match or an all-out verbal brawl. Much like a referee forces boxers into their corners when they appear to be on the brink of losing their restraint and breaking rules, much like a bartender signals the bouncer to remove two angry drunks, a forum moderator swoops in and prevents large scale conflict on the forum.

I would propose that the reasons for your anger, dark, are not that the thread was locked, which is actually a rather common occurrence on open-topic, community forums, but rather that you feel your opinions on the Gaza situation are being ignored or, worse yet, lumped in with the very flame slingers that caused the lock to begin with. Do not redirect your anger over a war at a moderator simply doing his duty. When tempers have cooled and rational thought prevails, the discussion will continue.

-DubTak

[vittoria]

All I was suggesting, in closing the other thread, was a time out for everyone to consider posting rule number 2. I was thinking someone would start another Gaza thread in a few days after a cool-off period and everything would be more civil and that would be great.

"Can't we all just get along?"


verily.

[_Joe_]

Nothing can rip up the fabric of friendships and mutual respects faster than religion and politics.

When they are both involved, it is never pretty.

[texasman6172003]

WOW WHAT THE FUCK DID I MISS????,:eek::eek:

[vittoria]

Nothing can rip up the fabric of friendships and mutual respects faster than religion and politics.

When they are both involved, it is never pretty.

Verily x 2!!!

[Hephaestion]

I'm afraid she is in one of her peeves and we are fast running out of soap boxes. Frances is really upset about it all. She may talk tough, but doesn't relish strife although when it happens she will not run from it.

You all know as well as I that she has a wonderfully peculiar, usually pertinent and sometimes even correct view of the world. She doesn't mind being in a minority of one, but I am sure once her irritation has soothed she will come round and see the truth of it. At this moment she feels slighted but it won't last once she has really thought about it.

More than anything she feels the wind has been taken out of her sails and has been thwarted from discussing something which she feels is very important. Give her a day or two and I expect she will be fine.

If today 17 Jan 2009 the UN are taking at least some of Fran's point of view then she cannot be in a minority of one.

[45&424u]

I just read the thread, and honestly see no reason for the thread to be locked. any heated debate will always bring out strong feelings and criticism for those who see things from a different view point.. so what a couple of "fuck you's" and "idiot" where thrown out, no one was personally threatened. we are are big boys and girls here and can decide for ourselves whether to participate in a thread. If a person makes an obvious idiotic statement, then they need to be called on it.

I don't see it as drew censoring the original poster, but censoring the rest of the forum members.


anyone who believes that hama's has done no wrong and didn't break the land for peace treaty, then they are delusional and see things through rose colored glasses and deserved to be called on it. may i suggest for those that are on the hamas side, please go live with them for 1 month, or plan on a 1 month stay, bet you don't make 1 week before being tortured..

the people i blame the most for this fiasco is the palestinian people themselves. when you elect a terrorist regime into power, thats what you end up with.. a terrorist state..

[darkeyes]

I have read and re-read the original thread and this one and am inside still churning with resentment at the high handed and unnecessary blocking of "Eyeless". There remains so much to say, not just by me, but those on both sides of the argument or none. I almost immediately began another thread to circumvent Drew's action but such was my seethe that as I wrote it I could see that my anger and frustration was such that I would antagonise a lot of people which is easy enough when I am being rational... so I have held back.. for now..

I understand Drew's action.. but I do think it was a bollox decision, for reasons I have outlined in earlier posts. So I sit and brood.. not too badly.. and not all the time.. for it wont spoil my weekend which is both busy and fun... great therapy if you can get it.. I can do that... and most of you also.. sadly..1.5 million Palestinians do not have that option...

.. and a nice lil difference of opinion with Allbi is always gr8 therapy... isn't it? I have missed those....

[csrakate]

I have read and re-read the original thread and this one and am inside still churning with resentment at the high handed and unnecessary blocking of "Eyeless".

Fran,
You obviously love debate but part of debate is LISTENING to other people. I have tried to make you understand until I am blue in the face but you really don't even seem to hear anything I have said. But what hurts the most is that you only make reference to delighting in having a difference of opinion with Allbi. I am beginning to understand that this is what you want...you enjoy stirring it up and having debates.... and if that is the case, I will save my breath. And here I was thinking I needed to make you feel better and was trying to convince you not to be hurt by your perception of that thread being locked.

Just remember....You can't change the world with merely YOUR words and YOUR voice....sometimes you need to HEAR the words of others! And please....no need to start a debate with me over this...I am done.

[Michael623]

This seems to be more about whose site this is, ours or Drew's. We all agreed to his rules when we joined.

[curious44]

Right, Mike. When this thread got started I thought, "The discussion from the locked thread just got moved over here." Make a rule, someone will find a way around it. Funny how it usually works that way.

[rissababynta]

Right, Mike. When this thread got started I thought, "The discussion from the locked thread just got moved over here." Make a rule, someone will find a way around it. Funny how it usually works that way.

So did I...

[darkeyes]

Fran,
You obviously love debate but part of debate is LISTENING to other people. I have tried to make you understand until I am blue in the face but you really don't even seem to hear anything I have said. But what hurts the most is that you only make reference to delighting in having a difference of opinion with Allbi. I am beginning to understand that this is what you want...you enjoy stirring it up and having debates.... and if that is the case, I will save my breath. And here I was thinking I needed to make you feel better and was trying to convince you not to be hurt by your perception of that thread being locked.

Just remember....You can't change the world with merely YOUR words and YOUR voice....sometimes you need to HEAR the words of others! And please....no need to start a debate with me over this...I am done.

Mumsy...don tell me yas sensa humour has disappeared an all.. 1ce upon a time asya may memba allbi an me wer not close... we r triff m8s now but we been agreein 2 much..it wos a lil joke jus 2 show me not lost me sensa humor completely... Allbi undastood that..least me thinks 'e did... didntcha ratbag??:tong:

..an me always hears wot othas say...if me didn me cudn reply cud me?? ..an always lissen 2 u...mong otha peeps..moren me lifes worth not 2..:eek:

[Sarasvati]

[QUOTE=csrakate;120186]Drew has every right to put a stop to it KateQUOTE]


He has the power to stop it, but not the right! By doing so,the adage "might is right" makes an unwelcome return.

[csrakate]

I am so very tired of beating my head into a wall when it comes to this. The man owns the freaking site. He has set up guidelines and "rules" for usage and we don't pay him a single dime to use his site. He takes the time to maintain this site and quite honestly, would be the one to have to put up with any "legal" situations that may come from certain types of behavior. And...I might add...we all agreed to these guidelines and rules when we joined the site. So....I don't know where you are coming up with the "might is right" crap....but that is so far off the mark in this case. He has the power and yes....HE HAS THE RIGHT.

[allbimyself]

He has the power to stop it, but not the right! By doing so,the adage "might is right" makes an unwelcome return.

Oh please! Do you honestly think that? That has to be one of the most fascist statements I've read in some time.

[Sarasvati]

ah!I believe that many people come here to get away from the brutality of reality, as I do. To decompress, as it were.
Peg

Why should that be a requirement of other contributors? While you may wish to escape from life, not all of us here are afraid of reality and many of us love to get stuck into the relevant issues of the day.

The issues that Darkeyes sought to highlight are immensely important and her thread was no threat to anyone who didn't want to get involved. They could just read another thread or do something else. She and many others enjoyed the thread even if it did get heated.

If this action should result in the loss of Darkeyes as a contributor it will be a very sad day - and this site will be so much the poorer.

Some may delight in that - I don't.

[allbimyself]

Sara, you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Once more, for the hard of reading, THE THREAD WAS CLOSED BECAUSE OF BEHAVIOR NOT THE TOPIC!

[csrakate]

Why should that be a requirement of other contributors? While you may wish to escape from life, not all of us here are afraid of reality and many of us love to get stuck into the relevant issues of the day.

The issues that Darkeyes sought to highlight are immensely important and her thread was no threat to anyone who didn't want to get involved. They could just read another thread or do something else. She and many others enjoyed the thread even if it did get heated.

If this action should result in the loss of Darkeyes as a contributor it will be a very sad day - and this site will be so much the poorer.

Some may delight in that - I don't.
You obviously have had your head in the sand for that last several days. No one was censoring Darkeyes....no one was attempting to keep her from posting her feelings....The reason the thread got locked was to allow some tempers to calm down....tempers I might add that had gotten out of hand in response to her posts and evolved into racist comments and hateful remarks....but in no way were her posts removed or censored. Plain and simple. Don't try to make a big deal out of something that didn't happen....and don't try to justify poor behavior in the quest for free speech.

[Sarasvati]

I am so very tired of beating my head into a wall when it comes to this. The man owns the freaking site. He has set up guidelines and "rules" for usage and we don't pay him a single dime to use his site. He takes the time to maintain this site and quite honestly, would be the one to have to put up with any "legal" situations that may come from certain types of behavior. And...I might add...we all agreed to these guidelines and rules when we joined the site. So....I don't know where you are coming up with the "might is right" crap....but that is so far off the mark in this case. He has the power and yes....HE HAS THE RIGHT.

Would it not have been possible for the moderator to have a private chat with Darkeyes, recognise the value of her contribution to the site, and then persuade her to curtail the thread in the interest of bonhommie?

By such means he may have achieved his goal without upsetting her so badly.

I understand that he has authority on this site and thank him for his efforts in setting it up. However, his methodology has resulted in a very valuable contributor feeling slapped down, hurt and possibly, betrayed.

[Sarasvati]

Sara, you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Once more, for the hard of reading, THE THREAD WAS CLOSED BECAUSE OF BEHAVIOR NOT THE TOPIC!

She has herself answered this point in her opening post.

Folks, although you may disagree strongly with me, I hope you will accept it is reasonable for me to put my points across.

[csrakate]

Would it not have been possible for the moderator to have a private chat with Darkeyes, recognise the value of her contribution to the site, and then persuade her to curtail the thread in the interest of bonhommie?

By such means he may have achieved his goal without upsetting her so badly.

I understand that he has authority on this site and thank him for his efforts in setting it up. However, his methodology has resulted in a very valuable contributor feeling slapped down, hurt and possibly, betrayed.

:banghead:Why should he have to discuss it with her at all if his issue was not with her contribution but with the behavior of some of her responders? Are you not comprehending a single word that has been said about this situation?? This was NOT about Darkeyes...this was not about the subject matter that Darkeyes posted! This was about the behavior that some displayed when their tempers got the better of them and they were no longer arguing a topic, but flaming and attacking the poster and groups of people. So no...taking Darkeyes aside would not have done a damn thing....and would have put the focus of blame on HER and where it was NEVER intended to be. Need I say more???

[allbimyself]

Why would he do that? Fran wasn't the one causing the problem.

Let me make it clear that I consider Fran a very good friend. However, Drew was clear when he locked the thread WHY he was doing so. Unfortunately, Fran chose to take it as a slight against her. That's on her, not Drew.

[allbimyself]

She has herself answered this point in her opening post.

Folks, although you may disagree strongly with me, I hope you will accept it is reasonable for me to put my points across.It is reasonable, as long as you accept it as reasonable for others to point out the flaws in your points.

[Sarasvati]

You obviously have had your head in the sand for that last several days.

With respect I would suggest this line is personal abuse. It doesn't matter to me very much but I think it is worth pointing out.

Of course it may be true. But I can handle the possibility I am in the wrong.

My posts here are aimed at discussing calmly a number of points (in which I may be right or wrong) and I hope we won't allow this to become unpleasant. That's not my aim.

[csrakate]

Excuse me for stepping out of line with that comment...but as a close friend of Fran's, I have spent a great deal of time hoping to calm her down and unfortunately your comments seemed to ignite a fear in me that this was going to start all over again. I should not have said that and for doing so, I am sorry. I hope you see where I am coming from as well and understand that I have been rather frustrated with this entire situation. That doesn't give me the right, however, to sling insults your way.

Kate

[Sarasvati]

:banghead:Why should he have to discuss it with her at all if his issue was not with her contribution but with the behavior of some of her responders? Are you not comprehending a single word that has been said about this situation?? This was NOT about Darkeyes...this was not about the subject matter that Darkeyes posted! This was about the behavior that some displayed when their tempers got the better of them and they were no longer arguing a topic, but flaming and attacking the poster and groups of people. So no...taking Darkeyes aside would not have done a damn thing....and would have put the focus of blame on HER and where it was NEVER intended to be. Need I say more???

The issue is that Darkeyes feels personally affronted. While she may not have been the direct target, she has taken it so.

The concern is not the topic indeed nor any associated behaviour - the concern is the possible loss of a contributor of the quality of Darkeyes.

It's a bad day for this site if her "friends" achieve this outcome.

[csrakate]

Sara...I appreciate your concern..truly I do, but why are you wanting to dredge this all up when we are trying to put it to rest? Fran may have posted certain things in this thread that lead you to feel as you do, but have you really "talked" to her in the last 24 hours? Have you even attempted to understand that she perhaps is dealing with this situation as an adult and that we should allow her the time to do so?? Please...I know you are well meaning, but coming in on the tail end of a situation and dragging out all of the bad feelings once more is hardly beneficial. I beg of you, let it go and allow Fran the time she needs to get where she needs to be. Don't presume that she is asking you to fight any sort of battle for her....and don't presume that you are doing this site any good by doing so.

[Sarasvati]

Excuse me for stepping out of line with that comment...but as a close friend of Fran's, I have spent a great deal of time hoping to calm her down and unfortunately your comments seemed to ignite a fear in me that this was going to start all over again. I should not have said that and for doing so, I am sorry. I hope you see where I am coming from as well and understand that I have been rather frustrated with this entire situation. That doesn't give me the right, however, to sling insults your way.

Kate

Thank you for these words. This earns my respect for whatever that is worth to you.

Although I may put my views forward in a forthright (indeed quasi arrogant way at times) I always accept that I may be in the wrong and always welcome counter arguments.

I hope you agree that Darkeyes feelings and possible loss are an important topic for us to consider.

[Sarasvati]

Sara...I appreciate your concern..truly I do, but why are you wanting to dredge this all up when we are trying to put it to rest? Fran may have posted certain things in this thread that lead you to feel as you do, but have you really "talked" to her in the last 24 hours? Have you even attempted to understand that she perhaps is dealing with this situation as an adult and that we should allow her the time to do so?? Please...I know you are well meaning, but coming in on the tail end of a situation and dragging out all of the bad feelings once more is hardly beneficial. I beg of you, let it go and allow Fran the time she needs to get where she needs to be. Don't presume that she is asking you to fight any sort of battle for her....and don't presume that you are doing this site any good by doing so.

Well spoken. I shall let this subject drop now, your advice is very sensible.

But I do pray that she returns soon - with all guns (pacifistic guns of course) blazing!!!

[allbimyself]

The issue is that Darkeyes feels personally affronted. While she may not have been the direct target, she has taken it so.

The concern is not the topic indeed nor any associated behaviour - the concern is the possible loss of a contributor of the quality of Darkeyes.

It's a bad day for this site if her "friends" achieve this outcome.Your original issue was that Drew did not have the "right" to lock the thread. When that opinion was exposed to be BS you switched gears and made it about Fran. Now, you personally attack me and Kate by placing quotes around the word friends to indicate that you think we are not.

Just so you know, I have spoken to Fran personally and privately about this matter. She does not have an issue with Kate or myself. You have injected yourself into something that you know nothing about.

[darkeyes]

Please...dont do this... I h8 2 c peeps me luffs an care bout so badly fallin out ova me or owt me has sed...me not worth that... :( please..kissie an make up...:) an no more argy bargyin ...:)

[allbimyself]

Please...dont do this... I h8 2 c peeps me luffs an care bout so badly fallin out ova me or owt me has sed...me not worth that... :( please..kissie an make up...:) an no more argy bargyin ...:)Tart, you just can't stand arguin when you ain't the one doing it LOL

[onewhocares]

Frances.....is it a KISS you wanted..........

KISS


Belle

[jamieknyc]

Once again, I missed the drama!

Although I am still puzzled why Fran is so passionate to defend Hamas murderers. Maybe she doesn't realize that if she herself came from Gaza, as a gay person, the only way she could avoid being executed by Hamas would be to surrender heself to the Israeli army and seek asylum in Israel.

[darkeyes]

Once again, I missed the drama!

Although I am still puzzled why Fran is so passionate to defend Hamas murderers. Maybe she doesn't realize that if she herself came from Gaza, as a gay person, the only way she could avoid being executed by Hamas would be to surrender heself to the Israeli army and seek asylum in Israel.
As a lawyer Jamie, I assume that you read that which is placed vefore you to ensure that justice is done. Try reading again what I have written. You will find not one word of defence for Hamas as an organisation.. what you will find throughout anything I have ever written an abhorrence of any kind of violence. I am a pacifist, and violence and warfare, terrorism and any other form of force are concepts which are repugnant to me. What I do defend is the right of all people, in this case the Palestinian people of Gaza to live in peace, without fear and to prosper without interference from outside. I have outlined why I believe Israel is primarily at fault and I have no intention of going over old ground once again. I believe Hamas and other groups which preach armed struggle..terrorism if you prefer are equally as appalling as a state military and do not and will not defend them. I do however understand why a people, so long dispossessed and oppressed will, after decades of deprivation and oppression, turn in desperation to anyone and anything which points to a way forward, and which claims to support their aspirations. I do not condone their doing so but I understand it, just as I understand the people of Israel asking their government to act in their defence. What I have always said is that their can be no solution until both sides talk and understand that each has a legitimate wish for peace and progress accordingly.

My sympathy does not go out to Hamas, but to the ordinary people of Gaza, as it does to the ordinary people of any nation, including Israel, which is threatened and routinely attacked by a neighbour..as it does to any people who suffer violence and oppression, dispossession and deprivation of any kind. A good lawyer Jamie would have read that in any brief and not made a statement or inferred something that is patently untrue. Very bad lawyers do that Jamie, at least my definition of a bad lawyer.

With regard to Hamas and their attitude to gay people I don't know if they would round me up and shoot me or not. I do accept that I would be a completely different person from the one I am today and my culture would have without doubt made me more circumspect and approach things differently in terms of my sexuality, Much as up until the 1960s in the west gay people were much more careful in advertising their sexuality for they do were often in fear of their lives. As indeed in both our countries, many still are. I would like to think that I would try and make my society more accepting of it and do what I can to play my part in freeing gay and bisexual people from any constraints within that society, but it is purely hypothetical and not something I can answer with absolute certainty. Just as Jamie, had you been a Palestinian lawyer in Gaza, you could not say with any certainty how you would react to and view the Israeli incursion and your attitudes to what we know as terrorism. Whether we like it or not we are substantially creatures of our culture and our environment and putting ourselves into the shoes of a person from a completely different culture is no easy task.

[darkeyes]

Frances.....is it a KISS you wanted..........

KISS


Belle
mmmm belle...nice... tee hee:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Tart, you just can't stand arguin when you ain't the one doing it LOL

Ahhhh Allbi...ya knos me well... :tong:

[pottzie]

Wish someone could just put a lock on this war!
With that said, there was some discussion on NPR about letting wars happen as a means to resolving the causes, as opposed to stopping and then restarting a war over thousands of years.
I know no one is going to go "Someone said this on a website, why don't we just..." but my thought is that, instead of marshaling the commandments of God, Allah, or Spaghetti Monster, perhaps it's time to wake up and smell the java and realize it's just us schmucks stuck here in the year of our Lord 2008, and we should just figure out how to.....
What? Did I say something? What's that look on your face?

[darkeyes]

Wish someone could just put a lock on this war!
With that said, there was some discussion on NPR about letting wars happen as a means to resolving the causes, as opposed to stopping and then restarting a war over thousands of years.
I know no one is going to go "Someone said this on a website, why don't we just..." but my thought is that, instead of marshaling the commandments of God, Allah, or Spaghetti Monster, perhaps it's time to wake up and smell the java and realize it's just us schmucks stuck here in the year of our Lord 2008, and we should just figure out how to.....
What? Did I say something? What's that look on your face?

U been takin summat ya shudn??? Its 2009...muah...:tong:

[jamieknyc]

As a lawyer Jamie, I assume that you read that which is placed vefore you to ensure that justice is done. Try reading again what I have written. You will find not one word of defence for Hamas as an organisation.. what you will find throughout anything I have ever written an abhorrence of any kind of violence. I am a pacifist, and violence and warfare, terrorism and any other form of force are concepts which are repugnant to me. What I do defend is the right of all people, in this case the Palestinian people of Gaza to live in peace, without fear and to prosper without interference from outside. I have outlined why I believe Israel is primarily at fault and I have no intention of going over old ground once again. I believe Hamas and other groups which preach armed struggle..terrorism if you prefer are equally as appalling as a state military and do not and will not defend them. I do however understand why a people, so long dispossessed and oppressed will, after decades of deprivation and oppression, turn in desperation to anyone and anything which points to a way forward, and which claims to support their aspirations. I do not condone their doing so but I understand it, just as I understand the people of Israel asking their government to act in their defence. What I have always said is that their can be no solution until both sides talk and understand that each has a legitimate wish for peace and progress accordingly.

My sympathy does not go out to Hamas, but to the ordinary people of Gaza, as it does to the ordinary people of any nation, including Israel, which is threatened and routinely attacked by a neighbour..as it does to any people who suffer violence and oppression, dispossession and deprivation of any kind. A good lawyer Jamie would have read that in any brief and not made a statement or inferred something that is patently untrue. Very bad lawyers do that Jamie, at least my definition of a bad lawyer.

With regard to Hamas and their attitude to gay people I don't know if they would round me up and shoot me or not. I do accept that I would be a completely different person from the one I am today and my culture would have without doubt made me more circumspect and approach things differently in terms of my sexuality, Much as up until the 1960s in the west gay people were much more careful in advertising their sexuality for they do were often in fear of their lives. As indeed in both our countries, many still are. I would like to think that I would try and make my society more accepting of it and do what I can to play my part in freeing gay and bisexual people from any constraints within that society, but it is purely hypothetical and not something I can answer with absolute certainty. Just as Jamie, had you been a Palestinian lawyer in Gaza, you could not say with any certainty how you would react to and view the Israeli incursion and your attitudes to what we know as terrorism. Whether we like it or not we are substantially creatures of our culture and our environment and putting ourselves into the shoes of a person from a completely different culture is no easy task.

Unless you have been living in a cave for the past three years, you know perfectly well that the 'ordinary people' of Gaza put Hamas into power for thei war-on-Isreal program, made heros out of Hamas operatives who fired 6,000 rockets and shells at Israeli civilians, and idolized suicide bombers. Stop pretneding that some group of Hamas thugs hijacked the Gza Strip at gunpoint from its poor innocent residents, because it ain't so.

Instead of mouthing leftist propaganda, why don't you donate money to the State of Israel to help support the hundreds of gay and bisexual Palestinian asylum seekers that the Israeli taxpayers have to feed?

[texasman6172003]

From what ive read and seen,it look's like some things got misconstrued. I hate to see things like this get all turned around and misunderstood. Like Drew said,CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG,:bigrin:...Me luff's ya Fran,:tong:...

[darkeyes]

Unless you have been living in a cave for the past three years, you know perfectly well that the 'ordinary people' of Gaza put Hamas into power for thei war-on-Isreal program, made heros out of Hamas operatives who fired 6,000 rockets and shells at Israeli civilians, and idolized suicide bombers. Stop pretneding that some group of Hamas thugs hijacked the Gza Strip at gunpoint from its poor innocent residents, because it ain't so.

Instead of mouthing leftist propaganda, why don't you donate money to the State of Israel to help support the hundreds of gay and bisexual Palestinian asylum seekers that the Israeli taxpayers have to feed?

God Jamie..willya do me a fave an think foryasel insteada wotya read in ya newspapers ..do sum diggin..read...do a lawyers job an research.... or that not wot lawyers do in the US? ..an do me a fave.. read wot me sez..an ansa that..not wotya won peeps to think me sed... ask yasel wy Hamas wer elected?? do sum digggin..jus don take wot yas told as gospel...cos its much more complicated than u seem 2 think...

Onya 2cd point...which is me sposed 2 prioritise?? a few hundred gays an bisexuals.. or well ova a million human beins??.. am not a lawyer Jamie..don hav inexhaustible resources...

[darkeyes]

From what ive read and seen,it look's like some things got misconstrued. I hate to see things like this get all turned around and misunderstood. Like Drew said,CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG,:bigrin:...Me luff's ya Fran,:tong:...

Me gets along wiv mos peeps ratbag... u kno that...muah..:bigrin:

[MaybeSayMaybe]

- Artist: Rick Nelson
- peak Billboard position # 6 in 1972
- inspired by Rick's experience at a Madison Square Garden concert
- Words and Music by Rick Nelson


I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

CHORUS
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

People came from miles around, everyone was there
Yoko brought her walrus, there was magic in the air
'n' over in the corner, much to my surprise
Mr. Hughes hid in Dylan's shoes wearing his disguise

CHORUS

lott-in-dah-dah-dah, lot-in-dah-dah-dah

Played them all the old songs, thought that's why they came
No one heard the music, we didn't look the same
I said hello to "Mary Lou", she belongs to me
When I sang a song about a honky-tonk, it was time to leave

CHORUS

lot-dah-dah-dah (lot-dah-dah-dah)
lot-in-dah-dah-dah

Someone opened up a closet door and out stepped Johnny B. Goode
Playing guitar like a-ringin' a bell and lookin' like he should
If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck
But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck

CHORUS

lot-dah-dah-dah (lot-dah-dah-dah)
lot-in-dah-dah-dah

'n' it's all right now, learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself

[vittoria]

Shut Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJaEVIDIv_M):

Bloodhound Gang

(these are the lyrics... i didnt write them--but you get the point)



I'm Jimmy Pop here in a jiffy heat me up and add oil
I'm like a zit a wart a corn a cyst a festering boil
I get under your skin and I sebaceously form
I'm as deep as the plot to an amateur gay porn
Keep ya hungry for more like Bangladesh
Then I'll borg di borg do borg ya like the Swedish Chef
Cause I'm one of a kind and kind of hard to find
Kind of like an Injun without his fire water wine
I'm like Schneider one day at a time
I'm feeling like Bob Vila nailing up your behind
To my wall like Daniel-son does
I'm waxing on I'm waxing off I'm waxing just because
I get wired like a Western Union and I got to be me
And I got more balls than the daily lottery
Like hemorrhoidal itch yo you can't ignore me
Cause I'm more tongue and cheek than a lesbo orgy
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me

Second verse is different from the first

I'm Jimmy Pop I am
Jimmity Jimmity Pop I am I am
See my name's not Hoover and I don't give a damn
And I got a different angle like a parallelogram
And you'll be all ears like a field of corn
I'll make you Dizzy like Gillespie as I toot my own horn
Like a No. 2 pencil I always got a point
You'll want to share it with friends like a poorly rolled joint
I'm Jimmy Pop y'all I'm Jimmy Pop y'all I'm an Alka Seltzer that's right you're a seagull
As I continue to expand your head is gonna burst
Leave a bad taste in your mouth like moldy Liverwurst
Like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre I'll get in your face
But then I'll brush you off like Aqua-Fresh toothpaste
Cause I'm letting off steam like a Chinese Laundromat
But I'm not a roll of Charmin so don't give me no crap
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me

I hate a lot of whites and I hate a lot of blacks
I hate poopin' in public places but we all hate that
I hate lesbian feminists because they're all so damn ugly
I hate Spin Magazine cause they never ever plug me
I hate Regis and I hate Kathie Lee
I hate every single movie by that midget Spike Lee
I hate people that think I care what they think
I hate people that think their ass don't stink
I hate Jon Bon Jovi but I hate his music more
I hate killing people because I hate to keep score
I hate you but you hate yourself too
I hate to be honest but I'd hate to be you
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me
And I don't give a damn if you don't like me
Cause' I don't like you cause you're not like me.

[jclogan]

Don't agree with your views on the subject Fran...but would fight to preserve your right to express them.:2cents:

[mrplayfuluk]

having missed the original debate and then this one, I decided to take a long look at the whole thing, reading both in detail and taking time to do it. As far as I can see there are a lot of things that have contributed to make the whole debate get nasty. For me Fran has never defended Hamas, only the Palestinian people. So many reactionary people here have put the Palstinian people and Hamas in the same box as if by 'letting' Hamas fire a rocket from their 'back yard' is casual complicity. The idea that they should stop this, or... rise up against Hamas is a ludicrous idea; the people don't have the education, the infrastructure or indeed the communality to do this. Maybe in future but not now. Propaganda and history have distorted national views on both sides in the war zone. In the West we tend to judge the world by our own standards and culture, so while I disagree with a lot of the more extreme US commentary in this debate, I have to accept that we are all entitled to our opinion as long as it doesn't get personal, which it did. Shifting it away from the original debate, was probably a good idea in retrospect and I perceive Drew as a benevolent moderator who doesn't want to censor if possible. So I am pleased Fran got to air her views once again.

Anyhow I don't intend to set off another side debate but if there are more than defenseless 300 children dead and as many mothers too, please explain to me how that is crushing Hamas. This in my mind was what Fran was always alluding to. I have some American Jewish friends who have emotionally taken up arms against the pan Arab population, generalizing the various events in the Middle East and while I don't agree with everything they believe, I understand the root of their depth of feeling and how rationale gets jarred. To be honest my anger is about Zionism and Islamism which are extreme-isms....

As a Londoner I have been close to IRA bombs over the years and seen the damage for myself, so I understand that reality. Not only that but I have friends who could have been caught up in the tube train 7/7 attacks as well. So...

The big question on the outcome of this incursion is not just the damage to Gaza, the human cost, the rebuilding, its how many new Hamas recruits it will bring and the future growth of Al Qaeda as the Islamic youth in the world react. Bin Laden is already capitalizing on it, so it will no doubt bring more terrorist attacks worldwide, which is quite scary.

Its not about who started it any more its about who can finish it, and in a diplomatic way.....................rather than the killing of innocents on both sides.

[PolyLoveTriad]

Darkeyes, I do so LOVE your passion! Right wrong or indifferent, in the end I admire you for your passion :)

[rissababynta]

Darkeyes, I do so LOVE your passion! Right wrong or indifferent, in the end I admire you for your passion :)

I completely agree!

[darkeyes]

The Israeli incursion is over. Forgive me for any friction I may have caused, but such were, are my feelings that, as with any such conflict, I am beside myself with frustration, anger, despair and sheer outrage. Tragedy is always heartrending.. unnecessary and avoidable tragedy brings to the surface such emotions that I can and do lose control. Gaza was and is such a tragedy and I have fought hard to contain my emotional state and control my rage. I wish to end this thread by referring you to two articles written and published on Aljazeera. I know..not every westerners favourite news channel.. but I do believe them to be worth the effort. They do not reflect my views in their entirety, but closely enough for me to believe them important and worthwhile.. they are not written by a journalist, but by Mark LeVine, an American Professor of Middle East Studies at UCI.. they pull no punches and I believe them to be enlightening for any who has anything remotely close to an open mind.. the first article was written last March, the second published only today.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/03/2008525172731357923.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009119102548942367.html

[jamieknyc]

The Israeli incursion is over. Forgive me for any friction I may have caused, but such were, are my feelings that, as with any such conflict, I am beside myself with frustration, anger, despair and sheer outrage. Tragedy is always heartrending.. unnecessary and avoidable tragedy brings to the surface such emotions that I can and do lose control. Gaza was and is such a tragedy and I have fought hard to contain my emotional state and control my rage. I wish to end this thread by referring you to two articles written and published on Aljazeera. I know..not every westerners favourite news channel.. but I do believe them to be worth the effort. They do not reflect my views in their entirety, but closely enough for me to believe them important and worthwhile.. they are not written by a journalist, but by Mark LeVine, an American Professor of Middle East Studies at UCI.. they pull no punches and I believe them to be enlightening for any who has anything remotely close to an open mind.. the first article was written last March, the second published only today.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/03/2008525172731357923.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009119102548942367.html
You do realize- I hope- that the Israeli army pulled out now because the deal they cut with Obama was that he told them, "do what you have to do, but finish it up before I take office so I don't come in with a foreign policy crisis on my hands."

[darkeyes]

You do realize- I hope- that the Israeli army pulled out now because the deal they cut with Obama was that he told them, "do what you have to do, but finish it up before I take office so I don't come in with a foreign policy crisis on my hands."

He has several foriegn policy crises on his hands Jamie..this one hasn't gone away..the measure of the man will be how he reacts to it and how imaginative and even handed is his approach.. and how much bottle he has..

[Hephaestion]

He has several foriegn policy crises on his hands Jamie..this one hasn't gone away..the measure of the man will be how he reacts to it and how imaginative and even handed is his approach.. and how much bottle he has..

Maybe Obama wishes to distance his administration from any episode in which a friendly country would shell a clearly identified UN school for children with white phosphorous shells.

.

[darkeyes]

Maybe Obama wishes to distance his administration from any episode in which a friendly country would shell a clearly identified UN school for children with white phosphorous shells.

.

Me shocked Heph..ya mean ya don believe 'em wen they say they didn' use white phospohorus?? They wud tell fibbies?? God..no.. wot is the world cummin 2...:eek:

[jamieknyc]

Maybe Obama wishes to distance his administration from any episode in which a friendly country would shell a clearly identified UN school for children with white phosphorous shells.

.

The first rule of Israeli policy is that the American president is the most important power broker in the region, and the Israelis do not take any action without clearing it with the American president (in this case, president-elect) first.

[darkeyes]

The first rule of Israeli policy is that the American president is the most important power broker in the region, and the Israelis do not take any action without clearing it with the American president (in this case, president-elect) first.wow..me gettin more shocked by the day bout alla this deviousness that goes on in the world...:eek:

[jamieknyc]

Maybe Obama wishes to distance his administration from any episode in which a friendly country would shell a clearly identified UN school for children with white phosphorous shells.

.

Since the US is the principal financial backer of the UN, perhaps Obama should be asking why the UN condoned the use of its facilities in Gaza ny Hamas as rocket-launcher and artillery sites.

I assume that the UN employees on the ground let Hamas do so because they were forced into it at gunpoint (a generous assumtpion, since UN employees have been caught many times assisting terrorists in both Gaza and Lebanon), but the Secretary General seems to be Hamas' tame little pet.

[darkeyes]

Since the US is the principal financial backer of the UN, perhaps Obama should be asking why the UN condoned the use of its facilities in Gaza ny Hamas as rocket-launcher and artillery sites.

I assume that the UN employees on the ground let Hamas do so because they were forced into it at gunpoint (a generous assumtpion, since UN employees have been caught many times assisting terrorists in both Gaza and Lebanon), but the Secretary General seems to be Hamas' tame little pet.

..an u kno ne a that that for certain then Jamie do ya??? ...or do ya jus take ya country's lil stooge's word for it all an nev question... jus cos the UN disagrees wivya an says things ya don like don mean it is rong.. but course..truth is neva a big thing wiv lawyers is it???

[mrplayfuluk]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i2Z8yN94Ax2LXITrHf_4rMEJVZ9g

well I clearly saw the footage on BBC News 24 show white phosphorus being used and kids trying to stamp it out; so please tell me how you define a military area from a civilian area in the dense urban parts of Gaza. Its only a matter of time before its comes out as there is plenty of 'prima facie' evidence, already.

[Hephaestion]

There was of course the radio interview this morning 23 Jan 2009 in which an Israeli government representative, while squirming with the abundant evidence, eventually admitted it was white phosphorous being used.

.

[Hephaestion]

Listening late night radio last night there was an american voice (who?) calling for the UN to be re-organised because of (paraphrasing) 'failings established for some years now'.

Maybe I had fallen asleep and was dreaming

"Father Crilly - you kicked me up the arse!"
"Would I have really done that Bishop Brennan, it must have been a dream!"
"Ah..ah...? don't know? maybe your right?"
And then the 12ft by 12ft picture comes into view

[mrplayfuluk]

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-launches.html

I knew I wasn't imagining things when i saw it on the news....

[darkeyes]

Sad nasty ole world Heph, MrP...:(