Eyeless in Gaza..and worse...

[darkeyes]

On Saturday we went on a demo about the war currently going on in Gaza.. I have sat ever since it happened just waiting for someone to start a thread, not because I am not able to myself but because I am increasingly concerned that really we dont give a sod about what is going on there and we are quite happy to allow Israel to bomb the hell out of a million and a half Palestinians in what is a cynical excercise which has little to do with peace and more to do with the upcoming Israeli election.. I can wait no longer to express my outrage at this horror.

The US has thwarted, as expected every move by the international community to stop this incursion. I do not excuse Hamas, or any other Palestinian organisation for their share of responsibility in this conflict, but the brunt of the responsibility must lie with Israel and a leadership which relies on the same old solutions to "resolve" a situation in Gaza which it sees as a problem and the US must accept its share for its willy nilly Israel can do nor wrong colour blindness.. it could if it so wished stop Israel in its tracks. It could if it so wished get Israel to treat the Palestinian tragedy seriously and with wit and wisdom rather than its overtly warlike and brutal strategies of the past and present.

Denying the Gazans any kind of aid is a war crime. They are short of medicines and other essential supplies for the keeping of body and soul together and Israel has blocked the place and denies any such aid to be delivered to the civilian population. Foreign journalists are banned so it is difficult see any other reason for this other than the worst atrocities are being carried out in the name of "peace". Almost a thousand people have died, and it is believed that the Israeli army is using white phosphorus armaments in its mad dash to crush Hamas an the Palestinians of Gaza. I have cried tears of outrage and despair as I watch my television screen and read about this insane war. I hate all war and believe there is never any need for any war, but this you know. What is occuring here is the creation of another generation of Palestinians with a hatred and bitterness for Israel, and its sponsor and guarantor, the United States. I sometimes wonder if this is not the real reason for such regular incursions into various Arab lands by this so called democratic state.

I will continue to shed my tears and feel outrage and hope against hope that Barak Obama takes this situation by the scruff of the neck and does what many hope of him.. to create the conditions where Israel and the Palestinians can begin to settle their differences by negotiation rather than by such wanton and needless destruction and death. He has been quiet to be sure, and I am among the cynics that the hope of mankind is indeed that..I have no doubt he is formulating US policy for his own administration. My only hope is that it is not a continuance of that which has gone on before under Bush and continues to this day. I hope it is more even handed and progressive than this never ending carousel of war, war, war which seems to be Israel's answer to any problem with which it disagrees in the middle east and which Bush and his government have supported wholeheartedly...

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7821512.stm

[12voltman59]

I like it when I can fully understand you Franny without the "Frannyspeak" :bigrin:

This is a serious issue I know, so I am glad you addressed it in "the Queen's English!"

The thing is that here in the US----this is one of those "third rail" type issues politically if one is at all critical of what the state of Israel does-----that goes for politicians of either the Republican or Democratic parties (it is the DEMOCRATIC PARTY!!! Not the DEMOCRAT party!!!!!!!).

If one is critical of Israel at all----you get labled as being "anti-semitic" at worst and "anti-zionist" at best it seems even when that criticism is legitimate criticism of the policies and actions of the government of Israel--not of the state itself or of the Israeli people.

There are a number of Israelis who are not happy with the policies their government undertakes in this regard and there are of course Jews here in the US who are not happy with those policies as well even though they fully support the state of Israel and its right to exist.

The fact is with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict---while there seems to be this collective fantasy among the extremes on both sides that the other will either somehow just go away or be crushed out of existence---the fact is--that is not going to happen and the people and governments of both Israel and whatver faction "represents" the Palestinian people---they need to come to some sort of mutual accommodation----it is in the best long term interests of both the Israeli and Palestinian people.

They have to find a path to make "the two-state" solution work that is viable for both Israel and Palestine.

My ancestry is from Ireland and "we" have a similar sort of history on the island of Ireland with the south being "Catholic" and the Northern Republic being allied with the UK and even more pointedly--the dispute between Catholocism and English Protestantism----I have distant relatives--some of whom I think were doing things for the paramilitary side of the conflict there-- like being in the IRA--others worked the open and right path---they were members of Sein Fein and worked on the political side to get over "the troubles."

Instead of the many years of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, violence that spread to other places--namely many IRA bombings in London and Unionist bombings in the Republic--Sein Fein and the Ulsters were able to come to an accommodation and now there is (largely) peace instead of open warfare and terrorism being waged by both sides.

The peace allowed Norhern Ireland to share in some degree, the great economic strides made by The Republic of Ireland until the recent worldwide economic meltdown put the brakes on that!

If only Israel and Palestine could come to an agreement and seek peace instead of conflict---hopefully the economic situation of so many of the Palestinian people will begin to turn around.

For many--they have absoultely no hope of anything at all good in life---you have people in Palestine who have lived in "refugee camps" since 1948 when the state of Israel came into being!!

I cannot imagine what living in refugee status for six decades can do to a people--but we do get some idea---they launch Catoosa rockets on Israeli settlements that seem prosperous, built on land that was once that of their famillies.

I do hope that this incoming administration at some point does make it a do or die mission to work with both the Israelis and Palestinians to get to some sort of workable agreement that will be best for both sides--but realistically--as much as Barack Obama might want to tackle that hornets nest--current realities make that something way down on his priority list I am sorry to say, so the situation will continue on for the foreseeable future as it has for decades and American policy will continue to stand with Israel no matter what they do, save perhaps some diplomatically drafted "official US statements" that "we lament the shedding of blood and that both sides should seek an immediate cease fire bringing an end to all hostilities as soon as possible" and all of that.

[curious44]

Well, darkeyes, you go ahead and shed your tears for the Palestinian Terrorists but they have been sending rockets in to Israel from Gaza for the last three years, over 6,000 of them. What? Aljazeera didn't tell you that? I'm shocked, they've always been so fair. I guess they also didn't tell you that the new hero, Obama, also said recently. "I don't blame Israel. If some country was sending rockets toward an area where my two daughters were sleeping, I'd be forced to take some action too." You'll see that Obama campaigned on many things. He'll get some of them but the people of this country will never let him weaken our ties to our strongest ally in the mid east, Israel.
Hamas, along with supplies and backing from the Iranian nut job and Holocaust denier, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have said many times they do not recognize Israel as a sovereign nation and will destroy it. Israel is now committed to destroy it's sworn enemy, Hamas, and it's about time. How many more thousand rockets should Hamas be allowed to send in to Israel? While they're at it they (with our help) should destroy Iran's nuclear capability. It will be a helluva lot easier to deal with Iran before they have a nuclear bomb. How much more stable will the mid east be with no Israel and an Iranian state with nuclear weapons?
One of the biggest mistakes Israel made was to give back Gaza and the Golan Heights, land they captured in the '67 Seven Day War. They wouldn't have this problem today if they hung on to it.
So you people who get your "facts" from places like Aljazeera, keep shedding your tears for the Palestinian Terrorists. I'll keep cheering for the Israelis.

[darkeyes]

I shed tears for all who lose their lives in war.. not simply Palestinians.. Israelis also and any other people. Curious hun, you have a peculiarly American view which I can respect but do not share...maybe you should think again about AlJazeera.. it is treated by the Arab governments with much the same disdain you do..my sources are much more than that particular channel..the trouble is..so many of us listen to but one side of the argument.. I prefer to try an find out all sides and make up my mind from there..

[Falke]

Well said curious, they knew it was a matter of time before Isreal cleaned house in Gaza. What did they expect... "Oh, we are just going to sneak up on this bull and smack him in the balls! Nothing will happen!"

They brought it on themselves and what is sad is that their own people must suffer for it. I mean, c'mon...firing a mortyr with kids crouded around. Once again, what did they expect to happen? Of course, it's not unintentional. They know that the news outlets will get ahold of it, cause a public outcry about civilian casualties that will get a UN resolution of some nature passed for a ceasefire. Hamas keeps from getting it's ass totally handed to it by the Isrealis and then continues with its terrorist-style campaign. Rince, wash, and repeat.

Lastly, when Hamas was ELECTED to the majority of the Palestinian parlement, well that killed their legitimacy. I was all for a Palestinian state up until then.

[darkeyes]

I received a message from a member of the site which said simply "Another anti american. You need to open your eyes wider dear".

Let me state quite categorically I am not, and never have been anti american. Any who know me in the slightest know that to be a nonsense. I am however anti american government policy vis a vis Israel, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan and many other issues which touch on the wider world. Equally I am against my own governments policies regarding Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan as I am with its policies on staying out of the single European currency and not signing up 2 the Shengen agreement, on its immigration policy and its appaling treatment of those who enter the country illegally. This does not make me anti British. I abhorr many things about French government policies including its own immigration policies. Yet it does not make me anti French for I love France and the French and it is my preferred holiday destination. There are many things I loathe about many countries political philosophies and policies. I am anti none of these countries.. I am anti the policy and those who implement those policies. I am a person of strong opinions as are many on this site. But my opinions do not make me anti anything except those policies and their instigators which I may believe are wrong.

That I am in many ways most critical about US policy is because most of the issues raised in a wider context on site happen to American policies. Its just the way the site is... with a preponderance of American people on site many of whom also criticise their own Governments policies. So please..no more accusations about that which you know little, bi in PA..

[Hephaestion]

Who is right, more right or justified depends on what moment in history one starts from, what gravity one places upon any action or series of actions, and which items of propaganda one relies upon.

The victims on both sides of any armed conflict are to be pitied. Protest at their suffering needs to be made and any opportunity to stop it needs to be taken.

[12voltman59]

I am going to say one more thing on this subject--I thought about it after I was done with the first one.

Looking at the Palestinians and their situation---they made one very crucial error in my view--they put all their faith and trust in one man for thirty years or so who in retrospect---did not deserve that faith and trust--Yasser Arafat!!!

He was a good PR guy but he was basically a thug and a thief--and he did more harm to the Palestinian cause than anyone--look at after his death---what happend to the PLO and PLA??? They faded away I guess.

Arafat did not really care about the plight of his fellow Palestinians---his organization ripped off the Palestinian people to the tune of at least hundreds of millions of dollars and did nothing ultimately to secure a just and lasting peace that would have brought a resultant prosperity for his people that would make it unattractive for young men to take part in terroristic actions---they would have a future, be able to afford to get married--have families and be productive people--now they are hopeless, angry and desperate young men who are easily drawn to a philosophy of trying to destroy those who they hold responsible for their current fate--the people of Israel.

They should all go and desecrate the grave of Yassar Arafat!! He was more responsible for their plight than is the average Israeli.

[boca.openminded]

darkeyes;119623]

The US has thwarted, as expected every move by the international community to stop this incursion. I do not excuse Hamas, or any other Palestinian organisation for their share of responsibility in this conflict, but the brunt of the responsibility must lie with Israel and a leadership which relies on the same old solutions to "resolve" a situation in Gaza which it sees as a problem and the US must accept its share for its willy nilly Israel can do nor wrong colour blindness.. it could if it so wished stop Israel in its tracks. It could if it so wished get Israel to treat the Palestinian tragedy seriously and with wit and wisdom rather than its overtly warlike and brutal strategies of the past and present.

If you feel that the brunt of the responsibility must lie with Israel then you have no clue what you are talking about. I hope no harm comes to you nor your family but if your family was attacked over 30 times are you telling me you would not fight back? Of course you would. Actually, you would start fighting back immediately and not wait for your family to be beaten 30 times first.

before I read everyone elses opinions I will instead post my own then go back and read them..

This posting is a load of crap...Nobody likes wars but we all have the right to defend our homes & family...

You are missing the point. Everyone is talking about the Palestinians and they are the innocent people here but they are not!

1) they elected the Hamas into their govt during the past election
2) they allow the Hamas to plant rockets & soldiers in their own homes.
3) In a show of peace Israel gave the Palestinians the Gaza strip to show that they want peace as much or more then everyone else. We knew that once they did this the Hamas would now be inches closer to the Israeli border. What happened?
4) The Hamas now shoots rockets deeper into Israel then ever before. They shot over 30 rockets into Israel before Israel did a damn thing. They showed remorse and went through ALL of the government channels to stop this but when the Hamas is the government, nothing stopped. Instead Israel had to defend their own lives & property because nobody else is going to.
5) Even today Israel says when the Hamas stops they will stop but each day the Hamas continues to shoot rockets into Israel and Israel fights back.

What this world is so fuckin stupid is you CAN"T talk logics with the Hamas. The Palestinians are so afraid of them that they elected the Hamas into their government. Now you want Israel to stop this? Why should they? They are only defended themselves. They will stop when the Hamas stops firing rockets. We are ALL sorry that innocent Palestinians are dieing but they need to stop the Hamas. Israel will help the Palestinians fight Hamas but they do not want to. The Hamas and Hezbalah and other terrorist organizations want Israel to be obliterated.

What do have to say about that?

I hate war but I am VERY much in favor of what is going on. They are at war with the Hamas not Palestinians. Palestinians are just to fk'n stupid & scared so they allow the Hamas to shoot rockets from they own yard. In return Israel sees where the rocket is coming from and bombs that home.

Palestinians: want this war to end then stick up for yourselves and protect yourselves from Hamas! They are the bad ones not Israelis and not the Palestinians!

[boca.openminded]

Well, darkeyes, you go ahead and shed your tears for the Palestinian Terrorists but they have been sending rockets in to Israel from Gaza for the last three years, over 6,000 of them. What? Aljazeera didn't tell you that? I'm shocked, they've always been so fair. I guess they also didn't tell you that the new hero, Obama, also said recently. "I don't blame Israel. If some country was sending rockets toward an area where my two daughters were sleeping, I'd be forced to take some action too." You'll see that Obama campaigned on many things. He'll get some of them but the people of this country will never let him weaken our ties to our strongest ally in the mid east, Israel.
Hamas, along with supplies and backing from the Iranian nut job and Holocaust denier, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have said many times they do not recognize Israel as a sovereign nation and will destroy it. Israel is now committed to destroy it's sworn enemy, Hamas, and it's about time. How many more thousand rockets should Hamas be allowed to send in to Israel? While they're at it they (with our help) should destroy Iran's nuclear capability. It will be a helluva lot easier to deal with Iran before they have a nuclear bomb. How much more stable will the mid east be with no Israel and an Iranian state with nuclear weapons?
One of the biggest mistakes Israel made was to give back Gaza and the Golan Heights, land they captured in the '67 Seven Day War. They wouldn't have this problem today if they hung on to it.
So you people who get your "facts" from places like Aljazeera, keep shedding your tears for the Palestinian Terrorists. I'll keep cheering for the Israelis.


In my posting, I stated that I did not read this comments from other members but only the initial one that started this thread.

Maybe I should have read the comments because this post by CURIOUS44 is right on and it would have saved me from typing my own opinion.

CURIOUS44 - you are so right on I applaud you. I can't even pick & choose parts of your post because EVERYTHING you posted is so true...

I have never talked to you (pm, chat, or email) so I am not agreeing with you out of favoritism but instead out of knowledge of facts.

It pisses me off how naive some people are. Know your facts before you shed a tear. You are shedding a tear for the wrong people!

[rainbowmonk]

As in all wars there are never any clear winners.... we do however see a lot of lose. This war has been going on for a long time and it will keep on going for a long time after there is a cease fire. There is more at stake than just land. The religious significance of this land stretches to people around the world. Its quite sad to see any of this happen anywhere when most of us have the luxury of peace. I am thankful that the country that I live in for the most part is a peaceful nation. I have been trying to keep up on this topic but there are many emotions that are in this war. Many people of both nations have been born in war, lived in war and endured war. It is sad to see that this is what they think is normal. The only semi good thing that might come from this is that it has brought everything to light globally. This could be the catalyst that might actually bring some sort of peace to that area. The problem is that this wont make amends for the pain that has been caused.
History has shown that people remember things for a long, long time. May we find the compassion in our hearts all over world to put down the weapons and try and make a amends for the pain. History also shows us that the victor usually get to make the rules and the loses usually get swept under the rug. This has changed with the advent of global media. Now we have all of the pain in real time.
My tears go to the ones who have lost their homes, families, and lives in the name of so called peace because there for the grace of God go I.

I am not here to argue with anyone on this issue just here to grieve the lose.

yours sincerely
monk

[FalconAngel]

Our tears are for the children who are harmed in all of this, without regard to the side they are on.

The children in Palestine are not responsible for the actions of their parents, who allow Hamas to place the rockets there. It is the adults who are responsible for not removing the children from a target area.

Anyone remember (or remember reading about) what the British did with the children during the Blitz, in London? They shipped them out to the countryside, where the Germans were NOT bombing.

These people do not do what they need to protect their own children because some of them want martyrs and others have nowhere to go. If they have nowhere to go, then they need to say no to putting rockets in their back yard.

And if they can't say NO, then they need to blame their own government for putting families; children, at unnecessary risk.

Has anyone noticed that, in modern times, only Islamic cultures intentionally put families and children directly in the line of fire during armed conflict?

[Bi-Zarro]

The mainstream media (MSM) is not telling you the truth about the sequence of events that led to the current slaughter in Gaza.

It was not Hamas that broke the ceasefire that was in place for six months. In fact, it was an Israeli initiative -- on a convenient date when the world's attention was elsewhere: November 4-5, the date of the American elections.

On that date, there was an Israeli incursion into Gaza. They killed a group of Hamas men, justifying it by claiming that they were digging a tunnel that could have been used for attacks inside Israel. In addition, during the whole six-month truce, Israel did not lift its siege -- it continued with the blockade, in itself an act of war. So Hamas had very little motivation to continue what was a very one-sided ceasefire.

The Israeli authorities knew that Hamas would do the only thing it could do. That is, to (stupidly) fire off a few dozen indiscriminate rockets. Israel was thus preparing for this incursion some six months ago, from the very beginning of the ceasefire. It is not an ad hoc reaction to provocations -- it was very carefully organized.

Of course Hamas are reactionary idiots and I wish that better forces were in the leadership in the Occupied Territories. But contrary to what the American MSM says, they didn't start this.

[KNEADSMORE]

Regardless of the incursion on 4-5 Nov, Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel. They just blamed them on individuals instead of claiming responsibility. What started Cast Lead was Hamas' announcement that the cease fire, for lack aof a true phrase, was over and they increased the rocket firings from a dozen a day to many dozens. Google "Sderot" if you would like to read on Hamas' interpretation of "cease fire".

[Bi-Zarro]

Regardless of the incursion on 4-5 Nov, Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel. They just blamed them on individuals instead of claiming responsibility. What started Cast Lead was Hamas' announcement that the cease fire, for lack of a true phrase, was over and they increased the rocket firings from a dozen a day to many dozens. Google "Sderot" if you would like to read on Hamas' interpretation of "cease fire".

"Hamas indeed respected their side of the ceasefire, except on those occasions early on when Israel carried out major offensives in the West Bank. In the last two months, the ceasefire broke down with Israelis killing several Palestinians and resulting in the response of Hamas. In other words, Hamas has not carried out an unprovoked attack throughout the period of the cease-fire.

Israel, however, did not live up to any of its obligations of ending the siege and allowing vital humanitarian aid to resume in Gaza. Rather than the average of 450 trucks per day being allowed across the border, on the best days, only eighty have been allowed in - with the border remaining hermetically sealed 70% of the time. Throughout the supposed 'cease-fire' Gazans have been forced to live like animals, with a total of 262 dying due to the inaccessibility of proper medical care.

Now after hundreds dead and counting, it is Israel who refuses to re-enter talks over a cease-fire. They are not intent on securing peace as they claim; it is more and more clear that they are seeking regime change - whatever the cost."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mustafa-barghouthi/palestines-guernica-and-t_b_153958.html
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mustafa-barghouthi/palestines-guernica-and-t_b_153958.html)
Please note Barghouthi's biography. He has no reason to be nice to Hamas.

[Bi-Zarro]

There is in fact a peace movement in Israel. Its existence is an important thing and should be supported. Evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMs0nai4JQ

Israel may be a "watchdog" of U.S. imperial interests in the Middle East but I wouldn't call it a colony. It certainly wasn't founded as such. And as much as I'm for cutting off military aid to Israel, I'm sure it wouldn't affect Israel's ability to continue to exist. (The Arab "demographic threat" within Israel is a much bigger "problem.")

It's important to understand that the political leaderships in both Israel and Occupied Palestine have a symbiotic relationship. Hamas exists for no other reason than the ability to mobilize Palestinians around nationalistic demands combined with a hatred of Jews. Kadima, Likud, Labor, etc., on the basis of Hamas' (inept) terrorist attacks, exist within a context where normal politics can be suspended on the basis of the need to focus on security.

[boca.openminded]

It seems clear that the Israelis are committed to a violent extreme blood revenge against the Palestinians and their plea that they only want to feel safe is about ethnic cleansing. I think that Israel wont feel safe until every Palestinian is exterminated. Apologists for Israel say, "oh no, there is a peace movement in Israel" but where is it? I don't see its effects at all. And its all sooooo stupid because you kill one potential terrorist and 10 more are created as the Arab worlds hates Israel even more. and with good cause. First of all they move into territory that is not their (40 years of occupation with no rights given to the people in the invaded lands they occupy, c'mon). They control all the resources of Gaza so that it can never thrive or survive on its own. they did this incredible overkill and over reaction in Lebanon not so many years ago which Amerika conveniently forgets and our administration speaks up against any actions of Israel while the world is horrified. We block any sanctions or condemnation of Israel in the United Nations, so its clear that that international body is just meant to be a cover for US imperialism. Israel moves into a house that isn't theirs and then screams "terrorism" when the occupants of the house want the invaders out and then when the occupants take action (which regretably is violent because no one has really come in and established justice from the start, requiring Israel to remove its occupation 40 years ago). then not only are the occupants of the house annihilated but the whole neighborhood is blown up. And the blame falls squarely on Amerika who completely supports Israel. The truth about Israel is that it is a totally artificial state. It is completely supported by US tax dollars. Where do you think they get their weapons of mass destruction? Where do you think they get the resources to have the huge military that they have? They have no industry, they are NOT self sufficient - Israel is completely a US colony. Folks, we've been sold down the river with these claims of an independent Jewish State - it just ain't so. And the Muslim world, as well as the rest of the world is mad at us for creating a base for violence and oppression. The United Nations should move its headquarters and no member of the security council should be able to veto the resolutions passed by the majority and if Amerika ignores the world community, sanctions should be set up against us. Is the unconditional support of Israel really worth this?

WHAT the fk are you talking about...

Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinians in a show of peace and what did the Palestinians do? They elected the Hamas into their government and moved their rockets closer to the Israeli border.

You have NO clue what you are talking about. You live in a fairy land where there is only good and no evil. You are so naive its not even funny. You hate the Israelis because they are the ones that are doing the damage.

As long as the Hamas is in charge there will NEVER be peace...The Israelis are battling Hamas and trying to get rid of these terrorists...

[Falke]

The mainstream media (MSM) is not telling you the truth about the sequence of events that led to the current slaughter in Gaza.

It was not Hamas that broke the ceasefire that was in place for six months. In fact, it was an Israeli initiative -- on a convenient date when the world's attention was elsewhere: November 4-5, the date of the American elections.

On that date, there was an Israeli incursion into Gaza. They killed a group of Hamas men, justifying it by claiming that they were digging a tunnel that could have been used for attacks inside Israel. In addition, during the whole six-month truce, Israel did not lift its siege -- it continued with the blockade, in itself an act of war. So Hamas had very little motivation to continue what was a very one-sided ceasefire.

The Israeli authorities knew that Hamas would do the only thing it could do. That is, to (stupidly) fire off a few dozen indiscriminate rockets. Israel was thus preparing for this incursion some six months ago, from the very beginning of the ceasefire. It is not an ad hoc reaction to provocations -- it was very carefully organized.

Of course Hamas are reactionary idiots and I wish that better forces were in the leadership in the Occupied Territories. But contrary to what the American MSM says, they didn't start this.


Do you have a source for this?

[darkeyes]

I do not remember an Israeli incursion into Gaza occurring on or around 4/5 November, Biz and would like to know your sources also. I do know that on 5th November Israel closed and occupied all border posts on the strip and began its blockade of the Palestinians who were already suffering massive poverty and deprivation. (There was however a limited incursion around the 18th of November by the Israeli army.) Hamas declared that in protest against this action the truce would not be extended.. that was on December 14 last. The truce expired on the 19th of that month and the incursion against Gaza began on the 27th..

I do not like or approve of Hamas any more than I like or approve of any armed group which seeks to kill, maim or destroy.. terrorist, freedom fighter call them what you will.. nor do I like or approve of the military..Israeli or anyone elses.. but having said that.. I can understand a people, deprived, struggling for survival responding violently against an aggressor. I can also understand Israeli concern for its future.. However, it is a bit rich of a state, itself substantially born out of Zionist terrorism, to now complain when others it oppresses and causes considerable hardship and deprivation returns the compliment. I do not think for one minute Hamas are innocent, yet do believe them when they say most, not all of the rockets which have given Israel the excuse to invade Gaza were of disaffected Palestinian groups. The British and IRA/Sinn Fein had this problem to deal with in the North of Ireland as they strove to find some sort of peaceful settlement of the problems there in the not too distant past. Yet somehow they struggled and reached an admittedly uneasy peace which has lasted and hopefully will be built upon...

If two sides have differences, which Hamas and Israel assuredly do, and serious differences at that, trust can be built even with sometimes frequent setbacks such as was seen prior to the decision to end the truce. The British and Sinn Fein had many such setbacks in Ireland, yet they kept trying and building the peace. Suspicion remains, but less than not so long ago, and the peace has held. Slowly life has returned to normal in the north of Ireland and people are more prosperous now than they have ever been and live far more safely and peacefully. Of course Ireland is not the same as Palestine. There are differences. Yet even though problems still exist, and some violence remains, it is no more than in other parts of the UK. They may not be an exact comparison to the middle east, but there are enough similarities to see that there is hope if only all parties reach out and grab it...

This incursion into Gaza was not necessary.. those who deny Hamas their right to be the governing party of Gaza when they were elected by the people should not have the temerity to call themselves democrats. Democracy isnt only when our side wins.. we have to take losing as well.. however much we hate it.. Israel and Hamas could and should have continued their uneasy path to peace. Many setbacks were inevitable. Hamas has now accepted Israels right to exist and that is a massive move forward by them. Yet apparently it is not enough. Hamas must be destroyed and driven into oblivion, but it will not be...or if it is it will be replaced by somethig much more sinister and violent...that will be the but one cost of this stupid act..

I repeat what I said in my original post..what Israel by this action has done..is likely only to create yet another generation of Palestinians who distrust and hate Israel.. and for Israel, Palestine or the world that cannot be a good thing. Yet another price to be paid...

Responsibility lies with Israel primarily, but the US also for allowing it to happen and playing no part in the international efforts to stop it by backing Israel to the hilt..Hamas bears its responsibility also for responding as it did to the closing of borders, yet it at least can claim it acted out of desperation and frustration...so much more could have been won had both sides decided to negotiate rather than create what is an appalling mess and waste of lives.

A settlement is further away than ever..an that heartbreaking fact together with the inevitable loss of life is why I am unable to hold back either outrage or tears.. the third price may yet be for the world to pay...

[boca.openminded]

I am still laughing at all these posts...

What you people do NOT understand is Hamas are terrorists and they will be satisfied once Israel becomes a Palestinian country.

You are trying to talk intelligence & reason with these people. They do not care. They do not listen. They have one goal and one goal only!!!!

Why are you people so naive? You are looking at what is happening today (which again the Israelis are innocent ones) and not seeing the WHOLE picture.

People, OPEN your eyes. Whenever there is a truce all is does is let Hamas rebuild their army & arsenal and prepare them for another attack.

Don't forget Israel gave up the Gaza strip to show that they want peace and what happened? Hamas moved closer to Israel and now shot rockets deeper into Israel then ever before BUT when Israel fights back they are the bad guys...

Not everyone is all about peace / love / and happiness... There is a real world out there with very very evil people..So stop going to rally's and sing either "Give Peace a Chance" or "koombaya"...

Hamas does NOT want peace and THEY are the ones killing the Palestinians... Not the Israelis...

So ridiculous... Open your eyes..

[Bi-Zarro]

Do you have a source for this?

http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

http://ww4report.com/node/6572

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Falke]

http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

http://ww4report.com/node/6572

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

First link, first source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html

JERUSALEM — Israel carried out an airstrike on Gaza on Tuesday night after its troops clashed with Hamas gunmen along the border in the first such confrontation since a cease-fire took effect in June.

So, who started the skirmish?

Second source:

They speak more on the boarder crossing, but there is a blurb at the end in regards to the skirmish. On Nov. 4 -- just when the ceasefire was most effective -- the IDF carried out an attack against a house in Gaza in which six members of Hamas's military wing were killed, including two commanders, and several more were wounded. The IDF explanation for the operation was that it had received intelligence that a tunnel was being dug near the Israeli security fence for the purpose of abducing Israeli soldiers.

Hamas officials asserted, however, that the tunnel was being dug for defensive purposes, not to capture IDF personnel, according to Pastor, and one IDF official confirmed that fact to him.


Now, the question is...who do you beleave here. One side accerted defensive placement, the other said offensive....and the person who confirmed it was one of those... I heard it from another source, who heard it from someone else. Further, why would you do something that would be so provocative in the first place?

The last two I strongly question before reading when it comes to non-bias journalism. I mean, the first is a Blog and the second is a Op-ed.

Thanks for the sources though!

[darkeyes]

I am still laughing at all these posts...



People, OPEN your eyes. Whenever there is a truce all is does is let Hamas rebuild their army & arsenal and prepare them for another attack.



So ridiculous... Open your eyes..It is sad..most the world seems to see this conflict one way..and most people in the US quite differently.. I don't say Hamas are all good for they are not by a long chalk..or that Israel is all bad for it is not.. a dispossessed and oppressed people will do many desperate things to achieve dignity and liberty.. in the 18th century rebel colonists were branded traitors and terrorists by the British government of the day for fighting for their dignity and liberty.. the British did many evil and nasty things to stop them achieving it.. but equally, those self same freedom fighters who fought and died for liberty in North America were no innocents when it came to being less than nice before, during and after the US won its independence.. learn from your own history and open your own eyes..

[darkeyes]

Otha nite me wos called anti 'merican.. las nite me wos called anti semetic (bitch an all..shockin...:tong:)at a meetin... 2 day same peeps copped me at me bus stop wen me wos waitin 2 go 'ome an gave me a rite bollokin.. big lummox me don kno well started bollokin them for pikkin on a poor defenceless lil girl haffa ther size..an sayin same things 2 them me been sayin bout this crazy war... anya kno wot?? This gr8 lummox who stuck up for lil ole me is Jewish... an a rite nice lummox 'e is an all...:bigrin:

Ne ways..wot r Palestinians but arabs...an wot r arabs but semites...??? Sum peeps jus don move ther brain inta gear wen they rabbit on... an so they drivel on such tosh...:rolleyes:

[pottzie]

This thread makes me wonder again how well we can see ANYTHING that happens without attaching prejudices. It's as if everything is seen through a prism of distortions, and that the "eyes" in our mind fool us. It's Arab-Jew, or Catholic-Protestant, Negro-Euro descendant, cowboy-Indian, etc.
I keep thinking of the flap between Clint Eastwood and Spike Lee over whether blacks were portrayed favorably in the movie about the battle of Iwo Jima. How we see things varies by who's eyes it's seen through. There was a report just out that the war in Gaza was being reported far differently in Europe and America, with the American press favoring Israel.
For what it's worth, what would it be like if we woke up one morning to find that God, if he did exist, did not care who controlled that little strip of land. No big deal, you want it, you can have it. Flip a coin, draw straws. Just stop killing for it and dieing over it. It's dirt. If God wants to have a place to kick back he can come over to my place and twist up a doob. I'll bring the women (if he's into that.)

[darkeyes]

This thread makes me wonder again how well we can see ANYTHING that happens without attaching prejudices. It's as if everything is seen through a prism of distortions, and that the "eyes" in our mind fool us. It's Arab-Jew, or Catholic-Protestant, Negro-Euro descendant, cowboy-Indian, etc.

I agree with you Pottzie... as far as it goes...wich is why we should make every effort 2 get 2 the truth of the matter as far as we are able. There are many diffferent scources for information and to some degree we end up in part through upbringing and in part because of environmental reasons making a judgement as to what is the truth... which is precisely just one why we should never war on anyone.. I believe what I say and others what they do but their prejudices determine their view unless it is blatantly exposed not to be so. Do people deserve to be oppressed and/or killed because of a lie? There are vested interests as to why this happens and so humanity, or at least large sections of it suffer appallingly...

When I was at school we learned that the British Empire had been a great force for good.. and yet in Malaya, Burma, India, Kenya, South Africa and other huge parts of the British Empire saw huge amounts of what was termed "terrorism".. similarly the Dutch in Java and the French in Indo China, Algeria and other parts of their Empires found the same. ...and talking of IndoChina..the US also talked terrorism about their difficulties... Castro and his revolution were, and still are called terrorists in Cuba... by Americans mainly. The Spanish and Portuguese colonies, and those of Belgium had the same. Were they all terrorists? Or people fighting and dying and yes often committing awful atrocities on both the occupier and their own people? Russia and the old USSR also. Wherever there is strife and oppression there will be one side who talk of terrorism and another which talks of freedom fighting. We are educated to believe our way of life is right by our own masters and the society which serves them. I was raised to break free of that stupidity and think for myself...

In the end, if we truly believe in liberty and freedom we have a duty to weed out the wheat from the chaff and learn as best we can the truth of it.. there is a difference between the way the European and American media portray Gaza..and an Arab view and an Asian view. We should treat our own media, and certainly our own government view with the greatest of scepticism and question whatever they tell us...

[Bi-Zarro]

A number of relevant articles on the Gaza crisis can be found here:

http://www.fpif.org/

[Apleasureseeker]

Good lord, this conflict is even coming to this list!!

I'm not very political, partly because i have friends who represent all sorts of different elements, including Palestinains, Israelis and even some guys who fought in the US military. And I also hate this politicing in general. There's a big problem with that part of the world: there's always been fighting, and I don;t think anyone really wants to stop fighting. But every day this week I've encountered some sort of hipster hate-speech, and I really feel like letting this out:

first: what's going on in Gaza? Nearly every discussion about the fighting that is going on NOW gets entangles with history, religion and economics. That's all well and good, but that's not what the fighting is about now.

Isreal invaded because Hamas has been firing 12 or more rockets and mortars EVERY DAY at schools hospitals and other civillian targets for about 3 weeks. That's nearly 250 devices that have a potential to kill how any men women and children each? The fact that only a few people were killed seems to convince people SOMEHOW that that was not a serious threat. If, for example, Cuba or maybe the Isle of Man began missle attacks on the mainland, would it be OK as long as they didn't kill many people? How long before an attack would be mounted? Hamas hasn't stopped their offensive, although, according to the material some of you guys posted, the attacks on Israeli civilians are down to what was it? 9 a day? Thr entire time, Hamas has been taunting Israel with dire warnings. Was it sunday when they WARNED israel that they's better back off or else get a nasty surprise? Are they completely nuts? How badly do they want to be beaten?

It's a martyr culture. Winning is winning, but loosing is winning, to, if they can make a show of it. Remember too, that ,part of the reason that the Palestinians are stuck in that awful strip is that the other Arabic nations, the ones who are happy to jam more exlosives into that little rat-hole, DO NOT allow Paestinians to emmigrate, either. They give the Palestinians guns, point en at the enemey and say, "Go! fight your enemy to the death!"

Over the last week, I've been hearing incredibly anti-semitic stuff from supposedly liberal hipsters, ands I don't get it. This is an ugly, internal conflict. I was at a party a week ago where some guy was spewing the most hateful, yet 'intellectual' arguements against Jews based on this conflict, and he was convincing others. When I said that eventually they'll have to learn to live together, I though he was going to punch me. At a comedy show, an Isreaeli comic was heckled with racist comments.

I don't want to take sides. I just know you have to get along with your neighbors, and they have to get along with you. But if your neighbor is fining a small gun through your window everyday for three weeks, what do you do?

[Hephaestion]

There is now talk of getting the Turks involved in the area as 'observers' and 'fellow muslims'. Isn't Turkey supposed to be a a non-religious secular country?

Will it do any good to involve another country: that was once an unloved occupying force in the area; one that is overtly supported by the USA and publicised as friendly to Israel and yet claim that they are unbiased to the Palestinians.

Doesn't Turkey have a problem with its own human rights record?

.

[boca.openminded]

It is sad..most the world seems to see this conflict one way..and most people in the US quite differently.. I don't say Hamas are all good for they are not by a long chalk..or that Israel is all bad for it is not.. a dispossessed and oppressed people will do many desperate things to achieve dignity and liberty.. in the 18th century rebel colonists were branded traitors and terrorists by the British government of the day for fighting for their dignity and liberty.. the British did many evil and nasty things to stop them achieving it.. but equally, those self same freedom fighters who fought and died for liberty in North America were no innocents when it came to being less than nice before, during and after the US won its independence.. learn from your own history and open your own eyes..


and the point about the British govt is ?????

This has nothing to do with history. The bottom line is Hamas wants Israel to be a Palestinian country and the will do everything in their power to make it happen. If means to kill each and every Israeli then so be it.....

That is why there will always be war...Israel has gone as far as to give the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians in order to make peace and all that happened was Hamas got closer to Israel... Israel is also giving them 3 hours to for food & supplies to the Palestinians. Doesn't that show you that Israel wants peace & only peace...

I'll say it again you cant hold hands and sing "Give peace a chance" without learning what is going on. These people are terrorists...

Darkeyes --- don't you see what is going on? I learned both sides before I chose a side.. You should do the same!!!

[darkeyes]

and the point about the British govt is ?????

This has nothing to do with history. The bottom line is Hamas wants Israel to be a Palestinian country and the will do everything in their power to make it happen. If means to kill each and every Israeli then so be it.....

That is why there will always be war...Israel has gone as far as to give the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians in order to make peace and all that happened was Hamas got closer to Israel... Israel is also giving them 3 hours to for food & supplies to the Palestinians. Doesn't that show you that Israel wants peace & only peace...

I'll say it again you cant hold hands and sing "Give peace a chance" without learning what is going on. These people are terrorists...

Darkeyes --- don't you see what is going on? I learned both sides before I chose a side.. You should do the same!!!

Ther are nane si blind as thame that canni see....:(

[jamieknyc]

I would love to see any of these Western liberals who protest against the current war spend a week in Sderot.

Anyone can preach from the safety of America or the UK.

[darkeyes]

I would love to see any of these Western liberals who protest against the current war spend a week in Sderot.

Anyone can preach from the safety of America or the UK.

I would love to see any of those Western war mongers who argue for the current war spend a week in Gaza.

Anyone can preach war from the safety of America or the UK.

[azirish]

Fran, is not simply "anti American" or "anti British". This self hatred, like "jews for hezbollah" type of self hatred. I was in London six months ago, you know "Londonistan" as it is correctly called now. There are multiple mosques there preaching hate, not religion hate. Islam means submission, NOT peace. Don't worry we have been promised the "messiah" on January 20, 2009, he will decend from the heavens (or Invesco field) and save us all! Right Voltman? He is the "one" the "messiah".






I received a message from a member of the site which said simply "Another anti american. You need to open your eyes wider dear".

Let me state quite categorically I am not, and never have been anti american. Any who know me in the slightest know that to be a nonsense. I am however anti american government policy vis a vis Israel, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan and many other issues which touch on the wider world. Equally I am against my own governments policies regarding Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan as I am with its policies on staying out of the single European currency and not signing up 2 the Shengen agreement, on its immigration policy and its appaling treatment of those who enter the country illegally. This does not make me anti British. I abhorr many things about French government policies including its own immigration policies. Yet it does not make me anti French for I love France and the French and it is my preferred holiday destination. There are many things I loathe about many countries political philosophies and policies. I am anti none of these countries.. I am anti the policy and those who implement those policies. I am a person of strong opinions as are many on this site. But my opinions do not make me anti anything except those policies and their instigators which I may believe are wrong.

That I am in many ways most critical about US policy is because most of the issues raised in a wider context on site happen to American policies. Its just the way the site is... with a preponderance of American people on site many of whom also criticise their own Governments policies. So please..no more accusations about that which you know little, bi in PA..

[darkeyes]

Fran, is not simply "anti American" or "anti British". This self hatred, like "jews for hezbollah" type of self hatred. I was in London six months ago, you know "Londonistan" as it is correctly called now. There are multiple mosques there preaching hate, not religion hate. Islam means submission, NOT peace. Don't worry we have been promised the "messiah" on January 20, 2009, he will decend from the heavens (or Invesco field) and save us all! Right Voltman? He is the "one" the "messiah".God.. jus amazes me they let u out onya own... jus teeny weensy wee exaggeration wudntcha say?? Don open ya gob an letya belly rumble wen reely ya havn a clue wotya talkin bout... :rolleyes:

[Hephaestion]

[QUOTE=boca.openminded;119963]and the point about the British govt is ?????

In the case of Palestine and Israel, the British government would appear to have promised the same bit of land to both sides. Initialy it was to the Palestinian arabs. The Isralis came second and that was as a result of the revelations during WW2, although, it should be borne in mind that jews were not the only victims. The USA was and remains prominent in supporting the establishment of an Israeli nation and this was utlimately mandated through the UN ca1947.

As flimsy excuse, Britain having bought so much help from the USA and committed itself to looking after the welfare of the defeated in WW2, was in no position to deny the establishment of Israel but that was, and remains, quite clearly at the expense of the Palestinians. So the sequence of occupation goes as

others > Romans > crusades > Turks > British > Israelis

The Palestinians? Who are they?

I believe that Britain's war debt for having bought help in WW2 was finally paid off to the USA towards the end of 2007

[Bi-Zarro]

One last time...here's the chronology of events:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/14-13

[darkeyes]

When are America and the rest of the world going to wake up? - Israel is the problem

Israel's aggressive and brutal policies have been dictating American foreign policies and put the American people at risk for further terrorist action against our country. The world and the Muslim world rightly sees that whatever destructive and invasive action taken by Israel is fully endorse, supported, financed by the United States. We could easily stop Israel from driving the Middle East to the desperate means they are going to through simply not paying for all those weapons of mass destruction. The power to bring peace to the middle east is in our hands. We don't really want peace there.

WASHINGTON – President George W. Bush rejected a plea from Israel last year to help it raid Iran's main nuclear complex, opting instead to authorize a new U.S. covert action aimed at sabotaging Iran's suspected nuclear weapons program, The New York Times reported.
Israel's request was for specialized bunker-busting bombs that it wanted for an attack that tentatively involved flying over Iraq to reach Iran's major nuclear complex at Natanz, where the country's only known uranium enrichment plant is located, the Times reported Saturday in its online edition. The White House deflected requests for the bombs and flyover but said it would improve intelligence-sharing with Israel on covert U.S. efforts to sabotage Iran's nuclear program.
The covert efforts, which began in early 2008, involved plans to penetrate Iran's nuclear supply chain abroad and undermine electrical systems and other networks on which Iran relies, the Times said, citing interviews with current and former U.S. officials, outside experts and international nuclear inspectors who spoke on condition of anonymity. The covert program will be handed off to President-elect Barack Obama, who will deciding whether to continue it.

Things changed in South Africa. Things can change in Israel too but we need to not ignore our part in sanctioning the oppression of the Palestinian people, and how Israel is hypocritical about the holocaust and would easily have a mass genocide of Palestinians if they could.
God..me dus luff peeps who can c through ther state media an propaganda... muah!!!:tong:

[fairbankswingers]

Here we go again, europeans blaming the US, then even better getting into bed with those who started the blood shed (the terrorist) and those who support and hide them (the Palestinians)...if you folks really feel Israel is the problem your an idiot, plain and simple...go live in Israel once, try sleeping when Humas (the duly elected government of Gaza) sends rockets towards your house, killing your children and then tell me that those is Gaza are not at fault, FUCK THEM they are reaping their just reward for allowing Humas to openly violate the cease fire agreement...ya, blame Israel - always so much easier then terrorist, and of course that's what terrorist want...thanks losers...hope you all like bowing to allah and being muslim because that's where your headed if you think these folks want anything less your a fucking dumbass...oh, and just remember your all on here identified as being BI or gay...your head will be the first that Humas and the new muslim governments will take first...but ya, their tolerant

[fairbankswingers]

I would love to see any of those Western war mongers who argue for the current war spend a week in Gaza.

Anyone can preach war from the safety of America or the UK.

Well, I spent over 2 years in Iraq, 1 and a half in Afghanistan, been in Israel for training and saw rockets shot towards Israel from a school in gaza (ya, I can hear you now - well thats what those dirty jews deserve for hatin on the Muslim) and have been in Bosnia....the one thing that I hate the most if Europeans love to criticize the US but if it was not for our nation Europe would be fucked....you people keep starting shit and then never want to fight, or sign agreements of MUTUAL DEFENSE and then fucking run when the body count goes up - FUCK EUROPE, you people want money from the US and since your not getting so much anymore all you can do is hate - never seen so many socialist people bitch about the US more then Europeans, and Canadians and the funny part is the US and her citizens give more to people in the world then any other nation and that is a fact...hell the US is always the first to reach out to help others in times of need, but then where the fuck was europe (or your great nation of UK) when we were hit with katrina, or 9/11...FUCK YOU...why not go visit that terrorist and see if they will stop beheading jews and gentiles and gays...oh wait your a female, in other words to them your lower then a dog...fucking idiot...

[fairbankswingers]

Ther are nane si blind as thame that canni see....:(

Your most likely from the same gene pool who said Hitler really was not killing jews, gypsies and gays too...you know the liberals who said, "Oh, Poland really is not a big dal, he is just trying to keep the peace, oh, no, the nazis are not that way, they are really nice they would not run concentration camps...Your a dumbass...and I can bet have never done anything but hide behind a key board...love to see you meet one of these lovely terrorists...bet you would let them kill you or your family in the name of peace...fuck that...I have no issues helping them meet allah...

[capricornx22]

I thought this current thread had no place on this site, as this site is for those who chosen an alternative way of life. I guess though you can say that is what is going on in Gaza. It seems from the beginning of time people cannot accept others for their ways or beliefs and that because of a few maniacs many must suffer.


The Jews seem to be doing the same thing another maniac named Hitler did to them and now they're trying to send the Palestinians into extinction as well. I have no love for war no matter who may be right, but Israel has an large and modern Army that should be able to go in without killing innocent civilians.

I can't imagine that they can truly believe they will stop anything by this so called war. It might stop it for the moment but not forever, people need to accept each other and learn to live with each other. Peace is not an easy thing to achieve but it can not really be won by beating someone to their knees.

As for those of us who came to this site to be able to talk about what others would otherwise persecute us for how can we as bi or gays not understand.

signed
a 1968 Viet Nam Vet again useless wars :grouphug:



Martin Luther King, Jr.

Men often hate each other because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they can not communicate; they can not communicate because they are separated.

[Bi-Zarro]

Also let's not forget how America is Israel's bitch and they have ALL of their weapons and military funding from JEW$ in the US

It's anti-Semitic language like this that turns otherwise rational people into right-wing Zionists.

It's also factually wrong. If anything, Israel is Americas "bitch." The tail does not wag the dog. Noam Chomsky has explained this repeatedly in response to "Zionist Occupied Government" conspiracy-mongers.

Reactionary, offensive nonsense about "JEW$" does nothing to help the long-suffering Palestinian refugees.

[Hephaestion]

Thanks for the URL bi-zarro but nowhere on that do I see anything other than a list for 2008.

If you read earlier postings you will note the comments about being selective about matters depending on who one believes and what weight one attaches and at what moment in time. One should also bear in mind that it is quite possible to re-write history to suit. Someone else has pointed out that victors or the more powerful are normally the ones who do that. Very often this is to hide the misdeeds that they carried out in some 'noble cause'. In days of old, the accussation of re-writing history was laid at the door of 'communists'. Nowadays we call it 'misinformation' to gain advantage over 'terrorists'. These are subjective terms in themselves designed to sway and hold support.

Likely the start of the present phase of the problem were well intentioned acts on behalf of each of two peoples. Unfortunately those acts have led to strife ever since because even the simple repercussions were not given sufficent thought. We in the west are not blameless in this.

Whilst we readily remember the oppression of Jews we should also remember the oppression of Palestinians. However, ultimately, there is no point in blame or priority. The intention should be to stop the maiming and the bloodshed on both sides.

.

[darkeyes]

Your most likely from the same gene pool who said Hitler really was not killing jews, gypsies and gays too...you know the liberals who said, "Oh, Poland really is not a big dal, he is just trying to keep the peace, oh, no, the nazis are not that way, they are really nice they would not run concentration camps...Your a dumbass...and I can bet have never done anything but hide behind a key board...love to see you meet one of these lovely terrorists...bet you would let them kill you or your family in the name of peace...fuck that...I have no issues helping them meet allah...

If you had ever read and understood a word I have ever written you would realise how ridiculous you sound....

[csrakate]

I, for one, would love to see this thread locked and/or deleted. The behavior that has erupted from a simple debate has gotten out of hand and I truly believe it has no place on this site at this point. Just my :2cents:

[fairbankswingers]

I thought this current thread had no place on this site, as this site is for those who chosen an alternative way of life. I guess though you can say that is what is going on in Gaza. It seems from the beginning of time people cannot accept others for their ways or beliefs and that because of a few maniacs many must suffer.


The Jews seem to be doing the same thing another maniac named Hitler did to them and now they're trying to send the Palestinians into extinction as well. I have no love for war no matter who may be right, but Israel has an large and modern Army that should be able to go in without killing innocent civilians.

I can't imagine that they can truly believe they will stop anything by this so called war. It might stop it for the moment but not forever, people need to accept each other and learn to live with each other. Peace is not an easy thing to achieve but it can not really be won by beating someone to their knees.

As for those of us who came to this site to be able to talk about what others would otherwise persecute us for how can we as bi or gays not understand.

signed
a 1968 Viet Nam Vet again useless wars :grouphug:



Martin Luther King, Jr.

Men often hate each other because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they can not communicate; they can not communicate because they are separated.

This is my favorite shit from far left idiots...Israel and the United States DO NOT TARGET CIVILIANS...Humas and Terrorist do...Innocent folks are going to get hurt in a war where the other side HIDES and STORES and USES CIVILIANS AS SHIELDS...you are the same idiots who think gitmo is bad because you don't really understand who it is that is kept there and who it is we are fighting in this WORLD WAR (that most of Europe is ignoring in the name of peace - and slowing being taken over with Islamic law) these terrorist may be human in the basic sense, however they are far from civilized human beings, and they believe killing the jew or gentile is God sanctioned and the more they kill the higher place they will have in heaven...this is not your war in Vietnam (which was won by the military and lost by politics) this is a war for our way of life much like WWII against the Nazis...but worse...guess we have all forgotten what was going on in Afghanistan in the soccer turned into public execution stages...the left has always fought for the rights of our enemy, I am just glad there are others like me willing to defend this nation and your rights to be against the US and the US military...there has never been a nation who has spent as much money and time as the US to keep from killing innocent civilians, but yet you all sing praises of the terrorist who believe it or not would kill you and your entire family if they could...you talk about how we are prosecuted as gay or bi...well your little terrorist buddies who hide in the civilian areas would behead your ass in a minute...

[Brian]

I, for one, would love to see this thread locked and/or deleted. The behavior that has erupted from a simple debate has gotten out of hand and I truly believe it has no place on this site at this point. Just my :2cents:

I am inclined to agree. Let's all take a bit of a break on this topic on this site.