Transgender Legal Struggles

[MarieDelta]

I found the following article on line (http://www.twincities.com/ci_11361606)

So here's the thing, I know that many people fantasize about bein with transexual people. I've even had some folks claim that they love us, love the idea of being with us, love everything about us. That we are the "best of both worlds.


At the same time it is damn difficult in this society to be trans. Discrimination is rampant against us, and there are only local laws to protect us.

So I challenge everyone of you who tell me that you find us "the best of both worlds" or who love transsexuals/ transgendered even crossdressers and transvestites to speak out. Lend your voices to ours make it easier to be trans in this culture.

We need your support , a vote for someone who is more queer/ LGBT positive is a step in the right direction, and you dont even have to tell your neighbors that you voted that way. No need to be out at all.

So think about it. By increasing tollerance , you increase the number of transwomen, and there by increasing the chances you'll get to meet one of us openly.

[csrakate]

Marie,
I challenge anyone who tells you that you have the "best of both worlds" to spend a day in your life and see just how "easy" it is for you. I, for one, am tired of that comment and for someone to say that to you simply reduces your life struggle to something that heightens a prurient interest of their own. While I believe we all need to be pro-active in enacting laws that lessen the struggle of the transexual's/transgender's fight for identity, we need to start within ourselves by eradicating the preconceived notions that they have the "best of both worlds". I implore everyone to PLEASE stop using that terrible phrase when talking to a transgender/transexual and instead look upon them as who they are....people with feelings who struggle daily to simply be on the outside who they feel they are on the inside.

Hugs,
Kate

[onewhocares]

Like Kate I too find the comments made about the Best of Both Worlds to be irresponsible. I have had the privilege to be close friends with a wonderful woman who is transgendered. For people to assume that the path she chooses to walk down is strewn with roses is so wrong. I have seen first hand the struggles with in as well as those around her and I have never met such a courageous woman..well yes I do, Marie is her equal.

To gain insight into others in the world we must open ourselves up to accept and learn from all of those around us.

Belle

[darkeyes]

Transpeeps r as gud as ne 1... bout time we did summat bout makin sure the world accepts it an all.. Marie an 1 or 2 othas hav opened me eyes bout ther lives an given me if not an undastandin but at least an inklin an the beginnin a undastandin...

[PearlGirl]

Bi-s and Trannies both challenge traditional polarized views on gender in this society in radical ways. Trans folks are some of the wisest people I have had the pleasure of knowing. All of that suffering and discrimination does often bring with it a great amount of wisdom and strength. Both bi-s and Trannies are often marginalized by the broader LGBT community. For the two reasons listed above I believe we are each other's natural political/social allies.

Trans Pride!!! Bi-Pride!!! :three:

[MissyMissy]

I do not like that best of both worlds ideal. i get that myself when i say i like both sexes. it is not like that. it is a struggle everyday in some way dealing with ignorant morons and leaving abusive situations because of my sexuality at times and because i also am doing my best to leave abusive situations. right now i have asked for help everywhere around here just to start over and get a lil boost even if just a few months so i can "live" again and i get nothing but grief. so i understand in my own way the aggravation the tears and the fun and joy.
and just because i like the same sex the transgendered so on so forth doesnt mean i think i am having the best of both worlds. no matter who you are what sex someone is ya can be nice or a jerk.
all this aggravation with others denying someone who is different from being who they truly are is simply one word to me...abuse. right now i am fighting my own struggle. when i get some of that done i have no issue helping anyone out.
trinity

[MarieDelta]

Thanks guys, as always I knew/ know that I can depend on you all for support.

Every little step, every little acknowledgement, leads us closer to full rights.

Because we dont, as of yet, have full rights everywhere.

In many places you can lose your home, your job, the right to marry, the right to inherit, and even the right to be yourself.


I do think that Bi and trans folk are natuaral allies, because we are both somehere in the middle. Being outside the Binary has its price.

In many ways, protecting my right is the smae as presering your own rights.

((huggles Everyone))

[Danielle_Tremblay]

Marie, please do NOT take this the wrong way. I believe in what you say, and i believe that YOU BELIEVE it too. All of us, no matter how noble in our cause sometimes do not give the time to really really think it through and, in doing so, place ourselves just that much higher on the soapbox. In your post you stated "or who love transsexuals/ transgendered even crossdressers and transvestites". Even crossdressers and transvestites ? like we are an after thought to the community ? I KNOW you did not mean it as it sounds but, having been the way i am since childhood, i have seen this sort of thing even in the T-girl community. Person's who have gone on or been fortunate enough in their lives to go past being "just a Transvestite" to be on a hormone regimen or even SRS. Once they take this golden step, they seem to somehow have forgotten their "roots" and make statements like these as if to say "look ! i'm no longer a poseur". Again, i do understand that you did not mean it that way or even PearlGirl who stated "Bi-s and Trannies both challenge traditional polarized views" which is somewhat of a derogatory term in and of itself...."Trannies" that is.

I know i may inflame with my point of view and i do not mean to, i simply make a point that we, all of us, are capable of being discriminatory at the best of times in our lives through simple complacency or at times out and out ignorance by our very deeds, actions or words even though we may not think so. Sort of like a statement that would have been made in the racialized 60's and 70's when Dr.Martin Luther King was fighting for racial equality. One well meaning white person may say something akin to "i think black people are great, i would hire one myself".

Why can't we all just get along? Why can't we just be people, human beings , each on our own quest through this thing called life. I have lost a home, a life and more from a divorce where my partner could not understand that i was the same person with the same feelings that she had always known but she could not see her way through what i wanted to be and still love her. I am now with a woman who has that rare ability, to see past the shroud and to be able to look deep inside my soul and see the good person i am, the good person we all are deep down inside.......please, all of you......BE GOOD PEOPLE.

Love and Peace......Danielle

[MarieDelta]

hi Danielle,

I know that the rift in the transgender comunity is wide. No, I do not consider transvesties of crossdressers to be inferior to transexuals.

We are all of us part of the same community, you are my sibling wether you dress for the weekened or are 3 years post op. What I was trying to say is that no matter what your gender you should be respected.

Some people seem to think that transvestites and crossdressers have an easier time of it, which is complete BS IMHO. You folks face the same problems as transexuals do, anytime you choose to express yourself. Its not as if the person who would discriminate against me would treat you any different. In his mind we are all "it" and "that thing" or "that tranny."

So yeah, no slight was meant, please accept my appologies.

Marie

[MarieDelta]

OK Scott,

Yours is certainly a position of I heard before on both sides of the fence.

But when a "flaming" gay man or a butch dyke is persecuted, why do you think they are being persecuted?

Not becuase of their sexual orientation, no one can see that.

Because they are gender variant, and thats why we are in with the LGBT.

I am sure that you are most likely a bisexual male of wasp persuasion, because you have white male priveledge and what is commonly called "passing" priveledge.

If we dont hang together, surely they will hang us seperately. But you probaly dont understand what that means.

How about because it improves the world, reduces waste and makes this ol' ball of dirt a nicer place to be on?

[PearlGirl]

Quote from Transgender Legal Struggles Thread: "Again, i do understand that you did not mean it that way or even PearlGirl who stated “Bi-s and Trannies both challenge traditional polarized views” which is somewhat of a derogatory term in and of itself....”Trannies” that is." -Danielle_Tremblay

Quote from Transgender Legal Struggles Thread: "In his mind we are all “it” and “that thing” or “that tranny.”" -MarieDelta

First off I want to apologize to Danielle and Marie if my usage of the word “trannie” or “tranny” was derogatory or offensive. That was certainly not my intent in any way. I will stop using this term entirely now that I have been made aware that it might be seen as offensive to some in our community.
I have never before heard that the term could be offensive but I did grow up in a gay neighborhood and then moved to San Francisco so perhaps I have just been living in a bubble. Out here on the West Coast it’s common for many transsexuals that I know to refer to themselves as “trannies” and for many younger gay bi or pan people to refer to themselves as “queer” (although some older gay/bi folks have said they find the term queer offensive.) We even have a bar called “Tranny Shack” in SF that has been voted Best Transsexual Club by our local paper for the past five years. Thanks for schooling me Danielle.
There is a link to their website here if folks are interested at: http://www.trannyshack.com/ I'm also sorry for any weird formatting on this post.

Now that I’ve made my apologies I would like to address Scott’s comments both in several threads and in the p.m. he sent me.

1) “Why should I care about Transsexuals? I fail to see the reasons at all and their needs don’t concern me just like our needs don’t concern them.”

IMHO it is smart strategy as we work towards social change to avoid trap of weighing and measuring oppression. Underneath it all we all want the same things. We want respect, understanding, we want a voice, we want equality and we want to be safe. Transexual people deserve this as much as all human beings do.

2) "Ask any gays/lesbians, and most bisexuals and they’ll tell you the exact same thing."

There are many gay, lesbian, bi, straight and queer people who are allies for transgender rights. I personally know of many here in the Bay Area. How about straight members of PFLAG nationwide? And the fact that GLBT includes the “T” should be enough evidence that most people in the queer community care about transgender issues.

3) "Straight people don’t care either, and it’s hard enough to get them on our side when it comes to Gay/lesbian/bisexual issues."

As someone who has worked as a full-time activist for social justice I can tell you that the past of least resistance is never a vision for true change in society. I heard a similar argument as a union organizer at times from certain workers. One higher paid group (engineers for example) would say, “Why should we organize ourselves into the same union as housekeepers? Why can’t we just organize ourselves into a union of just engineers?” While, it’s true that one union of just engineers (a small component of the total industrial workforce) could organize and win some small concessions from an employer history has shown time and time again that the biggest gains for workers have happened when ALL workers in an industry have organized themselves together to take on the employers.

The same is true for GLBTQ folks IMO. There is power and strength in numbers and unity. From your argument ne would have to wonder why one should include bisexuals in the movement, or lesbians for that matter? Or why should more affluent white gay males include low income gay males or people of color?

Bisexuals have had to lobby hard for the inclusion of the B in L & G pride marches, conferences, and media with many successes and some failures. In 1990 in Northampton, Massachusetts some in the lesbian community successfully lobbied to have the B removed from the title of the Lesbian, Bisexual and Gay Pride march and to remove out bisexuals from the steering committee even though out bisexuals had been active on the steering committee for five years. Transgender hadn’t even made it into the title of the march yet. I’d be careful who you want to exclude, Scott. You may very well be the next one to go!

Also what about bisexual transgendered people? Should we include only the Bisexual tansgendered folks in your vision of a movement and exclude monosexual trans folk or should bisexual trans people be excluded based on their transgenderism rather than their bisexuality?

How would these decisions be reached?

4) "Sorry the T should not be in with GLB since the T is all about someone’s gender and not their sexuality."

Many transgendered people are marginalized for violating traditional societal gender roles.

Many bisexual people are marginalized for challenging the necessity of basing sexual orientation on gender divisions.

Bisexual and transgendered people both tend to challenge traditional polarized views on gender in this society in radical ways.

Bisexual transgendered people challenge gender in both of the ways mentioned above.

Many transpeople are starting to challenge bisexuals on the idea that there are only two distinct genders at all. As Kate Bornstein says: “In the majority of cultures in the world, the socially acceptable, easy way to define one’s sexual preference or orientation depends on the gender identity of our sexual partners. To make things worse, the gender identity we’re attracted to must also be phrased in terms of men and women. We’re attracted to men or women or both; that’s the sum total of our desire. So, sex (the act) becomes hopelessly linked to gender (the category).

And what about sexual attraction? That’s linked to gender attribution. First we attribute a gender, then we decide if we want to be attracted to that person; but the first filter is almost always “Is that person the right gender for me, sexually and romantically?”

Finally, what we enjoy doing sexually, the sex act itself often involves a specific sort of genital play, and as genitals have been gendered in this culture, so sex has become gendered.”

“No wonder people want to use the term “sex” for both the identity (gender) and the act (sex). The two have become interdependent. In terms of our sexual desires and our gender identities we’ve opted for the easy way out, the “everybody knows it’s this way” solution. “Everyone knows the way I define my desire is by the gender of my partner.

Personally, I can’t buy that. If the world’s great thinkers have taught us anything, it’s that we rarely achieve personal fulfillment by mindlessly wandering through life, taking the path of least resistance and little or no responsibility for our actions. We need to question our assumptions about sex and gender, if we’re going to understand that aspect of ourselves and others.”

Hmmm…starting to see any similarities between bi and trans folks here?

5) "Thankfully my boyfriend and I are in a state where we can get married legally and we’re much more concerned about the rights and well being of gay/lesbian/bisexual people.

Most of us GLB people don’t care about Trans people. You said so yourself Marie."

I’m very happy that you live in a state where you can legally marry your boyfriend. Again in the marriage debate gender is often the bone of contention over who is allowed to marry in this society and who is not. The very same dualistic definitions of gender, identity and desire that bisexual and transgendered folks challenge most.

6) "Also do not try to mention Stonewall because that happened 40 years ago, it’s not relevant to today at all, and nobody cares about the very few trans people who may or may not have been present there and yet claim that they were there when they were not.

Sorry Stonewall always has and always will be a concept for homosexual revolution in NYC!"

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it’s mistakes. Not sure what the comment about whether or not a significant number of transgendered people were present at Stonewall. It seems quite well documented that a significant number of transgendered people were protesting at Stonewall.

Also it is quite interesting to note that three years before the famous rioting at New York’s Stonewall Inn often billed as the first time gays rose up against police harassment, there was a riot in San Francisco at Gene Compton’s Cafeteria . Folks can find out more about this at:
http://www.comptonscafeteriariot.org/. And by checking out the
documentary “Screaming Queens” according to the website: “In the
streets of the Tenderloin, at Turk and Taylor on a hot August night in
1966, Gays rose up angry at the constant police harassment of the
drag-queens by the police. It had to be the first ever recorded violence
by Gays against police anywhere.”

Transgendered people have much to contribute to helping to breakdown
gender barriers and misconceptions within the bisexual community itself. We are both newly included in the GLBTQ pantheon and can help each other to gain greater inclusion and acceptance both within and outside of the queer community. As Kory Martin-Damon says: “If the bisexual community turns it’s back on transsexuals, it is essentially turning it’s back on itself. For in the singling out of any one group as undesirable, it is adhering to the old patriarchal idiom of “we” and “they,” thus nullifying its purpose by asserting that only some life choices are valid. The inclusion of transgendered people can only empower any movement (such as the bisexual movement) that seeks to bring about changes in social mores and gender norms. No other group of people has broken so many gender rules and barriers, or redefined so many gender roles.” I hope this explains my position on transgender rights and why I’m an ally for you, Scott.

In case it does not I will include the following article from: http://www.margaretrobinson.com/jour...nsactions.html by Margaret Robinson.

Bisexual TransActions

What do Transsexual and Transgender have to do with Bisexuality?

This article appeared in a zine I made for Pride Week 2002, called Bi Dyke.

Remember musical chairs? There's a circle of chairs and the music starts and we all run around the circle. The music stops and everyone darts for a chair. But it's a trick, because there's not enough chairs for everyone. Lately I'm feeling trapped in this game. There's only three seats, and gay and lesbian already have two of them. Trans and bi stand staring at each other and at that last empty chair....

I'm not transsexual, and I don't identify as transgender, so I can't speak from that experience. I write from a long-held feminist position that gender is a social construction, and trans theory doesn't always fit my political landscape. That said, I'm strongly against the type of politics that quotes lines from Janice Raymond's Transsexual Empire at people before kicking them out of women's groups, shelters, or rape crisis centres.

Even if I don't always understand trans theory, I understand trans activism and the experience of being excluded. I've seen the same types of things said about bisexuals get used against transmen and transwomen. I've heard people claim that including trans in their group title will "confuse" people, or "distract from the [real, more important] issues." In light of the similarity between our exclusion from gay and lesbian community, transsexuals and transgendered people are our natural allies.

There's just enough space (or so it's claimed) on banners, logos, and newspaper headings for three words: a holy trinity of sexual diversity. Increasingly, I've seen people use "gay, lesbian and trans." (See, for example "Pride's Naked Truth," in Xtra, pg. 9, no. 461, June 27, 2002). I admit, it makes me resentful, and angry. But the appropriate target for those feelings isn't the trans community. It's the people who pretend there's only so much liberation to go around, and who would have us fight our trans allies for that last coveted spot.

By agreeing to fight for third place we lose a lot. Many transfolk are supportive of bi inclusion. Many are also part of the bi community as activists, organizers and participants. There's no clear-cut line between us and them, men and women, masculine and feminine. Trans perspectives can help us define what we really mean by bisexuality in a world that is revealed to be multi-sexed and multi-gendered. They challenge us to practice the type of inclusion we usually demand.

To return to the metaphor of musical chairs, I think that playing by these rules is a mistake in the long run. Because every round they remove another chair, until there's just one kid left sitting.


Copyright © 2006 by Margaret Robinson.

[TaylorMade]

Why should we care?

Sorry why should I care about Transsexuals? I fail to see the reasons at all and their needs don't concern me just like our needs don't concern them.

Ask any gays/lesbians, and most bisexuals and they'll tell you the exact same thing.

Straight people don't care either, and it's hard enough to get them on our side when it comes to Gay/lesbian/bisexual issues.

Sorry the T should not be in with GLB since the T is all about someone's gender and not their sexuality.

Plus us GLB people don't care about Trans people.

Also do not try to mention Stonewall because that happened 40 years ago, it's not relavent to today at all, and nobody cares about the very few trans people who may or may not have been present there and yet claim that they were there when they were not.

Sorry Stonewall always has and always will be a concept for homosexual revolution in NYC!

There's something highly familiar about you...

*Taylor*

[Danielle_Tremblay]

PearlGirl et al.....please....no apology necessary. I am sure i know when the intent is and is not there, i was merely drawing attention to the fact that all of us(myself included) make daily faux pas, it's just human nature....i love you all.

Scott, please, don't care, that's why society is headed for the toilet, noone cares anymore. Wasn't it Charles Dickens' character, Bob Marley who said....."mankind should have been my business" ? Seeing past someone's shell is a starting point. Oh and as per your quote "Sorry the T should not be in with GLB since the T is all about someone's gender and not their sexuality". It's not about sexuality? I think you should educate yourself before making such ludicrous statements my friend.....just a thought....D

[csrakate]

There's something highly familiar about you...

*Taylor*
Yes....he/she/it was very busy yesterday with a variety of names....making the same hateful posts as he/she/it has made over time....all of which have been reported.

[PearlGirl]

Thanks, Danielle! You are right that all of us make daily faux pas. Glad I was able 2 get the foot out of my mouth! I hope I didn't rant too much. Love you all!

[csrakate]

Thanks, Danielle! You are right that all of us make daily faux pas. Glad I was able 2 get the foot out of my mouth! I hope I didn't rant too much. Love you all!

PearlGirl, one of the beauties of this site is that we can all learn a thing or two, and when it's obvious that good intent is behind those "faux pas" then there isn't anything to be ashamed of or embarrassed by. One other lesson for you, however...your very well intentioned response to Scott was all for naught...Scott is a troll, the same one who has posted ad nauseam with a variety of names. Best thing you can do when he/she/it posts is to ignore the contents and report the post. To further allow him a platform is only going to give him the attention he so obviously seeking. Not to mention it is a tremendous waste of time, effort and emotion for you.

Hugs,
Kate

[MarieDelta]

Saw this article (http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/2009/01/10/gainesvilles-fight/) about the political fight in Gainesville, FL.

They are seeking to remove the Antidiscrimination laws, its a good chance to get involved. For those of you in the area.

[izzfan]

As a crossdresser, I have to say that it is great to see that people accept that we are just as valid as TS people when it comes to transgender issues. True, the problems that us crossdressers face are not always as serious as those faced by TS people (mainly that many of us can easily hide the fact that we are TG in everyday life) but crossdressers face problems too.

However, do not think for one minute that I am belittling the struggles of my fellow CDs and I often think that the problems that crossdressers face are pretty much ignored by most people: for example, many crossdressers (myself included) discover that they are crossdressers at a young age and unlike gay/lesbian/bi people, there is not a lot of awareness of TG issues, very few TG people in the media etc... Personally, I discovered that I was a crossdresser when I was about 13 and it wasn't until I was about 16 that I was finally able to learn that I was not alone (I saw an interview with Eddie Izzard on "Top Gear" and was astounded that there was someone just like me), I won't even go into the amount of inner conflict/stress/fear etc.. that I felt when I was younger (and how much of that still lingers). For older crossdressers, there are also an equal number of problems - some crossdressers are married and have to keep it secret from their spouse for fear of how they may react (being completely in the closet is not healthy in any way, shape or form), if a crossdresser goes out "en femme" then they face just as much potential harassment/violence as a TS person. I could go on for quite a while but I'm sure you all get what I am trying to say.

As for the "best of both worlds" concept, I would be a liar to deny that when I was younger and discovering the bisexual parts of my sexuality (at about age 17-18), there was a time when I held these erroneous views. Looking back, it was ignorant of me and I am quite embarassed about it. This is not to say that, now, I would never feel attracted to a TS man/woman but I would see them as exactly that, a man or a woman, rather than some bizarre concept ("the best of both worlds") that I used to think was true. Thank you Marie for pointing out the ignorant nature of such views, I guess these views tend to happen when people have not actually met/ talked to a TS person before and have to rely on stereotypes (and probably pornography) to shape their image of TS people (probably as some form of exotic curiosity) rather than realising that they are people just like everyone else.