Patriotism and Love of My World:A Viewpoint

[darkeyes]

All my life, I have been exposed to the philosophy of patriotism, and of humanity’s need to belong, be true to, and die in defence of the place of their birth, or the country which has adopted them, or rather they have adopted, and to support at whatever cost to their own pride, principles and personal loyalties, that place which expounds all that is good about our world, to the exclusion of any ideal or belief we may have.

I often complain about the philosophy of “my country, right or wrong”, the very ethos of patriotism, and the way we are cajoled, bullied or sucked into betraying everything we hold most dear in the name of patriotism.

There is wholesale condemnation of Germans who followed the Feuhrer, for their blind patriotism, based on an odious creed in support of national superiority and racial purity, and which brought Europe and much of the world to wrack and ruin. Equally there is condemnation of the Japanese for doing the same thing in the name of the God Emperor and the way of the warrior, and which in itself was also a racist creed. That millions had to die or have their bodies and souls ruined before these philosophies were crushed and discreditted is a condemantion of that very credo of patriotism which so many expound. Certainly they were extreme forms of patriotism, but any and all creeds which are able to bring the world so close to absolute barbarism are creeds we cannot afford. It can be argued that any philosophy has that potential and I would concede that point. It can be argued that a philosphy designed to further human understanding, equality,compassion and tolerance has this built in flaw and I would concede that also. The political philosophy which I have espoused all my life, Socialism is just such a philosophy and it can be argued as it has and will be again, been the cause of so much suffering and destruction that it should be consigned to the dustbin of history never again to surface to blight humankind.

All ideologies and belief systems suffer from human interference, and human interpretation. What the Soviet Union and others implemented was never socialism but a philosphy of state control and capitalism denied the true democracy the socialism requires to survive and thrive. It is not an inherently evil system, yet like any belief system is open to the corruption which our species seems to bring to almost all it touches. I do not believe that this will always be the case with any system which has at its heart the well being of all mankind as the core of its existence. National Socialism, Fascism or the creeds of imperialism have at their centre the well being of one people at the expense of all others, and even within that philosophy there is no room for equality within the populations which those creeds seek to give domination to. Patriotism can and is used to ensure that peoples are subservient to the state no matter the justice of the cause. Patriotism will always be used in this way until humankind realises that the state is not interested in them as human beings, or their welfare, but in the welfare of those who are the ruling elite of the state.

It is irrelevant how many are sacrificed at the altar of patriotism, until the moment comes when the appalling waste of those to be sacrificed begin to endanger the state and the ruling elite. Then at times such as these does the ruling elite begin to realise its neck is in a noose, and begins the process of trying to extricate itself. In 1918 for instance, the ruling elite of Germany was in just such a position and it was this as much as because defeat was inevitable that finally made the ruling political and economic elite of that country seek peace when it did on the terms that it did. It had to save what it could of its power when revolution by those to be sacrificed began revolution throughout the country. Over the course of the following 15 years the German elites did what they had to to retain power. Even in the end to gettin into bed with the devil himself, and setting the world up for the holocaust to follow. The return of patriotism allied to National Socialism and its racist ethosis the most extreme example of patriotic endeavour, and should serve as a warning to us all about the very dangers of this insidious and unscrupulous ethos. Of course it is human beings who preach it and are therefore responsible for its crimes, for an idea is just an idea, for good or ill. Only with human intervetion and action can it every become a force for good or ill.

I am British, a Scot and I love my country..even the non Scottish part. I love the city in which I was born, the mountains, the coastline, the rivers and lochs. I love the people and the humour, and am enormously proud of the contribution my countrymen and women have made for the good of humanity. Yet I feel shame for the contribution many of those same people made to enslave the world, and to steal from other peoples the resources and wealth of their countries, the destruction wrought and the imposition of belief systems to supplant those of cultures the world over. While my country, be it Britain or just that little northen part called Scotland, and its people have done great good, it has, arguably done much greater harm. In the time of the British Empire, I believe that this is in fact unarguable. The British Empire was created by greedy and ruthless adventurers and businessmen, by politicians only interetsed in making themselves and their own kind, the ruling elite as powerful and as wealthy as they could . They did not care about their fellow Britons, far less did they care about the indigenous peoples of India, Africa, Polynesia or Australasia and so they destroyed and slaughtered and stole, they humilated and squeezed to gain the maximum advantage. They destroyed language and culture and took from hundreds of millions ofpeople dignity and self respect. As the Pictish king Calgacus is supposed to have said while addressing his people about another brutal and rapacious empire before the battle of Mons Graupius towards the end of the first century AD... they came to (my words) “to ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace”.

Because of my belief’s, my love of this world and all who and what lives in it, I find it to be a contradiction and a betrayal of myself, humanity, other forms of life and my world as a whole if I gave to my country the blind loyalty that itoften demands to serve in its interests. I cannot be a patriot. I am simply incapable of acting or expounding the demands of such a philosophy. Patriotism I believe as Samuel Johnson said that “Partiotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel” and with this I can’t help but agree. If I am a patriot of any kind, I am a patriot in the sense of the word whcih existed during the time of the 18th century Enlightment.. that I give myself to humanity and the world as best I am able and wish no harm to any. I would not, could not give my life in defence of country, certainly not in a cause in which I do not believe, nor could I act in such a way as would sacrifice that which I hold most dear. I was raised to be true to myself. Patriotism and my adherence to it as it is thought of today would be a sacrifice I am not prepared to make.

Humanity, life on earth, this world, compassion, pacifism, and the political dream I have are the things I hold most dear. Adherence to a patriotic endeavour in the name of narrow national interest, whether it be peaceful or otherwould be a betrayal of all I hold most dear. When my country does good things on behalf of its people at home, and which do not impinge on the good of other peoples abroad I am among the first to applaud, and when it does good abroad in an altruistic manner, or even for the common good of allthen I too am happy and proud. However all to often the activities of my country, and by my country I mean its ruling elite, its business class, its institutions including its military, make me feel shame for by their actions great harm is brought to other peoples and to the world.

When I disagree with something I say so and act as I think best in accordance with my beliefs and principles. As a person of conscience I can do no other. I do not support my country when it acts against things in which I believe. I have never supported my country’s armed forces abroad when acting in a manner which is contradictory to my beliefs, and that includes Iraq and Afghanistan, the Falkland Islands, or any conflict which endangers human and other forms of life. I have stood against it and will do so when called upon to do so again. As a pacifist I could and will do no other.This has often gained for me much approbation and contempt, and no doubt will do so again. I have long accepted that what I believe is not view of the vast majority of human beings, but I hold to it, believing it to be right and morally just.

My beliefs do not preclude me from fearing for those who put themselves in danger for a cause in which I do not believe and could never offer support. It makes me the more certain that my view is right. One of my greatest hopes is that all who live and work in a danger zone are brought home safely, and that those who are native to those zones are able finally to live their lives in peace and prosperity. I can and do respect any who put their lives in danger for a cause in which they believe, even servicemen and women, whose purpose I hate, and grieve like any other for any who die in the course of their duties. I grieve at the waste, and the loss our world has suffered and more immediately the suffering and loss to those closest to the men and women who lose their lives. I grieve for the maimed, and the awful suffering they will endure. I am not immune to tragedy and have often had tears streaming down my face at the apalling waste which war causes, both in terms of lives lost and ruined, as well as the appaling waste of valuable resources which could have and should have been used for more humanitarian and beneficial purposes.

Our world has been torn apart for centuries in the name of patriotism. Men and women have died in the hundreds of millionsand many more ruined, all in the name of patriotism in one form or other. Men and women march and kill and maim and act in a barbarous manner to other human beings all in the name of patriotism. For love of country, or religion, or cause. Men and women act with ferocious zeal and butcher each other in the name of patriotism, often patriotism for a cause with which they disagree or hate, often acting in such a manner as to negate all of their own beliefs and principles and the compassion with which they were raised or which was natural to them. Patriotism has the ability turn human beings into monsters of ugliest and the worst kind.

No. Patriotism is not something I could ever believe in or act in defence of. Love my country with a passion as I do, I can never support it when I believe it to be wrong. I have much too much self respect for that and I love my world and its well being far too deeply. For the good of my world I may be prepared to lay down life.. never in the name of patriotism..

[still_shy]

I agree. Would rather be a patriot in the purest sense of the word, than any. Very well said.

[justafriend]

An eloquent but somewhat misguided post. I don't have the time or inclination to type such a long and academic post so I'll keep it short and stick to current events. I never believed in the Iraq war but Afghanistan is a different story. Al Quaeda and Bin Ladin had entrenched themselves in that country and were a direct threat the the safety and well being of Americans. 3000 dead Americans and a hole in the ground in NYC proves that, As a pacifist what would you do? Huddle in a circle and discuss the misguided course of patriotism through history and wait for the next hit. The world is a dangerous place and if you are unwilling or unable to defend yourself you wind up like the poor people in Darfur or other African countries or the occupied countries during the Second World War etc. I respect true pacifism to some degree although the word pacify kinda grates on me.. War is a terrible thing but it is greatly underrated. It won us (USA) our freedom in the American Revolution. It saved Europe from Hitler and Tojo in World War II. It would solve the Darfur crisis and it would have solved the Rwandan genocide although the world would rather see mass murder of innocent people than do anything about it. I said I respect true pacifism to a degree but too often it is just an academic arguement or just a mechanism for cowards to hide behind the courage of others.

[Annika L]

An eloquent but somewhat misguided post. I don't have the time or inclination to type such a long and academic post so I'll keep it short and stick to current events. I never believed in the Iraq war but Afghanistan is a different story. Al Quaeda and Bin Ladin had entrenched themselves in that country and were a direct threat the the safety and well being of Americans. 3000 dead Americans and a hole in the ground in NYC proves that, As a pacifist what would you do? Huddle in a circle and discuss the misguided course of patriotism through history and wait for the next hit. The world is a dangerous place and if you are unwilling or unable to defend yourself you wind up like the poor people in Darfur or other African countries or the occupied countries during the Second World War etc. I respect true pacifism to some degree although the word pacify kinda grates on me.. War is a terrible thing but it is greatly underrated. It won us (USA) our freedom in the American Revolution. It saved Europe from Hitler and Tojo in World War II. It would solve the Darfur crisis and it would have solved the Rwandan genocide although the world would rather see mass murder of innocent people than do anything about it. I said I respect true pacifism to a degree but too often it is just an academic arguement or just a mechanism for cowards to hide behind the courage of others.

Yes, war clearly *can* solve a problem, but solving one problem with another seems a misguided (to use a term you like) course when there are alternatives.

But saying that war saved Europe from Hitler is a bit like saying that the peach eats you...it was Hitler's war to lose, and the fact that he lost it had to do with mismanagement on his part, and us discovering the bomb faster than he did. Really, my operative point here is that Hitler would have done much better and accomplished more, had he been a pacifist, no?

Finally, on a linguistic note: pacifist does not come from pacify, as in "a pacifist is one who pacifies"...rather, both words derive from "peace". A pacifist is simply one who believes in peace...that problems can be solved best without resorting to violence.

[ghytifrdnr]

Fran, I once heard that a patriot is a person who loves their land and people and will do what is necessary to protect and defend them, while a nationalist is a person who loves their government and will do whatever it tells them.

With that in mind, take a second look at those who call themselves patriots.

:2cents:

[FalconAngel]

As an American, a descendant of the first American Patriots, and a veteran, I have this to say about patriotism;

A patriot looks out for his country and it's citizens' best interest and the protection of a long-standing philosophy that it is built on. A patriot stands for equality and freedom for all citizens. A patriot is a dissenter when even the government is wrong.

This nation was built on dissent, a love of freedom and the protection of those rights that we are supposed to enjoy, as laid out in the Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America, as well as the Constitution of the United States of America and it's amendments.
(read it here - http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm and here - http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html for those that are unfamiliar with it, such as our friends overseas)

I know that, as a soldier, I did not swear fealty to my country, but to the Constitution. My oath as a soldier requires me to protect it from "all invaders; foreign and domestic", which means that I am bound by that oath to take action when someone within my country tries to take action against it, either by violating the constitutional rights of others on a grand scale (amendment 2 in FL and Prop 8 in CA) or should a foreign government take action of a more hostile nature against us.

A patriot believes in a principle that is greater than himself and an ideal that is greater than even his own life. In America, a Patriot, a true Patriot defends the rights of everyone......even those he/she does not agree with.

A patriot is always on the side of fairness and equality, never treats with traitors and will die in the cause of protecting the rights of others, if need be.

We have very few patriots these days. For 8 years, Patriotism has been called "going along with and supporting the government and it's actions". That is nothing like true patriotism.

The true patriots question the "official story" of 911 because it does not fit the facts. A true patriot questions the integrity of people in government that say "if you disagree with me, then you are un-American" or some other such nonsense.

We need more patriots, such as those of us that think like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. We have so very few in power and the ones that are in power are mostly silenced by a corrupt majority who are working for their own interests above the interests of this nation. Those, that are the silencing majority should be tried as traitors and executed. Those that fund any piece of legislature that removes the rights of, or minimizes any group should be tried as traitors as well.

Sometimes it seems that so very few people have actually read our founding documents and fewer, still, actually understand them.

We need more patriots and less sheep.

[void()]

I think ...

Oh bother Fran, why must you insist upon such dreadfully silent waters in which to delve?

Give me a moment to don a wet suit, old chap aches from such depths in the past.

We are not truly debating being at peace and being patriots here. Now, this is my thoughts upon the issues. Fran has been kind enough to share hers, I respect hers, though find another candle in the darkness. What I see as the crux of the debate is peace versus war.

And from my grasp of the word war, it derives from ancient Phoenician or Ugaric with a meaning 'today' of -- get more cattle. Prior to the word's existence we (as in all of humanity) did not bother with cattle, or other livestock I'd wager. There may have been nomadic tribes which kept wolves that aided in hunts, or perhaps lions, even snakes or hawks. But none settled until agriculture came to be. On the Western front it seems Sumeria birthed agriculture, Eastern front I'm not quite yet sure.

Why agriculture?

Grow nice grass for these tasty four legged things that go moo, along a river. "They eat grass, maybe we ought to as well?"

"This is called rice, this wheat ..."

But yet to this very day you may venture into the deserts with Bedouin and still yet stand looking skyward at pretty dots blinking, not blinking. Do these nomads care of the names of those lights? Not one bit. Who needs all this damnable knowledge? It merely serves to divide us all. Correct me if I err, but didn't the Crown adopt this from the Romans as a strategy?

And of course the Roman adopted all cultures into itself. No wonder America is a New Rome. "Give me your poor, your tired, your downtrodden ..." We had such a great Dream once. Speaking of ideas, this one bears similarity with Fran's in many ways. This Dream America had, that now lies crushed under rubble foundations of all these other ideas, fear, rage.

With all those cattle you need all the land you can get. And to maintain the land you'll need lots of laborers. Keep these laborers in line or they'll get wise and reject the elite as a yoke to bear, and rightly only do for themselves.

Now, to some current issues. Terrorist struck us on 9/11/2001?

Perhaps they did, perhaps they were of different religious creeds, ethnicity or nation, perhaps they were not. All I know is the damn U.S. Media certainly spread a message of fear issued by our own government as a mandate from on high. There was no escaping the rallies of "protect yourself from terrorists! Kill all visitors from other countries!" Terrorists? Indeed.

My supervisor at work lamented New King George being dethroned. "Oh, we'll be slaughtered wholesale by the big bad wolf terrorists, now! We need more war in Afghanistan to stop them!"

Quick lesson for you about cattle and cash crops. Oil is a cash crop, and is called black gold. There is another crop that shares the title of black gold, opium. And this is used widely in the United States, sometimes legally, sanely and safely, correctly ... most of the time not. Religion is an opiate for the masses. Well, why not just pipe opium into all those laborers directly and be done? Surely they ache from all their labor, they'll love the elite for offering them relief, or perceived relief. "Just don't tell them it kills them off."

Up until 2000 Afghanistan's primary export resource was opium, and yes it was pretty much a direct funnel to the U.S.. Then the Taliban came in and decided to put their laborers to better work, perhaps even more enlightened work for the sake of humanity. They wanted to grow other crops, soy, rice, tea. When our soldiers enter a community there, they destroy these crops and set the farmers back to growing opium.

Nestle Corp did much the same in a part of Brazil in 1996. They wanted the land some natives happened to be on. Nestle needed the land to grow coca for its chocolate. They recruited U.S. trained death squads and in essence deleted the natives. However, some of the natives had fore wisdom enough to leave the land prior to the extermination. They marched over 1,000 miles to a morbid cadence, arriving at the capitol steps. As they had marched they had disemboweled themselves, the cadence drum ceased to beat upon the steps of the capitol. That was a peaceful if gruesome and powerful statement to the death squads and their employers, though it was for naught.

"Why do they hate us?" You really need to ask?

Much as I admire Thomas Jefferson, he is quoted as suggesting we need a good healthy war every 150 years or so. I strongly disagree.

And there is the principle of self defense, if that is all it is. I do not disagree with defending oneself. I disagree with murder being murder, though. And war is nothing if not murder. Violence is not the only solution. It should remain as the last one attempted.

Patriot, me? Fran, I have to concur with your views. Seems we lost a Dream somewhere under all the jingoism. Too late to apologize and give it another go?

[darkeyes]

Soz Voltie..another little dip inta deep, silent and muddied waters.. just to try and filter them and make them a little more clear.;)

I have never claimed that humanity is ready for pacifism. As such I am not discussing pacifism, but patriotism. Pacifism is but a part of what I believe in, yet it is certainly an important part. When considering the situations in Afghanistan or Iraq, or any other conflict on this earth, it is possible actively participate as a combatatant without being a patriot. Many who fight, lived and died in conflicts throughout history did not do so not because they were patriots, but believed sincerely in the justice of the cause for which they fought. It is possible to be militant and non pacifist and yet be no patriot. It is not a course I could choose, yet can respect any who bravely risk life and limb for a cause in which they believe. I may dislike the methods employed, and hate the death and destruction, but can understand and have some respect for the courage those who decide that armed struggle, be it war on behalf of cause or country, is the way to achieve their ends. Many of course are not patriots though they claim to be.. and the worst of these are many of those who sit back and send people do die on their behalf, to maintain and increase their wealth and power, by appealing to their patriotism and sense of loyalty to country or cause.

Never confuse a pacifist with somone lacking courage. The two are not necessarily compatible. Indeed it is more usual that pacifsts simply to survive the rigours of public and official condemnation are invariably very brave. Throughout history, pacifists of one kind or other have risked and laid down their lives rather than succumb to the call to conform and kill other human beings. Many combatants owe their lives to pacifists, unarmed, who saved many of them on battlefields, or who sheltered them from discovery by their enemy's military or police, and in doing so risked not only their own lives but those of their families and loved ones. Many sacrificed their lives doing just those things. Of course there will be some pacifists who are cowardly, but no more than there are many within the general population, and I include the military in that. Many who have egged nation states to war, or responsible for it, but sat on their backsides while others did the dying, have been and are as cowardly as the soldier who flees because courage failed, or the one who preaches pacifism to save his or her own skin. No sector of the population is immune to a failure of courage and a lack of moral fibre.

Wherever there is conflict, there is patriotism paying seedily on the emotions and loyalties of those who fight and die. Certainly in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, there were and are evil doings. Saddam and the Taliban were not attacked for reasons of selfless endeavour to free the oppressed peoples of Iraq or Afghanistan. They were and are fought for the ego of one man, the self interest of several nations, and in part holy war. Islam is not the only religion which has unscrupulous men running the show and proclaiming Jihad and evil empire. Events have shown that Iraq was fought based on, at best, false information, though more than likely lies, and Afghanistan on vendetta, which is at least understandable if hardly laudable. To fight those wars, the US appealed to base patriotism and the need for revenge, as indeed did Blair in the UK especially once the troops were on their way to both countries.

Most servicemen and terrorists, freedom fighters, call them what you will all fight in one way or another in the name of patriotism. Innocents die by car or suicide bomb in the name of patriotism. Those who fight or terrorise and bomb are not necessarily patriots, yet die in the cause because patriotism is used by the powerful, wicked and unscrupulous elite to encourage and cajole others to die for their accumulation and retention of power. This applies as equally to Al Qaeda or the Taliban as it does to any government.


Let me turn to the specific instance of war creating the USA. What else was the American Revolution but a reaction of colonial people to the stupid decisions of powerful men.. the British ruling elite. Thousands died on both sides, because rich and powerful vested interests wished to retain those interests and absolute control over them and the colonies' own emergent elite wished geater control over those interests on behalf of themselves. Had the two sides used an ounce of common sense and considered the tragedy which was sure to follow, the war would never have happened and while I doubt the USA would forever remain a group of colonies it would without doubt have taken a much different turn, and had a very different history. Indeed, it is quite possible that the USA may have included include the Canadian provinces as states today but for that war, or that a very different political make up of North America would now exist from that we know now. Yet consider this point... what happened to the United States after the war, when it was established as a nation? It immediately found itself in thrall to its own emerging ruling elite, with its own vested interests running the country in furtherance of their own ends at the expense of the great mass of its ordinary citizens. In time the elite took the USA to Civil War. More rich and powerful men appealing to patriotism to defend their own interests by enlisting and sacrificing thousands of human lives.

In the case of Germany and Adolf Hitler, had the allies taken Woodrow Wilson's advice and not enforced crippling reparations on the Weimar Republic, it is less likely that Hitler would have come to power in the first place. Had rich and powerful men not supported Hitler to save their position, it is also less likely, and had foriegn business interests, controlled by rich and powerful men not provided the finance to support Hitler's reconstruction and re-armament programmes, World War 2 would have been much less likely. All if's, but important ones, for because the rich and powerful elites of many nations took such fateful decisions in defence of their own position and power, we would live in a far different world. World War 2 was never inevitable although history may appear to tell us differently. It could have been avoided by different decisions being taken at different times by people who were not interested in personal or national self interest, but in the good of all mankind.

The story of Imperial Japan is much different but in the end, the same applies. Different decisions at different times could have retained peace, for no war is inevitable. This is true of almost if not any war. It is not however, in the interests of the ruling elites always to avoid war, and so to achieve their ends, they persuade us our way of life is threatened, and appeal to our patriotism and loyalty to our homeland and values, when what they really mean is their values and their way of life.

Pacifism and patriotism are not necessarily exclusive from each other. One can be a patriot and yet believe like me that their pacifsim means they must take a stand against the actions of the Government and the conflict which the nation finds itself. They believe it to be in the interests of their country which they love at often least as passionately as me or any soldier. My stand would be because I believed my country wrong in the name of humanity..not just the nation and its people. In my case they are excusive from one another for while I love my country, I love life, not my life although it is something I do have a certain affection for, but all life and my world more.

We as citizens are expected to be in thrall to our political masters, and to do as we are bid, whether we believe it right or wrong. A wrong is a wrong, and no amount of persuasion can persuade me otherwise, and because my country and my government is often wrong, and when it comes to war, in my opinion morally wrong at all times, my sense of humanity and justice can not make me do other than my integrity and my beliefs allow. Patriotism is in my view morally unjustifiable, for it impresses upon people a morality and and forces them to act contrary to their sense of morality. It compromises the integrity of human beings.

.. and finally just to correct one misunderstanding. Patriotism is a tool of Nationalism. The two are almost inextricably linked. Nationalists the world over use patriotism as a means to beat up on other alien people, within and without the country. I am no nationalist, but an internationalist who believes that all people should work together to make a better world and that no people is superior to another. Neither patriotism or nationalism are compatible with that view. Their very essence is indeed contrary to it, and bring about the worst and most base instincts of our species. They are tools of those elites of which I speak to attain and retain their power and influence over our lives and our world.

[_Joe_]

I'm in traffic and read this on iPhone and thought " someone hijacked darkeyes account! I can read it!"

[darkeyes]

I'm in traffic and read this on iPhone and thought " someone hijacked darkeyes account! I can read it!"

Me has a lil funny turn sumtimes Joe..don worry it'll soon pass:tong:

[darkeyes]

I think ...

Oh bother Fran, why must you insist upon such dreadfully silent waters in which to delve?.........

Patriot, me? Fran, I have to concur with your views. Seems we lost a Dream somewhere under all the jingoism. Too late to apologize and give it another go?

Cos me a lite hearted kinda girl Voidie who has this lil serious side 2 'er wich keeps gettin up the noses a peeps..an am an opinionated lil cow who jus cant keep 'er gob, cyber or real...zipped... cos the world shud kno that ther r otha views than the staid ole certainties an beliefs wich keep slappin the world in the face an creatin such misery... in short.. jus lettin peeps know that not every 1 thinks that will continue foreva... so inta the deep we go...

...an dreams Voidie?? Me has neva lost me dreams.. they mite or mite not cum 2 pass.. but me will neva kno that... but do me lil bit 2 make sure that the world knos that its still possible 2 dream.... wen me loses me dreams Voidie... me will b dead.... but othas will share me dreams..an othas will hav ther own.. dreamers dream...an in time.. many a these dreams becum reality... an then its time for us 2 begat new dreams.... cos wen humanity stops dreamin.. then humanity 2... is dead....

... no need forya 2 apologise hun..jus give it a go...;):)

..an its me that shud apologise..called ya Voltie...eeeek!!!:eek:

[void()]

Well Fran, you remind me of Diogenes. He was asked once where he lived. He replied that he was a citizen of the world.

And I agree with you on the wealthy using those without wealth as cannon fodder. Never have believed pacifists to be cowards. Reminded of a quote by a Native American tribesman, Chief Redcloud. "Courage is not having no fear but realizing there are more important things than the fear."

Dreams are partly why I am going to see a psychiatrist on the morrow. Have lost sight of mine due to disinterest, from being of those in the have not category. We, our family here, are folks who always do without but we continue to do. Think I'm probably the worst of the lot, too. Always tear myself up for not feeling adequate, or invisible. Have issues accepting things beyond my control.

That leaves dreams in a back seat. One I would love seeing realized is global peace. May as well shoot the moon. We could also end global hunger and disease, provide truly free education.

Different views in the world, huh? No, hell no, you got to be kidding me! :cutelaugh :rotate: I would have never imagined there were other views in the world. Gee, me reading Flatland and Carlos Castanada, richard Bach, Book of Five Rings, Golden Bough, Treatises of Natural Majik, and other various odd sorted sundry and insane literature ... nah, never would see the forest for the trees. Oh yeah and getting perma :stoned: didn't help either.

Hope that psychiatrist doesn't say hi and commit me all in the same breath. :)

When I served in the navy we had an expression. "You're a damn rock, drop!" Usually it meant we ended up doing push-ups for doing something dumb. But it also meant that you were someone your mates could depend on, no matter what came at you. At least you'd sink every time. :)

Rocks are dense that way, they keep muddling through. Somebody asked why once. "Rocks get lots of hope, if nothing else in life." And that's another part of the visit to the 'doc. Hope is great commodity. But it doesn't pay bills, doesn't bring satisfaction in many aspects of life.

And talking about all this along with a few other things, really doesn't offer any help. "Get it off your chest, at least you can feel good about the effort."

Read another good quote, "childhood ends when one realizes telling another their troubles doesn't solve them." Much as I'd love to remain a Pan, seems I've gained some wings. No idea where to fly to.

I get quite bored very quickly. Just the nature of me, learn something well enough to get by and want something else to learn, progression. But the nest keeps swallowing me, or at least clipping the wings. Damned to do, damned to not do.

And don't apologize to me, Voltie probably needs that. Don't much care what I'm called, so long as it isn't late for a meal. Have probably been called far worse than anything anyone here could dare imagine, by better or worse folks even.

So, guess I seem plumb on the bubble with you Fran. Now, let's you and I start a revolution of Sporks and hugs. Everyone gets a Spork and a hug, with instructions to pass the hug on to three other folks and give them the same instructions. If everyone runs around hugging each other, bet War would no longer exist. Idealistic? Probably, but a person can dream. :)

[curious44]

Falconangel,
You sure have have your head screwed on right. And thank you for your service to our country. There's a famous quote, I can't remember who said it or how it goes right now but it's something like, "Countries survive because good men are willing to do the killing".
If you were closer I'd buy you a drink or two.

[darkeyes]

Falconangel,
You sure have have your head screwed on right. And thank you for your service to our country. There's a famous quote, I can't remember who said it or how it goes right now but it's something like, "Countries survive because good men are willing to do the killing".
If you were closer I'd buy you a drink or two.awwww.. yas not persuaded...:(;)

[hudson9]

Oh my God -- an intelligent thread, with civil discourse!!

DarkEyes -- I know you love to use your usual, shall I call it patois? But you're so much easier to read this way, and you have such insightful things to say! -- Well, maybe that's just me...

The problem with war is that it is always just a short-term solution. When the Bushies were planning to bomb & invade Afghansitan, I prayed we would just bomb them w/ food and blankets. Imagine the reaction we could have gotten from the world -- and the Afghanis? How that would have changed the conversation? (Yes, I understand what happened on 9/11, personally.)

As my time at the moment is limited, I will just leave with a few quotes:

"Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948)
"I have known war as few men now living know it. It's very destructiveness on both friend and foe has rendered it useless as a means of settling international disputes."
- Douglas MacArthur
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"
- Gandhi

[darkeyes]

Oh my God -- an intelligent thread, with civil discourse!!

DarkEyes -- I know you love to use your usual, shall I call it patois? But you're so much easier to read this way, and you have such insightful things to say! -- Well, maybe that's just me...

The problem with war is that it is always just a short-term solution. When the Bushies were planning to bomb & invade Afghansitan, I prayed we would just bomb them w/ food and blankets. Imagine the reaction we could have gotten from the world -- and the Afghanis? How that would have changed the conversation? (Yes, I understand what happened on 9/11, personally.)

As my time at the moment is limited, I will just leave with a few quotes:

"Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948)
"I have known war as few men now living know it. It's very destructiveness on both friend and foe has rendered it useless as a means of settling international disputes."
- Douglas MacArthur
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"
- GandhiGod Huddie..me luffs u...:bigrin:

[macman885]

I agree with most on this thread that war should be avoided if at all possible but to deny that sometimes it is not possible to avoid war is extremely naive.
We live in a dangerous world. There are people out there who want to kill us simply because we are who we are, not because we have wronged them in any way. We need to be ready to defend ourselves and retaliate against any attack. That being said, I must say that I admire those who stick to their non-violent beliefs no matter what the consequences, they are much more noble than I am capable of.

I usually go for REVENGE.

However if pacifists are willing to die rather than fight to remain true to their pacifism it seems that we will soon run out of pacifists.

[NWMtnHawk]

What an outstanding read this thread is! Great food for thought; and Fran, thank you so very much for speaking plain English on such a serious subject and personal belief, I could never have plodded through it in "Franspeak", lol. Don't get me wrong Franspeak is fine for day to day back and forth dilly dallying, but on something this intense and profound, . . . naw. I will read and re-read and ponder the incredibly intelligent and well thought out comments, views, and opinions of a number of you in this thread for days.
P.S. FalconA, once again, . . . ditto what you said.

[void()]

"to deny that sometimes it is not possible to avoid war is extremely naive."

Agreed. I haven't denied it. Although to make a point, consider how demoralizing it is to wantonly slaughter people who smile and offer no resistance. These people you slaughter have already won. They are free and nothing or no one on the planet can deny that or take it away from them. It is what U.S. soldiers faced in Vietnam, too. How do you engage an enemy that will not fight? Some might call it murder.

But you're correct, we do live in a dangerous world and in defense of self ought to have the right to do what is needed for protection. There is a counterpoint here though. What is needed? And further, is it really for protection? Beyond that you wind up seeing folks become too overzealous. Violence begets violence. It needs to stop. You kill me for killing your brother, my sister kills you for killing me. Old Japanese expression, bury an enemy? Dig two graves, one for the enemy and one for yourself.

The cows will graze atop the bodies interned under the pastures. By all means, get more cattle. Gives new meaning to "holy cow, man!"

[Sarasvati]

Without the wars of the past this very thread would not be possible. Those preaching pacifism (while waving cleavers) should hurry to the graves of the "unknown soldiers" and give gratitude.

If you are currently living in Somalia do you have the luxury of preaching pacifism? I doubt it. You'd better tool up and join the pirates.

We, who are alive, are all descended from people and societies which at some point in history triumphed in victory in war. None of us fortunately are among the numbers of the Gepids for example. War forges historical change.

There is no escape from the reality of war. We either accept our responsibilty to shape our environment to our will or we surrender this role to others who may not have our interests at heart.

The offspring of which of us are destined like the East European Jews 100 years ago to face a holocaust?

I pray that mine (or yours) won't be among them but many will face such horrors.

If the economic depression is very deep then that risk is very high. If we can regain mastery over our economic climate we can avert such a calamity.

But no matter what war is ineluctable. To not be aware of this is a delusion of luxury that is one of the misfortunes of liberalism.

Those who want socialism and pacifism - there is nothing stopping you from grouping yourselves together and setting up your community now. You don't need to wait for a green light from government, you just get on with it yourselves.

Just how long will it take for it all to unravel, I wonder.

[darkeyes]

Without the wars of the past this very thread would not be possible. Those preaching pacifism (while waving cleavers) should hurry to the graves of the "unknown soldiers" and give gratitude.

If you are currently living in Somalia do you have the luxury of preaching pacifism? I doubt it. You'd better tool up and join the pirates.

We, who are alive, are all descended from people and societies which at some point in history triumphed in victory in war. None of us fortunately are among the numbers of the Gepids for example. War forges historical change.

There is no escape from the reality of war. We either accept our responsibilty to shape our environment to our will or we surrender this role to others who may not have our interests at heart.

The offspring of which of us are destined like the East European Jews 100 years ago to face a holocaust?

I pray that mine (or yours) won't be among them but many will face such horrors.

If the economic depression is very deep then that risk is very high. If we can regain mastery over our economic climate we can avert such a calamity.

But no matter what war is ineluctable. To not be aware of this is a delusion of luxury that is one of the misfortunes of liberalism.

Those who want socialism and pacifism - there is nothing stopping you from grouping yourselves together and setting up your community now. You don't need to wait for a green light from government, you just get on with it yourselves.

Just how long will it take for it all to unravel, I wonder.U r a big disappointment 2 me S... ya jus hav no vision of a betta world or faith that in time we can make it much much betta than we hav now.. seems this is as gud as it gets.. ya seem 2 think we will always b shits.. well hun.. am glad 2 say thats not how me c's it... an feel rite pity forya bein so pessimistic...:(

.. but don u worry..me has moren enuff faith for both of us...:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Sometimes I get a little pee's off when people take what I say as meanin things are possible now. My arguments about pacifism, and patriotism, socialism and many other issues are things I believe will happen in the future long after I am gone and forgotten. Thats what dreams, and ideals are about. What is to come. Some are reachable now, but most are unreachable until long in the future.

I live my life as best I can according to my beliefs and principles. I am not infallible and there are times I let myself down. Yet I spend much of my life arguing for fundamental change in many things, knowing that so many, for now, are out of reach, but that by arguing for changes which I believe are necessary, and doing what I can to achieve that change, I make a tiny contribution to the advancement of our kind and hopefully toward a better world. Knowing so much is slow and very haphazard I know my dreams are just that..dreams... but knowing a little history I know that real and fundamental change is possible. Our attitudes and the way we live our lives are very different from a century ago, and attitudes then were a far cry from those which existed in the middle ages and human wrought change has been ongoing since the dawn of human awareness. It will continue as long as we are able to think.

So please.. when I say things will not happen in my lifetime and beyond, answer me in that spirit. Do not accept that we shall always be as we are for history tells us that quite simply we shall not. Humanity has made sufficient progress throughout its sentient history for us to be pretty damn sure that if we survive, we will continue to change and progress. Do not deny your own kind its potential, for in doing so you join the ranks of those throughout history fought tooth and nail to deny our ancestors the right to free will and progress to a life with dignity.

I do not have a clue what will and will not come to pass of those things in which I believe. I simply believe in many ways as those who believe in a God or gods believe.. I have faith in our species.. unshakeable absolute faith. In time I have no doubt some things in which I believe will prove as stupid and ridiculous as any past theories and beliefs, because humanity will advance and outstrip anything any of us can dream up and wiill be reaching for something far and away superior to anything which has gone before. It is what our kind has always done, often in the face of doubt, ridicule and of brutal suppression. It is what it will always do as long as it retains the capacity to think.

[coyotedude]

Just wanted to throw out one of my all-time favorite quotes, attributed to Pablo Casals, the Catalan (Spanish) cellist:

The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?

To me, that sort of sums it all up...

Peace

[darkeyes]

Just wanted to throw out one of my all-time favorite quotes, attributed to Pablo Casals, the Catalan (Spanish) cellist:

The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?

To me, that sort of sums it all up...

PeaceNeva heard the quote Dude hun..but rest assured will def memba it... ta me luffly..:bigrin: