Information Regarding the "Wall Street Bail Out Plan"

[12voltman59]

As usual--thanks to often less than steallar and clear reporting in much of the media---It is not exactly clear what is meant by this "buyout plan" being pushed by US Treasury Secretary Paulson and the Bush Administration now being considered by Congress.

From what I have gathered--and I am no economist--an area of study that really flumoxed me in school----while it is most distasteful to have such a huge plan that some are deriding as "socialism"----we really seem to have no choice since the apparent alternative of some plan of this nature--- is the total meltdown of our financial system and then the rest of the economy--one major failing of the plan as proposed--it has no provisions to put into place the necessary controls on the markets to prevent what got us to this point from happening again---

Oh well---enough editorializing---I am going to put up a series of links on articles and such relating to this plan---pro and con---if you have the time--go through them and try to make up your own mind about it----

http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/text-bail-out-act-congress-take-action-now

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/sep/23/wallstreet.banking

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/23/bailout-plan-not-acceptab_n_128728.html?page=9&show_comment_id=16021135#comment_16021135

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080922.htm

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13704.html

http://www.blueoregon.com/2008/09/the-administrat.html

http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/palins-bailout-statement-raises-questions/

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/22/kill-the-bailout-will-the-real-fiscal-conservatives-please-stand-up/

Wow-one of the CEOs of the failed financial institutions forgoes his major compensation "golden parachute" package according to Fortune Magazine story:

http://dailybriefing.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/category/bailouts/

I will do one more bit of editorializing----I am so sick of these "free marketeer" types----it is pure 100 percent USDA prime Bull Hockey Pucks that we have ever had a truly "Free Market" in this nation or anywhere else in this world---the big money interests always have used the government to make their profit taking possible and to protect them so they could plunder at will--they would not really know how to act with a totally free market--they always want some sort of subsidies for their products and/or industries and also imposition of tariffs and trade restrictions on things that come from other nations-----such has always been the case----Just one more case of major myth making!!! We still have tons of trade restrictions, tariffs, subsidies and the like even with things like NAFTA and the WTO---FREE MARKET--MY Big fat white pimply arse!!

The 'Free Market' is sorta like sightings of the Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, or UFOS--lots of anecdotal evidence, but no hard proof it exists!!

In the times we have gotten the closest to "free markets" in the US--we had situations like the Robber Barons and the Glided Age, we had horrible working and pay conditions for workers that were barely better than slavery, we had the Great Depression and we may yet have another "Great Depression" that will make the last one look like a garden party thanks to hands off capitalism gone amok!!!

[darkeyes]

Socialism Voltie?? Hardly...simply desperate capitalism in a panic propping itself up and trying to dig itself out of a hole.

[jamieknyc]

Socialism Voltie?? Hardly...simply desperate capitalism in a panic propping itself up and trying to dig itself out of a hole.

Even socialism, where it exists or did in the past, survived only because it was propped up by the capitalist nations.

[darkeyes]

Even socialism, where it exists or did in the past, survived only because it was propped up by the capitalist nations.

The difficulty with your statement Jamie is that nowhere, not the Soviet Union and its satellites, not Cuba and certainly not China past or present, did socialism ever exist... it is true that each had some, even quite a number of socialist touches, Cuba more than any, but so did and does my own country and many other nations around the world. There are even a few in your own...very few granted but they do exist... but socialism is an ideal and remains a long way off... its an ideal I believe in and bears no relation to that which you and many others around the world apparently think of as "socialism"..

[FalconAngel]

This bailout would not even be needed if our employees in Washington had not disassembled all of the mechanisms and regulations, which were put in place after the Great Depression, that were designed to prevent this from happening again.

But greed and money won out over the people and the country.

Welcome to the new Roman Empire.

[allbimyself]

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/587-The-Mother-Of-All-Frauds.html

[AFTER9]

Just wondering where we'd be if the plan for privatizing Social Security had gone thru?
It's bad enough having totally inadequate health insurance and now a tanking retirement plan.
I"m going to suggest bad as things are it could be worse.

[darkeyes]

This bailout would not even be needed if our employees in Washington had not disassembled all of the mechanisms and regulations, which were put in place after the Great Depression, that were designed to prevent this from happening again.

But greed and money won out over the people and the country.

Welcome to the new Roman Empire.Frances I, Queen of the 2cd Visigoth Empire has a nice ring 2 it....
even betta... Comrade Fran, 1st Secretary 2 the Visigoth Peoples Republic....
well we havta move wiv the times.... tee hee... poor wittle new Roman Empire...

[12voltman59]

The best discussion and dissection of the "bailout plan" has been expressed by Steven Pearlstein, Business Columnist for The Washington Post. I had seen him discussing this on MSNBC's "Hardball" last night and he was just on again with Matthews.

I won't post up any links to his online columns, because in order to gain access to them--you have to establish a free membership to the Washington Post website----if you are interested in learning more about this most important and critical situation---take the few minutes to join the Washington Post's site and read some of his recent columns written in recent days on this matter.

It is best to simply Google his name--that will bring you right to his name and such.

[vittoria]

This bailout would not even be needed if our employees in Washington had not disassembled all of the mechanisms and regulations, which were put in place after the Great Depression, that were designed to prevent this from happening again.

But greed and money won out over the people and the country.

Welcome to the new Roman Empire.


And here I thought the government didnt believe in welfare

O THATS RIGHT... they dont like welfare for the POOR and the artist formerly known as "MIDDLE CLASS"!!!

What is that saying, that if we dont learn from history we are DOOMED to repeat it? All the naysayers in DC said "badges??!?! we dont NEED no stinking BADGES!!" and away they went with everyone's fkkn money...

AND WE DAMN SURE DONT NEED THE MEDIA OR ANY OTHER PERSON ON THE AIRWAVES TO TELL US WE ARE IN A DEPRESSION--they only use the term "recession" cause they think it sounds better--... they are just too scaredy cat to admit it... they dont want a run on banks and shit all over again... but notice how slick the bastards are... they KNEW what would happen.. which is why they all are getting our hard earned money in the form of $40 million + pays and sh*t..just to assure that their sorry butts dont have to jump out of any windows!! ('Christmas?!? We dont need no stinking Christmas!'---Its Fetivas for the REST of us!!)

Its a damn shame the people in building "THEY" have made it so that we cant even fkkn GO anywhere(ie. escape tactics to Canada or Mexico) without a passport (HEY DUMMIES!! THE PATRIOT ACT NOT ONLY WORKS AGAINST THE ALLEGED TERRORISTS, BUT AGAINST THE COMMON AMURIKAN TOO!!) We are veritably imprisioned in this sh*thole.

Dammit Jim!

And we're supposed to "Have a Voice" via 'voting' eh? Lets see who wins THIS election... LOL!!

[MaybeSayMaybe]

How can you fix a problem that is caused by moral hazard by creating ever-greater amounts of moral hazard?

The real problem here is that the usual system of government for sale and corruption for sale has morphed into a particularly vile form of socialism for the rich, as in "heads we make $1 and tails the taxpayers lose $10 or $20". Or $100. We've created a monster here and it's racing around the room smashing all the furniture and windows. So what do we do - we hand the monster a drum of whiskey. Real smart.

It's not capitalism that is a failure - it's the lack of it.

[vittoria]

The real problem here is that the usual system of government for sale and corruption for sale has morphed into a particularly vile form of socialism for the rich, as in "heads we make $1 and tails the taxpayers lose $10 or $20". Or $100. We've created a monster here and it's racing around the room smashing all the furniture and windows. So what do we do - we hand the monster a drum of whiskey.

The visual is quite hilarious... I thought of the one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater myself...

However seriously tho, hasnt anyone noticed how fascinating it is that when there is a school levy that homeowner type taxpayers have to pay on... its VOTED ON BY THE TAXPAYER WHETHER THEY WANT TO DO IT OR NOT...

and its ODD that when the random acts of human in our government say "OH! the TAXPAYER will pay it!" its as if NO ONE even bothers to ask ANYONE who the fkk will do it and NOT ONE TAXPAYER votes on any of this crap!!! its not even brought up on a random act of tuesday voting at a local school or church or library for crying out loud!!

where did "we" go wrong? (Spocklike eyebrow raise)

[miamiuu]

My whole problem is understanding how all these supposed bad debt house investments that were made by investment banks actually affects the credit market with regular banks. Do all banks have bad investments in all the bad subprime housing debt? I have problems connecting the two together where the investment bank hooks up with the regular bank. Some of the arguments like if banks are not going to loan money as much it could have a negative affect on things like car loans hurting the car industry makes sense to me, but I need some better explanation with how what a regular bank does is affected by an investment bank. I do think the housing prices are way too high and the government should not keep the prices inflated. If the market demands lower houses than the value of the houses should go down with the market.

[darkeyes]

How can you fix a problem that is caused by moral hazard by creating ever-greater amounts of moral hazard?

The real problem here is that the usual system of government for sale and corruption for sale has morphed into a particularly vile form of socialism for the rich, as in "heads we make $1 and tails the taxpayers lose $10 or $20". Or $100. We've created a monster here and it's racing around the room smashing all the furniture and windows. So what do we do - we hand the monster a drum of whiskey. Real smart.

It's not capitalism that is a failure - it's the lack of it.
*rolls eyes in disgust* an sez..yea...rite..sure we dus..

[the mage]

Hello Everyone..I've not been here for months.
Sorry to check in to find your house is such a mess and you're bankrupt.

For you the regular guy, it is indeed too late. Buchco has done his job admirably and the middle class is wiped out.
It will get much worse people.
If you want real info check out sites like
Democracynow.org

and
Mediachannel.org

for some better perspective on your future.

Fight the corporations.....They are the real masters.

[HighEnergy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/dirty-secret-of-the-bailo_n_128294.html

No oversight? No one can look at, debate or change what the executive branch decides?

Goodbye democracy! Oh, wait, we never had it, it was a delusion, but it could get worse.

We need to take to the streets on this one before it's too late!

[chancesare]

I saw an interview with George Carlson a previously taped interview- and he couldn't have got it more right-when he talked about our freedoms and how when we try to stop other from our freedom (paraphrasing) when don't have any checks and balances and we close the gates on our own rights over and over again. Now here we have idiots bailing out the other idiots who take our money and run and don't mind doing it again. Privatize social security- yeh right, don't hold your breath about that money then, the idiots that are losing their jobs in these banking industries will be starting up another company (usa social security private crooks inc.) you want to stimulate the economy and bail out then bail out tax payer from 2003 to 2008 that either had to file bankruptcy or owned back taxes, then see how much money gets pumped back into our system and you don't have to pay any of those tax payors million dollars pensions for fcking up trying only to live.

[jamieknyc]

The difficulty with your statement Jamie is that nowhere, not the Soviet Union and its satellites, not Cuba and certainly not China past or present, did socialism ever exist... it is true that each had some, even quite a number of socialist touches, Cuba more than any, but so did and does my own country and many other nations around the world. There are even a few in your own...very few granted but they do exist... but socialism is an ideal and remains a long way off... its an ideal I believe in and bears no relation to that which you and many others around the world apparently think of as "socialism"..

Of course there was no such thing as a purely socialistic society, because socialistic entities require capitalist enterprise to support them. Perhaps the closest thing was an Israeli kibbutz, and even those survived only with government subsidies.

Britain was never a socialist society by any description, even during the era of nationalized industries.

[jamieknyc]

My whole problem is understanding how all these supposed bad debt house investments that were made by investment banks actually affects the credit market with regular banks. Do all banks have bad investments in all the bad subprime housing debt? I have problems connecting the two together where the investment bank hooks up with the regular bank. Some of the arguments like if banks are not going to loan money as much it could have a negative affect on things like car loans hurting the car industry makes sense to me, but I need some better explanation with how what a regular bank does is affected by an investment bank. I do think the housing prices are way too high and the government should not keep the prices inflated. If the market demands lower houses than the value of the houses should go down with the market.

Commercial banks became at risk in several ways: (1) by making the mortgage loans that are now going bad; (2) by holding huge quantities of the securities issued on the loans (most of which are sold to institutional investors), and (3) because in a panic, banks and other holders of assets flee to the most risk-free investments such as treasury securities and refuse to lend to borrowers. This is not a purely American thing, by the way: foreign banks are much more exposed to the subprime crisis that U.S. banks are.

You are right that housing prices are too high, but what is fueling the present crisis is the deflation of the housing market over the past few years. Some portion of the bad debt is going to end up as a complete loss because of declining real estate prices. According to yesterday's Wall Street Journal, Moody's estimates that at $250 billion.

[darkeyes]

Of course there was no such thing as a purely socialistic society, because socialistic entities require capitalist enterprise to support them. Perhaps the closest thing was an Israeli kibbutz, and even those survived only with government subsidies.

Britain was never a socialist society by any description, even during the era of nationalized industries.

Tee hee.. u an me on diff wavelengths gain Jamie... for a socialist society 2 survive an prosper it dus require capital..but not capitalism as u seem 2 undastand.. the capital it will use is the wit, imagination, resource an genius of its people 2 produce an prosper on behalf of all within that society.. 2 produce an reap the benefits.. socialism can neva b successful in isolation an for that reason it is essential for a huge international movement 2 ward achievin it, an sidesteppin an ultimately removin the materialistic capitalist society.. it will b a long hard slog 2 get ther...hav neva sed that we definately will get ther but like many of the things me rites bout in forums its a dream born outa an idealism wich is 2 close 2 me heart an am 2 committed 2 2 eva let go of the ideal... me a dreamer.. always hav been an me dreams r substantially wot makes me the person me is.. an who's 2 say summa me dreams won b realised in time...

An hav neva sed Britain wos socialist at ne time..did say..like many countries ther r quite a few socialist aspects 2 the way it looks afta its people an conducts its affairs.. an DID say even ya own has a few of those lil socialist touches in the way it dus its thing an all...

[nothings5d]

It failed. YAY!!!:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:

[FalconAngel]

They turned around and approved a variation of it.

Now we find out who voted for it and make sure that we vote against those people in the election.

[wolfcamp]

I see the economy as a system, like a car. You can't just start it up, drop a brick on the accelerator and let it go. It will surely crash into something. You need a reasonable and disciplined driver. You need fuel. You need speed limits, stop signs, and agreement on which lane to drive in. It needs traffic cops because there are some who flagrantly or naively break the rules. It also needs a group effort to build the roads and bridges.

The economy is very similar. It needs fuel in the form of real energy and investment. It needs guidance. It needs regulation to keep the scoundrels from pilfering the system.

[darkeyes]

Shouldn this thread b renamed "The Wall Street Balls Up Plan"?:bigrin:

[jamieknyc]

Tee hee.. u an me on diff wavelengths gain Jamie... for a socialist society 2 survive an prosper it dus require capital..but not capitalism as u seem 2 undastand.. the capital it will use is the wit, imagination, resource an genius of its people 2 produce an prosper on behalf of all within that society.. 2 produce an reap the benefits.. socialism can neva b successful in isolation an for that reason it is essential for a huge international movement 2 ward achievin it, an sidesteppin an ultimately removin the materialistic capitalist society.. it will b a long hard slog 2 get ther...hav neva sed that we definately will get ther but like many of the things me rites bout in forums its a dream born outa an idealism wich is 2 close 2 me heart an am 2 committed 2 2 eva let go of the ideal... me a dreamer.. always hav been an me dreams r substantially wot makes me the person me is.. an who's 2 say summa me dreams won b realised in time...

An hav neva sed Britain wos socialist at ne time..did say..like many countries ther r quite a few socialist aspects 2 the way it looks afta its people an conducts its affairs.. an DID say even ya own has a few of those lil socialist touches in the way it dus its thing an all...

You did not understand what I was saying. Socialism is an inherently undemocratic and statist ideology, and cannot exist unless it is subsidized by the capitalist world, because no one would live without freedom voluntarily.

[Bi-Zarro]

You did not understand what I was saying. Socialism is an inherently undemocratic and statist ideology, and cannot exist unless it is subsidized by the capitalist world, because no one would live without freedom voluntarily.

Umm.....no. Please read:

http://www.dsausa.org/pdf/TheoryPractice.pdf

[darkeyes]

You did not understand what I was saying. Socialism is an inherently undemocratic and statist ideology, and cannot exist unless it is subsidized by the capitalist world, because no one would live without freedom voluntarily.Jamie wot is me gonna do wivya??? Can't putya 'gainst a wall cos that's not nice..besides..me likes ya 2 much ne ways...an pacifists don do that sorta thing.. undastood ya all 2 well..am not a fool an ratha ya didn treat me like 1..

Socialism..the socialism of Marx is not undemocratic..it involves democratic control a the economy from the ground up.. ownership an the means a production in every 1's hands..not the top down.. is arguable that it aint workable..rite now no its not cos we not ready for it..but like many things it is an idea whose time me dreams will cum... a few short centuries ago no 1 wud hav believed we wud hav the rite 2 elect peeps 2 a parliament an a government through universal suffrage.. it came 2 pass an 'ere we r livin in a capitalist society wiv a lil touch a democracy..not much.. but sum... socialism is aimed at extendin that democracy 2 all..an not 2 a powerful elite who don give a sod bout ordinary peeps.. that may sound an ole fashioned idea a wot socialism is bout..but it remains its goal... am not sayin it will cum 2 pass.. but am a believer that sum day humanity will make moves an b mature enuff 2 cum close..or even devise summat betta..

..an need capitalism 2 thrive?? Socialism is international..its aim an that of all true socialists is for all a humanity 2 live in peace an harmony in a truly democratic world, wer power truly rests wiv the people an not wiv that rich an powerful elite... wer peeps decide on their every day lives on the ground an not dicats from faceless morons or self interested political and/or corporate arseholes like now... the wealth a humanity will b invested in humanity, an all will receive their share a that wealth..an no 1, like now, will b left 2 their own devices... ther will b no capitalism as u undastand it an NO capitalists....

Strike the vision a socialism wich wos put inta ya head by successive American governments, media an ya history books..put outa ya mind the "socialism" a Lenin, Stalin an Breznhev, the idiosyncracies a Mao an even the more progressive version as imposed by Castro.. an hav a gud laff at that buffoon in Venezuala...socialism is nunna these things, but an altogether more progressive an democratic creature about which I dream all 2 vividly... it may or may not cum 2 pass.. but it is an altogetha healthier an decent vision a humanities future than the crap wich capitalism currently offers...

Now me off for me tea... hav nice day an don get yasel inta ne more trubble... muah

[darkeyes]

Umm.....no. Please read:

http://www.dsausa.org/pdf/TheoryPractice.pdf

tee hee Biz.. u tell im..reckon e will read it??:tong:

[12voltman59]

Jaime--I have to respectfully disagree with your statement about people giving up their freedom voluntarily---elsewhere on the boards we have the thread regarding the memorials to "gays" who were killed by the Nazis--the Nazis taking power in the post WWI era took place in large part due to a massive capitulation of the people of Germany of their freedoms to the evils of that regime.

Look at the way people were here in the US in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks---jeez--all we need is one or two more attacks along the lines of 9/11 and in a rush to "be safe"---I bet a vast majority of Amercians would gladly give up even more of their freedoms in order to "be safe!!" We cut away a lot of our freedoms when we allowed our representatives to pass the USA PATRIOT ACT---while the powers that be have not taken too much advantage of what all is in there--at least to the mass body of folks---they sure can if or when they want to---

Ben Franklin must have foreseen such an occurance when he is purported to have said: "Those who would forfeit essential liberties for safety, deserve neither liberty or safety!"

[jamieknyc]

Jamie wot is me gonna do wivya??? Can't putya 'gainst a wall cos that's not nice..besides..me likes ya 2 much ne ways...an pacifists don do that sorta thing.. undastood ya all 2 well..am not a fool an ratha ya didn treat me like 1..

Socialism..the socialism of Marx is not undemocratic..it involves democratic control a the economy from the ground up.. ownership an the means a production in every 1's hands..not the top down.. is arguable that it aint workable..rite now no its not cos we not ready for it..but like many things it is an idea whose time me dreams will cum... a few short centuries ago no 1 wud hav believed we wud hav the rite 2 elect peeps 2 a parliament an a government through universal suffrage.. it came 2 pass an 'ere we r livin in a capitalist society wiv a lil touch a democracy..not much.. but sum... socialism is aimed at extendin that democracy 2 all..an not 2 a powerful elite who don give a sod bout ordinary peeps.. that may sound an ole fashioned idea a wot socialism is bout..but it remains its goal... am not sayin it will cum 2 pass.. but am a believer that sum day humanity will make moves an b mature enuff 2 cum close..or even devise summat betta..

..an need capitalism 2 thrive?? Socialism is international..its aim an that of all true socialists is for all a humanity 2 live in peace an harmony in a truly democratic world, wer power truly rests wiv the people an not wiv that rich an powerful elite... wer peeps decide on their every day lives on the ground an not dicats from faceless morons or self interested political and/or corporate arseholes like now... the wealth a humanity will b invested in humanity, an all will receive their share a that wealth..an no 1, like now, will b left 2 their own devices... ther will b no capitalism as u undastand it an NO capitalists....

Strike the vision a socialism wich wos put inta ya head by successive American governments, media an ya history books..put outa ya mind the "socialism" a Lenin, Stalin an Breznhev, the idiosyncracies a Mao an even the more progressive version as imposed by Castro.. an hav a gud laff at that buffoon in Venezuala...socialism is nunna these things, but an altogether more progressive an democratic creature about which I dream all 2 vividly... it may or may not cum 2 pass.. but it is an altogetha healthier an decent vision a humanities future than the crap wich capitalism currently offers...

Now me off for me tea... hav nice day an don get yasel inta ne more trubble... muah

Unlike you, I have actually read the works of Marx (who happens to be a relative of mine), and he did NOT believe in democracy.

[Bi-Zarro]

Unlike you, I have actually read the works of Marx (who happens to be a relative of mine), and he did NOT believe in democracy.

Yes, he did. He thought capitalism was a barrier to true democracy -- that's among the reasons why he wanted it overthrown and replaced with the co-operative commonwealth, aka "socialism" or "communism," which would fulfill the promise of democracy. The late Michael Harrington explains it all here:

http://anselmocarranco.tripod.com/id25.html

[12voltman59]

Well--for good or ill---the "Bailout Bill" was passed by the Senate last night and not long ago---it passed in the House--President Bush just signed it a few minutes ago----

It is amazing--while I think they did add a few necessary things--they didn't put on any controls on the financial people--hopefully that will be revisited when the new Congress takes its seat in January---but they sure did laden the thing up with a ton of "pork." I hope it was well cooked meat---we sure don't need any more financial sickness!!!

I will have to dump a whole bunch of strong BBQ sauce on it though as I eat my portion of it--I hope it goes down easy and stays down!!

[FalconAngel]

None of this would have become an issue if it had not been for Republicans disassembling the regulations that kept the financial institutions from making the same mistakes that caused the Big crash that brought about the Great Depression.

Those regulations were put in place to prevent a recurrence of the Great depression. So instead of sound financial and fiscal policy, they dismantled and removed most of those regulations and now we have a 700 million dollar bailout that we are paying for so that rich bankers can stay rich.

They all should be put in jail and forced to pay back the bailout from their own golden parachutes.

[IanGray]

As usual--thanks to often less than steallar and clear reporting in much of the media---It is not exactly clear what is meant by this "buyout plan" being pushed by US Treasury Secretary Paulson and the Bush Administration now being considered by Congress.

From what I have gathered--and I am no economist--an area of study that really flumoxed me in school----while it is most distasteful to have such a huge plan that some are deriding as "socialism"----we really seem to have no choice since the apparent alternative of some plan of this nature--- is the total meltdown of our financial system and then the rest of the economy--one major failing of the plan as proposed--it has no provisions to put into place the necessary controls on the markets to prevent what got us to this point from happening again---

Oh well---enough editorializing---I am going to put up a series of links on articles and such relating to this plan---pro and con---if you have the time--go through them and try to make up your own mind about it----

http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/text-bail-out-act-congress-take-action-now

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/sep/23/wallstreet.banking

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/23/bailout-plan-not-acceptab_n_128728.html?page=9&show_comment_id=16021135#comment_16021135

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080922.htm

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13704.html

http://www.blueoregon.com/2008/09/the-administrat.html

http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/palins-bailout-statement-raises-questions/

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/22/kill-the-bailout-will-the-real-fiscal-conservatives-please-stand-up/

Wow-one of the CEOs of the failed financial institutions forgoes his major compensation "golden parachute" package according to Fortune Magazine story:

http://dailybriefing.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/category/bailouts/

I will do one more bit of editorializing----I am so sick of these "free marketeer" types----it is pure 100 percent USDA prime Bull Hockey Pucks that we have ever had a truly "Free Market" in this nation or anywhere else in this world---the big money interests always have used the government to make their profit taking possible and to protect them so they could plunder at will--they would not really know how to act with a totally free market--they always want some sort of subsidies for their products and/or industries and also imposition of tariffs and trade restrictions on things that come from other nations-----such has always been the case----Just one more case of major myth making!!! We still have tons of trade restrictions, tariffs, subsidies and the like even with things like NAFTA and the WTO---FREE MARKET--MY Big fat white pimply arse!!

The 'Free Market' is sorta like sightings of the Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, or UFOS--lots of anecdotal evidence, but no hard proof it exists!!

In the times we have gotten the closest to "free markets" in the US--we had situations like the Robber Barons and the Glided Age, we had horrible working and pay conditions for workers that were barely better than slavery, we had the Great Depression and we may yet have another "Great Depression" that will make the last one look like a garden party thanks to hands off capitalism gone amok!!!

If you have observed human nature enough you will know that the same process has happened plenty of times in the past and will be repeated in the future. People such as Galbraith have been spelling out flaws in the system for years which has fallen on deaf ears. That is why socialism is needed to sort out the mess.

Ian

[12voltman59]

Looks like the Troll was back yet again---when is he gonna give it up?? The names he uses, the content of his posts and style of posts gives him away almost immediately--one sick fuck for sure!!

[darkeyes]

Unlike you, I have actually read the works of Marx (who happens to be a relative of mine), and he did NOT believe in democracy.
Don u eva dare tell me wot me hasn read Jamie... wos brot up on Marx an Engels..its been me life blood since me wos very wee..its a major reason me believes as me dus an wot me dus.. so advise ya jus don open ya gob an speak bout that of wich ya kno nuthin...a few sentences makin a statement is not an argument..an for a lawyer makin a case for the prosecution that it is shit poor...

But Marx...not believe in democracy? Don b daft... wiv every word 'e wrote..every word 'e spoke..every breath 'e took cried out "democracy".. power 2 the people.... toldya..wipe from ya mind wot ya learned bout socialism...read it properly from scratch wiv no preconceptions...take it from ther an ya eyes r opened... but don expect ya 2 do that...don think ya an..cos ya mind is closed like the minds a so many others...thats how the system likes it... an thats wy it so diffcult 2 change it...an thats 1a the reasons wy capitalism is so succesful in its fite gainst peeps gainin ther true dues...its in the interests a the powers that b..the rich...the rulin elite 2 save ther power... they kno peeps like u hav ther own self interested agenda an r happy 2 mak ther buck an sod every 1 else...ther r millions like u an thats a rite sad ole indictment on our species....bak em up if thats wotya wanna do..show whos side yas on cos its its not mine...its the elite who run the world..an they mus b laffin ther heads off wiv glee...they c u an me arguin..then they kno zactly they hav a hope a holdin on 2 ther power.. take ther side if ya will...ur choice..mine is diff... kno zactly on whose side me is on.... divide an rule..the capitalist an the rulin class charter...

[darkeyes]

If you have observed human nature enough you will know that the same process has happened plenty of times in the past and will be repeated in the future. People such as Galbraith have been spelling out flaws in the system for years which has fallen on deaf ears. That is why socialism is needed to sort out the mess.

Ian
Ian hun... have read alla ur stuff an sumtimes have found mesel in sum disagreement wiv it 2 say the least..but ere we cant find a hairs breadth tween us:tong::bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Yes, he did. He thought capitalism was a barrier to true democracy -- that's among the reasons why he wanted it overthrown and replaced with the co-operative commonwealth, aka "socialism" or "communism," which would fulfill the promise of democracy. The late Michael Harrington explains it all here:

http://anselmocarranco.tripod.com/id25.html

u an me cud b rite gud ole m8s biz..we wil prob disagree on lots but in genral...think we wud b rite chums.... wiv the same end in mind...:bigrin:

hava kissie..muah..ya deserve it...:tong:

[IanGray]

Ian hun... have read alla ur stuff an sumtimes have found mesel in sum disagreement wiv it 2 say the least..but ere we cant find a hairs breadth tween us:tong::bigrin:

Thanks Dark eyes. I've just visited Motley Fools web site and read an article by someone who knows less about economics than I do. She seemed puzzled by recent events, as though it was something new. Hopefully she will come to a deeper understanding of economlc cycles in time.

Ian

[IanGray]

Don u eva dare tell me wot me hasn read Jamie... wos brot up on Marx an Engels..its been me life blood since me wos very wee..its a major reason me believes as me dus an wot me dus.. so advise ya jus don open ya gob an speak bout that of wich ya kno nuthin...a few sentences makin a statement is not an argument..an for a lawyer makin a case for the prosecution that it is shit poor...

But Marx...not believe in democracy? Don b daft... wiv every word 'e wrote..every word 'e spoke..every breath 'e took cried out "democracy".. power 2 the people.... toldya..wipe from ya mind wot ya learned bout socialism...read it properly from scratch wiv no preconceptions...take it from ther an ya eyes r opened... but don expect ya 2 do that...don think ya an..cos ya mind is closed like the minds a so many others...thats how the system likes it... an thats wy it so diffcult 2 change it...an thats 1a the reasons wy capitalism is so succesful in its fite gainst peeps gainin ther true dues...its in the interests a the powers that b..the rich...the rulin elite 2 save ther power... they kno peeps like u hav ther own self interested agenda an r happy 2 mak ther buck an sod every 1 else...ther r millions like u an thats a rite sad ole indictment on our species....bak em up if thats wotya wanna do..show whos side yas on cos its its not mine...its the elite who run the world..an they mus b laffin ther heads off wiv glee...they c u an me arguin..then they kno zactly they hav a hope a holdin on 2 ther power.. take ther side if ya will...ur choice..mine is diff... kno zactly on whose side me is on.... divide an rule..the capitalist an the rulin class charter...

Never thought i'd agree with you 100%. trouble is what is the answer? I sure as hell don't know.

Ian

[darkeyes]

;
Yes Darkeyes does seem to be the intellectual fraud and poseur when it comes to politics, history, and political systems that don't work! ;)

She's quite the daft little cunt and only claims to have read books by Marx and Engles when called out on it because she really hasn't!

Little does the complete moron wanker of a Scot know that if she were living in a Socialist/Communist state she'd be imprisoned in a labour camp for being a dyke! Look at what they do to GLBT people in places that have been under Socialist/Communist rule such as China, S. Korea, and the former USSR!

Communism and Socialism have blatantly failed everywhere they've been tried even in the UK during the 1960s!

She also types like a daft teenager on a text message system and acts like a spoiled little brat when shot down in arguments and tries to even further confuse the person she's debating yet failing with more text that's better suited for a mobile phone.
ho.hum.. sum 1 else sukked in an conned by the system...nev mind.. hav survived worse...:tong:.. will say am no intellectual an hav neva clamied 2 b.. am even a lil spoilt...yep daft an all... but then we all hav our x's 2 bear..;)

[Bluebiyou]

Two of the greatest men that ever drew breath.
I have laughed with Groucho and sang with John until the cows came home!

[IanGray]

Even socialism, where it exists or did in the past, survived only because it was propped up by the capitalist nations.

The argument between Socialism and Capitalism does not solve any problems and serves only to cloud the issue. It is better to study economic history, taking note of how peoplle react to circumstances. Armed with such knowledge we can then decide the best action to take that will ensure we survive a recession.

It should be noted that all systems are flawed and do not provide a full answer. In fact they make the assumption that people always act rationally. This is a big mistake, esppecially in regard to stock markets.

No, I'd rather dig out the facts than study ideology.
Please note; I have read a few books on political and economic philosophy and did not find them as useful as books by 'kenneth J Galbraith'.

Ian

[Me43ormore]

For a neutral, factual, intelligent and unbiased analysis of the entire issue please see http://www.cathedralconsultinggroup.com/?q=node/76.
For those who can understand it, it will be very educational.