Numerology

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

I've always been rather fascinated with numerology and astrology, and have really been doing some studying and soul searching about myself. I've always consider myself a christian, grew up in the church, always led to believe the bible as truth , above all. Funny though how I always considered myself as a textbook sagittarius and how I relate to all of it so well, and how it accurately has almost always described me and the type of person I am.

So..Here is a site I thought I'd pass along, got it from Sapphy. The short profiles are free, for a full you have to pay. Enjoy !

Lynn Anne

http://www.decoz.com/

[FalconAngel]

It's interesting to note that, as we evolve as a society and become more educated, that more and more people leave or go outside of the "take it on faith" religions and turn to more esoteric nature religions to find answers that they cannot find within their monotheistic religion's writings and teachers.

The ultimate answer to life, the Universe and everything is 42.

[darkeyes]

It's interesting to note that, as we evolve as a society and become more educated, that more and more people leave or go outside of the "take it on faith" religions and turn to more esoteric nature religions to find answers that they cannot find within their monotheistic religion's writings and teachers.

The ultimate answer to life, the Universe and everything is 42.

9 X 6 aint 42...:tong:

[jamieknyc]

It's interesting to note that, as we evolve as a society and become more educated, that more and more people leave or go outside of the "take it on faith" religions and turn to more esoteric nature religions to find answers that they cannot find within their monotheistic religion's writings and teachers.

The ultimate answer to life, the Universe and everything is 42.

More likely, the esoteric nature religions appeal to people's desire for soem exoticism to stimulate the imagination, and also because they don't demand actual learning and religious observances. I always thought that the 'new age' religion scene always had an air of rapacious commercial exploitation, but I suppose I am old-fashioned by todays' standards.

[chulainn2]

never payed any attention to numerology, but i do have this funny birthmark above my right ear- 666, but if i stand on my head its 999

[jamieknyc]

never payed any attention to numerology, but i do have this funny birthmark above my right ear- 666, but if i stand on my head its 999

and while you are in the process of turning yourself over to stand on your head, does it say 69?

[Searchingfortwo]

More likely, the esoteric nature religions appeal to people's desire for soem exoticism to stimulate the imagination, and also because they don't demand actual learning and religious observances. I always thought that the 'new age' religion scene always had an air of rapacious commercial exploitation, but I suppose I am old-fashioned by todays' standards.


I don't know whether some of the esoteric organizations: Golden Dawn, OTO, etc... can even be called religious to begin with. I would also bet you that your mid-grade Golden Dawn member would be better versed in the Bible than most card carrying church members.

I do agree that a lot of 'new age' interests are more and more about commerce than actual learning. New millenium snake oil :bigrin: I suppose if you look long and hard enough you can seperate the commercial aspects and find the 'truth.'

Modern day numerology seems to be a mish-mash of a lot of other sources: The Kaballah (not the trendy Madonna stuff), The Vedas, Gnosticism, and on and on. But thats just my opinion I guess.

23 is a funny number.

[jamieknyc]

Most church members don't know too much Bible, so you are probably right that the Golden Dawn members know more than the church members. They do not know more than the guys in my synagogue, but that is an unfair comparison.

Some New Age religions do stem from old-school occultism, like you said. Others are just inspired by Hollywood.

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

So , I see you guys discussing it, have you done the profiles ?

[FalconAngel]

More likely, the esoteric nature religions appeal to people's desire for soem exoticism to stimulate the imagination, and also because they don't demand actual learning and religious observances. I always thought that the 'new age' religion scene always had an air of rapacious commercial exploitation, but I suppose I am old-fashioned by todays' standards.

That may be true for SOME eclectic Pagans (aka fluffy bunny Pagans), but it does not hold true for the vast majority of Pagan religions.
And while Wicca is called a "new age" religion, it is actually quite ancient. It is not the same as our ancestors religion, which had no name then, but it is evolved from that religion. For instance, in the rare paths that used to do sacrifices 6000 years ago, now do symbolic sacrifices.

We do demand and expect continuing intellectual study and advancement, we have 8 Sabbats per year. As far as exoticism, most traditional paths are only seen as exotic because we are traditional or what used to be called "Mysteries Schools". That means that we cannot tell you details about our Gods/Goddesses, ritual and whatnot. However anyone who dedicates them self to the path, may learn what we know. And, at least in the traditional paths, our elders will teach what they know as long as you are at a level to accept the information: In our case, you have 4 levels of learning and reaching the top does not mean that you stop learning.

And yes, we have been subject to a certain degree of commercial exploitation; any time that something gains popularity there will be people who will jump on it in an effort to make money. Or have we all forgotten all of the mega-churches and (since the 60's) televangelists, hack bible "expert" authors and bible shops around the country for the past 100 years or more, making small and large fortunes off of Christianity.

Our religion is not about money. We don't collect tithes or pass the collection plates. We each contribute what is needed for rituals and major sabbats and all participate. No preacher at the pulpit saying "do as I say, not as I do" either. None of us are expected to "take it on faith" and, for the largest part, there is no "class distinction" between us as one finds in many of churches.

Perhaps, next time, you might consider withholding your judgment about other religions until you know more than just the superficial propaganda that abounds about said religion.

[FalconAngel]

Some New Age religions do stem from old-school occultism, like you said. Others are just inspired by Hollywood.

The latter would be the aformentiond "fluffy bunny" Pagans. :)
We know a couple of those that refer to non-Pagans as "muggles". I think they use it as a derogatory remark.

[darkeyes]

That may be true for SOME eclectic Pagans (aka fluffy bunny Pagans), but it does not hold true for the vast majority of Pagan religions.
And while Wicca is called a "new age" religion, it is actually quite ancient. It is not the same as our ancestors religion, which had no name then, but it is evolved from that religion. For instance, in the rare paths that used to do sacrifices 6000 years ago, now do symbolic sacrifices.

We do demand and expect continuing intellectual study and advancement, we have 8 Sabbats per year. As far as exoticism, most traditional paths are only seen as exotic because we are traditional or what used to be called "Mysteries Schools". That means that we cannot tell you details about our Gods/Goddesses, ritual and whatnot. However anyone who dedicates them self to the path, may learn what we know. And, at least in the traditional paths, our elders will teach what they know as long as you are at a level to accept the information: In our case, you have 4 levels of learning and reaching the top does not mean that you stop learning.

And yes, we have been subject to a certain degree of commercial exploitation; any time that something gains popularity there will be people who will jump on it in an effort to make money. Or have we all forgotten all of the mega-churches and (since the 60's) televangelists, hack bible "expert" authors and bible shops around the country for the past 100 years or more, making small and large fortunes off of Christianity.

Our religion is not about money. We don't collect tithes or pass the collection plates. We each contribute what is needed for rituals and major sabbats and all participate. No preacher at the pulpit saying "do as I say, not as I do" either. None of us are expected to "take it on faith" and, for the largest part, there is no "class distinction" between us as one finds in many of churches.

Perhaps, next time, you might consider withholding your judgment about other religions until you know more than just the superficial propaganda that abounds about said religion.

Reely wot we call "Paganism" or the modern version of it may hav its roots in ancient paganism, but essentially, tho not exclusively. it is derived from the ancient northern European varieties of it, in particular the Celtic, of wich we nowadays kno so little. It is wot we think it may hav been or ratha wish it 2 hav been. So wot has been known bout it has been interwoven wiv imagined wishful thinkin of modern day human beins.We know a lot bout Roman Greek an Egyptian paganism, Norse an Germanic, but its the more mysterious wich holds the imagination most. Don get me rong... am not knockin the beliefs of pagans.. we all search for our own way.. an wen it cums 2 a belief system... an our need 2 believe in summat.. pagans cud do a lot worse...

[FalconAngel]

Reely wot we call "Paganism" or the modern version of it may hav its roots in ancient paganism, but essentially, tho not exclusively. it is derived from the ancient northern European varieties of it, in particular the Celtic, of wich we nowadays kno so little. It is wot we think it may hav been or ratha wish it 2 hav been. So wot has been known bout it has been interwoven wiv imagined wishful thinkin of modern day human beins.We know a lot bout Roman Greek an Egyptian paganism, Norse an Germanic, but its the more mysterious wich holds the imagination most. Don get me rong... am not knockin the beliefs of pagans.. we all search for our own way.. an wen it cums 2 a belief system... an our need 2 believe in summat.. pagans cud do a lot worse...

Actually, over the past 20 years, archeologists and sociologists have made great strides in learning about the Celts, their customs, beliefs and, to a small degree, some of their histories. Most people forget that the Celts lasted all the way past the time of the Roman occupation of Britain and the Romans were very good record keepers.

However, you are right that most of the modern Pagan religions that people commonly see are based on the European Pagan religions.

For those that are following any of the traditions that have survived, underground, for the past 1500 years, they have a lineage that does go back much farther than most are willing to admit. Our familiarity is through what is called British Traditional Witchcraft. That has a long, very secret, history though and is not what most people "know" of modern Wicca.

Part of why we see little of the beliefs of other Pagan cultures is mostly because some, but not all, of the others are very exclusive and insular.

For example, a white man trying to get shamanic training from the Native American tribes is virtually impossible. You need to be very well connected before they will even let you talk to a tribal Shaman about training, unless you have a noticeable amount of provable native American lineage. And then, it had better be from the tribe that you are talking to. Because of that, there is also very little information on that available to the public.

There is also the culture factor as to why we don't see much of the other cultures. Most people do not have much, if any, contact with those groups because of cultural contact. On groups like this, who have their base in the Indo-Eroupean cultures that dominate the western hemisphere, contact with non-European/Celtic/Norse Pagan religions is more limited because the other Pagan religions are in cultures that, mostly due to language issues, do not have much contact with our culture.

Now there are a few Pagan traditions that have survived in Egypt, Greece and Italy that many of us are familiar with and which have been adopted by some of the newer Pagan religions that have sprung up over the past 30 years.
Those seem to be the ones that most people have become familiar with up until the past decade or so.

[darkeyes]

yas rite.. lots has been learned bout Celtic culture..but not as much as me wud wish cos it is a fascinatin subject, an is me roots afta all... certainly remarkably little is known bout Celtic religion... they (the Romans) massacred the druids on Ynis Mons (Anglesey) wich wos ther big centre.. an so savagely supressed druidism an the Celtic religion that very little is known, since the druids learned it all by worda mouth ova many years an as the Celts had no written language human knowledge such as it is is derived from Roman literature (the literature of the conqueror, like all such..biased an innacurate an written 2 serve a purpose) an 2 sum extent, folk memory.. both notiously unreliable. Sum of our knowledge is also educated guesses by academics an scholars, but thats all they can b.. guesswork... we will learn more as time goes by, more about the culture than the religion, but that 2 in lil ways.. nowt profound me suspects... the culture itself is fascinatin, tho we will neva gain an accurate picture until we can piece 2 getha more knowledge a the religion, an that sadly jus aint gonna happen 2 the extent we need...

[FalconAngel]

yas rite.. lots has been learned bout Celtic culture..but not as much as me wud wish cos it is a fascinatin subject, an is me roots afta all...

I couldn't agree more. Both my wife and I have a fascination with the Celts, from a cultural/religious standpoint as well as from having roots in both Ireland and Scotland; The wife in Ireland (one family line), myself in Ireland (2 family lines) and Scotland (3 family lines).

[Searchingfortwo]

the culture itself is fascinatin, tho we will neva gain an accurate picture until we can piece 2 getha more knowledge a the religion, an that sadly jus aint gonna happen 2 the extent we need...


And that is where the problem lies. There is no more real hard information left to discover. Anybody wanting more information is at the mercy of academica. You can try and play fill in the blanks all you want but thats where the real issues of truth begin. Trying to figure out how a certain people lived with limited information just leads to speculation.

[Bluebiyou]

It's interesting to note that, as we evolve as a society and become more educated, that more and more people leave or go outside of the "take it on faith" religions and turn to more esoteric nature religions to find answers that they cannot find within their monotheistic religion's writings and teachers.

The ultimate answer to life, the Universe and everything is 42.

That's right! I think we should leave the religion of mathematics while we're at it. Yes, mathematics is a religion. You take two numbers, put them together and bam, you have a third new number. Now one can say how it happens or why, you just have to take it on faith.
I think the faith of mathematics should be banned from public schools, and confined strictly to mathematic churches.

[FalconAngel]

That's right! I think we should leave the religion of mathematics while we're at it. Yes, mathematics is a religion. You take two numbers, put them together and bam, you have a third new number. Now one can say how it happens or why, you just have to take it on faith.
I think the faith of mathematics should be banned from public schools, and confined strictly to mathematic churches.


Interesting idea; the church of mathematics.

The problem is this:

Can it pass the obscurity test? That being the unscientific process where, if it makes scientific sense and agrees with common sense (but disagrees with theology), then God must have done it and all the science is wrong.



But seriously, amongst Pagan beliefs, there is almost as much science as religion. Not the flawed science that they use for Creationism, but real science. Herbalism, Lapidary, energy manipulation and, to a degree, astronomy (at least as it relates to astrology) Even if some of it is what would be classified as "fringe science" (measuring things such as auras and all), it is still science.

The biggest hurdle that monotheists have with us is the fact that we do things differently and we do not believe in the "one God" and "devil" concepts.
They pray in their churches, synagogues, mosques and temples, but what we do is just more direct. They pray to change things, but we direct energy through spell work to change things, then we take action to empower our spell work.

Most of the problems that many monotheists have with Pagans is really the difference between core beliefs of deity and ritual procedure.
In Monotheism, most of the work is done by the Priest/Rabbi/Imam, while only about half of what is done in Pagan ritual is done by the High Priest and High priestess. Everything else is shared with the rest of the coven and/or done as a group effort with a clearly focused purpose.

That is why we find the most amusing thing to be when some Dominion Christian calls us "devil worshipers".
Our usual response to that is "We don't believe in the devil. How can you worship something that you don't believe in?"
That usually makes them stop and think.

Right now, though, at the core of most of the conflict between dominion religion and the rest of the world is the inability for some religious leaders to accept that science works. It's demonstratable and repeatable. And it also shows that what many leaders have accepted to be historical fact, is in reality, just allegory to be used as a teaching tool. Nothing more; nothing less.
Every time that one of these religious leaders tries to "prove" that everything in their particular version of the bible is true and historically accurate, they shoot holes in their religion.
Religion is not supposed to be about historical facts or science. religion is supposed to be a guideline for living you life as honorably and honestly as possible.
Perhaps the reason that these religious leaders want to "prove" that the Bible is fact is because they want to exhibit that they have power over their followers. In the cases of those particular leaders, they are using religion as a power brokering tool. They want to legitimize their bids for power over people that deserve better than these leaders can offer.

Fact is that no religion is "bad", but a religion can have bad leaders.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Sorry..I never was good at math..does it count that 69 is a fave number of mine? *Snicker*
Naughty Cat:)

[TheDudeAbides85]

Very well said darkeyez!

Agreed. Paganism/Wicca like Falcon is talking about is just a bunch of BS.

Darkeyes is correct that modern day Paganism/Wicca has basically nothing to do with the ancient Celtic/Druidic religions and that it's just like the church of Scientology and it's all about MONEY!

Real Kaballahists know more about the Torah/Talmud and the censored/left out parts of each than the people at JamieNYC's synagogue do.

Pagans/Wiccans like Falcon are just talking out their ass and don't really know anything about their modern day religion, its roots, the history of it (real Paganism wasn't even around in the 1500s at all, despite what the church claimed and what Falcon claims), and will say anything to believe that their religion is true when they actually don't know anything about it.

People like Falcon are also more apt to think that they're so unlike Jews, Moslems, and Christians and that they're not judgmental or based on money but this is wrong.

People like Falcon are also more apt to think that they're so unlike Jews, Moslems, and Christians and that they're not judgmental or based on money but this is wrong.

They're being just like the judgmental and dogmatic Jews, Christians, and Moslems when they proclaim that all others who don't believe in their sham of a religion are wrong and that their modern day religion is actually based on like Darkeyes said, something from the past that we actually know very little about.

They're being just like the judgmental and dogmatic Jews, Christians, and Moslems that they dislike and claim that their religion of Paganism isn't like at all when they proclaim that all others who don't believe in their sham of a religion are wrong and that their modern day religion is actually based on like Darkeyes said, something from the past that we actually know very little about and never really will since that true form of Paganism and Celtic/drudic religions are long gone and so are the people.

[rissababynta]

I knew it wouldn't be long before this shithead got to this thread haha.

[bisexualinsocal]

This is one of post-rennaisance mans earliest religions and also.... one of the biggest failures.


Proof that access to and memorization of information is the #1 false way to god.

[FalconAngel]

Very well said darkeyez!

Agreed. Paganism/Wicca like Falcon is talking about is just a bunch of BS.

Darkeyes is correct that modern day Paganism/Wicca has basically nothing to do with the ancient Celtic/Druidic religions and that it's just like the church of Scientology and it's all about MONEY!

Real Kaballahists know more about the Torah/Talmud and the censored/left out parts of each than the people at JamieNYC's synagogue do.

Pagans/Wiccans like Falcon are just talking out their ass and don't really know anything about their modern day religion, its roots, the history of it (real Paganism wasn't even around in the 1500s at all, despite what the church claimed and what Falcon claims), and will say anything to believe that their religion is true when they actually don't know anything about it.

People like Falcon are also more apt to think that they're so unlike Jews, Moslems, and Christians and that they're not judgmental or based on money but this is wrong.

People like Falcon are also more apt to think that they're so unlike Jews, Moslems, and Christians and that they're not judgmental or based on money but this is wrong.

They're being just like the judgmental and dogmatic Jews, Christians, and Moslems when they proclaim that all others who don't believe in their sham of a religion are wrong and that their modern day religion is actually based on like Darkeyes said, something from the past that we actually know very little about.

They're being just like the judgmental and dogmatic Jews, Christians, and Moslems that they dislike and claim that their religion of Paganism isn't like at all when they proclaim that all others who don't believe in their sham of a religion are wrong and that their modern day religion is actually based on like Darkeyes said, something from the past that we actually know very little about and never really will since that true form of Paganism and Celtic/drudic religions are long gone and so are the people.

Clearly a troll who knows nothing of what he speaks.

here's where the troll gets it wrong.

1) Except for the "fluffy bunny" Pagans, we are NOT judgmental nor are we about the money.

2) We are not so dogmatic as one may wish to think. What we believe is based, as much as possibly can be, on what has survived the burning times that the church inflicted on the people of Europe from the time of Constantine until about the early 18th century.

3) As far as judgmental, most recent converts, as with all religions, bash all others of different beliefs. Some never change, but amongst Pagans, all are encouraged to change and grow beyond what they are to what they can be. That includes realizing that not all paths are for everyone. It also means that we accept that there are people of other faiths and that they are entitled to follow the theological path that best suits them. We see religion from an "all roads lead to Rome" kind of perspective.

4) When we criticize Christianity, it isn't the religion that we criticize, it is the leadership which promotes hate and intolerance, just as with those members of Islamic clergy who promote hate and intolerance. It isn't the religion that is wrong, but the leadership which is at fault.

But since you are a troll and are iether too ignorant to understand or get your rocks off by creating issues that don't exist, you are now on the iggy list.

Fare well, troll.

[FalconAngel]

This is one of post-rennaisance mans earliest religions and also.... one of the biggest failures.


Proof that access to and memorization of information is the #1 false way to god.

Do you mean like knowing the Bible, for example, as the vast majority of Christians endeavor to do?
Or knowing the Quran, as the vast majority of Muslims endeavor to do?

They may not be factual, but they are information.

Based only on your statement, and nothing else, one would be lead to believe that your opinion is that "knowledge leads away from God". Is that an accurate assessment, or do you mean something else, altogether?

[bisexualinsocal]

Do you mean like knowing the Bible, for example, as the vast majority of Christians endeavor to do?
Or knowing the Quran, as the vast majority of Muslims endeavor to do?

They may not be factual, but they are information.

Based only on your statement, and nothing else, one would be lead to believe that your opinion is that "knowledge leads away from God". Is that an accurate assessment, or do you mean something else, altogether?

I'm not speaking about you. I'm just saying that people who claim to be self-knowing and knowledgeable are usually the most bankrupt of all. This is not about you or what I think about you. This is about Western valuation of knowledge.

[elian]

I'm one of those crazy people everybody dislikes because I pick and choose where I draw my religious inspiration from. I guess the closest label you could put on me is probably "Gnostic". Sad to say but mainstream religions "lost" me when it was more than implied that gay folks aren't welcome.

As usual I find it very hypocritical to preach "peace, love and tolerance" out of one side of the mouth and yet demonstrate through action an intolerant view of the world. To be honest, for a long time I was jealous of Christians - because their religion seemed on the surface to be very simple - what could be simpler than wanting to be in the arms of an ever-loving male role model? Just like I was searching for my own gender identity - I also searched for a way I could make religion fit for me as well.

If there is such a thing I think the mistake comes from listening to other humans who say that "God" doesn't WANT us to ask questions - just keep feeling secure (or worse) and continue to fork over the money/control/power responsibility (circle one).

I also tend to piss off logical people who view science as a religion too because I view science as an important tool to analyze things at the micro level but my inspiration comes from the broader world. The valance theory of electrons and crystalline structures are two things that inspire me to wonder in awe at the coexistence of both order and chaos at the same time.

As far as numerology, bible code seeking, etc. goes - there are a lot of things you can read a lot of meaning into whether the meaning is truly there or not. Symbology, intention and faith are very much intertwined so I don't want to say it absolutely DOESN'T work, but it would be a hard sell for me.

American Unitarians have a saying - prayer doesn't change things - prayer changes people - and people change things. Honestly, I have had occasion to see it both ways. Sometimes people can and do need to personally take on issues - but it would also be a mistake to say that we operate in a vacuum apart from universal consciousness and the intentions of others.

-E

[FerociousFeline]

The answer to the meaning of life IS....42. and 4 and 2 make SEX.

Er, six even. Six is the number of Love, and also, representative of the Yin, the feminine, and therefore (in it's natural state) the receptive.

^..^~

[FalconAngel]

I'm not speaking about you. I'm just saying that people who claim to be self-knowing and knowledgeable are usually the most bankrupt of all. This is not about you or what I think about you. This is about Western valuation of knowledge.

Aah. Okay.:)

Well, you are right about one thing. Those that claim to know it all, almost always know the least. (and it's pissing off those of us that do know everything :tongue:)

We know elders, Witch Queens and Magus', who have reached, what seems like, the pinnacle of our beliefs and freely admit that they still are learning, every day of their lives.

[FalconAngel]

I'm one of those crazy people everybody dislikes because I pick and choose where I draw my religious inspiration from. I guess the closest label you could put on me is probably "Gnostic". Sad to say but mainstream religions "lost" me when it was more than implied that gay folks aren't welcome. -E

Well, there are a few Christian churches, all over the country, that are not only accepting of Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual people, there are a few that are almost exclusively made up from their local Gay communities.

And if the mainstream religions have become a turn-off (and we are not trying to convert you here), the Pagan community, either traditional or eclectic, tends to be very welcoming to those of us who are not of a "mainstream" sexual identity. We know of one coven that is entirely Gay/Lesbian. Their HP is a great guy and a friend of ours.

There is also Buddhism, which tends to be a very accepting belief system for people of all genders, races and orientations.




As usual I find it very hypocritical to preach "peace, love and tolerance" out of one side of the mouth and yet demonstrate through action an intolerant view of the world. To be honest, for a long time I was jealous of Christians - because their religion seemed on the surface to be very simple - what could be simpler than wanting to be in the arms of an ever-loving male role model? Just like I was searching for my own gender identity - I also searched for a way I could make religion fit for me as well.-E

Very true.
Hypocracy is the death of any religion which really has the best interests of it's followers at heart. But religion is a very personal path that only the individual can know which is right for oneself.




If there is such a thing I think the mistake comes from listening to other humans who say that "God" doesn't WANT us to ask questions - just keep feeling secure (or worse) and continue to fork over the money/control/power responsibility (circle one).-E

Also far more true than you may know. Most of what we call "mainstream religions" have lost their way over the centuries. It has become all about the power and the money. It happened early for Christianity, which is why we have so many different Christian sects in the world today. Originally, it was only Catholicism, but then groups in Germany, England and other countries told the Pope that they wanted to worship their way and follow their rules and form Christian religions in protest of Rome's authority (thus they became Protestants).
Even those Protestant groups (Anglicans, Baptists, Protestants, etc.) have fallen into the same trap that Catholicism fell into in the Renaissance.




I also tend to piss off logical people who view science as a religion too because I view science as an important tool to analyze things at the micro level but my inspiration comes from the broader world. The valance theory of electrons and crystalline structures are two things that inspire me to wonder in awe at the coexistence of both order and chaos at the same time.-E

Science, while being a critical tool for advancement of mankind and for increasing the quality of life, is not the end all and be all. Even the greatest scientific minds of our world recognized that science, while vitally important to humanity, is still nothing but a tool for advancement of our understanding of the universe and how it works.




As far as numerology, bible code seeking, etc. goes - there are a lot of things you can read a lot of meaning into whether the meaning is truly there or not. Symbology, intention and faith are very much intertwined so I don't want to say it absolutely DOESN'T work, but it would be a hard sell for me. -E

That's understandable, particularly when there have been so many charlatans that have come along over the past hundred plus years. It would make anyone a bit leery of it. Even amongst us Pagans, if a process doesn't work, then it is thrown out and we find what does and incorporate it.




American Unitarians have a saying - prayer doesn't change things - prayer changes people - and people change things. Honestly, I have had occasion to see it both ways. Sometimes people can and do need to personally take on issues - but it would also be a mistake to say that we operate in a vacuum apart from universal consciousness and the intentions of others.-E

Actually, prayer is just focusing one's energies on an end result. However, if one takes no action to put power and action behind the prayer, then, prayer does, indeed, not change things.
Thought/prayer/intent without a related action is nothing but thought without purpose.

[elian]

Well, there are a few Christian churches, all over the country, that are not only accepting of Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual people, there are a few that are almost exclusively made up from their local Gay communities.



Yes, but like you said - spiritual practice is a very personal experience, at least for me. Have to think of church more in the role of supporting community. I ended up joining the local Unitarian church because it seemed like the least organized (most local) of all the organized religions I could find.




And if the mainstream religions have become a turn-off (and we are not trying to convert you here), the Pagan community, either traditional or eclectic, tends to be very welcoming to those of us who are not of a "mainstream" sexual identity. We know of one coven that is entirely Gay/Lesbian. Their HP is a great guy and a friend of ours.

There is also Buddhism, which tends to be a very accepting belief system for people of all genders, races and orientations.



I ended up being most like Buddhist on the Belief-O-Matic - with UU and Quaker in the top 5. I know several pagans and have always felt welcome - I do tend to draw my inspiration from many different sources however so I hesitate to call any one ideology "home" - I think there is wisdom, and friendship - in more than one place.




Actually, prayer is just focusing one's energies on an end result. However, if one takes no action to put power and action behind the prayer, then, prayer does, indeed, not change things.
Thought/prayer/intent without a related action is nothing but thought without purpose.

Tried to choose my words carefully because I am very much aware that intent and power are not always apparent externally.

Personally I would allow prayer in school if I was sure that a) it wouldn't detract from learning and b) that a Christian Prayer Circle would have as much equal standing as a Magickal Circle. I know I may offend some by saying that - apologizes - but prayer the way Christians do and prayer the way Wiccans do has pretty much the same result as far as I can tell.

Sorry if I offend anyone - but "God" gave me the painful gift of having an open mind growing up - and I tend to apply that view to more than just sexuality now.

You know how Sagittarius are, we're all for the "truth" as long as it's our version.

[FalconAngel]

Yes, but like you said - spiritual practice is a very personal experience, at least for me. Have to think of church more in the role of supporting community. I ended up joining the local Unitarian church because it seemed like the least organized (most local) of all the organized religions I could find.



I ended up being most like Buddhist on the Belief-O-Matic - with UU and Quaker in the top 5. I know several pagans and have always felt welcome - I do tend to draw my inspiration from many different sources however so I hesitate to call any one ideology "home" - I think there is wisdom, and friendship - in more than one place.



Tried to choose my words carefully because I am very much aware that intent and power are not always apparent externally.

Personally I would allow prayer in school if I was sure that a) it wouldn't detract from learning and b) that a Christian Prayer Circle would have as much equal standing as a Magickal Circle. I know I may offend some by saying that - apologizes - but prayer the way Christians do and prayer the way Wiccans do has pretty much the same result as far as I can tell.

Sorry if I offend anyone - but "God" gave me the painful gift of having an open mind growing up - and I tend to apply that view to more than just sexuality now.

You know how Sagittarius are, we're all for the "truth" as long as it's our version.

We know a few people that go to the local UU as well as some fellow Pagans that go to the UU up the coast from us. We've found that, with few exceptions, the UU's are good places whether one has found a specific path or if they are seekers.

If you can't find a "home" then the UU is a good place to be as a seeker. After all, not all who wander are lost.