you have to hear about this one [Archive]

BI BOYTOY

May 13, 2008, 10:55 AM

my child wicth so happens to be a very smart 12 yr old. ok first thing we are raising our kids not to be homophobs. and to come at life with open minds. with that said, this morning my boy was getting ready for school when he told me that in school on recess a teacher yeld at him and his freinds, cause they where playing a made up game they call ping pong, they basicly smack each others hands around. they cant run on the play grounds so what else are they going to do but make up games.anyway a teacher saw that and yeld at them,BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT THEY WHERE HOLDING HANDS. when i asked him what dose it mater if they where or not? he said it was against school rulls for boys to hold hands. if caught they will be in bad trouble. ok now im pissed. my kids know we are bi and they accept it , they say it is normal and not a big deal. what in the hell the school still in the dark ages? have we as people realy not changed that much? i though things where starting to turn aroung for people like us. i geauss not. what do you all thingk? im so glad my kid is not going back to this school next year.

ambi53mm

May 13, 2008, 1:00 PM

Change takes time....and schools are no exception because they have the human factor involved. Don’t let anything get in the way in obtaining of a good education for your son.
Education equals change and the lack of it equates to the type of ignorance we often find ourselves surrounded by on all four sides…..or six depending on you’re particular view of the world.
The schools in our locale used to hate seeing me walk through the door…and I have engaged everyone from top to bottom when I felt their education was in jeopardy. Unfortunately…teachers spend more time policing and babysitting than they spend pursuing their true passion “to teach”. I empathize with the way you feel…I’ve gone to bat on a few occasions on somewhat related situations…sometimes all we can do is work with what we’ve got and the current school system is what we have at the moment…with an education…he’ll continue the process of change….and often, that’s the best we can hope for.

Ambi:)

darkeyes

May 13, 2008, 2:11 PM

This aftanoon the school foned ere bout me partners daughter's precocious behaviour. This lil girl is 9 years old an er crime.. wos 2 kiss er bf on the school premises. Not grope..not huggle or grasp or do ne thin wich can b considered untoward... as they parted 2 go to ther own classes afta lunch they had a lil snog.

The school foned me an started off at ballistic level... neva a very gud thing 2start wiv me in 1st place. But me bein me wos very cool...didn shout (well mayb raised me voice a teeny bit) an told em me wud speak 2 er wen she got ome. A letta wos sent home..an accordin 2 this letta ther behaviour is not only unnacceptable but for children of 9 an 10 is downright unseemly an an infringement of the school morality code. Copy enclosed, it outlined a paragraph wer it says that any behaviour deemed unnacceptable by the head teacher the staff an the school board can be liable for immediate suspension or permanent exclusion. Correct me if me is wrong but wer is the morality code aspect of this?? Seems 2 me 2 b a subjective rule 2 punish ne 1 who dus ne thin the school don like.

Don get me rong..am not sayin the lassie wos rite in this, nor dus me necessarily think she has dun rong. This is the 21st century an our kids r much more precocious than even in my time at primary school. Hold me hands up ere an mus admit 2 bein caught kissin lads wen me wos 9 at school... but ther wos no hysterical reaction from the school an letters ome an threats of exclusion or expulsion. Wos a gud tellin off an it wos sorted. School then only approached parents wen ther wos summat reelly serious goin on. It seems that not only cantcha clout other kids at school ya cant b affectionate 2 em eitha. The otha week Kate got a letta from school cos Shiv had turned round an wacked a lad who wos pullin at an spittin on er pony tail.. the teacher wotched this goin on but is weak as water an has no control woteva of the kids.. an it wos she who copped the most serious punishment for retaliatin... will NOT tellya wot Kate did an sed 2 the school the followin day... allya need 2 know it wos very unladylike an very unlike er.

Now me intends wiv luk 2 teach school meself in a bit ova a year.. but hope that wen it cums 2 controllin kids, an ecouragin em 2 make a go of ther education me can do a whole lot betta than is happnin at this bloody place. Ther is a helluva a lotta gud things goin on in our schools but also the reverse is the case. Mayb if schools stood up 2 kids who wer jus lil sods insteada pikkin on othas for expressin a bitta affection things wud improve. But wen a school, like so many...says they have no bullyin an will act swiftly agaisnt the bullies..I askya..did they??? Every school has a problem at sum time or otha wiv nasty lil sods pikkin on those who cant look afta themselves.. jus a pity they jus won accept it... talkin of wich ...me wudn b very happy bout bein in Shiv's bf's shoes tomoz mornin wen e gets 2 school.... the 10-12yo macho brigade will b rite up for gettin im as a rite lil wimp .... wonda wer the school will b wen that happens???

O yea..had me word wiv Shiv...forgot 2 say...told er not botha bout it but 2 b more careful wer she dus er snoggin.. am buggered if me gonna tell er off for summat me did mesel wen er age...its parta growin up..

GalacticiaActual

May 13, 2008, 2:18 PM

I'm sorry to say, that in my opinion, school districts are just another layer of stale government bureaucracy. They seem to be unable to make any judgment calls, or evaluate situations on a case-by-case basis thanks to zero tolerance policies and hard fast procedures. Ironic that these very institutions that we are obligated to send our children to "learn to think", leaves very little room for their officials and teachers to do so on their feet. :2cents:

Ninnian

May 13, 2008, 2:34 PM

darkeyes

May 13, 2008, 2:45 PM

Bi_Druid

May 13, 2008, 3:02 PM

FalconAngel

May 13, 2008, 4:01 PM

You need to ream the school board for that. What they are doing is basically returning to the dark ages of sexuality. I can't say for your area, but in may areas (maybe even most areas) of the country policies like that are against the law as a civil rights violation. Policies like that make kids that are gay, grow up with a lot of self loathing and self doubt. They are definitely NOT in the best interests of the children in their care.

shameless agitator

May 13, 2008, 4:30 PM

Gee, thats frustrating BUT,
In our area, teh PC culture has made it a crime for any age child to touch another in an affectionate manner (No hugs, no hand holding, no peck on teh cheek) No matter if its FF, MF or MM...

Thankfully Ive not yet been hauled away in handcuffs for responding to teh the hugs that some of teh 5th graders in my sons class initiate with me.They know I care for them and will talk to them liek adults, and respond to a girl or boy needing or wanting a hug. But I tell you, it makes me nervous sometimes.

What a shame. :(

NinJust to avoid confusion, I'm addressing this to the OP.I have to ask, is this also the way it is at your son's school? If they're forbidding any children to hold hands, then it's stupid but not discriminatory. If not, then I'd have to agree with Falcon here...

You need to ream the school board for that. What they are doing is basically returning to the dark ages of sexuality. I can't say for your area, but in may areas (maybe even most areas) of the country policies like that are against the law as a civil rights violation. Policies like that make kids that are gay, grow up with a lot of self loathing and self doubt. They are definitely NOT in the best interests of the children in their care.

darkeyes

May 13, 2008, 7:37 PM

sorry, perhaps I've been living a blinkered or otherwise blissful life down here in my lil bit of the south of England, but I've never come across any such of these outrages in any of the schools I've been to.

I was kissing girls back in infant school, and I've known many of my past school friends from all stages of my life to be affectionate on some level or another (normally just holding hands in the younger years, and at 'worst' light petting or kissing in the senior years)
unless any actual individual student themselves raised a complaint with a teacher or other authority about unwanted advances from another, then no body seemed to worry.

I'm somewhat shocked, and appalled that such things should be happening anywhere in the civilised world these days, I thought this was meant to be the age of tolerance and understanding.Jus cos ya didn notice em dusn mean they werent ther Druid hun..spesh at primary school... parents know lots that kids havnt a clue bout..an 2 sum degree vice versa.. high schools kids r far more aware an its diff not 2 know wen sum scandal or otha hits the fan... fact is tho increasinly the meanin of the "nanny state"..of lookin afta peeps from cradle 2 the grave is cummin 2 mean not ther health, prosperity an well bein as it wos intended, but ther morality an all.. govt is increasinly interferin in things that don concern it an in schools sum, not all, but sum school boards r takin ther powers 2 the enth degree... 2 the detriment of the kids they supposedly tryin 2 educate an care for...

*pan*

May 14, 2008, 11:33 AM

hmmm, well here we go again with my favorite saying which is " what is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right" and until people realize that, society will always be sheep and be led.

GALACTICIAACTUAL > says ( I'm sorry to say, that in my opinion, school districts are just another layer of stale government bureaucracy. )

this is so true and i always love to hear truth. the government has found a way to devide the strongest thing in america and conqure it, ( the american family ), through all this hype about protecting and what is best for childern, now they use this against the american family to devide it by instructing the schools to question the childern as to their parents behavior and habits at home, turning them into littel spys and stool pidgons for the government. no matter how much you think it is your home and have a right to relax in it doing what ever you you feel is ok you are under the scrutenity of the government. i have read and heard on the radio and even know people who this has happened to with something simple. what do u think this does to the trust and respect for parents. yep your kids are being molded by a homophobic society, be careful not to express your feelings ( holding hands a kiss or simple touch, even at home with a same sex friend that they the government find out from your kids and remove them from an unhealthy enviorment, you think your kids are yours because you raised them and gave birth to them ? better think again, the homophobic government owns them, they say what they can be taught, what they can do and even what they can say, and even though they own them they hold you responsible and accountable for their actions, hmmmmm. sounds like a catch-22 thing. my kids are already grown and moved out so good luck to you who are still struggeling to raise yours.

I LOVE MY COUNTRY BUT FEAR MY GOVERNMENT
SHURE YOU CAN TRUST THE GOVERNMENT JUST ASK AN INDIAN
LOL

Papelucho

May 14, 2008, 5:41 PM

Homophobia is huge in schools as far as my experiences go. Students say that everything is "gay," when I was growing up in New York, the worst thing that you could be was gay.
Many teachers and administrators turn their heads because they don't know how to deal with homophobia, or they're homophobic...or at least heterosexist, themselves.
I know because I work in schools, and I just got my Masters in teaching. Schools should be the place where prejudice is addressed head on, but instead, it is often ignored.

Hephaestion

May 15, 2008, 5:11 AM

darkeyes

May 15, 2008, 8:50 AM

What a change over the years.

In my days at school, running, ball games, kissing and cuddling happened regardless. We showed our knickers and bits and shared cubicles. Blackeyes and blooded noses scuffed skin, slaps and pulled hair occurred also. In senior school, even the teachers had overt relationships with the students. Boys pimped boys for the artistic, religious, and geographers. Some had tattooes, wore eyeliner and others painted their nails. Everyone wore jewellry. Love was declared openly for what ever gender combination. Drugs did the rounds. Yet we produced achievers, sane, and with moral values high enough to recognise bullshit and bad practice. Above all, we respected our parents and predecssors for the freedoms that we had inherited.

What on earth has happened since? Jus did lil check on ya age Haeph babes... jus as me thot an all.. 1 the "summer of love" generation wich accordin 2 u "produced achievers, sane, and with moral values high enough to recognise bullshit and bad practice. Above all, we respected our parents and predecessors for the freedoms that we had inherited." Uhuh..fascinatin... now don take this personally Haeph hun cos it aint meant that way... cos me dad an me mum r of that generation... but that wonderful bunch a human beins wich did alla them wonderful things kinda stood alla that stuff ya talk on its head an has made a world wer everythin that they r sposed 2 have believed in means sod all... everythin they believed in the sold str8 down the river an became everythin they r sposed 2 have loathed...

Tellya wot happened since Haeph babes.. ur generation didn hav wot it takes.. it wos enticed an sukked inta the world of greed an selfishness an in the end cared nowt but for its own material well bein.. now we havin 2 pik up the pieces an try an make a world wich is at least savable.. an TF ther r sum signs.. not nearly enuff, but ther r sum.. that mayb we mite jus manage 2 do that.

ambi53mm

May 16, 2008, 4:45 AM

Jus did lil check on ya age Haeph babes... jus as me thot an all.. 1 the "summer of love" generation wich accordin 2 u "produced achievers, sane, and with moral values high enough to recognise bullshit and bad practice. Above all, we respected our parents and predecessors for the freedoms that we had inherited." Uhuh..fascinatin... now don take this personally Haeph hun cos it aint meant that way... cos me dad an me mum r of that generation... but that wonderful bunch a human beins wich did alla them wonderful things kinda stood alla that stuff ya talk on its head an has made a world wer everythin that they r sposed 2 have believed in means sod all... everythin they believed in the sold str8 down the river an became everythin they r sposed 2 have loathed...

Tellya wot happened since Haeph babes.. ur generation didn hav wot it takes.. it wos enticed an sukked inta the world of greed an selfishness an in the end cared nowt but for its own material well bein.. now we havin 2 pik up the pieces an try an make a world wich is at least savable.. an TF ther r sum signs.. not nearly enuff, but ther r sum.. that mayb we mite jus manage 2 do that.

Fran,
You don't know me...probably never will and that's fine....but when reading this last post I have to ask myself why I even bother to come here anymore. I guess to people like you ...it really doesn't matter.

Ambi:(

darkeyes

May 16, 2008, 5:26 AM

Fran,
You don't know me...probably never will and that's fine....but when reading this last post I have to ask myself why I even bother to come here anymore. I guess to people like you ...it really doesn't matter.

Ambi:(
Soz ya feel like that Ambi...cos it aint me purpose 2 freak ya out or make peeps feel unluffed...cos thats not me intention... jus that me says things as me sees em.. soz if ya don like it... don apologise for the content..mayb for the reaction it has brought out of ya.. amazes me still that peeps get so uptite bout an opinion..an observation..a belief... the mum an dad me wos talkin bout???... they r luffly.. they raised me wiv strong opinions an beliefs an 2 express em.. they did try an instill in me sum tact..but afraid sumtimes that kinda gets lost.. but afraid don think thin skins is summat that shud stop us from sayin things how we see em.. debate is debate an its how humanity makes progress... its wot democracy is all bout... the attack wos on a generation not individuals within that generation cos me knows that ther r lotsa triff wonderful peeps in that generation..wos raised by 2 of em..we row like hell bout things but they among the best. Generations differ..they argue..has always been..always will...an thtas also howe we progress as a species.. God knows the generation that me so critical of didn haff take issue wiv the generation wich went before.. that it fell an buckled unda the pressure from the status quo is sad but for all that, it moved society forward in many ways, not least of wich is the progress in sexual tolerance that allows us the freedoms we hav now. But that dus not excuse that generation for its excesses wich brot about the greed, the selfishness, the violence an intolerance we havta face in otha areas of human existence. The world we live in is substantially a creation of that generation an it cannot deny its contribution 2 the state we find ourselves in, no more than any otha generation in the past..or ne generation yet 2 cum.. me own generation included...god only knows wot in 30 or 40 years peeps will make of the world we hav made... scary thot...jus hope me big enuff 2 accept the criticisms of the young wen the time cums...

Cant say my generation will end up ne betta than the 1 me slagged off.. signs aint amazin..but ther r signs.. just as ther wer in the late 60's.. didn mean 2 sound holier than thou or intolerant...cos am not eitha..but am critical..very critical..jus as lotsa peeps of the 60's generation r helluva critical bout mine... as in fact am meself. Am not blind 2 our faults... they r many an make me tear me hair out at times... but we all of us hav the rite 2 state our view..thats wy forums exists..thats wy we hav democracy... thats how humanity moves on an learns.. gettin upset cos words howeva hard they hit home, howeva much ya mite disagree is an exercise in futility...

Jus end on this lil note...ya dus matta 2 me..every human bein on the planet mattas 2 me... every livin thing mattas 2 me.. me luffs life an its livin.. thats wy me speaks as me dus.. believes as me dus..acts as me dus. Thats wy me gets rite upset wen peeps take ther ball away an go off in a huff... an hope Ambi babes..that u aint 1a them...

csrakate

May 16, 2008, 2:15 PM

Tellya wot happened since Haeph babes.. ur generation didn hav wot it takes.. it wos enticed an sukked inta the world of greed an selfishness an in the end cared nowt but for its own material well bein.. now we havin 2 pik up the pieces an try an make a world wich is at least savable.. an TF ther r sum signs.. not nearly enuff, but ther r sum.. that mayb we mite jus manage 2 do that.
Fran,
I'm not one to get in the midst of any controversy of this nature, but I do feel a need to point out something in regards to your statement that people of my generation were "sukked inta the world of greed an selfishness an in the end cared nowt but for its own material well bein" (damn it took a lot out of me to type that in franspeak, LOL). People of my generation were children of parents who grew up in the depression...people who saw their own parents struggle daily to even put a modest meal on the table. For many, my parents included, the future held very little for them in regards to higher learning and many of them spent their lives working very hard for whatever they achieved. As a result, these hard working and very loving, dedicated parents wanted nothing more than to see the lives of their very own children to be somewhat different...they wanted them to have more than they did...wanted to insure that they got all the education they could so that they could someday have a life that might equal to what they interpreted as successful. We were taught a work ethic, as well as a need to achieve and unfortunately, sometimes that achievement was measured in material things. To make a blanket statement that we were sucked into a world of greed makes us look like self centered human beings when for many of us, myself included, that need to achieve was more of a tribute to our parents and the many sacrifices that they made to give us that chance in life.

So...sorry if you feel that some of us screwed things up...but I simply cannot sit here and be admonished for something that simply isn't the case.

Hugs,
Kate

jamieknyc

May 16, 2008, 2:29 PM

Fran,
I'm not one to get in the midst of any controversy of this nature, but I do feel a need to point out something in regards to your statement that people of my generation were "sukked inta the world of greed an selfishness an in the end cared nowt but for its own material well bein" (damn it took a lot out of me to type that in franspeak, LOL). People of my generation were children of parents who grew up in the depression...people who saw their own parents struggle daily to even put a modest meal on the table. For many, my parents included, the future held very little for them in regards to higher learning and many of them spent their lives working very hard for whatever they achieved. As a result, these hard working and very loving, dedicated parents wanted nothing more than to see the lives of their very own children to be somewhat different...they wanted them to have more than they did...wanted to insure that they got all the education they could so that they could someday have a life that might equal to what they interpreted as successful. We were taught a work ethic, as well as a need to achieve and unfortunately, sometimes that achievement was measured in material things. To make a blanket statement that we were sucked into a world of greed makes us look like self centered human beings when for many of us, myself included, that need to achieve was more of a tribute to our parents and the many sacrifices that they made to give us that chance in life.

So...sorry if you feel that some of us screwed things up...but I simply cannot sit here and be admonished for something that simply isn't the case.

Hugs,
Kate

Unfortunately, you cannot explain these things to young people, who were brought up with a huge sense of entitlement because our generation worked extremely hard to provide then with a better life. We grew up in a much more discplined environment, and undertsand that things that you have in life have to be worked for and earned. Twenty-somethings cap yap about our generation being materialistic, but let's see them live for a day without cell phones and a TV in their bedroom, which would have been inconceivable for my parents to have bought for me, and I am sure yours also. But it is our own fault. We spoiled them.

ambi53mm

May 16, 2008, 10:05 PM

Soz ya feel like that Ambi...cos it aint me purpose 2 freak ya out or make peeps feel unluffed...cos thats not me intention... jus that me says things as me sees em.. soz if ya don like it... don apologise for the content..mayb for the reaction it has brought out of ya.. amazes me still that peeps get so uptite bout an opinion..an observation..a belief... the mum an dad me wos talkin bout???... they r luffly.. they raised me wiv strong opinions an beliefs an 2 express em.. they did try an instill in me sum tact..but afraid sumtimes that kinda gets lost.. but afraid don think thin skins is summat that shud stop us from sayin things how we see em.. debate is debate an its how humanity makes progress... its wot democracy is all bout... the attack wos on a generation not individuals within that generation cos me knows that ther r lotsa triff wonderful peeps in that generation..wos raised by 2 of em..we row like hell bout things but they among the best. Generations differ..they argue..has always been..always will...an thtas also howe we progress as a species.. God knows the generation that me so critical of didn haff take issue wiv the generation wich went before.. that it fell an buckled unda the pressure from the status quo is sad but for all that, it moved society forward in many ways, not least of wich is the progress in sexual tolerance that allows us the freedoms we hav now. But that dus not excuse that generation for its excesses wich brot about the greed, the selfishness, the violence an intolerance we havta face in otha areas of human existence. The world we live in is substantially a creation of that generation an it cannot deny its contribution 2 the state we find ourselves in, no more than any otha generation in the past..or ne generation yet 2 cum.. me own generation included...god only knows wot in 30 or 40 years peeps will make of the world we hav made... scary thot...jus hope me big enuff 2 accept the criticisms of the young wen the time cums...

Cant say my generation will end up ne betta than the 1 me slagged off.. signs aint amazin..but ther r signs.. just as ther wer in the late 60's.. didn mean 2 sound holier than thou or intolerant...cos am not eitha..but am critical..very critical..jus as lotsa peeps of the 60's generation r helluva critical bout mine... as in fact am meself. Am not blind 2 our faults... they r many an make me tear me hair out at times... but we all of us hav the rite 2 state our view..thats wy forums exists..thats wy we hav democracy... thats how humanity moves on an learns.. gettin upset cos words howeva hard they hit home, howeva much ya mite disagree is an exercise in futility...

Jus end on this lil note...ya dus matta 2 me..every human bein on the planet mattas 2 me... every livin thing mattas 2 me.. me luffs life an its livin.. thats wy me speaks as me dus.. believes as me dus..acts as me dus. Thats wy me gets rite upset wen peeps take ther ball away an go off in a huff... an hope Ambi babes..that u aint 1a them...

“Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you”.

More than just words Fran…it’s what we give the world.

Safe Journey
Ambi:)

darkeyes

May 17, 2008, 5:43 AM

Mumsy..me has neva an wont eva deny that from the generation from wich u cum ther r millions a decent peeps who hav compassion an decency an who r everythin a human bein shud b. Me point is this..that the generation of the mid 2 late 60's..the generation of peace an luff, the generation of harmony, the generation wich believed so much in a betta world an from wich so much wos expected fell down, as a collective whole, on the job. It wos that generation wich helped give power 2 1st Thatcher, then Reagan but failed miserably 2 learn from those ghastly errors of judgement an bought inta the philosophy of greed, intolerance an selfishness. It is that generation wich now, in 2007 runs the world an has given us Bush an the shallow doctrine of Blairism. Ne thin an ne 1 who gets in the way is unpatriotic an dangerous. Of course ther r those who hav neva bought inta that.. millions.. but for all that the generation as a whole mus take the responsibility, jus as the generation before has its share for the rise of fascism an nazism prior 2 1939, even tho ther wer millions who opposed those evil philosophies. The day will cum wen my generation will b judged, an as far as me can, am gonna make sure that history's judgement on us is less harsh than me believes it is on those 2 previous generations. Shud my generation fail an b so harshly judged, then for all the fact that me has dun me bit 2 make it othawise, then my failure, an the failure an the failure of millions othas like me dus not allow us 2 escape culpability.

An Jamie.. don accept me has entitlement 2 ne thin on a personal level tho do hav certain things that we a citizens of our respective countries shud hav entitlement 2..decent health care, free education stuff like that..but accept that we havta do our bit 2 get 2 wer we wanna b in our lives wich means earnin it. Do accept that at a personal level me has been spoiled..still am..am me daddy's girl afta all.. but that don mean that me sensa decency an compassion is found wantin an that me thinks me hasta hav everythin handed on a plate 2 me.. it all has 2 b earned an worked for..an thats wot me doin..or tryin 2 as r most peeps of ne generation.

An finally 2 Ambi..the lil statement on tolerance an undastandin? Thats meant 2 refer only 2 me sexuality but it can also b applied 2 how me lives me life an c's the world. Don think ne thin me sed in these lil exchanges alters that. Ther r things me has no tolerance of...intolerance for 1..bigotry...war..fascism... sumthings no sane person shud even contemplate toleratin... sure me critical..but that don mean me is ne thin otha than tolerant of the peeps me critical of... thats wy me don let, as far as me can, things 2 get personal. Cos deep down me accepts that peeps hav their beliefs an opinions an ther own standards..me mite think they r rong an say so.. thats not intolerance..its jus that me tries 2 change peeps minds..jus as me accepts they hav the rite 2 change mine if they can..

CuddlyKate

May 17, 2008, 7:16 AM

I had to laugh when I read the end of your last post Frances. Change your mind? That'll be right. For all the lovely things about you that is one thing which can be infuriating. You are stubborn and often dogmatic to the core. While I do not disagree with much of what you say I find it unfathomable how every person of a generation can be held accountable for the actions of that generation as a whole. Pre 1939, people were imprisoned and died fighting fascism and millions after. Many took a stand and fought against the rampant consumerism and selfishness against which you railed that accrued during the Thatcher and Reagan days. People died in Britain and were imprisoned taking a stand against Thatcherism. Even now, people are prepared to act and do all they can to stop the worst excesses of what the British Government is proposing in limiting our freedoms. Equally I am in no doubt whatever that in the United States and beyond people will do so in defence of their liberties. It is such an all encompassing and sweeping statement you made and one which quite frankly I do not accept. Certainly a generation should be held accountable, but not I believe and will never accept every individual who is of that generation irrespective of his or her actions. I probably agree people can be held accountable for their failures, but not Frances for the actions of those who by winning the argument and thus the fight, were responsible for those failures.

ambi53mm

May 17, 2008, 7:36 AM

An finally 2 Ambi..the lil statement on tolerance an undastandin? Thats meant 2 refer only 2 me sexuality but it can also b applied 2 how me lives me life an c's the world. Don think ne thin me sed in these lil exchanges alters that. Ther r things me has no tolerance of...intolerance for 1..bigotry...war..fascism... sumthings no sane person shud even contemplate toleratin... sure me critical..but that don mean me is ne thin otha than tolerant of the peeps me critical of... thats wy me don let, as far as me can, things 2 get personal. Cos deep down me accepts that peeps hav their beliefs an opinions an ther own standards..me mite think they r rong an say so.. thats not intolerance..its jus that me tries 2 change peeps minds..jus as me accepts they hav the rite 2 change mine if they can..

LOL Far be it from me to try and change your mind Fran.
Our interpretation may differ on what’s being said…but I respect your viewpoint even tho I may be critical of the way it’s being expressed. Our generation may have failed in some areas but we’ve succeeded in others and the battle lines change with each generation. With your generation the seeds of needed change were planted and time will tell as to how fruitful the nourishing of those seeds turned out to be.

I have two daughters I’m very proud of one that is working on her PhD in areas and neighborhoods where most people would consider unsafe day or night to create change. The other just returned from three months on the Pine Ridge Reservation teaching children to read and is now rebuilding houses in New Orleans’ hardest hit areas as a result of hurricane Katrina.. I can’t take credit for their achievements and/or accomplishments. They have worked hard as I did to become who and what they are, but those values and beliefs that fuel their desire to work towards change we (their mom and i) will take credit for….because that is who we are…and what we’ve instilled within them…..and they do it with respect…dignity…and tolerance because they understand not everyone has had the advantages they have had…nor the nourishing of ideals that reach beyond themselves….and challenge at every level.
You have a daughter Fran…..lol let her teach you, as you teach her… you'll find in her the best teacher you’ll ever have.

Ambi:)

darkeyes

May 17, 2008, 9:31 AM

We actually not 2 far apart Ambi..cos me agrees wiv that.. its wot we do now that mattas an on wot we will b judged... jus hope we don blow it... lets hav a gud matter in 30 years or so an c huh?

Neva wonted 2 b a parent.. wos neva in me plans... but its been me lot in life 2 fall for sum1 who has 2 of the lil darlins, an lukky enuff 2 hav me feelins returned! An don regret it it 1 jot... anyas rite..its as much bout learnin from them as it is 2 teach em wot life is about an wot they shud an shudn b. Wudn b wivout either of em ne more than me wud b 2 fonda not havin ther mum wake up next 2 me of a mornin.. they hav proved a blessin an a joy. Its not up 2 me 2 shape who they becum or Kate's..its our job merely 2 help them becum the person they wont 2 b an realise ther potential.. but 2 do it by appreciatin, undastandin an respectin otha peeps an the world about them.

An 2 Kate..me sayin nowt ere! Me knows betta 2 argue in public wen she on er hi horse!!!:tong: Me jus take me medicine like a lil mousie.;)

csrakate

May 17, 2008, 1:09 PM

Its not up 2 me 2 shape who they becum or Kate's..its our job merely 2 help them becum the person they wont 2 b an realise ther potential.. but 2 do it by appreciatin, undastandin an respectin otha peeps an the world about them.

We do agree on this, fran....most definitely...BUT...that word respect is one that we should NEVER forget....including respecting others enough not to jump to rash conclusions as to how they lived their life or generalizing the traits of people based on groups. You don't wish that for yourself and your sexuality....I don't want that for myself and the generation I was raised in....Always remember that there are two sides to every story...and to draw conclusions based on your personal beliefs and theories does a great disservice to others.

Hugs,
Kate

jamieknyc

May 17, 2008, 10:01 PM

[QUOTE=darkeyes;102628]Mumsy..me has neva an wont eva deny that from the generation from wich u cum ther r millions a decent peeps who hav compassion an decency an who r everythin a human bein shud b. Me point is this..that the generation of the mid 2 late 60's..the generation of peace an luff, the generation of harmony, the generation wich believed so much in a betta world an from wich so much wos expected fell down, as a collective whole, on the job. It wos that generation wich helped give power 2 1st Thatcher, then Reagan but failed miserably 2 learn from those ghastly errors of judgement an bought inta the philosophy of greed, intolerance an selfishness. It is that generation wich now, in 2007 runs the world an has given us Bush an the shallow doctrine of Blairism. Ne thin an ne 1 who gets in the way is unpatriotic an dangerous. Of course ther r those who hav neva bought inta that.. millions.. but for all that the generation as a whole mus take the responsibility, jus as the generation before has its share for the rise of fascism an nazism prior 2 1939, even tho ther wer millions who opposed those evil philosophies. The day will cum wen my generation will b judged, an as far as me can, am gonna make sure that history's judgement on us is less harsh than me believes it is on those 2 previous generations. Shud my generation fail an b so harshly judged, then for all the fact that me has dun me bit 2 make it othawise, then my failure, an the failure an the failure of millions othas like me dus not allow us 2 escape culpability.

An Jamie.. don accept me has entitlement 2 ne thin on a personal level tho do hav certain things that we a citizens of our respective countries shud hav entitlement 2..decent health care, free education stuff like that..but accept that we havta do our bit 2 get 2 wer we wanna b in our lives wich means earnin it. Do accept that at a personal level me has been spoiled..still am..am me daddy's girl afta all.. but that don mean that me sensa decency an compassion is found wantin an that me thinks me hasta hav everythin handed on a plate 2 me.. it all has 2 b earned an worked for..an thats wot me doin..or tryin 2 as r most peeps of ne generation.

An finally 2 Ambi..the lil statement on tolerance an undastandin? Thats meant 2 refer only 2 me sexuality but it can also b applied 2 how me lives me life an c's the world. Don think ne thin me sed in these lil exchanges alters that. Ther r things me has no tolerance of...intolerance for 1..bigotry...war..fascism... sumthings no sane person shud even contemplate toleratin... sure me critical..but that don mean me is ne thin otha than tolerant of the peeps me critical of... thats wy me don let, as far as me can, things 2 get personal. Cos deep down me accepts that peeps hav their beliefs an opinions an ther own standards..me mite think they r rong an say so.. thats not intolerance..its jus that me tries 2 change peeps minds..jus as me accepts they hav the rite 2 change mine if they can..[/QUOTE

You want to talk about activism, and making the world a better place?

My grandfather, who was a conservative white man, worked his way up the ladder to become manager of a factory. As manager, the first task he undertook every single day was to inspect the ladies' room himself and make sure that it was clean and had adequate supplies of toilet paper and other bathroom items for the women employees. That was real social activism, not the bullshit that passes for activism today, like making anti-fur demonstrations or marching in LGBT parades.

darkeyes

May 19, 2008, 6:56 AM

Mumsy me luff..me gives respect 2 those who r deservin of it..an expect no moren that in return.. mayb a lesson Jamie shud learn wen dismissin demonstration an socio/political activism an standin up for lgbt rites as "bullshite". They but part of the whole Jamie..an wtf wud we b wivout em?

csrakate

May 19, 2008, 9:01 AM

I don't believe Jamie was dismissing those types of activists but merely pointing out that true activism isn't necessarily joining in on the bandwagon, but doing something YOURSELF that may impact the lives of others...like his grandfather did. It's so easy to jump on board with others and consider ourselves activists, but the true heroes are the ones who go unnoticed...the ones who go quietly amid mayhem and do what they can to right a wrong. So no...he isn't dismissing those that do that....just pointing out that we just don't notice the ones who do more.

Please Fran....stop jumping to conclusions and read between the lines....things aren't always black and white!

Hugs,
Kate

PS...and maybe it's time we let this thread return to it's original intent....sooo...we now return you to our original post....already in progress! LOL!!