Falling Home Values - Good or Bad [Archive]

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alaskacouple

Mar 26, 2008, 3:07 AM

Bluebiyou

Mar 26, 2008, 7:15 AM

Good for me, probably.
I don't currently own, but am thinking of buying now.
Low interest rates, depressed market..
Buy low, sell hi...

Doggie_Wood

Mar 26, 2008, 7:31 AM

the mage

Mar 26, 2008, 8:39 AM

As we all know home values have taken quite a set back. I have only heard one or two commentators in the financial news media take the position that this is actually a good thing for the overall American economy.

The point being made of course is that home prices over the last decade (or more) have grown disproportional to income. This disproportional growth in turn was brought about by the idea that houses were great investments, and many people became speculators buying and "flipping" homes for quick profits.

However, this action while making some wealthy also had a serious impact on many people becoming increasingly unable to afford a home. This is especially true for young people just starting out.

So the opinion question is; Do you agree or disagree with this position? And what, if anything, should be done to rectify the situation?

(and for my own two cents; I tend to agree. It seems that for some, homes are no longer a place to live in, but just another financial instrument to speculate with. That all seems fine until you look at the side effects. The crash of the speculative bubble is bad enough in just economic terms - but the taking away the American Dream of owning your own home is far worse. Lest we forget, in the early years of this country even a young family could build a "cabin" or a small house fairly reasonably and make a start. Now a young family needs to be able to assume a couple of hundred thousand dollars of debt to do the same. I wonder; in the future, will American cities come to resemble some of those we see from around the world - you know, the ones where a photographer can take a shot of a shanty town built of cardboard and scraps of plastic with a shiny high-rise condo building as a backdrop? )

The thought that this is in some way good is so wrong in so many ways.
You are witnessing a social breakdown of the first order.
In the new unreality that is forced on you, you are going to find a basic fact.
Everything you own will be worth far less. Everything you need will cost you far more.
I suggest you take a hard look at what happening in the world.
I told you all in post ages ago that the new face of nature is the disruptor that will take society down.
Done any storm tracking lately??
Take a look around at the places all over that we know to be storm damaged, recently. Noone has insurance any more,,These areas are not being rebuilt.
People just move to the city. All over the world, the cities grow, the slums grow the population stagnates.

Urban population is now more than 50% of human population.
Every major urban city is on the ocean shore line.

Your food is transported by truck exclusively. Seen a truckers income lately?
Seen where his and your cash is going? How long will the trucks roll at 6 buck a gallon gas? How much is your food going to cost? The farmer needs diesel too. Petrochemicals and your own shit grow your food now...

No..this is not fucking good at all...........

HighEnergy

Mar 26, 2008, 9:15 AM

Well, it housing market being in a slump is actually bad for me.
I have a house that has been bank appraised at $122,500 and I will be lucky if I can sell it for $10,000 to 15,000 under market value.

So my delima is, do I simply lease it out. Do I include a purchase option with the lease?
And have to deal with the possibility of a bad tennant who will tear the place up and have to invest a fortune to repair the place so I can go through the whole thing again?
Or do I simply dump it on the market?

To arrive at an answer, much thought must be given, .

I am a realtor and there is a thing called a short sale, where if you have a mortgage that is for more than the market value, the bank takes less than the mortgage amount and forgives the rest. It's more complicated than that, but I can help you find a realtor in your area to help you, and explain it in more detail to you in an email if you like. Feel free to contact me about it.

BronzeBobby

Mar 26, 2008, 9:19 AM

Well, it housing market being in a slump is actually bad for me.
I have a house that has been bank appraised at $122,500 and I will be lucky if I can sell it for $10,000 to 15,000 under market value.

So my delima is, do I simply lease it out. Do I include a purchase option with the lease?
And have to deal with the possibility of a bad tennant who will tear the place up and have to invest a fortune to repair the place so I can go through the whole thing again?
Or do I simply dump it on the market?

To arrive at an answer, much thought must be given, .

I think you should lease it out to a tenant. Just take your time finding a good one, and accept some loss in the short term while it's unoccupied. The money you lose waiting to rent it out, will be less than the money you will lose if you sell when the market's depressed.

And in karma terms, you win more points for your soul by giving a home to someone who doesn't own, than you would by selling your house to a developer who will probably flip it.

BronzeBobby

Mar 26, 2008, 9:29 AM

As we all know home values have taken quite a set back. I have only heard one or two commentators in the financial news media take the position that this is actually a good thing for the overall American economy.

The point being made of course is that home prices over the last decade (or more) have grown disproportional to income. This disproportional growth in turn was brought about by the idea that houses were great investments, and many people became speculators buying and "flipping" homes for quick profits.

However, this action while making some wealthy also had a serious impact on many people becoming increasingly unable to afford a home. This is especially true for young people just starting out.

So the opinion question is; Do you agree or disagree with this position? And what, if anything, should be done to rectify the situation?

(and for my own two cents; I tend to agree. It seems that for some, homes are no longer a place to live in, but just another financial instrument to speculate with. That all seems fine until you look at the side effects. The crash of the speculative bubble is bad enough in just economic terms - but the taking away the American Dream of owning your own home is far worse. Lest we forget, in the early years of this country even a young family could build a "cabin" or a small house fairly reasonably and make a start. Now a young family needs to be able to assume a couple of hundred thousand dollars of debt to do the same. I wonder; in the future, will American cities come to resemble some of those we see from around the world - you know, the ones where a photographer can take a shot of a shanty town built of cardboard and scraps of plastic with a shiny high-rise condo building as a backdrop? )

I wrote my opinion about this in the Bear Stearns thread. I think it's good that home prices will fall. The real estate boom helped a specific chunk of the middle and upper classes, generally people who had enough money already, so they could buy more than one property and then flip some for profit. These people need our help now, but we should NOT do anything to prop up home prices.

I am part of that generation that got destroyed by the real estate bubble. Born in the early 1970s, my wife and I got started in our careers and had children, at a point when home prices were so high we couldn't even think about buying. We used our education wisely (we both have PhDs) and decided to think long-term; we knew it wouldn't be wise to finance a huge mortgage and then have our credit destroyed by a downturn. So we have saved and tried to build a humble life. But the reality is, we have been completely shut out of many social circles, because we live in a 1-BR flat with our children, and people look down on us. I don't attach a lot of value to social status, but the problem is that in our field (academia), your chances of promotion and tenure are influenced by your social profile -- do you have people over? Do you entertain well? Do you throw nice baby showers for your colleagues and their wives? If you live in an overcrowded slum, you can't do any of that, and you develop a reputation as not being a "team player" and not really being "committed to the department."

IMO, a lot of the arrogant social climbers who have come to take their spacious homes for granted (and who look down on everyone else) will get a long-overdue humbling -- maybe even a smackdown -- from this mortgage crisis. They'll be forced to reckon with the way everyone else lives. And a lot of people like my wife and me will at last be able to own something. Many of them will be forced to rent out their extra homes, or rent out parts of their own houses, in order to make the mortgage, which should bring down the rental prices as well.

So in every way, the housing market collapse is good in the long term, even if it's painful now. We built an economic boom for at least three decades based on paper fantasies -- the dotcoms in the 90s, the S&Ls in the 80s, the real estate of the 2000s -- and eventually, the economy has to correct. People have to trim their expectations down to what's realistic. A recession can be necessary sometimes.

12voltman59

Mar 26, 2008, 9:44 AM

I know that some people are certainly going to get hurt by the reduction in home prices---but this correction really had to come---one of the main reasons that real estate prices had risen so fast and so much in many places is not because of the natural rise in real estate values--which over time is a good thing--but many people had gotten into real estate as yet one more speculative venture where people weren't simply buying their main place to live and maybe a few others for vacation homes--they were buying many properties, maybe doing some rehab/renovation then selling them for big profit and that was not really a good thing since that sort of activity was making overall home prices rise way to fast--making it hard for people starting out and for those of modest incomes to buy homes they could afford. I hope that this "flipping" situation has slowed way down now.

As I heard one financial person say on a program recently--she was glad in a way that the speculative real estate bubble had burst because as she noted---the main reason people buy houses is not to make money like doing day trading or gambling in Vegas--but for people to have a roof over their heads.

I do feel bad for people who bought homes just for basic housing during the price rise period and not for any sort of speculation who are now "underwater" thanks to the past rise in real estate values that are now falling such that they owe more on their mortgages than the property is now worth-----but for those who had gambled on real estate values always going up and they were trying to make a fast buck--I don't have one whit of sympathy--in fact I hope such people lost their shirts because what they were doing was making it tough on the rest of us--one other negative aspect of the fast rise in real estate prices----not only did the value of homes go up-which seems at first like a good thing--but when your home counties did new property assessments--with the increased value of your property in recent years---there was an comensurate increase in property taxes thanks to increased property valuation--and now that your values are going down--depending on where you are---it may be several years until your property taxes go back down now that they increased so much and you will be paying higher taxes on property worth less than it was in the recent past.

HighEnergy

Mar 26, 2008, 2:29 PM

Some investors buy short sales, but more every day folks buy short sales. I bought my own home out of a short sale, and the listings I've done for short sales have been purchased by folks making them into homes, not investments. So, yes, it's good karma to lease to someone who cannot buy, but there are risks to that too, as if the bank won't give them money, there are lots of reasons for that.

If your taxes have gone up because of the tax appraisal, and prices are falling in your area, you can have a realtor do a comparable market analysis for you to take to the tax office. In our area, they only do those adjustments before April 1st, but they may do them all year in other parts of the country. It doesn't hurt to call and ask. Most realtors will run that info up for you at no charge, hoping you'll do business with them in the future, or you might refer someone to them who is in the market. It's one of those good will/karma/marketing things we do.

I know lots of realtors all over the country, so if you ever need help finding one feel free to ask me!

HighEnergy

Mar 26, 2008, 2:34 PM

And yes Volty, over all the market needs to be readjusted. The folks I feel sorry for are the ones who bought at the height, got in a loan they really can't afford, and lose everything in the process. It's why I'm specializing in short sales, to help folks out of the mess they've been lured into.

Right now is a great time to buy with the market falling, and interest rates falling too. Lots of folks want to wait until it bottoms out, but start looking now and get preapproved now and be ready. Besides, if you get a great deal now, why wait?

Just be careful with mortgage brokers. I don't know why they want to tell folks who are struggling to pay $600 rent that with tax benefits they can pay $1200 for a mortgage. Keep yourself in the mortgage amount you want to pay a month, including taxes and insurance no matter what they tell you. There will be no landlord to save your ass when the hot water heater or the furnace blows up!

Doggie_Wood

Mar 26, 2008, 4:22 PM

I am a realtor and there is a thing called a short sale, where if you have a mortgage that is for more than the market value, the bank takes less than the mortgage amount and forgives the rest. It's more complicated than that, but I can help you find a realtor in your area to help you, and explain it in more detail to you in an email if you like. Feel free to contact me about it.

The amount that is still owed (mortgage + HELC) is what I would have to sell the house at with me paying most of the closing costs.
DFW area is one of the few areas where the market is depressed but has a lot of influx of people moving in to the area. We do have an abundant selection of homes in the area and although te new starts have slowed, builders are still working.

I am hoping to sell at $100-110, 000 ($110K I pay all closing).

:doggie:

Doggie_Wood

Mar 26, 2008, 4:28 PM

I think you should lease it out to a tenant. Just take your time finding a good one, and accept some loss in the short term while it's unoccupied. The money you lose waiting to rent it out, will be less than the money you will lose if you sell when the market's depressed.

And in karma terms, you win more points for your soul by giving a home to someone who doesn't own, than you would by selling your house to a developer who will probably flip it.

I have talked to some friends in the neighborhood and I may lease the house to a military person. I am guaranteed my rent that way and if I am selective, I get a good tennant for 1-3 years.

:doggie:

HighEnergy

Mar 26, 2008, 4:38 PM

The amount that is still owed (mortgage + HELC) is what I would have to sell the house at with me paying most of the closing costs.
DFW area is one of the few areas where the market is depressed but has a lot of influx of people moving in to the area. We do have an abundant selection of homes in the area and although te new starts have slowed, builders are still working.

I am hoping to sell at $100-110, 000 ($110K I pay all closing).

:doggie:

I've pm'd you my contact information so feel free to contact me outside of this site if you like. I'm happy to help you figure out another way.

onewhocares

Mar 26, 2008, 8:45 PM

Well I know for me, the housing slump has been awful. I had to refinance our home to get a lower rate and get into a fixed mortgage...in the appraisal, our home lost 250K in value..I was shocked. As such it took me three months to get a mortgage-the stress was incredible. For me it was not so much about the value of my home, but the lack of credible comps. I can only hope for a rebound.....someday.

Belle

12voltman59

Mar 26, 2008, 10:53 PM

alaskacouple

Mar 27, 2008, 2:18 AM

We share the sentiments of sympathy about the stress and suffering that many innocent people are dealing with because of this mess. The excesses of a few have hurt many I think. But for what it's worth - Alaska experienced a severe housing crash in the late 1980's. Prices and speculation had been building since the boom days of the Trans Alaska Pipeline project. It all finally came tumbling down and it seemed like almost every third house was for sale. I had a friend (a respected professional) who just happened to be retiring and moving south at the time - he couldn't sell and eventually just walked away from his house. I know another person who bought the home of their dreams right at the high point of the market - they stuck it out and made their payments and now their home is worth much much more than they paid. The point is, if you have bought a home because you like it and want to continue living there - well, this current crisis will pass in time and you should just enjoy your home.

One of the reasons I wanted to discuss this topic is because I can remember the day my folks upgraded to a better house (we moved from 3 rooms into 5!). We were not wealthy by any means, but I recall them paying cash for the house. IMO, we have forgotten that a house is first and foremost a home. In the quest for bigger and better many have overextended themselves with mortgages that will burden them for the rest of their lives. And in the mad rush, banks have learned that they can make huge profits on this never ending cycle of borrowing - thus they have made more and more money available. The builders likewise have learned that they can build bigger and bigger homes knowing that the banks will provide the "funny money". Thus, home prices continue to escalate. I don't know about the other parts of the country, but up here it is hard to find a new built modest home - all of the builders have gone to the bigger units since they know that the banks will loan us the money for them. I hate to say it, but easy credit is a huge factor in all of this - if we had to all save and buy what we could afford, I think the house prices would be more in line with our incomes and more people would own homes.

And 'HighEnergy', if nothing else of value comes from this thread the information you have offered is worth having started it. I have never heard of a short sale but it sounds encouraging. I am also glad to hear a realtor agree that the market needed to have a correction. It's not that I have anything against people making money, it's just that our homes represent that place of stability and sanctuary in our lives. To see this blessing becoming more and more difficult to obtain (especially for the young people and the working poor) is truly a sad day for this society. I think all of us here would appreciate any tid-bits of advice and wisdom that you as a professional might feel inclined to offer here. (I've sent you a PM so you might tell us a bit more how to go about this short sale.)

HighEnergy

Mar 27, 2008, 9:16 AM

AlaskaCouple, you are right. Houses should be primarily people's homes and this market should correct pricing so they can be that again. There are good investors who buy and fix up homes and put them back on the market at fair prices and some homes need major rehabs that the average person cannot do. The investors can get this work done at a cheaper rate than the rest of us, so they have their place. As I drive around the thrilling metropolis of Dayton, Ohio I see a lot of homes that are empty and need to be fixed up. I prefer to see that happening than new builds. I volunteer with Habitat, but sometimes it bothers me to know that we are building new instead of fixing what we have. The only good thing is they are using lots in the city, not building on virgin land.

You are also correct on the size of houses. I look at the newer homes and wonder who in the hell needs a house that big and think of the effect of global warming in the utility use of a McMansion!

I've put out feelers to see if I can find you a good realtor in your area. I work with a network of folks who do short sales all over the country, so I should be able to find you someone versed in the process. I did check out your local mls and noted that you can't search for short sales as a regular consumer, but a realtor should be able to help you.

Anyone else who is interested is welcome to PM me. I'll see what I can find out for you.

HighEnergy

Mar 27, 2008, 9:43 AM

BTW, if you are sitting in a house that you've got loans on for more than it's worth, the short sale process can help you. This is happening more and more with banks giving 100% loans, or giving folks lines of credit on their homes, coupled with the falling market.

There is a lot of misinformation about the short sale process and it takes a lot more work than a typical house sale, so lots of realtors can't be bothered with it. But there are some of us who specialize in this weird process.

If you want more info about it, I'll happily share my knowledge with you. You can PM me here.

Michael623

Mar 27, 2008, 10:18 AM

I have been a real estate appraiser for 22 years. I am governed by federal and state law in my profession. IMO, one of the problems with inflated values is not only appraisers who "climb in bed with" lenders but Realtors as well. This is how it works. A refinance transaction where the loan rep makes a commission and they need a certain appraised value, the loan rep engages a appraiser who will "hit" the needed value cuz of he doesn't then they won't be asked to do another appraisal. A sale! A Realtor takes a buyer to a lender and tells the lender what appraiser they want the lender to use. Of course this appraiser will "hit" the sale price cuz if they don't then the Realtor won't bring any business back to the lender and the appraiser won't get any more work. Believe me this is how it goes. I know of Realtors who have a list of appraisers they won't use. A Realtors definition of value is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. I am happy to say this is all starting to change somewhat with laws against pressuring an appraiser. I am still waiting to see how this goes as NAR has a strong lobby and Realtors always seem to find away around things like this. I for one do not HIT values, which effects my income.

This along with builders over building, they will build as long as lenders loan them the money to do so regardless of supply and demand, is part of the reason for appreciating values from 2002 to mid 2005. Value is created by supply and demand and the availability of money. Is it a good thing values are decreasing? I've read where this is the first time in history that has happened but that's a pretty broad statement. The area I live in is not experiencing decreasing values but a stable market. I've lived in areas where the rest of the country was booming and we were being hit hard. I personally don't see it as bad, maybe it's about time the actions of some lenders, appraisers and Realtors was exposed.

alaskacouple

Mar 27, 2008, 12:51 PM

HighEnergy

Mar 27, 2008, 2:24 PM

Michael, you are very right. My first listing ended up being a short sale. I met the guy online and he told me he bought his house for $86k and had to sell it 6 months later because he was being shipped to Iraq. I valued it at $56k but could see where they came up with the appraised $86k. When I drove around to look at the comps that were priced higher, they were all abandoned buildings. Dayton, Ohio has the largest number of out of state owners in the country, and it's become easy for them to run scams here. The realtor that initially sold them the house brought a buyer this 9 months later for the $56k. I ended up with 2 potential buyers and when I commented that I wasn't sure it would appraise at the $59k she was offering to cover closing costs, she said she could have it appraised at any amount she wanted it to. I wish I had that on tape. She specializes in the lower price bracket end of town and is robbing folks blind. Her karma is catching up to her, as her business is about to go defunk.

Alaska, your appraiser is supposed to outside of the deal so you cannot hire him or her directly. What you need to do for any house you are thinking about buying is have your realtor run comparable sales on it. Also, go to a good bank, not a mortgage broker if you can.

You need to keep your budget in mind. I had a very young couple come to me with a preapproval letter saying they could handle a $1200/month mortgage. It turned out after they made an offer on a house that between the two of them, they earned $2k/month. Um, no, that won't work. Stay around what you are paying for rent now, and take that tax return money to do things to your house to improve it's value. There is nothing worse than being house poor and worried about losing a place you'll come to love!

Charlie41

Mar 27, 2008, 5:35 PM

Thanks for the info Michael.

Seems like I had heard of something like this going on but it's good to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about. It sounds like a person should research and hire their own appraiser - is that the way it works? And how do you know if the one you choose is honest?

In my area of the county the market is pretty good. Not dropping much in price yet. Sales are way down as everyone is scared the economy may go bottoms up. My home is still worth what it was 2 or 3 years ago.

alaskacouple

Mar 27, 2008, 6:19 PM

In my area of the county the market is pretty good. Not dropping much in price yet. Sales are way down as everyone is scared the economy may go bottoms up. My home is still worth what it was 2 or 3 years ago.
Alaska is pretty much the same story, although I have seen values beginning to drop in the smaller towns. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I think most of us (at least those with kids around) can see the damage done by the rapid rise in home values - but, what about all of the good hard working folks who have bought in the past several years? It's difficult to jump up and say that for the good of the country they should loose their nest egg! Tough situation all around.

We seem to be stuck in a self destructive pattern in this society - for example, why are all of the good paying jobs located in the metro areas? If we had the sense to spread out a bit there would be plenty of land and plenty of affordable housing - but as it is, we keep massing to the cities because that is where the work is and commuting a 100 miles to where we can afford to live! It seems that we all act as individuals w/o any forethought to our actions (that goes for individuals, corporations and governments)- maybe were not as smart as we thought?

alaskacouple

Mar 27, 2008, 6:22 PM

Alaska, your appraiser is supposed to outside of the deal so you cannot hire him or her directly. What you need to do for any house you are thinking about buying is have your realtor run comparable sales on it. Also, go to a good bank, not a mortgage broker if you can.

So who actually hires the appraiser? Sounds like I don't want that to be done by the realtor.

HighEnergy

Mar 27, 2008, 8:15 PM

So who actually hires the appraiser? Sounds like I don't want that to be done by the realtor.

Your bank does. They want to make sure it's worth putting their money into. Sometimes, as Michael points out, that doesn't work either. That why I say, make sure you are with a reputable bank and get good comps on your own.

darkeyes

Mar 27, 2008, 8:19 PM

Alla this House pricin nonsense u lot hav ova ther is certainly havin its effect ova ere as ya wud expect. The US economy catches a cold so dus the rest of us .. hav neva bought a place, hav eitha rented or lived wiv me mum an dad at thers or me x hubbies at his an of course now at the home Kate's mum an dad bot 30 years ago. So we hav no mortgage an pay no rent..lukky us... pity Kate had 2 lose er parents for us 2 liv wer we do but spose thats life..

Wot gets me is the cost of even the most simple housin nowadays an the size of mortgages peeps hav 2 take out 2 buy ther home... me lives in the most expensive place outside of London for property an tho price rises r slowin down they r still for the mo..risin. wen most peeps earn in this city an average wage of around 400 quid a week..how the devil dus they manage mortages of 200 thousand quid an even more??? Its no surprise that moren more peeps r defaultin an havin ther homes repossessed... the economy is now slwin down pretty kwik an things r gonna get worse fore they get betta... the misery created by irresponsible lenders an our want for eva more plush homes is certainly bringin chickens home 2 roost! An Govts r not exempt from responsibility etha..if an wen the economy recovers will lenders borrowers an govts act more responsibly..will they hell as like...an afta a few years we will b bak 2 anotha crash of sum sort or otha...

TF we don hav a debt on our home... jus cudn take the stress...

Bisexualnewbie

Mar 27, 2008, 8:19 PM

I used to be a Realtor in Colorado, hoping to get my license soon here in Vegas.
I had a beautiful home in Colorado Springs, 2 car garage, 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, tri-level. I earned around the same then as I do now, about $48,000 a year
I had it for about 2 years and my mortgage was just $1056 a month on a 30yr fixed, then the county of El Paso in Colorado ruled that I had to pay $1584 a month for my child support of 2 kids.
I lost the house and luckily had a short sale to avoid foreclosure.
Where was my help from the government when I was losing my home????Fucking Bureaucrat's
And yes I'm bitter about it too!

MistressLiz

Mar 27, 2008, 10:02 PM

Your food is transported by truck exclusively. Seen a truckers income lately?
Seen where his and your cash is going? How long will the trucks roll at 6 buck a gallon gas? How much is your food going to cost? The farmer needs diesel too. Petrochemicals and your own shit grow your food now...

No..this is not fucking good at all...........

Let me tell you about truckers income: This sucks... one guy I know made $3000.00 USD (including fuel surcharges) last week. He fueled up and it cost $2000.00, the company he is leased to charges a fuel surcharge which gets charged to the customer.. ie if he delivers containers to Walmart etc... the company he works for charges them a percentage of what the load costs to deliver. This surcharge is being skimmed by the company and the cash to the driver is not even close to what the fuel increase is weekly, and mind you it goes up weekly (4.00 a gal in New England) The 1000 left after fueling does not even take into account the truck payment, (1800.00 month) insurance, tolls, highway use taxes, repairs (tires are 400- 800 each) theres 10 on the tractor alone. He is thinking of letting the bank come take it the truck away. He is paying these guys to work and the surcharges and bullshit fee's charged are just going to get passed along to the consumer and he'll see the effect on his pocketbook from that end as well. If there is money for household expenses after all is said and done.
The truckers around here are talking about a strike. April 1-5. What the hell are we going to do if they don't roll? Thats almost a week, produce comes in daily, sundry items we can hold off on but milk coming from farms... that will go bad, produce sitting in reefer boxes will rot as will frozen items sitting for days, that stuff has to move. The containers come by rail, and then get trucked out, if those don't move from rail yards the rail will get messed up stalling things for weeks. Some of the big companies around here are thinking of halting all deliveries. Word on the highway is if there are trucks on the road on the 4th there will be shots fired.

Take a look at the "record profits" realized by the big oil companies...

As for the farmer.. shit we've sent all that to Mexico. We have no idea what chemicals are going into our food. I have a garden and a freezer, this year is going to be an extra large garden year for me... I will not buy anything I don't have to. I can't afford it.

MistressLiz

Mar 27, 2008, 10:14 PM

I completely went off on a tangent on that guys.. sorry... I replied before reading to the end of the thread.. I'm pretty rabid about the trucking industry, lotta friends out there.

I hope that not too many here got stuck in the sub-prime in our area, or one of those interest only loans... I work for a mortgage broker as a sideline to help out some of my self employed clients (I do bookkeeping and taxes) and the loans they were passing off to some people... I consequently did not take many applications because of the terms they were passing off just to get someone a loan. I only considered it when someone was really stuck and the loan I could get them wouldn't screw them later. The Variable rates are all coming up now one girl I know saw her payment go up by 500 a month..

HighEnergy

Mar 27, 2008, 10:50 PM

MistressLiz

Mar 27, 2008, 11:31 PM

Thank you Liz. It's good to have a little insight on how another industry works. I've wondered how truckers are handling the $4+ diesel prices in our area. I hadn't heard about the strike and I'll be interested to see who's on the road next week.

Of course, utilitizing more rail transport for goods would be better for our environment, but I hate to see truckers out of work too.

Alot of our goods already move by rail. Most do... BUT perishable items really cant, the rail is too unreliable. things will spoil etc.. Trucking is going to hell in a handbasket, larger companies are eating up the little guy who can't compete with their pricing.. the new Hours of Service rules for truckers passed by the government are killing them. They cheat on logbooks so they can work more hours and make a buck.. It used to be a lucrative business... no longer so..

alaskacouple

Mar 27, 2008, 11:48 PM

Alot of our goods already move by rail. Most do... BUT perishable items really cant, the rail is too unreliable. things will spoil etc.. Trucking is going to hell in a handbasket, larger companies are eating up the little guy who can't compete with their pricing.. the new Hours of Service rules for truckers passed by the government are killing them. They cheat on logbooks so they can work more hours and make a buck.. It used to be a lucrative business... no longer so..

There was a piece on the TV News a few days ago that basically reiterated much of what you have said - in summary they said it may be the end of independent truckers - which leaves only the large corporate trucking firms as they buy their fuel in 10,000 gallon lots and pay lower labor costs. But I don't think Mage was speaking so much about the 'evils' of the individual trucker per-sey, but the fact that the cost of fuel in general is going to have a big impact on everyone in the coming years.

I think the garden is a great idea!

the mage

Mar 28, 2008, 8:29 AM

Big oil quite successfully wiped out any hope of re building the railroads as a delivery system of commodities. The tracks are gone.
Trains haul big bulk only.

Truckers feed you all and cloth you too.

I was one from 72 to 89 I quit when they changed the rules.
I made 50 grand in 87 in 88 the rules changes cut it to 35.
I quit in early 89.

They dont make 30 grand now, 20 years of inflation later..
.

check on the salaries of the oil co execs under Bushco...
Check out the income of the top 1000 earners in your country and see how much they've gone UP>....