Sexual Ethics Question

[MarieDelta]

Here is a something that has been running around in my brain-

Suppose there is a couple, one of the members is bi the other is undetermined(bi / straight, your call.) They've an agreement that the bi spouse can sleep with MOSS(members of the same sex), but not the opposite sex.

Suppose the Bi spouse sleeps with a transexual whose targeted gender ( a male to female's targeted gender is female) is opposite to theirs. Is this a breach of the agreement or just a loophole? Is the bi person not breaking the spirit of the agreement?

How should the transperson react to someone they know is married but allowed to sleep with MOSS?

Should it make any difference to them?

What would you do, if you were the spouse of this person, or you were the transperson in this scenario?

[shortandsassy]

talk to both of them at the same time. Let them know your trans and find out both mind sets, otherwise there could be trouble.

[thesea]

for me im more comfortable with bf being with or having bfs than gfs cus they are not direct competition, trans people feel like a whole new category to me so even if he was with a m to f trans it would not feel the same as him haveing another gf. In the end polyamory is about feelings not rules so you have to keep checking in with your partner to make sure you are both comfortable. I think its the same with swinging.

[arana]

It depends on the couple and if they've discussed and determined how they feel about it. I do think the partner should know a transexual is also a possibility, not just the same sex, to have a more honest communications as to what is and isn't acceptable within their agreements. Otherwise it can be used as a loophole saying "well they are still a man/woman technically and you said it was ok". That is not only disresptful to your partner but the person you are with as well. To me even if the trans. person hasn't gone thru all the operations and such, they are still the opposite sex in mind and body...and should be treated as such. :2cents:

[eddy10]

If a couple is open and truthful with each other, they should be open and truthful enough to discuss the trans possibility as well. The root of most partner problems is deceit and lies. Take those two out of the equation and the relationship has a much better chance to survive.

[allbimyself]

MD, I don't think there is a "one answer fits all" kinda thing here. Despite how you feel about yourself, it depends on how the SO of the guy feels about you. Different women are going to have different feelings.

[diB4u]

Hmm, well Marie, personally it wouldn't bother me whatsoever.

Correct me if im wrong, so hypothetically my bf told me that i can sleep with someone of the same sex. So i opted for a transgenderd woman. She is a woman.

Maybe its me, but i dont see the problem whatsoever but u know its me lol.

But the transgenderd woman Is a woman...Thats how i view the world - a transman is a man....

Surly it depends on the couple.

Why?????

[ambi53mm]

Here is a something that has been running around in my brain-

Suppose there is a couple, one of the members is bi the other is undetermined(bi / straight, your call.) They've an agreement that the bi spouse can sleep with MOSS(members of the same sex), but not the opposite sex.

Suppose the Bi spouse sleeps with a transexual whose targeted gender ( a male to female's targeted gender is female) is opposite to theirs. Is this a breach of the agreement or just a loophole? Is the bi person not breaking the spirit of the agreement?

How should the transperson react to someone they know is married but allowed to sleep with MOSS?

Should it make any difference to them?

What would you do, if you were the spouse of this person, or you were the transperson in this scenario?

Great questions....and hopefully I've understood where ethics would come into play.

If I were the bi male (and please don't be offended) I would determine in my own mind that which would work to my advantage. If the agreements were set down that I could only have sex with a member of my own sex...then although I may surfacely treat the Transsexual with all the respect and consideration of the gender she's representing...I could rationalize that no rules have been broken because this is a male in transition. Is it ethical?... No..Not for me…but ethics are subjective.

If I were the transsexual I'd probably feel insulted because the guy in this scenario is dictating how he chooses to perceive me without any consideration to what my feelings are...he's taking advantage of a loophole in a very gray area and is basically ignoring the fact that I am a human being and is seeing me as little more than a sex object.

If I were the spouse and the wife of the person in this scenario I'd feel that the agreement has been broken and the line crossed. I would hopefully have enough ethical perspective of the transsexual to acknowledge her chosen gender and enough respect to act accordingly.

Mrs Ambi :female: says" Agreements are generally reached to avoid emotional button pushing".... in other words...she'd kick my ass if I pulled a stunt like that...LOL....(no more questions posed to the peanut gallery around here!!):rolleyes:

Ambi:)

[Bluebiyou]

A closed relationship is a closed relationship.
An open one is open.
The semantics/details are an issue between the couple.
Yours easily falls at the very edge, even if you are post-op.
Remember, there is always a danger when involved with a couple (in many ways); be ready to run at a moment's notice.
Only a fool stands between two lovers fighting.

[MarieDelta]

Hmm, well Marie, personally it wouldn't bother me whatsoever.

Correct me if im wrong, so hypothetically my bf told me that i can sleep with someone of the same sex. So i opted for a transgenderd woman. She is a woman.



Ahh but what if it was a FTM?

Thats the question

[DiamondDog]

If I were in a situation where I thought that the person who I was with was cheating on the person they have an open relationship with or going against what they'd agreed upon with their partner, with me I'd bail since I don't like being someone's piece on the side or the idea that I'd be a homewrecker because of someone else's infidelity and lack of communication.

[MarieDelta]

talk to both of them at the same time. Let them know your trans and find out both mind sets, otherwise there could be trouble.

What if they aren't both available, and one partner is coming on to you?


for me im more comfortable with bf being with or having bfs than gfs cus they are not direct competition, trans people feel like a whole new category to me so even if he was with a m to f trans it would not feel the same as him haveing another gf. In the end polyamory is about feelings not rules so you have to keep checking in with your partner to make sure you are both comfortable. I think its the same with swinging.

Absolutly Open and honest communication is what makes a realtionship works. It does depend on what the partner thinks, and what the transperson thinks.


It depends on the couple and if they've discussed and determined how they feel about it. I do think the partner should know a transexual is also a possibility, not just the same sex, to have a more honest communications as to what is and isn't acceptable within their agreements. Otherwise it can be used as a loophole saying "well they are still a man/woman technically and you said it was ok". That is not only disresptful to your partner but the person you are with as well. To me even if the trans. person hasn't gone thru all the operations and such, they are still the opposite sex in mind and body...and should be treated as such. :2cents:

I agree with you Arana, its a loophole and for one person to take advantage of it, shows their disrespect to both their partner and the transperson in question. IMO.




If a couple is open and truthful with each other, they should be open and truthful enough to discuss the trans possibility as well. The root of most partner problems is deceit and lies. Take those two out of the equation and the relationship has a much better chance to survive.

yes, I agree


A closed relationship is a closed relationship.
An open one is open.
The semantics/details are an issue between the couple.
Yours easily falls at the very edge, even if you are post-op.
Remember, there is always a danger when involved with a couple (in many ways); be ready to run at a moment's notice.
Only a fool stands between two lovers fighting.

So if offered the oportunity with a natal female, you would run? even if you knew the Husband was accepting?

[diB4u]

Ahh but what if it was a FTM?

Thats the question



Hmm, what was the question again lol.



"Suppose there is a couple, one of the members is bi the other is undetermined(bi / straight, your call.) They've an agreement that the bi spouse can sleep with MOSS(members of the same sex), but not the opposite sex.

Suppose the Bi spouse sleeps with a transexual whose targeted gender ( a male to female's targeted gender is female) is opposite to theirs."


Right by your question then, the transman and the man has sex. Still there both men. So he's a F2M still male.

[MarieDelta]

If the person is Male the person would be MtF, if the person is female then the other person would be FtM.

See the dilema now?

[diB4u]

If the person is Male the person would be MtF, if the person is female then the other person would be FtM.

See the dilema now?



Marie my brain cell is hurting. What are u trying to say?

Maybe its my brain that isnt registering but I cant see the problem either way.

F2M= Male to me

M2F= female to me.

My brain cell is throbbing in all this confusing.

:2cents:

If I was the transgender person then the same sex relationship would be male on male.

[the mage]

Here is a something that has been running around in my brain-

Suppose there is a couple, one of the members is bi the other is undetermined(bi / straight, your call.) They've an agreement that the bi spouse can sleep with MOSS(members of the same sex), but not the opposite sex.

Suppose the Bi spouse sleeps with a transexual whose targeted gender ( a male to female's targeted gender is female) is opposite to theirs. Is this a breach of the agreement or just a loophole? Is the bi person not breaking the spirit of the agreement?

How should the transperson react to someone they know is married but allowed to sleep with MOSS?


......................My Lady knows I'm Bi..and I play with men not women..
I have a close friend who's M/F trans
She self identifies as a Female. That is the criteria. We do not play. It would be cheating.

What would you do, if you were the spouse of this person, or you were the transperson in this scenario?

talk talk talk.. before play.

[shameless agitator]

I see transgender as the target gender, so if I'd told a gf she could sleep with women but not men, I would be cool with mtf, but not with ftm. That's what I tell myself anyway. Honestly though, I think where they were in the transition would make a difference to me whether I wanted it to or not. I wouldn't blame my partner or accuse them of cheating, but I probably would feel more threatened and jealous if she was still early in the transition. If I were the transgender person, I would want to talk to both partners & make sure the whole arrangement was OK. I tend to do that anyway because I'm not generally going to take somebody's word for it that they're allowed to have additional playmates.

[Skater Boy]

Assuming that the transperson is completely certain that their gender is that of their "target gender", and that BOTH spouses know this, then IMHO the spouse would be breaching his/her agreement. The transperson is well within his/her rights to sleep with whomever he/she wants, but should obviously consider the implications (moral and otherwise) of his/her actions.

My conclusions are based on the assumption that any degree of "certainty" can actually be made regarding gender (although I suspect that in reality this may not be so easy). I do respect the individual's own "inate" sense of certainty, but am only too aware that humans are only human, and sometimes get things wrong. That said, Marie hasn't implied that there is any doubt as to transperson's gender, so I shall stick with my above 2 cents.

I guess some of it also comes down to whether the "other" spouse defines gender in terms of physiology or... "other parameters". But I think most people are open to idea that gender is not necessarily dictated by physiology these days.

:2cents:

[jem_is_bi]

Assuming that the transperson is completely certain that their gender is that of their "target gender", and that BOTH spouses know this, then IMHO the spouse would be breaching his/her agreement. The transperson is well within his/her rights to sleep with whomever he/she wants, but should obviously consider the implications (moral and otherwise) of his/her actions.

My conclusions are based on the assumption that any degree of "certainty" can actually be made regarding gender (although I suspect that in reality this may not be so easy). I do respect the individual's own "inate" sense of certainty, but am only too aware that humans are only human, and sometimes get things wrong. That said, Marie hasn't implied that there is any doubt as to transperson's gender, so I shall stick with my above 2 cents.

I guess some of it also comes down to whether the "other" spouse defines gender in terms of physiology or... "other parameters". But I think most people are open to idea that gender is not necessarily dictated by physiology these days.
:2cents:

Is this a legal issue? Was all of that put into a contract, signed and filed with the proper local, state and federal departments.
I doubt you can take the issue to court.

I recommend that if you tread in a "gray area of an agreement", get a definition of what is ok before you do something not ok.
How do you know if this is one of those issues? Answer: Somewhere in you brain, you hear alarm bells.

[FalconAngel]

As with all sexual situations where one or more people are involved with your sex life, all of the possibilities should be addressed and ground rules established beforehand; INCLUDING involvement with trans persons.

[Skater Boy]

Is this a legal issue? Was all of that put into a contract, signed and filed with the proper local, state and federal departments.
I doubt you can take the issue to court.

I recommend that if you tread in a "gray area of an agreement", get a definition of what is ok before you do something not ok.
How do you know if this is one of those issues? Answer: Somewhere in you brain, you hear alarm bells.

I doubt that it was/would be a "legal" agreement. It would probably be a non-legally-binding "verbal contract" of sorts. BUT, an infidelity is an infidelity, regardless of whether one has the law behind them. FalconAngel is right though... if there is any uncertainty as to what is acceptable behaviour within the relationship and what is not, then it should be clearly addressed before any action is taken.

[rainbowmonk]

Wow what a big topic... it is great to see such a response to topics that involve us all. I agree that it should be all about comunication. Having been in a situation with a couple I found it was a good idea to get to know them both that way I was able to find out more of what they were looking for in the arangement that they had. The one thing that I forgot to overlook was my heart... I found that the closer I got to the situation the more I realized that it could only be for fun and if I wanted to find something deaper then I would have to look elsewhere...

The fact of the mater is there is no set rule and you must find out what all parties concerned feal. I mean what they really feal... they may say one thing but when it comes right down to it they will mean the total oposite. Be careful of their fealings and yours.....

Chears,

The Monk:)

[eddy10]

Since the couple in question have been frank enough to discuss and agree on some ground rules in the first place, I would think they would and should be frank enough to discuss this question as well ... before any overt action is taken. Why ruin a good thing?

[markvmen]

True - they need to communicate and get their rules set.

But why this rule in the first place? Why not just do 3-ways!!! :bibounce: :three: :bibounce:

[void()]

My wife allows me to enjoy the company of men outside our marriage. She did allow for women outside, but we've both agreed from experience that doesn't suit. So, I would have to decline any form of serious relationship with a transformer going from male to female. I may be a very good friend, try to understand, be there for the transformer as support but no romance.

A lady is a lady in my view, just a matter of respect for everyone concerned. I'd not see such a situation as a loophole. That'd be akin to going out and sleeping with a guy without first allow my wife to know. We're open but like to watch out for one another, so she likes being able to at least meet a guy socially. I'm the same if she desires a guy outside.

We do not 'play' together. We do talk amongst ourselves though, privacy is respected unless there may be a question of endangerment. This is our way, it isn't the way we tell everyone to be, nor do expect such. We do appreciate respect and courtesy. We are not 'looking' outside our marriage to leave one another. We are happily married and desire / intend upon remaining that way.

Transformers do present a bit of an ethical challenge, though if respect is brought to bear the challenge falls away. I try being as diplomatic and gentle in defusing any hints at serious relationships with transformers, should / if they arise. As I said, I can a good friend only. Now, if the transformer is female to male and wants to seek a relationship that might be considered. :) But, anything sexual would and could wait until the cocoon had finished creating the butterfly, so to speak.

Thank you for these questions Marie. Must now dash off to attend some household chores before work. Run it slow everyone, peace.

[rock-g'sguy]

Here is a something that has been running around in my brain-

Suppose there is a couple, one of the members is bi the other is undetermined(bi / straight, your call.) They've an agreement that the bi spouse can sleep with MOSS(members of the same sex), but not the opposite sex.

Suppose the Bi spouse sleeps with a transexual whose targeted gender ( a male to female's targeted gender is female) is opposite to theirs. Is this a breach of the agreement or just a loophole? Is the bi person not breaking the spirit of the agreement?

How should the transperson react to someone they know is married but allowed to sleep with MOSS?

Should it make any difference to them?

What would you do, if you were the spouse of this person, or you were the transperson in this scenario?

IMO, If the Bi-spouse (woman)is aloud to have MOSS, if she is with the for say woman side of the TG (MtoF) and there is no male parts invalved then I would have to think there is nothing wrong, but if the woman wants the male part, then yes it is a problem. Same goes with a bi-male, if he is aloud MOSS then it must only be with the Male part of the TG. As a bi-male I am aloud MOSS, so if I was with a TG, I wound not be with the female part, but the male part. I don't think I could do a (FtoM) TG, (unless they have already have had their surgury) for me that is being with a woman and that to me is cheating.. Cheating is not aloud and that could end a relationship.

[Eddie altamonte]

IMO, If the Bi-spouse (woman)is aloud to have MOSS, if she is with the for say woman side of the TG (MtoF) and there is no male parts invalved then I would have to think there is nothing wrong, but if the woman wants the male part, then yes it is a problem. Same goes with a bi-male, if he is aloud MOSS then it must only be with the Male part of the TG. As a bi-male I am aloud MOSS, so if I was with a TG, I wound not be with the female part, but the male part. I don't think I could do a (FtoM) TG, (unless they have already have had their surgury) for me that is being with a woman and that to me is cheating.. Cheating is not aloud and that could end a relationship.
This is making me so dizzy!