Swear Allegiance to Her??? No ta!

[darkeyes]

The Government over here is considering a report which recommends that all school kids in England and Wales take an oath of allegiance to the queen and the State when they leave school. A few years ago it was begun for people who applied for naturalisation and is now a fact of life.

Anyone who has read a word of mine will know just what my attitude to this is. Already the Scottish Government have said its not a starter.. and many parents have treated it as laughable.. it is simply not the way we do things over here..and should never be. I am too old for school, but do hope to be a teacher at High School in a little over a year, and quite simply culd never take part in or have anything to do with any such sick making ceremony. It is done now in a more extreme form in the US, but that is the way the American system has grown up. It has never been part of ours. Is the state so unsure of itself, and the Monarchy so uncertain that they must tie people to an oath to try and ensure their loyalty? I am a republican and would abolish monarchy tomorrow if I could. My partner and I have two young children who we could never allow to go through such a ceremony. Many parents feel the same, especially parents north of the border.

Swearing an oath of allegiance to the state also is a de facto abrogation of our democratic rights as it potentially empowers the state to tie out words and actions. I am loyal to no state, but humanity. I love my country, and would live no where else. But no oath of loyalty will ever commit me to blindly following government dictat. My loyalty to my country knows bounds... and I wil not alow the state to limit our childrens freedom of action but something which is quite simply unnecessary and means nothing, except in this day and age where we have a society which is increasingly reducing our freedoms, and I for one will do as I always have ..fought peacefully as best I can for the freedoms of all the peoples not just of my country but of all...

I actually believe the Government will not proceed with the recommendation..I hope not anyway, but if it does, it opens the way to reduction in many of our democratic rights to fight for those things in which we believe... potentially, considering much of the antagonism toward the UK as state by many of its citizens of nations in what is known as the celtic fringe, it may just be a cause celebre for natonalists, and hasten the demise of that unified state. That depends on whether the Government proceeds and insists on it in the schools of Scotland and Wales... if it insists on it for the kids in only English Schools, and not of the other 3 countries in the Union, it then leads to yet a further division between England and the others.. and potentially breed resentment of the English British majority
of UK citizens/subjects or whatever you wish to call them.. and if it goes over the heads of the other parliaments of the UK, it creates a tension in the smaller countries.

This is an issue which should never have been raised. But it has.. now somehow we have to make sure it is stuffed back into its box and forgotten about I just hope it can be done quietly and easily..

[Bluebiyou]

the Jehovah's Witnesses refused to swear alliegance to the Third Riech; for this they were sent to the concentration camps. The very few of all those who were at the concentration camps because of their individual standing for their faith (Jews were not released for swearing alliegance).
Somewhat similiarly, Jehovah's Witnesses faced persecution in America for not saying the "pledge of allegience" in the 1950s and 60s.
I would certainly give my life for my country. It is one of the greatest (in a number of aspects) since mankind began establishing government.
But requiring the pledge of allegience... it's something I do of free will... but requireing - takes away from that greatness.
I don't agree with the applying of social security numbers to all men great and small. I am especially fearful of that taking one step further to bar coding... an evil of biblical proportions.
Yes, Darkeyes, I agree with you. In a trully free society, all must be able to devote themselves to the country/philosophy as an act of free will only. That is what we fight and strive for in the first place.
We're all on the slippery slope. Just look at the homeland security act and all the potential bs there.

[12voltman59]

Great post Dark---I agree with you on that----these empty sort of "hail to the mother or father or homeland" kind of crap we having going these days is scary----I do like my country but I have never been one who goes with the notion "my country--right or wrong!"

What is bad--and we had it here in the states----it seemed that people who went to work for the Bush administration had this notion that they had not sworn to uphold the Constitution and such as which is what we do when we take on the role of positions like being in the military, law enforcement, poltical positions, etc. but we had a crew who thought they had sworn a loyalty oath to President Bush.

A case in point---but one of the people who worked in the Bush Department of Justice had been brought before the Senate committee looking into the firing of the nine US District Attorneys was a young woman who had helped determine which of the attorneys would be canned----she told the Senate committee chairman Patrick Leahy that she had "sworn her loyalty to President Bush."

Leahy took a few moments to tell the young woman that she had not sworn a loyalty oath to President Bush---she had in fact sworn to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

That this woman, Monica Goodling--who was an attorney--was not cognizant of that fact is disturbing---but then again--she did graduate from Pat Roberston's Regent University Law School--a law school that barely got and maintains its accreditation. At one point--there were something like 150 graduates of Robertson's law school who worked in the Bush administration. They are taught not to be good stewards of the law--they are taught to serve "Jesus" at that law school.

Something more on Regent's: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/209660/150_graduates_of_pat_robertsons_college.html


I agree with ya Darkeyes----I would not want to make such a profession of "faith" of the kind you may be required to do soon.

I know I hate it when they talk about "homeland security" here in the US--for some reason---that term "homeland" conjures up images that I don't find comforting or reassuring---when I hear it--I feel I have to jump up while snapping my heels together--right arm outstretched and going "Seig Heil!" or maybe joining into a rousing chorus of The Internationale!!

[FalconAngel]

I see where you are coming from, Darkeyes.

I grew up with the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

That is our original Pledge of Allegiance, they added the "under God" part in the 1950's when Joe Macarthy had his witch hunt going for communists.

I never saw it as a pledge to any ruler, but to the American ideal as set forth in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. I stand by our governments founding principles because of that oath, even if it means standing against the actions of the government.

Now the pledge that your people may be asked to take is most likely different and more restrictive in it's wording, so it makes sense to fight it.

[Skater Boy]

The only Queen that I pledge allegiance to disbanded ages ago, when their lead-singer (may he rest in peace) died of AIDS.

:2cents:

[**Peg**]

Back in the 1950's, my classmates and I swore allegiance to Queen Elizabeth in school every morning... we sang "God Save the Queen", then we said our prayers. When I graduated school I got myself a social insurance card.

To this day, I still feel grateful for the sense of comfort and security I got from my upbringing as the child of a British military man. Even though all my family is gone, I still stand at attention when God Save the Queen is played prior to the Queen's address on Christmas day.

I was raised to respect the Queen, and the institution of the Monarchy itself. I greatly admire the woman who has held that job for so many years and has never faltered despite repeated attempts by her self-indulgent children to put her into an early grave.

When I grow up I hope to be half as dedicated as she. I use my social insurance card to collect my pension each month.

[Skater Boy]

Back in the 1950's, my classmates and I swore allegiance to Queen Elizabeth in school every morning... we sang "God Save the Queen", then we said our prayers. When I graduated school I got myself a social insurance card.

To this day, I still feel grateful for the sense of comfort and security I got from my upbringing as the child of a British military man. Even though all my family is gone, I still stand at attention when God Save the Queen is played prior to the Queen's address on Christmas day.

I was raised to respect the Queen, and the institution of the Monarchy itself. I greatly admire the woman who has held that job for so many years and has never faltered despite repeated attempts by her self-indulgent children to put her into an early grave.

When I grow up I hope to be half as dedicated as she. I use my social insurance card to collect my pension each month.

Oh, she's not without her merits, thats for sure. BUT, whether she rightfully commands such a high income, and deserves to have "allegiance" pledged to her by all those who happen to dwell in her Kingdom (Queendom?), is another matter altogether.

I do respect her. But I respect my freedom more.

I therefore pledge allegiance to myself.

:2cents: :tongue:

[DiamondDog]

How do you feel about British Nationalism?

[darkeyes]

Bout the same as me thinks of ne kinda nationalism.. 1 step offa fascism...am a socialist hun.. an socialism is a creed of internationalists... hence nationalism anathema.. nearest me gets 2 beina nationalist is shoutin for Scotland at football..an in end its bout the same 2 me as bawlin an screamin for me luffly jambos at club level...they r just me team.. the team for the place me lives.. moren that it becums unbearable... humanity is wot is important 2 me..an all otha livin things..not nations...

[Germanicus]

It could be argued that the pledge is superfluous since Great Britain has effectively been a republic since the "Glorious Revolution of 1688" and we've just had an hereditary presidential family.

[darkeyes]

It could be argued that the pledge is superfluous since Great Britain has effectively been a republic since the "Glorious Revolution of 1688" and we've just had an hereditary presidential family.

Bollox Germie babes... muah! Unelected heads of state of 1 family wich can dissolve parliament an dismiss govts an a few otha daft things don make us a republic.. dona matta ne way.. aint swearin ne allegiance 2 it.. live 2 do me bit 2 bring it down!!!

[tatooedpunk]

I agree with pretty much everything you say (even tho' i'm a hun lol)
There is no way i want my wee boy to swear alligience to a dinosaur,dont just mean the queen just an out-dated monarchy.We are Scots and though i hate Alex Salmonds "Poll tax" and his ability to pick fights with anything Wesminster has to say whether it benifits Scotland or not.I am a socialist and an EX labour voter shit sorry losing the plot a bit lol

[Germanicus]

Bollox Germie babes... muah! Unelected heads of state of 1 family wich can dissolve parliament an dismiss govts an a few otha daft things don make us a republic.. dona matta ne way.. aint swearin ne allegiance 2 it.. live 2 do me bit 2 bring it down!!!

The Queen has the power to dissolve parliament, etc., but its all notional since she or any other monarch before her has done so only on the advice of politicians. The idea that we aren't a republic in all but name rests upon the public relations image that the monarchy has invented for itself (most of the traditions associated with the monarchy in this country are nineteenth century inventions). Politicians act in her name, but she has no say.

I have more power than the head of state.

Muah, darling!