does the world really need to know ?

[Long Duck Dong]

I truly struggle with this question.....* why is it so important for the world to know about my personal life....*

I am bisexual.....have been since I was born.......

and often I see people talk about the issues and desires of coming out as a bisexual........and part of what they say, I struggle with

coming out to family, loved ones and friends, I understand...it makes it easier to bring home a partner of the same sex.... and not have them jump to the conclusion that you are gay / lesbian..... or you can bring home a partner of the opposite sex, and have them assume you are straight.....

its about having the opportunity to bring home, your partners and not feel so dammed awkward

but what about the workplace ???

do we need to be out in the workplace.....????

its a interesting question.....and also a argumentative one

when I am a employee of a firm in a workplace....I am there to work.....therefore my sexuality is not a factor........

as we know..... sexuality discrimination is against the law in some countries.....and its illegal to discriminate against people on the grounds of sexuality......

that raises the interesting question about sexuality in the workplace........
at what point does coming out as a person of a particular sexuality, become a factor .....???

the answer is simple.... when the person seeks to be recognised as a person of a certain sexuality, and have that are part of their workplace environment ...

for me, the customer / consumer...... I don't care about your sexuality ....unless it impacts on the level of service or quality of service that I am receiving.... and sadly.... I would be highly pissed off if I am not getting the full right of service and high level service that I expect as a paying customer / consumer, cos of who you happen to feel attracted to.

the employer is the same.... they hire you to do a job to the best of your ability and to earn your wage / salary, and not for who you are attracted to...

so is there truly a need to wear your sexuality on your sleeve in the workplace ???

unless you are working in a workplace environment that requires you to wear your sexuality on your sleeve, then the answer, mostly, is no...
workplace environments that may require you to be * out * in the work place, are places, are gay bars, sauna's etc etc etc

most forms of discrimination against people or a certain sexuality, is 95% of the time, a personal issue..... like homophobia, biphobia etc..

if we look at the military policy of * don't ask, don't tell * its classed as a form of discrimination

but there are two sides to the issue.......

sure it infringes on a persons rights to be a individual and be who they are...... but it also prevents a lot of the discrimination and personal resentment that some people have towards others....
in some cases, we can only wonder if friendly fire during a war is actually friendly fire, or deliberately aimed friendly fire

I often look at the pic of a cat walking past a line of dogs and think to myself... that we are often like that.... we have the attitude of * my right to be me and express myself is far greater than the rights of others to have a opinion and the right to express it *

sure, we have a right to be ourselves.......and to express ourselves....

but it comes down to one simple thing

should we have the right to express ourselves and act in a manner that can be offensive to others, and demand that they may not react / act in a manner that we find offensive and discriminative

its human nature to demand that we are seen and heard.... but deny others the same rights.....

and so the question stands..... does the world need to know.... or are we doing it cos we can ???

[Lorcan]

yeah...and when it 's the christmas party and we can all bring ourselves and a date, then i just bring my same-sex partner, and won't explain a thing to anyone. Won't that just make me the talk of the town.

Ya think when you're hired you can divorce your personal life from your worklife, but that's simply not true. How many times have you heard a workmate discuss what is happening in there personal life. All the time! Truth is, a savy employee knows this and will only employ you if he thinks you will fit in with thier work culture.

Yes, we are helping them discriminate against us every time we hide. We are doing it to ourselves, people!

[shameless agitator]

Well said Lorcan. I've always maintained that they get away with half the shit they pull on us because we let them. As long as we just roll over and take it, why should they stop??

[Long Duck Dong]

nods...I fully understand that......

but are we creating the very issue we are trying to resolve

to be honest..... if I knew that I was gonna be hiring a person whom may create a work place issue with their behievour or ideals.... then I would be inclined not to hire them, simply cos I hire employees to work, not to create more issues for me, the employer

but thats discrimination..... I am refusing to employ a person based on a aspect of them that may create work place issues.....
now as a employer, it is my role, to provide a stable and hassle free environment for all my employees.....but as a employer, I face the issue of dealing with possible accusations of discrimination....because I am not hiring people that may create a unstable and unsettled work place environment, based on the persons uniqueness

so my question in the original post is simply.......do I as a person, really need to create a unsettled situation in a work place..... and do I truly have the right to scream * discrimination * while knowing that my actions and opinions could disrupt the workplace to the point that it is costing my employer time and money to resolve something that they never created

also does my ability to work in a work place become better and more stable because I am telling people my sexuality... are my work ethics and output, improved because i tell people my personal life

remember this is not about being LGBT or hetero...... cos the same situation can arise with a gay person in a * straight * bar.....and a straight persons in a gay bar

[DiamondDog]

I don't care if the world knows.

I'm on enough sites where I'm out and candid enough, like this one, that if anyone really wanted to and knew what to look for they could see information about me and it's not a big deal.

As far as being out in the workplace goes I've done that before and it's not a big deal.

Heterosexuals don't get fired from their jobs because of their sexuality, or discriminated against in the workplace for being out as heterosexual and neither should we for being out as something other than heterosexual.

[Not2str8]

Duck,

A few points to ponder. Not everyone can conceal their sexual orientation as well as others. I'm sure you've seen men that are far more feminine than others. Or women that are far more masculine than "the norm." They may not have the luxury of "passing" for straight that others who are less obvious do. Since the level of "disruption" largely depends on the reactions of co-workers, rather than the actions of the "unique" employee, is the employer supposed to cater to their bigotry, just to keep peace in the workplace ? That very rationale was used in years past to keep Blacks, Women, Jews, Indians, Italians, Irishmen,...whoever was the favorite societal whipping-boy of the moment, from earning a living and taking his/her rightful place as a member of society. I don't think anyone should be denied the opportunity to earn a living because I, as an employer, have bigots in my workforce who may object.
Your original question was "....does the world really need to know ?" No, I suppose they don't. I don't go around making my sexuality an issue for everyone I meet, but I have that luxury. I can blend. Remember that millions can't. And why should they have to ? The progress that the GLBT community at large has made, is precisely because so many have refused to remain invisible. They have paid the price so not as many of us will have to. So when one of us is "out" in the workplace, and refuses to take shit for it, we make it easier for those who follow. A prime example is the "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" policy of the U.S. Military. To date, some 12,000 people have been discharged from the services solely for their sexual orientation. Today, an increasing majority of Generals see this as a huge policy blunder, and now advocate for letting all who want to serve, do so, regardless of sexual orientation. Once again, the "pioneers" paid the price so the next generation won't have to.
The second point being, if you are not "out", don't you wonder if people only like and respect you because of who they think you are, rather than who you really are ? What do you do when your co-workers feel free enough around you to engage in verbal fag-bashing? Do you go along, pretending to be one of the gang, so you won't have to out yourself ? Or do you stand up for yourself and others, by demanding that the attacks stop ? That takes courage, because you might just get fired for it. And the tragedy is that your firing in the vast majority of cases, would be entirely legal. In my humble opinion, that's why it's important for the world to know.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol ok, I am out..... but not that * out * that I would consider * sucking face * in front of my workmates.....

its not a case of hiding who I am.... but knowing that I have to work with the people.....and doing things that may create a disruptive workplace, may impact on my employment status

I am aware that I am covered by the workplace anti discrimination law, in nz..... but I am also highly aware that the same law doesn't make having personal opinions and feelings, illegal.....

I am waiting for the date to come that we, as a community, go too far....and ask one thing too much and then undo all the work that has been done in the way of equal rights

in nz, it is already happening.....

now instead of having the right to hug or kiss our same sex partner....... everybody lost the right to displays of affection in the workplace

what happened was the LGBT communities started complaining about displays of affection in the workplace, amongst heteros.... saying that it was offensive to some members of the LGBT community .... and pointing out that for the longest time, it was the reverse, with heteros saying that LGBT behievour was offensive to heteros

we simply went too far.......and everybody lost out

to me, revealing your sexuality in the workplace is fine..... as long as it doesn't disrupt the workplace.......but if you are never gonna talk about ya partners or ya personal life at workplace... is it really that important for people to know your sexuality......

[Falke]

If they find out, fine...if not,fine.

[dafydd]

lol ok, I am out..... but not that * out * that I would consider * sucking face * in front of my workmates.....

its not a case of hiding who I am.... but knowing that I have to work with the people.....and doing things that may create a disruptive workplace, may impact on my employment status


to me, revealing your sexuality in the workplace is fine..... as long as it doesn't disrupt the workplace.......but if you are never gonna talk about ya partners or ya personal life at workplace... is it really that important for people to know your sexuality......

doesn't that mean you're lying just to placate a prospective homophobic remark at work? isn't that like working in fear, constantly looking over your shoulder at when you might get found out? doesn't sound very comfortable.

it's not just about talking about ur partner that could land you in trouble. hiding your sexuality means you have to lie, or avoid, or collude on so many levels. i don't have a partner but my sexuality still impacted upon my work. I guess it depends on whether you see your sexuality as something you do in private or whether it forms part of your identity like your race, religion or gender might do. I think a lot more gay men would say it is their identity because it is a reaction to their opression. In a world free of homophobia you wouldn't have (hopefully) gay/straight/bi labels.

Anyway employers need to recognise they can't treat their LGBT employees like shit, and if they do it's going to cost them money. I just took my employer to court (today) over homophobic discrimination and won!

d

[MarieDelta]

As has been said before some of us have the luxury to be closeted. Is it reasonable that an employer would expect a productive workplace? Yes. At the expense of their employees rights? No.

Just because some homophobic idiot doesn't like that I am trans or bi, should that stop me from being myself? Why?

I understand common courtesy, and yeah I get that placing and unfair expectation on someone. That being said, my employer hired me along with all that implies.

If I am hiding this and someone makes a homophobic remark , then how is my production affected? If in my desire to remain closeted I hurt others and myself, then how does that help my employer?

If I am desperately depressed and distracted by these feelings then how does that help/ hurt my production?

By being out we actually help the employer, we are better employees because we are more able to concentrate on the task at hand, rather than being distracted by our status of 'out' or 'closeted'.

Do they need to know, not really? But we need for it not to be an issue either.

That just addresses the Bisexual issue. The trans issue is really not debatable, because at some point you are required (by standards of care) to live full time as the target gender. Which means being out (at least in the US) because the minute you turn in your SSN to your employer the folks over at the social security office send a notice that your number does not match the Identity that was submitted. Why? Because you are listed as male (or female) and are presenting as female (or male).

[diB4u]

As has been said before some of us have the luxury to be closeted. Is it reasonable that an employer would expect a productive workplace? Yes. At the expense of their employees rights? No.

Just because some homophobic idiot doesn't like that I am trans or bi, should that stop me from being myself? Why?

I understand common courtesy, and yeah I get that placing and unfair expectation on someone. That being said, my employer hired me along with all that implies.

If I am hiding this and someone makes a homophobic remark , then how is my production affected? If in my desire to remain closeted I hurt others and myself, then how does that help my employer?

If I am desperately depressed and distracted by these feelings then how does that help/ hurt my production?

By being out we actually help the employer, we are better employees because we are more able to concentrate on the task at hand, rather than being distracted by our status of 'out' or 'closeted'.

Do they need to know, not really? But we need for it not to be an issue either.

That just addresses the Bisexual issue. The trans issue is really not debatable, because at some point you are required (by standards of care) to live full time as the target gender. Which means being out (at least in the US) because the minute you turn in your SSN to your employer the folks over at the social security office send a notice that your number does not match the Identity that was submitted. Why? Because you are listed as male (or female) and are presenting as female (or male).



Exactly hun i really couldn've said that any better.

Do people at work know of my sexuality and gender issues- yeah they do.
In fact we was joking just a few days ago that when i attend my friend (from work)'s wedding reception the clothes that i can't wear. My other co-worker said, "no boots, deffently no boots!" and started to laugh.

A few at work know of my pansexuality, they just accept me for who i am.

But then i guess its who the person is.

I mean if there was a case of homophobia etc going on, then i think that my boss would want to know about it.

In my line of work- I'm just happy that I dont have to wear Girly. :eek:

:eek::eek::eek:


Not2str8- I'm hearing you about hiding who they are and muscline vs feminine but thats more about Gender identiy. Does sexual identity come into it? I get confused.


I guess it does boil down to where we live and who we are.

Locan- if i had a partner of the same sex, and she met me from work as long as no children was around whats the big deal (I am a childcare worker)- but i'm weird full stop when it comes to PSOA= publich shows of affection.

[bisexualinsocal]

No the world doesn't need to know. It doesn't need to be hidden, but the world doesn't need to know.

[Long Duck Dong]

doesn't that mean you're lying just to placate a prospective homophobic remark at work? isn't that like working in fear, constantly looking over your shoulder at when you might get found out? doesn't sound very comfortable.

Anyway employers need to recognise they can't treat their LGBT employees like shit, and if they do it's going to cost them money. I just took my employer to court (today) over homophobic discrimination and won!

d


I do not lie about my sexuality, I just do not rub it in peoples faces, then tell them what they can and can not do or say

if a person around me is homophobic, I accept it......it simply means that they do not agree with gay / les behievour or people.......

but if I am gonna ask them not to act or talk in a homophobic manner in the workplace, then I have to be ready to not act in a manner that provokes them into reacting.....

things like talking about gay / les affairs and issues in front of them is a direct provocation.....as I know it offends them.....but the law allows me to do that, but it doesn't allow them the right of reply........

thats where I draw the line....if I wanna get respect, I have to give respect....

but I notice that people regard that as being closeted or hiding my true self.... I actually see it as being honest and respectable.......
if there is no need to mention my sexuality or relationship status etc, at work, then why do it

in regards to taking your employer to court and winning....lol... thats a curse in itself...... it will not make your employer think about the way they treat their employees..... its gonna make them a damm sight more careful who they employ in the future......

its something I have seen a lot of now in nz with the anti discrimination laws in the workplace......
employers are now running checks against a potential employee to see if they have a history of crying discrimination.... for the simple reason that they do not want issues like that in their workplace

I know of a female friend that can not get a job now.....she is blacklisted by 3 companies.....and the employers network put the word out about her.....
her anti male stance is now well known....and she is known for announcing her sexuality to the world... then expecting the workplace to totally change to match her views.........
another lesbian friend of mine ( whom is openly lesbian and not anti male ) also struggles to find work..... and a employer told her outside of the workplace and in private.... that cos she was a lesbian....she was blacklisted as well.... cos of the actions of another

that is something I see as part of the danger of crying discrimination in the workplace..... it may be warranted and justified..... but the impact on others seeking work, can be pretty harsh indeed

[The Barefoot Contess]

Ok, so about heterosexual people who talk about their personal life in your face all the time? If they talk about their partners, experiences, why am I required not to do so if I want to? Because their sexuality is the norm and mine isn't? Hell, no. If sexuality is not a workplace discussion, then it isn't for anyone. Can't wait to see that they ban talking about your husband/wife.
By talking about my sexuality, I am not creating an uncomfortable environment, the bigotry of those who have a problem with it is.

[dafydd]

I do not lie about my sexuality, I just do not rub it in peoples faces, then tell them what they can and can not do or say

if a person around me is homophobic, I accept it......it simply means that they do not agree with gay / les behievour or people.......

but if I am gonna ask them not to act or talk in a homophobic manner in the workplace, then I have to be ready to not act in a manner that provokes them into reacting.....

things like talking about gay / les affairs and issues in front of them is a direct provocation.....as I know it offends them.....but the law allows me to do that, but it doesn't allow them the right of reply........

thats where I draw the line....if I wanna get respect, I have to give respect....

but I notice that people regard that as being closeted or hiding my true self.... I actually see it as being honest and respectable.......
if there is no need to mention my sexuality or relationship status etc, at work, then why do it

in regards to taking your employer to court and winning....lol... thats a curse in itself...... it will not make your employer think about the way they treat their employees..... its gonna make them a damm sight more careful who they employ in the future......


That's not true. Employers have to abide by their equal opportunity policies. If they don't hire someone because they are gay, that's another tribunal case and against the law. I think if you tolerate people being homophobic that's really a shame, but I can understand it if you're closeted.
'provocation' is a word used by the homophobic bigots who try to explain why they gay bash. "he sent me into a homophobic panic..!" etc.

[The Barefoot Contess]

'provocation' is a word used by the homophobic bigots who try to explain why they gay bash. "he sent me into a homophobic panic..!" etc.

Very well put.

[TaylorMade]

Ok, so about heterosexual people who talk about their personal life in your face all the time? If they talk about their partners, experiences, why am I required not to do so if I want to? Because their sexuality is the norm and mine isn't? Hell, no. If sexuality is not a workplace discussion, then it isn't for anyone. Can't wait to see that they ban talking about your husband/wife.
By talking about my sexuality, I am not creating an uncomfortable environment, the bigotry of those who have a problem with it is.

Why do you assume it's bigotry instead of a simple I don't want to hear it? I really didn't want to hear about my gay or straight co-workers personal lives, and I'll be damned if someone wants to accuse me of bigotry because of it.

Work is... work. I don't want to be that close to people at work. I don't want to know them as well as people at my church or the place where I get pizza or wherever else. And I know that my attitude isn't unique and crosses the entire sexual spectrum.

You don't know WHY some people don't want to hear about your sexuality, and to immediately assume "bigot" is a lazy act born of a prejudice all its own.

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

You don't know WHY some people don't want to hear about your sexuality, and to immediately assume "bigot" is a lazy act born of a prejudice all its own.

*Taylor*

You are right, I am very prejudiced.

[TaylorMade]

You are right, I am very prejudiced.

Then maybe you are not the best person to decide who is a bigot or not. People kinda like a semblance of impartiality when it comes to those things.:bigrin:


*Taylor*

[BiphobiaFighter]

A couple of people at uni know I'm bi simply because they were around when I used the word "we" (as in me and other bi people, not necessarily the people I was talking to) when the topic was bisexuality. I didn't censor myself but I didn't decide to come out to them. We were just talking comfortably. It was near the end of last semester and the semester after that begins in a week and I haven't seen them during the holidays but I don't exactly expect them to bring it up again.

They aren't friends or anything (but we are casual acquaintances).

Because a fellow male student (nothing to do with those other people and this was well before that) was relatively mildly sexually harassing me, I did lie a couple of times on different occasions to get him to stop, though, and some other people heard.


As far as work goes, I work alone so it isn't an issue. I have bosses that live a few hours away. The bosses are members of my extended family and my father works there too (at a different location from where I work alone) so they might find out that I'm bi but as family members and not as bosses. I plan to tell my father soon enough because he has suspicions and I think he wants to know and I'm comfortable with letting him know.

[MarieDelta]

Someone has said that the problem with straight folks interacting with gay(bisexual) folks who are out is that the keep imagining us In flagrante delicto, that is, in the act of sex. Whether that be a woman eating another or one man fucking another, that is the image that goes through their brains when they realize that we are gay/lez/bi.

That being said there really is only one way for folks to get used to a diverse population, and that is through contact. Without being out, how are the straight folks going to get used to us?


I understand that we have different cultures here, that some cultures have more accepting mores and some less. Still my point is the same, there is only one way that we will have progress, by coming out and being out.

Please, don't feel that this is in anyway pointing a finger at those who are not out. Its just a few points that I am considering, kind of rambling out loud.

Cheers

Marie

[DiamondDog]

Why do you assume it's bigotry instead of a simple I don't want to hear it? I really didn't want to hear about my gay or straight co-workers personal lives, and I'll be damned if someone wants to accuse me of bigotry because of it.

Work is... work. I don't want to be that close to people at work. I don't want to know them as well as people at my church or the place where I get pizza or wherever else. And I know that my attitude isn't unique and crosses the entire sexual spectrum.

You don't know WHY some people don't want to hear about your sexuality, and to immediately assume "bigot" is a lazy act born of a prejudice all its own.

*Taylor*

Taylor, You make a good point too.

I'm sort of like that with work too. I don't hang out with the people who I work with outside of work, and I would personally NEVER date/have sex with or get into a relationship with someone who I work with or apply for a job with someone who I date (even if we've never had sex at all) or have a relationship with, or a prospective person to date.

While I like talking about sex I don't go into the sordid details of it and I get bored very fast with one dimensional people who talk about nothing but sex or have to bring it up in EVERY conversation that they have with you, while they flirt with you even if you've already told them sorry I'm not interested.

I've been out at work mainly because I have understanding bosses and if someone does ask me if I'm gay/bi I'm not going to lie and I figure if they asked and want to know that badly I'm going to tell them the truth.

I just don't go into the details of my sex life mainly because not everyone wants to hear that and coming out as bi/gay or with other aspects of your sexuality isn't telling someone about your sex life/personal life. I will mention who I'm dating if someone asks me but I don't have any problem with that. :2cents:

[shameless agitator]

there really is only one way for folks to get used to a diverse population, and that is through contact. Without being out, how are the straight folks going to get used to us?

I understand that we have different cultures here, that some cultures have more accepting mores and some less. Still my point is the same, there is only one way that we will have progress, by coming out and being out.

Very well said.

[shameless agitator]

Why do you assume it's bigotry instead of a simple I don't want to hear it? I really didn't want to hear about my gay or straight co-workers personal lives, and I'll be damned if someone wants to accuse me of bigotry because of it.

Work is... work. I don't want to be that close to people at work. I don't want to know them as well as people at my church or the place where I get pizza or wherever else. And I know that my attitude isn't unique and crosses the entire sexual spectrum.

You don't know WHY some people don't want to hear about your sexuality, and to immediately assume "bigot" is a lazy act born of a prejudice all its own.

*Taylor*Okay we're not talking about going into the gory details of your sex life here. That would be inappropriate for anybody in the work place. A straight person can talk about going out to dinner (or the movies, symphony, etc) with their partner and nobody thinks anything of it. If one of us was to mention an evening out with our same sex partner though, that's something else altogether. And yes, if somebody has a problem with me mentioning a boyfriend who wouldn't object to my talking about a girlfriend is a fucking bigot. Our mere existence becomes a controversial political statement. It opens us up to all kinds of repercussions & in most states, it's perfectly legal to discriminate against people because of their sexuality.

[TaylorMade]

Okay we're not talking about going into the gory details of your sex life here. That would be inappropriate for anybody in the work place. A straight person can talk about going out to dinner (or the movies, symphony, etc) with their partner and nobody thinks anything of it. If one of us was to mention an evening out with our same sex partner though, that's something else altogether. And yes, if somebody has a problem with me mentioning a boyfriend who wouldn't object to my talking about a girlfriend is a fucking bigot. Our mere existence becomes a controversial political statement. It opens us up to all kinds of repercussions & in most states, it's perfectly legal to discriminate against people because of their sexuality.

Who said I was talking about the gory details?

I do not believe in the personal being political. I am not going to make my personal life into a political cause.

Ever.

*Taylor*

[shameless agitator]

It already is, or have you not noticed the huge crusade by the "religious right" to make sure you have no civil rights?

[The Barefoot Contess]

Okay we're not talking about going into the gory details of your sex life here. That would be inappropriate for anybody in the work place. A straight person can talk about going out to dinner (or the movies, symphony, etc) with their partner and nobody thinks anything of it. If one of us was to mention an evening out with our same sex partner though, that's something else altogether. And yes, if somebody has a problem with me mentioning a boyfriend who wouldn't object to my talking about a girlfriend is a fucking bigot. Our mere existence becomes a controversial political statement. It opens us up to all kinds of repercussions & in most states, it's perfectly legal to discriminate against people because of their sexuality.

I could not have said any better. Thank you.

[TaylorMade]

It already is, or have you not noticed the huge crusade by the "religious right" to make sure you have no civil rights?

S_A. I respect you. . . When they make strange fruit of me on the huge ficus tree in the local park and no one gets prosecuted, I'll worry about "no civil rights".

Till then, I'll give people at my job room. I have alot of flaws, but I'm not gonna add obnoxious to it. Like I said, I don't want people at work to know much else about me beyond my name and cell number.

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

(Martin Niemöller)


But of course, this has nothing to do with politics.

[TaylorMade]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

(Martin Niemöller)


But of course, this has nothing to do with politics.

No. It doesn't.

This has to do with the issue of disclosing your sexuality at work. Some deem it as necessary as breathing. I (and many others) don't. My sexuality is not a focal part of who I am as a person . . . and when coupled with LDD's question...


should we have the right to express ourselves and act in a manner that can be offensive to others, and demand that they may not react / act in a manner that we find offensive and discriminative


I say no, we don't have the right. If I don't want my religious co workers to witness to me, then I should stay out of their way and not discuss my sexuality. If they cross the line, you report them. If I cross the line, they will NEVER hesitate to report me.Give and take with as much fairness as possible, that's all it is.

And being that you admitted to being less than fair...

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

No. It doesn't.

This has to do with the issue of disclosing your sexuality at work. Some deem it as necessary as breathing. I (and many others) don't. My sexuality is not a focal part of who I am as a person . . . and when coupled with LDD's question...


*Taylor*

I was not referring to that, Taylor, I meant to point (but forgot to quote) to your comment about how you will not make a fuss about the situation until it hits you: "when they make strange fruit of me on the huge ficus tree in the local park and no one gets prosecuted, I'll worry about "no civil rights".

And yes, I am very impartial, extremely so. I am sick of people thinking that objectivity is the same as neutrality. No. Objectivity focuses on the object of your discussion, neutrality means not taking a stance. When I say that G.W. Bush is a bad president, I am being objective; when I say that both democrats and republicans are equally corrupt I am being neutral, but neither objective, nor, by the way, truthful.

[shameless agitator]

And being that you admitted to being less than fair...

*Taylor*I'm assuming you were referring to this...


You are right, I am very prejudiced.
Taylor, I'm pretty sure this was said sarcastically. Without inflection and voice modulation I've noticed sarcasm frequently goes over people's heads on forums.

[Gruffy In KC]

Honestly, it shouldn't matter one way or another - but it does. One of the problems I have is that I am in a rather "homophobic" filled field. That is not to say that those I work with are, but, it is a fairly common attitude.

I work with many people (not in my field) who are openly gay and I openly support them. However, I have actually heard some of them discussing bisexuals in a negative light "pick one or the other dammit...you are gay or straight....etc." So, there is some reverse negativity as well.

This is unfortunately the way it is at times. I am one of the "lucky ones" who can remain closeted and have some secrecy. Not everyone is afforded that luxury - and I admire their strength in coming out and sharing.

Then again, I don't really need to know, nor do I care to know about everyones sexuality. What they do behind doors (or in fields or in cars or wherever) doesn't involve me, so I don't care. I just want them to be happy. As we all should be.

Wow...that is one heck of a pointless ramble. Perhaps you can string one coherent thought out of it. If not...sorry!

[Long Duck Dong]

lol taylor, thats about where I stand too

to me, my private life is my private life, and i am in a employment situation to work, not to discuss my sexuality

I live in a country where equal rights and anti discrimination is a big thing in every day life..and the workplace......and I support that

but I see the same thing in life, that I am seeing in the thread......

I am bisexual, but I do not feel or see the need to tell everybody....so I am regarded as being * closeted *.... which is actually wrong....... I do not see the need to mention my sexuality in a situation where it has no bearing......

in the workplace, I never assume that people are heterosexual until they say so or otherwise....... cos they may well be pansexual, cd/tv, gay, lesbian, trans, intersex etc.....

but I have noticed the quickness of people to accuse others of bigotry...... thats interesting..... we are asking for respect, and we are quick to condemn others for having a opinion that we do not share.....

as for the need to be out, to create a diverse environment..... again I ask.... is that the best way of doing things......

its a bit like having the gay and lesbian mardi gras....we know that there is gonna be opposition......yet we have it anyway.........then we *attack * those who disagree with our lifestyle, and call them bigots, narrow minded, hypocritical, biased, homophobic...etc.......

we are the ones not being respectful of their opinions, yet asking them to be respectful of us and our opinions

we live in a world where not everybody agrees or sees eye to eye on things......and the best that we can hope for is a compromise and common ground.........

hence I will continue to smile and walk away when another person speaks in a homophobic / bi phobic manner......cos I know what its like, not to have the right to express my my opinion.....and as long as that person is not attacking me..... then they have the right to their opinion

[TaylorMade]

I'm assuming you were referring to this...


Taylor, I'm pretty sure this was said sarcastically. Without inflection and voice modulation I've noticed sarcasm frequently goes over people's heads on forums.

Still... you've heard what they say about sarcasm. It's hurtful truth poorly camouflaged as humor.


I was not referring to that, Taylor, I meant to point (but forgot to quote) to your comment about how you will not make a fuss about the situation until it hits you: "when they make strange fruit of me on the huge ficus tree in the local park and no one gets prosecuted, I'll worry about "no civil rights".


like SA said... it's one of those things you'd have to hear me say in person. I was ratcheting back to SA's claim of "no civil rights". . . that's a touchy statement for obvious reasons,that to me does not take into account the perilous and often deadly struggles for rights that other groups have gone through.

So.. .back to LDD's question:


should we have the right to express ourselves and act in a manner that can be offensive to others, and demand that they may not react / act in a manner that we find offensive and discriminative

Do you think we should have the right to express ourselves to the exclusion of others boundaries?

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

Taylor, I'm pretty sure this was said sarcastically. Without inflection and voice modulation I've noticed sarcasm frequently goes over people's heads on forums.

:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

Taylor, I'm pretty sure this was said sarcastically. Without inflection and voice modulation I've noticed sarcasm frequently goes over people's heads on forums.It dus?? No arguments from me bout that... in lotsa quarters so dus gud sense!!!:bigrin:

[shameless agitator]

I probably shouldn't ask which quarters you're talking about lol

[The Barefoot Contess]

LDD,

No one is talking about rubbing anyone's sexuality in anyone's faces. I, and others, are talking about being able to mention that we went to the movies with our same-sex partner. That is a pertinent comment.



its a bit like having the gay and lesbian mardi gras....we know that there is gonna be opposition......yet we have it anyway.........

we are the ones not being respectful of their opinions, yet asking them to be respectful of us and our opinions

No, no, no. Africans Americans knew there would be opposition when they asked for the right to vote; women knew there would be opposition when they wanted divorce rights; did they look the other way because they would offend a bigot majority? NO, they did not, and they made all the difference.


we live in a world where not everybody agrees or sees eye to eye on things......and the best that we can hope for is a compromise and common ground.........

How come the white, heterosexual upper class NEVER compromises? How come they are always the offended ones?


hence I will continue to smile and walk away when another person speaks in a homophobic / bi phobic manner......cos I know what its like, not to have the right to express my my opinion.....and as long as that person is not attacking me..... then they have the right to their opinion

How is that person who makes homophobic/biphobic commentaries in your presence not attacking you? When I hear racist comments, that is an attack against me; when I hear homophobic comments, that is an attack against me; when I hear antisemitic comments, that is an attack against me. Not because I am black, homosexual or Jew, but because rejecting those statements is the first step towards changing the attitudes behind them. And that is my problem.

[TaylorMade]

LDD,

No one is talking about rubbing anyone's sexuality in anyone's faces. I, and others, are talking about being able to mention that we went to the movies with our same-sex partner. That is a pertinent comment.



No, no, no. Africans Americans knew there would be opposition when they asked for the right to vote; women knew there would be opposition when they wanted divorce rights; did they look the other way because they would offend a bigot majority? NO, they did not, and they made all the difference.



How come the white, heterosexual upper class NEVER compromises? How come they are always the offended ones?



How is that person who makes homophobic/biphobic commentaries in your presence not attacking you? When I hear racist comments, that is an attack against me; when I hear homophobic comments, that is an attack against me; when I hear antisemitic comments, that is an attack against me. Not because I am black, homosexual or Jew, but because rejecting those statements is the first step towards changing the attitudes behind them. And that is my problem.

You just equated a fucking parade to the right to vote... SERIOUSLY... that is some of the dumbest shit I have ever read on a message board.

UH, it's not just white heterosexual upper-class people that may have objections- - some of these feelings cut across race and class... your bias is showing.

Sometimes, it is NOT YOUR JOB to tell people how they should think. Changes in mind do not come from imposition. Sometimes life puts people in a position where they learn how to deal... those that learn survive, those that do not get left behind.

I'd rather get sincere tolerance than imposed fakery.

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

You just equated a fucking parade to the right to vote... SERIOUSLY... that is some of the dumbest shit I have ever read on a message board.

UH, it's not just white heterosexual upper-class people that may have objections- - some of these feelings cut across race and class... your bias is showing.

Sometimes, it is NOT YOUR JOB to tell people how they should think. Changes in mind do not come from imposition. Sometimes life puts people in a position where they learn how to deal... those that learn survive, those that do not get left behind.

I'd rather get sincere tolerance than imposed fakery.

*Taylor*

Yes, LGBT rights are a fucking parade, no question about that. WTF.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD,

No one is talking about rubbing anyone's sexuality in anyone's faces. I, and others, are talking about being able to mention that we went to the movies with our same-sex partner. That is a pertinent comment.



No, no, no. Africans Americans knew there would be opposition when they asked for the right to vote; women knew there would be opposition when they wanted divorce rights; did they look the other way because they would offend a bigot majority? NO, they did not, and they made all the difference.



How is that person who makes homophobic/biphobic commentaries in your presence not attacking you? When I hear racist comments, that is an attack against me; when I hear homophobic comments, that is an attack against me; when I hear antisemitic comments, that is an attack against me. Not because I am black, homosexual or Jew, but because rejecting those statements is the first step towards changing the attitudes behind them. And that is my problem.


one I agree, there is a difference between casual conversation and rubbing sexuality in others faces

hence I would not hide my sexuality but nor would I do open displays of affection with same or opposite sex partners in a work place.... for me its a simple respect of others, thing


two... sorry I am confused here..... there is a clear difference between a choice to publically parade under the banner of sexuality and gender..... knowing that it will provoke opposition..... and fighting for the right to be treated as a human being and has the same rights afforded to every person
people of color fought hard for the right to be human.... and won......women fought for the right to divorce and won.........a gay lesbian mardi gras is about having a public party / parade cos they can

three... sorry I fully disagree... its not my fight, why make it my fight......

crusaders and pro activists can fight that type of fight..... and reap what they sow, when they get labeled as disruptive and troublemakers in the work place

but as for me..... if a person of color attacks the european race..... thats not attacking me, thats them informing others of their issues with a race of people.... its not a attack on me......

if a european person attacks a person of color..... thats not me attacking the person of colour.... thats somebody else expressing a opinion I do not share

if I stand up and start berating the person expressing a opinion I do not share..... thats me attacking others and claiming its my right to speak about how they do not have the right to have a opinion... but I have the right to express my opinion

if somebody around me attacks the LGBT community.... thats not attacking me.......thats them expressing their opinion about the lgbt community

when somebody stands up and calling me a butt munching, cock sucking confused, twisted pervert..... thats attacking me.......then I will react.......against them, but not with the intention of making them change their opinion about bisexuals, or the lgbt community, or how they feel about me......but to simply get them to realise that its like water off a ducks back.....what i do not take on board, can not hurt me

[TaylorMade]

Yes, LGBT rights are a fucking parade, no question about that. WTF.

WTF indeed, my lady.

What the fuck, indeed.

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

SERIOUSLY... that is some of the dumbest shit I have ever read on a message board.

*Taylor*

SERIOUSLY... that is one of the most disrespectful comments I have ever read on a message board.

You will probably think I take everything as an attack and that I am overly sensitive, but when you call my comments "dumb" in public, guess what, I feel attacked. Do you think I have the right to call you on that, or should I remain silent and let it go? Just wondering.

[TaylorMade]

SERIOUSLY... that is one of the most disrespectful comments I have ever read on a message board.

You will probably think I take everything as an attack and that I am overly sensitive, but when you call my comments "dumb" in public, guess what, I feel attacked. Do you think I have the right to call you on that, or should I remain silent and let it go? Just wondering.

I'm not insulting you personally... but I do think what you said was dumb. I'm not gonna be silent and let it go.
I'm grown up enough to know the difference between a personal attack and an attack on the thought process of a person, so no, you've never attacked me.
Once again. . .if you're feeling attacked based on your comments, here's how you prevent that: think about what you say before you post. . .or log off.

*Taylor*

[The Barefoot Contess]

Once again. . .if you're feeling attacked based on your comments, here's how you prevent that: think about what you say before you post. . .or log off.

*Taylor*

I am not feeling attacked based on my comments.

Please, allow me to remain here, it would be a pity to deprive myself of the many gratifying conversations you and I always have, wouldn't it? ;)

[TaylorMade]

I am not feeling attacked based on my comments.

Please, allow me to remain here, it would be a pity to deprive myself of the many gratifying conversations you and I always have, wouldn't it? ;)

Up to you.

*Taylor*

[shameless agitator]

three... sorry I fully disagree... its not my fight, why make it my fight......



but as for me..... if a person of color attacks the european race..... thats not attacking me, thats them informing others of their issues with a race of people.... its not a attack on me......

if a european person attacks a person of color..... thats not me attacking the person of colour.... thats somebody else expressing a opinion I do not share

if I stand up and start berating the person expressing a opinion I do not share..... thats me attacking others and claiming its my right to speak about how they do not have the right to have a opinion... but I have the right to express my opinion

if somebody around me attacks the LGBT community.... thats not attacking me.......thats them expressing their opinion about the lgbt community

when somebody stands up and calling me a butt munching, cock sucking confused, twisted pervert..... thats attacking me.......then I will react.......against them, but not with the intention of making them change their opinion about bisexuals, or the lgbt community, or how they feel about me......but to simply get them to realise that its like water off a ducks back.....what i do not take on board, can not hurt me"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing"~Edmund Burke.

[shameless agitator]

Yes, LGBT rights are a fucking parade, no question about that. WTF.
WTF indeed, my lady.

What the fuck, indeed.

*Taylor*More sarcasm going over your head Taylor. Perhaps we should talk to the FAA about getting some air traffic controllers?

[TaylorMade]

More sarcasm going over your head Taylor. Perhaps we should talk to the FAA about getting some air traffic controllers?

You already read what I said about sarcasm (At least I hope you did)... and based on Contess' pique over my reaction, I caught quite well what she said.

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

This is why its important to be out.

http://www.rememberinglawrence.org/

And this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

There was a time in this land when gay men and women and transgenders were prosecuted , beaten , raped (sometimes) and nothing was said about it.

It was just what "those queers" deserved.

No, I ma not talking about hanging up your pride flag behind your desk, I am not talking about hanging up the same sex nudie calendar at work. I am saying that if you have a date with a same sex partner or someone says "hey are you bi?" that you say "yes, I am" and it need go no further than that.

You don't need to walk down to you local protest carrying a sign either. Just don't letyour fears rule your day .

Its hard , I know, I am still working on coming out at work as trans. and to be frank , it scares me witless to think about , because of the issues that folks will raise.

But I know that its inevitable, one day i will have to face it.

I dunno, guess thats why this topic is so near and dear to my heart. it plays on both my fears and my dreams.

[TaylorMade]

This is why its important to be out.

http://www.rememberinglawrence.org/

And this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

There was a time in this land when gay men and women and transgenders were prosecuted , beaten , raped (sometimes) and nothing was said about it.

It was just what "those queers" deserved.

No, I ma not talking about hanging up your pride flag behind your desk, I am not talking about hanging up the same sex nudie calendar at work. I am saying that if you have a date with a same sex partner or someone says "hey are you bi?" that you say "yes, I am" and it need go no further than that.

You don't need to walk down to you local protest carrying a sign either. Just don't letyour fears rule your day .

Its hard , I know, I am still working on coming out at work as trans. and to be frank , it scares me witless to think about , because of the issues that folks will raise.

But I know that its inevitable, one day i will have to face it.

I dunno, guess thats why this topic is so near and dear to my heart. it plays on both my fears and my dreams.

Why? Some forms of personal information is a double edged sword, you can use it to get ahead, and it can be used as a sword to be plunged into your back. If someone at work pointedly asked me if I was bi. . .I would want to know... why do you want to know?

To me, the answer would be... "If I was, would it change anything?"

I know with you. . .the situation is different - -eventually you DO have to come out and be counted.

*Taylor*

[qchamp]

I can understand alot of this.

My sexuality has come into question two times at my job. It was the same person that has questioned it both times. Well this woman cannot see past her own......i dont know what to call it.

I do my job better than anyone that has ever worked here. That is all that should count, but its not. This woman keeps bringing it up to our boss. The boss is a very open minded young woman, she says she doesnt want to hear it. So long as it doesnt conflict with the job performance, what does it matter. Im lucky too, as there is one person here that we didnt know each other was bisexual, but she stands up for me about my work.

As for does the world have to know? No they dont, it really isnt any ones business but your own. It is a personal matter and should stay as such.


Tim

[shameless agitator]

two... sorry I am confused here..... there is a clear difference between a choice to publically parade under the banner of sexuality and gender..... knowing that it will provoke opposition..... and fighting for the right to be treated as a human being and has the same rights afforded to every person
people of color fought hard for the right to be human.... and won......women fought for the right to divorce and won.........a gay lesbian mardi gras is about having a public party / parade cos they can

Forgot to address this part earlier. The point of Pride Parades, or as you would have it "a gay lesbian mardi gras" is about visibility & keeping our issues in people's minds. When it was about civil rights for women or black people, visibility wasn't such a concern because it's pretty obvious. At the same time though, we still had the million man march & the freedom riders. The suffragists paraded, held sit ins and picketed outside of polling places. People have only ever acheived rights in this country as the result of struggle & the first step in the fight is simply to stand up and be counted.

[TaylorMade]

Forgot to address this part earlier. The point of Pride Parades, or as you would have it "a gay lesbian mardi gras" is about visibility & keeping our issues in people's minds. When it was about civil rights for women or black people, visibility wasn't such a concern because it's pretty obvious. At the same time though, we still had the million man march & the freedom riders. The suffragists paraded, held sit ins and picketed outside of polling places. People have only ever acheived rights in this country as the result of struggle & the first step in the fight is simply to stand up and be counted.

Ralpie May Beat me to it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Hlsl7bPQg)

*Taylor*

[Long Duck Dong]

Forgot to address this part earlier. The point of Pride Parades, or as you would have it "a gay lesbian mardi gras" is about visibility & keeping our issues in people's minds. When it was about civil rights for women or black people, visibility wasn't such a concern because it's pretty obvious. At the same time though, we still had the million man march & the freedom riders. The suffragists paraded, held sit ins and picketed outside of polling places. People have only ever acheived rights in this country as the result of struggle & the first step in the fight is simply to stand up and be counted.

I apologize.... a gay / les mardi gras is a LGBT pride thing.....its about being out, proud and visible, in nz.... its not about LGBT rights....we already have the right to marry in nz, the anti discrimination laws in the workplace

so in nz a LGBT mardi gras parade is about being out, proud and visible

the trouble with that.... is you can quarantee that there will be viable complaints about it... and by viable, I mean lewd behievour, offensive behievour, exposing the genitals, used condoms left laying around, obscene behievour etc etc

each time the auckland city council deny the LGBT the right to have the parade, the council are called homophobic, bi phobic, accused of discrimination etc etc

and thats the way I see the workplace.......

my conduct needs to be of a high standard as a employee......above all else......and if I choose to reveal my sexuality.... then I need to do it during a time where it doesn't create any issues or problems......bear in mind that not everybody will accept me or be comfortable with me or my sexuality.... but if they take up a issue with it and raise a hell storm..... that I keep my ass clean, my mouth shut and I do not become a bigger part of the issue

[DiamondDog]

Forgot to address this part earlier. The point of Pride Parades, or as you would have it "a gay lesbian mardi gras" is about visibility & keeping our issues in people's minds. When it was about civil rights for women or black people, visibility wasn't such a concern because it's pretty obvious. At the same time though, we still had the million man march & the freedom riders. The suffragists paraded, held sit ins and picketed outside of polling places. People have only ever acheived rights in this country as the result of struggle & the first step in the fight is simply to stand up and be counted.

GLBT pride parades haven't actually accomplished anything in years as far as politics/actual changes/progress goes.

Nowadays they're just seen as a spectacle, something fun, a way to get laid/hook up, tourism/a way to make money, an annoyance, a big party, a fun time getting drunk, and just lots of pointless shock value that doesn't really solve/change anything, prove anything, or do anything.

I personally don't find them shocking at all but some people even GLBT people do, and see them as harmful tools of visibility or that it is a way that makes the majority of heterosexuals see GLBT people not as normal everyday people but as a laughingstock or a spectacle.

Also many GLBT people realize this and just see pride parades as not a big deal at all and pointless now like they have been since the early 90s. The huge ones they had in DC in the early 90s didn't accomplish anything.

Pride parades aren’t like the suffragists, sit ins, marches for women's rights, or other types of visibility that actually changed things.

Let's not forget about how corporate pride parades are now.

I think one of the biggest problems with the so called fake consumerist/media created gay/GLBT "community" is the way people segregate themselves. This prevents a lot of straight people from seeing GLBT people as part of the everyday life, thus making it easier for them to overlook these types of anti-GLBT laws even if they have nothing against GLBT people.

As far as visibility goes, GLBT people are everywhere and it's all so mainstream now and you can hardly pick up a magazine/newspaper, watch a movie, go on the internet, or turn on the TV without the mention of GLBT characters/people, and if you feel the need to segregate yourself or what you watch or watch the gay ghetto of TV channels there's the LOGO channel.

There's not even a reason for gay neighborhoods anymore and they're just seen as expensive gay ghettos for rich/middle class white urban gay men.

All of this isn't a bad thing at all and I'm supportive of it (well minus the idea that gay is such a political label based on consumerism and is associated with rich/middle class white urban gay men when not all homosexual men are this way), and it's more powerful and gives GLBT people more visibility and more positive visibility than pride parades do IMO.

[The Barefoot Contess]

There's not even a reason for gay neighborhoods anymore and they're just seen as expensive gay ghettos for rich/middle class white urban gay men.



When every single LGBT person in the world can walk home safely without fear of being beaten up or harassed, then maybe we can consider what you say. Although perhaps some people would suggest that you should just move to a different neighborhood, because you are obviously provoking.

On the other hand, think of what you are saying. We seem to strive for "normality" so much that sometimes we don't realize we are falling into a trap: we managed to create some "safe areas" for our community, which, yes, might be seen as ghettos, and as soon as we see a glimpse of acceptance, we rush to blend with our new benefactors so as to erase all differences between us and pretend that nothing happened. Remember, that acceptance, to this day, comes mainly from heterosexuals: oh, ok, let's not discriminate then, and now let's require that they get rid of that which granted them safety so that we can feel great making them a part of "us".

I am not saying that the entire LGBT community needs to be the same, or that everyone must be out, or display the same "pride" images. Nothing like that. What I am saying is that if people want to feel different, if people want to be a "freak show" (which is only such in the eyes of the beholder), if they do not want to be like the majority, it is their right, and they should not be discriminated against because of it.

[MarieDelta]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-flbteenmurder0223sbfeb23,0,2931895.story

Another reason to be out, at least politically

[shameless agitator]

GLBT pride parades haven't actually accomplished anything in years as far as politics/actual changes/progress goes.


Also many GLBT people realize this and just see pride parades as not a big deal at all and pointless now like they have been since the early 90s. The huge ones they had in DC in the early 90s didn't accomplish anything.

Pride parades aren’t like the suffragists, sit ins, marches for women's rights, or other types of visibility that actually changed things.

I'll agree up to a point. It's true that not much changes directly as a result of Pride parades. I've never heard a politician say "holy shit 15,000 people showed up to Pride? We better give 'em what they want". Parades are, however, where a lot of people get plugged into resources to help make a change. PFLAG does a lot of recruiting at these events, as do local GLBT community centers. People are able to circulate petitions & initiatives. It's also, for a lot of people the only chance they get to be out in public and feel accepted without worrying about being beaten and/or killed for being seen holding hands with or (dog forbid) kissing their partner.

[Ninnian]

... it' snot that I don't think that one thing is tied (sometimes however losely) to another ,but I thought we were talking about Work??

If I owned a buisness, I own teh jobs that I provide. Should I wish to not hire smokers becuase studies show they add a serious amount of $$ to my insurance claims, I should be allowed to Not hire one. Should I not wish to allow teh woman in my office to "express themsleves" by wearing socially acceptable high heels (becuase it ruins my hardwood floors and I *Like* teh flooring I chose for my biz or whatever) I should be allowed to tell them I don't wish to hire them, unless they can comply with my requirements. You could go on and on ,really... But if a boss/CEO whatever wishes to NOT hear(or have to deal with anyone else hearing and bieng *gasp* offended*) a danged thing about a sexual OR social life of its employees, far be it for teh Employee to make demands.... you get the picture.
If I wish to have a job run liek a JOB and not like a social circle, I should be able to.- I don't understand why this is a problem. Im Bi- I dont talk about it as a way to desensitize others to those who also have my sexual orientation. It's not my purpose in a job to have those at work understand and accept me. Its to do teh work,to teh best of my ability. If I were het., I wouldnt make any difference.
Some employers (liek Google and facebook.. etc) liek to encorporate the Entire Life Experiences of thier employees at their workplace. If you want to make more workplaces that will allow such things, find them and help make them *Rich and Profitable*! so that others will want to follow thier footsteps.


:2cents: Nin

[shameless agitator]

The point is though, Hets are allowed to talk about their personal lives. In a lot of states (yours included) If you're GLBT and let others know (could be something as innocent as "You should try this restaurant I went to with my boyfriend last night"), you can be fired. Not for talking about your social life, but simply for not being het.

[TaylorMade]

The point is though, Hets are allowed to talk about their personal lives. In a lot of states (yours included) If you're GLBT and let others know (could be something as innocent as "You should try this restaurant I went to with my boyfriend last night"), you can be fired. Not for talking about your social life, but simply for not being het.

If you don't talk about your social life, how will they know you're not hetrosexual?

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

Remember Peter Oiler? (http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=565)


Oiler had worked 23 years for Winn-Dixie. While attempting to resolve workplace rumors that he was gay, he told his supervisor that he sometimes wore women's clothing away from the job. This information was passed on to Michael Istre, president of Louisiana Winn-Dixie, who decided that Peter Oiler should resign. Oiler, who had been regularly promoted and who had excellent performance evaluations, repeatedly refused and was subsequently fired

There have been a number of cases where the employer 'found out' through a third party that the person was GLBT and they have been let go.

Being out means that at least you have some modicum of protection (although not much really)

[TaylorMade]

Remember Peter Oiler? (http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=565)



There have been a number of cases where the employer 'found out' through a third party that the person was GLBT and they have been let go.

Being out means that at least you have some modicum of protection (although not much really)

If he had not told his supervisor he wore womens clothing off the clock while under suspicion... chances are, he would have kept his position.

As you said yourself. . .being out should mean you have some protection. . .but in reality, it doesn't mean much, and in the case you pointed out, it could backfire.

*Taylor*

[shameless agitator]

I'll point out discrimination also takes place in housing, customer service & a host of other situations. If I wanted to rent a one bedroom with a woman, there'd be no problem. If I wanted to rent that same one bedroom with a man, it would be perfectly legal for the landlord to refuse to rent to us.

[Long Duck Dong]

I'll point out discrimination also takes place in housing, customer service & a host of other situations. If I wanted to rent a one bedroom with a woman, there'd be no problem. If I wanted to rent that same one bedroom with a man, it would be perfectly legal for the landlord to refuse to rent to us.

and thats where people cry *discrimination *.......

but is it discrimination or personal choice........the landlord has the right to decide who he has in his property.... if he/she does not wish to have a gay / les couple in their property, its *discrimination *... but if the same landlord says no to a hetero couple, its not discrimination, its personal choice over tenants ????

the same applies to the work place.... it appears that if the person is * LGBT* the discrimination rule is applied, if they do not get the job....... but if a hetero person doesn't get the job, its just part of the vetting process to find the best person for the job

this is why I avoid the LGBT and discrimination issue........ its like saying that I am LGBT so the world is against me automatically, cos of what I do in my personal life.... but for the most part..... if they were not told about my private life, they wouldn't know......

[shameless agitator]

The critical issue is whether your sexuality is the reason for being denied. If a het got the promotion I wanted & ws better qualified, then I wasn't discriminated against, same with housing, lending etc. If however The standards are applied unequally depending on the sexuality of the people in question, then calling discrimination is perfectly legitimate.

[MarieDelta]

The critical issue is whether your sexuality is the reason for being denied. If a het got the promotion I wanted & ws better qualified, then I wasn't discriminated against, same with housing, lending etc. If however The standards are applied unequally depending on the sexuality of the people in question, then calling discrimination is perfectly legitimate.


And usually the burden of proof (IIRC)is on the one who was discriminated against to prove that was indeed the case.

[bediddle]

There was a time in this land when gay men and women and transgenders were prosecuted , beaten , raped (sometimes) and nothing was said about it.

It was just what "those queers" deserved.


Thanks for bringing this up!

I'm sort of getting the impression here that there are those who think that LGBT rights are simply the fight for the right to have a parade and wear funny clothes.

Sex between two people of the same gender is still illegal in many places and in some parts of the world the maximum penalty is death.

The main point here, however, has to do with people being treated equally in the workplace. I don't think that anyone is arguing that you should be allowed to hold a pride parade in your office. And no one is saying that people should hear every detail of your date last night. Just that at the staff Christmas party you should be able to introduce your partner (if they happen to be the same gender as you) without lying about the nature of the relationship.

Not everyone works in the type of environment where they can keep to themselves so much. Many people work very closely with others. While it's entirely possible to conduct that job only knowing your coworker's first name - most people don't want to work that way. They feel a need to get to know each other and that means a certain amount of self disclosure... not a whole lot... not like what you would tell your best friends but it might include who you've dated in the past or who you want to date.. or who you live with. Why should they worry about disclosing that sort of thing when their heterosexual coworkers have no issue with it?

[PolyLoveTriad]

I say that you should tell whoever you want to tell. No one has the right when you go to interview for a job, to ask you, "So Molly, when you have sex, do you use a missionary position or do you prefer something on the kinky side?" So I don't believe its anyones business to reveal their sexual preference either. Now if they want to go in, and say Hi my name is so and so and I'm a 25yr old gay man or I'm a 30 yr old bisexual woman, let them, its all up to your own judgment in how you live your life, who you tell or don't tell and whether or not you give a crap what people think about you.

I dont think even if I didn't care who thought what about me that I would personally bring the topic up in interview or anywhere in the workplace only because some people can accept you for the way you are and some people may make too much out of it. It may cause people of the same sex to never really open up to you as a fellow employee for whatever reason, homophobic, scared, possibly they feel the same way as you.

But then, thats me and what do I know? Im just along for the ride :)

[HighEnergy]

Yikes, the straight chick has something to say on the subject, so don't freak. But I think it's good for folks to be out. Having someone you know and respect and is gay makes it more human, and easier to care about the issues. If het folks only see the GLBT folks as the charactures on TV, or the flaming queen making a scene in the local Taco Bell, or such, they can't get all warm and fuzzy over issues like gay marriage, partner benefits at work, or being able to be the person the nurse talks to at the hospital when your partner is sick.

My friend has been out at work for a long time. Because he talks about his life with his partner, he's seen as more human. When he tells his coworkers that his partner has Parkinsons and needs health coverage he can't get because he can't work full time, they can see what an issue it would be if their spouse was in the same position and care about it and vote for partner benefits. When they see what a good "marriage" he has, they can care about GLBT folks having the same rights.

When I convinced my very biggoted old mother to hire a friend of mine who was transexual as a cleaning lady, my mother could see this person as more human and come to love her as she was.

Here's another thing, if you don't ever mention your personal life, folks are suspicious of you and it makes them more nervous. It's "normal" to talk about life outside of work at work. I used to work with a very handsome, intelligent, kind, witty physician. He wasn't married, and never talked about dating anyone, and rarely mentioned his "roommate". After working with him for many years, I asked him what he was doing for the holidays and he said he was going to see his family in another town. I asked him if he was taking his roommate. He wondered why I would think he was taking his roommate. I said because folks take their loved ones to their family homes, and I was sorry if I offended him, but I just thought everyone deserved to be love and be loved and I hoped that he had that in his life. After some hemhawing around, he asked me how long had I known he was gay and if anyone else did. I replied that the entire department respected him a great deal as a physician and a person, and that everyone thought he was gay. He was rather shocked about this because he thought he was well closeted. So I told him, "those closets are glass, dear. No drop dead gorgeous, intelligent, charming, witty, kind man with a damn good income wouldn't have a wife unless he was gay or bi, or something, and no one thinks negatively about it. The only "problem" is we feel you don't trust us enough to be open and that is hurtful in it's own right." From then on, the "roommate" came to the company Christmas party and when we all complained about whatever our "idiot" husbands did this week, he would chime in with his own stories of socks on the floor, etc.

I don't begrudge anyone who isn't out. I can see that there are still many dangers out there, from risking being fired, to risking being beaten up or killed by some homophobic asshole. It will take generations to reduce hatred, and it will never go away completely, just as it hasn't for black folks. But by being open around children, someday maybe there will be less self hatred if our children see good role models as they grow up. It was rather charming that it took my middle daughter until she was 7 to realize that her beloved Auntie was another race! Her "Uncles" are just another married couple. And her father finally accepted that it was ok that the Ken dolls were getting married one day. True social growth comes slowly and only by having exposure to folks close to you.

[Long Duck Dong]

at the end of the day, I can only see one thing happening...... and that is the LGBT community will reach a stalemate


it is a bit like the movement of the people of colour.....aspects of that community have developed their own identity ( rap artists / gangsters etc )....as a forum of indentity.....

* now I know just how dangerous that statement is, but I am merely using it as a example ...its not a attack or a way of trying to oppose anybody *

we talk about their anti social behievour, their illegal actions etc etc etc

but that group want to retain their identity and their individuality in society

it is the same as drag queen / female impersonators..... they dress and act flamboyantly cos it stands out from the main stream

the moment the LGBT comunity get full acceptance from the human race as a whole.... we cease to exist as a individual identity.....or as a community.....but we have become part of the world wide community......

the same thing is happening in nz.... the gay bars / cafes and saunas / cruise bars are disappearing....as acceptance has grown.....
now we are seeing complaints, cos those places are disappearing.....

but they are no longer needed or used by the majority of the LGBT community.....because they are free to mingle in the * mainstream *

so the LGBT community needs to decide what is gonna happen......and what they are fighting for.........

are they fighting for acceptance, for the rules to be changed, for society to become more open to us......or are they gonna continue to cry discrimination, while saying that we need to have the LGBT bars, health system, LGBT rights......and continue to keep us seperate from the same society we are trying to become a accepted part of

[MarieDelta]

We are all free to mingle "in the mainstream" as it were of heterosexual life.

I do not have a problem with that. Its good to mix it up a bit. I don't want to go from the closet to a slightly bigger closet.

I don't see the culture here in the US changing as rapidly as it may be elsewhere. Straight folks still don't want to see two guys(or girls) kissing on the side of the street. They still feel threatened by the whole LGBT comunity.
Like we are some alien culture? perhaps.

The culture here is intermingled and so varied that it would be impossible to say there is a culture of one type.

Plus there are two different cultures on the east and west coast.

It may change with acceptance, but I doubt it.

Some of these cultures are the result of poverty and discrimination to be sure. They are also a way for us to be unique and different.

Occasionally our culture bleeds into the straight world and vice versa.

Maybe all this is a result of LGBTQ youth running away from home(or getting kicked out of their homes). Or maybe it is a result of their being sufficient numbers of queers in the larger cities, that you can see the difference. I don't know. It doesn't seem to be disapearing however, at least not here.