Article re: circumcision

[coyotedude]

Yes, I know I'm stirring the waters.... (tee hee hee)

But I find this article interesting nonetheless, and thought some folks here might find it interesting as well.

Enjoy! (But not too much...)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/us/04immune.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

[DiamondDog]

Yeah it's pointless and outdated genital mutilation done under the ruse of "religion" and the idea that a mutilated penis is somehow "cleaner" when it's not, and circumcision of men and women should be outlawed and it doesn't prevent people from getting HIV or other STDs.

[buck-rogers]

Yeah it's pointless and outdated genital mutilation done under the ruse of "religion" and the idea that a mutilated penis is somehow "cleaner" when it's not, and circumcision of men and women should be outlawed and it doesn't prevent people from getting HIV or other STDs.

I'm circumcized (since I was a baby) and it isn't a big deal. My parents didn't have the doctor do it because we are religious but because "it's cleaner". While that probably isn't true I really don't care, everything works fine down there either way, right? I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it mutilation though:2cents:.

[Hephaestion]

Sometimes circumcision is required for medical reasons. It is sometimes the case that the foreskin atrophies (does not 'feed' from the blood supply) and begins to die off. This isknown as phimosis. In the cases that I am familiar with, the skin goes characteristically paper white and loses both its elasticity and size. The glans cannot be revealed and cleanliness is compromised at the very least. Tearing can result during penetration. It is quite possibe for the tissue to autotomise (be shed) naturally. It is unlikely to grow again without some extreme moves (there is a group that dedicates itself to re-establishing a foreskin through prolonged stretching - which must be uncomfortable). Rather than wait for the possibility of autotomy, medical intervention occurs with controlled circumcision.

Side effects - the glans eventually loses its previous sensitivity resulting initially in a 'long stayer' (not always welcomed by lovers) but can result in such insensitivity that loss of impetus results. I'd sooner have a foreskin than not but sometimes there is no choice.

That's the scientific bit out of the way. FLippant and completely unscientific if not bordering on the demented - try whipping the thing back to sensation or use chilli and scoprions - no don't!

[Flounder1967]

Lets get off this We've all beat this dead horse to a pulp. please let it die off. There are other threads dealing with this. Lets all stop.


Rodney Kiong said it best, "Can't we all just be friends".

[wanderingrichard]

< gggggggggrrrrrrrrr> .........sittin over here trying hard to not let that hot button get pushed... < fades away muttering to himself about barbaric treatment of infant males>

[Bluebiyou]

Absolutely!
...and female circumcision helps women be faithful, and abandon the Freudian immature clitoral orgasm to seek the mature woman's deep penetration orgasm!
Better living through mutilation!
:)
(sarcasm intended).
There is no excuse. None of the wives tales/pseudo science hold any water... in our culture that still embraces male mutilation... or far eastern that still embraces the virtues of female mutilation.

It took 3 generations of surgeons to wash their hands. It will take 5 generations of doctors before circumcision loses its pseudo science support.

Buck, sorry to reality blitz you, but you only have 1/2 the feeling you would otherwise have. It's simple mathematics.

Plus mutilation is the precise and exact term for destroying healthy tissue with absolutely no indication of disease.

Hephaestion may get athelete's foot... perhaps we should do him a favor and help him cut off his toes to prevent this terrible plague.

[BiphobiaFighter]

Hephaestion may get athelete's foot... perhaps we should do him a favor and help him cut off his toes to prevent this terrible plague.
I don't think that's fair. I don't think he was advocating pre-emptive circumcisions.

I like my foreskin and I am completely against frivolously circumcising infants.

[Flounder1967]

Please I really mean it let this god damn thread die.

We not just beat this horse to death, but the next 3 generations.

[DiamondDog]

It took 3 generations of surgeons to wash their hands. It will take 5 generations of doctors before circumcision loses its pseudo science support.

Buck, sorry to reality blitz you, but you only have 1/2 the feeling you would otherwise have. It's simple mathematics.

Plus mutilation is the precise and exact term for destroying healthy tissue with absolutely no indication of disease.

Hephaestion may get athelete's foot... perhaps we should do him a favor and help him cut off his toes to prevent this terrible plague.

Don't forget that the length and width of the penis are made smaller and decreased by circumcision too!

[12voltman59]

The thing with circumcision is that the decision is in most cases not made thanks to consideration of any health consequences---it is made based on interpretations based on things like religion or cultural norms.

Once again-- the decision to have a child undergo being cut is one of cases in which it's a matter of "don't confuse me with the facts---my mind is made up and that's that!!!"

Being Catholic--I had kind of thought that "the Church" had favored circumcision --the Catholic church does not currently have a specific policy either way---allowing indivduals to make such a decision based on their family or local custom.

According to a pamplet I found on the subject--the church considers the procedure to be a form of mutilation and therefore is not something the church supports--

I don't know if this was the stance of the church back when I was born---but if that is they way the church taught then--I wished my folks had followed those teachings then!!!

Here is the gist of what the Catholic Church now holds on this subject:

"The Catholic Church Catechism clearly teaches that amputations and mutilations performed on innocent persons withhout strictly therapeutic reasons are strictly against the moral law.

Infant Circumcision is

[12voltman59]

The thing with circumcision is that the decision is in most cases not made thanks to consideration of any health consequences---it is made based on interpretations based on things like religion, cultural or even family norms.

Once again-- the decision to have a child undergo being cut is one of cases in which it's a matter of "don't confuse me with the facts---my mind is made up and that's that!!!"

Being Catholic--I had kind of thought that "the Church" had favored circumcision --the Catholic church does not currently have a specific policy either way---allowing indivduals to make such a decision based on their family or local custom.

According to a pamplet I found on the subject--the church considers the procedure to be a form of mutilation and therefore is not something the church supports--

I don't know if this was the stance of the church back when I was born---but if that is they way the church taught then--I wished my folks had followed those teachings!!! LOL

Here is the gist of what the Catholic Church now holds on this subject:

"The Catholic Church Catechism clearly teaches that amputations and mutilations performed on innocent persons withhout strictly therapeutic reasons are strictly against the moral law.

Infant Circumcision is non-therapuetic amputation."

from the informational pamplet: "Catholic Teachings on Circumcision...Respecting the Bodily Integrity of All of God's Chidren"

But knowing that in many of the places the Catholic Church is big--there are very strong cultural and social arguments that support circumcision----they allow for wiggle room on this subject.

[BreeIsMe]

It is interesting to read all the thoughts on this repetitive topic but I was wondering if anyone really read the article.
There is actually scientific evidence that circumcision REDUCES the incidence of STDs. So those of you claiming there is no "cleanliness" issue are wrong--maybe not in you but in some areas of Africa, men may not clean themselves as well and disease may result. Female circumcision on the other hand has no such accompanying data. Therefore, certainly female circumcision should be banned but male circumcision for the right reasons may still be justified.


Now, Flounder, I will do my best to let this die...

Bree

[Ocasio otoko]

I was cut as a baby and I think I am horrible! This is a mutilation I had NO idea WHY my fucking father authorized this at the hospital as it was not a standard procedure.
It's horrible, is absurd, I do NOT see the logic of it at all. Is a practice that should forever be banned. :(

[Bluebiyou]

As long as there is a large Jewish influence in the World Health Organization, every effort to disguise and pseudo science justify it will continue.
If the world looks at circumcision as it truly is, the Jewish based custom will become illegal; orthodox leaning Jews see this result as bad.
The same would be true if the Koran had required the same of female circumcision and Arabs held the top tiers of world power. Female circumcision would (every 20 years something different) be proved to improve health and well being... by citing some statistic or study.
This traditional/cultural mutilation is nothing more.

Hands will be cleaner if we cut them off. Athlete's foot will virtually disappear if we cut off all of a baby's toes. Can you imagine the reduction of female mouth cancer if we circumcise women's mouths at birth? Can you imagine the reduction of feminine mental distess if we gave every female a lobotomy at birth? Any horrible mutilation could easily, quickly, and very mathematically/scientifically be rationalized/justified.
Hey, BreeIsMe... your face is dirty... here, use a razor to cut it off... no, wait! That's right, soap and water is the cure for dirty, not the razor... gosh, for a minute I was stupid.

"Only blind are those who will not see."

[Bluebiyou]

I'm truly sorry for being so vicious.
There is simply no justification for molesting an innocent human.
I will go toe to toe with anyone who supports molestation (this includes female circumcision as well as male).
If a male cannot urinate, or his health is in grave danger, then yes; cut off his leg if he has gangrene; circumcise him if he cannot urinate (actually a single small longitudinal incision would allow urination without having to remove prepuce).

Preventive mutilation is NOT medicine.

P.S. any such violence I propose to/about females is %100 sarcastic in nature and meant to illustrate some evil.

[intuit2]

The last comment by bluebiyou is not only bordering on anti-semitic...it is anti semitic! your claim that the medical establishment is performing circumcisions because of Jewish influence just shows how little you know. Jews don't give a rat's ass if people from other religions cut their kids or not! In fact, jews don't care much what other religions do, as long as they don't try persecuting us for our faith and our actions. If i weren't Jewish, i probably would not have circumcised my son. But i am, and have no shame, guilt or bad feeling about doing so. Do what you want to your kids!

For the rest of you who have called it mutilation, that have said it should be outlawed, and compared it to female circumcision where they cut off a woman's clitoris: I've bit my tongue thus far. As for the medical establishment, you have your right to be critical. But as far as the religious practice...think about what you say before you try stopping a tradition that is pretty harmless in and of itself...most of the time, the kid doesn't cry because of the cut...but because he is cold! For all the talk about mutilation...I think a circumcised prick is pretty beautiful..both flaccid and hard...and i'm sure many many many people would agree! As far as loss of sensitivity...who is to judge? I have been circumcised all my life and i still am overly sensitive and sometimes cum too easily. As far as being the equivalent of female circumcision...come on...the only thing they have in common is that they are both called circumcision. The equivalent would be cutting of the head of a cock, not the foreskin surrounding it.

Coyotedude..you should have left this one alone....it only brings out the subtle...and not so subtle forms of bigotry that still exists today.

[Bluebiyou]

Anti semitic? LOL Nice twist. Almost if I was arguing against child molestation as a means of being a bigot against Jews? That's a clever and original tactic.
Good lord, I don't even hate my enemies in life that much because it would take so much energy to hate.
I'll argue against any race, religion, nationality, gender, .. etc. that, as a group, endorse child molestation.
None of your other arguments hold any water as well; none. They're attempts at denying/rationalizing/minimizing the harming an innocent child.

It would be an impressive act of devotion and faith, if a man, as an adult with free will circumcised himself as a sacrifice to God.
To do this to an innocent and defensless child... I just can't see a 'sacrifice' or act of faith, or even morality.
At very best it is cultural conformity (whether that culture is religious, nationality, political, etc).
Naw, dude. I don't hate you... hell I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and half my friends were Jewish. I am just againt harming innocents. Please don't try to confuse this.

[VBScript]

Cut penises seriously are nasty!

All the nasty scars, dryness, removed parts, and fucked up penises and genitals.

I know one man who got his dick cut as a baby and the doctor fucked it up and his cock is all fucked up and bends weird and part of his cock head is missing!

Try having one of the most sensitive parts of your penis cut off without any anesthesia and tell me it DOES NOT hurt you at all. :rolleyes:

You should feel bad for how your outdated and pointless religion says that a man's penis has to be mutilated just like your penis and that you MUST pass this onto your son. You should also feel horrible at how you let this get done to your son in the name of an outdated religion. If you actually did care about your son you wouldn't have had his penis mutilated just to match yours or because it's part of your religion.

There are Jews who abhor male circumcision and see it as genital mutilation which it is and they refuse to have it done to their sons, and everyone is still part of that outdated religion even if they're not cut. It's not a requirement for being a male Jew.

Ritual male genital mutilation in Judaism and Islam is not harmless. It's a horrible practise that should never be done and should be outlawed. Also with some female circumcisions all they do is remove the hood of the clit and don't touch the clit at all, so you can compare male circumcision to female circumcision.

I don't care if someone gets cut as an adult since it is their own choice but I think it's a horrible thing if you do it to a helpless child or a baby who has NO CONSENT at all over what he does or does not want done to his body.

Don't accuse other people of being bigots since the finger you accuse with points directly back at you!

If you're Jewish, support Israel, and you don't support Palestinians or see how Israel is a bad thing and a failure, and how Israel is just being like Hitler's Germany was to the Jews in regards to Palestinians in/around Israel, you're being both a bigot and Anti Semetic since you don't like Palestinians who are also Semite people.

[VBScript]

http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/naturalresources

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6584757516627632617&q=circumcision&hl=en

http://geocities.com/painfulquestioning/unnatural#cutting

http://geocities.com/painfulquestioning/unnatural#cuttingbabies

[VBScript]

http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/zzch.gif

http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/zzzsmallcircpic.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/zerfs.gif

http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/12securing.jpg

Still think it's painless for the baby boy? :rolleyes:

[VBScript]

Here's what's lost forever if your cock is cut.

http://geocities.com/painfulquestioning/naturalresources#FF

[DiamondDog]

I'm glad that my cock isn't mutilated.

My friend is going to try to "restore" or stretch out the rest of his remaining foreskin to regain some sensitivity that was lost when he got cut.

It's not the same as having a fully intact penis with a foreskin but he will regain some sensitivity by stretching the remaining tissue of his foreskin, and hopefully get coverage over his bare dry glans.

Not to mention that we find foreskin to be HOT!

Plus there is no need for those icky desensitizing synthetic lubes when you jack off at all! ;)

[wutheringheights]

I'm circumcised and I often fantasize about cutting the rest off.
No doubt such a comment will meet with shock and derision from more than a few, but I'm illustrating the fact that not everyone is traumatized by circumcision. Others above have already discussed the circumstances under which it is worthwhile medically so there's probably no point reiterating. There may be many instances where by definition the practice is 'unnecessary'. But are the critics of circumcision always motivated by concern for the helpless youngsters? It seems to me that support/rejection of the practice go in waves and we happen to be in the midst of a disapproving era. Maybe we should leave it up to the infants to decide for themselves.... but that would involve social changes more radical than the mere banning of circumcision.

[Bluebiyou]

Interesting winding road to take to final conclusion.
I understand a little better where you are coming from after reading your profile: that you have "made serious inquiries regarding sexual reassignment" at different times in your life and thus your comment makes more sense...
At first I thought you might be into body modification like jack6two.

As a side point, (library research of medical studies performed), in countries with 'modern medical facilities' where circumcision was not culturally supported, circumcision rates for males were well below 1%. It's been a long time since I read it... it was either .2% or .02%. Clearly showing a complete absence of any pseudo-medical rationalizing for mutilating babies...

Regarding 'waves' of pro/con... I think that's just the randomness/fluctuation of human nature. I suppose the suffragette movement could have been viewed the same. And that change took a hundred years... women going from practically 'chattel' to pretty-close-to equal (yes, there are still prejudices, glass ceilings, etc). But we've come a long way baby. Women all through the work force, in management, doctors, lawyers, even heads of state. Perhaps we're not all the way there yet, but we're a lot, lot closer to the end than the beginning. Yet, I digress...

But I do like your final conclusion:
"Maybe we should leave it up to the infants to decide for themselves.... but that would involve social changes more radical than the mere banning of circumcision."

[RockGardener]

I'm going to add a female voice to this thread.

Most guys I know are circumcised. My ex-husband and my son are not. This was not a religious decision, just a personal one. We chose not to cut because it doesn't seem necessary. My ex was taught by his parents to "keep it clean or it will turn into a worm". He's never had any problem with cleanliness or disease. My bf is cut and he's never had a problem with cleanliness or disease. People talk about the sensitivity issue. I don't know if I agree. Cut guys can be just as sensitive as uncut guys. Without getting into TMI, I know one certain guy in my life that has no problems with lack of sensitivity. So, it really is personal preference. In the US, many babies are circumcised, in other places they are not. For very few people in the world, the practice has anything to do with religion. It has to do with peer pressure. People look at me in horror when I say my son is not circumcised. I always hear comments about how gross that is. I know my ex and I taught him to keep it clean. It all boils down to choice. I believe the practice will slowly fade away in the US, but it will be awhile.

Rock

[buck-rogers]

Buck, sorry to reality blitz you, but you only have 1/2 the feeling you would otherwise have. It's simple mathematics.

Damnit!!!... Excuse me, I have to go have a very awkward & unpleasant conversation with my parents....rabble...grumble...friggin...:mad:

[denvermarriedbi]

Cut penises seriously are nasty!
If you're Jewish, support Israel, and you don't support Palestinians or see how Israel is a bad thing and a failure, and how Israel is just being like Hitler's Germany was to the Jews in regards to Palestinians in/around Israel, you're being both a bigot and Anti Semetic since you don't like Palestinians who are also Semite people.

Ugh. I support Israel. I don't see it as a failure - that land was SWAMP when we took it back. Israelis don't go gassing Palestinians, but they don't see any problem with sending missles at Israelis (not something Jews in Nazi Germany could do to the Nazis, and this is really a big thing in the Israeli-Palestinian relationship right now). And the Palestinians have access to Jordan, Syria and Egypt - oh, wait, those MUSLIM countries don't seem to care much about their brethren...

That said, I also think the Palestinians should have their land - the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as two separate counties and governments (Fatah and Hamas). The rest should be Israel. And the UN should heavily police the entire f*cking thing. Any missle shot should be publicized and the UN should go into that area and bomb the shit out of where the missile came from. Massive public education, secular, should be required, and large amounts of money should be poured in to bring up the living standard - most first world countries don't have terrorism anywhere near on the scale as the Middle East. Any terrorist group, Jewish or Muslim or other should be outlawed, banned, and if found to be congregating the members should be exiled from both countries. I'm sick and tired of the fighting, and I don't even live there! Note: it's a red-button issue for me, and thankfully I don't set anyone foreign policy!

Not that I'm digressing or anything..

[BiphobiaFighter]

VBScript was just trying to cause trouble. He was banned for posting a lot of rubbish, particularly hateful things.

EDIT: I edited this post and the changes I made turned into a new post for some reason. Sorry. :)

[BiphobiaFighter]

VBScript was just trying to cause trouble. He was banned for posting a lot of rubbish, particularly hateful things (about transpeople, if I'm not getting him mixed up with someone else) just to cause trouble.

[Bluebiyou]

VBScript was just trying to cause trouble. He was banned for posting a lot of rubbish, particularly hateful things (about transpeople, if I'm not getting him mixed up with someone else) just to cause trouble.

True. VBScript was just an angry kid, but his post strictly regarding circumcision was mostly on track.
A hundred years from now it will be outlawed world wide as inhumane. People then will look back on us like barbarians: "How could they have done that?". Just like we look back on parents who used to sacrifice their firstborn.

Ah, virtually the same can be said for any social advancement over social custom.
"Why should you care about the feelings of a woman? They are born as property to serve; probably die in childbirth and need replacing anyway." A very practical approach for a man 200 or more years ago.

It's always been easy to be flippant about somebody else's flesh/rights/ well being.
It's always been hard to look honestly and truthfully at one's self and say "I'm wrong." and "I need to change/grow."
This has not changed with time. We're still the same gruesome animals by nature.

[wutheringheights]

Customs don't change because people become 'better' or more enlightened. Things change both for better and worse for various political, economic, etc, etc. reasons. It may well be that circumcision will be outlawed sometime in the future. It's also possible that there will be population control measures introduced in this vastly overpopulated world (and that'd take care of the circumcision issue to, wouldn't it?). It's also possible that extensively racist regimes will come to power and people of particular ethnicities or sexualities will be persecuted... wait a minute, that's happening already.

[the mage]

Well, this one strikes with vestigial religious overtones and cultural norms being questioned, which is healthy.

Babies should not be cut, but the newest science confirms several health benefits from it. It is another choice.. or should be..

[Bisexualnewbie]

Hi there,
I'm not religious myself but I read this article and thank god almighty that I was born in England and not mutilated by some doctor on my parents wish.
Think if I were I would go over and cut my parents left hand off and see how they like half the feeling.

[gfofbiguy]

Another article about circumcision - Female Circumcision:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080803/ap_on_he_me/egypt_the_circumcision_battle;_ylt=AntxNKczRsgirbA MXDG7.ges0NUE

Grass-roots effort in Egypt fights 'cutting' girls
By ANNA JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer

SULTAN ZAWYIT, Egypt - In this small Nile River farming village, Maha Mohammed has started to doubt whether she should circumcise her two daughters.

A year ago, she had few qualms about female genital mutilation, the practice of cutting a girl's clitoris and sometimes other genitalia. She herself was cut two decades ago, and she fears her daughters will not find husbands otherwise.

But Mohammed also has heard that circumcision can be medically risky and emotionally painful. And a strong-willed neighbor, another woman, has been dropping by her house regularly to persuade her to say no.

"I hear that girls suffer not just physically but psychologically," the 31-year-old Mohammed said. "But I am afraid. I don't want my daughters to have uncontrollable demands for sex."

Such doubts are significant. With vigorous grass-roots campaigns and the passage of tough laws against circumcision, Egypt seems to be making a dent in this deeply ingrained practice, thousands of years old. The number of young girls circumcised is now steadily declining in a country where an estimated 96 percent of married Egyptian women have had their genitals cut.

The most recent comprehensive study predicts about 63 percent of Egyptian girls 9 years old and under will be circumcised over the next decade. The numbers are lower in urban areas like Cairo — about 40 percent — but higher for rural areas in the south — about 78 percent, the government's 2005 demographic and health survey predicts.

The lower circumcision rate in urban areas is attributed to higher income and education levels and greater access to information. But in the villages along the Nile, where the rate is highest, a grass-roots effort is under way to bring information straight to people's homes.

The door-to-door campaign to end female genital mutilation is slow and time-consuming. It publicly plays down any outside help or connections to Western aid groups.

Instead, local activists focus on convincing Egyptians, one woman, one family and one village at a time. Often they reach out to women who have turned against the practice on their own, appealing to them to approach neighbors whose daughters are between ages 8 and 11.

Fatma Mohammed Ali is one.

The 35-year-old woman suffered intense complications after being circumcised at age 13, including severe pain during childbirth. Now she regularly visits her neighbor — Mohammed — gently discouraging her from the practice and using her own family as an example.

Neither of Ali's daughters was circumcised. Both are physically "normal" and one attends university — a high achievement for a woman from this village, Ali says.

"I don't care what everyone thinks. I was really harmed, and I didn't want this for my daughters," said Ali, a proud woman who often sits with her arms crossed against her chest. "When I talk about my experience, many become convinced. They also see how my daughters are good and religious."

It's difficult to encourage village women to go public with their views on the subject, said Nevine Saad Fouad, the project manager for child protection with a group called the Better Life Association for Comprehensive Development in the nearby city of Minya.

But when village women do go public, the results are astonishing.

Of some 3,000 families targeted over the past few years in several nearby villages, more than half say they have abandoned the practice, nearly 800 are undecided and fewer than 500 say they will continue to circumcise their daughters.

The key is convincing villages that stopping circumcision is an Egyptian idea — not one imported by international aid groups or Western governments, Fouad said. The group also promotes homegrown activities such as community plays, discussions with local doctors and religious debates.

Along with local groups taking action, Egypt's government has also been discouraging the practice in recent years. The National Council for Childhood and Motherhood has developed programs to help villages declare themselves against the cutting and sponsored an influential campaign of TV commercials and billboards featuring a young Egyptian girl.

Last year, the Ministry of Health prohibited licensed medical professionals from performing the procedure, and Egypt's parliament voted in June to ban it as part of a law protecting children. But activists stress that laws alone aren't enough.

"There is a wave of change right now," said Mona Amin of the childhood and motherhood council. "But we must keep this momentum, this intensity."

The pressure to uphold the tradition in this conservative, socially close-knit nation of 80 million people remains strong.

Many women fear potential husbands will reject daughters as impure or immoral. Medical rumors — including that circumcision is the only way to control a girl's sexual desires — are rampant. Others believe that abandoning the practice is caving to Western pressures to change their society.

Female genital mutilation is practiced in Africa and the Middle East by Muslims as well as Christians

In Egypt, leaders of both religions have spoken against it, including Coptic Christian Pope Shenouda III and Egypt's Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, who issued a fatwa against it in 2007. But others, especially some local Muslim leaders, continue to give their blessing.

Egyptians also receive mixed messages from midwives and some doctors, Fouad said. Some doctors, midwives and even barbers make home visits, giving circumcision sales pitches — just to make money off the $10 for an operation, Fouad believes.

For now, for every mother who agrees not to circumcise her daughters, many others still go ahead, activists say — women like Samia Ali Taha, who lives in the same village as Ali and Mohammed.

Taha is convinced she must circumcise her daughter a year from now, in the summer after the girl finishes sixth grade. She feels that way despite visits from another woman neighbor who has told her that the medical rumors — including that a woman's clitoris will grow if not cut — are false.

"It's not an option. We can't have it otherwise," said Taha, 32. "It is something we have grown up with and our ancestors have done."

But at a nearby house, sitting with a 6-year-old daughter cradled in her lap, Mohammed says she is slowly being convinced the other way.

"Maybe I am 70 percent for not doing it. Part of my change of heart is talking with Fatma and others," Mohammed said.

The young mother hesitates. "But I am still confused," she says.

___

Associated Press Writer Pakinam Amer contributed to this report.

[coyotedude]

Coyotedude..you should have left this one alone....it only brings out the subtle...and not so subtle forms of bigotry that still exists today.

Decisions about circumcision face all parents of young boys, not just those who belong to religious and cultural traditions (such as Judaism) with thousands of years of history and belief about this practice. It is not anti-Semitic for me, as the father of a young boy, to ask whether circumcision is an appropriate choice to make for my son. And it is wholly appropriate for me to ask others who have faced this same decision for their perspectives and experiences - and to share my own perspective and experience with others in turn. In that sense, I respectfully disagree with your assertion above.

That doesn't mean that I am unaware of how sensitive this topic may be for Jews (and others with similar religious traditions). And indeed, there is most certainly reason to be sensitive - exhibit A being the appalling anti-Semitism displayed by certain individuals in this thread.

Whatever one's position on circumcision may be, there is no reason to stoop to such ugly and hateful remarks as I have read in these posts. While I do not believe in censorship, I have no problem in calling such remarks ignorant and disgusting. Such bigoted rubbish is needlessly hurtful and detracts from thoughtful and meaningful discussion. I for one utterly reject this line of unthinking fanaticism.

I certainly expected heated discussion and strong feeling with this topic. But I also expected us all to act like adults. We can have strong opinions and still be respectful of one another as human beings. None of us are perfect; none of us have all the answers to life's nagging questions. None of us have any reason to put ourselves on a pedestal above others with whom we may disagree on any given issue.

By the way, I am quite well aware that bigotry is alive and well in 2008. And not just in the form of anti-Semitism, either. Racism, sexism, homophobia, bias against all non-Christian religious traditions - all these continue to raise their ugly heads, their insidious cancer spreading from older generations to newer. Indeed, one would think that as bisexuals, we would be less inclined to bigotry, given that we ourselves can suffer from the corrosive attitudes of many straights and even some gays. Sadly, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Peace

[darkeyes]

Hav railed bout male circumcison before... not gonna this time..jus seems sensible 2 me that wen guys r old an mature enuff 2 decide for themselves they want ther knob mutilated...then fine.. go ahead... until then..they shud b left foreskin an all in 1 piece unless an until ther is a justifiable medical reason 2 remove it. Ne thin else is..soz 2 say a grievous assault on a minor.. an ther shud b appropriate measures in law 2 prevent it an punish those responsible.

Jus don get me started on female circumcision.... ther me cud rail foreva... so for now..me hold me tongue for now cos think ther is much more of a concensus on this among us all...

[rissababynta]

A comment on sensitivity...I don't know many guys who have a huge problem getting off once they get going, cut or un-cut, whatEVER!

A comment on female circumcision...if you are all referring to the full circumcision and not the partial, I really don't know where you are coming from because it's the same thing as cutting off the tip of yor dick, wich is NOT what happens during a male circumcision. Cutting off just the clit hood is the equivelant of a male circumcision, not cutting off the whole clit.


Anyway, on to the REAL bitchy part of this post...


No offense, but...


VBScript, you are just as fucked up as the anti-abortionists who proudly wave "aborted fetus'" around clinics because you can't think of a better way to push your opinion on people other than "shock".


This may be the hormones talking, but seriously, fuck that fuckin shit. And fuck anyone who actually thinks that that picture bullshit was a good idea.


I hope Drew deletes this post because my hormones will calm down and probably make me feel regretful of this post in the morning.

But til then, i say fuck it. Maybe I feel like being insulting for once damn it.


And, yes, I'm aware of VBScripts banning, but I still felt like yelling at him...

[coyotedude]

Anyway, on to the REAL bitchy part of this post...


Rissa, I'd really rather not fuck him at all, if you don't mind! :eek: :eek: :eek:

But seriously, hope you and your hormones feel better soon. Until then, I am sending thoughts of chocolate your way....

[Bluebiyou]

A comment on sensitivity...I don't know many guys who have a huge problem getting off once they get going, cut or un-cut, whatEVER!
rissababynta
Let's presume you are unmutilated, that you feel 100&#37; of the vaginal feelings you were born with/into.
Then enter a male; a male who confidently says "I don't know about women who have a problem about being circumcised, as as least half of the nerve endings exist up in the vagina around the cervix, whatEVER!"

In both cases, it's easy to be indifferent about something different from yourself.


A comment on female circumcision...if you are all referring to the full circumcision and not the partial, I really don't know where you are coming from because it's the same thing as cutting off the tip of yor dick, wich is NOT what happens during a male circumcision. Cutting off just the clit hood is the equivelant of a male circumcision, not cutting off the whole clit.

... and what is your proof?
This leads back to a well established philosophical debate "my pain is worse than your pain".
Perhaps a better comparison would be involuntary mutilation of a man's 'most important' member', his penis; to involuntary mutilation of a woman's 'most important' member, her face.


This may be the hormones talking, but seriously, fuck that fuckin shit. And fuck anyone who actually thinks that that picture bullshit was a good idea.
Why do you have a problem with the pictures? Do you believe they are faked? Photoshopped?
Do you react the same way to photos of WWII concentration camps?
If so, you are a sensitive person. Certainly you did not allow circumcision your male children because you ARE so empathetic. My congratulations.

Parents who have mutilated their children (male or female) are unlikely to change because facing absolute reality (like those pictures displayed) is more painful than blindly holding to "we did what's right". (this is called neurosis in psychological terms).

Proof of this is simple. Those of you who have done this to your children, offer them twice the penile feeling... upon their 18th birthday. That upon their whim (not unlike the whim to destroy) you will create 12-15 square inches of the most evolutionarily advanced skin on the human body.. that you will reconnect the hundreds/thousands of neural paths, veins, arteries... as good as if they had never been destroyed. In addition you will make sure that the new foreskin is 100% functional and cosmetically perfect......... I don't think the leading doctor in the world can lie that well....


And, yes, I'm aware of VBScripts banning, but I still felt like yelling at him...
For good reason.
VBScript's post IS shocking.
VBScript is our troll.
And while I don't usually agree with him in his unrelenting anger...
His anti-circumcision posts are well researched and very correct.
...and his comments relating Nazi treatment of Jews to Jewish treatment of Palestinians (Philistines) is, while not entirely untrue, but greatly exaggerated. Palestinians better equate to the second class citizenry of black americans of the 1960's.

And to you, Darkeyes, rest assured I maintain that neither male or female should be harmed physically, or psychologically. All are sacred! Free will over custom mutilation!

[rissababynta]

[QUOTE=Bluebiyou;109029]rissababynta


Why do you have a problem with the pictures? Do you believe they are faked? Photoshopped?
QUOTE]

i'm not a professional and don't know either way if they are or not, but like i said i have a problem with the pictures because i think it is pathetic when people have to start throwing images of things out of pure shock value because that is the best way that they can think of to push their opinion on someone.

[rissababynta]

But seriously, hope you and your hormones feel better soon. Until then, I am sending thoughts of chocolate your way....


chocolate....*drools a little*

[Bluebiyou]

i'm not a professional and don't know either way if they are or not, but like i said i have a problem with the pictures because i think it is pathetic when people have to start throwing images of things out of pure shock value because that is the best way that they can think of to push their opinion on someone.

I can very much appreciate the fact that the photos are shocking.
If the photos had been inserted in a random thread, then yes, they'd be inappropriate.
But, this IS a thread about circumcision, which is NOT a pretty, petty, or impersonal thing.
Circumcision is socially presented, because of the barbarity of our culture, as mild as a selection between vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry. Circumcised or uncircumcised?
There are those of us who are unafraid of social rejection by standing up against this child molestation.
Think of the suffragettes. They worked upon the absurd notion of the worth of women and that women actually had 'rights'. They believed that a married woman could actually be 'raped' by her husband! How could a woman, giving herself in matrimony be 'raped' by her husband who loves and provides for her? The very concept is absurd!
Likewise, how can loving parents harm their children by choosing circumcision for their son or daughter? It's a parental 'choice' and circumcision is always the healthy choice for boys and girls, but still a parents 'right' (do you want that baby with vanilla chocolate, strawberry, or mutilated?).

If you do this to your child, take responsibility:
1. do this to yourself first. Mother and father; repeat the operation if it was already done to you (without pain medication, just like the baby).
2. Have the guts to watch your handiwork. Don't 'disguise' it with ceremony, or hide yourself from the brutal reality. Watch your baby scream. :)
3. Make sure you're ready to play God twice. You're willing to destroy... that's playing God once... years later, when the child reaches adulthood, offer to restore - as good as or better than original - the damage you willed upon them. Create and reattach the perfect flesh you flippantly destroyed.

I stand resolutely (and often alone) against the willfully ignorant harming the innocent... it takes a lot of energy to keep fighting for the good cause...
As far as racism...
Islam should categorically reject female circumcision.
Judaism should categorically reject male circumcision.
any other choice is immoral.

[rissababynta]

no offense but i find it hard to read your posts blue because you tend to kind of go off and i get bored easily. sorry :-( i think what you just posted is basically the same thing you have posted before in this thread, which if you choose to do it by all means...but I think that I'll just move on.

and by the way, as long as I can still cum I would have no problem cutting my clit hood off, I DID watch it be performed on my son WITH numbing ointment and he did NOT scream, and as for playing God, I hope you are against things such as braces as well because the are by no means natural, they are not the most comfortable things in the world because it is the literal shifting of bone and many times it is done simply for cosmetic reasons...

[Bluebiyou]

Braces do not destroy. Weak analogy. Even when I got braces, the doctor asked my permission to proceed.
Sometimes, infants only days old, do not know the 'proper' reaction to hideous trauma (as evidenced by the fact that they seldom write their congressman).
Have you studied the common reaction of a 3 day old to a traumatic car accident?
Did you do it (circumcision) to yourself first?...
Only a true leader would...
Why don't you run out and circumcise your face? Imagine the beauty of freedom from mouth cancer! Vanilla and chocolate. Try destroying some of your flesh you've learned to value... for a needless whim.

Yes, yes, very hateful and challenging.

Better yet, and most importantly. Are you ready to offer your child complete reparation of what you intentionally inflicted?
Can you create 12 -15 square inches of the most evolutionarily advanced flesh and add it perfectly... upon his request? Of course you can't, you can only destroy.

Try betraying everything you know and understand, ... and create and add to his life/penis. Really create and add... real flesh.

I know this is savage. To some extent I am truly sorry. To another... you chose this... not your child. You owe it to your child to educate him (them) in what you really destroyed (informed consent means you tell him the REAL loss). Telling a child that they've lost 1/2 their sexual feeling before they've matured sexually... is another move in neurosis...
But I'm sure you... and many others... will have no problem in the neurosis continuum. It is very hard to rise above common evil.

[rissababynta]

Braces do not destroy. Weak analogy. Even when I got braces, the doctor asked my permission to proceed.
Sometimes, infants only days old, do not know the 'proper' reaction to hideous trauma (as evidenced by the fact that they seldom write their congressman).
Have you studied the common reaction of a 3 day old to a traumatic car accident?
Did you do it (circumcision) to yourself first?...
Only a true leader would...
Why don't you run out and circumcise your face? Imagine the beauty of freedom from mouth cancer! Vanilla and chocolate. Try destroying some of your flesh you've learned to value... for a needless whim.

Yes, yes, very hateful and challenging.

Better yet, and most importantly. Are you ready to offer your child complete reparation of what you intentionally inflicted?
Can you create 12 -15 square inches of the most evolutionarily advanced flesh and add it perfectly... upon his request? Of course you can't, you can only destroy.

Try betraying everything you know and understand, ... and create and add to his life/penis. Really create and add... real flesh.

I know this is savage. To some extent I am truly sorry. To another... you chose this... not your child. You owe it to your child to educate him (them) in what you really destroyed (informed consent means you tell him the REAL loss). Telling a child that they've lost 1/2 their sexual feeling before they've matured sexually... is another move in neurosis...
But I'm sure you... and many others... will have no problem in the neurosis continuum. It is very hard to rise above common evil.


wow, i would never have guessed that you were gonna write a book in response :rolleyes: not for nothing, i know many circumcised men who would by no means consider their penis' "destroyed".

In the end though, I come to realize today that sitting here arguing, or debating, or whatever you want to call it, is a total waste of my time considering that this is all matter of OPINION...especially when people choose to voice their opinions as total fact.

I'm just not that passionate about other people's opinions to care to spend much time on this I guess. After all, I am usually a follower of my own rule "have your opinion and be respectful of other people's" which I am from this point on going to follow in this thread, and from this point on I'm sure I will continue to see many choose to take another path....ahem...

[coyotedude]

chocolate....*drools a little*

So here's the question: milk, dark, or white?

tee hee hee

[rissababynta]

So here's the question: milk, dark, or white?

tee hee hee

hate dark and so so on white...absolutely LOOOVE milk haha. My favorite is Dove milk chocolate...*plans to run out to get some now*

[coyotedude]

3. Make sure you're ready to play God twice.

Um... I may very well be wrong, but this statement makes me guess you're not a parent. If you were a parent, you'd know that one of the hardest parts of the job is that you have to play God all the time when your kids are young.

As a parent of young children, it falls on you to make all sorts of decisions affecting your kids. Are we fucking up our son if we have him circumcised? Are we fucking up our son if we don't have him circumcised? Hell, how about vaccines? Are we dooming our children to autism if we have them vaccinated - or are we dooming them to illness and potential death if we don't? Are we protecting our kids' teeth when we given them fluoride, or are we poisoning them? Do our kids spend too much time in daycare - or are we stunting their social development if they don't spend enough time in daycare? The list is endless.

And guess what? We as parents don't always make the right choices. Sometimes we just fuck up, plain and simple. Every single one of us. The only saving grace is that kids by and large are amazingly resilient. As long as we keep our fuck-ups to a minimum, they usually grow up just fine, despite our best efforts!

That's one reason that I don't condemn parents who circumcise their sons, even though my wife and I chose not to circumcise our own son when we adopted him 3 years ago. In the large scheme of life, (male) circumcision is pretty damn low on my list of great evils. Personally, I see little benefit to the procedure, particularly given the costs to the poor little guys. But I'm a little more concerned about things like kids going hungry at night, or kids getting the shit beat out of them by people who should never have been parents in the first place, or kids caught in the crossfire of stupid fucking wars between stupid fucking adult morons. (And by that I do not mean to criticize American soldiers, most of whom are not morons and most of whom try their damnedest to do right even in a war zone; but rather the morons in government who put American soldiers into that unenviable position in the first place.)

Being circumcised myself, I've managed to live a pretty good life thus far. I have a loving family, a good job where I enjoy the respect of my peers, a nice home, and enough financial resources to share with those who are less fortunate than myself yet still have a little bit of fun on occasion. And while I may not have the same sensitivity during sex that I would with a foreskin, I still have no complaints in the orgasm department.

Would I like my foreskin back? It might be nice, but I'd rather have world peace.

Speaking of which.... peace

[coyotedude]

hate dark and so so on white...absolutely LOOOVE milk haha. My favorite is Dove milk chocolate...*plans to run out to get some now*

Aiigh! I am so disappointed in you! Dark chocolate rules!!!!!!

Oh, well, I'll still be your friend..... :bigrin:

Peace, love, and chocolate

[mrarnie]

HI, new to the forum but have to say something on this one. I started restoring my foreskin 2 couple of years ago. (one of thousands of men in the process in this country now) I was cut at birth and always felt that they had no moral right to take a part of my body for any reason religious, laziness, to look like daddy or any other. The process keeps things covered and has lead to more skin and more sensitivity. The increased pleasure keeps me wondering how much more would have been available if I had the thousands of nerve endings that were lost and not restorable. Time to get off my soap, box but if sex were just about "getting off" as was stated earlier then I guess it would not matter.

But for me more is better in many ways.....

[mikey3000]

I am cut, and have been with others who are cut, and no one has any issues with it at all. Now you go into any young man's apartment or dormatory room and just see how clean it is. What makes you think they'd take any better care of themselves?

Plus the astounding evidence that it does help prevent the spread of STIs.

[darkeyes]

I am cut, and have been with others who are cut, and no one has any issues with it at all.

Plus the astounding evidence that it does help prevent the spread of STIs.

Ya r as ya r.. tho ya prob didn hav ne choice in 1st place.. removin me breasts helps me avoid breast cancer but am buggad if me is gonna do it... an as it happens.. hav had breast cancer an it scares the poop outa me that sumday it mite recur.. but me tidgies stay...

..an if me membas correctly.. wen me dabbled wiv the lesser mortal, me had more fun wiv guys who wer cavalier than me eva did wiv a roundhead.. not that me misses eitha lemme say..an mos wimmen me knos feel jus the same..but then..thats 'ere innit? :) If more a ya...cavalier or roundhead looked afta ya bloody personal hygiene then mayb that wud do summat bout cuttin sti's an all..

[shybipinay]

Gee, we hardly know where to begin. First, thanks to coyotedude for expressing the parental role so well.

My husband is circumcised and he has no complaints about it. He does not feel he lost 50% of his sexual sensitivity. He said, if he did, good thing, because with 50% more sensitivity, he would always cum too soon.

We had our son circumcised in the first week after his birth - highly recommended rather than waiting until later in life, like when he is old enough to decide for himself. To do it when the child is older or even an adult, apparently is far more painful and takes longer to heal. There are 2 methods for male circumcision. One is plasti-bell and the other which is rare, is the mogen-clamp technique, done by a Jewish Doctor (Pollock) in New Westminster BC. My husband is familiar with both methods and the latter is far less painful, traumatizing and/or risky. Our son slept thru the whole procedure. The plasti-bell method is definitely more painful and not nearly as neat or quick. See the following link:

http://www.pollockclinics.com/circumcision/quick.html

For all those who believe in uncut cock, sorry, we believe different and for alot of reasons including the unclean and disease spreading reasons. If we had the chance to do it over again, we would without hesitation. We don't see that he is suffering any trauma or other ailment as a result of our decision. Besides, neither my husband or I have any compulsion to suck an uncut cock. We've seen pics and they are just plain ugly. So, for the women/men of our son's future, they have a nice looking cock to suck that will be clean and disease free and likely just as sensitive as Dad's.

For more information, we suggest you contact Dr. Pollock directly. He is a great doctor and very easy to talk with. Contact him here:

http://www.pollockclinics.com/circumcision/circumcision-locations.html

drneil@pollockclinics.com

[rissababynta]

OH get the FUCK OVER IT! *rips out hair*

If you are for it...good for you. If you area against it...good for you too.

If you think that one is nastier than the other, then stay away from it. Otherwise, quit your bitching and move on with your life!

[Realist]

I wish I had never been circumcised.

I've only had one lover who hadn't been cut, but if you've ever given a hand job to one who's uncut you'd know how much longer a stroke you can make. Cut men, like me, can experience a painful situation, when you pull the skin too hard and stretch it.

My lover was fastidiously clean and I never detected any foul odor, or taste.

I can see where cleanliness might take more effort, but I can't see that it'd be a problem. I wish I had been given the option of keeping it, or not....instead of having that decision made for me.

[shybipinay]

Quit spamming your quack of a doctor.

He's hardly a quack. At least we made an effort to make an informed decision and didn't trash others for their beliefs in the process as you are doing here. You have no right to tell me what I can post or not. Look to your own posts before you criticize the content of someone else's post. Some people may actually find those links informative. It's obvious you don't and will refuse to even look.


Lasting longer during sex is not related to circumcision or getting your penis mutilated based on pointless aesthetic reasons like you did or by religion.

But you related it that way by saying an uncut man lasts longer. you just contradicted yourself. Busted!!


It's been proven that men who are intact with a foreskin last longer since they have complete control over their penis and get stimulated in ways during sex that men who are cut are just jealous of and can't even imagine or comprehend.

Prove it other than to state your own personal agenda! My husband can last upwards of an hour or more. It's called technique and practice. To each his own. Some men last long, others don't. He's hardly jealous of any uncut man. Maybe some, like you, are jealous of other men for whatever reason.


If you had actually cared about your son you would have left his penis intact with a foreskin and not had it mutilated just for shallow and asthetic reasons that you did just so he'd look like his dad. :rolleyes:

If you believe that, then contact the Ministry of Children and Families where I live and tell them we abused our child. BTW, the Ministry manager of our local office is also our next door neighbour. I'm sure you'll get a long way with her. You'd better read our post again. This was not just to have son look like Dad.


I hope one day your son gets angry at you and is mad that he did not have the choice to remain intact and decide if he wants to keep his foreskin or not with his own free will and not something that you as misinformed parents decided for him.

He won't get angry just as my husband is not angry at his parents because we will talk with him and educate him. He will understand that to have the procedure at the age of an adult, where presumably he can make his own decisions, could prove detrimental to his health as the research we studied revealed. Not to mention the level of pain is far greater having it done at an adult age and the healing time is much longer.


Cut penises can be ugly too and have all sorts of defects and there are men who have had most or all of their cock removed during routine infant male genital mutilation or circumcision.

The key words there are "can be". What percentage of men are we talking about here? What method was used? We listed 2 and I bet a switch blade could be number 3 and the cause of the defects and mutilations. Get me?


I've been with men who are cut and they have little to no sensitivity in their penis and it's only after manually stretching their remaining foreskin if they have it that they regained some penile pleasure.

Awwwwww..........you must be pretty lousy in bed. We feel sorry for you that you can't arouse your cut men so well.


Then there are the nasty and ugly scars from circumcision that are always going to be there and a penis that is cut does lose both the length and circumference that it would have had more of if it had been left alone and kept intact with a foreskin.

What ugly scars? My boys don't have any. My husband is just big enough for me. Anything bigger would hurt.


Circumcision is not some magic bullet that prevents someone from getting STDs and using condoms and safer sex techniques actually work a lot better than genital mutilation does. Even condoms are not 100% guaranteed to prevent STDs

Never said it was a magic bullet. Maybe just a good deterrent (spelling?). Not everyone can use condoms.


All of the men I know who are HIV+ or have had or have an STD are cut. If male genital mutilation were that effective at preventing HIV and STDs thousands of men in America would not have gotten STDs or HIV when safer sex was not known about.

You must not know very many men. Never said it was totally effective at preventing HIV or STD's. Maybe they shouldn't be bare backing. I'll bet you don't even know the root cause of HIV. Read a book called the "Medical Mafia" by Doctor Guylaine Lanctot. The answer will surprise you. I'll give you a hint:

Acquired Immune Deficiency


Most of the men in my age group grew up at a time when circumcision was done without even parental permission.

So?


Most of my contemporaries now dead from HIV complications were circumcised. Most older men in my age group now fighting HIV or other STDs are circumcised.

Again, you don't know many men do you?


Research has shown that a penis that is intact is actually more "clean" than a penis that is cut.

Just how skewed/biased is this research. You talk loud about it, but provide no facts, evidence or other proof beyond a reasonable doubt. We at least provided a link to a healthier circumcision option. Did we do a bad thing?


It's very easy to keep a penis with a foreskin clean you just wash with soap and water like you should do with any other part of your body.

We understand it is a little more than that for uncut cocks. Check your facts and get back to us.


Your doctor is lying to you that your son "slept" as when male genital mutilation is done to infant boys they pass out from the pain and that is what he is describing as "sleep". :rolleyes:

I guess our eyes were lying to us also as he was asleep when we brought him in to the doctor's office. I guees our eyes were lying to us as we watched the procedure just inches away from the doctor. Call it "circumcision" instead of continuing the fear factor with your "mutilation" terminology. We're not afraid of you no matter what you say.


If you actually really cared about your son and about his penis and sexual health you would have left him intact like he is supposed to be.

Did you ever stop to think that parents who do opt for circumcision do care about their child and his over all health in post puberty years? Where is it written that he is supposed to remain intact? Show us the law and then call the cops.


Cut penises are just ugly, mutilated, and damaged and they have a major part missing that's fun for men and women to play with the foreskin!Circumcision is a crime against humanity.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Trying to shove it down my throat (pun intended) as you have blatantly done here has us reaching for the "iggy" button.

[shybipinay]

I hope one day your son gets angry at you and is mad that he did not have the choice to remain intact and decide if he wants to keep his foreskin or not with his own free will and not something that you as misinformed parents decided for him.

I forgot one very important comment. The second you wished ill will towards my son and family, your argument and indeed your very character and personality lost all respect and credibility with us.

[jem_is_bi]

Don't forget that the length and width of the penis are made smaller and decreased by circumcision too!

Maybe true, my present partner has his foreskin and is really really big.
I am cut and not so big. Could genetics be an issue too?

But, neither of us is unhappy about the skin or lack of it. Penile sensitivity? He is not so easy to bring to climax as me. But, that means I can have as much fun as I want before I make him cum. I know I should be harder to please because I am cut, but when he sucks me it feels soo good.
For sure, he definitely needs to get it clean before sex or it stinks, smells and tastes like dead fish. So, he always gets a shower just before sex with me. Me, I do not have that problem but I always get very clean for him.
So, I am happy that I am cut and he is not cut and would be just as happy with all other combinations of cut and not cut. Mutilation? My dick is looking good to me and him. So, I do not feel that way at all.

[bicurcple]

the idea that a mutilated penis is somehow "cleaner" when it's not, and circumcision of men and women should be outlawed STDs.

"Mutilated" is a bad choice of words, circumcision has been around a long...long..time. It is cleaner and for it to be outlawed is ridiculous, are we living in the 1900's Soviet Union. It is all personal preference. You may not like it but to have that kind of closed mind is what should be outlawed.

[tenni]

Pasa
You're hilarious sometimes...lol I tend to agree with you on this issue.

One reason why we may not see uncut dick in porno is that we are watching North American porn? Maybe, they have uncut dick in Euro porn?

[bicurcple]

Braces do not destroy. Weak analogy. Even when I got braces, the doctor asked my permission to proceed.
Sometimes, infants only days old, do not know the 'proper' reaction to hideous trauma (as evidenced by the fact that they seldom write their congressman).
Have you studied the common reaction of a 3 day old to a traumatic car accident?
Did you do it (circumcision) to yourself first?...
Only a true leader would...
Why don't you run out and circumcise your face? Imagine the beauty of freedom from mouth cancer! Vanilla and chocolate. Try destroying some of your flesh you've learned to value... for a needless whim.

Yes, yes, very hateful and challenging.

Better yet, and most importantly. Are you ready to offer your child complete reparation of what you intentionally inflicted?
Can you create 12 -15 square inches of the most evolutionarily advanced flesh and add it perfectly... upon his request? Of course you can't, you can only destroy.

Try betraying everything you know and understand, ... and create and add to his life/penis. Really create and add... real flesh.

I know this is savage. To some extent I am truly sorry. To another... you chose this... not your child. You owe it to your child to educate him (them) in what you really destroyed (informed consent means you tell him the REAL loss). Telling a child that they've lost 1/2 their sexual feeling before they've matured sexually... is another move in neurosis...
But I'm sure you... and many others... will have no problem in the neurosis continuum. It is very hard to rise above common evil.

congratulations, I will no longer respond to threads on this site..........I can't stand narrowminded people who feel what they believe is right and that's it.
You people are pathetic...........goodbye

[coyotedude]

I think it might be helpful to repost this quote of mine from earlier in the thread:


I certainly expected heated discussion and strong feeling with this topic. But I also expected us all to act like adults. We can have strong opinions and still be respectful of one another as human beings. None of us are perfect; none of us have all the answers to life's nagging questions. None of us have any reason to put ourselves on a pedestal above others with whom we may disagree on any given issue.

It's just as true now as it was when I wrote it in 2008.

Peace

[darkeyes]

congratulations, I will no longer respond to threads on this site..........I can't stand narrowminded people who feel what they believe is right and that's it.
You people are pathetic...........goodbye

Dus luff peeps that stand and fight ther corner.. is it narrow minded to refuse to inflict on an infant summat wich is no less than a grievous assault and mutilation?

[TwylaTwobits]

I find this thread disturbing to me in many ways. I have three boys, they were all circumsized. Three different hospitals and three different doctors and they have had no issues and even peed right on time. The last one peed on the doctor as she was checking his circumcision the next day. The choice was presented to me and really for the reason that it was "the norm" I chose to have them cut. Nowhere in the discussion was anything mentioned about losing feeling or possible future problems, other than make sure they pee before they leave the hospital.

My boys will never be made fun of in the locker rooms after gym class. They will not feel different in the men's room's as they grow up. I made my decision and even after all the posts of negativity to it, I will not regret it. When they are old enough and have questions I'll answer them proudly.

So please don't tell me I abused my kids. They are three of the most loving and brilliant kids in the world.

[darkeyes]

Twyla..am not gonna tell you that you abused your kids.. you live in a country whose culture makes it the norm to have boys circumcised. I live in one where the opposite is the case and excepting for religious reasons it is relatively rare. Most of Europe do not cut and it is in my opinion quite right that this should be so.

It is quite right that we have a proper debate on the issue not just in these forums but in American society as a whole. We do not remove breast tissue from young girls for instance to prevent cancer of the breast as a preventative treatment to escape a disease which still kills many women.. and even men for that matter although in far fewer numbers. We abhor and do not allow female circumcision on infants in both our countries and quite rightly so. Any such surgery unless it is for sound medical reasons is an assault and unnecessary mutilation on a child. Some have outlined the damage done. It should therefore be prohibited.

In the United States, it is the "norm" for boys to be circumcised shortly after birth. Parents expect it and are encouraged, as you were by the medical profession. The abuse is not yours as a mother, but culpability is that of the medical profession who encourage circumcision and perform it for profit and American society who have never properly thought of this as an issue. They have never thought of it because it has always been the "norm" and is considered standard practice. It is time that parents began to stand up to the medical profession and campaign against this abuse of a child. At a personal level each parent should simply say no to any pressure from the medical profession when they press for it to be done. In time it will begin to be a thing of the past. The religious issue is something else, and will be much more difficult to stop circumcision completely because of that, but not I hope impossible.

I have argued much more passionately about this issue in the past, and that passion remains, but I must be getting old or something because I have moderated my view on this slightly. There are reasons why male circumcison can be performed, but not compelling reasons. I do not consider STD prevention sufficiently acceptable or any other disease prevention. If we went down that road for every disease we may as well cease to exist. If a child at some stage in the future when he is old enough to make an informed choice, then that is fine. Some women have their breasts removed as a preventative. That is not a route I could go down unless the cancer returns and I am left with no choice, yet I respect their decision which is informed and for them the correct one. So it should be with boys and circumcision. We deprive them of choice when they are truly able to make it.

My own view is that circumcision should be prohibited by law save in pressing medical cases.. but for now..the decision is left in the hands of parents.. parents can make leaving boys foreskin intacto the norm... I hope in time they do..

[MarieDelta]

Twyla..am not gonna tell you that you abused your kids.. you live in a country whose culture makes it the norm to have boys circumcised. I live in one where the opposite is the case and excepting for religious reasons it is relatively rare. Most of Europe do not cut and it is in my opinion quite right that this should be so.

It is quite right that we have a proper debate on the issue not just in these forums but in American society as a whole. We do not remove breast tissue from young girls for instance to prevent cancer of the breast as a preventative treatment to escape a disease which still kills many women.. and even men for that matter although in far fewer numbers. We abhor and do not allow female circumcision on infants in both our countries and quite rightly so. Any such surgery unless it is for sound medical reasons is an assault and unnecessary mutilation on a child. It should therefore be prohibited.

In the United States, it is the "norm" for boys to be circumcised shortly after birth. Parents expect it and are encouraged, as you were by the medical profession. The abuse is not yours as a mother, but culpability is that of the medical profession who encourage circumcision and perform it for profit and American society who have never properly thought of this as an issue. They have never thought of it because it has always been the "norm" and is considered standard practice. It is time that parents began to stand up to the medical profession and campaign against this abuse of a child. At a personal level each parent should simply say no to any pressure from the medical profession when they press for it to be done. In time it will begin to be a thing of the past. The religious issue is something else, and will be much more difficult to stop circumcision completely because of that, but not I hope impossible.

I have argued much more passionately about this issue in the past, and that passion remains, but I must be getting old or something because I have moderated my view on this slightly. There are reasons why male circumcison can be performed, but not compelling reasons. I do not consider STD prevention sufficiently acceptable or any other disease prevention. If we went down that road for every disease we may as well cease to exist. If a child at some stage in the future when he is old enough to make an informed choice, then that is fine. Some women have their breasts removed as a preventative. That is not a route I could go down unless the cancer returns and I am left with no choice, yet I respect their decision which is informed and for them the correct one. So it should be with boys and circumcision. We deprive them of choice when they are truly able to make it.

My own view is that circumcision should be prohibited by law save in pressing medical cases.. but for now..the decision is left in the hands of parents.. parents can make leaving boys foreskin intacto the norm... I hope in time they do..

It is the case with many things in American Medical practice.

Take for instance the way many of them treat intersexxed folks.

The practice of circumcision was originally started to curb masturbation.

[bicurcple]

Dus luff peeps that stand and fight ther corner.. is it narrow minded to refuse to inflict on an infant summat wich is no less than a grievous assault and mutilation?

I really do not like reading anything from you......It takes to long to figure out what your saying, just incase you didn't know..... you don't have to write with an accent.
Maybe it's just cause I am American but for you people to sit here and tell people who are cut that they are mutilated is pathetic, for you to tell me I mutilated my sons is pathetic. You are no better than the anti-abortionist who want to blow up a clinic to make your point. What will you do next....blow up a hospital where children are born because they do circumcisions? Give it up.........I am happy with my cock, I know many men who are cut and happy with their's. I know some who are un-cut who are happy with their's. It is just personal, some people like it and some people don't. Why can't it be left at that. Personally I think un-cut is gross, maybe that's just because I was raised that way....but again I am a free person who has my own beliefs and preferences.......That is what makes us human.

[rissababynta]

Dus luff peeps that stand and fight ther corner.. is it narrow minded to refuse to inflict on an infant summat wich is no less than a grievous assault and mutilation?

Fran, his comment about people being narrowminded could be applied to most things on this site, not just what he was referring to about how people in this thread are going over the top about how their opinion is the best. Like in your comment right here...for someone who has an opinion in favor of circumcision, this comment not only lets people know how you feel about it, but it is put in a way where a person on the side for it could feel insulted and feel as though you are saying that "this is the right way, otherwise you are a moster"...in so many words of course...

[darkeyes]

Fran, his comment about people being narrowminded could be applied to most things on this site, not just what he was referring to about how people in this thread are going over the top about how their opinion is the best. Like in your comment right here...for someone who has an opinion in favor of circumcision, this comment not only lets people know how you feel about it, but it is put in a way where a person on the side for it could feel insulted and feel as though you are saying that "this is the right way, otherwise you are a moster"...in so many words of course...

Think me comment in response 2 Twyla reflects how me feels Ris .. it is monstrous but its a monstrosity wich has been allowed 2 grow an becum acceptable an no 1 really thinks bout it 2 much.. it is an assault an it is a mutilation.. but its 1 wich society an the so called medical experts encourages in ur country... nowadays a better informed society shud put a stop 2 it... individually are peeps monsters over this? No..course not.. its how its always been.. an is dun for reasons wich really r jus not gud enuff ne more..but it don havta b..

[darkeyes]

I really do not like reading anything from you......It takes to long to figure out what your saying, just incase you didn't know..... you don't have to write with an accent.
Maybe it's just cause I am American but for you people to sit here and tell people who are cut that they are mutilated is pathetic, for you to tell me I mutilated my sons is pathetic. You are no better than the anti-abortionist who want to blow up a clinic to make your point. What will you do next....blow up a hospital where children are born because they do circumcisions? Give it up.........I am happy with my cock, I know many men who are cut and happy with their's. I know some who are un-cut who are happy with their's. It is just personal, some people like it and some people don't. Why can't it be left at that. Personally I think un-cut is gross, maybe that's just because I was raised that way....but again I am a free person who has my own beliefs and preferences.......That is what makes us human.

No better huh? Blow up clinics??? Shows ya wot ya kno bout me sweetheart...

Am not stoppin peeps from gettin circumcised..wanna c peeps do it for the rite reasons at an age wen they can make a properly informed decision.. THEY can make..NOT someone else.. thats proper freedom hun..

Sorry ya don like wot me sez or how me rites..but glad yas popped bak 2 say ya bit..:)

[bicurcple]

I understand what your trying to say, that an infant does not have the choice, but what about breast feeding? an infant does not have a choice in that matter either.....should I be upset with my mother because I was not breast fed.......or should I say that everyone who was breast fed is a freak...a monster. I just do not feel because you think it is mutilation and an atrocity that you are correct................It is just your opinion....and that is that. The threads on here that are against circumcision are just going overboard with it. So you feel it is wrong and it mutilation....whatever.....trying to make people who are circumcised feel like there is something wrong with them....that is what's wrong.

[bicurcple]

Parents make decisions for their children throughout their lives......for you to condemn for their choices because of your own belief is wrong!!!!!!!!!! Period!!!!!

[bicurcple]

If I waited for my sons to make their own choices they would be hype-up on sugar, playing video games 24-7 and would never step foot in a school.....and resenting me as they grow older because I didn't make them eat right or go to school..........because I want them to make their own decisions. LOL

[MarieDelta]

FWIW: Breast feeding does no permanent damage to the infant.

No one is saying that being circumcised makes you a freak.

There are some of us that wish we had been consulted before parts of our body got lopped off, however.

Am I angry with my parents about it? No, they were simply following the advice of the medical establishment (and in some cases weren't really given a choice.)

You might be asking or thinking "why does a pre-op transsexual care about her foreskin?" Because it could have been used to create a more realistic vagina. Now, I don't have that "material" to work with, due to a decision that my parents may not even have thought about.

But it does need to be put out there that this is a medically unnecessary procedure that changes the person for life without consent.

To do something because "that's the way we've always done it" or "because that's what everyone does" isn't always a good idea, especially when it changes a persons life.

:2cents:

[bicurcple]

To do something because "that's the way we've always done it" or "because that's what everyone does" isn't always a good idea, especially when it changes a persons life.

:

uh.......those decisions are made everyday..........Parents make decisions that will change their childs lives because "that's the way we've always done it" or "because that's what everyone does" or because that is the decision they felt was right for them........are you going to condemn all of them for all those decisions? Again your choice your belief's........and they are different from mine.

[bicurcple]

FWIW: Breast feeding does no permanent damage to the infant.

:

http://www.promom.org/101/

here is a link for a study that suggests breast fed children average a 10 point higher IQ than bottled fed..........my fucking parents..........those bastards could have made me smarter...........damn them..............they mutilated my brain...........lol

[shybipinay]

How is what that person said ill will?


Yo Bozo, with the similar handle and even similar comments and writing style to the other person (InTheNameOfLove) leaving us to believe you are both the same person using 2 different handles, what part of the following quote is not wishing ill will upon us????


I hope one day your son gets angry at you and is mad that he did not have the choice to remain intact and decide if he wants to keep his foreskin or not with his own free will and not something that you as misinformed parents decided for him.

Do I need to explain it to you???

Oh, for those who haven't seen uncut cock in porno flicks, we have a whole tape of uncut cocks picked off of satellite tv at a hotel. So it is out there. We don't watch it much and usually FF past the uncut scenes.

We totally agree with bicurcple but wondering why you're still posting after claiming you won't waste time with these pathetic people.

mariedelta: What about NOT breast feeding your baby? That was the point trying to be made, not the other way around as you have expressed it with your "FWIW" statement.

darkeyes: if a child waits until he is old enough to decide on circumcision, the risks become greater, the pain is far greater intensified and the healing time takes longer. We had a room mate who had his done while living with us. He went through hell. Incidentally, he is Scottish. See also bicurcple's comments.


I find this thread disturbing to me in many ways.

Thank-you TwylaTwobits

[TwylaTwobits]

Okay....i'm going to say it. WTF are you doing saying that circumsizing your children when they are babies, as recommended by the pediatrician who came to hospital to take care of your son, now molestation? Really, please get a grip. A personal opinion about circumcision doesn't make anyone's else's opinions or decisions either wrong or immoral.

[darkeyes]

I understand what your trying to say, that an infant does not have the choice, but what about breast feeding? an infant does not have a choice in that matter either.....should I be upset with my mother because I was not breast fed.......or should I say that everyone who was breast fed is a freak...a monster. I just do not feel because you think it is mutilation and an atrocity that you are correct................It is just your opinion....and that is that. The threads on here that are against circumcision are just going overboard with it. So you feel it is wrong and it mutilation....whatever.....trying to make people who are circumcised feel like there is something wrong with them....that is what's wrong.

Not sure yas grasped it hun.. mutilition is the harming or removal of a body or part of a body which should be there..a boy is born with a foreskin and it should be there. To deliberately mutilate someone is not necessarily an atrocity.. it depends on the reason and whether it was concensual.. to deliberately mutilate someone when it is unnecessary and without their permission is an atrocity...

..and no one is trying to make any who are circumcised that they are freaks.. quite the contrary... it is the culture of infant circumcision we are critical of.. not those who have been so cut...

.. let me put it this way.. what would you say if the government decided that all those men and boys who were uncircumcised were to be compelled to attend a hospital for the operation to be performed within 30 days of receipt of that notice? Would you not consider that those men and boys to be, against their will, the victims of an assault and an atrocity? Or does the will of a thinking being have no standing? They at least are able to try and do something about it. A 3 day old child has no say and can do nothing whatsoever.

[shybipinay]

As We said before, if you feel this way, please feel free to contact our local office of the Ministry of Children and Families and report us for child abuse, molestation or whatever. The manger's name is Susan Murray and her number is 250-674-6818. We're her next door neighbours. She'll know who you are talking about.

Otherwise SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP TRYING TO RAM YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS DOWN OUR THROATS!!!!!







Sorry Twyla,
And any other pro mutilation folks.
Reality sucks. The hospital charged you for the procedure. The hospital sold the foreskins for a very nice profit. The operation was medically unnecessary, painful, permanently harmful, done for the sake of your feelings of conformity, and ultimately abusive because... there was no medical threat/requirement... and it lacked their adult consent.
If you felt strongly about it, waited until they were 18, and then, with their permission, had it done it, technically would not be abuse; just your obsession.
You might have been a fantastic 'mom' otherwise; that doesn't change the damage you deliberately inflicted.
How great can a dad be to counter sexual abuse on his child?
How great can a mother be to counter sexual abuse on her child?
Circumcision is and has been to the penis and sex life what lobotomy was to the brain. Sure it "still functions" and on extremely rare occasions "perhaps better than it otherwise might have".
I don't have much patience with neurotic denial; or yielding to what's popular.
You did it. You (I'm laughing) can certainly never give back - even with the greatest science today - even a small fraction, of what you blythely destroyed.

If your kids were born in the 1950's, the above truth remains, but it would have been an angelic or brilliant work of sainthood for you to rise above culture.
If in the 1960's (we don't have to conform - we can do our own thing), yeah, you would have been above the average person to not do it because it was morally wrong but medical community supported.
If in the 1970's (don't conform, do your own thing), kinda blurry, morally.
If in the 1980's (conformity? show me scientific reason), you really were borderline deliberately ignorant. You (without any medical need) declined to review material available either statistically in the library (WorldHealthOrganization records since 1945) and the actual publishing of books outlining the fallacy of circumcision. You failed to research the science of an important question.
If in the 1990's, you were consciously ignorant. Dr. Spock publicly reversed his position. You have already heard and ignored (by not investigating in any library) the beginning of the arguments against. You have already heard and understood the concept of "adult consent", and denied that "privilege" for your children.
If after 2000, you really have a feminist problem or severe pathologies. Not just feminist (pro woman in a positive sense), but feminist hate-and-harm-men (in exactly the same way a man would rape a daughter and say "it was to prepare her for womanhood"). The internet... google... If you were born and raised in the bush country/desert and seldom never hear/read anything from civilization, or have an IQ of less than 90, then you can fall under the ignorance plea...
If after 2007, you are a child molester and should do hard jail time for the scum you are (but breath a sigh of relief - you won't). There is no difference from you doing sexual harm to an innocent child for the sake of satisfying your feelings of conformity, than a man doing sexual harm to a child for his feelings of sexual need.
Both are doing clear irreversible sexual harm to innocent children only to appease the unrelated feelings of an adult.

Unfortunately, lobotomies remained legal and despite clear scientific evidence against, remained an option decades after proven ...a destructive shot in the dark. Although if performed now, on less than 20 people a year worldwide, might actually have a scientific ghost of a chance of actually being beneficial, once in a while. Perhaps the same number of men will actually benefit from circumcision.


Vent you spleen now at me for telling the truth. :)

The final truth is:
If your children want to lose at least half the feeling in their penis in a purely destructive mutilation, it should be their idea and decision as consenting adults after reaching 18 years old.
If you are forcing your sexuality (or pathology) on a child by mutilating his penis... well, that kind of defines the whole thing now, doesn't it?
If you've already molested him, you can live in denial that you didn't harm him... or just face the fact you molested an innocent - for your own emotional reasons only you know - and then come to terms.

As much as you hate me or what I've said, it doesn't change the truth of what I've said.

Feel free to hate me :). I merely stand against adults molesting children, legally or illegally, conformist or non conformist, gay or straight, pseudo science medical/wives tales or reality...
You might as well argue female circumcision for the same reasons already presented... sheesh... or just make up reasons to protect your ego... or your sense of society comfort... etc

For goodness sake. If you're obsessed with chopping off something of your innocent child to make him or her 'perfect' chop of some toes or some seldom used fingers... avoid chopping off personal parts... like important parts of the penis.

[TwylaTwobits]

No sorry, I didn't fuck up. I didn't harm any innocents. I made a decision I standby regardless of the mudslinging. You have no info on your personal profile? Are you a parent? Have you ever had to make a decision about your child's future and know that you have a short time to do it in? Do you know that having circumcisions done at a later age is a pretty serious surgery and requires a long time before they can even masturbate let alone have sex or pee without discomfort.


Uncircumcised males also run the risk of tearing the foreskin when they have sex that is a bit too vigorous. Seems something done under local anesthesia with applications of Tylenol for infants to take away any lingering discomfort is a much better alternative than losing what you claim is so precious during sex.

My children were sleeping when they were taken from the room for the procedure, they were sleeping when they came back not even an hour or so later. They never had any major crying that wasn't due to being hungry. So don't tell me I fucked up and mutilated my child and most especially do not tell me how to be a parent.

[rissababynta]

Ya know, it's threads like this, among many others, that seriously make me not want to come here anymore. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with some people here not understanding that there is nothing wrong with having an opinion but you dont' have to be insulting about it.

And I just can not fathom why so many of you feed into the Troll! He does this all the time! He goes back, pulls up a thread that was controversial at one time to stir up shit, and everyone just goes along with it! We could SO easily put an end to that real quick by saying "Oh look, he's at it again" and letting it go, but instead we all choose to sit here, and make the same old comments and points that we made in the past just to keep a thread going that no one wanted to keep going in the first place (which is why it was way back in the archives).

All of this bullshit is just a neverending circle here. It's a shame...a damn shame. :(

[shybipinay]

Ya know, it's threads like this, among many others, that seriously make me not want to come here anymore. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with some people here not understanding that there is nothing wrong with having an opinion but you dont' have to be insulting about it.

And I just can not fathom why so many of you feed into the Troll! He does this all the time! He goes back, pulls up a thread that was controversial at one time to stir up shit, and everyone just goes along with it! We could SO easily put an end to that real quick by saying "Oh look, he's at it again" and letting it go, but instead we all choose to sit here, and make the same old comments and points that we made in the past just to keep a thread going that no one wanted to keep going in the first place (which is why it was way back in the archives).

All of this bullshit is just a neverending circle here. It's a shame...a damn shame. :(

Maybe if we knew who the Troll/s is/are by their handle names. Those should be publically displayed on the home page so we know right off the top. Anytime it's discovered a troll exists, that handle should be put front and centre for all to know. Then we could more easily avoid situations like this.

In any event, you are absolutely correct. Had we known this was a troll effort, we never would have fed into it.

[TwylaTwobits]

The troll would be the ones telling people they fucked up and abused and mutilated and even molested their children for choosing to have circumsized. At least Darkeyes posts intelligent and non rude remarks in her debating replies.

[Orlando098]

I've not read all the threads on this, but IMO people should not circumcise boys unless there is a good medical reason. I watched a video a while back where a woman who is an expert on issues about female genital mutilation said male circumcision was worse than the milder female forms, involving piercing, which are universally condemned in the west (along with the extreme forms which involve removing the whole clitoris or even parts of the labia). It is a fact it removes a lot of sensitive nerve endings and removes the possibility of the pleasurable feeling of the skin sliding over the head of the penis. I am from Europe and Europeans are usually quite surprised to hear that it is very common in the US. I don't really get the "it's cleaner" argument as cleaning under it is incredibly easy to do. I read one theory is that it was popular with some people in the 19th Century because they thought it might discourage boys from masturbating, I'm not sure if that is true or not. Anyway, I personally don't like how cut penises look, but then maybe that's just because, like I said, it's not the usual thing where I'm from. I don't think people who have it done to their children are evil abusers or anything though... I just think that logically if you think about it, it is better not to do it and there is no good reason for it; it is just something that has become a cultural norm in some places and people have it done because they think it must be right because it's usual.

Hi, by the way, this is my first post, and sorry if I picked a thread to comment on that some people sound irritated with. I guess it is a bit tangental to discussion of being bi.

[rissababynta]

Maybe if we knew who the Troll/s is/are by their handle names. Those should be publically displayed on the home page so we know right off the top. Anytime it's discovered a troll exists, that handle should be put front and centre for all to know. Then we could more easily avoid situations like this.

In any event, you are absolutely correct. Had we known this was a troll effort, we never would have fed into it.

Hmmm good point. Usually, when threads like this are brought back from the past for no reason, and the person who brought it back is being an asshole and has all of the same patterns and characteristics as the other trolls, it's a pretty in your face thing, yet obviously not clear to everyone.

[Realist]

Man! I'm surprised at the emotionalism over this thread!

Yes, I wish I'd never been cut.

BUT, I know my parents were trusting of the medical professionals and felt that the doctors would have the best advice about my health. Like Twyla, they did what they felt best for me, based on what they were told.

I assure you that they, nor Twyla, would ever do anything, that they felt would harm their children.

The fact that I wish I had not been circumcised, does not make me want to condemn them for doing what they thought was best.

The name calling and mean-spirited outbursts, that some of you wrote, certainly is not the actions of intelligent and reasonable people.

[darkeyes]

Troll or no is immaterial sometimes when old threads are resuscitated.. often it is a good thing when an old issue is given another hearing.. even if its something with which we feel uncomfortable and causes friction. We live in the real world, and the real world is a bloody site nastier than ever .com will ever be..:)

[darkeyes]

Man! I'm surprised at the emotionalism over this thread!

Yes, I wish I'd never been cut.

BUT, I know my parents were trusting of the medical professionals and felt that the doctors would have the best advice about health.

Like Twyla, they did what they felt best for their child and followed the advice from their physicians. I assure you that they, nor Twyla, did anything that they felt would harm their children.

The fact that I wish I had not been circumcised, does not make me want to condemn them for doing what they thought was best.

The name calling and mean-spirited outbursts, that some of you wrote, certainly is not the actions of intelligent and reasonable people.

I'm not suprised by the emotive posts on this subject Realist.. I seem to remeber a few years ago writing a particularly emotive few myself saying things in a tone I now regret. What you say is right... parents do trust the medical profession, probably too much and it is their advice that they have relied on. European doctors give out quite different advice, as they do in many other countries. I believe a century ago most British boys were circumcised but there was a sea change in opinions in the UK over the following half century or so and now it is relatively rare as I have already said. It is the medical profession in the US who should be taken to task, and society in general.. not individual parents.. debates such as this are needed to keep the issue alive and if only one person changes their mind on a subject as a result of debate, then it is all worth while..:)

[Long Duck Dong]

do me a favour..... when you go on about being mutilated, bear in mind that there are people in the site that you are calling mutilated..... and that is something that can be really fucking insulting...

sure I was circumcised.... but look that the shit that is being posted.... about non cut males are better than me cos I am mutilated and I can not * perform * according to stats and fiqures....

as my partner can tell you, I am larger than average, I can maintain a erection for a few hours.... I have been known to go more than 9 times in one 24 for hour period... but that doesn't matter, all I am seeing is people constantly referring to cut people as mutilated.....

we have a surgical procedure done.... so does that make all people that have had surgery and parts removed * mutilated * too....
are they too some how less than * good enuf * now....

ok circumcision may not be a needed surgical procedure for babies, but in some people that are older, they have no option.... and they are getting labelled as mutilated too..... rather fucking insulting to say that about people that had no fucking chance....

there is a difference between people that * mutilate * their bodies with extreme body modding and cut parts off.... and people like me that are getting insulted cos we have NO FUCKING SAY in it

am I angry with my parents, NO.... were they wrong, NO... did they wreck my life NO... should I blame the doctors yadda yadda NO

what happened, has happened, I am a cut male.... but my partners have been more than satisfied with me, as I am more than a cut cock.. I make love with them using my body and that makes up for any issues with my cut cock

so if you wanna call us mutilated, go for it..... just remember that you are applying the label to any body like cut males, that had a surgical procedure to have parts removed..... and that can include ladies with breast removal and rebuilding surgery.... cos they are like the males that work to rebuild their foreskin

[rissababynta]

That's funny Long Duck you admit that male and female circumcision is mutilation here and describe how your penis has scar tissue from being cut and how you would describe your penis as being mutilated and so would your doctor since you do not have feelings in some areas of it due to being cut.

It's funny that that whole big thing was all one sentence...

[Long Duck Dong]

That's funny Long Duck you admit that male and female circumcision is mutilation here and describe how your penis has scar tissue from being cut and how you would describe your penis as being mutilated and so would your doctor since you do not have feelings in some areas of it due to being cut.

yeah and your point is ???.... you are taking my remarks about how circumcision can be viewed as mutilation, and comparing them to the way I am talking about how being called mutilated can be rather insulting .....there are two different aspects there.....

now where in that post you quoted, did I call myself a mutilated person ?

its a lil like talking about saying you post like a troll, and calling you a troll.... big difference, one is personal and one is not... btw I am not calling you a troll, in case you misread that statement....

ok the doctor that called it mutilation was anti circumcision.... I am not anti circumcision cos I know at times it can be medically needed....

my issue with scarring is a benefit and a curse, sure I have limited feeling, but fucking a partner for 14 hours in one day, is something I think is quite good.... for ANY person, so I do use the scarring to my advantage and yes I can use vit E cream on my penis to make it more sensitive.... but my partner did enjoy sucking a cock that would make a horse cry... and the taste of vit E cream is not as tasty as a mouth full of cum....


now just do me a favour and bear in mind that calling a surgical procedure a mutilation is not the same as saying that people are mutilated and some how not good enuf any more.... cos my partner for one can tell you that I am anything but average for a cut male

[shybipinay]

We can't believe this guy has nothing better to do with his life than be a crusader for uncut cock. What a pathetic waste considering the billions who go hungry every day.

We decided it was time to use the "iggy" button. 3x just over this thread.

[TwylaTwobits]

What I find odd, Iwannna, is that you have no problem pulling up other people's past posts and twisting them to suit your own purposes. Now why don't you tell us your past names so we can look at your former words, ooops sorry can't I believe Drew deletes when he bans. Now please, really you keep coming back and you keep causing crap. Is this how you get your jollies? Don't misunderstand me, I am calling you a troll. You are using same words and phrases as some who have recently been removed from this site. Either change the way you post or grow up, either way. Ignored.

[jem_is_bi]

I see how it is, Twyla is all for male genital mutilation as she let her sons' penises be mutilated for vain aesthetic reasons and conformity that's useless, so now Long Duck is claiming that circumcision is somehow not genital mutilation at all even though his penis is fucked up from a circumcision and he and a medical professional have talked about how it is severly scarred and has nerve damage to it where there is not any feeling at all.

Or perhaps Long Duck is trying to over compensate for his own mutilated penis (described as mutilated in his own words) and start an internet dick sizing contest online on this post like Pasadena did in the thread about Christianity to lots of people who are against hate crimes?

Don't call all types of circumcision mutilation and completely useless in one post long duck and then claim how it's simply not mutilation at all in another since this is hypocritical, does not even make any sense, and it's circular logic.

Then, this must be mutilation logic.
Although it seems to me to be "I am so superior to you rage"

[Long Duck Dong]

I see how it is, Twyla is all for male genital mutilation as she let her sons' penises be mutilated for vain aesthetic reasons and conformity that's useless, so now Long Duck is claiming that circumcision is somehow not genital mutilation at all even though his penis is fucked up from a circumcision and he and a medical professional have talked about how it is severly scarred and has nerve damage to it where there is not any feeling at all.

Or perhaps Long Duck is trying to over compensate for his own mutilated penis (described as mutilated in his own words) and start an internet dick sizing contest online on this post like Pasadena did in the thread about Christianity to lots of people who are against hate crimes?

Don't call all types of circumcision mutilation and completely useless in one post long duck and then claim how it's simply not mutilation at all in another since this is hypocritical, does not even make any sense, and it's circular logic.

can you please hold up a second....

I am not saying that circumcision is not a form of mutilation, I have said that in a lot of aspects it can be....
but I am being clear between a surgical produce that is done with good reason and a surgical produce that results in issues that could have been avoid

you tend to think that anybody circumcised is mutilated.... now I have a 27 year old friend that developed issues with the foreskin tightening excessively, and ended up having the foreskin removed....
so tell me, was he in hospital getting a surgical procedure to enhance his sex life and other aspects or in hospital being mutilated with no real benefits....

as I have also pointed out, there are pros and cons to my circumcision, I am sitting on the fence about it as I have no proof that being uncut is better as I can not compare the differences in my body..... and yeah it would be the same with uncut males, how would they know that they are better off being uncut than cut ......
simple answer is they do not.... they just copy and paste what others say, mutilate the posts into something that is more twisted than a cock with scar tissue.... and totally fail to understand that there is something called the middle ground....
the middle ground is me sitting here saying while in some cases circumcision is not needed, there are also cases where it is needed....
but your stance is a cut man is a mutilated male and that its cruel and unusual treatment of a penis.......
my friend that had to be circumcised at 27.... as a different opinion.... he had a surgical procedure that was medically needed.....
should he have been prevented from having it cos circumcisions should be banned ??????


if you say no, there you are supporting circumcision and penile mutilation... and therefore being a hypocrite

if you say yes, you are forcing a person to suffer cos you think you know whats best for everybody

if you say the middle ground that while you do not agree with circumcisions, that yes they are sometimes medically needed.... you are standing beside me....

thats the advantage to having a open mind...I can stand in the middle ground and look at a issue from multiple sides....
as for a cock sizing contest, you have me beaten hands down...
I may be a dick with a prick, but you are a prick with a dick.... and well, 6 ft pricks will win any day

[darkeyes]

Iwanna hun..there are ways and ways of saying the same thing.. so much I agree with in your posts but not the way they are written. There is so much information that people would study it more if your posts were better considered. Sit down take 5 and think it through. Sometimes I too get carried away and rant. Invariably I regret it and have calmed down a lot in the last year or two. You can have the passion without the flame getting out of control..:)

[bicurcple]

We totally agree with bicurcple but wondering why you're still posting after claiming you won't waste time with these pathetic people.





Thank-you TwylaTwobits

You are correct, I said I would not waste my time with it anymore, but looking at these idiot assholes telling me I was mutilated and telling me I molested my sons by having them circumcised really pissed me off.
The subject is dead to me and I will not be back, but believe me, if I ever meet someone on the street and listen to them tell me I molested my sons.............I will be spending time in the local jail for assault.

[tenni]

"Doctors and nurses do frequently tell lies about circumcision to the parents such as "Oh he slept through the entire thing!" or "He didn't cry at all!" which is all total bullshit since infants are strapped down and even with anesthesia they do feel lots of pain since a very sensitive part of their penis is being cut off. They actually do pass out from the pain or stay awake and fully conscious and then go into shock from it. "

This section of Iwanna's post may need further clarification. As I understand it that the baby is strapped down because he is a baby and they use a local anesthesia. Babies may move a lot whether they are being operated on under a local or just lying there. Even though he may feel no pain, he may feel the touch of the instruments near the edge of the freezing boundary. I refer to any dental work being done while under a local anesthesia as a reference.

If a baby were to pass out from the pain, then would the anesthesia not have taken effect yet or some other anesthesia problem? If it is an anesthesia problem, what might be done to determine that the anesthesia has taken effect? Again, in an adult, you simply ask them if they can feel anything but not with a newborn. I would expect a doctor or nurse would do something to test if the anesthesia has taken effect. The bottom line though is how does Iwanna know that this crying and passing out from shock has happened? Is Iwanna a doctor who has performed circumcision or a nurse who has actually witnessed these operations? If not, what credibility does Iwanna have to make such statements as fact rather than opinion or even hearsay?

[CuddlyKate]

I don't wish to pour oil on already inflamed waters, but several years ago Channel 4 televised a documentary on male child circumcision in the US. The babies were plainly awake and strapped down on something resembling a metal food dish such as the military or schools may use in food halls, contoured to a baby shape. This may not be the case in all American hospitals, but it is certainly the case in some.

[MarieDelta]

And lest we forget the story of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)



David Reimer was born as a male identical twin in Winnipeg, Manitoba. His birth name was Bruce; his twin brother was named Brian. At the age of 6 months, after concern was raised about how both twins urinated, both boys were diagnosed with phimosis. They were referred for circumcision at the age of 8 months. On April 27, 1966, a Urologist performed the operation using the unconventional method of cauterization. The procedure did not go as doctors had planned, and David Reimer's penis was burned beyond surgical repair.[1]

BTW: His brothers urinary issues resolved themselves on their own.

Accidents do happen.

[tenni]

"We also have a neato word that disguises the nastiness of what we do - circumcision ( round cut); rather than the descriptive "mutilating an innocent baby's penis".

The decision as to whether to refer to this operation as a "circumcision" or "mutilation" is done for a personal and political reason. Many operations may be said to leave the body "mutilated". Posters here are chosing to use this word, "mutilated" for shock impact. That is all.

They wish to stop circumcision it appears. If you are realistic, you will know that will not happen in North America any day soon. It may evolve that the operation will be done fewer and fewer times. Circumcision in North America is a cultural act: plain and simple. It may be true that it reduces the sensitivity in the penis. For some young men, they may be happy about that but not even know that is why they suffer less frequently from pre mature ejaculation..:bigrin:. Unless they lose all sensitivity they will still have a pleasant orgasm. So what is the big deal?

[rissababynta]

"Doctors and nurses do frequently tell lies about circumcision to the parents such as "Oh he slept through the entire thing!" or "He didn't cry at all!" which is all total bullshit since infants are strapped down and even with anesthesia they do feel lots of pain since a very sensitive part of their penis is being cut off. They actually do pass out from the pain or stay awake and fully conscious and then go into shock from it. "

This section of Iwanna's post may need further clarification. As I understand it that the baby is strapped down because he is a baby and they use a local anesthesia. Babies may move a lot whether they are being operated on under a local or just lying there. Even though he may feel no pain, he may feel the touch of the instruments near the edge of the freezing boundary. I refer to any dental work being done while under a local anesthesia as a reference.

If a baby were to pass out from the pain, then would the anesthesia not have taken effect yet or some other anesthesia problem? If it is an anesthesia problem, what might be done to determine that the anesthesia has taken effect? Again, in an adult, you simply ask them if they can feel anything but not with a newborn. I would expect a doctor or nurse would do something to test if the anesthesia has taken effect. The bottom line though is how does Iwanna know that this crying and passing out from shock has happened? Is Iwanna a doctor who has performed circumcision or a nurse who has actually witnessed these operations? If not, what credibility does Iwanna have to make such statements as fact rather than opinion or even hearsay?

It's because Iwanna is full of crap tenni. In a lot of cases a parent can be present when it is happening if they ask and they have a good doctor. A friend of mine and myself stood in for our sons, and with her son, he was awake the whole time, never passed out or flinched from any pain...and with my son he was asleep when they brought us to the room, they did what they had to do without him flinching or acting as though he was being touched, and he was still asleep until we got to the room when I woke him up for a bottle. It's funny that he can sit there and bitch about how nurses and doctors lie about this when parents themselves can see it :rolleyes: He's just another troll dear, please take anything he has to say with a grain of salt...

[tenni]

Do you have any credentials to give yourself credibility or is this hearsay?
I had understood that newborns were not given anesthesia but someone else has posted that they believe that local anesthesia is used?


tenni
there is no anesthesia. Anesthesia is avoided because of potentially further seriously harming the child.
How would you know the difference between a baby crying in fear lapsing into shock as opposed to a regular persistent newborn cry. You wouldn't.
Doctors routinely lie about pain and anesthesia.
The baby does sometimes pass out from the pain.
Every study ever attempted at evaluating pain of newborn circumcision or evaluating a baby's reaction to pain (using circumcision) has been abandoned before completion. This is because each study exceeded moral boundaries of scientific medicine (no Josef Mengele type experimentation).
Typical metrics for these studies involve heart rate, frequency of cries, and shallowness of breath (among other criteria).

[TwylaTwobits]

http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm

Pros and cons as listed by actual medical people, you know the ones with licenses that went to school to help humanity have a better life.

[tenni]

Thanks Rissa for your in person observations. That is proof. Do you know if they used a local anesthesia? (not that it will change me personally because I don't believe that I was anesthestised).

A funny side note is that my mother was a great horder of bills. We found the bill for my circumcision as we were cleaning up her house. By today's standards, it was cheap. I think that I might still have that bill hanging around somewhere. So, in one respect, I still have a memento of my circumcision of my former foreskin. :bigrin:

[rissababynta]

Thanks Rissa for your in person observations. That is proof. Do you know if they used a local anesthesia? (not that it will change me personally because I don't believe that I was anesthestised).

A funny side note is that my mother was a great horder of bills. We found the bill for my circumcision as we were cleaning up her house. By today's standards, it was cheap. I think that I might still have that bill hanging around somewhere. So, in one respect, I still have a memento of my circumcision. :bigrin:

They used a little numbing ointment and then I believe they injected a small amount of anesthesia into the foreskin if I remember correctly. I was more focused on my sons face than anything else so I didn't watch step by step what they did with the whole numbing department. He told me what he was doing too, but I wasn't focused on him lol. In some cases, they use a sugar water solution on the baby. It's bizarre, but because their pain receptors aren't properly developed as an infant, the solution almost mimicks the effects of a narcotic for a few minutes. I thought that was interesting when I first learned that years ago...I wonder if today they use it more often.

They used to not do this because doctors a long time ago believed that babies brains weren't developed enough to be able to feel pain, so they felt it was unnecessary, but now the majority of doctors in the world would never dream about doing any kind of procedure on an adult or child without some form of anesthesia.

I would also like to add for all of the people going off about how the baby is in OBVIOUS pain because they are crying and screaming...umm...yeah. Ya know how that happens? The second they are strapped onto the table, they start carrying on, because babies generally like being swaddled and held tightly like in the womb. The second you have them in that position with their arms and legs strapped out of the way...they get annoyed by it. Some babies don't care, like my son who preferred not to be swaddled right after he popped out of me haha. But the ones who do, tend to be the ones who get annoyed the second they are strapped onto the table.

[tenni]

Thanks Rissa
Everything that you wrote makes sense to me. I had heard about the question about how well developed the neurological system is in newborns. Sugar as a drug...lol I was feed commercial baby food that had sugar in it. The argument was so that the parent who might taste it would think that it was good. Now you tell me that I was being drugged....lol I always thought that is how I developed a sweet tooth.

[tenni]

"these people are referred to in psychological fields as cowards."

LOL...get fuck'n real. "Coward" is not a term used in psychological journals as a descriptor for any condition or theory that I have read.....

[rissababynta]

I'm sorry to challenge you again, Rissa
But exactly how can the nervous system of a newborn feel hunger from the stomach, feel 'wet' and 'poopy' to cry when so, feel tickling of the toes and spanking at birth to start breathing, and yet have the nervous system shut off during the mutilation?

In adults, we call this shock, where you don't feel any pain, at the moment.

"Only blind are those who will not see"

Then I guess it's pointless for anyone to ever get anesthesia since apparently, according to you, there is no way for anyone to not feel pain.

[rissababynta]

Thanks Rissa
Everything that you wrote makes sense to me. I had heard about the question about how well developed the neurological system is in newborns. Sugar as a drug...lol I was feed commercial baby food that had sugar in it. The argument was so that the parent who might taste it would think that it was good. Now you tell me that I was being drugged....lol I always thought that is how I developed a sweet tooth.

LMFAO well, it mainly only works in babies 3 months and under...and that's a bit too young for babyfood...so I wouldn't go thinking that you were drugged just yet haha.

[tenni]

*puts away the "victim card".:cool:
Searches through desk for another explanation for my sweet tooth:bigrin:


LMFAO well, it mainly only works in babies 3 months and under...and that's a bit too young for babyfood...so I wouldn't go thinking that you were drugged just yet haha.

[shybipinay]

*puts away the "victim card".:cool:
Searches through desk for another explanation for my sweet tooth:bigrin:

I wouldn't put that card away just yet. There are those that believe refined sugar is a drug. Or at least a form of one. Like caffiene is also considered a drug. Refined sugar can be highly addictive and could certainly explain the high incidence of diabetes as we get older. Although studies are now claiming that aspects of Hep B vaccinations may also be large factors in creating diabetes in older people.

It makes sense from a corporate point of view to somehow keep us addicted to certain foods and adding refined sugar is one way to ensure we will keep stufffing ourselves. Bottom line = profit margin not our good health and well being. Now, that's what we should be debating, not whether circumcision is necessary or a mutilating evil.

[shybipinay]

Thanks Rissa for your in person observations. That is proof. Do you know if they used a local anesthesia? (not that it will change me personally because I don't believe that I was anesthestised).

A funny side note is that my mother was a great horder of bills. We found the bill for my circumcision as we were cleaning up her house. By today's standards, it was cheap. I think that I might still have that bill hanging around somewhere. So, in one respect, I still have a memento of my circumcision of my former foreskin. :bigrin:

We also have our son's receipt. $199.00, which is a couple hundred lower than it was a few years earlier with the same doctor.

Once again FYI:

http://www.pollockclinics.com/circumcision/circumcision-before.html


This clearly details the step by step process including pain killers and anesthesia. We were present and witnessed the entire procedure, in fact, the Doctor makes quite a point of thoroughly describing the step by step and walking all the parents through the process. He does the operation in groups. I think 5 per group.

Note, this process (web link) is not the most common procedure. Most of you are probably familiar with the "Plasti-bell" procedure which is not as safe, or pain free as the mogen-clamp method.

As for parents not being able to interpret a baby's cry and what it means - get fucking real!!! The person who said this obviously is not a parent. I could go on, but I have other more important things in life than to argue with blind idiots who can only call others blind. There's nothing worse than someone forcing their agenda on another because they believe they are so almighty and righteous.

[rissababynta]

Wow, groups of 5 or so. God! That sounds so much like doctors of the 1930s and 1940s lobotomizing so many patients at a time! And they were so flamboyantly doing the world a favor... remember?


Sorry Shybipinay, you bypassed the main issue with *yawn* so predictably... so old and worn out and worthless argument...

Shybipinay, do something invigorating... challenging... new...
Grab your wife, tie her to a board, slip her some date rape drug so there is no pain remembered, and give her a good old fashioned female circumcision!
Then let's hear her sing the joyous chords of harmony to mutilation!
Circumcision for men!
Circumcision for women!
All are equal and good (as by all moral standards)
Yea!

I suspect that even though her pain cannot be an issue, suddenly the pro mutilation folks will spaz and overreact... kind of like the
DO NO HARM, anti mutilation, anti molestation folks sound.
Wow.
Shocking.
Like I said. Do something new. Or say something (anything) that has validity.
You could be honest and say "I was wrong". THAT WOULD BE SHOCKING AND NEW FROM A PRO MUTILATION PERSON.
But honesty is not allowed in neurotic denial. Carry on the twisted path!
You had to be right!
You couldn't be wrong!
If one argument for neurotic denial fails - RUN TO ANOTHER!
Jesus f****** Christ...
People are so...
unable to rise above the very bottom...
bottom feeders...
LOL Adolph Hitler made several observations about you people...
...and by working you people... put him at the top... for a while.
Yet you have no self recognition, no self examination.

Damn...where are the lobotomy doctors when you need them :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Damn...where are the lobotomy doctors when you need them :bigrin:

Tee hee.. u r awful sumtimes u r!!!:tong:

[MarieDelta]

http://badsweaterguy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c33b69e2010536028827970b-800wi



Then, when every last cent of their money was spent,
The Fix-It-Up Chappie packed up. And he went.
And he laughed as he drove In his car up the beach,
“They never will learn. No. You can’t Teach a Sneetch!”


:tongue::rolleyes:

.............

[snakkie]

just to say, that i'm circumcised and also have problems with lack of sensibility.
i notice that since me and my friends started masturbating and i could see that i needed a lot more time to cum.
Now that i have had some sex experiences, i can confirm that, it takes a lot of time to cum and it's frustrating sometimes.
It's also nearly impossible to me to cum by oral sex.

[shybipinay]

Damn...where are the lobotomy doctors when you need them :bigrin:

Touche!!! However, please do not repost the quote as we have this troll on our iggy list and quoting him then allows us to see his posts. It's obvious from this person's drivel that it's not worth reading, quoting or re-posting thru the quote process whatever he thinks is important to say.

Howcome we're not hearing from the other 2 personae of this troll?

[bicurcple]

Your anger is reasonable.
Neurotic denial is a common human condition.

However:
1. Mutilation is destruction of healthy tissue.

2. If you break a window, you have broken a window.
If you burn a board, you have burned a board.

3. If you of your free will cause an innocent infant to be tied to a holding board, then cause someone to proceed to rip, tear, cut away a large fraction of the most sensitive skin of the penis. Causing the child to typically experience only 1/2 the feeling he otherwise might have felt throughout his adult sex life while the child screams in pain and fear... then that is what you have done.

It is true that 1/5000 men (lifetime, not per year) do acquire a mucus membrane virus and live long term with such abysmal hygiene that they do, decades later acquire penile cancer.

It is also true that 100% of the men subjected to this (popular, legal) mutilation lose an absolute theoretical minimum 1/4, typically 1/2, and often more (than 1/2) of the feeling they otherwise would have had in their penis. And these figures fail to take into account the destruction of dynamic feeling due to destruction/limitation of the blood supply.

It's also true that doctors/interns/hospitals make money from the removal and subsequent sale of the foreskin. Just another money making tactic like the 'extended warranty' pushed at many stores.

If you jump any male on the street and do this to him, it is defined as rape/molestation/assault. Yet in certain societies, if you do it to your own child you are legally exempt.
But it doesn't change the truth of what you did.
The destruction/mutilation was not an 'improvement'. They certainly added nothing. They removed nothing diseased.

Yes, sometimes there are rare severe problems with the foreskin later in life; usually dealt with easily with non surgical methods. But of course in the USA where the knife is king, virtually any problem with the foreskin has one keen answer.

We also have a neato word that disguises the nastiness of what we do - circumcision ( round cut); rather than the descriptive "mutilating an innocent baby's penis".

If your pet is old, suffering, and you take it to the vet we avoid the correct descriptive "I'm taking my pet to be killed" by disguising the act, "put it down" or "put it to sleep". LOL, of course you're not putting your pet down, it's not just going to sleep, you have chosen to kill it.

In a matter as important as doing the terrible deed to a baby, should we hide behind neurotic denial and euphemisms? Or is it possible we can be honest.

And gang, there is no medical indication for routine/mass circumcision. I've read every one of the above excuses, all are false, they've all been tried before for many decades. All are false. Your feelings are/were valid, but to harm a baby for your feelings... is something... every adult must morally use every bit of knowledge/wisdom/thought to avoid harming innocents. This is a nothing more than a social custom that should have died 100 years ago.

you are one messed up individual. did your parents beat you?

[darkeyes]

Isnt it astonishing what some consider a messed up human being? Most of us are I suppose.. some much less than others would like to make out...:)

[mikey3000]

Plus,
"studies" just like the AIDS/circumcision "studies"
have correlated
rape and circumcision. The logic being that leftover anger, mimicking violence of the circumcision, unfelt/unexpressed physical sexual feelings lead to a clearly higher percentage of men raping women, and more forceful sex to compensate for what they 'should' be feeling.


LOL!!! Are you for fucking real? That is a joke, right? This entire thread is really pathetic! And I've never seen such pathetic bullshit in my life. The fear mongering and imagined mutiulation and loss of sensation is a joke.

The best judge here regarding sensation loss are males wo have had the procedure done later in life Why youldn't anyone check with them first and see how "mutilated" they feel

http://www.circinfo.net/men_circumcised_as_adults_tell_it_as_it_is.html

I am shocked at how pathetice some people can be.

[darkeyes]

Failure to conform to the social custom/mentality of sexually mutilating babies... makes me one messed up individual?

Wow.

Perhaps my parents should have beaten me until I learned how to conform to even the most disgusting and immoral tenants of my social group.

Given that definition of 'messed up' ...
I choose 'messed up'.

I would have made a bad NAZI. You (and some of the other pro mutilation folks) might have lived (certainly will do anything to conform), but I would have been sent to a work camp and quickly died.

Sweetheart.. am in agreement with so much ya say.. even down 2 the mutilation bit.. howeva.. yav gone much 2 far 'ere an me dus draw the line...millions upon millions a peeps died in the death camps who wer circumcised.. an millions upon millions more who wer circumcised died fightin the nazis.. so try an chill a tadge willya, an think things through a lil more fore ya say owt.. :)

[mikey3000]

Yeah, it's pro circumcision to show that plenty of men are very satisfied with their cut penises.

The only radicals are those of you trying to condemn parents for "mutilating" their baby boys. I don't feel mutilated in the slightest. I'm very happy with what I got, and so are many other cut men (and our women like it too).

And ONTHESIDE, I highly doubt you're anything close to a mathematician. You obviously have a personal agenda of your own to push. You take pleasure in trying to make others feel inferior to you, and dude, it ain't gonna work. Maybe you're a lazy lover who sucks in bed and you're looking for something to blame it on? Who knows. But you really don't have any creditability at all, so I'm not too concerned with you think of me. :bigrin:

Have a nice day.
Happily cut Mikey.

[darkeyes]

Yeah, it's pro circumcision to show that plenty of men are very satisfied with their cut penises.

The only radicals are those of you trying to condemn parents for "mutilating" their baby boys. I don't feel mutilated in the slightest. I'm very happy with what I got, and so are many other cut men (and our women like it too).

And ONTHESIDE, I highly doubt you're anything close to a mathematician. You obviously have a personal agenda of your own to push. You take pleasure in trying to make others feel inferior to you, and dude, it ain't gonna work. Maybe you're a lazy lover who sucks in bed and you're looking for something to blame it on? Who knows. But you really don't have any creditability at all, so I'm not too concerned with you think of me. :bigrin:

Have a nice day.
Happily cut Mikey.Have no doubt u dont feel mutilated or deprived Mikey..u dont know any different.. being circumcised is all u can remember.. I am not saying that there arent millions who feel as u do.. yet there are at least as many millions around the world who are quite glad they have never been cut and that they retain their foreskin. There are also more millions who remember having a foreskin and have lost it in adulthood who can testify to how they feel about its loss.. I cant tell u that for a man sex is better with or without their foreskin.. I can tell you that I always found sex with an uncircumcised guy much more satisfying than with one who had been circumcised.. other women no doubt can say quite the opposite..

No one is trying to stop those who wish for circumcision to be done.. all we are saying is that it should only be done in childhood for good pressing and sound medical reasons where a parental decision is required.. otherwise it is up to the child..at a stage when he is able to make an informed decision.. to make that decision for himself..

.. and on the side may have no credibility with you because oif how you feel.. but he does have a great deal when you look at thee millions in the US who regret their circumcision, and the hundreds of millions in the US and other countries who have not been and never will be circumcised.

It is a matter of personal taste and personal choice.. the latter is the one which truly counts..choice... something an infant can never make, and once done, cannot be undone...

[TwylaTwobits]

Sighs....... there is no end to this argument. It's a personal choice and up to the parents. I respect what Fran is saying, but the personal attacks and definable inflamable way of saying people who have been circumcised are mutilated and that parents who have circumcised their sons are abusers and molesters is over the top.

There may be plenty of men in the world who regret the fact they were circumcised, but as was pointed out, the parents felt they were doing the best they could for their children. On the advice of pediatricians, the ones who were trained to care for our children. I was given the pros and cons and I chose. I am not sitting here saying it was right for you, I'm saying that I made the choice for my children. And I have also stated that when they are ready to ask me, I'll explain why.

[CuddlyKate]

I am a mother to two young daughters, and like Frances neither like or approve of circumcision for much the same reasons as she. I am not quite so dogmatic as she however, and can understand why parents in accordance with the advice of the medical profession had their children circumcised.

It is heartwarming to see that the numbers of infant circumcisions in the USA for some years have been dropping and I hope that this trend continues. Those of you who have gone over the top about this do your cause a disservice by getting the backs up of parents of circumcised children and men who have been circumcised themselves make it so much more difficult to reach your goal. There has been from some quarters an unpleasant underlying tone which both spoils the discussion and ensures an entrenchment of position.

It is both stupid and counter productive to rant and rave about this or any matter when considered debate is much better suited to achieving an objective. To offend those you need to recruit in support of your cause creates obstacles which become much more difficult to overcome. Whether you like it or not you do need those people on your side if you are to win the argument. You will not convince anyone by being melodramatic, hysterical and offensive.

I suggest those of you who have become so hot under the collar take the weekend at least to cool off.

[mikey3000]

As parents it is our job to protect our children against disease. And the latest research does indicate that, overwhelmingly, circumcision does protect against disease.

So should I not immunize my children? Immunisation can be risky too .

[shybipinay]

Let's see if we have this right...........

havemycockneatitoo

InTheNameOfLove

IwannaFUCKALLNIGHT

Ontheside

...........are all ramming this "mutilation" thing down some of our throats. Do we see a pattern here? Could these 4 handles all belong to the same person? There are certainly alot of factors that point to that possibility not the least of which is the similar style of all his handles. Isn't that original and creative? If it's true, this person is nothing but a Troll and needs to be ignored. It's about time Drew investigated this and put this matter to rest once and for all. None of us need to be lambasted in this public forum as this zeolot is doing

Cuddlykate sums it all up rather well and should be complimented for her statements.

Don't play to this Troll. Do not reply to his incredulous claims. Do not quote his statements so that those of us who already have him on ignore don't see his comments posted as a quote in your reply. It astonishes us that he has so much time on his hands that he can write so many long winded posts that only gives cuddlykate's comments more credibility.

[Long Duck Dong]

the basis of a forum is discussion, yes....

but discussion, not personal attacks or abuse....

like a number of guys here in the site, I am a cut male... but you do not hear me assuming that I am better than a cut male or that I am some how * not good enuf * because I am cut.....
nor may I implying that parents are abusive and cruel for having their kids circumcised.....

there is ways to express feelings like that without the BS in some of the posts

now without the use of copy and paste of stats and fiqures, I generally post from personal experience and what my friends tell me, and that is vastly different to what stats and fiqures say.

I have 7 uncut friends, one has a recurring foreskin infection issue that is not due to unclearliness and prevents them having sex much,
3 of them are fine, 2 have had later life foreskin removal due to foreskin tightening
and 2 are debating the late life cut as one is finding that a lot of ladies talk about enjoying sucking a cut cock more than a uncut cock and the other I am not really sure what his issue with

I have a number of cut friends...
about 4 of them had issues growing up with dry skin around the upper shaft of the penis and skin tearing leading to mild scarring and lack of feeling
like me they are larger than average....
a few of them, like me, talk about extra sensitive feeling on the head when we come and a uncomfortable feeling after we cum, in a mouth or a lady, with some forms of contact
most of us notice that the ladies tend to talk about a cleaner look and easier to see any signs of STI's

dammit near all of us notice that the debate between people about cut and uncut, is done by males, that males are the more aggressive and verbal about it, and in almost all of the cases, they quote facts and figures...
I know of a handful of men that can actually talk from the point of view of being cut and uncut in later life and have the knowledge and experience to offering a opinion from both sides......

strangely enuf, there appears to be no difference, it is depending on the male and their cock and each cock is different....some are more sensitive, some are not, for some being cut helps, for others uncut is better.....

now the stats and fiqures, yes the info about the cock and the damage that can be done is right, you are cutting away a part of the penis and yes it can damage a part of the penis...again for some males, there is no choice, they have to have it done later in life anyway....
but the feeling and sensitivity part is done by a survey, measure of impulses around the cock when stimulated ( wired up to a machine ) and study of reaction to stimuli to lube, rubbing etc....
now thats like taking 100 people and slamming their fingers in a door and asking if it hurts and measuring by how much from how loud they scream....
each person is different so the reaction is different for each person
its too hard to be 100% sure of a dead accurate result on sensitivity, you can only measure a persons reaction to the pain and how they percieve it

as for good and bad parents that may have their kids cut.....
its personal opinion, your opinion doesn't make a parent bad, a bad parent makes your opinion correct.....

if circumcision is cruel and unusual, you could join the greenies in new zealand that want things like cross country running banned in schools as its a form of child abuse, they want climbing structures banned as they are a danger to kids, they want games like tag banned as its a form of subtle bullying
they have got child smacking banned ( child abuse ), under the nz privacy laws they have the right to refuse you the parent the right to check their school reports, the list goes on

then they tried the if your kid fucks up, the parent should go to jail if the kid is too young, and that the parent is guilty of child abuse if their kid is obese ( never mind the fact the greenies are trying to stop kids exercising )

thats the mentality of the opposition to circumcision and the ridicule of parents that have had their kids circumcised....

btw I have parents too, they got me circumcised so judging parents, is also judging my parents and I find that a lil rude.....

right now that I have had my coffee go cold.... I will finish

one ) I am not pro or anti circumcision, I am solidly aware that later life circumcisions had to be done.... but I am not able to take one side or the other as I do not have the experience of being cut and uncut long enuf in life to make a informed choice..... like most of the anti circumcision males in the site who think they are the voice of knowledge

two ) I am not going to judge parents that made a decision... they did it with doctors under medical guidelines, if it went bad under the doctors hands, that is not the parents, its the doctors.... what I would regard as child abuse is the parents doing it at home with a scalpel and a handbook
there are no perfect parents, just those amongst us that believe that we can do a better job of rising other peoples kids....

three ) yes this one is personal and aimed at a number of people.... I have noticed time and time again, that you can talk with and to the ladies, and have a discussion.... but god help you if you try and talk to some of the males in this site, they will resort to abuse and name calling, creating multis, running people down and being general assholes.....
now I know that circumcision is done to a penis but there are times I really think the head was removed from the wrong dick

[shybipinay]

Thank-you LDD. That was very well written.

[Karasel]

I've read all about the circumcision of male genitalia in this thread. And all I have to say, is at least they didn't have to go through the genital mutilation/circumcision/castration that some women in Egypt and other places have to go through.

Here's a link to explain what I'm talking about, if you are in the dark about this:
http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/first/badawi.html

And more on topic, I myself can't tell if a man in circumcised or not if I was blind folded and fucked a random guy. I have no preference either way... But if I was a guy, I wouldn't want to be circumcised. Evolution put it there for a reason, and I aim to keep it.

[MarieDelta]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christiane-northrup/we-need-to-stop-circumcis_b_470689.html

[shybipinay]

I have been with men who are circumcised and men who have a foreskin.

I prefer a man with a foreskin as during sex, it feels better and more natural and lube does not have to be used and it does not feel like a battering ram like a cut penis does.

A penis that has a foreskin is soft and velvety while a penis that is cut feels dry and even painful if we do not use lots of lube. There's no mobility or gliding action with a cut penis like there is from a penis with a foreskin.

I've known it both ways and I know that the pain I have felt from a penis that's cut is not my fault as I am not dry, too tight, or frigid as sex feels normal and is fun when I have sex with a man with a foreskin.

When I have given cut men oral sex it does not feel clean and the idea that a cut penis is somehow 'clean' while one that still has a foreskin is 'dirty' is ludicrious.

While giving oral sex to a man that is cut he does not have a foreskin that is wonderful to lick and gently nibble and a penis with a foreskin tastes better than a circumcised penis.

As far as circumcision of infants goes this is genital mutilation.

The fact that anybody would consider cutting up a baby boy's penis is disgusting.

No parent in this day of access to information can claim that they never heard that circumcision is unnecessary, has no benefits at all, and is barbaric. If I were a boy today and my parents cut me, I would disown them as soon as I found out what they had done to me.

I am from a country where men who are circumcised are in the minority and they are usually American men and there is really no point in circumcision at all since people can wash their genitals and you do not get diseases from having sex with a man who has a penis the way nature intended it that is not cut.

I have been with men who are cut who had gross smelling cocks and thought that because they were cut they did not have to wash like everyone else does.

Smegma only builds up if a man does not shower for weeks. It's not dirty, it's just dead cells, they're not bad since they kill bacteria. A vagina has more smegma build up than any guy.

A foreskin is more natural, manly, and erotic. There's more for the lips and fingers to play with and it feels wonderful inside me.

There are quite a few risks/defects involved with circumcision. I say don't mess with the cock if it's not broken!

As far as what some Americans and Canadians on this site are saying if it’s such a wonderful surgery, then let the kid grow up and do it himself. Not one man in ten would subject himself to the surgery. I know about female circumcision and I would never subject myself to that mutilation.

The arrogance of making that decision for someone else is astounding. Skin that has to be pried loose from an infant’s penis in order for it to be cut off, wasn’t meant to be cut off in the first place.

Cut looks better? says who? They look the same when erect, except an intact penis doesn't have a scar, isn't discolored, chaffed, and dried up. You like the cut flaccid look better, huh? personally, I find it to look too exposed, it's like an ugly mutilated monster.

If I have a son with my boyfriend we will not mutilate his penis since my BF has a foreskin and circumcision is not really done in my country. In my country men who are cut get made fun of and probably feel weird that they are in the minority.

If I have a son no doctor or surgeon is going to hurt him or mutilate his penis.

I do not even know of any doctors or surgeons in my country who would even perform a genital mutilation on a baby boy.

I do not know any man who has ever had to have a circumcision later in life since he somehow had problems with his foreskin.

There's nothing wrong with having a foreskin.

Stop making excuses to mutilate your son. Don’t violate his human rights. You should be protecting him, not allowing some one with a knife to cut his penis!




More shock talk and BS when this is a personal choice. We never use lubes and have no problems in that regard. Your cleanliness talk is more personal opinion and from our experience pure BS.

Drop Fucking dead!!!! You too are forcing your views down other people's throats. You're welcome to your opinions but not at our expense. We have a right to our opinions no matter how misguided you think they are. Yours appear just as misguided and misinformed.

[rissababynta]

Are we all supposed to have the same opinion on topics? How boring would that be!

The original poster asked our opinions about circumcision and I'm giving mine and I have every right to do so. Get over it and stop your bitching. I'm not giving links or information about my doctors who are against circumcision both male and female like you are doing with your doctor who is for genital mutilation based on his religion and because he wants to make money and pretend that he cares when if he really did care he would not preform male genital mutilations. It's possible to be Jewish and against male circumcision and not all Jews circumcise or mutilate their infant boys.

:rolleyes: You have written about how you have never even been with a man that's intact with a foreskin so you are doing nothing but posting lies about how a penis that is cut is somehow 'clean' while in your opinion a penis with a foreskin is not which is pure BS.

Men who are cut can have nasty and dirty cocks too if they don't wash them.

Maybe you yourself do not dry up from your cut husband but when I had sex with cut men I did dry up frequently and we needed lube. This does not happen at all when I have sex with a man with a foreskin.

Try actually having sex with a man that's intact with a foreskin before you claim what I experienced and wrote about is BS. Of course you may not need lube since your husband's penis is small and circumcision does reduce the length and circumference of a penis. ;) Thankfully my BF has a penis with a foreskin and he's 22cm and thick.


Just because a man is intact with a foreskin that does not mean that he or his penis are somehow 'dirty'. There are such things as taking a bath, showering, and washing with soap and water like you are supposed to if you do not want to smell or be dirty.

I never said that I rejected my male lovers who are cut. I just thought that they were missing a major part of their penis that they would have loved to have and it would have given they and their partners lots of sexual pleasure if they had been allowed to stay intact with a foreskin instead of having part of their penis ripped off when they were born all for pointless reasons. I mainly felt sorry that they were not intact and instead were subjected to pointless male genital mutilation.

I said how I think that circumcision should stop on infant boys since they do not have a choice in the matter, they do not consent to it, and again there is no reason at all for anyone a man or a woman to be circumcised or have parts of their genitals that a doctor or a religion thinks are pointless or that simply must be sliced off, torn off, and mutilated as soon as they are born.

I also wrote about how in my country and in my culture male circumcision is not done at all and you do not see lots of men in Europe who have problems with their foreskin or who got HIV and other STDs just because they have a foreskin and not because they had unprotected sex with someone who has HIV or an STD. If being cut somehow did prevent HIV and STDs why do so many circumcised Americans and even Canadians have HIV and STDs in high numbers?

You all know who this is right? lol. Super iggy!

[darkeyes]

More shock talk and BS when this is a personal choice. We never use lubes and have no problems in that regard. Your cleanliness talk is more personal opinion and from our experience pure BS.

Drop Fucking dead!!!! You too are forcing your views down other people's throats. You're welcome to your opinions but not at our expense. We have a right to our opinions no matter how misguided you think they are. Yours appear just as misguided and misinformed.

..and what are you talking about doing to a helpless infant?? Words are less forceful than a scalpel.... and they can be forgotten... which is more than a circumcised child can ever do about his little op......

.. and telling people to "drop fucking dead" is sure to win you your argument...

[Long Duck Dong]

So you don't believe in facts with proof and data to back these facts up, you don't believe in science, medicine, or logic, and only believe in things that a very small number of your personal friends have said or claim in theory?

Gee, that's not surprising and it's not credible or something someone who is really educated would believe in or do, but what else should we expect from a real quack like you?

no I actually believe what people themselves tell me

the simple truth is I went and found out what made up a lot of the * facts * and the data behind it and how it was collected....

so tell me, einstein, is every dick identical in sensation and feeling that it can be accurately recorded ????
you can believe the data sheets that rely on what people say they are feeling.... and I will rely on what people say they are feeling....
one of us is hearing it from the horses mouth, one of us is believing that if its on the web, it most be the truth.....


the same applies to circumcision, the medical facts such as numbers done, to how many and how many went right and how many went wrong... are based around the medical records..... yeah i would accept that to be as accurate as the medical logs are

but I also understand that your dick and my dick are different, and the way you stroke your dick and the way I stroke my dick are different, and that the sensations and feelings that we will have are different......
is that a clear indication of cut vs uncut sensation loss ????
according to you it must be.....
according to me its like testing the air in 30 different countries and saying its all breathable and fine, but having people in some countries telling me the smog is so bad they have severe lung issues

so yes I am a quack... I must be... I actually learnt about the collection of the data cos I was curious as to why there are 9 different sets of data for the exact same thing
9 sets ???????? that would not be possible.... unless the data is inaccurate and flawed..... cos if the data is accurate, there would be one set....

so its back to the issue again, you can believe stuff thats copied and pasted from the web and supports your opinion.... I will believe the people I talk to about their own personal experiences...

[mikey3000]

My personal experience is that I'm happy the way I am, and it's not cause I don't know any better (as some would imply it was). Neither do I ridiclue others for not being cut. Just let them be and accept them.

[darkeyes]

Innit fascinatin? Most lads in the US r cut... medical experts say..brill.. as it shud b..do it.. mosta the rest a the western world lads r uncut usually.. med experts say..brill..is as it shud b...

..1 lot makes lotsa dosh, the otha nun woteva.. wich is rite?? Well ya knos wot me thinks... an who is piggie in middle? Poor lil lads who hav no say in owt woteva an r unable 2 change a thing...cept a course the lil mites who r still able wen they r old enuff 2 make that decision for themsels..

..ahh innit brill 2 decide wot happens 2 our bodies? An innit shitty wen we allowed no say woteva?????:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

My personal experience is that I'm happy the way I am, and it's not cause I don't know any better (as some would imply it was). Neither do I ridiclue others for not being cut. Just let them be and accept them.
aaah but it is hun..it is..an ya jus cant c it..how sad...:(

[mikey3000]

Why do you have to insist how to tell others how we must feel? Stop it Fran!!! Till you grow a cock, you have no right to tell others how we must feel.

[rissababynta]

Fran, I wanted to say this last night, but I wanted to sleep on it. You are being patronizing. It's insulting. Cut it out.

I'm perfectly capable of deciding whether I am happy or not being circumcised. And I am. Obviously, we are capable of that decision as there are people here who are unhappy about it. You support their feelings, and yet patronize anyone who says it's not a big deal.

There is a bunch of bullshit being spewed here about an issue that, honestly, is exactly that: no big deal.

And to anyone who honestly wants to call me some names or accuse me or mutilation, or comment about my love for my children over this issue I'll say this: You are very brave when you are sitting behind your computer. I'll lay dollars to donuts you wouldn't be so brave to my face. I'll be happy to provide an address to any who PM me wanting to prove me wrong. Like most keyboard cowboys, I'm betting you are pussies when it comes to having to back your words up.

Side note: There are a whole bunch of new profiles that have been generated all since this thread has resurrected. And they all have similar name generation styles.

Pasa

Kudos to you

[darkeyes]

This is not bout u Pasa or ne 1 who has already been circumcised..this is bout those yet 2 b.. patronisin? o well.. sumtimes bein patronisin is a way a expressin how distasteful me finds sum things...

[tenni]

It seems to me that some posters are on a crusade about circumcision. Like most guys who are circumcised, I don't really think about it. It doesn't keep me up all night worry about what bastards that my parents were to me to mutilate me. If it did, I would suggest to myself to seek out counselling as I would have an issue to deal with...lol

It remains a personal choice decision. I understand that most guys are not circumcised in Europe. Is there a country that absolutely bans male circumcisions? There doesn't seem to be any country where properly done male circumcision have resulted in a conviction. There have been cases where parents have disagreed about giving permission and they ended up in court. In Australia Queensland, it has been determined that technically a doctor may be charged with assault for performing an infant male circumcision but not one doctor has been charged. Neither the State nor any individual has laid a charge.

There are examples where botched circumcisions have ended up in the court and doctors have been found liable for their mistake in a botched circumcision but none for doing what is approved as a medically correct procedure.

Guys that want to regrow their foreskin as adults are doing so for aesthetic reasons. Some claim to have regained more sensitivity but not a majority of circumcised guys in North America are even considering this procedure. There must be a reason why they don't. They see no need or no big deal. Get over yourselves is what they would tell someone who would say that they are mutilated. Oh...look that is what guys are posting here...lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_and_law

Fran
It is about us...those who have been circumcised. We are telling you to get over yourself. The male babies who are getting circumcised right now if they fast forwarded would tell you the same thing in twenty years. If they become a minority in North America, they may agree with you but it is the norm still.

[mikey3000]

Besides I have a huge mistrust issue with the medical establishment as of late. If my forskin was used to help find a cure for some disease, all the better. But lately, the focus of finding cures for diseases has gone by the wayside in favour of managing and controllint the disease. Remeber people there is no $$$ in curing disease, but there is plenty in managing it.

[tenni]

" For someone who lives in a nation that would be speaking German right now if it weren't for us, that's pretty damned funny."

Oh...for gawd sakes Pasa...lol

I was right with you up until this last sentence. Gee...let's not start an argument about how glorious and wonderful that the US was by "winning" da war...cuz it just is not so...except those who buy that from their government....fock sakes man...lol

[tenni]

It is not the norm in North America? I am referring to North America. You may know men who believe that their penis is mutilated but I know of none. Are you one of these circumcised North Americans who are angry? If you are one of these North American angry circumcised men, why not lay charges against the doctor and your parents? Test the laws or stop whinning.


Male genital mutilation is not the "norm". Most men in the world are not cut and have intact genitals with a foreskin. Look up the numbers for circumcision worldwide and it is not universally practiced and cut men are not the "norm" like you think.

I know men who had their cocks mutilated as infants and then when they became teenagers or adults and actually learned what happened and how not everyone gets cut and how it is genital mutilation they get angry and wonder just why it had to happen to them for pointless reasons and why their parents decided this for them and they had no choice, consent, or say in the matter.

[tenni]

Pasa
I think that we also have to be realistic. Most "straight" guys do not talk about their dick at all with their buddies once past 15 or so...:eek:

[TwylaTwobits]

You know what bothers me about all the "facts and figures" quoted in this thread?? They are all skewed. How you ask? This is how I see it. 100 men are asked various questions regarding sexuality. One of those questions is "are you circumcised".

Now in the US, most of the 100 men would say yes to that question. Let's deal in round numbers here. So say 80 of the men responded they were circumcised. 80&#37; of the men. That's about right, probably higher. Now out of those 80 men, 50 reported premature ejaculation problems. That's half the circumcised men but only 40% of the entire survey.

See what I mean about skewed data? Researches on most googled sites are in it for their own reasons. Show me one impartial study backed by people with no agenda to push and it might be fair.

To be completely honest with this, just for guys.

Answer these questions.

1. Have you had problems with premature ejaculation?
2. Do you have problems with erection failure?
3. Do you have sensitivity problems, either increased or decreased?
4. Are you circumcised?

Answer it honestly....then we'll get a better idea of what is really out their versus what is posted by people getting funding from various lobbies.

[mikey3000]

Get out and meet more men.

Of course you are from the generation of sexually repressed men who did not even admit that they masturbated let alone were something other than heterosexual to their male friends and peers, and this attitude even carries over into today. :rolleyes:

LOL!!! dude, I think you're a chick. You really don't have a clue.

[tenni]

What? How old are you?

I wrote that "straight" men do not discuss their dick amongst their friends. They will discuss it with their girlfriend wife before a male straight buddy. They may not even know if their buddies are cut or uncut, unless they have seen each other naked in the locker room. Why would they discuss it? Masturbate? Guys over 30 who are married will not discuss it with other straight guys unless they are a bit drunk and not getting any from their wife.

* waits for comment about how QL has so many straight buddies who are married who talk to him constantly about their dick and masturbating:cool:


Get out and meet more men.

Of course you are from the generation of sexually repressed men who did not even admit that they masturbated let alone were something other than heterosexual to their male friends and peers, and this attitude even carries over into today. :rolleyes:

[rissababynta]

* waits for comment about how QL has so many straight buddies who are married who talk to him constantly about their dick and masturbating:cool:

LMFAO!

[shybipinay]

Fran, I wanted to say this last night, but I wanted to sleep on it. You are being patronizing. It's insulting. Cut it out.

I'm perfectly capable of deciding whether I am happy or not being circumcised. And I am. Obviously, we are capable of that decision as there are people here who are unhappy about it. You support their feelings, and yet patronize anyone who says it's not a big deal.

There is a bunch of bullshit being spewed here about an issue that, honestly, is exactly that: no big deal.

And to anyone who honestly wants to call me some names or accuse me or mutilation, or comment about my love for my children over this issue I'll say this: You are very brave when you are sitting behind your computer. I'll lay dollars to donuts you wouldn't be so brave to my face. I'll be happy to provide an address to any who PM me wanting to prove me wrong. Like most keyboard cowboys, I'm betting you are pussies when it comes to having to back your words up.

Side note: There are a whole bunch of new profiles that have been generated all since this thread has resurrected. And they all have similar name generation styles.

Pasa

More kudos here.

Sorry Franny, you're on our ignore list as are all the "fake" handles on this thread.

As for the "side note", we listed the "fake" handles in an earlier post on this thread.

How does it feel to be talking to a brick wall?

[TwylaTwobits]

Shy, Fran is awesome. She gets a mite aggressive at times but at least she doesn't cast insults to prove her point.

[shybipinay]

Besides I have a huge mistrust issue with the medical establishment as of late. If my forskin was used to help find a cure for some disease, all the better. But lately, the focus of finding cures for diseases has gone by the wayside in favour of managing and controllint the disease. Remeber people there is no $$$ in curing disease, but there is plenty in managing it.



You've hit the nail on the head. Medicine is all about profit margins. Pharmaceuticals keep making money as long as they keeep the population sick and in ill health. Isn't this what we should be fighting? Not each other over a piece of skin on our cocks? Well, it may be more than that, but nothing is more important than banding together en masse and stopping the disease care system that is rampant among us because the pharmaceuticals and agri-business supposedly know what's best for us and we know jack-shit.

Just think, years from now, our species will be extinct because we were too stupid to get our priorities straight and we were too busy fighting amongst each other. And we thought good always won out over evil.

Kudos also to tenni and TwylaTwobits.

[rissababynta]

Thanks for the Kudos, but I have to disagree. Fran is not one of the trolls. That I disagree with her, and vehemently, doesn't change that. She is not fake. She honestly believes what she believes and she is warm, and caring.

She's also daft on a few issues, but if you ask her she'll say the same of me. Fran is on my top list of people from this site I want to meet in real life.

Pasa

I do have to agree. It is very easy to agree with Fran, and it is also very easy to disagree, but she is still a great person who I believe would never be mean spirited or malicious to anyone.

Luff you Fran :-)

[darkeyes]

I honestly don't give a damn why you are being patronizing. When someone pats my head my first gut reaction is to break their wrist. It's rude. And I damn well won't have someone get pretentious, pat me on the head like a child, and treat me as if I'm incapable of knowing what's good for me.

You have two choices at this point. 1. Realize that you are being rude and change your behavior. 2. Continue to defend it as somehow noble and continue to be rude.

Honestly, Fran, I like you a lot. I've said so publicly and personally. But, your view of America is downright insulting at times. You spend so much time telling Americans how we should be and looking down your nose at us, as if we were children. For someone who lives in a nation that would be speaking German right now if it weren't for us, that's pretty damned funny.

Pasa

Like u an all Pasa.. rude? can b sumtimes.. this time?? not reelly..exasperated mayb.. an tetchy.. me tries 2 reason wiv peeps but sumtimes reason dusn always work.. not that we can expect it always 2.. but for life a me jus cant undastand wy peeps r so determined 2 take decisions outa the hands a ther kids..they becum adults an responsible 2 ya kno.. an its bout time peeps sat back an accepted that ther sum things ya shudn take away from ya kids.. an parta ther mos personal bits for reasons otha than pressin medical need is 1a them.. yas deprivin THEM a choice wen they old ebnuff 2 make it...

..hav in anotha thread ansad the german speakin bit ...do a lil checkin pasa.. cos woot u sez is an arrogance in itsel..:eek:

.. an course wen me c's ( or thinks me c's) summat wrong wiv ne wer me will say so an say how me thinks they shud b.. u think me concentrates on the US? On this site mayb cos mosta wot is discussed seems 2 b 'merican issues cos most membas r 'merican.... u oughta 'ear wot me sez bout me own country.. now thers summaat 2 conjure wiv..;)

[darkeyes]

Awwwwww God ya don haff give me red face... *blush*

Luff u lot an all.. moren ya kno..even cheeky sods like Pasa who hav temerity 2 argify wiv me.. tee hee..

Now we hav big party goin on 'ere an wile me luffs ya oodles an oodles.. me promised me m8 a dance an its ovadue.. muaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

Dus luff ya.. reelly..:female::bipride::)

[darkeyes]

More kudos here.

Sorry Franny, you're on our ignore list as are all the "fake" handles on this thread.

As for the "side note", we listed the "fake" handles in an earlier post on this thread.

How does it feel to be talking to a brick wall?

This niggled a wee bit.. bein thot of as a troll or fake.. wy? No justification.. its ok in a sense.. am not angry.. but cos I differ from u about summat that means a great deal 2 me I becum a "fake" or a troll.. peeps can iggy me all they like.. wudn b the 1st an no doubt won b the last time..

...but its sad.. its sad cos it says that peeps only wanna hear ther side's case.. they don wanna lissen 2 the otha.. they don like home truths.. an for alla me faults.. the 1 thing me has always encouraged is peeps takin issue wiv every word me has eva written.. thats wot freedom a speech means.. thats wot democracy an freedom a expression is 'bout..

.. hav been a memba a this site almos since its incepotion an used 2 frequent its predecessor from time 2 time.. an hav luffed it..an hav luffed..an do luff so many wondaful amazin peeps.. lotsa whom me has fell out wiv verbally at 1 time or totha..fell out wiv verbally..an quite vehemently an all.. but very very rarely personally.. it has happened..an it has hurt..an don escape me own responisbility for it..

.. but "fake"? Jeez.. we all hav perceptions a how peeps r.. am lotsa things.. but nowt me has ev sed has been fake.. it cums from the soul.. hav passion for the causes in wich me believes.. me nev says owt me dusn believe.. fact that me differs in opinion from peeps don make me a fake ne more than me own perception a wot they say makes them so..

Me has a peculiar view a the world an all its wondas.. an this "fake".. or "troll" ifya prefer will b bak beatin 'er drum wetha Shy or ne 1 else puts 'er on iggie or not!!!!:)

[mikey3000]

QL, Dude, You talking like you personally discovered dick for the entire male population. LOL!!!

Guys have been blowing eachother long before you were even thought of. And I'm only 40, same generation if you are 36. It all has to do with the social status of the crowd you move with. Not every class of people can or would talk freely about their buddy's penis. It just isn't proper in polite society.

[Long Duck Dong]

I have one question about all that.... do you speak for all males.... or just regard your opinion to apply to all males ?

[shybipinay]

Bullshit. No damage inflicted here. I have a perfectly working penis. I get great pleasure from it, and have been told I am at least capable with it's use. No grief here either other than that I could hve been blessed with an inch or two more in length. But, we can't have everything.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Fran. Pat my head and tell me I don't know any better and I'll break your fucking wrist. I'll further tell you the following as I said before: If you wish to say these things in the comfort of your computer chair, how about saying them to my face? I'll be more than happy to PM you my address. I'm betting, however, you're a pussy.

I don't consider those who are against circumcision to be heretics. I consider them to be simply of a different opinion.

I consider those who tell me I'm mutilated or that I am a monster to have done this to my three sons to be morons. I consider them to be the same morons as the Evangelical Atheists, PETA members, and anyone else who feels that they have to be insulting and proselytizing when presented with a different viewpoint. I mean, honestly. In this thread circumcision has been offered up as a reason for rape. REALLY? HONESTLY? Fucking morons.

Side note: Anyone who says it to my sons personally will get a physically violent reaction from me. Not your fucking job, and I'm not above giving an ass kicking to a grown man for interfering with my children. Violence doesn't solve everything, but the willingness to use it creates a more civil society. And you will be civil where my sons are concerned.

At this point, it's not about the actual topic. It's about your methodology. It's about your attitude (all of you who have been insulting). It's about you, as a person, and how you treat others.

Since correlation is so loved by y'all, I'll put forth this correlation:

There is a direct correlation between those on this board who have been 'unmutilated' and those who act like assholes. Since there is a direct correlation, I'm so glad I'm cut.

Pasa

Our feelings exactly!!!! Thanks so much for stating it so eloquently.

[jamieknyc]

All of this business about made-up 'medical' reasons to be against circumcision or all of this nonsense about how it affects sexual satisfaction is just a smokescreen for the reaal reaason- prejudice. Circumcision would be as noncontroversial as having your ears pierced but for the fact that it is associated in people's minds with Jews (and in Europe, with Muslims as well).

[darkeyes]

All of this business about made-up 'medical' reasons to be against circumcision or all of this nonsense about how it affects sexual satisfaction is just a smokescreen for the reaal reaason- prejudice. Circumcision would be as noncontroversial as having your ears pierced but for the fact that it is associated in people's minds with Jews (and in Europe, with Muslims as well).
.. and that little outburst Jamie.. I find fucking offensive in the extreme.. that statement I do take personally.. that Jamie is as bad as calling parents who have had their children circumcumcised monsters, because what you are telling ME and is that I am a racist and religious bigot..

[topheavynurse]

I guess my views on circumcision stem from being a nurse. I go the medical veiw of this. I know a lot of ppl think that it is not cleaner to have the forskin removed but i am sure you have never seen a boy come in who was never taught to clean his uncircumcised penis correctly. i wont go into specifics but its not pretty or health.

[Long Duck Dong]

I guess my views on circumcision stem from being a nurse. I go the medical veiw of this. I know a lot of ppl think that it is not cleaner to have the forskin removed but i am sure you have never seen a boy come in who was never taught to clean his uncircumcised penis correctly. i wont go into specifics but its not pretty or health.

thank you nurse, this is the type of post I like to read as it raises a lot of issues that are not addressed

over here in NZ a lot of fathers are very careful about cleaning their sons penis, as it only takes one misassumed action to result in a accusation of child molestation... if the person is a step father, then its seriously dangerous

that does make it differcult nowadays for parents to be good parents in that respect, teaching and aiding good hygiene if there is the specter of assumption hanging over their heads.....

I did notice that there were remarks about cleanliness and keeping the penis clean and I did wonder about who the person was that would teach the child to keep it clean.... as if I was a person that was teaching a child how to get themselves clean, I would never admit to it on a forum ..... misunderstanding is everything and it only takes one report to make a good male parent into a father under suspicion and with the risk of losing their kids and relationship/ marriage for doing the right thing by their kids

unfortunately, in nz it has happened.... the rate of fathers that do not take care of their kids is on the rise, cos of the risks involved, and there has been cases of historical charges laid against fathers that included things like touching their kids in the bath etc... and the fathers have been jailed for it....

we are a society that is about protecting the rights of the kids... unfortunately, we do protect them from a lot of the help they need

[topheavynurse]

I do understand what you are saying my husband and i have had to deal with what he can and cant do. I have 2 girls from proir to us meeting. In most cases i would assume if you were afraid of this happening and accusations being thrown it would be the mother that should teach. and the teaching should begin at a very early age. You should not wait until they are bathing themselves to teach proper hygine.

[Long Duck Dong]

I know this is a odd request but do you have any links to sites that can help and show partners that have male uncut boys the best way to clean their penis

this would help many people more than the long winded posts by some of the other posters

[TwylaTwobits]

Okay once again, let me just make my point. I am not saying you are wrong for being uncircumcised, don't tell me I'm wrong for having my boys circumcised. It's a personal choice. In the US the choice is offered while your son is still a newborn and in the hospital, to have it done and make sure they are peeing fine before they are discharged. I have made my choice and no amount of name calling is going to make me secondguess that choice. If my children want an explanation when they are older, I will gladly explain why I did the things I did.

[Long Duck Dong]

3. Males who have been (choking back the 'm' word) circumcised are equally unlikely to ever be able to admit to themselves the damage inflicted. LDD is not a bad guy, but he certainly cannot come to terms with the fact he only feels half of what he should be feeling. The logic and evidence are infallible. Also is the Kübler-Ross grief cycle.

how can it be proved that I am feeling half of what I would feel if I did have a uncut penis and please, copy and paste from sites is not a measure of lack of feeling

I enjoy penetration, I love penetration, I function well as a male..... and I feel it just fine, my partner knows how touching and stroking and sucking the different parts of my penis, can give me extreme pleasure, ....

I could only grief the loss of something I have had a experience of knowing...and I have never had sex with a foreskin so I have nothing to compare it with in order for the grief cycle to take place

now I do find it very interesting that the lack of a foreskin is being compared to the grief cycle for a terminal illness and I do question how in hell a circumcision is a terminal illness...


so yeah I may have a lack of feeling in my penis, but I enjoy sex with my partner, she enjoys sex,. my penis size is fine for her, I am a functioning adult male..... and I find it hilarious that the only people that have a issue with my cock and how sex feels for me, are in a online site on the net....
yet I am being told that I do not know my own penis and that I can not be happy with my penis so logic dictates that I must be suffering from a grief cycle associated with terminal illness.....

may I say that this is the danger when people with no medical or counselling knowledge get hold of info and read it and think that they are suddenly experts in the field of medicine, surgery, counselling, religion and believe that they are the perfect parents and experts on child rearing

[TwylaTwobits]

Iwanna, in the US only the sons are circumcised with advice of the medical profession. If I had daughters, no I wouldn't have done anything as it's not medically recommended. Furthermore I wouldn't have pierced their ears as I see some parents do, that's a personal choice as well and one I make based on information that I have or was given by medical personnel.

[Orlando098]

I know this is a odd request but do you have any links to sites that can help and show partners that have male uncut boys the best way to clean their penis

this would help many people more than the long winded posts by some of the other posters

No, but it's not very complicated is it? From what another poster said, in early childhood the foreskin may be fused to the penis and if it does not move down easily you should leave it alone or just occasionally try, gently, to see if it is ready to move. Once it does, all you do is slide it down and wash under it while you are in the bath. Not rocket science.

[mikey3000]

Iwanna, in the US only the sons are circumcised with advice of the medical profession. If I had daughters, no I wouldn't have done anything as it's not medically recommended. Furthermore I wouldn't have pierced their ears as I see some parents do, that's a personal choice as well and one I make based on information that I have or was given by medical personnel.

Twyla, for what it's worth, I support your decision and would have done the same thing. I am circumsized, and have absolutely no issues at all. Actually I'm rather happy with me, despite what some here feel I should be experiencing. So please don't sweat it. Some people feel superior when they make others feel bad, especially when they see some personal axe to grind. Just be proud that you did what you think is best for your boys, and that you didn't cave to any political agenda. Good for you.!!!

[mikey3000]

LOL LOL LOL!!!!!

[rissababynta]

sigh...another one?

[shybipinay]

havemycockneatitoo

InTheNameOfLove

IwannaFUCKALLNIGHT

Kirsten79

MAG369

Ontheside

QueerandLoathing

Big iggy's to the bunch of you. As Pasadenacpl says:


I dare you to say those things to a mother's face. I double dog dare you.

You don't have the stones.

Come on, say it to our faces. We even posted the contact number for the Ministry of Children and Families manager. Call her and tell her you believe we abused our child.

[Conran]

Sometimes circumcision is required for medical reasons. It is sometimes the case that the foreskin atrophies (does not 'feed' from the blood supply) and begins to die off. This isknown as phimosis.

I've done quite a bit of research on the subject. Phimosis doesn't actually result in the foreskin losing blood supply. That would be a far rarer and more extreme scenario.
Phimosis is simply a tight foreskin.

The reasons for rectifying phimosis are primarily for cleanliness and to prevent discomfort during erection.

However, men have varying degrees of phimosis and it can be perfectly fine to have a case of phimosis to a degree where a medical professional may deem circumcision necessary but the guy doesn't feel any discomfort or difficulty at all.

There are also now methods of stretching (as you mention) that can greatly improve this condition without the need for circumcision.

Stretching methods also work to restore the foreskin. Depending on dedication and the methods used, a guy can go from no foreskin to complete coverage in just one year.

Personally, I don't believe that any doctor or parent has the right to mutilate a child unless their health is at risk. Doing this for religious reasons or for this supposed "cleanliness" issue is not a valid argument and the act is no better than the female genital mutilation conducted in parts of Asia and Africa. This has been deemed as offensive to Humanity and completely unacceptable, so why is it still acceptable to chop bits off of baby boys in the Western world?

It's hypocritical to condemn other societies for holding down girls and butchering them while allowing your own country to continue exactly the same form of barbarism against males.

So, if you accept doctors and parents circumcising their boys for no other reason than medical ignorance or religion, do you also support the men who butcher girls in other countries in a similar way and for similar reasons?

[sammie19]

This is an old argument and has recurred occasionally in forums. I agree that circumcision, for boy or girl without having good medical reasons for it is an unnecessary mutilation. In my country it has not been done routinely since my grandad's childhood. But it creates so much anger and bitterness in these pages and I am at a loss to understand why.

That the people of the richest nation on earth are so attached to male circumcision I find hard to fathom. Other than countries which are dominated by religious belief, few countries practice it unless it is done for religious or health reasons. Those parts of the world where it is not practiced routinely have medical professions that tell us quite the opposite of the medical profession in America. Who is right? They can't both be right, or can they? In one sense they can, for circumcision of a boy in infanthood can prevent problems occurring in later life, but little which good penile hygeine could prevent. However it is not unkown for young babies to die as a result of the operation wherever it is performed. Rare certainly but like any surgical procedure it involves risk.

Preventative mutilation is done by many people for a lot of different reasons, but more usually by those who choose it for themselves. Circumcision of baby boys is not in this category. Female circumcision is in a quite different category again and is a cultural practice which should be stamped out but in practice will be extremely difficult to do in some countries because of the powerful hold their culture has on them and because often it is done in remote areas by the surgeon who is no more than the local witch doctor. A butcher.

Whether or not we perform circumcison on boys without their consent, and there is no other way when the child is a few days and less old as in most cases, at least it is done normally with as much expertise and safety as can be mustered by the medical profession. That it should not be done unless there is an overriding health reason I have not the slightest doubt, but if and until countries like America allow the practice to wither on the vine, the argument will continue, and it is proper that it should. There are hopeful signs that the practice is already losing support and there are fewer circumcisions carried out in the United States on baby boys than was the case a few decades ago and the figures still show a drop year on year.

What we argue when we argue about circumcision, whether on boys or girls, is not whether it is mutilation, for that is unarguable, it is whether it is justifiable given our present state of medical knowledge. For girls the negative answer is more clear cut than boys, but for boys the weight of evidence internationally is also in the negative. That does not make the American medical profession wrong, but it does throw into question its motives for recommending its continuance.

[elian]

There was an obsession at the turn of the 20th century that lasted into the 1930's that seemed to promote circumcision as a way of reducing the urge of young boys to masturbate - which was deemed immoral. By 1950 circumcision was a common surgery.

The general idea is that if you reduced the sensation boys would be less likely to be drawn to the temptation.

This video has several quotes from respected medical publications of the period - typical Victorian philosophy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X09jPPeogLQ

I guess circumcision almost seems preferred to some of the "anti-masturbation" devices that were marketed during that era..man in iron mask is an understatement.

[elian]

Hmm, here's another video about female circumcision from the same producer..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1VaR9SpafE

[Annika L]

There was an obsession with this topic in the bisexual.com forums at the turn of February 2010 that lasted into March 2010, culminating in a member outing a particular several-headed troll, and accusing them of fanning the flames of controversy. I heard of late that this self-same troll, operating under yet a different alias, actually dug up the thread in question in an attempt to revive the smoldering arguments.

The worst of it was that nobody even seemed to realize that their collective chains were being jerked and so people resumed posting opinions to a thread that was sure to collapse shortly (with no doubt a minimum of flame fanning) into another dark age of barbarism.

Just a little historical perspective.

[DuckiesDarling]

Very well said, Annika.

[elian]

This is one of those issues where I'm not inclined to say outright that anyone is "wrong". People are entitled to their own opinion, life is complicated and who am I to judge what other people believe when I am just as failable? As cut, I tell you that I have no idea what it feels like to be any other way and I trust that my parents made the best decision they knew at the time - life is for living - and the giggly bits are just one part of who I am.

I just always assumed that circumcision had been around "forever" and at least in the US apparently it was/is more modern practice then I knew.

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology so it doesn't surprise me to learn that here is yet another way that Victorian philosophy has influenced our culture. The whole "manifest destiny" doctrine sort of grates on my nerves. Jekyll and Hide is an interesting metaphor..so prim and proper on the outside but still having to deal with the gamut of emotions that all humans possess. I was about to say that is unique, but I'm not so sure - I think Roman life, at least in the higher class was about the same way - dignified and proper in public but hell raising orgies, adultery, back room political deals at night.

I can see this is a traumatic issue for so so I will leave it alone now.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I'm trying to stay out of this. My only true comment is that I dare anyone on this thread to say these things to a mother, face to face. Its easy to be so hateful and offensive when sitting safely behind your computer.

Tell a woman that she must hate her child...please! Tell her she's a monster...I beg you. Have a camera man there. I want to see a Youtube vid of you getting your ass handed to you.

I doubt you have the stones. Pathetic keyboard cowboys.

Pasa

[yohko469]

OH get the FUCK OVER IT! *rips out hair*

If you are for it...good for you. If you area against it...good for you too.

If you think that one is nastier than the other, then stay away from it. Otherwise, quit your bitching and move on with your life!

I agree Rissa :)

[coyotedude]

I am so angry about how this thread has been hijacked over the years. And not just by the trolls.

You people need to grow up.

There is nothing wrong with vigorous debate. We all have strong feelings about something. I knew in posting this article two and a half years ago that people would voice different perspectives on the issue. That's absolutely fine.

What I have a problem with is the "holier than thou" attitudes of many of you. Last I checked, none of us were perfect.

There is something seriously wrong when you display such a lack of respect for other human beings, even those with whom you disagree.

My 7 year old kids act better than this.

Peace

[Pasadenacpl2]

Geesus. Can't this thread die? Please?

Pasa

[mikey3000]

Oh boy, again with the cut/uncut. Some people never learn.

For the last time, circumcision is the best. So now excuse me while go to my Jewish controlled health providers and see what other body parts I can lob off. One can never be too careful, ya know.

:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:

[drugstore cowboy]

I'm truly sorry for being so vicious.
There is simply no justification for molesting an innocent human.
I will go toe to toe with anyone who supports molestation (this includes female circumcision as well as male).
If a male cannot urinate, or his health is in grave danger, then yes; cut off his leg if he has gangrene; circumcise him if he cannot urinate (actually a single small longitudinal incision would allow urination without having to remove prepuce).

Preventive mutilation is NOT medicine.

P.S. any such violence I propose to/about females is %100 sarcastic in nature and meant to illustrate some evil.

I agree.

Anyone who does any sort of genital mutilation under the guise of "surgery" to an infant or condones it is clearly a monster and does not love their children or have their sons' best interests at heart at all.

[Katja]

I agree.

Anyone who does any sort of genital mutilation under the guise of "surgery" to an infant or condones it is clearly a monster and does not love their children or have their sons' best interests at heart at all.

Darling, you do your cause no good whatever by acting an speaking like a silly arse. I suggest that you chill a little, take a breath, put you brain into gear and think, and continue to make arguments on the merits and demerits of the cause you espouse, not on your opinion of the personal traits of your opponents.

[look4one]

I am not trying to argue here, but just trying to convey another perspectives:

Any good parent would never have intentionally done any harm to their children. I have two kids and I can attest to it.
Keep in mind that when we were born, our parents knowledge and attitude were very different than what we have today
At the time circumcision was a common thing to do, so they allowed it with GOOD intentions. I must emphasise GOOD because otherwise your parents would have abandon you long time ago because of the mischief that you did as a child.
The decision was based on what they knew at the time. We are talking about the time when women were still stereotyped to stay at home.
It was done, it is gone. Blaming anyone is not going to get us anywhere. We cannot change the past. c'est la vie. In Buddhism, it is all about acceptance to obtain inner peace.


Before anyone start firing at me, here are my own facts:

I was not circumcised when I was born.
I was circumcised at 20 years old, after making an educated decision based on the pros and cons of what I learnt.
My 6 years old son is not circumcised. He will make his own decision.
My personal preference is cut. I like my cut penis and I like other men's cut penis. As I mentioned on my earlier post, I find it aesthetically sexy.
If you are not happy with your body, then learn to live with it. I have a small cock (4.5 inches) in comparison to most guys. What can I do? Bitching and crying about it is not going to make it any bigger.
I just learn to accept the facts that I cannot change and find ways to make the best out of it.
:bipride:


Here is what we need to remember (in my own opinion):

Freedom of speech means everyone has the right to say what is in their mind. It is a good thing, otherwise, none of us would be here on this website as we would have been jailed, tortured and murdered because of our sexual orientation.
There are always two side of the coins:

'Good' circumcision: the ones that parents did/do with good intention, but either with or without educated knowledge on it.
BAD circumcision: the ones that is forced onto a person. This is what we need to focus on eliminating.

I am not sure what outlawing the practice would achieve, because there are different medical reasons why a circumcision had to be performed.
By outlawing the practice, we are going to see a black market where untrained and unqualified 'doctor'/'rabbi' would have a great day. We are going to see A LOT MORE circumcision nightmare stories that you see today.
Yes, qualified and trained doctors/rabbis are human, so they are prone to make mistakes. Shit happens. But at least, if you look at the number of mishaps that happens today in a controlled environment, it is very minimum.
There is a check and balance in the medical system that ensure the doctors/rabbis are trained accordingly
Also, by outlawing certain things (circumcision in this case), we are now infringing on other's freedom of speech.


At the end of the day, it is about Yin and Yang. We may never agree on every single commas, hyphens or dots, but it is the matter of finding the balance.


Just to cool everyone down:
I see Buddhism as a way of looking at life from a different perspective. There is no discrimination in this way of life. There is a new movie called Shaolin (Andy Lau and Jackie Chan) which is a very good movie. Even the soundtrack is great (here is the one with translation): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRYV4EKkW98

[BiDaveDtown]

Here's the basic scoop from a buddy of mine, a university professor of neuranatomy:

Circumcision cuts into and cuts off metres of important veins (blood return) and occasionally an artery (in the frenulum; blood supply). This alters the normal vascularity and ultimately the physiology of the penis, forcing a complex healing by putting capillaries into different duty. This affects the amount of blood that reaches the meatus -- likely an important component of meatal stenosis and the chief reason almost all intact men have functional meatal lips and most circumcised men don't. The meatal lips are the culmination of the raphe and are direct beneficiaries of the frenular artery. The lips, of course, are what close tightly together to keep pathogens out of the urethra. Another marvel of nature.

Also, the veins running through the foreskin ensure that in its relaxed, forward position the prepuce is not just a blanket, but a heated blanket. This in turn regulates the temperature of the glans, which in turn helps determine how close to the body the testicles ride (cool=closer to body=less sperm produced). Most circumised males have a consistently colder glans than intact males; some have an uncomfortably cold glans, particularly after sitting for long periods or after sports.

The efficiency of bloodflow through the foreskin & glans is a factor in proper tumescence and detumescence, though the body works mightily to overcome the vascular obstacles posed by the severing of a significant chunk of the venous system of the penis through circumcision. The alternate "mapping" the body is forced to do after iatrogenic injury is a marvel of nature, but never quite as effective as the original.

One of the foreskin's primary functions is to serve as an "early alert" system to tumescence; it is ultra-sensitive to any change in diameter of the glans and lets a male know well in advance of any change. Obviously, without a foreskin there is no monitoring of the glans and some circumcised males joke that they are well on their way to erection before they realize it. Not a big problem in most settings, but also not the way the body was designed to work.

The skin of the penis is unique on all the body, in that it is not attached to the underlying fascia. You can actually roll the tip of the foreskin all the way down to the pubic bone (depending on the elasticity of the frenulum). The body achieves this through a complexly-evolved nerve system that does not have the nerve endings run down from layer to layer as on the rest of the body; but rather, laterally in a specialized structure that allows complete freedom of the gliding top layer of skin. This means that the nerve endings are in fact attached to the body only at their extreme ends -- the pubis, and where the foreskin doubles back again and "ends" at the sulcus behind the glans. Since the rested foreskin is doubled-over, any cut that "shortens" it in this doubled state actually removes a cylindrical section from this sleeve, short-circuiting the complex nerve structure. Again, the body springs into action to repair this injury by having nerve endings attach over time to whatever nerves are nearby; but the section of the brain that corresponds to the nerve endings severed through circumcision go "black" and remain that way.

Circumcision, as a wound, also lays down a complex and irrreversible system of fibroblasts at the site of the circumcision scar, between layers of skin and the underlying fascia. Invisible to the naked eye, this dense web of cells defeats the purpose of the unique outer skin structure of the penis by creating an "anchor" which limits the mobility of the shaft skin and its gliding mechanism so important to sex. It is also why so many men at some point encounter difficulty with foreskin restoration, as these fibroblasts first need to break down before progress in stretching can be made.

My take on it is that some people don't care about any of this. They just like circumcision because they think cut cocks are "prettier". :rolleyes:

[BiDaveDtown]

I'm amazed that some basic issues are still overlooked.

1) There is no thing as a standardized "circumcision". The foreskin is integral to the penis (even fused in childhood) and there's no dotted line along which to cut. It's not like tonsils or the appendix which are identifiable structures. Circumcision is just less penile skin; unfortunately, it's a pretty evolved, vascular and innervated part of the penis that's surgically removed.

No two American guys have the same circumcision, so it's ridiculout to talk about it as if it's 2 camps: intact and circumcised. It's more like intact and a few million ways to have less penis. Some guys have "loose cuts" and some are cut so tight you want to cry for them. Some have straight cuts, and some have dark, jagged scars. Several have skin tags and skin bridges from the operation. Most circumcised men have meatal stenosis. The great news is that the penis is so fundamental to how we function that it bounces back from even the most savage cutting. Isn't that comforting to know?

2) Debates about sensitivity are bullshit, and fortunately there wasn't much of that here. Yes, the foreskin is sensitive and provides a vast amount of sensory feedback, when healthy and understood, but sensation shouldn't be confused with sensitivity. It is entirely possible for a circumcised guy to be more sensitive, because he lacks the mediating feedback from the foreskin. It's like the intact penis provides a balance of sweet and sour, high notes and low notes, while a penis lacking foreskin can be too "sweet" or too "sour". So I tend to believe guys who say they couldn't stand any more sensitivity; they'd probably have a more fulfilling and balanced sexual experience if they weren't cut.

A guy who connects well to his intact penis would never want to be circumcised; one who never had a foreskin beyond Day 2 or who never learned to read the biofeedback from his prepuce is more inclined to be undaunted about circumcision. As it is, intact men overwhelmingly vote to stay that way... only about 6 per 100,000 Finnish men (a very intact society) opt to get cut.

[liberlib]

My apologies to Flounder as I have not yet found the other threads on this subject and found this one somewhat fascinating.

Fascinating because of the flamatory responses and marks of 'urban legend' building.

Fascinating because of the degree that reactions blamed the influence of a misrepresented Jewish tradition. The real issue hinges on two points that have nothing to do with religion:
a. Is there valid medical evidence that male circumcision has true health benefits?
b. Is there valid medical evidence that male circumcision results in a significant loss of sensitivity?

On a., I have looked through the actual recent medical report that claims there is statistical evidence of less disease incidents among circumcised males in countries where diseases involve the penis. My wife teaches medical students about medical research and how to evaluate it and neither one of us found alarming evidence that the report was biased. The report we read actually, following good practises, indicates that the finding was not conclusive and the outcome should be not be taken as recommending circumcision because cultural factors on health may effect the outcome. But it did show a statistical significant outcome in history of related diseases between circumcised and uncircumcised males of the communities examined. Most of the controversy is from the interpretations of others reported and implied which claimed interpretations outside of the actual report.

On b., I have not found any validated scientific studies that report on a lost of sensitivity over the population of circumcised men vs uncircumcised. I have seen reports on that complications or inappropriate procedures can result in this damage and actual pre-op warnings about possible complications mention the loss as a possiblity. What I did notice is that reports of such problems were anecdotal (Wikipedia uses the terms 'unreliable' and 'cherry-picked' to describe anecdotal). Note that valid studies may exist; I just didn't find any.

Overall, the reports I did see indicated that there were probably valid benefits but not to such a degree that circumcision was recommended much less a medical necessity. When circumcision is not preformed, then training and practices to ensure cleanliness is indicated. In proverty stricking communities where cleanliness is an issue or where culturally men may not take care to keep penis clean and STD is rampant, the benefit from circumcision may be greater for public health reasons.

Finally, 'mutilation' is an overly emotionally charged term, especially when tied to religious issues. Where the procedure is inept or in unsantitary conditions such as village head man performing ritual circumcision, circumcision qualifies as mutilation. Where it is performed it is performed as a carefully managed medical procedure, it is closer to the class of removing an appendix, gall bladder, tonsils, or wisdom teeth. These all have advocates that suggest that they are too often medically unnecessary unless there is clear evidence of infection/damage.

Personally, if I had a son, I would struggle over this decision and would not want it done unless I had a doctor who clearly explained the choice at a practical level in as unbiased a presentation as possible. I understand the risks are higher to do this procedure later in life where the body has lost the resilence and recovery of a youth below the age of consent. It is tough decision for parents, who are responsible, but it is their responsibility to make the decision if it is to be done at the earlier age. I tend to reject surgical intervention and medication that does not have a clear justification so I probably would reject circumcision in the absence of other factors.

---Just read BiDaveDtown's two posts which were being written the same time as mine. I found them very helpful and resolved most of my hesitation about whether I would reject or decide for circumcision for my hypothetical son. I would reject it and would hope, as a parent, I had a doctor that would give me this information. However, I still am bothered by the emotionally loaded nature of many of the earlier posts.

[sammie19]

My take on it is that some people don't care about any of this. They just like circumcision because they think cut cocks are "prettier". :rolleyes:

This is a useless piece of information for levity if nothing else.

Within a very short time of moving from Northumberland to the central belt of Scotland I quickly found out that many guys referred to their penis as either cavalier (uncut, pretty with a nice hat) or roundhead (cut, ugly with a round helmet). This is a throwback to the civil war when the King's cavaliers (gay exciting but bad) fought the Parliament's roundheads (good, stern and boring).

Most guys north of the border consider their willies prettier and cavalier because they are uncut, whereas those who are circumcised think theirs are at least superior if not pretty. That most women in Scotland, and in Europe prefer a cavalier cock is the deciding factor, and I am only talking about this side of the Atlantic. It kind of makes a nonsense of your statement above Dave, although probably most north American women would agree with you.:)

[BiDaveDtown]

This is a useless piece of information for levity if nothing else.

Within a very short time of moving from Northumberland to the central belt of Scotland I quickly found out that many guys referred to their penis as either cavalier (uncut, pretty with a nice hat) or roundhead (cut, ugly with a round helmet). This is a throwback to the civil war when the King's cavaliers (gay exciting but bad) fought the Parliament's roundheads (good, stern and boring).

Most guys north of the border consider their willies prettier and cavalier because they are uncut, whereas those who are circumcised think theirs are at least superior if not pretty. That most women in Scotland, and in Europe prefer a cavalier cock is the deciding factor, and I am only talking about this side of the Atlantic. It kind of makes a nonsense of your statement above Dave, although probably most north American women would agree with you.:)

I was talking about people in countries where male genital mutilation is ubiquitious and people in those countries think that a chopped penis is "prettier" than one that's intact with a foreskin.

I also am from a country where men are left intact with a foreskin and men and women find cut penises to be ugly, strange, and that something major is missing from a man's penis!

The whole "circumcision protects against HIV and STDs!" argument does not hold water at all.

If it did then why did an entire generation or two of bisexual and gay men who were all cut at birth and born in the United States get infected with HIV and other STDs and die from AIDS?

Circumcision is not something magical that's going to prevent you from getting infected with HIV or other STDs if you're not having safer sex and using condoms.

[DuckiesDarling]

I was talking about people in countries where male genital mutilation is ubiquitious and people in those countries think that a chopped penis is "prettier" than one that's intact with a foreskin.

I also am from a country where men are left intact with a foreskin and men and women find cut penises to be ugly, strange, and that something major is missing from a man's penis!

The whole "circumcision protects against HIV and STDs!" argument does not hold water at all.

If it did then why did an entire generation or two of bisexual and gay men who were all cut at birth and born in the United States get infected with HIV and other STDs and die from AIDS?

Circumcision is not something magical that's going to prevent you from getting infected with HIV or other STDs if you're not having safer sex and using condoms.

So what country are you from? Profile says US from Dallas TX. No one is staying being circumsized reduces risk for HIV and STDS. Only safe sex with condoms or abstinence will do that. It does eliminate a lot of other nasty and painful things that can happen when the prepuce is left intact. You obviously have an opinion that circumcision is wrong, well not everyone shares your opinion, and not everyone equates circumcision to mutilation.

[sammie19]

So what country are you from? Profile says US from Dallas TX. No one is staying being circumsized reduces risk for HIV and STDS. Only safe sex with condoms or abstinence will do that. It does eliminate a lot of other nasty and painful things that can happen when the prepuce is left intact. You obviously have an opinion that circumcision is wrong, well not everyone shares your opinion, and not everyone equates circumcision to mutilation.

DD, Nasty and painful things can and do happen to any part of the body. We usually leave them intact, even those we can live without.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Yes. Like tonsils or appendixes

Pasa

[Katja]

Yes. Like tonsils or appendixes

Pasa

I do believe you are right, darling, and only usually removed in cases of medical need which I think is the point Sammie is trying to make. Of course if one is able to afford it, one may elect to have them removed at considerable expense to oneself. Of course that is one's own personal tonsils and appendix when old enough to make an informed decision for one's self. That is also the point.:)

[DuckiesDarling]

I do believe you are right, darling, and only usually removed in cases of medical need which I think is the point Sammie is trying to make. Of course if one is able to afford it, one may elect to have them removed at considerable expense to oneself. Of course that is one's own personal tonsils and appendix when old enough to make an informed decision for one's self. That is also the point.:)

Actually, tonsils and appendix are removed when necessary not something you wait til someone is a certain age to do it. Tonsils less so that appendix but emergencies still come up.

There is however a medical link to less penile cancer in circumsized boys, the better hygiene when foreskins are removed makes certain other illnesses less likely to surface.

All in all I wish Drew would just lock all circumcision threads. The debate is going nowhere. People from areas where circumcision was not routinely practiced like England and people in areas where it was practiced routinely like America will never agree. In the end it's a decision PARENTS have to make. I can't help but notice that the majority of those in favor of a ban on circumcision don't have children and have no clue what information is provided to parents at the hospital about all the pros and cons.

[Katja]

Actually, tonsils and appendix are removed when necessary not something you wait til someone is a certain age to do it. Tonsils less so that appendix but emergencies still come up.



I do believe that is what I said.

As to Drew looking at threads on circumcision, who are you or anyone else to say it is going nowhere? When people feel strongly about things they say so and that is what democratic debate and free speech is about. Many issues are recurrent, and it is quite possible that the pro circumcision lobby is winning the debate, although the discomfiture which you and others seem to feel with it makes me wonder. The fact that in the United States fewer new parents are routinely allowing their sons to be circumcised points to quite the opposite being the case.

DD, this is not a debate we can or should suppress or stifle, no matter how uncomfortable we are with it. It can be argued that we spend an inordinate amount of time debating it, but that is quite a different matter. The fact that some make it a very personal issue and begin accusations which have no substance in fact, and misunderstand or deliberately misconstrue the true nature of one side or other of the argument is regrettable but in many debates such things happen. That is the nature of democratic debate. Such people do their cause no good whatever, and by their confrontational and often obnoxious manner, prolong the debate and lose much value of the main thrust of their otherwise often excellent arguments. We both know to whom I refer.

[Long Duck Dong]

part of the trouble is not the debate, its the way its conducted.....

recently, a member in the site, decided in all their infinite wisdom or lack of it, to refer to people that circumcise kids, as child molestors.....

as any person knows, the defination of child molestor means something totally different..... and to label any person with that label, is totally insensitive and lacking in any understanding of how people would react to being called one of them....specially a parent.... there are many other name sthat could be used, but no, the member used that label.....

while I respect a persons right to express their opinion, a lot of the members have watched as anti circumcision threads are started in the site, and 9/10 immediately, circumcised males are referred to as mutilated etc etc....

not only it is insulting to circumcised males, but the attacks on parents and other people, are excessly nasty, rude and downgrading.... specially when some males have no option but to have a adult circumcision, it is a personal issue and something they can find hard to do.... but to then be told that they have a mutilated, semi functional penis and that many people find circumcised penises to be unsightly.... well, put yourself in the guys shoes, and imagine you have had a breast removed, then be told that you are a mutilated person......

that is a lot of the issues with the numerous threads about circumcision, most of the people doing the judgemental BS are not parents themselves, they are predominately males and lack the ability to post a expressive opinion, without downgrading, insulting and humilating other members in the site......

strangely enuf its generally the same members that are known for their thoughtless and offensive remarks in other topics to other members as well....

[sammie19]

And again.

http://www.iraresoul.com/circumcision.html

[DuckiesDarling]

Who am I Katja? Just one of the parents of three boys that was told that I was a child molester for circumsizing my kids. And to reiterate, the debate has descended to mudflinging of that nature. It's no longer a debate it's simply one side diatribing the other to death and when that doesn't work flinging out the worst names they can call some just for shock value.

I want the threads like this stopped because of that very reason. It would be different if some people on here had an ounce of common sense about things that don't even concern them personally.

[Darkside2009]

I watched the video of a circumcision on a baby boy posted in Sammie's post above. I would suggest everyone watch it, then ask themselves if they would still wish to put their infant son through such trauma.

I should, and will warn you, that the video is very distressing. However it is better to be aware of the realities of this operation, than to rely on the assurances of doctors with perhaps a vested interest in the remuneration of the outcome.

It has puzzled me as to why this practice has persisted in the US, in contrast to all the other modern industrialised nations. The medical reasons often quoted by adherents in the US, have been shown to be incorrect. If they were correct, one would expect a much higher rate of penile cancer etc in countries that didn't routinely practice this operation.

The simple fact is, that there isn't a correspondingly higher rate.

One is left with the conclusion, there must be some other reason for the disparity in medical opinion. A previous poster happened to mention the fee they paid to the doctor for the performance of this operation on their son. Multiply this fee by one million, the approximate number of male circumcisions in the US, every year, and one is left with the impression that this is quite a lucrative endeavour for US doctors and hospitals.

Intrigued, I wondered if anyone had undertaken any research on this topic. Without too much difficulty I came across the following article, which addressed a number of issues raised in this thread. I have been unable to copy and paste it for you, but I include the link to the article, for you to read yourselves. I would urge you to do so, it answers some of the points raised by those US parents, who stated in the thread, that they acted on the advice of doctors in making their decision to have this operation on their son.

Here is the link, the first part deals with female circumcision the second part male circumcision:-

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ljZZ9ZvD_kQC&pg=PA237&lpg=PA237&dq=Incidence+of+penile+cancer+in+European+Union&source=bl&ots=GyVKiwOEIe&sig=6-ClqXQDRAFhCbCI_R7O2M6KLYo&hl=en&ei=hhTbTZCONMKxhAeSpMm_Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Incidence%20of%20penile%20cancer%20in%20European %20Union&f=false

[Katja]

One is left with the conclusion, there must be some other reason for the disparity in medical opinion. A previous poster happened to mention the fee they paid to the doctor for the performance of this operation on their son. Multiply this fee by one million, the approximate number of male circumcisions in the US, every year, and one is left with the impression that this is quite a lucrative endeavour for US doctors and hospitals.



This must play its part in the continuation of the practice in the United States. It is a lucrative market for American peadiatricians and hospitals. A word of caution and someone mentioned this in a much earlier discussion on the topic. It can be argued that state run health services do not practice infant circumcision routinely because of financial constraints as dictated by the public purse. This is especially so now as health services find themselves under real pressure due the the economic mess we find ourselves in.

Circumcision, while once more common in the UK for instance than it is now began to drop off around the establishment of the National Health Service in 1948. It was never quite as prevalent as in the United States at its peak, but it was once more common than it is now.

It is not an argument I would accept but it is one which can be and is thrown at the anti circumcision lobby.

There is an argument in the British medical profession generally and paeditrics in particular about whether infant circumcision is an infringement in the human rights of a child and many medical people believe it to be nothing more than legalised infant mutilation (their term not mine). Elective surgery as a precaution for the prevention of the possibility of future disease is not unknown and can be performed within the NHS under certain circumstances. Removal of breast tissue in women is one such instance. But no parent can elect to have her child's healthy breast tissue removed. That must be done with the informed consent of the individual involved. Similarly no parent should be given the right to elect to have their son's healthy penile tissue removed.

The video in Sammie's post is graphic and somewhat gruesome. I agree with you that it is essential viewing so that people know exactly what we are debating.

[Long Duck Dong]

in a nut shell, its a operation that is basically cosmetic surgery in most cases, and only for some, a medically needed operation.....and in both cases its called circumcision.....

why not ask that circumcision be made a elective surgery requiring consent of the patient, unless it is deemed medically essential to perform the op at a earlier age by experts and specialist.... and still leaves the option open for adult circumcision, instead of the straight out * ban circumcision then hide our faces when its actually needed and a person can not have the op done *

that solves the issue of kids getting circumcised, leaves the door open for people that need it done for medical reasons, its a compromise that works in favour of near everybody..... and brings a lil more peace to the world....lol......

[Katja]

in a nut shell, its a operation that is basically cosmetic surgery in most cases, and only for some, a medically needed operation.....and in both cases its called circumcision.....

why not ask that circumcision be made a elective surgery requiring consent of the patient, unless it is deemed medically essential to perform the op at a earlier age by experts and specialist.... and still leaves the option open for adult circumcision, instead of the straight out * ban circumcision then hide our faces when its actually needed and a person can not have the op done *

that solves the issue of kids getting circumcised, leaves the door open for people that need it done for medical reasons, its a compromise that works in favour of near everybody..... and brings a lil more peace to the world....lol......

Has anyone suggested anything different? Not from anything I have read in these pages. The whole debate is about informed consent of the individual concerned. And no one has suggested that there should be an absolute ban on child circumcision when it is medically required. Then, as with any other surgical procedure, parental consent would be required taking into account information and appropriate medical advice received. That is only right and proper.

[DuckiesDarling]

Wow a vid of a surgery.....sorry not impressed. Seen em before, but news for most of you, you'd react the same way to seeing any surgery including a tooth pulled. It's bloody, it's clinical, it's surgery. And another attempt for people to go omg that's horrible...so is putting a dog to sleep, yet we do it all the time when our pet is suffering.

[Katja]

Wow a vid of a surgery.....sorry not impressed. Seen em before, but news for most of you, you'd react the same way to seeing any surgery including a tooth pulled. It's bloody, it's clinical, it's surgery. And another attempt for people to go omg that's horrible...so is putting a dog to sleep, yet we do it all the time when our pet is suffering.

Most decent people however don't put their pet down when it isn't.

[Long Duck Dong]

Has anyone suggested anything different? Not from anything I have read in these pages. The whole debate is about informed consent of the individual concerned. And no one has suggested that there should be an absolute ban on child circumcision when it is medically required. Then, as with any other surgical procedure, parental consent would be required taking into account information and appropriate medical advice received. That is only right and proper.

there are a lot of posts talking about mutilation etc etc, thats hardly informed consent or constructive debate..... and in the other thread there is no mention of a medical exemption for when a circumcision is medically required, in the article.... something I questioned....

I am middle of the road on a lot of things, as there is always more than one aspect to consider..... and thats why I am not being pro or anti circumcision... just amused at some of the negative remarks about circumcised people, parents and people that do circumcisions.....

maybe those people with the negative remarks would like to come up with a alternative for the people that need a circumcision, so that they are not * mutilated * by *molestors *

and as for the video.... sure, its bloody, its graphic but to a person like me that has been thru a number of operations, dealt with car accidents and suicides etc and farm work, I am pretty much immune to the *graphic * nature of it.....

[lizard-lix]

Wow a vid of a surgery.....sorry not impressed. Seen em before, but news for most of you, you'd react the same way to seeing any surgery including a tooth pulled. It's bloody, it's clinical, it's surgery. And another attempt for people to go omg that's horrible...so is putting a dog to sleep, yet we do it all the time when our pet is suffering.

I agree with DD totally not impressed, I have witnessed circumcisions performed for Jewish folks on 8 day old boys more than one once. It was not bloody, traumatic, or in any way evil.

The kids usually don't even cry (maybe a whimper for a minute)..

I still know most of those kids 10 - 20 years later and I assure you they are not freaked about the state of their cocks..

This thread really is becoming a waste of electrons..

Liz

[DuckiesDarling]

Most decent people however don't put their pet down when it isn't.

hmmm yeah spaying and neutering doesn't cause the pet pain and it keeps the owner from having lots more cats and puppies.... And newsflash, go call PETA, there are a lot of "decent" people who put their pets down for convenience reasons not because the pet is suffering. Or they callously abandon them on the side of the road to be killed by cars and wild animals cause they can't move with them.

[Katja]

hmmm yeah spaying and neutering doesn't cause the pet pain and it keeps the owner from having lots more cats and puppies.... And newsflash, go call PETA, there are a lot of "decent" people who put their pets down for convenience reasons not because the pet is suffering. Or they callously abandon them on the side of the road to be killed by cars and wild animals cause they can't move with them.

I did say decent people or is my and your idea of decent different?

[DuckiesDarling]

I did say decent people or is my and your idea of decent different?

You are getting pretty far afield with this, Katja. You are not a parent. I gave birth to three sons. I circumcised all my sons. They are healthy and happy and will never be thought of as a freak in a locker room. You are from a place where males are mostly uncircumcised and those that are circumcised are viewed as less because of it. So it colors your view. I reiterate, this is not a debate, it's a mudslinging competition. The thing is it's only one side that is trying the shock value tactics of labeling loving mothers child molesters and posting videos intended to disturb. Honestly, just because you personally don't agree with something, it doesn't make others wrong or some kind of monsters.

[Katja]

You are getting pretty far afield with this, Katja. You are not a parent. I gave birth to three sons. I circumcised all my sons. They are healthy and happy and will never be thought of as a freak in a locker room. You are from a place where males are mostly uncircumcised and those that are circumcised are viewed as less because of it. So it colors your view. I reiterate, this is not a debate, it's a mudslinging competition. The thing is it's only one side that is trying the shock value tactics of labeling loving mothers child molesters and posting videos intended to disturb. Honestly, just because you personally don't agree with something, it doesn't make others wrong or some kind of monsters.

I am not a parent, but I do know a wrong when I see it. American boys may well pick on the uncircumcised but that is insufficient reason to have it done. Currently from a peak of 85% of infants 40 years ago, the nunbers of circumcisions of American infants has dropped to something like 40%. I think that if anything schoolyard and locker room bullying must be about to reverse itself if it has not already begun to do so. Not being a man I cant say whether circumcised boys were ever bullied for being so in this country, but I dont know of any reports which tells us whether or not that is the case. Knowing English boys as I do they are more likely not bully but to have fun giggles with each about the difference in a very uncouth manner. Good old fashioned English toilet humour. I would definitely be interested to know whether that is the case or not.

Because I disagree with you does not make you a monster. You will find no such claim in anything I have ever said and would appreciate you not inferring that I ever did so. Very few on the anti circumcision lobby would claim that you to be a monster either. Some of the more idiotic and extreme among us possibly. Both sides have those I hasten to add. I do believe that it makes you wrong, but that is a judgement I have made but others, as is their right disagree with that judgement.

[Darkside2009]

By your comments, I'm left wondering, if you actually watched the video. To equate it with pulling a tooth is not a realistic comparison, the dentist will only pull a tooth if it is decayed beyond repair and will do so, under general or local anaesthetic.

Similarly, other operations performed by a surgeon are performed under local or general anaesthetic. In dental surgery, the dentist will wait until the patient informs him the area is numb before proceeding, an infant undergoing circumcision is unable to do this. Even women in childbirth are offered an epidural.

I'm aware that people of the Jewish faith routinely have their sons circumcised at eight days old, in a ritual started by Abraham. Also that baptism was intended to replace this ritual for Christians. Baptism, I think you will agree is less traumatic for the infant than circumcision. Circumcision was intended by Abraham to mark the Jews as God's chosen people and an uncircumcised male is not supposed to participate in the Passover meal.

As a Christian I can't help but feel that Abraham was a deeply troubled man, one that was ready to stick a knife in his son as a human sacrifice. Such a man, nowadays, would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic and secured in a local mental hospital, where he could receive treatment.

That the practice has continued from that time, is, in my view, regrettable.

I have also worked on a farm before and didn't find it comparable to this. Farm animals are regarded as the farmer's possessions, children should not, to my mind, be regarded as such.

As to euthanasia on our pets, when performed by a vet, this is performed by an overdose of anaesthetic, which is quick and painless. It is usually performed when the animal in question is suffering from an incurable illness.

I am aware that there are people, who, through economic reasons, or old age, or simply because they don't care, are incapable of looking after a pet and that such people abandon their pets, or leave them in squalid conditions.

There are organisations that take these animals in and try to find new homes for them. This however is a digression from the subject of this thread, if you wish to open a new thread on this matter I'll happily debate it with you.

On watching the video, my instinct as a man, was to intervene and protect the helpless, child from the obvious distress he was in. That the Father could be there and not intervene, that he could be immune to the obvious distress of his son, I find deeply troubling.

That anyone could witness that on their son and agree to a repetition on other sons they might have simply fills me with astonishment, more so since your own US medical associations no longer recommend it.

Finally, as in any other thread, people who do not wish to participate in the thread, do not have to. It is not forced upon them. That tempers have flared and the level of debate has descended at times to name-calling, is indicative of the intelligence and education of the individual poster concerned.

The message should not be ignored because of the inept manner in which it was delivered. As people we can be passionate about many beliefs, but we should not allow that passion to cloud our judgment. We convert people to our opinion, by the persuasive, logic of our thinking, not by bludgeoning them with smears and insults.

To those that have felt so aggrieved, I offer my sincere apologies.

[drugstore cowboy]

I agree with DD totally not impressed, I have witnessed circumcisions performed for Jewish folks on 8 day old boys more than one once. It was not bloody, traumatic, or in any way evil.

The kids usually don't even cry (maybe a whimper for a minute)..

I still know most of those kids 10 - 20 years later and I assure you they are not freaked about the state of their cocks..

This thread really is becoming a waste of electrons..

Liz

How would you know? Did you actually ask those adult men if they're OK with having the most sensitive parts of their penises and centers for sexual pleasure literally ripped off and taken away from them without their consent or choice?

I've met lots of cut men of all orientations and even Jewish men who have told me how they're very mad that they're cut and if they had a choice they would not have been cut at all.

Yes the boys do cry, go into shock, and it's very traumatic to them when they get a sensitive part of their penis cut, torn, and ripped off.

Then again when I was born they liked to claim that all infants both boys and girls could not feel any pain at all which is pure BS. :rolleyes:

Not all Jews are even for male genital mutilation and there are Jews even in Israel and other countries who do not get their sons' penises mutilated because of their religion.

Then there are these issues:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/t/rabbi-probed-circumcised-infants-herpes/

Ten days after Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer performed religious circumcisions on twins last October, one died of herpes and the other tested positive for the virus, according to a complaint filed by the health department in Manhattan Supreme Court.

The complaint, reported in Wednesday’s edition of the New York Daily News, also said health officials later found a third baby who had contracted herpes after being circumcised by Fischer in late 2003.

Under Jewish law, a mohel — someone who performs circumcisions — draws blood from the circumcision wound. Most mohels do it by hand with a suction device, but Fischer uses a practice rare outside strict Orthodox groups where he uses his mouth to draw blood after cutting the foreskin.

City health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who was one of three infants to contract herpes after a rabbi circumcised them.

http://www.aztlan.net/metzitzah_b_peh.htm

Los Angeles, Alta California, February 2, 2005 - (ACN) An incredible, shocking and horrific report is coming out of New York City concerning male baby fellatio, genital mutilation and the infection with "herpes" of three infants by a Jewish Rabbi. City of New York health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who was one of three infants infected with Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 that exists predominantly in the mouths of homosexuals. The practice called "metzitzah b’peh" by Jews is routinely practiced on Jewish baby boys and may explain their sexual dysfunctions later in adult life. Many adult male Jews are "mother fixated" and exhibit a preponderance of homosexual and feminine characteristics. They are being "shocked" out of their masculinity as infants by the ancient and bizarre practices of Jewish Rabbis. It is not yet known what percentage of Jewish males go through the horror.

The case was made public after the New York Health Department filed a complaint in the Manhattan Supreme Court against the Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer. The rabbi had performed "metzitzah b’peh" on twin baby boys last October. A few days later one died of herpes and the other tested positive for the virus. The health department later found a third baby with the Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 that the rabbi had "sucked his penis".

This incredible but true report is now casting doubts on the "medical" practice of circumcision which is unnecessary, Jewish inspired, and amounts to nothing less than "male genital mutilation." There are now a vast number of medical studies that prove that males grow up healthier and perform better sexually when their penises are left intact. The "circumcising" of Gentile baby boys is essentially "Judaizing" them for life.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregion/26circumcise.html

[drugstore cowboy]

You are getting pretty far afield with this, Katja. You are not a parent. I gave birth to three sons. I circumcised all my sons. They are healthy and happy and will never be thought of as a freak in a locker room.

LMAO this is by far the WORST reason ever to mutilate your sons' penises!

You're worried about other people looking at your sons' penises in a locker room?

I'm not cut and I've never had an issue in the locker room from anyone ever.

Yes I've seen other men who are not cut in gym locker rooms, even if I'm the only man there who isn't cut it's not a big deal.

Women who have no idea at all what it's like to have a penis or about how a foreskin gives a man lots of sexual pleasure rob their sons of this sexual pleasure all because they worry about them being teased in a locker room.

[BiDaveDtown]

And again.

http://www.iraresoul.com/circumcision.html

Thank you for posting this.

1.
You give your son a gift by hardening him early on to life’s inevitable pain
2.
Circumcised boys never have to face teasing for having a filthy foreskin – and your bleeding, stunned, little infant will thank you for this later
3.
Moses and Jesus lived productive lives without foreskins – what, you think your kid is special?
4.
Nazis hated circumcised penises, therefore circumcision must be a good thing
5.
If God intended males to keep their foreskins He never would have put the idea of circumcision into people’s minds
6.
Mommies secretly like the look of circumcised penises
7.
You’re a pervert for thinking about a boy’s penis so much – for Christ’s sake, just let the good doctor do his job
8.
It is uncomfortable and rude to say “no” to a doctor
9.
The ancient Greeks practiced circumcision, and everyone knows they had the greatest respect for little boys
10.
What, you think that a needy, sniveling, whining, ungrateful, hours-old brat has any right to experience bliss on his first day on earth?
11.
Ritual religious circumcisions are a great chance to bring family together for a grand celebration – and you’re a killjoy for thinking otherwise
12.
Circumcised men are less likely to spread the AIDS virus; but in all fairness, men whose entire penises are removed are even less likely to spread HIV
13.
Traumatized boys are easier to manage; they know who’s boss from the get-go
14.
Don’t stress, everyone knows that circumcised foreskins grow back in time
15.
I can give you a list of a hundred circumcised men who make six-figure incomes, which proves that circumcision is financially beneficial
16.
Adult human penises wreak a lot of damage on this earth, so causing an infant’s penis a little pain is a justified form of preemptive revenge
17.
The Dalai Lama said that we all choose the families into which we are born in order to work through the wrongs of our past lives, therefore baby boys born into pro-circumcision families are responsible for having chosen this karma for themselves
18.
You give your baby boy something he can obsess about in therapy later in his life
19.
Baby boys love having knife-wielding strangers fondle their genitals
20.
Since girls have to get their ears pierced it’s only fair that boys should get the tips of their penises cut off
21.
Botched circumcisions add variety and spice to life
22.
Uncircumcised penises get very dirty, which requires a lot of extra work for busy moms – which is why I’m all for clipping off babies’ ears and nostrils as well
23.
Nip the problem in the bud: there’s less cutting involved in circumcising a tiny baby boy than there is in circumcising an adult man
24.
Doing unto your sons what your parents did unto you helps maintain continuity between the generations
25.
The ideal would be to circumcise baby boys in the womb – before they’re even alive!
26.
Mere mortal, what right have you to question ancient religious texts that were handed down by God Himself
27.
Genitals are evil; the less of them the better
28.
Michelangelo’s David was circumcised, and he is the greatest work of art ever [1/31/2007: A credible (anonymous) reader who recently traveled to Florence emailed me that “David” is in fact uncircumcised. Therefore, I hereby apologize for having stated that David was “the greatest work of art ever,” as clearly he is not. I am deeply sorry for any harm or trauma I may have unknowingly caused readers. -Daniel Mackler, LCSW-R]
29.
Scientific PROOF: Some (flawed) studies show there to be a slight decrease in urinary tract infections among circumcised male babies (P.S. Be sure to read the commentary at the end of the study!)
30.
Since doctors vow to “do no harm,” circumcision cannot possibly be harmful
31.
It’s not like mutilation of a baby’s genitals is sexual abuse!
32.
He’ll forget it all anyway
33.
It takes a lot of hard work and practice to become a good circumciser, and you want to put a hard-working professional out of business?
34.
This discussion is irrelevant, because everyone knows that babies don’t feel pain

In conclusion, if your mind is still not made up, watch this five-minute video of a routine hospital circumcision.

[drugstore cowboy]

By your comments, I'm left wondering, if you actually watched the video. To equate it with pulling a tooth is not a realistic comparison, the dentist will only pull a tooth if it is decayed beyond repair and will do so, under general or local anaesthetic.

Similarly, other operations performed by a surgeon are performed under local or general anaesthetic. In dental surgery, the dentist will wait until the patient informs him the area is numb before proceeding, an infant undergoing circumcision is unable to do this. Even women in childbirth are offered an epidural.

I'm aware that people of the Jewish faith routinely have their sons circumcised at eight days old, in a ritual started by Abraham. Also that baptism was intended to replace this ritual for Christians. Baptism, I think you will agree is less traumatic for the infant than circumcision. Circumcision was intended by Abraham to mark the Jews as God's chosen people and an uncircumcised male is not supposed to participate in the Passover meal.

As a Christian I can't help but feel that Abraham was a deeply troubled man, one that was ready to stick a knife in his son as a human sacrifice. Such a man, nowadays, would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic and secured in a local mental hospital, where he could receive treatment.

That the practice has continued from that time, is, in my view, regrettable.

I have also worked on a farm before and didn't find it comparable to this. Farm animals are regarded as the farmer's possessions, children should not, to my mind, be regarded as such.

As to euthanasia on our pets, when performed by a vet, this is performed by an overdose of anaesthetic, which is quick and painless. It is usually performed when the animal in question is suffering from an incurable illness.

I am aware that there are people, who, through economic reasons, or old age, or simply because they don't care, are incapable of looking after a pet and that such people abandon their pets, or leave them in squalid conditions.

There are organisations that take these animals in and try to find new homes for them. This however is a digression from the subject of this thread, if you wish to open a new thread on this matter I'll happily debate it with you.

On watching the video, my instinct as a man, was to intervene and protect the helpless, child from the obvious distress he was in. That the Father could be there and not intervene, that he could be immune to the obvious distress of his son, I find deeply troubling.

That anyone could witness that on their son and agree to a repetition on other sons they might have simply fills me with astonishment, more so since your own US medical associations no longer recommend it.

Finally, as in any other thread, people who do not wish to participate in the thread, do not have to. It is not forced upon them. That tempers have flared and the level of debate has descended at times to name-calling, is indicative of the intelligence and education of the individual poster concerned.

The message should not be ignored because of the inept manner in which it was delivered. As people we can be passionate about many beliefs, but we should not allow that passion to cloud our judgment. We convert people to our opinion, by the persuasive, logic of our thinking, not by bludgeoning them with smears and insults.

To those that have felt so aggrieved, I offer my sincere apologies.

Not all Jewish people or even Moslems circumcise their sons.

I've met Jewish men who were not cut because their Jewish parents did not want them cut and I've met some Moslems who had enlightened parents as well.

http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Western societies have no problem condemning female genital mutilation (FGM) in Africa. People need to rethink their notion of "sexism." It is sexism when the same act is considered abhorrent when done to girls yet acceptable when done to boys.

Women have said, “I think a circumcised penis is more attractive.” What if your father thought women without clitorises or clitoral hoods were more attractive and had yours removed at eight days old? How would you feel?

What if your fiance told you that he thought women without clitorises were more attractive and wouldn’t marry you unless you had your clitoris or clitoral hood removed (circumcised)? Would you do it? Or, would you tell him he has no right to impose his sexual fetishes on you and promptly terminate your engagement.

A recent book, published by a woman in the United States, indicates that there are sexual disadvantages for women from MGM (Male Genital Mutilation) as well. See http://www.SexAsNatureIntendedIt.com