Disturbing article w/ comments

[MarieDelta]

Saw this(http://www.topix.com/news/transgendered/2008/01/controversial-law-on-gender-identity-tested) this morning...

Comments?

IMO the bathroom issue is one of the hardest issues that we as trans people are confronted with, why am I bringing it here? Because I value your input..

[HighEnergy]

A friend of mine was banned from the library for using the women's bathroom. Bathrooms are one thing, since folks are in a stall in the women's room anyway, but I can see it might upset women more in a locker room where folks are walking to and from the showers, getting dressed outside of a stall.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me at all, but then folks point out I'm weird like that. We all have bodies, some more attractive than others, but I see no reason to have shame in nudity.

[Skater Boy]

Its a tricky issue.

If I'm being completely honest, given my own somewhat less-than-straight leanings, I sometimes feel a little uncomfortable sharing a locker-room at the gym with a bunch of predominantly hetero men. But then I'd be just as out-of-place (if not more so) in a women's locker room. so its a no-win situation.

hey, maybe they should make SEPERATE locker rooms and bathrooms for sexual minorities and transgendered people? Not wanting to segregate us or anything, but it might solve a few problems. and just think of all the fun we could have in them...

[MarieDelta]

My concern isn't that this person wasn't avtually trans, but someone trying to stir up trouble.

If you notice they didn't even stay in the shower/ locker room for any length of time.

In California, all state parks have individual stall unisex bathrooms with a community sink. The stall are lockable, have a standard door (not a bathroom stall door) on them, and are accessed from the outside.

For me that made going to the parks easier, I didn't have to think about which gender bathroom I was going to use.

The rule being in California, that what ever gender you present as is the restroom you use.

Which raises all kinds of issues. I don't want to go in to the facilities and freak any one out male or female. But like anyone, there are times when I gotta go to the facilties.

One reason I don't go to the gym is that no matter which locker room I use there are bound to be problems.

[diB4u]

Its a tricky issue.

If I'm being completely honest, given my own somewhat less-than-straight leanings, I sometimes feel a little uncomfortable sharing a locker-room at the gym with a bunch of predominantly hetero men. But then I'd be just as out-of-place (if not more so) in a women's locker room. so its a no-win situation.

hey, maybe they should make SEPERATE locker rooms and bathrooms for sexual minorities and transgendered people? Not wanting to segregate us or anything, but it might solve a few problems. and just think of all the fun we could have in them...


Ahh but skater your not the only one... Personally i would never wanna share a locker room shower with anyone.

Ugh.

Its like some swimming baths, they have them communial showers... (or they did when i used to go swimming) and that really bothred me. If i was gonna shower i'd want to be naked and washing myself.

I'm just too self conscious to go into a commmunal one.

Guess i just have issues with my own nudity...

:eek:

[Skater Boy]

One reason I don't go to the gym is that no matter which locker room I use there are bound to be problems.

Well, MD, it would seem that we either lobby for communal locker rooms and bathrooms as standard, or seek to have additional seperate ones for anyone who does not fit cleanly into either catagory (by the dominant ideologies of the given society).

I suspect that COMMUNAL rooms would be more inclusive and less alienating that seperate ones. But given my experience (as a bisexual male) of locker rooms, a communal one still may not prevent hostility and/or vitimization.

It would be interesting to hear whether the Trans community would welcome the idea of having their OWN locker rooms, or find the concept offensive.

[Skater Boy]

Ahh but skater your not the only one... Personally i would never wanna share a locker room shower with anyone.

Ugh.

Its like some swimming baths, they have them communial showers... (or they did when i used to go swimming) and that really bothred me. If i was gonna shower i'd want to be naked and washing myself.

I'm just too self conscious to go into a commmunal one.

Guess i just have issues with my own nudity...

:eek:

Ah, but that's more a question of privacy and being comfortable and secure about your own body, rather than a gender or sexuality related discomfort. These days, communal showers in public venues are not so common, unless you're at school. But I do agree that NOBODY should be FORCED to use communal showering facilities against their wishes, EVEN in educational institutions.

[shameless agitator]

In California, all state parks have individual stall unisex bathrooms with a community sink. The stall are lockable, have a standard door (not a bathroom stall door) on them, and are accessed from the outside. I think this is the best solution.

The rule being in California, that what ever gender you present as is the restroom you use.

Barring the first one, I'd say this is the most sensible.

[diB4u]

Well, MD, it would seem that we either lobby for communal locker rooms and bathrooms as standard, or seek to have additional seperate ones for anyone who does not fit cleanly into either catagory (by the dominant ideologies of the given society).

I suspect that COMMUNAL rooms would be more inclusive and less alienating that seperate ones. But given my experience (as a bisexual male) of locker rooms, a communal one still may not prevent hostility and/or vitimization.

It would be interesting to hear whether the Trans community would welcome the idea of having their OWN locker rooms, or find the concept offensive.


LOL as far as toliets are concerned, dear god can you imagine if one day we all had to wee and poop with others around us...

I dont wanna watch others pee either, so seperate seperate all the way baby...:tong:

[Skater Boy]

LOL as far as toliets are concerned, dear god can you imagine if one day we all had to wee and poop with others around us...

I dont wanna watch others pee either, so seperate seperate all the way baby...:tong:

Which is why, as MD says, the toilets should all have lockable cubicles. That way, communal or not, everyone's privacy is protected, and EVERYONE could use the SAME room.

Its not so simple with locker-rooms though, because people have to dry themselves off after showering, which means "communal nudity", and may cause problems.

[diB4u]

Which is why, as MD says, the toilets should all have lockable cubicles. That way, communal or not, everyone's privacy is protected, and EVERYONE could use the SAME room.

Its not so simple with locker-rooms though, because people have to dry themselves off after showering, which means "communal nudity", and may cause problems.



Yes yes i know... Tut.... ~Now you know why i dont do sports lol, i dont wanna see nude ppl or them to see me...

[Skater Boy]

Now you know why i dont do sports lol, i dont wanna see nude ppl or them to see me...

Actually, thats part of the fun of locker rooms (at least for me)... getting to check out the other people's bods! BUT, if you're gonna do that in a same-sex locker room, discretion is advised, or else you might end up with a black eye (or worse!).

[diB4u]

Actually, thats part of the fun of locker rooms (at least for me)... getting to check out the other people's bods! BUT, if you're gonna do that in a same-sex locker room, discretion is advised, or else you might end up with a black eye (or worse!).



No i'll never look i get this tunnel visson issues, i dont look.. its like a mantra i say to myself.. Cause then if they find me looking, ugh....

Besides I can look at the boobs without looking lol...

[transcendMental]

It would be interesting to hear whether the Trans community would welcome the idea of having their OWN locker rooms, or find the concept offensive.

Skater Boy,

I think that having Trans locker rooms/bathrooms sounds a bit like having "black" water fountains, locker rooms and bathrooms in the pre-60s.

BUT

I think that having unisex locker rooms and bathrooms, in addition to the regular ones, is fine. Then, anyone who feels uncomfortable going to the one for men or for women has an alternative, and anyone who isn't hung up and doesn't care who they shower around has another alternative.

Personally, I would use the unisex facilities during transition, when I would worry about making others uncomfortable if I used either of the others. After transition (post-surgery), I would use the women's facilities, because, ok, I am hung up and do care about who I shower around.

Of course, if the line was really long at the women's room, and I had to go really bad, I may well get practical, and use the unisex room! :tongue: I'll bet many other women would feel and do the same!

tm

[Skater Boy]

No i'll never look i get this tunnel visson issues, i dont look.. its like a mantra i say to myself.. Cause then if they find me looking, ugh....

Besides I can look at the boobs without looking lol...

Haha, yeah, I always say to myself: "Now... DON'T look... just PRETEND you're blissfully ignorant of the fact that there is anyone else in the room... who happens to be NAKED!"

More often than not, I don't look. Or at least if I do, I do it discreetly... some hetero men can get VERY edgy if they catch you staring it their meat and two veg... and I value my safety enough to respect other men's privacy... at least most of the time.

[Skater Boy]

Skater Boy,

I think that having Trans locker rooms/bathrooms sounds a bit like having "black" water fountains, locker rooms and bathrooms in the pre-60s.

BUT

I think that having unisex locker rooms and bathrooms, in addition to the regular ones, is fine. Then, anyone who feels uncomfortable going to the one for men or for women has an alternative, and anyone who isn't hung up and doesn't care who they shower around has another alternative.


Thanks, TM... that's what I suspected. :)

[transcendMental]

I just read the forum discussion following the article (about 83 posts as of now), and had some reaction to that.

To summarize the discussion, it started with some emotional posts from people who didn't understand trans issues at all, and conflated homosexuality, cross-dressing, and transsexualism. So many people are unfamiliar with these issues, though, that I was neither surprised nor offended by the posts. But next, a transwoman named Rikki starts "taking up the cause", berating people for their ignorance, and basically fanning the flames.

Clearly, Rikki was well-informed, but she didn't seem to be making any attempt at actually conveying information - it appeared to me that she just wanted to make people look or feel stupid. As an educator myself, it was painful to watch somebody so badly botching an opportunity to inform others.

At one point, one of the discussants actually recognized that he and some others were behaving badly, and apologized, and said this kind of nastiness really wasn't him. But rather than accepting this gracious apology, Rikki continued to bate and pick. Fortunately, some better-spoken educated people entered the conversation and tried to tone things down a bit and genuinely impart information, but in most cases, the damage had been done.

So what have I learned from this? Basically that despite the enormous base of adversity and ignorance that already exists against transsexualism, transsexuals themselves can the most dangerous adversity in the trans cause. If we allow ourselves to become bitter and jaded, or self-righteous, then we have no prayer of educating the public and obtaining their support (which we desperately need). This suggests to me that the place to begin educating isn’t necessarily with the public at large, but within the transsexual community itself. And the kind of education that is needed there isn’t facts about trans issues – that component of their education may already be in place, through the therapy process. Rather, we need to educate transsexuals on how to interact sensitively and effectively with the public – effectively, we need to educate them on how to educate rather than to inflame the public. It feels as though until this is in place, any amount of getting information to the public will be only so much spinning of wheels.

BUT, as depressing as it was to read the whole forum, the one shining light for me was how positive the discussion here has been. I think that the inclusion of T in LGBT (while understandably controversial, since T is not a sexuality issue) is extremely valuable to transsexuals. It gives us a place to begin educating at least one sector of the public, who might be a bit more open to that kind of education than the general public would be. I for one appreciate greatly the interest people show on this site for learning about these issues, even though I know they make people uncomfortable at times.

So thanks to all, and thanks to Marie for posting this thread!

tm

[Delilah]

As a Transgendered Woman, I use the female restroom. I'm in, do my thing, wash my hands, touch up on make up or hair if needed and then off I go. I never had the problem. The whole idea for me is to blend as much as possible. I think I'm doing a pretty good job with or without make up. I just blend in.
Here is the kicker folks...
I went with a CD friend of mine who wants to go full time as a woman. She is pretty much very passable and blend in very well. But her action needs work. Such as sitting down properly as a lady. Women don't sit with one leg over the knee. Men sit down that way. Women sit with their leg over the other. That's proper lady like. When I took her to the restroom, I told her how to handle herself. As a lady. But I forgot one minor detail and it was a horrible situation...lol You can see feet under the stalls when you first walk in. SHE WAS STANDING UP TO PEE!!! :eek: YOU CAN HEAR THE NIGRA FALL IN THE STALL!!! OMG... It was a good thing no one was in there. I said, "GIRLFRIEND!! SIT DOWN!!" :eek::eek::eek:
Later I coach her more on restroom behaviour lol. I told her at home, I don't care if nobody lives with her, get use to the idea of SITTING DOWN!!
I do have to admit one thing though. When we were traveling, there was no rest stop in sight and we had to pull over and run into the wooded area. Advantage: since nobody was looking, I could get away with standing up. Hey... it's an emergency and I don't feel like sitting on prickly things...lol

[BiphobiaFighter]

But I forgot one minor detail and it was a horrible situation...lol You can see feet under the stalls when you first walk in. SHE WAS STANDING UP TO PEE!!! :eek: YOU CAN HEAR THE NIGRA FALL IN THE STALL!!! OMG... It was a good thing no one was in there. I said, "GIRLFRIEND!! SIT DOWN!!" :eek::eek::eek:
Later I coach her more on restroom behaviour lol. I told her at home, I don't care if nobody lives with her, get use to the idea of SITTING DOWN!!
I do have to admit one thing though. When we were traveling, there was no rest stop in sight and we had to pull over and run into the wooded area. Advantage: since nobody was looking, I could get away with standing up. Hey... it's an emergency and I don't feel like sitting on prickly things...lol
I'm a cisgendered man and this post is unrelated to the very few times I've privately cross-dressed: I usually used to sit down when urinating. There's a smaller risk of accidentally hosing down the floor that way. When I was younger, I wasn't too good at aiming and I came up with that excellent solution. It became a habit. Although I've started standing up again recently without having the problems I used to. At the moment (not this particular moment, though!), I just sit or stand depending on what I end up doing at the time. :)

It isn't really important but I felt like sharing for some reason. :)

[BreeIsMe]

I am sort of like Delilah,
Although initially, one is scared about "etiquette" of a women's rest room, after the first couple of times, its no big deal. I have used women's rest rooms all over and in several cities across the country with no problem. Think of how strange it would be if a person appearing to be a woman would walk into a men's room. That would be kind of difficult and would open one self up to harrassment. Since as many have pointed out that stalls are relatively semi-private, it really doesn't matter. However, as Marie mentioned, there are perverts, etc who are not real transgendered women who use the issue to go into women's rest rooms with mirrors, etc and try to watch others (why I have no idea). This gives all of the rest of us a bad name.....

The issue of a locker room is different. I will not use one until after SRS surgery as I do think it is not the same as a rest room. There are many ways and places to change (for instance you can change at home, in a unisex single bathroom, etc) so that using a locker room is relatively unnecessary. The one exception which I have no answer to is the "spa" I have wanted to go to a day spa, for instance, and have massages, have my nails done, etc. but I cannot at this point because I would not think that my using the changing/locker area would be acceptable. I am disappointed in this situation but understand it (and it saves me the money I might otherwise spent!!! LOL).

The scariest thing of all are some of the comments made on Marie's site. People clearly show they are ignorant of transgendered people and their feelings and real situation. I don't know if that will ever change.

Anyway, I have had no problems with the "restroom" problem and don't anticipate any....


and by the way, I ALWAYS sit down to pee.....what girl wouldn't????????

one last comment about the law itself and men walking into women's locker rooms....
transgendered women generally seek counselling and in order to have SRS you need to live full-time as a woman. In addition, my therapist ( and I believe probably all others) will provide you with a letter saying you are in therapy and are transgendered. Also, physicians who provide hormones will provide you with a letter saying you are "hormononally female" These types of validating documents will not exist with perverts who want to walk in to see women changing clothes. This provides an "out" for the health clubs as lacking this documentation, one could be considered still male only.

Also, a "family" changing area can certainly be designated for transgendered people's use and I suspect that most transgendered people would be sensitive to these issues and have no problems using such facilities.



Bree

[nothings5d]

I'm in class right now so I don't have time to fully read all the comments, but some of what I've read kind of disturbs me. The people against the comments say that they don't want a transgendered woman in the restroom with their wives or daughters, but they don't say that they want them to use the men's room either. I would bet they would get more freaked out by that than finding out there was a transgendered woman in the women's restroom. So where do they expect them to go? Pun not intended...

[diB4u]

Well what we cant go down is the road of seperate ie like black and white segregation of the 1950's.


Bathrooms or rest rooms, should all have indivdual cubicles with locks on the door.

I wouldnt have a problem if a generic woman, or a Transgendered individual uses the toilet next to me... Everyone needs to pee lol....

As regards to changing clothes into a swimming costume and showering... Ugh that should be individual.. I dont want anyone looking at me lol... And besides they probably have to because young girls have access to the public changing areas and that should cover issues regarding child protection.