Why does religion forbid homosexuals (Christianity, islam, etc.)?

[parkerbi]

Why does religion forbid homosexuals (Christianity, islam, etc.) If they are really born like this??
I mean... It says it in both the koran and the bible that homosexuals do not go 2 heaven. This tells us that god dosnt like homosexuals. If its true then why did he create them!? I also talked 2 a priest and he said that homosexuals dont go to heaven.:three:

[anne27]

I saw a really kewl sign online the other day.

"If God didn't make homosexuals there wouldn't be any."

[Nisse]

What I remember from the bible, is that someone, moses or some other profit, was criticizing men for "burning in lust to each other" or something. I guess according to the bible, sex is for reproduction. And when having gay sex, you are just enjoying it but not making babies. I don't think the bible think's that is worse then any other heterosexual whoring. Like, giving blowjobs or using condoms.
It's like any other sin. But people seem to condemn that sin more then others.

That's what I think.

[Uneedhands]

Why does religion forbid homosexuals (Christianity, islam, etc.) If they are really born like this??
I mean... It says it in both the koran and the bible that homosexuals do not go 2 heaven. This tells us that god dosnt like homosexuals. If its true then why did he create them!? I also talked 2 a priest and he said that homosexuals dont go to heaven.:three:

Think about that ....the bible/koran...(whatever book about the same god) being the WORD OF GOD says you will go to hell for it, yet you still believe their god created you. "This tells us that god dosnt like homosexuals. If its true then why did he create them!?" I think it's pathetic. That bullshit is full of holes, and they often rewrite the word of god when the times change to suite their expansion and brainwashing needs. If you need a god be a pagan, their's one for everyone and they usually don't care what goes in your mouth. God is going to burn you anyway. I wish I could live long enough to see the day humanity evolves and leaves superstition and blind faith behind, but for now we are the minority.

[Skater Boy]

I've often toyed with the idea of creating MY OWN religion. It would take the best parts (if any) from existing religions, and add a few more of my own devising. Any takers? Suggestions? Maybe we can all chip in and create it together? :)

[TaylorMade]

Think about that ....the bible/koran...(whatever book about the same god) being the WORD OF GOD says you will go to hell for it, yet you still believe their god created you. "This tells us that god dosnt like homosexuals. If its true then why did he create them!?" I think it's pathetic. That bullshit is full of holes, and they often rewrite the word of god when the times change to suite their expansion and brainwashing needs. If you need a god be a pagan, their's one for everyone and they usually don't care what goes in your mouth. God is going to burn you anyway. I wish I could live long enough to see the day humanity evolves and leaves superstition and blind faith behind, but for now we are the minority.

Wow... thanks. You sound just as discriminatory and offensive as those you rail against.

Nice. Job.

Anyhow...

Religion forbids a lot of things that occur naturally between people as a part of meeting the standards the divinity sets in order to show devotion, maintain relationship, forge spiritual growth ,etc. It's meant to be a test to show how much you love said Divinity. All religions demand something of it's adherents- - for some, it's easy, for others, it's damn near impossible.

I'm Christian, and when I'm asked that question, I'm gonna be honest- my usual answer is- "I don't know." And last time I checked. . .you are allowed an "I don't know". And besides... admitting you don't know can be the beginning of knowledge. (That is something I saw not just in the Bible, but in a book on Buhddist thought as well)

*Taylor*

[coyotedude]

I think there are many reasons why the monotheistic religions of Asia Minor shy away from homosexuality (or any other deviation from straight sex).

For one thing, they feared sex, period. Sex is powerful - one of the most powerful drivers in all of human experience, rivaling hunger, thirst, and the instinct for survival. And sex was mysterious - the unknown and unknowable. Hell, sex is mysterious to us today, with all our scientific knowledge. How the hell do you expect people to figure it out two, three, four thousand years ago?

And like all humanity across the ages, they feared those who were different. Because sex is so powerful, our sexual identities and assumptions are powerful. And we who are not straight challenge these deeply held identities and assumptions of people who are straight merely by walking the good earth among them.

Many straight people are uncomfortable with homosexuality and other deviations from the sexual "norm" simply because it just feels wrong to them. The idea of a man having sex with another man, or a woman having sex with another woman, simply feels unnatural to them. As unnatural, I might add, as sex with a woman might feel to a gay man.

I might also note that survival was much more of a struggle than it is today. Today, we talk about the population crisis and the need to slow birth rates. Back then, procreation was a sacred duty in large part because children equated to social security. You needed the new generations to take care of the old. But you had to procreate a lot, because there was no penicillin or other drugs that helped your children survive. So if you didn't procreate, well, you weren't living up to your end of the social contract (although there were exceptions, such as priests and nuns and monks in later years).

Also, because sex is so powerful, sex gets us in trouble all the time. That's as true for people 4000 years ago as it does today. So it would be only natural for religion and society to offer rules and laws to control sexual behavior, like they did (and still do) for any other behavior in the human realm. The problem, of course, involves who writes the rules. And hell, that's a problem even today in the most progressive of societies!

And I've likely only scratched the surface.

The challenge today, of course, is for people of religious belief to come to terms with the unknowing and unknowable. And while it is incredibly difficult, it is by no means impossible. Religions are living things, and they grow and change and evolve as much as any other human institution. (Even if religions don't like to admit it.) The Christianity of today is not the Christianity of 1000 years ago, and it sure as hell isn't the Christianity of Christ. Religious thought and belief have changed as our understandings of the world have changed. But, of course, change is scary as hell for anyone - believer or atheist. It's a human trait to fear change.

*NOTE: We're talking strictly about one trunk of religious thought and belief here. Hate to break it to you, but Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are NOT the only religious traditions that grace (or curse) the world today. If you want to make blanket statements condemning religion as a whole, you should at the least include the other two of the "big 5" traditions (Hinduism and Buddhism) in your analysis. And even then, remember that the big 5 don't represent all religious viewpoints and all spiritual traditions.

Peace

[TrimBeardHairyBod]

A most thought-provoking post, Coyotedude. Well done!

You touched on the subject of control. I have always felt that religion (as opposed to individual 'faith') is more about control / domination than about interceding between man and his Creator. And how convenient that the gay / bi element is a minority in the population at large.

[coyotedude]

A most thought-provoking post, Coyotedude. Well done!

You touched on the subject of control. I have always felt that religion (as opposed to individual 'faith') is more about control / domination than about interceding between man and his Creator. And how convenient that the gay / bi element is a minority in the population at large.

Why, thank you! And I think you've got a point there re: control and the minority - sigh....

One of the oddest things about religion and spirituality to me is how they can bring out both the best and the worst in us. They drove Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi as much as they drove the Crusades and the religious wars and persecutions of 16th and 17th century Europe. But then, maybe it's not so odd - maybe it's simply the difference between religion and spirituality.

Don't know why your post made me think of that, but it did....

Peace

[TrimBeardHairyBod]

Don't know why your post made me think of that, but it did....

I do have my uses, you know....

As I see it, spirituality and religion are two separate entities. My own admittedly controversial view on the subject is that (some sort of) faith is innate in humans whereas religion is definitely a man-made evil.

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

As a bible believing gal, and one who struggles fiercely with this topic, here is my point of view.

First off my heart goes out to you, because for some of us this issue is huge in our eyes. There is nothing worse then trying to live your life fearing that it might cause you damnation. Im one of those people. I was raised to believe that same sex relationships are an abomination to God. What a burden to carry when you prefer the same sex , like I do.

As far as scripture goes, I know what it says about Gods vision, which is for us to be fruitful and multiply. It wasn't Gods plan for us to sexually attracted to the same sex therefore its not carrying out his will. Which I believe is the sole basis of concern and why this particular sin seems to be more popular when it comes to christains placing judgment on us. If you are looking for actual scripture check these out for reference ( Romans 1:18-32 , 1 Corinthians 6 : 9-20, 1 Timothy 1: 9-11 )

Along with these scriptures that point out our sexual immoralities however are a bunch of other sins carried out by most people and most christains - murders, adulterers , thieves , liars , drunks , idolaters, the list goes on....
The bible states are body is not our own, but Gods and to treat it as a temple. So I guess in essence were not to do these things, if we have we ask for forgiveness and not do it again. For most, like myself, its just to hard to do. Most christians believe we are living in the end times, and that the amount of wickedness in the world today is getting greater. The amount of prophecy predicted taking place right in front of our eyes. Which is the root of my struggle, I feel like I need to change my ways, but I keep going back to my old ways. So much more pleasurable. Good luck to you.

[Uneedhands]

Wow... thanks. You sound just as discriminatory and offensive as those you rail against.

Nice. Job.

Anyhow...

Religion forbids a lot of things that occur naturally between people as a part of meeting the standards the divinity sets in order to show devotion, maintain relationship, forge spiritual growth ,etc. It's meant to be a test to show how much you love said Divinity. All religions demand something of it's adherents- - for some, it's easy, for others, it's damn near impossible.

I'm Christian, and when I'm asked that question, I'm gonna be honest- my usual answer is- "I don't know." And last time I checked. . .you are allowed an "I don't know". And besides... admitting you don't know can be the beginning of knowledge. (That is something I saw not just in the Bible, but in a book on Buhddist thought as well)

*Taylor*

"Wow... thanks. You sound just as discriminatory and offensive as those you rail against."

Who christians? So you agree that they are discriminatory and offensive, good; I hope they're offended. If you are ...too bad. My thoughts are mine, and just as your religeon has the right to brainwash people, I have a right to express my opinion with hope of enlightening people. They are the discriminatory and offensive by my sensibility. I always have, and always will stand against (especially the monotheistic) religeon. It's war. So many people like you just buy in, then just throw your hands in the air and say "I don't know" when the shit hits the fan, then turn around and defend it. Just remember: by your gods word, your going to hell, will you still pray down there? You are right in that the lack of knowledge CAN lead to gaining knowledge provided the participants are not APATHETIC and are capable of properly conducting research; but there is no knowledge in religeon, that's not what it's about. The bible doesn't teach how to learn, it teaches how to pray, and tells a bunch of vague bullshit stories that have nothing to do with learning and knowledge.
Those I "rail" against have done nothing good. It's a destructive and perverted force that is destroying everything beautiful about human culture, and individuality. Why should I beleive that some jew in the middle east died for my sins(?) 2 1/2 thousand years ago, when this religeon is responsible for cultural destruction through the razing of native temples (in my ancestral land as well as many other places), genocide, forced marriage, public torture, fear, intimidation, brainwashing, starvation, and suffering in general... Why shouldn't I put out a call to arms against them?! Look how easy it is to just whip up your own version of "dogs word" the bible, and using native festivities and rituals, incorporating them and blending their heathen word with the word of god to CONTROL YOU! ....and get your money so they don't have to work. Because times change, they need a religeon with no integrity of it's own; highjacking rituals (easter, christmas, halloween...), and using food to brainwash the poor and hungry "heathens" they look down upon. Another point: If Judeo/Christian "spirituality" is so god damn good for the soul, then why are so many of their priests fucking your kids? I've never heard of a druid doing that, but they don't go to hell to suffer for eternity just for having sex. I'll say it over and over: The world will be a much better place when we are no longer dominated by superstitious fools.

[Uneedhands]

As a bible believing gal, and one who struggles fiercely with this topic, here is my point of view.

First off my heart goes out to you, because for some of us this issue is huge in our eyes. There is nothing worse then trying to live your life fearing that it might cause you damnation. Im one of those people. I was raised to believe that same sex relationships are an abomination to God. What a burden to carry when you prefer the same sex , like I do.

As far as scripture goes, I know what it says about Gods vision, which is for us to be fruitful and multiply. It wasn't Gods plan for us to sexually attracted to the same sex therefore its not carrying out his will. Which I believe is the sole basis of concern and why this particular sin seems to be more popular when it comes to christains placing judgment on us. If you are looking for actual scripture check these out for reference ( Romans 1:18-32 , 1 Corinthians 6 : 9-20, 1 Timothy 1: 9-11 )

Along with these scriptures that point out our sexual immoralities however are a bunch of other sins carried out by most people and most christains - murders, adulterers , thieves , liars , drunks , idolaters, the list goes on....
The bible states are body is not our own, but Gods and to treat it as a temple. So I guess in essence were not to do these things, if we have we ask for forgiveness and not do it again. For most, like myself, its just to hard to do. Most christians believe we are living in the end times, a The nd that the amount of wickedness in the world today is getting greater.amount of prophecy predicted taking place right in front of our eyes. Which is the root of my struggle, I feel like I need to change my ways, but I keep going back to my old ways. So much more pleasurable. Good luck to you.


"...if we have we ask for forgiveness".
-There you go, don't think about it 'till your dying, then ask for forgiveness, presto heaven awaits.

"There is nothing worse then trying to live your life fearing that it might cause you damnation."
-One word: FEAR. fear of god. So you live in a state of fear, not enlightenment?

"the amount of wickedness in the world today is getting greater"
If that's true, so is the population. I think the "wickedness" is in each of us, sometimes it comes out. More people = more comming out. It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure that one out 2000 yrs ago. What about the wickedness perpetrated by the "hands" of your asshole god. If we all die in war because of this shit with the western vs. eastern conflict over religeon, oil, world domination... then it will be the monotheistic religeons involved who brought about their own profecies and the demise of everyone else around them.

[TaylorMade]

"Wow... thanks. You sound just as discriminatory and offensive as those you rail against."

Who christians? So you agree that they are discriminatory and offensive, good; I hope they're offended. If you are ...too bad. My thoughts are mine, and just as your religeon has the right to brainwash people, I have a right to express my opinion with hope of enlightening people. They are the discriminatory and offensive by my sensibility. I always have, and always will stand against (especially the monotheistic) religeon. It's war. So many people like you just buy in, then just throw your hands in the air and say "I don't know" when the shit hits the fan, then turn around and defend it. Just remember: by your gods word, your going to hell, will you still pray down there? You are right in that the lack of knowledge CAN lead to gaining knowledge provided the participants are not APATHETIC and are capable of properly conducting research; but there is no knowledge in religeon, that's not what it's about. The bible doesn't teach how to learn, it teaches how to pray, and tells a bunch of vague bullshit stories that have nothing to do with learning and knowledge.
Those I "rail" against have done nothing good. It's a destructive and perverted force that is destroying everything beautiful about human culture, and individuality. Why should I beleive that some jew in the middle east died for my sins(?) 2 1/2 thousand years ago, when this religeon is responsible for cultural destruction through the razing of native temples (in my ancestral land as well as many other places), genocide, forced marriage, public torture, fear, intimidation, brainwashing, starvation, and suffering in general... Why shouldn't I put out a call to arms against them?! Look how easy it is to just whip up your own version of "dogs word" the bible, and using native festivities and rituals, incorporating them and blending their heathen word with the word of god to CONTROL YOU! ....and get your money so they don't have to work. Because times change, they need a religeon with no integrity of it's own; highjacking rituals (easter, christmas, halloween...), and using food to brainwash the poor and hungry "heathens" they look down upon. Another point: If Judeo/Christian "spirituality" is so god damn good for the soul, then why are so many of their priests fucking your kids? I've never heard of a druid doing that, but they don't go to hell to suffer for eternity just for having sex. I'll say it over and over: The world will be a much better place when we are no longer dominated by superstitious fools.

Not just Christians... my post covered things that can be found in most religous traditions. I was thinking of Asatru, and Zorastrianism and Ba'hai (sp) as well as my own tradition when I posted.

Offending them isn't going to change their minds. If anything else, your abuse makes them even more determined to hold onto the parts of their beliefs that hurt others. I am trying to hold onto what makes me good... hold onto what has made me strong... hold onto what has given me love and hold onto what has held me together. From your rant, you focus on then negatives solely and don't think about the positives that religon has given the world. Slavery in the US was ended in part of the efforts of people of faith. Jews were hidden from the holocaust by atheist as well as Christian alike. Deitrich Bonehoffer, Martin Luther King (whose birthday we celebrate today), Corrie Ten Boom, and other workers of good deeds of ALL religious persuasions are part of what you seek to throw out.

I found this article (http://www.cracked.com/article_15663_god-fuse-10-things-christians-atheists-can-agree-on.html) a semi-humorous way of making my point.

If there is anything I have learned is that being judgmental is endemic to human nature. . .and if we lose religon, all we would gain is an even more capricious system to exclude and denigrate as your repeated insults to people of faith have shown. I respect your atheism. I do not agree with it, but it is your right to be as such, is it not? Just as I respect your atheism, please respect my faith. I wouldn't call you an asshole for what you believe...so please do not call the Deity in whom I believe such. All I want is a little mutual respect here.

*Taylor*

[Uneedhands]

Not just Christians... my post covered things that can be found in most religous traditions. I was thinking of Asatru, and Zorastrianism and Ba'hai (sp) as well as my own tradition when I posted.

Offending them isn't going to change their minds. If anything else, your abuse makes them even more determined to hold onto the parts of their beliefs that hurt others. I am trying to hold onto what makes me good... hold onto what has made me strong... hold onto what has given me love and hold onto what has held me together. From your rant, you focus on then negatives solely and don't think about the positives that religon has given the world. Slavery in the US was ended in part of the efforts of people of faith. Jews were hidden from the holocaust by atheist as well as Christian alike. Deitrich Bonehoffer, Martin Luther King (whose birthday we celebrate today), Corrie Ten Boom, and other workers of good deeds of ALL religious persuasions are part of what you seek to throw out.

I found this article (http://www.cracked.com/article_15663_god-fuse-10-things-christians-atheists-can-agree-on.html) a semi-humorous way of making my point.

If there is anything I have learned is that being judgmental is endemic to human nature. . .and if we lose religon, all we would gain is an even more capricious system to exclude and denigrate. The human being that seeks to eradicate a system only sees his own utopia without consideration for anyone else. All I am saying is... hold onto what you believe and I will respect it, but don't you dare insult my own belief.

*Taylor*

Well your system of belief is going to be responsible for the TOTAL ANNIHILATION OF MY CULTURE ... FOREVER. and I don't look toward a utopia. I know that is not possible. Does god consider anyone else? ...we already established that it doesn't. In my Utopia everyone would take responsibility for their own actions, but I know damn well that will never happen. So it's that easy to "insult" a good god fearing christian is it? I will respect whatever I want. I don't care if you can't handle it. What are you going to do?

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

"...if we have we ask for forgiveness".
-There you go, don't think about it 'till your dying, then ask for forgiveness, presto heaven awaits.

"There is nothing worse then trying to live your life fearing that it might cause you damnation."
-One word: FEAR. fear of god. So you live in a state of fear, not enlightenment?

"the amount of wickedness in the world today is getting greater"
If that's true, so is the population. I think the "wickedness" is in each of us, sometimes it comes out. More people = more comming out. It wouldn't have taken a genius to figure that one out 2000 yrs ago. What about the wickedness perpetrated by the "hands" of your asshole god. If we all die in war because of this shit with the western vs. eastern conflict over religeon, oil, world domination... then it will be the monotheistic religeons involved who brought about their own profecies and the demise of everyone else around them.

I would have no problem whatsover explaining my views, but not with someone such as yourself who has no respect for anyone elses views then your own. Your rude and malicously aggressive in your posts and I dont care for your derogitory remarks. Play nice and people might enjoy talking with you.

[TaylorMade]

Well your system of belief is going to be responsible for the TOTAL ANNIHILATION OF MY CULTURE ... FOREVER. and I don't look toward a utopia. I know that is not possible. Does god consider anyone else? ...we already established that it doesn't. In my Utopia everyone would take responsibility for their own actions, but I know damn well that will never happen. So it's that easy to "insult" a good god fearing christian is it? I will respect whatever I want. I don't care if you can't handle it. What are you going to do?

You may have established that in your own mind. . .but your words leave alot to be desired if I were to reconsider my faith. I admit I'm discussing to further my knowledge of what others believe. What is your reason?

Because I'm here to learn, I would like to be respected, just as I am trying to respect you. Last time I checked, that's how dialogues opened up and things got done and people got to understand one another...wether to compromise or agree to disagree.

I really want to like you because we discussed some really cool things in private and that does make you interesting to me... that plus the fact that you're simply another human being makes you worthy of my respect. Is what I believe so odious to you that you cannot, at the very least, acknowledge that my own respect should be returned?

If it can...cool, maybe we can discuss your objections calmly and rationally and I'll see if I can answer them as best as I can.

If not, I'll...wipe my sandals off and move on. I really would have loved to understand where you're coming from, but I'm not gonna endure disrespect to do it.

*Taylor*

[proseros]

Well-

Please excuse me for exposing here, my more crude and apathetic side.

Yet to address the question this thread raises directly-

Who knows? Who gives a shit?

You might as well be asking why the sky is blue or why the largest mammal on Earth eats plankton. Who knows? Who gives a shit?

Of course I'm being sardonically facetious; but the fact of the matter is I can think of a HELL of a lot WORSE THINGS people can do-and have done-with their lives, and to others. and none of which have anything to do with sex (David Carradine's detached monolouge about how the simplest of gestures wrought a war against Buddhist Monks of Shaolin (Kill Bill Vol.II) is a perfect example).

I'm not going to get into the Ecclesial sociopolitics of all of this because it certainly doesn't change the fact that our societies are becoming more and more polyamorous and that heterosexuality and monogamy itself are really perpetually disintegrating "traditions" which have proven themselves biologically (and economically) impractical-never mind religon, and as far as that goes-and back to the question again-

You might as well be talking about the founders of the Constitution without talking about the fact that some of those same who wrote it, owned slaves.

I take this as analogy only to point out that what religon says or forbids and how people actually lived-if we take the WHOLE Bible and the real social history of it into consideration-are two different things. Once again, I'm not going there. Do the research for yourself:

"Kin ya help an ol' alter boy fadda?"
Subway vagrant in "The Exocist" to Father Damien Karris

And if you didn't understand that particular scene you need to watch that movie again-because it explains exactly what gives Pazuzu (the Demon) liscense to mess with Merrin (And makes this clear during the exorcism).

I doubt that Pai Mei ever gave a damned if the Shaolin Temple turned out to be a queer camp.

I doubt that God really cares who anyone is having sex with.
There are just, a lot worse things...

[TaylorMade]

Some days, I believe that too,with a twist though... Most of the time, I don't think about this question... I worry more about car payments or moving or needed things, what I'm gonna eat today-- kind of the other side to the "there are worse things" argument you present.

If we're to be patterned after the divine... I'm inclined to think He/She doesn't worry about these questions we beat ourselves silly over.

I know it sounds like I didn't get your post, prospero, but I did...just took it to the flip side of the coin, that's all.

*Taylor*

[Bluebiyou]

Most religions put down homosexuality for a few reasons:
Based on the "we and those like us, are the good guys; those different than us are the bad guys" central ethic of nearly every civilization, minorities were usually if not often discriminated against.
Plus, it wouldn't take many instances of adult hetero men involuntarily receiving homosexual sex to alienate it as entirely evil.
Indeed, as savage and awful as it sounds, it is true as Hitler said, that nothing unites a people like a common hatred. Given a small but certain percentage of every population to be homosexual, it guarantees a perpetual social pariah.
Books like the bible are developed holistically. Encompassing faith, nature, history, and medicine. Look at the bible regarding skin conditions. Skin conditions have nothing to do with faith.

Of course, homosexuality has nothing to do with faith, or vice versa.

[TaylorMade]

Most religions put down homosexuality for a few reasons:
Based on the "we and those like us, are the good guys; those different than us are the bad guys" central ethic of nearly every civilization, minorities were usually if not often discriminated against.
Plus, it wouldn't take many instances of adult hetero men involuntarily receiving homosexual sex to alienate it as entirely evil.
Indeed, as savage and awful as it sounds, it is true as Hitler said, that nothing unites a people like a common hatred. Given a small but certain percentage of every population to be homosexual, it guarantees a perpetual social pariah.
Books like the bible are developed holistically. Encompassing faith, nature, history, and medicine. Look at the bible regarding skin conditions. Skin conditions have nothing to do with faith.

Of course, homosexuality has nothing to do with faith, or vice versa.

I could kiss you for the perfection of that answer.

*Taylor*

[Uneedhands]

I would have no problem whatsover explaining my views, but not with someone such as yourself who has no respect for anyone elses views then your own. Your rude and malicously aggressive in your posts and I dont care for your derogitory remarks. Play nice and people might enjoy talking with you.

-Don't bother, I respect people not all opinions rudeness is my nature. Maliciously aggressive hmmmm...sounds sexy. I don't care what you don't care for. I think for myself, and I'm entitled to my opinion. I didn't attack you personally.


You may have established that in your own mind. . .but your words leave alot to be desired if I were to reconsider my faith. I admit I'm discussing to further my knowledge of what others believe. What is your reason?

Because I'm here to learn, I would like to be respected, just as I am trying to respect you. Last time I checked, that's how dialogues opened up and things got done and people got to understand one another...wether to compromise or agree to disagree.

I really want to like you because we discussed some really cool things in private and that does make you interesting to me... that plus the fact that you're simply another human being makes you worthy of my respect. Is what I believe so odious to you that you cannot, at the very least, acknowledge that my own respect should be returned?

If it can...cool, maybe we can discuss your objections calmly and rationally and I'll see if I can answer them as best as I can.

If not, I'll...wipe my sandals off and move on. I really would have loved to understand where you're coming from, but I'm not gonna endure disrespect to do it.

*Taylor*

I'm not playing tug-o'-war with your faith. Established in my own mind? ...there are mountains of evidence to back my claims. If you are unaware of your church's atrocities in the name of expansion, then my belief that your religeon favors ignorance over knowledge is supported.
My reason is to have my say. I am determined to throw a wrench into the wheel of your religeon whenever possible.
You as a person are respected. I have'nt said anything to purposly insult you personally, but religeon tends to breed zealots who can't handle radical opinions against them. Your not one of those are you?
I am rational, but what does rationality have to do with religeon? It's the most irrational school of thought in our society, blind faith is irrational. So if I directly "disrespected" you; I'm calling you on it. How? I admit I have no respect for your god, I hate him. Oh no... did I just say the forbiden word? I forgot god gave me that emotion so that I could deny myself of it, and become insane. I HATE god. ...and it feels really good, because I know I'm right.

[proseros]

Most religions put down homosexuality for a few reasons:
Based on the "we and those like us, are the good guys; those different than us are the bad guys" central ethic of nearly every civilization, minorities were usually if not often discriminated against.
Plus, it wouldn't take many instances of adult hetero men involuntarily receiving homosexual sex to alienate it as entirely evil.
Indeed, as savage and awful as it sounds, it is true as Hitler said, that nothing unites a people like a common hatred. Given a small but certain percentage of every population to be homosexual, it guarantees a perpetual social pariah.
Books like the bible are developed holistically. Encompassing faith, nature, history, and medicine. Look at the bible regarding skin conditions. Skin conditions have nothing to do with faith.

Of course, homosexuality has nothing to do with faith, or vice versa.

Uhm Hm...

Pick your bogeyman...

[Uneedhands]

Taylor ....you have a false Idol for an avatar. One that the church says is obscene and evil, and your on a bisexual forum. Why do you go to church or believe that crap?

[Bluebiyou]

Uneedhands,
... be careful how you word your stuff. I can try to see how you asked that question without being mean to Taylor, but it isn't easy to see it that way.
Hell, I'm Catholic.
If you want to take pot shots, take 'em at me.
Taylor's nice.

..Wishing you peace, love, and lots of screaming orgasms...
Blue

[TaylorMade]

Taylor ....you have a false Idol for an avatar. One that the church says is obscene and evil, and your on a bisexual forum. Why do you go to church or believe that crap?

Diana? Did you read my profile as to why I have her there? I do not worship her, I merely use her as a symbol of an aspect of my interpersonal relations.

Why do I go to church? Because I love God. I love Him because He loved me, despite my sin... all sin is the the same in God's eyes. The liar is the bigot is the murderer... If I was not going to hell for being bisexual, I would be going for lying or envy. But, I believe Christ died to forgive this. The exaggeration and caste-making of sin is how man thinks...and I'm not letting that get in the way of the relationship He and I have.

What I believe isn't "crap". It's part of who I am. It became real to me as I read the Bible and grew in my faith. It made my relationship to God real, and things make more sense in my eyes. Not everything, but enlightenment isn't a 30 minutes or less kind of job.

If it doesn't make sense to you, I understand... like many things about being bisexual would make no sense to a gay or straight person...many things about Christianity may not make sense to someone who isn't a part of that tradition.

*Taylor*

[Long Duck Dong]

the bible never mentioned god disliking homosexuality until just only a century ago....

there was not terms for homosexuality when the bible was originally written

as I have said many times.... the bible is a book of words.....but people give it power ......in the same way that people read stuff online and say * hey thats true therefore I have the right to attack and flame others *

the bible has been rewritten, edited and changed so many times by man...and is still called the word of god......I am curious what god says about the bible now

[innaminka]

The word of GOD?

Just look at who wrote the Bible and for what reason.
It is nothing more tha a history text justifying certain historical actions, (OT) edited and completed just after the Maccabean revolt.
The NT is a biographical using sources written a generation after the fact and scrupulously edited through the ages to create a religion which enables power and control.

[MarieDelta]

the bible has been rewritten, edited and changed so many times by man...and is still called the word of god......I am curious what god says about the bible now

Me too LDD, me too

[Uneedhands]

Uneedhands,
... be careful how you word your stuff. I can try to see how you asked that question without being mean to Taylor, but it isn't easy to see it that way.
Hell, I'm Catholic.
If you want to take pot shots, take 'em at me.
Taylor's nice.

..Wishing you peace, love, and lots of screaming orgasms...
Blue

I'm not "taking potshots" at anyone. I'm sure Taylor is nice. But I'm not censoring myself, I say crap because thats what I think. I am careful how I word things. Taylor the person is respected as such. I "say what I mean and say it mean" without personal disrespect intended.

[Skater Boy]

Heather... if you believe in God, then don't let the comments of others here destroy that belief.

BUT, if you take that belief seriously, you owe it to yourself to question every aspect of it, and ensure that it stands up to your own scrutiny.

As for the Bible... it was written by men, and consequently its contents cannot be guaranteed as accurate (or impartial) in any way. This DOESN'T mean that God ISN'T real. It just means that some of the sources relating to him may not be wholly reliable.

Again, YOU decide.

[coyotedude]

-Don't bother, I respect people not all opinions rudeness is my nature. Maliciously aggressive hmmmm...sounds sexy. I don't care what you don't care for. I think for myself, and I'm entitled to my opinion. I didn't attack you personally.

I'm not playing tug-o'-war with your faith. Established in my own mind? ...there are mountains of evidence to back my claims. If you are unaware of your church's atrocities in the name of expansion, then my belief that your religeon favors ignorance over knowledge is supported.
My reason is to have my say. I am determined to throw a wrench into the wheel of your religeon whenever possible.
You as a person are respected. I have'nt said anything to purposly insult you personally, but religeon tends to breed zealots who can't handle radical opinions against them. Your not one of those are you?
I am rational, but what does rationality have to do with religeon? It's the most irrational school of thought in our society, blind faith is irrational. So if I directly "disrespected" you; I'm calling you on it. How? I admit I have no respect for your god, I hate him. Oh no... did I just say the forbiden word? I forgot god gave me that emotion so that I could deny myself of it, and become insane. I HATE god. ...and it feels really good, because I know I'm right.

Uneed, you are most certainly ARE a zealot. You are as much a zealot as any right-wing Christian you despise, and no more rational, either, I might add. You argue from a complete lack of understanding of spirituality - both its strengths and its weaknesses - and your arguments rely on rhetoric and shadings of the truth, not facts and logic.

Has religion been used to justify great evils in this world? Of course! Yet not all great evils have been committed in the name of God. Or have you forgotten that Hitler and Stalin (our favorite bogeymen of the 20th century) were themselves atheists? Yet the regimes of control they introduced were no less sinister or cruel for that. And science (theoretical or applied) provided no counterbalance to the aggressions of the Third Reich (remember eugenics?). So much for the advance of Reason over superstition.

Have great wrongs been done in the name of Christ? Undoubtedly. Yet I ask you this: is the problem with Christ's teachings, or Christ's followers? Did not Christ himself preach "turn the other cheek," "it is harder for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven," or "blessed are the meek"? I personally am not a Christian, and I shake my head every day at those who claim to be so yet are willfully ignorant of Christ's most basic teachings. Yet I don't hold that against Christ.

My own grandfather was beaten as a boy by Christian missionaries for speaking the language of his birth in an Indian boarding school. (Yes, in the 20th century.) Do I hold that against Christ or God? Or do I hold that against the ignorant fools who let their prejudices cloud their vision? Which is more rational, more reasonable?

I remind you that religion as a way of human understanding is but a reflection of our common humanity. Religion has inspired us to both the dark and the light, the good and the bad. Religion gave us the Crusades, the wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the vile stain of anti-Semitism. Today we battle the zealotry of the Wahhabi sect of Islam and our own evangelical movement within modern Christianity. Yet religion and spirituality also have given us Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Archbishop Oscar Romero, Thomas Banyacya and Nicholas Black Elk, the current Dalai Lama and the Buddhist monks who stood against oppression in Myanmar.... I could go on and on. (And yes, I am aware that none of these people were -or are - perfect. Yet they are all the more inspiring, perhaps, because they achieved great things despite their all-too-human flaws.)

Peace

[coyotedude]

Heather... if you believe in God, then don't let the comments of others here destroy that belief.

BUT, if you take that belief seriously, you owe it to yourself to question every aspect of it, and ensure that it stands up to your own scrutiny.

As for the Bible... it was written by men, and consequently its contents cannot be guaranteed as accurate (or impartial) in any way. This DOESN'T mean that God ISN'T real. It just means that some of the sources relating to him may not be wholly reliable.

Again, YOU decide.

Skater, this was well put, dude! ;)

[bohica1]

I called God and he said it was okay.

[Uneedhands]

Diana? Did you read my profile as to why I have her there? I do not worship her, I merely use her as a symbol of an aspect of my interpersonal relations.

Why do I go to church? Because I love God. I love Him because He loved me, despite my sin... all sin is the the same in God's eyes. The liar is the bigot is the murderer... If I was not going to hell for being bisexual, I would be going for lying or envy. But, I believe Christ died to forgive this. The exaggeration and caste-making of sin is how man thinks...and I'm not letting that get in the way of the relationship He and I have.

What I believe isn't "crap". It's part of who I am. It became real to me as I read the Bible and grew in my faith. It made my relationship to God real, and things make more sense in my eyes. Not everything, but enlightenment isn't a 30 minutes or less kind of job.

If it doesn't make sense to you, I understand... like many things about being bisexual would make no sense to a gay or straight person...many things about Christianity may not make sense to someone who isn't a part of that tradition.

*Taylor*

Of course I read it, you know that. But wheather or not you worship it, I'm sure the vatican will definately have something to say about it, most others probably would too. It might as well be a satanic symbol. Using various deitys to represent different aspects of the human condition is exactly what pagans do and is in direct opposition to your all encompassing "my word is final" one-god. It's like spiritual fascism. My family are old fashioned European god fearers mostly. I was forced into Sunday school, I hated it and got kicked out quite easily by my 3 or 4 week. I'm proud of it. Do you really believe all sin is the same? like loving your neighbor to whom your not wed or who is the same sex is to raping your neighbor's child? ...the same?! ...and forgiveness is doled out that cheaply?! one geezers life for generations of rapists to gain entry to the pearly gates? tradition.... Half that christian tradition is not even theirs, it's been highjacked from their enemies, one of which you are using to represent yourself or aspects of whatever.. ... I never attacked YOU personally, you the person are separate from the crap someone wrote millenia ago, so I say again ..."CRAP". You don't have to like it, but thats my opinion.

[HighEnergy]

This is something I've studied at length given I have lots of queer friends who are Christian.

The Old Testament stories of Lot and his visitors is the most famous story. And in Leviticus there is the abomination comment. At that time in history, homosexuality was not understood as an orientation nor in a loving way. Anal sex was used as a way to dominate other men just like dogs do. This is what is abhorred in the bible. Imagine being a straight soldier and being raped by the men of the concurring army. Just as in the Iraqi jail I can't spell a few a couple of years ago, it was used to shame other men. That is abhorant today as it was then.

Paul's epistle mentions it also, the only mention in the New Testament. At THAT time in Christian history, food laws between the orthodox jews, the converted gentiles in a pagan world where most meat in the meat market had been used in a pagen sacrifice ritual, and the eucharist revolving around an agape meal, this was a huge issue, and too hot to handle. Sex was actually less of a big deal to discuss. (Have you seen the HBO series Rome? Case in point.) Attempting to meld the Jewish world with all of their food laws in with the gentiles was quite a struggle. Again, homosexuality as we understand it today was not something understood then. Hell, more than half the planet doesn't seem to understand it NOW! But again, anal sex was still used as a demeaning torture to defeated men and that is what they are forbidding.

[Uneedhands]

Uneed, you are most certainly ARE a zealot. You are as much a zealot as any right-wing Christian you despise, and no more rational, either, I might add. You argue from a complete lack of understanding of spirituality - both its strengths and its weaknesses - and your arguments rely on rhetoric and shadings of the truth, not facts and logic.

Has religion been used to justify great evils in this world? Of course! Yet not all great evils have been committed in the name of God. Or have you forgotten that Hitler and Stalin (our favorite bogeymen of the 20th century) were themselves atheists? Yet the regimes of control they introduced were no less sinister or cruel for that. And science (theoretical or applied) provided no counterbalance to the aggressions of the Third Reich (remember eugenics?). So much for the advance of Reason over superstition.

Have great wrongs been done in the name of Christ? Undoubtedly. Yet I ask you this: is the problem with Christ's teachings, or Christ's followers? Did not Christ himself preach "turn the other cheek," "it is harder for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven," or "blessed are the meek"? I personally am not a Christian, and I shake my head every day at those who claim to be so yet are willfully ignorant of Christ's most basic teachings. Yet I don't hold that against Christ.

My own grandfather was beaten as a boy by Christian missionaries for speaking the language of his birth in an Indian boarding school. (Yes, in the 20th century.) Do I hold that against Christ or God? Or do I hold that against the ignorant fools who let their prejudices cloud their vision? Which is more rational, more reasonable?

I remind you that religion as a way of human understanding is but a reflection of our common humanity. Religion has inspired us to both the dark and the light, the good and the bad. Religion gave us the Crusades, the wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the vile stain of anti-Semitism. Today we battle the zealotry of the Wahhabi sect of Islam and our own evangelical movement within modern Christianity. Yet religion and spirituality also have given us Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Archbishop Oscar Romero, Thomas Banyacya and Nicholas Black Elk, the current Dalai Lama and the Buddhist monks who stood against oppression in Myanmar.... I could go on and on. (And yes, I am aware that none of these people were -or are - perfect. Yet they are all the more inspiring, perhaps, because they achieved great things despite their all-too-human flaws.)

Peace

I'm not left-wing. it's not all right-wing christians I despise. read my post again and get back to me when you know whats going on.

[proseros]

I'm not "taking potshots" at anyone. I'm sure Taylor is nice. But I'm not censoring myself, I say crap because thats what I think. I am careful how I word things. Taylor the person is respected as such. I "say what I mean and say it mean" without personal disrespect intended.

You see and THAT is the whole point (Not to mention what is so beautiful about human potential; the fact that "Hey! I can take a dick in my ass!" And "Hey! You know, I love you. If you love me too, we can always fuck.").

You'd hardly think a Buddhist Monk would miss the slightest nod, regardless how he felt about the Manchu's.

And every peaceful resolve between human hearts a blessing.

More Huggin'. Less Thuggin'.

[bi_curious_caper]

Just a thought, but could it possibly be that if you don't procreate there won't be anyone to carry on the religion or at least keep the numbers high enough to to enanble them to be a major influence on society. If you think about it, most of our sociological pressures are religion based. Anyone who knows what it's like to engage in same sex fun seems to enjoy it and trys it again, many guys who played with their guy friends when they were young don't forget about their experience and years later when they finaly feel secure enough with themselves seek out more of the same.
Freud maintained that bisexuality was a normal part of development. That all of us went through a period of bisexuality and that, in the end, most of us came out heterosexual but that the bisexual phase we traversed remained on some unconscious level, and was dealt with in other ways. Since I am male I think I can safely say that to most us "an orgasm is an orgasm" and to me it does not matter who it comes from, me her or him.
On the matter of Christianity, I watched a very interesting movie over the summer named Zeitgeist, i think it is still available online, and part of it explains Christianity using the Zodiac and other religions which in some ways was a real eyeopener.
Sorry for such a long rant for my first post but I always seem to have alot to say on these subjects.

[coyotedude]

I'm not left-wing. it's not all right-wing christians I despise. read my post again and get back to me when you know whats going on.

Hmmm.... That is a singularly unenlightening response. Especially since I just re-read your posts and see nothing different from my first reading. Of course, I read my own post and couldn't find any reference where I called you left-wing. Odd, that.

Peace

[OcalaCouple683]

I personally live my life the way I want to...I feel that I am my own creator in some ways. I dont think about whats going to happen to me after I die! :bigrin:

[shameless agitator]

Uneed, you are most certainly ARE a zealot. You are as much a zealot as any right-wing Christian you despise, and no more rational, either, I might add. I have to agree here. Being an atheist & extremely anti-religion, you have no idea how much it pains me to do so. Attacks are not an effective way to combat the blindness of religion. If you want to oppose the mandate of blind acceptance & suspension of analytical evaluation that religion demands, then you must make your points through reason & strong logical arguments. Simply calling "god" an asshole and religion crap isn't going to persuade anybody.

[FalconAngel]

Pagan religions don't care what your sexuality is. It's biggest demand is introspection, study and personal growth. If seeking the truth about the world around you and about yourself is too much work, then Paganism is not for you.

We have quite a few people who are Gay or Bi and it makes no difference to any of us.

The gods made us all to be just like things are in nature, so since there is homosexuality and bisexuality in nature, then we must all be natural creatures.

[Uneedhands]

Uneed, you are most certainly ARE a zealot. You are as much a zealot as any right-wing Christian you despise, and no more rational, either, I might add. You argue from a complete lack of understanding of spirituality - both its strengths and its weaknesses - and your arguments rely on rhetoric and shadings of the truth, not facts and logic.

Has religion been used to justify great evils in this world? Of course! Yet not all great evils have been committed in the name of God. Or have you forgotten that Hitler and Stalin (our favorite bogeymen of the 20th century) were themselves atheists? Yet the regimes of control they introduced were no less sinister or cruel for that. And science (theoretical or applied) provided no counterbalance to the aggressions of the Third Reich (remember eugenics?). So much for the advance of Reason over superstition.

Have great wrongs been done in the name of Christ? Undoubtedly. Yet I ask you this: is the problem with Christ's teachings, or Christ's followers? Did not Christ himself preach "turn the other cheek," "it is harder for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven," or "blessed are the meek"? I personally am not a Christian, and I shake my head every day at those who claim to be so yet are willfully ignorant of Christ's most basic teachings. Yet I don't hold that against Christ.

My own grandfather was beaten as a boy by Christian missionaries for speaking the language of his birth in an Indian boarding school. (Yes, in the 20th century.) Do I hold that against Christ or God? Or do I hold that against the ignorant fools who let their prejudices cloud their vision? Which is more rational, more reasonable?

I remind you that religion as a way of human understanding is but a reflection of our common humanity. Religion has inspired us to both the dark and the light, the good and the bad. Religion gave us the Crusades, the wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the vile stain of anti-Semitism. Today we battle the zealotry of the Wahhabi sect of Islam and our own evangelical movement within modern Christianity. Yet religion and spirituality also have given us Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Archbishop Oscar Romero, Thomas Banyacya and Nicholas Black Elk, the current Dalai Lama and the Buddhist monks who stood against oppression in Myanmar.... I could go on and on. (And yes, I am aware that none of these people were -or are - perfect. Yet they are all the more inspiring, perhaps, because they achieved great things despite their all-too-human flaws.)

Peace

I am not a religeous zealot. What's not rational about my opinion? I do so have my own spiratuality which I have been keeping to myself, and is none of your business. Rhetoric and shadings of truth ... like? I can back my statements up.
Are you sure Hitler was an atheist? I know he wasn't Christian.... Eugenics is another pseudoscience used by fairly modern governments to control people and get rid of undesirables ...like you. "And science (theoretical or applied) provided no counterbalance to the aggressions of the Third Reich (remember eugenics?). So much for the advance of Reason over superstition." What are you trying to say predator? Most of hitlers real scientists were prisoners and forced labour.
"Yet I ask you this: is the problem with Christ's teachings, or Christ's followers?" ... both, the teachings deny the natural devopement of a harmoniously spiritual and physical being to create unbalanced followers with rules like -no homos, and no testing the water (pre-marital sex) ....the priests are molesting children and brainwashing the weak. "...Did not Christ himself preach "turn the other cheek..." sounds like Christ was actually one of those perverted masochists... Fuck that! You lay one finger on me and I'll rip your face off. "...it is harder for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven..." Well, I'll be careful I don't work too hard then. "blessed are the meek"? ...All of them? why? Shame on you for not being weak! Burn in hell you hard workers and sharp of wit!
"My own grandfather was beaten as a boy by Christian missionaries for speaking the language of his birth in an Indian boarding school. (Yes, in the 20th century.)" I know all about that, it's the same thing they have been doing for thousands of years. It's called brainwashing. Thanks for the example. Find your own referances of this behavior throughout history in all kinds of different cultures, I'm sure you'll find that it gets worse the farther back you go. "...Do I hold that against Christ or God? Or do I hold that against the ignorant fools who let their prejudices cloud their vision? Which is more rational, more reasonable?..." I know that wasn't a question and I am not an ignorant fool.
"the vile stain of anti-Semitism." What a dramatic choice of words. is it worse than the anti-paganism of the semites? In their day they committed genocide on a regular basis all throughout persia in their quest to eradicate "evil". Look it up. And their still going, look at Isreal. The closest thing in the world today to the fucking SS is the Massad. Those are not religions of tolerance, ask dear old grandad.
"Yet religion and spirituality also have given us Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Archbishop Oscar Romero, Thomas Banyacya and Nicholas Black Elk, the current Dalai Lama and the Buddhist monks who stood against oppression in Myanmar.... I could go on and on....". Sure, did I say every Christian or whatever is a bad guy? ...nor was every nazi.
Now You can try insulting me personally again, or you could spare us all the bullshit and keep it to the topic asshole. I am intitled to my opinion, if you don't like it, choke on it, but you have no clue what kind of person I am. So fuck you.

[wolfcamp]

I am not a religeous zealot. What's not rational about my opinion?

Well, I think one statement a few messages up sums it up pretty well for me.


I HATE god. ...and it feels really good, because I know I'm right.

As for this next part.


Now You can try insulting me personally again, or you could spare us all the bullshit and keep it to the topic asshole. I am intitled to my opinion, if you don't like it, choke on it, but you have no clue what kind of person I am. So fuck you.

I think we all have a pretty good clue now.

[coyotedude]

I have to agree here. Being an atheist & extremely anti-religion, you have no idea how much it pains me to do so. Attacks are not an effective way to combat the blindness of religion. If you want to oppose the mandate of blind acceptance & suspension of analytical evaluation that religion demands, then you must make your points through reason & strong logical arguments. Simply calling "god" an asshole and religion crap isn't going to persuade anybody.

Shameless - I love you!!!!! lol

[shameless agitator]

Shameless - I love you!!!!! lol*Blush* I bet you say that to all the boys :P

[Falke]

Well, my thoughts on this are quite simple. Follow what you feel is right, the religion/non-religion one follows is thier choice and thiers alone. No amount of badgering, preaching, threatening, etc. is going to change ones mind. Problem is, people don't get this and many try and push thier beliefs on others. All sides are guilty of it... Hell, I have even been guilty of this in the past until a friend of mine gave me a figurative smack in the face for it!


Anyhow, live with what you feel is right. As no one is 100% certain of what is going on...that is why it's called faith! ;)

[coyotedude]

I am not a religeous zealot. What's not rational about my opinion? I do so have my own spiratuality which I have been keeping to myself, and is none of your business. Rhetoric and shadings of truth ... like? I can back my statements up.
Are you sure Hitler was an atheist? I know he wasn't Christian.... Eugenics is another pseudoscience used by fairly modern governments to control people and get rid of undesirables ...like you. "And science (theoretical or applied) provided no counterbalance to the aggressions of the Third Reich (remember eugenics?). So much for the advance of Reason over superstition." What are you trying to say predator? Most of hitlers real scientists were prisoners and forced labour.
"Yet I ask you this: is the problem with Christ's teachings, or Christ's followers?" ... both, the teachings deny the natural devopement of a harmoniously spiritual and physical being to create unbalanced followers with rules like -no homos, and no testing the water (pre-marital sex) ....the priests are molesting children and brainwashing the weak. "...Did not Christ himself preach "turn the other cheek..." sounds like Christ was actually one of those perverted masochists... Fuck that! You lay one finger on me and I'll rip your face off. "...it is harder for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven..." Well, I'll be careful I don't work too hard then. "blessed are the meek"? ...All of them? why? Shame on you for not being weak! Burn in hell you hard workers and sharp of wit!
"My own grandfather was beaten as a boy by Christian missionaries for speaking the language of his birth in an Indian boarding school. (Yes, in the 20th century.)" I know all about that, it's the same thing they have been doing for thousands of years. It's called brainwashing. Thanks for the example. Find your own referances of this behavior throughout history in all kinds of different cultures, I'm sure you'll find that it gets worse the farther back you go. "...Do I hold that against Christ or God? Or do I hold that against the ignorant fools who let their prejudices cloud their vision? Which is more rational, more reasonable?..." I know that wasn't a question and I am not an ignorant fool.
"the vile stain of anti-Semitism." What a dramatic choice of words. is it worse than the anti-paganism of the semites? In their day they committed genocide on a regular basis all throughout persia in their quest to eradicate "evil". Look it up. And their still going, look at Isreal. The closest thing in the world today to the fucking SS is the Massad. Those are not religions of tolerance, ask dear old grandad.
"Yet religion and spirituality also have given us Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Archbishop Oscar Romero, Thomas Banyacya and Nicholas Black Elk, the current Dalai Lama and the Buddhist monks who stood against oppression in Myanmar.... I could go on and on....". Sure, did I say every Christian or whatever is a bad guy? ...nor was every nazi.
Now You can try insulting me personally again, or you could spare us all the bullshit and keep it to the topic asshole. I am intitled to my opinion, if you don't like it, choke on it, but you have no clue what kind of person I am. So fuck you.

LMAO.... So I'm insulting you personally, but you're not insulting Taylor or any other Christian personally? Now that's pretty damn funny - or pathetic. You choose.

You may not be ignorant, but you are one hell of a fool. Yes, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. And you are even entitled to be a zealot, if you so choose. But I am entitled to note that your arguments have holes wide enough for a semi truck to drive through. You don't get a free ride any more than I do.

Shading the truth, you ask? Rhetoric, you ask?

Funny, would you please point out to me the specific section where I called you a "religious" zealot? I missed that. Oh, wait, you can't - because it's not in there.

Would you mind telling me in which particular verse of the Bible did Christ order priests to molest children? I think I missed that in Sunday School. Oh, yeah, so did you - because it's not in there.


"...it is harder for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven..." Well, I'll be careful I don't work too hard then.

Hmmm, what makes you think that the poor work less than the rich? The amount of money you have does not equate to the amount of work you do.


"blessed are the meek"? ...All of them? why? Shame on you for not being weak! Burn in hell you hard workers and sharp of wit!

A perfect example of the observation that "Text, without context, is pretext." Not to mention the fact that meek can be defined as "humbly patient or docile, as under provocation from others; gentle; kind" - which has nothing to do with whether or not you're a hard worker or sharp of wit.

And I could go on and on. But I think I've made quite clear that many of your statements don't stand up to simple facts or logic.


Now You can try insulting me personally again, or you could spare us all the bullshit and keep it to the topic asshole.

My, what a wonderfully irrational summary to your clearly irrational diatribe.

I don't expect you to agree with my opinions. Fact is, I learn and grow more from people who disagree with me than from people who agree. It's too bad, however, that assholes like yourself are more interested in throwing bombs and playing bullshit mind games than actually exchanging opinions and learning from one another.

You wanna stop the bullshit? Look in the mirror, my friend.

Oh, and for the record - no way in hell am I interested in fucking you.

[coyotedude]

*Blush* I bet you say that to all the boys :P

Just the cute ones! ;)

[Uneedhands]

I have to agree here. Being an atheist & extremely anti-religion, you have no idea how much it pains me to do so. Attacks are not an effective way to combat the blindness of religion. If you want to oppose the mandate of blind acceptance & suspension of analytical evaluation that religion demands, then you must make your points through reason & strong logical arguments. Simply calling "god" an asshole and religion crap isn't going to persuade anybody.

I did not attack anyone. I typed my opinion. If you don't like it, don't read it. I'm not here to recruit, teach, or attack anyone. I'm here to have my say. Not because I want you to agree, because I have an opinion, and someone asked openly, because everyone thinks that CRAP is all good. Everyone ignores the atrocities comitted by these religions. it happens over and over... throughout history faith based beliefs ignore logic and reasoning. So there is no point reasoning with someone who has faith. God created the Earth with all it's various inhabitants intact about 4000 yrs ago, and placed all those fossils around to test your faith. If thats what someone wants to believe thats their problem. I don't care. In my paleobiology class we talk about it often, Christians still to this day don't believe in evolution; thats ok they'll be left behind anyway.

[BiphobiaFighter]

I have to agree here. Being an atheist & extremely anti-religion, you have no idea how much it pains me to do so. Attacks are not an effective way to combat the blindness of religion. If you want to oppose the mandate of blind acceptance & suspension of analytical evaluation that religion demands, then you must make your points through reason & strong logical arguments. Simply calling "god" an asshole and religion crap isn't going to persuade anybody.
www.fstdt.com shows that logical arguments don't always work either. The site features a collection of quotes from elsewhere on the Internet from fundamentalists. Using logic is better than not, of course. Just that there are people who aren't willing to think through alternate viewpoints or even just to look at reality.

[shameless agitator]

Granted, but not every christian is a fundamentalist/biblical literalist.

[Uneedhands]

LMAO.... So I'm insulting you personally, but you're not insulting Taylor or any other Christian personally? Now that's pretty damn funny - or pathetic. You choose.

You may not be ignorant, but you are one hell of a fool. Yes, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. And you are even entitled to be a zealot, if you so choose. But I am entitled to note that your arguments have holes wide enough for a semi truck to drive through. You don't get a free ride any more than I do.

Shading the truth, you ask? Rhetoric, you ask?

Funny, would you please point out to me the specific section where I called you a "religious" zealot? I missed that. Oh, wait, you can't - because it's not in there.

Would you mind telling me in which particular verse of the Bible did Christ order priests to molest children? I think I missed that in Sunday School. Oh, yeah, so did you - because it's not in there.



Hmmm, what makes you think that the poor work less than the rich? The amount of money you have does not equate to the amount of work you do.



A perfect example of the observation that "Text, without context, is pretext." Not to mention the fact that meek can be defined as "humbly patient or docile, as under provocation from others; gentle; kind" - which has nothing to do with whether or not you're a hard worker or sharp of wit.

And I could go on and on. But I think I've made quite clear that many of your statements don't stand up to simple facts or logic.



My, what a wonderfully irrational summary to your clearly irrational diatribe.

I don't expect you to agree with my opinions. Fact is, I learn and grow more from people who disagree with me than from people who agree. It's too bad, however, that assholes like yourself are more interested in throwing bombs and playing bullshit mind games than actually exchanging opinions and learning from one another.

You wanna stop the bullshit? Look in the mirror, my friend.

Oh, and for the record - no way in hell am I interested in fucking you.

My opinion about an idea was not an attack on any individual. I'm not a fool.
"... But I am entitled to note that your arguments have holes wide enough for a semi truck to drive through. You don't get a free ride any more than I do..." What the fuck are you talking about douchebag. prove it.
show me proof. "...Hmmm, what makes you think that the poor work less than the rich? The amount of money you have does not equate to the amount of work you do..." If you don't understand me try asking instead of assuming, but you are comming across as a moron so I'm not surprised. I'll humour you this much... I didn't say the poor work less, or that the work done always equals any amount of money. If your not understanding me it's because you don't want to. So just fuck off.

[BiphobiaFighter]

Granted, but not every christian is a fundamentalist/biblical literalist.
I know, my comment was only about those who are or are fundamentalists of another religion.

Those people aren't much of a problem in this part of the world. :)

[coyotedude]

My opinion about an idea was not an attack on any individual. I'm not a fool.
"... But I am entitled to note that your arguments have holes wide enough for a semi truck to drive through. You don't get a free ride any more than I do..." What the fuck are you talking about douchebag. prove it.
show me proof. "...Hmmm, what makes you think that the poor work less than the rich? The amount of money you have does not equate to the amount of work you do..." If you don't understand me try asking instead of assuming, but you are comming across as a moron so I'm not surprised. I'll humour you this much... I didn't say the poor work less, or that the work done always equals any amount of money. If your not understanding me it's because you don't want to. So just fuck off.

I've shown you proof, but you adamantly refuse to see. But if you want more proof, let me indulge you.

You claim that you're only attacking ideas, but you call others vile names when your own ideas are criticized.


What the fuck are you talking about douchebag.


but you are comming across as a moron so I'm not surprised

Is this an attack solely on ideas?


So you agree that they are discriminatory and offensive, good; I hope they're offended. If you are ...too bad.

You demand proof, but all you offer in return are half-truths, lies, and distortions out of context.

You claim to be a rational thinker and not a zealot. Yet in your own words, you proudly claim to hate:


I am determined to throw a wrench into the wheel of your religeon whenever possible.


I admit I have no respect for your god, I hate him. Oh no... did I just say the forbiden word? I forgot god gave me that emotion so that I could deny myself of it, and become insane. I HATE god. ...and it feels really good, because I know I'm right.


I always have, and always will stand against (especially the monotheistic) religeon. It's war.

"It's war"? Does that not fit the definition of "zealot": "an excessively zealous person; fanatic"?

You claim to have spirituality:


I do so have my own spiratuality which I have been keeping to myself, and is none of your business.

Yet earlier you railed against the superstition of blind faith:


I wish I could live long enough to see the day humanity evolves and leaves superstition and blind faith behind, but for now we are the minority.

Perhaps you don't equate your own spirituality with superstition and blind faith. But again, your own words:


I always have, and always will stand against (especially the monotheistic) religeon. It's war.

You did not say that you only stood against the monotheistic religion. You may hate the monotheistic religion, but you didn't limit yourself to standing just against that form of religion.

Your words. Your posts.

You're a liar, a hypocrite, and a fool, and I've wasted too much time on you already.

[wolfcamp]

Here's what I think.

The premise is that god gave us faith and reason. Then he (or she) said, "Make a choice between the two, but if you choose wrong you will burn in eternal hell." That is a game that is just too cruel to imagine, and it's a game that I refuse to play.

Now about the original question: Many religious taboos had their roots in some kind of practicality. For example, pork is forbidden in many cultures, and it's not coincidental that pork can easily pass diseases to humans (worms, viruses). Those ancients were pretty smart in some ways.

The taboo against homosexuality probably had some kind of practical roots too, either real or imagined. Picture a hunting and gathering society where the men go on hunting or warring expeditions. Imagine that one of those men was a known homosexual. That probably wouldn't set too well with the wives and girlfriends back at camp. They might go so far as to ask the shaman or priest to prevent him from going, or maybe even go as far as getting him banished from the camp. This was obviously before don't ask, don't tell. :) The shaman would think this a good idea because any behavioral anomaly or oddity might foretell a bad omen, and bring disaster on the tribe.

This is a simplistic example I know, but my point is that I believe the taboo runs far, far back into prehistory, and originally, it probably was up to the shamans and priests to establish the taboos and enforce the rules.

Not all cultures castigate homosexuals. From what I understand, they were generally accepted among many American Indian tribes, and they often had specific roles in those societies.

[coyotedude]

wolfcamp - many of the tribes referred to folks who deviated from the "norm" of sexual orientation as "two spirit" people. In many of the old beliefs (some of which are still believed today), the teaching was that there was a male spirit power and a female spirit power above and beyond our physical plumbing. The notion was that gay men had a much stronger female spirit power than a male spirit power, and vice versa for lesbians.

Of course, beliefs varied among the tribes - you can't just assume that all the tribes believed the same. Worse still, with assimilation came American and European attitudes about sexuality, so that even tribes that were more supportive of diversity in sexual orientation in the old days are less so now. Still, I've participated in gay and lesbian marriage ceremonies (spiritual, not legal) that took their cues from the old ways, so it's not entirely a lost cause!

Peace

[coyotedude]

I know, my comment was only about those who are or are fundamentalists of another religion.

Those people aren't much of a problem in this part of the world. :)

You lucky bastard, you!

(Said lovingly, of course!) lol

Peace

[Uneedhands]

Well, I think one statement a few messages up sums it up pretty well for me.



As for this next part.



I think we all have a pretty good clue now.

WHAT?! instead of quoting me and saying nothing why don't form an idea and a sentance.

[Uneedhands]

I've shown you proof, but you adamantly refuse to see. But if you want more proof, let me indulge you.

You claim that you're only attacking ideas, but you call others vile names when your own ideas are criticized.





Is this an attack solely on ideas?



You demand proof, but all you offer in return are half-truths, lies, and distortions out of context.

You claim to be a rational thinker and not a zealot. Yet in your own words, you proudly claim to hate:







"It's war"? Does that not fit the definition of "zealot": "an excessively zealous person; fanatic"?

You claim to have spirituality:



Yet earlier you railed against the superstition of blind faith:



Perhaps you don't equate your own spirituality with superstition and blind faith. But again, your own words:



You did not say that you only stood against the monotheistic religion. You may hate the monotheistic religion, but you didn't limit yourself to standing just against that form of religion.

Your words. Your posts.

You're a liar, a hypocrite, and a fool, and I've wasted too much time on you already.

Your too fucking slow. I attacked him personally after he called me names personally. Before coyote... I didn't do that

[coyotedude]

Your too fucking slow. I attacked him personally after he called me names personally. Before coyote... I didn't do that

Liar.

Again, your own words from 1/21/2008 at 2:11 pm PST:


Who christians? So you agree that they are discriminatory and offensive, good; I hope they're offended. If you are ...too bad.


So many people like you just buy in, then just throw your hands in the air and say "I don't know" when the shit hits the fan, then turn around and defend it.

From 2:50 pm PST:


So it's that easy to "insult" a good god fearing christian is it? I will respect whatever I want. I don't care if you can't handle it. What are you going to do?

But you never attacked anyone personally? Hypocrite!

My first reply to your posts? 4:55 pm PST. And what I observed was not that you were a "douchebag" or a "moron" or an "asshole", but that your statements certainly ranked up there as "zealotry", despite your claims otherwise.

But I suppose all this is what I get for arguing with a zealot....

[Uneedhands]

Why does your stupid religion condemn Homos ? ...and why are homos here defending it ?! ...
pathetic. weak ... I'm outta here. Fuck you all, burn in your hell.

[goldenfinger]

So far, everything is going to the plan. As long as we have "us and them" life is in balance.Imagine one without the other, day without night, hot without cold pleasure without pain, something only the dead knows. How could we be naughty without the good guys.See, it's all part of the plan. All you have to do, is choose. So choose wisely, will it be boooooooring, or a little exciting. Good luck.:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::bigr in:

Ps, this is a subject you don't want to get sucked into.:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:

[jenny2006]

It's interesting no one has actually wondered whether religions really are against homosexuality. I don't know enough about islam or anything like that, but certainly in Judeo-christian texts (i.e. the bible, torah, etc.), there is absolutely nothing that very definitely says homosexuality is forbidden, in either the old or new testements.

Where it has been interpreted as such it is generally down to rather flimsy translations and in some cases where pure guesses have been made in order to make sense out of the original literal translation from Hebrew (or Greek in the new testament).

I think to really get to the bottom of it, you have to go right back the language religious texts were first written in and translate directly, or it just gets paraphrased and becomes nothing like the original meaning.

In the Hebrew scriptures (most of the old testament) the most often quoted passages are leviticus 18:22, 20:13, Deuteronomy 23:17, and Kings 14: 24, 15;12 and 23:7, and the latter four passages are often used by conservative christians who use the incorrect translation of a word, using homosexuality or sodomites when in fact the correct translation, as written in most other versions, is something like temple prostitutes and nothing to do with homosexuality.

As for Leviticus, both passages translated literally from the Hebrew, say something along the lines of 'and with a man you shall not lay lyings of a woman'. To translate this as many bible versions do as 'homosexuality is an abomination' clearly is quite deceptive and is further interpreted from the way other versions translate the passage as 'and with a man you shall not lie with a woman' which involves adding in words to give it that interpretation (and therefore if you believe in it accepting that the Bible is not directly the word of God). The second passage which advocates putting homosexuals to death (in most versions) has been translated by the NGPA (directly from the Hebrew apparently) as 'and a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman' which would suggest restrictions on homosexual behaviour between two men (e.g. don't do it in a woman's bed), but not necessarily completely forbid it.

In the New Testament, many passages often quoted are written by Paul who uses a greek word that does not exist anywhere else but in the bible, and it is that word that is translated often to homosexuals. In other words, he made a word up and people have assumed that is what it meant. There was a word in greek at the time to mean homosexuals, and Paul didn't use that word, so it's probably reasonable to assume that it was not what he meant.

There is also a bit where Jesus heals someone (can't for the life of me remember which) and it is often translated as that he is a healing a man's son. However, it is certainly not meant to be 'son' as the greek word used was one that commonly referred to a male slave kept for sexual purposes. So it doesn't sound like homosexuality is being condemned there either.

;)

Does anyone else know anything about other religious texts and what they say? That is generally where the anti-homosexuality stances are rooted. A lot of people have had a bit of a rant about power and general things, but does anyone know anything about the religious texts used to justify condemning homosexuality?

[Jolie]

In the New Testament, many passages often quoted are written by Paul who uses a greek word that does not exist anywhere else but in the bible, and it is that word that is translated often to homosexuals. In other words, he made a word up and people have assumed that is what it meant. There was a word in greek at the time to mean homosexuals, and Paul didn't use that word, so it's probably reasonable to assume that it was not what he meant.

There is also a bit where Jesus heals someone (can't for the life of me remember which) and it is often translated as that he is a healing a man's son. However, it is certainly not meant to be 'son' as the greek word used was one that commonly referred to a male slave kept for sexual purposes. So it doesn't sound like homosexuality is being condemned there either.


What are the words that you mean above please?

[wolfcamp]

wolfcamp - many of the tribes referred to folks who deviated from the "norm" of sexual orientation as "two spirit" people.

Yes, I started to bring that up but then backspaced it. There is only so much you can say in a posting before it starts becoming background noise.



Of course, beliefs varied among the tribes - you can't just assume that all the tribes believed the same.
Peace

I said many, not all. Actually I was making a counter-point to my previous comment, and my overall point is that not all religions condemn homosexuality. I guess I didn't just come out and say that.

I am fascinated by the concept of god and religion, but I don't really practice any particular faith. If I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Buddhism. It seems to be the least judgmental. I have my own ideas of a universal consciousness which some people might call god, but that is the topic of another thread. I heard a speaker say once that there is no one more interested in god and religion than an atheist. I'd place myself somewhere between an atheist and and agnostic. Richard Dawkins has a scale for that, but I don't recall his terminology right now. I am more interested in religion's roots, in an anthropological sense. I don't think the components of christianity sprang out of nowhere 2000 years ago. I think christianity and the other modern religions are a culmination of traditions, myths and superstitions that go back possibly as far as 50000 to 100000 years. That's the part that fascinates me.

I don't begrudge anyone their religion, because everyone needs something, whether it's religion or drugs or booze or money or sex or just another person to validate them. (Did I leave anything out? Don't flame me. :) )

[FalconAngel]

There have been some good points brought up here about organized religion and a few have made the point that there are good and bad in all religions.

The mention was made of the struggle between good Christians and evangelical (aka dominion) Christians.

For those that are good Christians or are not Christians, you need to take a look at our post in the following forum thread;

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4937

It is a list of quotes from LEADING dominion Christians, all of which have "Ceaser's ear" and are responsible for much of the negative changes in our country over the past 20.

[12voltman59]

Wow--this thread sure got folks fired up!!!!

Not being an adherent to the notion that the bible is the "inerrant word of God" and there can be no debating that--

We do have a problem with the translations of the texts of the bible over the years---translations are no doubt influenced by the mindset of those doing the translations or of those who hired them to do the translations---to me---the bible has been translated so many times that it is practically useless to rely upon it as the arbiter of all things--

I take the bible as an interesting collection of works, that it is a reflection of the times and places of where its various parts came from ---but to hold it as "truth" and a way to live by--I simply cannot do that. It was written by peoples who had a very lmiited knowledge about many aspects of the way the physical world works---we are supposed to limit ourselves today by the standards of those times?? I think not my friends---

Look at here in our own time---how many instances are there of a little church gets started someplace--maybe it becomes a faith in its own right with hundreds of churches--but then someone at one of those churches says---"we don't agree with how the church interprets this verse or that--and God tells us we are right and you are wrong!!"

This group pulls their church from the bigger body or members leave and start up their own church that becomes a faith in its own right -it goes from "LeRoy's House of We Know God" to "LeRoy's House of We Know God---the real ones who do---those other guys don't know shit"

A few years later--we have another group of split offs from this group and the cycle continues to replicate itself from time to time.

Christians cannot even agree amongst themselves on what all of the bible says and means--so how can anyone else---

Just about every faith possible has all kinds of offshoots from the Catholics--all protestants veered off from them to become Lutherans, the Baptists, et al. How many Church of God offshoots are there out there?? There are all kinds of split off groups that still have the term "Catholic" in their name too---

Isn't it a few lines down from that one passage of the bible used to denounce homosexuality that also says one should not eat shellfish????---I don't see folks who are against homosexuality protesting in front of oyster houses saying they should be closed down because eating oysters is "an abomination before God!"

I can tell ya--if they ever do go to that extreme--I guess I am really going to hell because I am sure as hell not going to stop eating oysters and clams!!!

[the mage]

Why does religion forbid homosexuals (Christianity, islam, etc.) If they are really born like this??
I mean... It says it in both the koran and the bible that homosexuals do not go 2 heaven. This tells us that god dosnt like homosexuals. If its true then why did he create them!? I also talked 2 a priest and he said that homosexuals dont go to heaven.:three:


Religion attempts to control social behavior, typically through control of information and life activity. Sadly, around the world it works very well when part of government.
It serves to enslave the masses while empowering the wealthy church, just like capitalism, but with afterlife thrown in.
Homosexual (or other sexual) life style's presume there is no afterlife to worry about and we live in celebration of today, (hedonistic) whereas the church wants you working hard to support the system and obeying all the rules that keep the people ignorant and poor.

Go Science...hehe..

[the mage]

Part 2

My personal problem with religion (not god who does not exist in any literal way)
is the basic premise built into them ALL.
The premise that we, these buckets of meat and water, have an after life makes humans feels as GODS them selves.
The imbalance caused in nature is now obvious.
We are not gods .....We have NO after life.
We are a species gone mad. A madness caused by our very awareness and the complexity that got us here.

The only possible defense against the absolute FACT of death for many is the mental control and the ritual hypnosis of religion. It is needed and religious PEOPLE have in fact done massive good service for all men planet wide on many occasions. To dismiss religion as evil and to hate god is irrational.

To use religion to override nature is normal in humans, it will be our undoing.

[DiamondDog]

Homosexual (or other sexual) life style's presume there is no afterlife to worry about and we live in celebration of today, (hedonistic) whereas the church wants you working hard to support the system and obeying all the rules that keep the people ignorant and poor.

Go Science...hehe..

Part 1:
You don't speak for all GLBT people, people who aren't heterosexual, or all people in general.

Like usual, you are going by heteronormative stereotypes and heteronormative viewpoints of what it means to be homosexual/bisexual, despite what the mage, hollywood/TV/the media, the porn industry, and popular heterosexual viewpoints go not everyone who is GLBT is a sex crazed hedonist who only lives for today.

There are religious GLBT people, religious people who do BDSM/have open marriages/relationships, yes even Christians who do BDSM and have open relationships/marriages, even GLBT Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and other religions and there are GLBT people who are deeply religious/spiritual as well.

For all the drugs you've used and the psychedelic that you constantly abuse, one would assume that you'd think otherwise about how things are on various levels besides the faux scientific ways that you think.

Just because you're into a certain religion or have certain religious/spiritual beliefs it doesn't mean that you're poor or somehow ignorant. One can argue that even atheists like Richard Dawkins, the mage, and UneedHands are ignorant.

One can be a scientist and still have their own personal faith in a religion.

Also, not all religions forbid homosexuality or sexuality that isn't heterosexual.

There are religions in the Carribean where they say that if one is homosexual or is bisexual that God/the gods made this person this way or showed them their attraction to that gender/genders. Many other religions are accepting of sexuality that isn't heterosexual or they don't mention anything about how being bisexual/homosexual is somehow "bad".

[DiamondDog]

Part 2

My personal problem with religion (not god who does not exist in any literal way)
is the basic premise built into them ALL.
The premise that we, these buckets of meat and water, have an after life makes humans feels as GODS them selves.
The imbalance caused in nature is now obvious.
We are not gods .....We have NO after life.
We are a species gone mad. A madness caused by our very awareness and the complexity that got us here.

The only possible defense against the absolute FACT of death for many is the mental control and the ritual hypnosis of religion. It is needed and religious PEOPLE have in fact done massive good service for all men planet wide on many occasions. To dismiss religion as evil and to hate god is irrational.

To use religion to override nature is normal in humans, it will be our undoing.

Part2:

How do you actually know for sure what happens after death or know for certain that there's somehow not a 'God' or whatever you want to call he/she/it/them? How do you know that we're not Gods? Do you have omnipotent knowledge over everything in the cosmos and humanity or is that your egomania and schizophrenia talking again?

Nobody knows any of this and can or can't prove any of it.

Also, not ALL religions are theistic or even mention an afterlife. Again, not ALL religions even want to override nature or think that as humans that we're somehow above it or not a part of it.

[coyotedude]

wolfcamp - flame you? No, no, no! No worries, dude!

I just wanted to be careful myself and note that not all tribes are the same. You can get in bad trouble in Indian country otherwise! lol

Peace

[<<GOD>>]

I called God and he said it was okay.

Couldn't have been me cuz I'm not a he nor a she. I am a we

and I'm building a stairway to heaven

your friend

<<God>>

[biame2]

Oh religions...why you still here ...

Its really simple, in the old time they wanted people to have sex only to have children, so naturally it wasnt good to have pleasure and secondly because you cant have kids with person of the same sex its was bad ( well still bad at their eyes)...anyway, in some country they even cut girls clit and lips down there to prevent them to have pleasure.....yuk....because women is the source of the original sin....anyway, everything is a matter of control, if you control the people you have more power and bla bla bla...notice that human are trying to get out of all this an its the one thing that i like to see....BI people are usualy more about being happy and work out all this illusion of false life than most people live......

[Valkyrie_Veritech]

I've often toyed with the idea of creating MY OWN religion. It would take the best parts (if any) from existing religions, and add a few more of my own devising. Any takers? Suggestions? Maybe we can all chip in and create it together? :)

Skater- I've got a few things for you- what you are describing- the salad bar approach to religion ( take what you want, and leave the rest) is actually called "Ecclectic Paganism" this is what i am- my current religious standpoint is based on parts and pieces of judeo-christianity, wicca, paganism, tao, and even stuff i just meditated on, and found an answer- after leaving christianity after a decade- this approach is most invigorating!!!!

check out www.ecauldron. com- a HUGE resource!

Enjoy!

[goldenfinger]

If GOD really did all the things he is said to have done, WHY can't he do it again and bring back all the animals we have lost in the past. God, please put air and water on the moon, and internet of cause. Can't wait to hear some peoples excuse for that not to happen.:eek:

[DiamondDog]

Couldn't have been me cuz I'm not a he nor a she. I am a we

and I'm building a stairway to heaven

your friend

<<God>>

I just always knew it! You're welickit! Poon hounds!


This site is sure going to hell fast.

[the mage]

Part 1:
You don't speak for all GLBT people, people who aren't heterosexual, or all people in general.

Like usual, you are going by heteronormative stereotypes and heteronormative viewpoints of what it means to be homosexual/bisexual, despite what the mage, hollywood/TV/the media, the porn industry, and popular heterosexual viewpoints go not everyone who is GLBT is a sex crazed hedonist who only lives for today.

There are religious GLBT people, religious people who do BDSM/have open marriages/relationships, yes even Christians who do BDSM and have open relationships/marriages, even GLBT Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and other religions and there are GLBT people who are deeply religious/spiritual as well.

For all the drugs you've used and the psychedelic that you constantly abuse, one would assume that you'd think otherwise about how things are on various levels besides the faux scientific ways that you think.

Just because you're into a certain religion or have certain religious/spiritual beliefs it doesn't mean that you're poor or somehow ignorant. One can argue that even atheists like Richard Dawkins, the mage, and UneedHands are ignorant.

One can be a scientist and still have their own personal faith in a religion.

Also, not all religions forbid homosexuality or sexuality that isn't heterosexual.

There are religions in the Carribean where they say that if one is homosexual or is bisexual that God/the gods made this person this way or showed them their attraction to that gender/genders. Many other religions are accepting of sexuality that isn't heterosexual or they don't mention anything about how being bisexual/homosexual is somehow "bad".

...........................you do love to see your sad little attacks in print dont you. My OPINIONS remain the same your flaming and trolling attacks will not change things..You have no knowledge of theses areas. You attack and flame just to be seen being an asshole.

YOU, little puppy, NEED drugs you need to stop attributing them to others.

[the mage]

Part2:

How do you actually know for sure what happens after death or know for certain that there's somehow not a 'God' or whatever you want to call he/she/it/them? How do you know that we're not Gods? Do you have omnipotent knowledge over everything in the cosmos and humanity or is that your egomania and schizophrenia talking again?

Nobody knows any of this and can or can't prove any of it.

Also, not ALL religions are theistic or even mention an afterlife. Again, not ALL religions even want to override nature or think that as humans that we're somehow above it or not a part of it.

...................sad sad sad little zirconium puppy like a foolish little child just MUST have the last offensive word on what so very obviously my complete personal absolute knowledge of all that happens in all the places of all the spaces of all the 12 known dimensions of space and time. I am indeed omnipotent!!! ..... or was that impotent..?? dam now I have to go check .. I'll get back to ya...

[DiamondDog]

...................sad sad sad little zirconium puppy like a foolish little child just MUST have the last offensive word on what so very obviously my complete personal absolute knowledge of all that happens in all the places of all the spaces of all the 12 known dimensions of space and time. I am indeed omnipotent!!! ..... or was that impotent..?? dam now I have to go check .. I'll get back to ya...

Eh don't bother, it's impotent. ;)

As for the first part you're over generalizing about large groups of people and going by heteronormative stereotypes like usual. So no your opinion hasn't changed at all, and will not; but who cares? Again you're bringing up my youth like it's a bad thing when you're the old man who remains immature and doesn't change or grow as a person at all at 52 years of age.

I like to challange bland boring blind dogma like yours. Other people here do too. It's not flaming to do this.

[the mage]

Eh don't bother, it's impotent. ;)

As for the first part you're over generalizing about large groups of people and going by heteronormative stereotypes like usual. So no your opinion hasn't changed at all, and will not; but who cares? Again you're bringing up my youth like it's a bad thing when you're the old man who remains immature and doesn't change or grow as a person at all at 52 years of age.

I like to challange bland boring blind dogma like yours. Other people here do too. It's not flaming to do this.


...................Well i just got back from an afternoon with the continum, Q says Hello there Zirc Pup, he knows you're big fan, any way the votes in..

I'm definitely omnivorous and omnipresent and overzealous but the multi orgasmic realities of the over used organs tell a spilling jizz encrusted tale of sexual prowess .hehehe
.my poor poor puppy..still whining,,,about dogma no less....no it was my opinion ,,,expressed as such,,, and you spew insults again.

I noted you found someone else to squabble with in the last days. Notably in the same, generalize and lie, and evade, and send out insult fashion, while never providing evidence of your own overused generalizations about entire societies now living never mind speculations on the (non) after life.

Zirconium puppy your insults remain tainted in hatred and envy of any one not just like you. My place in life is utterly unknown to you yet you feel the need to throw insult and venom for thoughts that oppose you. Not just to me either, you do all over this board.
You are small. You are afraid. You are angry too. Yes puppy you too will get old (if lucky) and you will die.....Get a shrink, cause if you're a church goin boy, it ain't working.

[diB4u]

I've often toyed with the idea of creating MY OWN religion. It would take the best parts (if any) from existing religions, and add a few more of my own devising. Any takers? Suggestions? Maybe we can all chip in and create it together? :)


DUDE I'M SO WITH YOU....


Take the best bits cut and paste them, and deleat the ones that are clearly rubbish.:bibounce:

[gfofbiguy]

I've often toyed with the idea of creating MY OWN religion. It would take the best parts (if any) from existing religions, and add a few more of my own devising. Any takers? Suggestions? Maybe we can all chip in and create it together? :)

DUDE I'M SO WITH YOU....

Take the best bits cut and paste them, and deleat the ones that are clearly rubbish.

Kind of like what they say to do in AA or AlAnon..."Take what you like and leave the rest"...that's what I do with my "religion", anyways.:)

[DiamondDog]

...................Well i just got back from an afternoon with the continum, Q says Hello there Zirc Pup, he knows you're big fan, any way the votes in..

I'm definitely omnivorous and omnipresent and overzealous but the multi orgasmic realities of the over used organs tell a spilling jizz encrusted tale of sexual prowess .hehehe
.my poor poor puppy..still whining,,,about dogma no less....no it was my opinion ,,,expressed as such,,, and you spew insults again.

I noted you found someone else to squabble with in the last days. Notably in the same, generalize and lie, and evade, and send out insult fashion, while never providing evidence of your own overused generalizations about entire societies now living never mind speculations on the (non) after life.

Zirconium puppy your insults remain tainted in hatred and envy of any one not just like you. My place in life is utterly unknown to you yet you feel the need to throw insult and venom for thoughts that oppose you. Not just to me either, you do all over this board.
You are small. You are afraid. You are angry too. Yes puppy you too will get old (if lucky) and you will die.....Get a shrink, cause if you're a church goin boy, it ain't working.

Whatever. Who says I'm religious or spiritual at all?

So I play Devil's advocate and skeptic. I don't see anything wrong with this.

I also post things that are true about people, again nothing wrong with this.

When dealing with FMP (fecal minded people) here such as yourself, you have to do this.

You're the one who posts stereotypes, generalizations, and your own personal assumptions about large groups of people.

I do post proof unlike yourself. As far as what I wrote in the other thread I wrote to the original poster in private message who didn't flame me and flip shit and we wrote about widespread hate groups and white supremacy in europe and politicians who are racist/homophobic.

What I wrote in that thread is true. Look at the posts made here by europeans and people from other countries who turn a blind eye and don't look at or choose to ignore or believe that racism, homophobia, hard drug use, violence, and antisemitism doesn't occur in their countries and view these issues with rose colored glasses, yet act like the U.S. is such a horrible place and is full of such people into such things.

So you get around a lot. Big deal. You probably do have some STDs since you ramble on about how easy it is to get them and you've had a large number of random partners who are strangers. Also your age is a factor in this. Nobody wants someone that's a total whore, promiscuious, or who's had lots of partners. OK, so maybe your girlfriend does but you both need to put down the pipe, the glass dick and pot.

Then there's how you're into doing consensual "rape" scenes with total strangers and then you cry wolf about being "raped" or sexually assaulted by someone when it's all consensual.

Let's not get started about your own personal track record of posting bullshit, lies, bigotry, biphobic BS, wrong information about HIV/STIs/safer sex, and venomous posts since we all know you're into all of that.

I've proved this tons of times and so have other people yet you only single me out and stalk/flame me.

If you have a brain, rational thought, and intelligence like you claim to have use them and think before you post blanket stereotypes on here like you do.

Yes this post is harsh but I'm dealing with a troll who posts lies, BS, ignorance, dogmatic blanket statements he knows nothing about, and a complete idiot.

To borrow a quote from coyotedude with what he said to another troll: You're a liar, a hypocrite, and a fool, and I've wasted too much time on you already.

[diB4u]

Kind of like what they say to do in AA or AlAnon..."Take what you like and leave the rest"...that's what I do with my "religion", anyways.:)


Yep........ So yay we got ourselves 3 members lol. What shall we leave and what would get the boot?:cool:

[gfofbiguy]

Yep........ So yay we got ourselves 3 members lol. What shall we leave and what would get the boot?:cool:

I've always been a big fan of "Treat others as you would like to be treated"...

[Skater Boy]

Yep........ So yay we got ourselves 3 members lol. What shall we leave and what would get the boot?:cool:

Well, I think we should keep some of the Biblical stuff from Christianity. For example:

-Do not murder
-Do not commit adultery
-Do not steal
-Do not bear false witness against your neighbour
-Do not covet thy neighbour's wife
-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

(except obviously we need to permit certain forms of consensual adultery and coveting of they neighbour's wife ;))

And how about a few from LaVeyan Satanism:

-Do not harm children
-Do not kill non-human animals unless you are harmed, or for food
-Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
-When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there.

Some Satanic sins:

1. Stupidity — The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness — Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. This is on equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism — Projecting your reactions, responses, and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are can be very dangerous for Satanists. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us, and requires constant vigilance, lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As it has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit — It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements”, but deserves to be repeated here. It is another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity — That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely, instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of perspective — Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints: Know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies — Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride — That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: If it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.


Now IMO, the above ideas SHOULDN'T be considered "sins" (as they are in Satanism). If anything, they should be researched and developed more thoroughly, until they could be used as "guidelines".

Tbh, I'm not sure if man has any right to deem something "sinful", as "sin" is all pretty much subjective (as my fellow bisexuals will probably realize). So, perhaps its best to focus on man's inherent humanity... that is to say... to RECOGNIZE that we are ALL HUMAN, and to be human means to err. Not necessarily REVELLING in our weaknessness, but just being AWARE of them, and accepting those that are inevitable.

That said, I don't think "Anarchy" is what we're looking for... there must be SOME guidelines, so I think simple, common sense ones would be best, with the emphasis on living together harmoniously and happily, rather than burning in hell, should one do something wrong.

I think Buddhism may have some interesting bits that could be used... anyone know a little more about it?

I also think we should throw in sociological, psychological and political factors, because IMO these represent the essence of what mankind (and indeed our society) are all about.

In fact, I'm tempted to subscribe to a Marxian perspective, whereby Monotheistic religion (as a whole) would be actively discouraged. But perhaps then I'm unfairly denying people of their right to believe in whatever (or whomever) they choose to.

Anyway, ya... I think human rights, civil rights, and development of both the individual AND the society are key things to consider.

[the mage]

Whatever. Who says I'm religious or spiritual at all?

So I play Devil's advocate and skeptic. I don't see anything wrong with this.

I also post things that are true about people, again nothing wrong with this.

When dealing with FMP (fecal minded people) here such as yourself, you have to do this.

You're the one who posts stereotypes, generalizations, and your own personal assumptions about large groups of people.

I do post proof unlike yourself. As far as what I wrote in the other thread I wrote to the original poster in private message who didn't flame me and flip shit and we wrote about widespread hate groups and white supremacy in europe and politicians who are racist/homophobic.

What I wrote in that thread is true. Look at the posts made here by europeans and people from other countries who turn a blind eye and don't look at or choose to ignore or believe that racism, homophobia, hard drug use, violence, and antisemitism doesn't occur in their countries and view these issues with rose colored glasses, yet act like the U.S. is such a horrible place and is full of such people into such things.

So you get around a lot. Big deal. You probably do have some STDs since you ramble on about how easy it is to get them and you've had a large number of random partners who are strangers. Also your age is a factor in this. Nobody wants someone that's a total whore, promiscuious, or who's had lots of partners. OK, so maybe your girlfriend does but you both need to put down the pipe, the glass dick and pot.

Then there's how you're into doing consensual "rape" scenes with total strangers and then you cry wolf about being "raped" or sexually assaulted by someone when it's all consensual.

Let's not get started about your own personal track record of posting bullshit, lies, bigotry, biphobic BS, wrong information about HIV/STIs/safer sex, and venomous posts since we all know you're into all of that.

I've proved this tons of times and so have other people yet you only single me out and stalk/flame me.

If you have a brain, rational thought, and intelligence like you claim to have use them and think before you post blanket stereotypes on here like you do.

Yes this post is harsh but I'm dealing with a troll who posts lies, BS, ignorance, dogmatic blanket statements he knows nothing about, and a complete idiot.

To borrow a quote from coyotedude with what he said to another troll: You're a liar, a hypocrite, and a fool, and I've wasted too much time on you already.

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[shameless agitator]

I like what you've included and agree we should throw out the whole idea of sin. As for Buddhism, you can sum up Therevada (the original form) with just the 4 noble truths here http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html You'll notice that the 4th noble truth includes the 8 fold path, which provides a pretty good set of guidelines for introspection & daily life. What it doesn't include is a deity or a bunch of mystical crap. That all came about later when some of the historical buddha's students formed a new type of buddhism (mahayana) based around the idea that he was still talking to them after reaching nirvana and leaving the world. Okay, that's a bit mystical, but the buddha never talked about karma or reincarnation & I don't think he had even mentioned nirvana. I think the whole concept of nirvana only occurred after his disappearance (or ascension) I suggest we use theravada as the main structure & incorporate the others as ways to illustrate how to walk the 8 fold path. I definitely want to avoid any kind of worship or compulsion.

[allbimyself]

All a bunch of over-thinking. "Sin" lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. Hurting yourself isn't sinful, just stupid.

BTW, stupidity isn't a sin. The truly stupid can't help being stupid.

[coyotedude]

If GOD really did all the things he is said to have done, WHY can't he do it again and bring back all the animals we have lost in the past. God, please put air and water on the moon, and internet of cause. Can't wait to hear some peoples excuse for that not to happen.:eek:

Goldenfinger, I have a question in response to your question - why should God do any of those things? In purely logical terms:

If God does not exist, God cannot (for example) revive extinct species.
If God exists AND has the ability to revive extinct species (which itself is an assumption), God may or may not choose to do so.
If God exists AND has the ability to revive extinct species AND chooses to do so, God may or may not choose to do so while humans as a species are around to witness the action.
And so on and so on....

In other words, the fact that God has not done something is not necessarily logical proof that God does not exist. You've got to take the argument a step further, my friend!

I think that one of the biggest problems in these discussions about religion is that too many of my atheist friends and counterparts all too often confuse a particular branch of religious tradition - Christianity - with God. Too many times I'll read that God cannot exist because such and such verse from the Bible is nonsensical or outright false or stupid or immoral or whatever. That assumes that the Biblical view of God is the only way to see God - which is patently absurd. The majority of religious believers in the world today are not Christian - a fact that many of my atheist counterparts in our little online community often seem to forget.

That doesn't mean that atheists are necessarily wrong that God does not exist. Nor does it mean that atheists - along with non-Christian believers - are wrong to question certain aspects of Christian dogma and doctrine. (The same can be said of Christian believers looking at atheism or non-Christian religious traditions, of course.) It does mean that all of us - atheists and believers alike - should be careful to separate the question of the existence of God from the precepts of any given religious doctrine.

(That's why I say kudos to shameless for talking about Buddhism and his thoughts on Therevada vs. Mahayana. Even though he and I may disagree on the question of God's existence, I really respect that he's not looking at the question - at least in this case - just through Christian-colored glasses.)

Just my :2cents:

Peace

[coyotedude]

All a bunch of over-thinking. "Sin" lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. Hurting yourself isn't sinful, just stupid.

BTW, stupidity isn't a sin. The truly stupid can't help being stupid.

But I like to over-think, dammit! You're taking away all my fun... :(

[allbimyself]

But I like to over-think, dammit! You're taking away all my fun... :(
Yeah, that's how Scientology got started, L. Ron was just having some fun...

[shameless agitator]

(That's why I say kudos to shameless for talking about Buddhism and his thoughts on Therevada vs. Mahayana. Even though he and I may disagree on the question of God's existence, I really respect that he's not looking at the question - at least in this case - just through Christian-colored glasses.)

Just my :2cents:

PeaceThanks Coyote. I never look at the question of god through christian colored glasses, though I admit I frequently use christianity as an example when I rail against religion. My disbelief in god & my opposition to religion stem from completely different sources. I'm afraid I offended a few people when I explained the reasoning behind my atheism in another thread, so I won't repost it here, but I'll pm it to you if you'd like. My hatred of religion, on the other hand I'll be happy to explain. Much has been made of the good (Dr. King, Ghandi, etc) & evil (Crusades, Salem witch trials,Suicide bombings, etc) acts committed in the name of religion. I would argue that people like Dr King & Ghandi, would have done the same good works even without their religious convictions because their consciences would not allow them to do otherwise. Some of the atrocities would have undoubtedly happened as well with a different justification, but I imagine most would not. I also think it would have been much harder for the megalomaniacs responsible for some of the genocidal activities we've seen to find followers if they weren't able to claim they were doing the will of god & any who opposed them would be punished.

[goldenfinger]

How come, when people say, god told me to do it, they lock them up.Who have the right to to tell what god says or doesn't say.Somebody MUST have proof.
But as I said, the plan it working.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[shameless agitator]

How come, when people say, god told me to do it, they lock them up.Who have the right to to tell what god says or doesn't say.Somebody MUST have proof.
But as I said, the plan it working.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:I think that depends on what they claim god told them to do

[FerociousFeline]

"My God, It's full of Stars.........."


I am completely blown away by the level of brilliance and adorable skirmishes that yall have displayed through the development of this thread.

I'm just going to sit here and bask in the glow of you wonderful people.

The very fact that you can discuss this topic here in such a civilized way has had me in stitches and smiling all the way through it.

You people really are a bunch of Stars.


I have researched this topic to the point where I have a patte' <sp?> horse.

This topic is obviously a very volatile one, capable of dividing friends and lovers and doing great damage to those who seek to openly discuss and learn from it. My hat is off to you all for having the courage to say what you feel.

As for me, I will offer my opinion on the subject, but it's important for you to realize that my opinions in no way reflect the owner of the site or the makers of this film....(isn't that the std disclaimer we see on movies nowdaze? lol) I do not wish in any way for my statements to be construed as being hostile or disrespectful to anyone or any religion. I will merely present to you what I have learned in a completely subjective format.

It is important to recognize that there is a huge difference between the initial construct of what I will refer to as "original morality" or the code of Divinely approved ethical behavior (i.e. The ten commandments) and the subsequent interpretation and REinterpretation by many many religions ever since.

It is also important to recognize that as religions are formed that they are heavily influenced by the politics of the time of their creation and the environment in which they were "born".

When Christianity was first getting started, they were battling the Greeks and the Pagans primarily. Both of the other groups indulged in same sex pairings with little or no significant religious implication. Christianity was attempting to convert these people from those groups with their own code of ethical behavior. It will also serve us well to understand that the people of the time who were practicing "sodomy" likely weren't as, shall we say, conscientious?
of their personal hygene <sp?> as we are today. Most people realize these days that there ARE certain health risks associated with this behavior which are easily taken care of with good personal grooming. But back in the day....

So yeah, there WERE good reasons to discourage the behavior, especially when homer would spend the night "out with the boys" and then come home to his wife and "lie" with her. (No, I'm not even going to TOUCH the hilarious duality of that word or it's implication regarding this topic lol! But suffice to say that maybe after a night out with the boys, she might have noticed that he always seemed to have "a headache")

But the REAL reason as I see it was that during the time of the formation of the Christian religion, it was much more about controlling the masses than it was about any real concern over sanctity or aspirations of mirrored divinity.
Sex was the major aspect that the church wished to control. They literally desired to have all of humanity, "by the balls". If you HAD sex.....the ONLY way to have it .......was with CONSEQUENCE. SOME of the tribes had the capability for abortion, (usually an incredibly well guarded secret among the women or Shaman of the tribes who had such knowledge) but for the most part, the only way to have sex was to have it with a woman....that way, it made kids. Kids made poverty. Poverty kept the people in a dependant state. So yeah, we certainly couldn't have same sex pairings, because then, they'd be short circuiting the SYSTEM. Why, they might wind up having GUILT FREE and CONSEQUENCE FREE......BLISS!!!!!! Wait a minute! If they do THAT? How the fuck are we going to continue to CONTROL them? (Not to mention that it would strengthen the Romans and the Pagans who Christianity was in DIRECT competition with for members.

So, it was a variety of reasons why the anti-same sex pairings evolved into the horrible sins that it now represents among those who have been brought up under such teachings.

Did God say it was wrong? Um.....Nope. In fact, I have a lot of evidence to support an indication to the contrary, but I'll save that for another post on another day.

;)

FF

[shameless agitator]

Great post ferocious. I love it when people have obviously thought their responses through.

[goldenfinger]

I think that depends on what they claim god told them to do
So now YOU have the right to tell what other people hear.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Oops, did I say something about not get sucked in.:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:

[shameless agitator]

So now YOU have the right to tell what other people hear.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Oops, did I say something about not get sucked in.:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:Nope. My point is that if people say god tells them to do something harmless, nobody is likely to give a shit. Some will believe them & some will believe it's a delusion, but a harmless one. If, on the other hand, they said dog told them to kill the neighbors, we're likely to decide they need to be kept away from the rest of us.:eek:

[jrlopz]

You said it right "religion forbid homosexuals". My take is along time ago a group of hustlers decided that to keep people in check they need to make some rules that will serve to control people, but to make them obey them without questions they said they came from god hence then the birth of organized religion. The other thing is that Islam and Christianity are two of the youngest religions in the world and they have not evolved past the time of recruiting by guilt or punishment. I personally cannot belong to any religion that tells me that if I do this I'm going to hell or if I do this other thing its a sin, and then turn around and tell me that god is all love, compassion, and will forgive all my sins if I only submit without questions.:rolleyes: :cool:

[Lateralus]

Why does religion forbid homosexuals (Christianity, islam, etc.) If they are really born like this??
I mean... It says it in both the koran and the bible that homosexuals do not go 2 heaven. This tells us that god dosnt like homosexuals. If its true then why did he create them!? I also talked 2 a priest and he said that homosexuals dont go to heaven.:three:

In short, it's all about how people interpret the bible, koran, etc. As far as Christianity is concerned, some would say that it's as clear as day that the bible says "man should not lie with another man", or something to that effect. Others will argue that, that was part of the old testament, which some Christians say they're not supposed to follow, but in the new testament Jesus doesn't mention anything about homosexuality. I'm not a Christian, so my apologies in advance if I got anything wrong. But yeah, it's all about who you hear it from. And not all religions forbid it. Some even celebrate it. In old Native American beliefs homosexuals were seen as having two spirits.

[FerociousFeline]

But yeah, it's all about who you hear it from. And not all religions forbid it. Some even celebrate it. In old Native American beliefs homosexuals were seen as having two spirits.

No no no no.

You've got the right idea, sort of.

A Two-spirit isn't just any homosexual. Not all homosexuals were considered two-spirit's. It was a SPECIAL bisexual. A spiritual leader.

But to further your point after my correction, there are several tribes throughout the world who actually incorporate bisexuality as a distinct developmental phase. As far as God is concerned, well, I have it on good authority that he really doesn't fuck up. That everything that is here is here for a good reason. If we apply that knowledge to men and bisexual urges, then one has to ask oneself.....why put a mans G-spot in a place that seems to actively encourage this behavior? After all, it's not like women were born with an instinctive knowledge of how to access said erogenous zone.....

God apparently was very art-deco. (form follows function) So, we must therefore postulate that even if we do not know WHY.........the machinery is there.....the purpose seems obvious, and Mr Big doesn't build anything without a purpose. Unless of course we are just all the ant farm of some alien race of humanoid females who built this in so that men could be easily controlled and domesticated by females.....

Hmmmmmm


FF

[Skater Boy]

God apparently was very art-deco. (form follows function)

Erm... I think the "FFF" principle was more related to "Modernism", than "Art Deco", but... what do I know? :confused: :cowboy:

[FerociousFeline]

Erm... I think the "FFF" principle was more related to "Modernism", than "Art Deco", but... what do I know? :confused: :cowboy:

Hell I dunno, that's just what I was taught. Like a LOT of things I was taught.......(doesn't mean they were RIGHT, or anything)

I never claimed to be infallible, just inflatable ;)

FF

[35pamike]

religion bars homosexuality because the act of sex, as defined by the church is a act that is designed to create life. as far as the church is concerned it has no other purpose. any waste of the life giving elements such as, sperm or eggs either blocked by condoms or some other type of birth control is considered a sin because it does not perform the funtion that the human body is designed to do and obvioulsy Homosexuality can not create life. I DO NOT AGREE with this attitude but, as a son of a priest I understand the logic as misguided as it may be.

[goldenfinger]

I'm glad I know nooooothing.

[DC_looking]

There is no god. Monotheism of all colors are man made collections of contradictory mythology based on fear and the promise of a glorious after life for those who ignore the one true life they have. The one they are living.

Just my thoughts.

[rissababynta]

This is why I love being pagan :-P

[nakedambrosia]

I don't know how homosexuality/bisexual choices became forbidden thru current established religions. I suspect it was introduced by man and not by the Creator as a means of control and establishment of social conduct.
The reason I say this is that throughout shamanic practices such homosexual/bi individuals were considered sacred. In the book Shamanic Voices by Joan Halifax PH.D., P 22 under The Androgyne Shaman, the author describes the practices of the Siberian peoples regarding "soft men". Such individuals were identified when young and were looked upon as a gift to the people, a future healer, a shaman. Such individuals went through an extensive training to become a shaman/healer. In many cultures, androgeny was considered a sacred gift because it represented the duality of the Creator male and female in one body.
Somewhere along the way, Judeo-Christianity and Islam became hostile to homosexuality, a complete turn around from so called "pagan" ideas which understood the real meaning of androgeny.
Because such shamanic practices occurred before our present organized religions came to being I believe that man and not deity introduced such taboos in order to separate Judeo-Christianity and Islam from shamanic/pagan beliefs.

[bigirl_inwv]

I guess now it's my turn to throw in my :2cents:

I was raised in a Christian household. We went to church on Sundays and Wednesdays. There were times that I would have a true spiritual feeling while I was there. There were other times that I was bored out of my mind and just wanted to go home. When I finally admitted to myself that I was bisexual (at the ripe old age of 12) I sat down with my grandmother and had a long talk about it. You know what she told me? GOD made you this way. You are his child and he will love you regardless. At age 12, that satisfied me. Now, not so much.

Listen, I've read the Bible numerous times. The Bible is like any other piece of literature. Each person who reads it is going to come away with a different opinion on it. Ask a group of college students to write a literary analysis on a book, each persons paper is going to be different. Its the same with the Bible. Humans have this innate ability to take words and twist them into what THEY want them to mean. Religion is just that. Its a group of people who just so happened to have the same opinion on the book they read.

My own personal opinion...I don't think there is a God. I just can't fathom an all loving God who would let the kinds of things that happen in the world go on. I can't fathom a God who would let millions of innocent people die. I can't fathom a God who lets children fall in harms way. I can't fathom a God who could possibly produce people in his image that are filled with the kind of vicious hate that is rampant in the world today. I just don't get that. Perhaps I believe the way that I do because of how I was raised. I used to believe in God...then I grew up and realized who cruel the world is. Perhaps I'm a woman scorned. All I know is that I live by a basic human code. If it's not hurting someone else or myself, I don't see a problem with it. I take on a very hedonistic lifestyle. I don't know what's going to happen to me after I die, so I spend every moment I have enjoying the life that I'm living now.

Nobody can know for sure who is right and who is wrong. Who's to say we aren't all right and that when you die...whatever you believe is going to happen to you...is exactly what happens. We don't know. Thats why they call it faith.

[Skater Boy]

My own personal opinion...I don't think there is a God. I just can't fathom an all loving God who would let the kinds of things that happen in the world go on. I can't fathom a God who would let millions of innocent people die. I can't fathom a God who lets children fall in harms way. I can't fathom a God who could possibly produce people in his image that are filled with the kind of vicious hate that is rampant in the world today. I just don't get that. Perhaps I believe the way that I do because of how I was raised. I used to believe in God...then I grew up and realized who cruel the world is.


Reminds me of an old George Sand quote:

"I would rather believe that God did not exist, than believe that He was indifferent."

[let_em_eat_cock]

Quite simple. Each of these religions has sought to take over the world in one way or another. One of the ways has been by encouraging their followers to breed like rabbits and anyone who wanted to live a different way has been persecuted. Luckily many have realised that by following these teachings they were destined to remain in poverty and have since questioned other dogmas too.

[VBScript]

I like what you've included and agree we should throw out the whole idea of sin. As for Buddhism, you can sum up Therevada (the original form) with just the 4 noble truths here http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html You'll notice that the 4th noble truth includes the 8 fold path, which provides a pretty good set of guidelines for introspection & daily life. What it doesn't include is a deity or a bunch of mystical crap. That all came about later when some of the historical buddha's students formed a new type of buddhism (mahayana) based around the idea that he was still talking to them after reaching nirvana and leaving the world. Okay, that's a bit mystical, but the buddha never talked about karma or reincarnation & I don't think he had even mentioned nirvana. I think the whole concept of nirvana only occurred after his disappearance (or ascension) I suggest we use theravada as the main structure & incorporate the others as ways to illustrate how to walk the 8 fold path. I definitely want to avoid any kind of worship or compulsion.

Agitated-I guess you really aren't Atheist then since you're Buddhist, since being Buddhist is a religion no matter how u want to say its not.

If u were a devout Buddhist u would understand that ALL religions are a path to truth and that not one religion is the answer, and that you shouldn't disrespect those religions or what they have to teach people.

[shameless agitator]

Actually, I'm not a buddhist. I actually am an atheist. I just happened to have researched several religions before deciding that none of them worked for me.

[VBScript]

Actually, I'm not a buddhist. I actually am an atheist. I just happened to have researched several religions before deciding that none of them worked for me.

So why do you believe in the 8 fold path or the other philosophies/metaphysics of buddhism, if you're not buddhist?

[shameless agitator]

First of all, all of the metaphysics come in in Mahayana & I was advocating incorporating aspects of Therevada. I find the four noble truths to be an interesting philosophical perspective. The second in particular can be both very comforting & very frustrating.

[BIMUSCLEBOY2007]

The Gospel Of Matthew
CH:19, V:12
Good News Edition
Jesus Christ:
"For there are several reasons why men don't marry women:
1.SOME ARE BORN THAT WAY.
2.Some are made that way by other men.(?)
3.Some don't marry in order to serve the church."
Is Jesus talking about marriage only, or something else entirely. There's a rumor about a scripture where Jesus Christ, Himself, performed a same-sex wedding between 2 men, after their rabbi turned them down & the town was about to stone them, IIRC.
Who knows?
Whenever someone says "the Bible says....", ask them, "What did Jesus say about it?"
That ALWAYS stops them DEAD in their tracks!
It also always drains the blood from their faces, which is always fun to see...:)
As I see it, religious texts denounce homosexuality (thier own & other peoples') for at least one reason: power. Less procreation, fewer people in the world. Fewer people, fewer minds to control. Fewer minds to control, less power. Less power...and so on...
Also, the Bible also says that polygamy and slavery are okay, so, other than the love that Christ taught that we should show each other, is any of it really worth fretting over?
I'd say 'no'.
Ask yourself:
1.Why do the people who are the quickest to call themselves 'Christians' ALWAYS the slowest to treat others as He taught?
2.Why, since Moses also forbade(GR?) pork, shellfish, face-shaving, etc., do people only focus on the homophobic 'admonishment'?
3.Have you ever been around a homophobe...and your gay/bi-dar didn't "go off", at least a little?

I've come to realize:
1.Just because some dead guy said that GOD said it, doesn't mean that God said it.
2.There's no such thing as a homophobe who's 100&#37; heterosexual.
3.Whatever their issue is with you is merely a projection of their own inner turmoil(unless you've personally hurt them in some way).

All of that said, there are religious factions that are turning away from the old lies.
Check out this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s3qkMvRwOo
His name is Carlton Pearson, a former Pentacostal Bishop who lost a HUUUUGE congregation when he realized that much of what he'd been taught as a Pentacostal, was a lie, and that Hell is simply a state of consciousness, instead of a physical place. Of course, the conservatives HATE HIS GUTS, though, they try to mask their hate & jealousy of his new success by saying that their trying to 'save his soul'. BS.
The spiritual revolution is already happening, and more people have your back than you might think. There aren't nearly as many homophobes as I used to think there were.

[VBScript]

First of all, all of the metaphysics come in in Mahayana & I was advocating incorporating aspects of Therevada. I find the four noble truths to be an interesting philosophical perspective. The second in particular can be both very comforting & very frustrating.

So call yourself an ignorant Atheist then.

[alaskacouple]

Such a difficult question, and such a poor medium in which to try and offer a reasonable response. I have avoided this thread because of the trolls, but now that they have been removed I thought I might try to offer a point or two in the hope that it might help someone. There have been several good posts that brought out a number of points that have some merit. This is such a big topic, and there is no way to address the many issues at once, that I think I will limit myself to the concerns of my fellow believers (and again, I limit myself to Christians because that happens to be the faith system that I have spent over 35 years studying - I might add that in that studying I have come to believe that Christ died for all, and not just those few who have heard His name in this life.)

First, I do not believe in 'blind faith' and it actually has no place in Christianity. Hebrews 11;1 'Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.' So, one must come to a deep and sure conviction that first God and then Jesus Christ are in fact realities. And since there is no way to actually go back in time and see with our own eyes and thus "prove" what we believe, we are forced by need to rely upon whatever scraps of "evidence" we can find that would provide the assurances that would move us in one direction or the other. This is the common struggle of all - some choose to believe that the 'evidence' tends to support a Creator, some are still reviewing the 'evidence' and others have concluded that there is no evidence. But, as Christians, we should have already reviewed the 'evidence' in a way that we can say we are 'sure of what we hope for'.

Second, is the issue at hand which is why homosexuality is considered a sin. I think many have offered very good points - things such as the translations of ancient languages, the difference in how societies viewed homosexual activity (e.g. as a violent act done to humiliate a defeated foe), how homosexuality can be an expression of lust without regard to love, etc. And I think these are all valid and excellent points.

But, I want to touch on one other thing that has been briefly mentioned by at least one commenter; Sin as used in the new testament is a word from the Greek which derives from an archery term which means 'to fall short of the mark'. When applied to spiritual matters it implies a falling short of the glory and goodness of the Creator. It cannot be stressed enough that the 'sin' of homosexuality is mentioned in the same breath and sentences as other 'sins' such as slander, gossip, anger, rage, thievery, murders, judgments and the many other 'ugly things' people are prone to do. If there are degrees to 'sin', I would not know. But one thing I am confident in saying is that we have all sinned and fall short of the goodness, love and glory of the Creator. And any prohibitions against 'sins' are given as a means to protect us all from our own folly - the same as we prohibit our children from doing things that would cause them harm. Do they always listen? No. Are they hurt because of that? Yes. Do we still love them? Hmmmm depends on the day you ask...

The point in all of this is that in the American flavor of Christianity in the last half a century or so there has evolved certain 'buzz word' sins that somehow have taken all of the press. I can't recall the last time I saw a televised preacher become seized in a fit of rage as he spoke against the 'sin' of gossip or slander. And yet I think most would agree that more harm has been done to more people through these 'sins' that by a few homosexual lovers who try to live a quite life in their own home.

Thus, the closure that is found within the complex teachings of Christianity - All of us have 'sinned', do 'sin' and will continue to 'sin' (read sin = falling short of the goodness, love and glory of God). In Christianity, all 'sin' is forgiven - (but the depth of that statement is another subject, and again my own study has lead me to the conclusion that the current American flavor of Christianity understands "forgiveness" in a way that is not the same as what the early Church taught and believed)

I know this was a long post, but these things just cannot be condensed into a few sentences and still retain any meaning. If any would like to continue the discussion now that the trolls are gone I would be willing - if it's too complex I can see that too.