any one seen these camps?

[the mage]

Wow, check this out....makes you think a bit on the paranoid side but its not my doing I just heard about it...
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

[12voltman59]

I just had been reading a story on Huffington Post.com the other day about the new Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff who is calling for closing the prison camp at GITMO. At the end of the article and without comment---included information that across the bay from the that camp at Guantanamo--construction is wrapping up on a "refugee camp" that is capable of holding 10,000 people--this is one of those camps that Halliburton and its former KBR (Kellog, Brown and Root) subsidary got a contract on a closed bid basis to build for the US government.

They have plans to build a number of them-- the Halliburton/KBR no bid contracts for this work are in the range of about $1.5 billion or so to build them.

Ostensibly---these facilities are to be used in situations like Katrina, a major earthquake and the need arises to house large numbers of those displaced by the natural disaster or possibly a large scale terrorist attack due to something like the detonation of a "dirty bomb." There is also the possible outbreak of the bird flu too.

Oh yeah-another reason these facilities are being built--as quarantine centers if and when the avian flu virus mutates and we have widespread outbreaks of the flu virus in the human population.....

I would like to trust that what the goverment says is true regarding the purpose of these camps, but with me--the crediblity of the Bush administration to tell the truth about anything is less than zero----the construction of these "temporary resettlement facilties" are troubling to say the least.

Something else of concern to note--I had recently watched an interview on Bill Moyers' show on PBS where the interviewee was discussing the private security firm Blackwater--he said they now have something like over 100,000 private soldiers and on the Discovery netwok program "Future Weapons"-- a recent episode featured some of the new weapons that Blackwater has privately developed and deployed one awesome total weapon systems package--a very formidable armored vehicle that equals or surpases the new one developed for our own military. The new armored vehcile is mated with a gun system that mates two fully automatic shotguns controlled by a very high end fire control system. The weapon is also used by individual foot soldiers and just a single such weapon alone is very formidable---it can fire in rapid succession a large variety of rounds. The dual, computer controlled one on the carrier is simply devasting in what it can do.

A small squad of well trained foot soldiers in tandem with one or several such vehciles could actually take effective control of a city in short order--that is one of the tactics they showed them practicing on the progam--a squad of Blackwater soldiers with just a few of these machines and armed with those weapons and others in their arsenal could neutralize a city's police force in short order--if the police were going to try to oppose such an attack.

The speaker on the Bill Moyers show said he has a great deal of concern that Blackwater is amasing such a large military capablity--Blackwater is also investing billions in the creation of their own private intelligence gathering operation that in a short time--is approaching capbilities comparable to that of the CIA, NSA and military intelligence.

You do have to wonder why a private entity is getting so stong in these areas!!!!

That video from Indiana is pretty chilling----doesn't seem like that is gonna be for natural disaster refugees!!!

[Not2str8]

You know, this video illustrates where the U.S. has been heading in recent years. This facility (camp ?) may well be innocuous. Then again, it may be what I suspect it to be. A privately owned penal facility, not subject to the same rules and laws as government facilities, that was paid for by our tax dollars. (more corporate welfare). Who will it's residents be ? Drug offenders ? Illegal immigrants ? Suspected terrorists ? Or will it be Americans "guilty" of political dissent ? Remember, the President now has the legal authority to accuse anyone, American citizen or foriegn national, of being a "terrorist", spirit us away to anywhere he likes, and imprison us indefinitely, without even bringing charges, or notifying our families and even attorneys that we are in custody. ( Heil Cheney !)
I hate like hell sounding like a member of the paranoid, tinfoil-hat-wearing lunatic crowd, but our government has proven repeatedly that it cannot be trusted to govern in OUR interest. (The only reason for a government TO exist.) It has it's own agenda. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, and you and I as citizens are in the way....obstacles to be overcome or eliminated in these peoples' ever-growing, insatiable lust for power.
Be aware. The more you look, the more you'll see how We The People, who put them in power, are now viewed as the enemy.

[shameless agitator]

Who would Jesus bomb? Yeah, who would Jesus kill?
The double talk is past surreal
The word of god is now the word of hate
War is peace, and freedom is the police state
Can't you see the writing on the wall?
Democracy lays trampled on the floor...

You better believe that...
Hell yeah I'm confused for sure what I thought was the New Millennium is 1984!
Mr. Orwell from the grave, adding fresh ink to the page
As the unpresident declares an endless war...
Welcome to 1984!

Feels like Nazi Germany, and Hitler on TV,
As the unpresident spews homophobic speech
Didn't the Allies fight an war to end extremist fascist law
So tell me NOW what are the fuck we fighting for?

I just can not take it anymore
Democracy lays trampled on the floor...
Man, isn't freedom great?!?!

Hell yeah I'm confused for sure what I thought was the New Millennium is 1984!
Mr. Orwell from the grave, adding fresh ink to the page
As the unpresident declares an endless war...
Now we've got...
Armies of peace, armed to the teeth, delivering death to make the world a better place
So celebrate the weapons spending, say a toast to Armageddon, raise some hell!
We're all headed straight to hell!!!

Hell yeah I'm confused for sure what I thought was the New Millennium is 1984!
Mr. Orwell from the grave, adding fresh ink to the page
As the unpresident declares an endless war...
Welcome to 1984!

Welcome to 1984 ~ Anti-Flag

[HighEnergy]

I was watching Michael Moore's Sicko the other day. Something that struck me was him saying the difference between us and France is the French government is scared of the people because they take to the streets and demonstrate. Yes indeed, 1984. :(

[the mage]

I fear America will not take to the streets till they are hungry en masse, but then its too late...

From inside your country you do not see that the rest of the world only sees the corporate monsters your country exports. They do not see the average American guy as you do not the the average Chinese. There is no sympathy for the disparity between the people and the corporate resource stealing, planet polluting, entity's that represent you all in other continents.
You are viewed as thieves and invaders. The rest of the world will watch with glees as your country falls to ruin.. David /Goliath stuff...Its up to you as individuals to do something to stop this downward spiral. The pigs that run the show are hiding in the boardrooms not Washington.

[the mage]

Case in point..
Check out whats done in the Amazon...

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/05/texaco200705

[jeancarleo]

All very awful news but it's the whole truth of what is happening in the real world.

What can we do about it?

[the mage]

You can send letters and e mails to government people corporate head offices and friends at large urging a human driven world not a profit driven one.

I do not talk out of my hat in this, my Prime minister, Minister of Justice Provincial Premier have all received e mails and letters from me. I have not been hauled away yet....

[ihavapa]

Not the first time this country had concentration camps, I think "we" called them relocation camps during WWll, mostly they were for persons of Japanese extraction, but I believe there were also ones for Germans and Italians, oh yes lest we for get the original occupants of this area they were sent to reservations or reserves, and given lovely gifts like blankets infected with small pox. Yes we are a truly giving people that landed here in North America.

[HighEnergy]

All very awful news but it's the whole truth of what is happening in the real world.

What can we do about it?

You use less energy and you buy less stuff. We don't really need new clothes, or trinkets around the house. Buy things that will less your impact on the planet like insulation and goofy looking lightbulbs.

Other than that, put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.

Sorry, found out my sister has cancer today and it's already spread, so I'm a little fatalistic tonight.

[FalconAngel]

Not the first time this country had concentration camps, I think "we" called them relocation camps during WWll, mostly they were for persons of Japanese extraction, but I believe there were also ones for Germans and Italians, oh yes lest we for get the original occupants of this area they were sent to reservations or reserves, and given lovely gifts like blankets infected with small pox. Yes we are a truly giving people that landed here in North America.

We called them internment camps. But these new ones are going to be reserved for "enemies of the empire" and probably run by Bush's private army of Blackwater troops.

[nakedambrosia]

I had to think on how to reply to this post without compromising a source relating to information received many years ago, years before 9/11.
I was doing research (still do but for myself now-I write novels) for someone. I was contacted and was told about an experience this person had in the Southwest. I listened and kept an open mind, and shelved the story because unless I get another unrelated source on the same subject the original story has a zero correlation. However, if I see the same subject coming up, then my curiosity temperature rises.
I looked at this post and I noted the subject relating to guillotines. My curiosity peaked and I read the material. Thus, here is my story.
My source was somewhere in the Southwest in the middle of no where. Suddenly, the subject stumbled on a rail offshoot from a main rail line. The offshoot was well hidden, and by coming up on a rise the subject saw a bunch of rail cars parked on the offshoot. No locomotive was present. The subject started to investigate and managed to get into a rail car to look around for curiosity sake. What the subject saw chilled the subject to the bone. The subject broke into four other cars and discovered the same thing.
The subject discovered that the cars were loaded with neatly packed guillotines.
I pressed the subject for details, like are you sure that is what you saw, were they perhaps for cattle or livestock? And the response was emphatic: they were guillotines that could only be used on human beings.
I was doubtful, even though the subject appeared terrified and asked numerous times not to mention any details about the subject or what the subject was doing out in the desert.
This post is interesting seeing that the secret camp subject has been around for quite some time and perhaps got an infusion of activity post 9/11. The subject of Blackwater and other secret security forces developed post 9/11 is disturbing. The existence of such camps could only be for the following reasons:
-A pandemic, an out of control disease affecting millions.
-A devastating attack on the US affecting millions.
-A natural disaster beyond control, affecting millions.
-An internal revolution against the US Governemnt affecting millions.

I was trained in survival techniques and I can share some insight with all of you:
-Never never go to a relocation/collection point even if it is offered as a means of shelter and food by a governement or private agency. Never never go to an assembly point where people are directed to go to. Ever. Be self reliant.
-Learn everything you can about survival. Acquire survival gear easily portable and have it packed ready to go.
-Weapons: I recommend an 870 express Remington shotgun with a rifled barrel and an extra bird barrel. 38/357 revolver-I like revolvers because they are easy to maintain. If you absolutely need an automatic, then a Glock 45 or 40 caliber plus a 22 caliber as well. Think easy to clean and maintain.
-Stockpile dry goods and various seeds. Very important. If you have to move out then hit the wilderness AWAY from population clusters.

And please, don't be paranoid. Just be prepared, and keep an open mind. The post does bring up quite a number of questions.

[DiamondDog]

And please, don't be paranoid.

Perhaps yourself, the original poster of this topic, and the "subject" should follow this advice? :2cents:

Anyone can go and make things up and ramble on about conspiracy theories and the government. Next thing we know we'll get tons of posts about how the "subject" actually saw inside one of these camps, and we'll get tons of posts about blackwater. I know someone else is going to post in this topic.

[12voltman59]

This link is for Blackwater's page regarding their new APC (armoured personnel carrier) the "Grizzly."

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/armored/

[nakedambrosia]

Diamondog, I'm too open minded to be paranoid! Just prepared. There is a difference. The information that was given to me many years ago was one of many-yet, I take note when correlations occur. However, I still keep an open mind. This subject is not one I'm researching now but has interesting implications relating to novel writing.

[Moto1]

Something else of concern to note--I had recently watched an interview on Bill Moyers' show on PBS where the interviewee was discussing the private security firm Blackwater--he said they now have something like over 100,000 private soldiers and on the Discovery netwok program "Future Weapons"-- a recent episode featured some of the new weapons that Blackwater has privately developed and deployed one awesome total weapon systems package--a very formidable armored vehicle that equals or surpases the new one developed for our own military. The new armored vehcile is mated with a gun system that mates two fully automatic shotguns controlled by a very high end fire control system. The weapon is also used by individual foot soldiers and just a single such weapon alone is very formidable---it can fire in rapid succession a large variety of rounds. The dual, computer controlled one on the carrier is simply devasting in what it can do.

A small squad of well trained foot soldiers in tandem with one or several such vehciles could actually take effective control of a city in short order--that is one of the tactics they showed them practicing on the progam--a squad of Blackwater soldiers with just a few of these machines and armed with those weapons and others in their arsenal could neutralize a city's police force in short order--if the police were going to try to oppose such an attack.

The speaker on the Bill Moyers show said he has a great deal of concern that Blackwater is amasing such a large military capablity--Blackwater is also investing billions in the creation of their own private intelligence gathering operation that in a short time--is approaching capbilities comparable to that of the CIA, NSA and military intelligence.

You do have to wonder why a private entity is getting so stong in these areas!!!!

That video from Indiana is pretty chilling----doesn't seem like that is gonna be for natural disaster refugees!!!

Now I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. I have no doubt that private security companies have R&D sections, and they may well have designed a new vehicle (although why putting a pair of automatic combat shotguns (which already exist) on an armored vehicle constitutes something as powerful as you are describing is unclear). Moreover you cannot even take over a city with a tank, or any single vehicle. To take a city, you need troops, to subdue the populous. All a vehicle can do is raise it to the ground, not conqueror it (and this vehicle you are describing cannot even do that.) Furthermore although I know of the legendary combat-incompetence of the US police force (which is statistically less accurate with a firearm than the average civilian), the fact that they are all armed and in many cases will have the aid of one or more SWAT teams; one squad wouldn't stand a chance. An armored vehicle will fall to a combined effort once the 5-6 men of the squad are taken out; it will be vulnerable to grenade attack even if SWAT have nothing heavier (I am not familiar with their standard armaments).

I am also going to call bullshit on Blackwater having an intelligence branch on the level of the CIA. The amount of money that goes into the CIA is huge, more than Blackwater could afford; ESPECIALLY for something that frankly has no use to them. Furthermore government organizations such as the CIA have the laws formed around them, to allow them to do their job, a private intelligence service would find it much harder.

I highly doubt your sources had any useful information, beyond just scaremongering and a lust for an interesting story.

[DiamondDog]

Diamondog, I'm too open minded to be paranoid! Just prepared. There is a difference. The information that was given to me many years ago was one of many-yet, I take note when correlations occur. However, I still keep an open mind. This subject is not one I'm researching now but has interesting implications relating to novel writing.

Very well said Moto1.

I call bullshit on the “source”. He/she/you/it/they just have an active imagination that’s all.

I don’t mean to be morbid or condone genocide or anything but if you look at history, if such a thing were going to be done to a mass amount of people today they wouldn’t use the guillotine which has been around since the 13th Century since it’s very slow, outdated, and they weren’t even used during the holocaust or any of the more modern day genocides/mass executions of people.

They don’t even use them for killing livestock, as electrocution and sledgehammers are preferred.

How are you not being paranoid? You’re telling people to stockpile weapons and collect survival gear and have it all ready to go at the drop of a hat.

This sort of mentality about a conspiracy theory is just as bad as it was in the late 1990s with the whole Y2K/Year 2000 fear/paranoia conspiracy theories that were around.

There's such a thing as being so open minded that your brain falls out.

[nakedambrosia]

Diamonddog, my source provided pictures, to include pertinent markings on the train cars. I'm not involved with the line of research I was doing at the time. Actually at that time my research was done for someone else relating to another topic. What was interesting is that parallel information did come from unexpected sources. As I said before, correlation of facts is very important and a lot of information was never used because the correlations just did not occur. At present, I write fiction novels and I enjoy doing so. I use facts to back my fiction because as you know facts give credibility to any story. As a writer I'm extremely curious and open to a huge amount of information on a ton of topics, but I don't believe everything that I discover. This original post is interesting, sparked some curiosity but it's just a a curiosity for me at this point, nothing else.

[Sapphrodite]

Though I choose to refrain from sharing my personal political views, it is never a bad idea to be prepared for survival. I know, I know: paranoia. But the Scouts motto is Be Prepared - no one calls them paranoid ;) Even without a political agenda - take a moment to say "What If" - because being prepared is not being paranoid.

What if you were stuck in a hydro outage like the one that hit NE States and Canada five years ago? No electricity, no heat, no hot water, and the list goes on. You may go without other things you hadn't thought of: people couldnt buy food or supplies because all the stores were closed. No money from bank machines and gas stations were closed because the pumps are electric. A friend of mine couldnt fill her prescription for more than 3 days at a time because drug stores were on emergency rationing. Fortunately for us, we were prepared and even had hot meals & lights, and it didnt take more than some 'in case' provisions.

It is important to have a small stockpile of non-perishable food, potable water and/or water purification tablets, and an alternate heat source (small oil heater) in a rubbermaid bin in your dwelling in case of any disaster, natural or man-made. At least if you were trapped in your house due to events happening around you, you would be able to provide for your family for a few days without having to rely on any en-masse assistance. We Canucks have a great webpage for Emergency Preparedness: click HERE (http://www.getprepared.ca/index_e.asp) to read up on it; a sample list can be found HERE (http://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/english/pub_security/emo/esk.html).

Also, when people are under duress they panic, and panic spreads through crowds like wildfire, so it may at times be locigal to stay away from densely populated areas, urban or otherwise. It's like the 'telephone game' as rumours of what will and won't happen only further irritate people who are already upset, angry, etc. Again, I'm not talking paranoia - I'm saying that if/when the unthinkable happens, what are your plans for your family to be safe and provided for? Having a pre-destined safe place to go should you have to leave your dwelling for any reason helps to ensure your family's safety in a time of disorder. Grabbing your emergency bin, (I always keep mine right by my camping supplies) gives you necessities at your fingertips should the unthinkable arise.

I know this post isnt following the original intend of this thread, but since it kinda falls along the margins, it hopefully falls into place. In any case, it's always those inividuals that plan for the unpredicted that are the ones who are around to tell their tales of survival after the worst has passed.

[12voltman59]

Moto--I was just bringing up some of the capabilities that Blackwater already has and is developing--

I did try to go back and recall where I heard or read the interview with one or several military/intelligence type anaylist types that had brought up their concern about Blackwater and their capabilites----when or if I can recall who what source that interview appeared --I will go and post later--

These people or persons did not mention the armored carrier--I just happened to catch the episode of "Future Weapons" on The Military Channel---the show was basicallly a big advertisement for Blackwater and their capabilities.

Sure, it might seem to be falling into the camp of being a "conspiracy kook" in talking about Blackwater in this way--but the creator of Blackwater, Erik Prince comes from a family that has long ties with the business/corporate/right wing politics elite.

This is lifted from a web site about Erik Prince: Erik Prince is the founder of private military corporation Blackwater USA.[1]

Prince is a former Navy Seal and a "billionaire right-wing fundamentalist Christian from a powerful Michigan Republican family. A major Republican campaign contributor, he interned in the White House of President George H.W. Bush and campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 1992. He founded the mercenary firm Blackwater USA in 1997 with Gary Jackson, another former Navy SEAL."[2]

Prince's father, Edgar Prince, and Gary Bauer started the Family Research Council, where Prince interned. Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is a former chair of the Michigan Republican Party.[2]

Here is a good NYTimes article on him:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/washington/08prince.html

Here is a very good six-part article done on Blackwater by The Viginian-Pilot newspaper.

http://hamptonroads.com/node/66331

It does give me pause that not only is there Blackwater International--there are other similar companies that are actually bigger in this field than Blackwater--they just don't have as high of a profile--I just don't like the idea that we have this form of "outsourcing and privatization" of things that our military/inteligence branches should be doing----

I do not think that is wrong to hold a healthy skepticism and concern that such companies are out there doing their thing---I guess it's Ok as long as their capabilities are directed to our "protection" but history is full of examples of how such concentrations, relative to their time and places, of power and capabilities, became a beast that came back to bite the master--to not hold such concerns is unwise and does not take history in account--

I thihk that a tight, tight leash needs to be put on these pit bulls---and God forbid that we do have another terrorist attack on US soil equal to or surpassing that of 9/11---I think that in the name of being safe--such an attack would serve to scare enough people in this country that in their desire to be safe-- they would be freely willing to ceede even more rights and freedoms in order to "be safe."

If such a thing were to come to pass---no doubt---companies like Blackwater would be there to "provide security" in our cities and towns---once they are embedded--it would be hard to undo that---

I think that we need to have the awareness that there are companies out there like Blackwater and the things they do----and to keep at least an eye on them--to be totally trusting that they are beneficient----I think that is ill advised.

I think that a healthy degree of skepticism about them is a good thing and is not being paranoid.

[the mage]

Being prepared for a disaster is never foolish.
We were powerless here for a couple of days in the blackout but were fine.
I am prepared.
I could not have done as well as my friends in Quebec at that time, they went 21 days with no electricity. They are very prepared and survived fine.

Good debate on a topic that demonstrates how much is taken for granted in America. Make no mistake, the police/military business is in full working order in private hands. They do not answer to politicians. Or a lot of laws too it seems....
It seem that some people just don't want to know doesn't it....
Any topic can be made spiteful.

[the mage]

This note is along the same sentiments of the be prepared idea. It's for those who note such things around the world that run in the back ground, not covered in the current headlines.

Do a search on Bird Flu latest news in particular, India....the words "out of control" were used in one article I read, and "pandemic" is being tossed out there too.. Just a FYI ...if this goes bad it will play further hell on the economy.

[12voltman59]

This note is along the same sentiments of the be prepared idea. It's for those who note such things around the world that run in the back ground, not covered in the current headlines.

Do a search on Bird Flu latest news in particular, India....the words "out of control" were used in one article I read, and "pandemic" is being tossed out there too.. Just a FYI ...if this goes bad it will play further hell on the economy.

One thing is for sure in regards to the possiblity of an outbreak of the "Bird Flu"-this is not something that is theroretical or conjecture---it is taken very seriously and contingencies are being undertaken by the governments of the world for WHEN, this becomes a major problem.
From what I have read and seen in news reports, as yet the Avian flu virus---officially the Avian A/H5N1 flu virus, has not actually mutated such that it can directly infect human beings----at present there has to be an intermediate means of transferring the virus from an animal---ususally some sort of bird such as a duck, chicken or goose---

According to the UN's WHO (World Health Organization) the Avian Flu is currently at "Stage 3" threat level.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/phase/en/index.html

One of these days--our luck is most likely going to run out and this virus will be able to make the direct jump from animals to humans and then we will be off and running with this health crisis----

There is not much that can be done to prepare for it---they are ramping up production of the drug "TAMIFLU" which does provide relief from other flu virus symptoms. It is not known if TAMIFLU will be able to do much for the Avian A/H5N1 virus at this point. They cannot make a flu vaccination for H5N1 until after it has broken out and spread amongst the human population and it will take a decent amount of time to make large quantities of the vaccination, then get it distributed and adminstered to the general population---it will take about 18 months at minimum from the time the pandemic fires up until the vaccination is ready--by that time it will have already taken many lives----

The health people are saying that this virus has a high degree of fatalites in humans--of the 353 lab identified cases of Avian Flu thus far--221 of those cases were fatal---
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/country/cases_table_2008_01_24/en/index.html

For those of us in the US--here is how the government forsees this situation developing and how they plan to deal with it:
http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/federal/fedresponsestages.html

WHEN this flu pandemic comes-it is going to affect nearly everyone on the planet at some point and in some fashion--nearly every single person, if they themselves do not die--will know at least one person who is close to them who will die---and it will impact the economy from the local to global levels.

It might be that all we talk about here on this site is going to be of little concern when this thing hits and in the time after it finally "burns itself out."

I saw a documentary recently in which they said that medical researchers now have strong evidence the breakout of polio was a residual effect of the 1918 Flu Pandemic, so even when this next one is done with the pandemic part--it will no doubt lead to some as yet, unforseen lingering health threats.

More information and definition of what a "pandemic" is:
http://www.pandemicflu.gov/general/

Some basic info from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm