Looking for some insight

[biazcouple]

This is probably not the right place to do this, but I feel I am out of options.

My story, I am a bisexual man married to a bisexual woman. We have been together for almost 13 years. The love we share for each other and our children has been the greatest gift that I have ever known. Greater than I ever thought I could dare hope for.

At the moment my wife is involved with Lisa, a lesbian woman, they say that they are in love. Lisa does not want wife to have a physical relationship with me, and for the past few weeks, we have not. I cant help but feel that everything that is going on here is an attempt at convincing my wife that she is gay and not bi. Lisa wants a monogamous relationship with my wife.

She is on the rebound, and my wife is so wonderful, people cant help but be captivated by her. I know this is a part of the equation. I am hurt and angry that it has gone this far. My wife asks me to try and see it from her point of view, and I have. Honestly, I would never allowed myself to jeopardize my marriage.

I don't know what to do. I can handle my wife having meaningful relationships with women sexual or not. I don't think I can handle me having a meaningful non sexual relationship with my wife, without the closure of a divorce.

So if there is anyone who may have been through a situation like this, and has any words of wisdom. I could sure use all the help I can get.
Thanks
Daniel :(

[the mage]

The outside partner has opened your wife up to gay sex, and it will be exciting, but is she prepared for the reality of a gay lifestyle?

You'll need to ask her and your self some tough questions about you future lives together.

If she is a closeted gay you cannot change her back to hetero.
If she's Bi she is not allowed to go one excluding you from living a full life either..

You must look after your child's interest's too.

Best of luck ....

[Uneedhands]

This is probably not the right place to do this, but I feel I am out of options.

My story, I am a bisexual man married to a bisexual woman. We have been together for almost 13 years. The love we share for each other and our children has been the greatest gift that I have ever known. Greater than I ever thought I could dare hope for.

At the moment my wife is involved with Lisa, a lesbian woman, they say that they are in love. Lisa does not want wife to have a physical relationship with me, and for the past few weeks, we have not. I cant help but feel that everything that is going on here is an attempt at convincing my wife that she is gay and not bi. Lisa wants a monogamous relationship with my wife.

She is on the rebound, and my wife is so wonderful, people cant help but be captivated by her. I know this is a part of the equation. I am hurt and angry that it has gone this far. My wife asks me to try and see it from her point of view, and I have. Honestly, I would never allowed myself to jeopardize my marriage.

I don't know what to do. I can handle my wife having meaningful relationships with women sexual or not. I don't think I can handle me having a meaningful non sexual relationship with my wife, without the closure of a divorce.

So if there is anyone who may have been through a situation like this, and has any words of wisdom. I could sure use all the help I can get.
Thanks
Daniel :(

I think this lesbian usurper needs to fuck off. It's someone's marriage she's jeprodizing. If I were you I would stand up and tell your wife to drop that bitch or get dropped like a tonn of bricks herself. Why do people get married if they can't be loyal!? What's the point? If your wife is straying, cut her loose, and let her regret it. Tell her she is fickle, not worthy, and you will not sit on your hands while she strips you of your dignity

[Uneedhands]

...Lisa does not want YOUR WIFE to have a physical relationship WITH YOU?! This is pissing me off and I don't even know any of you. This Lisa scum has no right to ask such a thing, she should feel priveledged with what you allowed. Just speak up and end it with an ultimatum, and if she chooses the evil homewrecking dyke over you; walk away and don't look back. Don't cry to her, don't discuss it for hours and hours, just drop the bomb and fly away. "your kids, chosen life partner, and honor, ...or an evil dyke homewrecker and the stigma of being fickle." ....or something like that. Then tell her it's no longer open for discussion. Provide a timeframe to make her descision and/or chase the vulture away. If it all works out ask her not to get involved with vampires who would jeopardise your relationship ever again. There's no respect, no honor, and no justice in this world it seems.

[welickit]

Unfortunately we have been through this more than once with friends. Believe it or not it is just as hard on friends. You need to pull the plug on them or else let it all go. Either learn to talk with your wife and get your affairs in order or bail out. Either way it isn't going to be easy. Sounds like she found what was missing in her life. We know it is a hard bullet for you to bite but you need to look in the mirror. Take it from a couple as opposed to a male answer. What you do is up to you and we wish you well.:bipride:

[The Barefoot Contess]

It seems to me that your wife wants to have her cake and eat it too... it might seems like she cannot make up her mind, is she is still around you, but the reality is that she has: is she is aware of your feelings, and still does what the other woman wants, then I am afraid she has chosen her, and she could possibly be relying on the fact that you might not dare to leave her.
I know this is a hard situation, but if it is one which makes you uncomfortable, or feel betrayed, and you don't want to be in that position, then I would suggest that you leave her. I know that you love her and value your marriage, but is she does not share those feelings, then she is not worthy of your love.

[Uneedhands]

... watch this video and cheer up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au8PhQ87cFw

[biupstateny]

You said it yourself...this other woman is on the rebound and any realtionship will do for her right now, and she will take and keep anything she can get. We all know that rebounds don't think about what they truly want or what they are doing, they are just filling the void of what they lost. You need to put your foot down and confront your wife. There are no excuses here or "please see it my way", she is YOUR wife and you need to control the situation before you get hurt, and your children are hurt. If your wife is confused with who she is, then she needs some sort of counseling. Don't throw away 13 years of happiness over another woman. If your realtionship is as stong and meaningful as you say, then it is worth fighting for....is your wife chooses to stay with this woman and not fullfill your needs as a man and as you HUSBAND...you really need to think about what you want to do. But nip it in the bud before (like someone said above) this other woman strips you of your dignity.....

[leizy]

it sounds like there are lots of things you and your wife need to talk about - what is the nature of your relationship?, how will you guys manage nonmonogamy? where do you guys see your relationship with each other, and with other people, going? maybe your wife is enjoying this woman's attention, but doesn't see it the way you do, that she's threatening your relationship and trying to steal her. many couples work out a "veto" agreement, so that one can veto the relationship of the other, in just such cases...however, bringing that in now, after the fact is probably a nuclear bomb that will drive your wife away.

the more you act jealous, the more you'll confirm the image that the other woman is more supportive and accepting of your wife than you are.

try to spend more quality time with your wife, even if the other woman is there (and even without sex). stay in charge of your emotions. you can share with your wife that you miss her, that you love her, and you're glad she has this relationship, but that you'd also really like to work to make your relationship solid and healthy. you've probably told your wife you think the other woman is trying to exclude you and break up your relationship, so you don' need to say that again. if you're right, she'll remember it. if you're wrong, you've strengthened your relationship -

the number one thing to do is to not be a jealous threatened asshole, even if you are - i would be too. but you'll create a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you act that way.

try to find a gay/poly counselor, to talk with your wife with, if you can. good luck
david

[Uneedhands]

it sounds like there are lots of things you and your wife need to talk about - what is the nature of your relationship?, how will you guys manage nonmonogamy? where do you guys see your relationship with each other, and with other people, going? maybe your wife is enjoying this woman's attention, but doesn't see it the way you do, that she's threatening your relationship and trying to steal her. many couples work out a "veto" agreement, so that one can veto the relationship of the other, in just such cases...however, bringing that in now, after the fact is probably a nuclear bomb that will drive your wife away.

the more you act jealous, the more you'll confirm the image that the other woman is more supportive and accepting of your wife than you are.

try to spend more quality time with your wife, even if the other woman is there (and even without sex). stay in charge of your emotions. you can share with your wife that you miss her, that you love her, and you're glad she has this relationship, but that you'd also really like to work to make your relationship solid and healthy. you've probably told your wife you think the other woman is trying to exclude you and break up your relationship, so you don' need to say that again. if you're right, she'll remember it. if you're wrong, you've strengthened your relationship -

the number one thing to do is to not be a jealous threatened asshole, even if you are - i would be too. but you'll create a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you act that way.

try to find a gay/poly counselor, to talk with your wife with, if you can. good luck
david

I agree with alot of this, but it sounds like you want him to dance on eggshells. I agree that keeping one's cool is most important, not being an asshole and all that ....but don't prolong your unfair treatment, and don't jump through hoops. You are well within your rights to demand an immediate end if you wish.

[artjock]

Well, I realize that I am just another guy and that perhaps other couple's comments may be more appropriate. I wonder what agreement that you have had with your wife about partners outside of your marriage? You haven't made any statement about that. This is not working for you or you wouldn't be posting here. Tell you wife that the other woman's proposal will not work for you. Ask her what she wants to do since this is not working for you. Put it back in her court. Instead of leaving her, if she accepts the other woman and doesn't want you physically then tell her that she will have to be the one to leave. You should stay with your kids and give them suppport as you wife will have lost her centre of reason. She will have to decide if she wants to leave you and your kids. Make her make the decision. Present yourself not as just the husband but as her family.

[proseros]

For the most part I agree with most of the very ill sentiment towards this person. This is a VERY SERIOUS issue with the gay community that crosses lines of fundamental morality which I cannot tolerate-seeming to want the entire world to be like they are.

I have had this happen to me, gay men and women usurping a relationship and attemtping to convince one or the other party that "he" or "she" is no good for you-Either because they would rather have you with noone if not with them, or since they cannot even accept relationships between men and women long enough to resist trying surrepticiously to ruin them.

This in my opinion is soley on account of the psychology of 'gay' socialization being apprached as a crusade to convert and which has more to do with lust and obscession than real human love.

This really upsets me because I myself own th experienc to a degree and NO you absolutely SHOULD NOT REMAIN PASSIVE ABOUT THIS SITUATION AND SHOULD STEP IN TO CORRECT IT IMMEDIATELY.

IF SHE WANTS A MONOGOMOUS EXCLUSIVELY GAY RELATIONSHIP SHE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING INTO 13 YEAR MARRIAGES FOR IT. SHE NEEDS STEP OFF AND GO GET WHAT SHE WANTS THE WAY SHE WANTS IT AND NOT RUIN SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO CONFORM TO HER IDEALS.

I've said all I am going to say and reading about this has not made me happy because it is displays a malignance and social ineptitude that goes well beyond lifestyle and introduces an anti-social element no less noxious than the lurking of child molesters and rapists.

Kick her to the curb as FAST as you can.

[FalconAngel]

As a couple, with one partner in the relationship who is bi, we can say that this Lisa woman has to go.

Of course Lisa wants a committed relationship with your wife. All anyone really wants is someone to love them, but that does NOT give her license to destroy someone else's marriage to get that.

Your wife is in a relationship where her primary partner is YOU. All other relationships are secondary to the marriage. Of course, the same rule applies to your male lovers as well.

Now if there are other problems in the relationship, then that is for the two of you to sort out and Lisa needs to keep her personal agenda out of it.

No matter what you do outside of the marriage, the marriage is primary and most important.

In addition to that, as long as everything else in the marriage is good, then this Lisa woman is doing damage that may never be able to be repaired. She may say that she wants your wife to divorce you for her. That is damaging to the kids, even more so than to you.
Children of divorce do not fair as well as children of complete and emotionally healthy family relationships.
Sounds like this Lia woman wants to ruin that for her own selfish desires.
If she really loves your wife, then she would consider that. But she only thinks that she loves your wife.

As you said, she is coming off of a breakup. What Lisa needs to do, and what is the most emotionally healthy thing to do, is to play the field before trying to settle down in another relationship that will fall apart as soon as she possesses the object of her affections, in this case, you wife.

We have a lesbian friend who I have known for more than 20 years. She thinks that my wife and I make a great couple (she told me that if I split with this one, she'll kill me :P).

But every time my friend breaks up with someone, I tell her the same thing; that she needs to play the field and not jump into another relationship. But she goes ahead and ignores that advice, and sure enough, in a few weeks or months, there she is again in another breakup.

Your wife needs to cut all ties to this woman and not fall in with someone who is looking for a monogamous relationship with her at the expense of your marriage.

If this Lisa really loved your wife, then she would understand that the marriage comes first and her relationship with your wife comes second. NOT the other way around.

Of course she could be one of those lesbians that thinks that Bi women need to be "recruited" or "converted" for lack of better words to being Lesbian, because maybe she doesn't believe in Bisexuality.
That could be part of the problem, too.

[FerociousFeline]

First of all I would like to express my sorrow for you that you are having to experience this pain. Words can never convey the feelings of betrayal and abandonment that is experienced when someone you trusted shows themselves to be UNWORTHY of your trust.

As I see it, it is very important that you approach this whole situation with a "hands off" attitude. There are likely several dynamics going on through all this and it looks sensitive enough to completely blow up in your face if you cut the wrong wire.

What I mean by that is this:

First of all you have one of those women who is a dyke who it sounds like has the gender identification of being male herself. This type of woman causes my fur to stand on end. One of their primary behaviors which make them easy to identify is their constant overt aggressive tendencies and their compulsive desire to validate themselves by going head to head with a real male...over a woman. Of course, this is where the difference between the fantasy of gender role swapping and the reality of a million years of evolution come into play. I'm sure there are plenty of rough tough bitches out there who can hold their own in the battle for assertiveness, but the fact is, that the male of the species has been born and bred for the purpose of going to battle and making war. This degree of assertiveness/aggressiveness will always be the ultimate "penis envy" for women who wish to emulate traditional male behavior. As such, the women who feel the need to validate themselves by demonstrating their ability to "be a superior partner" to the woman they are trying to steal usually are pretty much self centered and self serving women which necessarily means that they are by default NOT the superior partner for the partner in question.

Your wife is likely excited, confused, torn, and is being manipulated by the woman who is trying desperately to reaffirm her own power by demonstrating her power to you, your wife and ultimately, herself.

This is why it is most likely that your best shot at winning back and keeping the heart of your woman is to do the exact opposite of what this uberscumbag would expect. You have to suppress the urge to make mincemeat out of this warrior wannabee and you have to show the inner strength of a true warrior. The strength of relinquishing control.

IF....and this is a very big IF. Your wife still has presence of mind enough to really HEAR your request.....the best thing for all three of you is to stay apart for a while. Wife, husband, intruding piece of shit. If you can make your wife see that the time she has invested in your family is worth at LEAST a good size "time-out" then you have a chance at saving this situation.
If your wife AND the POS agree not to see each other for a specified period of time, and you agree to the same, then you will have created a space for your wife to stop everything and contemplate what it is that she is getting ready to do.

Your best and only hope is for her to realize that this movement towards this woman is at best, a rash and immature move. Hopefully, with sufficient distance from the both of you, she will come to her senses and realize that.

If she doesn't, then you my man are far better off without this woman. You deserve much better treatment than you have received from her and this whole situation serves to prove to YOU .....that you are a strong and loving man capable of loving yourself and your children regardless of what errors your wife may make.

I hope this helps and I wish you strength, patience, and the inner knowledge that YOU.............are the MAN.

FF

[The Barefoot Contess]

These are some random thoughts suggested by different posts in this thread. I would elaborate more, but this is long enough as it is. I apologize if my language is too harsh or people get offended.

1. Your problem is a question of trust, not one of social or even personal dignity. Being cheated on, or being denied “legitimate sex” in no way diminishes you or makes you unworthy. That is a social stigma related to the idea of “being a man”, which is socially constructed and based on stereotypes and a patriarchal order of things. Your dignity has nothing to do with your wife’s behavior.
2. Your wife can say “no”. Being married does not mean that people have to have sex. If your wife does not want to have sex, then you have to respect that. Why do we assume that sex is a right within marriage? I mean, if a woman or your girlfriend says she does not want to have sex with you, you are supposed to respect it, otherwise you would be considered a rapist if you force her. Now, only because that woman is our wife you have the right to have sex with her anytime? No way. In this respect, this thread is utterly sexist: a wife is supposed to “fulfill your needs as a man and husband”?
3. The other woman. Of course, she is always to blame, and the expressions used here to define her (“intruding piece of shit”, “lesbian usurper”, “scum”, “evil homewrecking dyke”, “vampire”... she is even compared to rapists and child molesters) fall nothing short of a witch hunting trial . Whenever a woman becomes involved in someone else’s marriage, she is to blame. I find that fascinating, but guess what, the one who made a promise to be faithful was in this case the wife. How your wife came to be seen as the victim is just beyond my comprehension. If anyone is to blame, it is not Lisa: she has no commitments and has betrayed no one. She happens to want the same thing many people want: a monogamous relationship. That you are married is really not her problem, and I don’t think she owes any more respect to a married couple than to any other couple. That does not cross any “lines of fundamental morality”.
4. Evolutionary theory does not mean people are born one way and cannot change. In reality, evolution is all about change. The fact that men have traditionally been more aggressive does not mean or imply anything. If we accept that, then we should also accept that since women have the capacity to be pregnant and breastfeed, they have to, and there is something wrong with them if they don’t want to. I am sorry, but that is not true. You might be 7 feet tall, but that does not mean you have to play basketball, right?
5. Why do so many people consider that love within marriage is more legitimate, mature and developed than outside of marriage? Why are the wife’s feelings for Lisa immature and those for the husband more respectable? What gives marriage that aura of respectability, sanctity and honor that we assume is lacking outside of it? Marriage has no more legitimacy than other relationship, and its status is socially sanctioned by the state. It is a construction that has been turned into a constituent part of being “normal”, and since being normal is what most people want, anyone outside those boundaries is less that us, the righteous ones. “Marriage sanctifies some couples at the expense of others. It is selective legitimacy. This is a necessary implication of the institution. To a couple that gets married, marriage just looks ennobling. Stand outside it for a second and you see the implication: if you don’t have it, you and your relationships are less worthy. Without this corollary effect, marriage would not be able to endow anybody’s life with significance. The ennobling and the demeaning go together. Marriage does one by virtue of the other. Marriage, in short, discriminates.” (Michael Warner. The Problem with Normal)
6. It does so in another way. It allows the state to regulate sexuality. Much of what is taken to be morality, respectability or decorum is, in practice, a way of regulating sexual pleasures and relations.
7. Some posts here are terribly homophobic. Let’s keep them in mind when we accuse gay sites of being biphobic (“gay men and women usurping a relationship and attemtping to convince one or the other party that "he" or "she" is no good for you-Either because they would rather have you with noone if not with them, or since they cannot even accept relationships between men and women long enough to resist trying surrepticiously to ruin them. This in my opinion is soley on account of the psychology of 'gay' socialization being apprached as a crusade to convert and which has more to do with lust and obscession than real human love”).
8. Lisa is accused of being selfish because she does not take into consideration your children or the status of your marriage. It has been said that children of divorced couples have a harder time than children of married couples. I don’t even know where to start with this one. In most cases, children are able to understand divorce much better than living with a married couple who do not want to be together. Staying married “because of the children” is a mistake that hurts children more than a civilized divorce. FalconAngel says: “children of divorce do not fair as well as children of complete and emotionally healthy family relationships”. What does “complete” mean? One has to have a partner to have children? Should single people then be not allowed to adopt? There are different types of families, and heteronormativity is just one of them, and deserves no more respect or legal recognition than others.

[proseros]

I would in this instance debate that responses in to this situation have anything to with homophobia more than it has to do with BEHAVIOR- nor anything to do exclusively with women or men of any kind except those that perpetrate this kind of behavior.

Unkind as it may sound social vampirism is real. It may not be malicious, but it points to an covertly anti-social way of regarding other kinds of space than your own. All the points made here including yours - I am in total agreement with everything above; though each given equal consideration in contextual application (again, in case of kinds of space).

All that has been rebutted rightfully defends CHOICE, and this -an oversight on my part, because some checking the ego against matching tyranny- I applaud. Thank you Barefoot Contess (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/member.php?u=68562).

I cannot read minds. I do not know what real conditions may have influenced these choices or resolutions, and I am not necessarily concerned with this because well, it is none of my concern. I am only observing the appearance of a behavior I have loosely transferred the experience of personal survival as an inclusively probable reality.

And as for similar observations, does identify a mode of behavior in defect of its relation (to other kinds of space than one's own).

Perhaps it is simply a distinction being made between cultural entities, like belching and farting after Japanese dinner.

I do not mean to come off as homophobic, nor do I believe that those who've objected in this thread as strongly harbor such hardness themselves. I can only comment for myself though, with vigilance of an certain ethic that does not tolerate the behavior in question and accordingly recognizes the influence of harm potentialised by an appearant ignorance or disregard for natural sanctities.

Though our differences divide us; we shall not shed our blood on this ground!

Comedian Eddie Griffith's infamous monolouge illustrates the ethical perspective in question here, notwithstanding again, gender or orientation in this instance, as an issue of personal self-esteem and honesty with onesself about how one has themself utilized life's opportunities.

I do not dare ask the Sun and Moon to cease shed their light upon the Earth merely that I am want of Darkness.

[Uneedhands]

These are some random thoughts suggested by different posts in this thread. I would elaborate more, but this is long enough as it is. I apologize if my language is too harsh or people get offended.

1. Your problem is a question of trust, not one of social or even personal dignity. Being cheated on, or being denied “legitimate sex” in no way diminishes you or makes you unworthy. That is a social stigma related to the idea of “being a man”, which is socially constructed and based on stereotypes and a patriarchal order of things. Your dignity has nothing to do with your wife’s behavior.
2. Your wife can say “no”. Being married does not mean that people have to have sex. If your wife does not want to have sex, then you have to respect that. Why do we assume that sex is a right within marriage? I mean, if a woman or your girlfriend says she does not want to have sex with you, you are supposed to respect it, otherwise you would be considered a rapist if you force her. Now, only because that woman is our wife you have the right to have sex with her anytime? No way. In this respect, this thread is utterly sexist: a wife is supposed to “fulfill your needs as a man and husband”?
3. The other woman. Of course, she is always to blame, and the expressions used here to define her (“intruding piece of shit”, “lesbian usurper”, “scum”, “evil homewrecking dyke”, “vampire”... she is even compared to rapists and child molesters) fall nothing short of a witch hunting trial . Whenever a woman becomes involved in someone else’s marriage, she is to blame. I find that fascinating, but guess what, the one who made a promise to be faithful was in this case the wife. How your wife came to be seen as the victim is just beyond my comprehension.hat does not cross any “lines of fundamental morality”. If anyone is to blame, it is not Lisa: she has no commitments and has betrayed no one. She happens to want the same thing many people want: a monogamous relationship. That you are married is really not her problem, and I don’t think she owes any more respect to a married couple than to any other couple. T
4. Evolutionary theory does not mean people are born one way and cannot change. In reality, evolution is all about change. The fact that men have traditionally been more aggressive does not mean or imply anything. If we accept that, then we should also accept that since women have the capacity to be pregnant and breastfeed, they have to, and there is something wrong with them if they don’t want to. I am sorry, but that is not true. You might be 7 feet tall, but that does not mean you have to play basketball, right?
5. Why do so many people consider that love within marriage is more legitimate, mature and developed than outside of marriage? Why are the wife’s feelings for Lisa immature and those for the husband more respectable? What gives marriage that aura of respectability, sanctity and honor that we assume is lacking outside of it? Marriage has no more legitimacy than other relationship, and its status is socially sanctioned by the state. It is a construction that has been turned into a constituent part of being “normal”, and since being normal is what most people want, anyone outside those boundaries is less that us, the righteous ones. “Marriage sanctifies some couples at the expense of others. It is selective legitimacy. This is a necessary implication of the institution. To a couple that gets married, marriage just looks ennobling. Stand outside it for a second and you see the implication: if you don’t have it, you and your relationships are less worthy. Without this corollary effect, marriage would not be able to endow anybody’s life with significance. The ennobling and the demeaning go together. Marriage does one by virtue of the other. Marriage, in short, discriminates.” (Michael Warner. The Problem with Normal)
6. It does so in another way. It allows the state to regulate sexuality. Much of what is taken to be morality, respectability or decorum is, in practice, a way of regulating sexual pleasures and relations.
7. Some posts here are terribly homophobic. Let’s keep them in mind when we accuse gay sites of being biphobic (“gay men and women usurping a relationship and attemtping to convince one or the other party that "he" or "she" is no good for you-Either because they would rather have you with noone if not with them, or since they cannot even accept relationships between men and women long enough to resist trying surrepticiously to ruin them. This in my opinion is soley on account of the psychology of 'gay' socialization being apprached as a crusade to convert and which has more to do with lust and obscession than real human love”).
8. Lisa is accused of being selfish because she does not take into consideration your children or the status of your marriage. It has been said that children of divorced couples have a harder time than children of married couples. I don’t even know where to start with this one. In most cases, children are able to understand divorce much better than living with a married couple who do not want to be together. Staying married “because of the children” is a mistake that hurts children more than a civilized divorce. FalconAngel says: “children of divorce do not fair as well as children of complete and emotionally healthy family relationships”. What does “complete” mean? One has to have a partner to have children? Should single people then be not allowed to adopt? There are different types of families, and heteronormativity is just one of them, and deserves no more respect or legal recognition than others.

1. I agree, but it's insulting none the less.

2. Of course his wife can say no. I hope no one suggested otherwise. Why "we" assume sex is a right of marriage? ...I don't. Personally I think marriage is stupid anyway.

3. It sounds like they agreed to start this, and that the "other" woman is not only aware that they are married, but purposly trying to dishonor them. She is to blame for that, not only is it weak, it's malicious; she just can't stop herself from causing strife in someone elses life by backing off when her feelings become too strong. She Knew they were married to begin with. The wife is not a victim, no one is really, they all concented, It sounds like she has a decision to make; stay or go. She chose marriage along time ago... it should be easy. Unless... there's something we don't know. Oh ya ...you forgot vulture.

4. ...HUH?!

5. Because the church and state told them to. Yes, but the idea of marriage is much older than the pathetic remnant of that idea installed by that famous duo thousands of years ago to control empires, and what's left of it is only less. People get married by Elvis now. None the less, they chose to make a commitment that is supposedly spiritually binding and definately legally binding. Whether you like the idea or not it's none of your business.
I don't like the idea of marriage, but I would never try to mess with one. It's dishonorable behaviour.
Anyone who feels that their relationship is less than a marriage, is brainwashed. You can't blame marriage itself, or the married couple for that. A good place to start would be Most of the worlds religeons I think. I stress most, not all. Judeo/christian/muslim.... I don't know much about the far eastern ones, but I do know they have some severe issues with equality in places like China, Burma, and India, probably elsewhere also.
I'm sure not all people who get married do it just to feel "significant". For one person to be "noble" does not require another to be "unworthy" (unless you use the class distinction meaning, which wouldn't make sense because anyone can wed, and being wed does not grant one title. but that type of noble would require probably at least several families to be "unworthy"). If you let someone else's marriage make you feel insignificant, you're insecure and probably brainwashed, undesirable traits at best. Who's to blame?

6. There's your witch hunt.

7. I'm not homophobic, most of the girls I know call themselves dykes, and have no problem with me using the word. I don't do it hatefully. and my advice would be exactly the same no matter what the dynamic. I have no emotional attachment to any of the people involved. if it was a girl or a guy trying to convince the guy to stop having sex with the wife and come with themselves. It's the exact same thing. No sexism. No homophobia.

8. If there are problems between you and your wife, then her point makes some sense, but isn't your wife just torn between two lovers? One of which is being a dishonorable witch.

[Eddie altamonte]

As an outsider going only by was was posted I can only say this, "There is a hell of a lot more going on between you two that is not being discussed and you may not be aware. The fact that she has put you in this situation is an example of lack of communication and a total violation of boundries. Because we fuck other people and open our lives to outsiders does not mean the commitment and bond of marrage is flimsy on the contrary the trust to allow us to share these moment needs to be strongest. All trust and respect in this relationship is tenurous and at best fragile. This needs to be made clear. The first rule is nothing would ever be done that would make either party of the relationship uneasy or slighted. It never should have came to this. A stop of this needs to be immediate The relationship not with the 3rd person but between you two needs to be fully re-evaluated. An open sincere no holds barred conversation is a must. Is she willing to terminate the marrage, are you willing to walk away if she desires to continue to place her lover's need above yours. What will you do with the children? Tell her you still love her but not enough to let someone outside of the marrage to dictate the terms of yor relationship. And Please...leave all bullshit out of this conversation. Remember you can screw 1000 people and still be committed to the one you love you can be abstinate and be totally unfaithfull

[proseros]

It does not matter to me that you are married or not. I do not know what marriage is or supposed or was intended to be or to mean and it really does not matter in the material scheme of things, but the fact remains that this communion was getting along fine FOR 13 YEARS until "Lisa" came along.

The point is that it was there long before "Lisa" and the point is that "Lisa" is completely foreign to anything relevant to the 13 years this communion has existed and lasted. The point again is the BEHAVIOR AND THE ATTITUDE OF DISREGARDING OTHER KINDS OF SPACE FOR THE MERE SATISFACTION OF ACQUIRING SOMETHING THAT ONE APPARENTLY MAY LACK THE CONFIDENCE OR ETHIC TO FOSTER AND NUTURE ON THIER OWN.

It is "ready made" and requires no real work, no real effort, no real love; merely re-arranging and changing of scenery to satisfy misguided whim.

You do not meddle in 13 years of hard work, and blood and sweat and tears. If there is anything ill eased within this marriage then let it be up to the marriage to address it. But "Lisa" should not be the reason for two people who've spent so much time together not to ALWAYS want to be together no matter what. And THAT is why I say kick this person to the curb as quickly as possible because if she can do that to a 13 year relationship then there is something that has been going on -or not- in those 13 years that the two of you need to work out.

The cat might as well have persuaded your wife not to have sex with you.
"Lisa" is not important. "Lisa" can be anyone or anything. But no matter who or what it should NOT be able to disrupt or terminate 13 years of marriage.

You and your wife sir, whom I am sure love each other very much, have work to do.

[FalconAngel]

.........
8. Lisa is accused of being selfish because she does not take into consideration your children or the status of your marriage. It has been said that children of divorced couples have a harder time than children of married couples. I don’t even know where to start with this one. In most cases, children are able to understand divorce much better than living with a married couple who do not want to be together. Staying married “because of the children” is a mistake that hurts children more than a civilized divorce. FalconAngel says: “children of divorce do not fair as well as children of complete and emotionally healthy family relationships”. What does “complete” mean? One has to have a partner to have children? Should single people then be not allowed to adopt? There are different types of families, and heteronormativity is just one of them, and deserves no more respect or legal recognition than others.

We never said that they should stay together because of the children. We said that as long as there were no other issues that are irreparable, then they should do all that they can to save the marriage.
If there are other, not previously mentioned, issues that cannot be resolved then they should make the break up as clean and amicable as possible. For everyone involved.

As far as the children issue issue, I (Chris) am the father in a divorce with children issue. I have been a member of nearly a dozen different family rights and children's rights groups for almost 8 years, now. I have seen both sides of the arguments for and against shared parenting and the fatally flawed DCF and child support systems.

I am intimately familiar with that particular issue.

On the issue of decent respect for the relationship that they are in. No decent person tries to break up a working relationship for the purpose of stealing one or the other member of that relationship.

No, this Lisa person is not the only one responsible, but chances are, she is manipulating the woman in this relationship, even though she is equally responsible with Lisa......barring any other relationship issues between the two partners of this couple.
Either way, this Lisa needs to butt out and find herself a single woman to get involved with. This way, when the relationship fails, and it will, she will not have destroyed an entire family for nothing.

[diamond_tether]

All we would do is ask you to think about what you told us all.

At it's most fundamental level marriage is about partnership. Right now your Wife is not being the partner she promised to be. Call her on that, and do it with love, not fear. She's asking you to consider her feelings - ask her to consider yours, because she isn't. At all. You aren't happy. Plain and simple.

This Lisa person is running game on your wife. It happens (with either sex). But how presumptuous, arrogant and cruel is it to ask someone to stop sleeping with their spouse of 13 years? We have no clue, but it's obvious you do. Let that really simmer on your heart for a few minutes. You have every right to ask your Wife why she's willing to make her partner suffer like this.

Whatever happens we wish you luck. We just hope your wife remembers that You are the one who's been supportive of who she's always been and wanted to be - not some play partner trying to mold her into their old girlfriend.

If you need an easy parallel to bring to her for illustrative purposes: ask her how she'd feel if you told her to stop seeing or having sex with this woman she 'loves'. Because that's exactly what's been done to you. And it's just as unfair.

[rockalicious]

First, the range of responses, the insight you have received, all have some very good points.Luckily, you now have the opportunity to pick through them and find what may apply to your personal situation, and hopefully find something to assist you in making a sound decision for your marriage and your family.

Now, I agree that it might as well have been the CAT... I can't begin to understand the dynamics of an open bisexual marriage.(please understand, this is not a label, just my way of describing the situation) I also feel that there is a lot of stock placed in the idea of "marriage" these days...even without the paper to prove it, in any relationship, there is a certain code, even if unspoken, that is understood between the partners in that relatonship. I believe that for a marriage to be that "open", ther must be a huge amount of trust, security, and honor for it to withstand the pressures that are certain to come with it.

The idea that a perfect union of 13 years has been destroyed is the basis for some of the strong words used against Lisa here...the union could not, in my opinion be taken down if it was that perfect. True, Lisa , in a perfect world would have a higher standard, but a baseline respect for the union of marriage would be required, and not all posess that. The respect for the union of her own marriage is what appears to be lacking here, on the part of your wife.

I have never been hurt by an unfaithful partner, and I am thankful, believe me. I don't have any past hurts clouding my view on this matter. The total disregard for your family must be painful for you, however, by opening up your marriage to this, you do have a share of the responsibility for this turn of events. I have told many women, if you make the choice to be with a woman, there is a possibility that your preference will forever be changed. Maybe you did not consider this as an outcome before, maybe you were blind-sided by this, but I can see how the physical preference could persuade your wife to only be with a woman, the focus on it being THIS woman seems to be fueling much of the objections posted here.

Best of luck to you in salvaging what you can from this unfortunate mess!!!:2cents:

[Seigun]

This is probably not the right place to do this, but I feel I am out of options.

My story, I am a bisexual man married to a bisexual woman. We have been together for almost 13 years. The love we share for each other and our children has been the greatest gift that I have ever known. Greater than I ever thought I could dare hope for.

At the moment my wife is involved with Lisa, a lesbian woman, they say that they are in love. Lisa does not want wife to have a physical relationship with me, and for the past few weeks, we have not. I cant help but feel that everything that is going on here is an attempt at convincing my wife that she is gay and not bi. Lisa wants a monogamous relationship with my wife.

She is on the rebound, and my wife is so wonderful, people cant help but be captivated by her. I know this is a part of the equation. I am hurt and angry that it has gone this far. My wife asks me to try and see it from her point of view, and I have. Honestly, I would never allowed myself to jeopardize my marriage.

I don't know what to do. I can handle my wife having meaningful relationships with women sexual or not. I don't think I can handle me having a meaningful non sexual relationship with my wife, without the closure of a divorce.

So if there is anyone who may have been through a situation like this, and has any words of wisdom. I could sure use all the help I can get.
Thanks
Daniel :(


These are my thoughts:

1. If your wife is exploring her bisexuality outside of your marriage with Lisa, then it should be understood that even though she is exploring, your (Her!) marriage comes first.
This seems like an experience that was *never* meant to interfere with your relationship with your wife (am I wrong?).


2. Lisa is very presumptuous to demand your wife not have a physical relationship with you. If anything, that should be an agreement between you and your wife, only. I feel that Lisa is thinking that by entering into a relationship with your wife, that she has equal importance in the life of your wife...

If your wife were single and simply dating you, that MIGHT be the case... but since you have a strong relationship, are married, have a family together, were/are agreeable as a couple, and agreed *together* that Lisa could attend to your wife, then Lisa is in fact a recipient of not only your wife's favor , but also yours. You have the right to disagree, and in fact, should voice your opinion.

If your wife feels that she is in love with Lisa, then of course you want to respect her feelings, but Lisa must understand that your agreement with your wife about her inclusion in your lives CAN be taken away.

This arrangement was not, I'm assuming, set up because of any discord between you and your wife, and so Lisa should behave like the guest that she is and not take advantage of her hosts (Either of them. In this situation, I can see how both you and your wife may be subject to being taken advantage of.)

Please make your feelings made clear to both of them--possibly together-- as soon as you are able. I hate to see your good nature taken advantage of by a third party. Perhaps this can be settled peacefully.

Basically, Lisa is an invited guest. In return for hospitality, a guest should be gracious and not make the lives of the hosts worse with her presence.

[noabody]

Such a horrible dilemma. I wanted to comment on love and commitment. It seems like monogamy and love are the biggest problems for a bisexual. How can you be monogamous and love a male and a female partner. If we are talking about the sex portion of bisexuality without emotional ties then a heterosexual man loves woman relationship with the bonus of same sex partners on the side could exist.

I've always wondered if bisexuality in it's purest form simply meant that you could love either sex. Is it possible to love a member of either sex equally or does one love always outweigh another? Do we associate love with commitment? Can we be committed to two people at the same time? I know this is about real people and not ideals but is it not the ideals that define the boundaries of right and wrong?

I love my wife and am wholly committed to her, but I've loved other women and men from time to time. Perhaps it is the point at which we feel we have adequate understanding of those dynamics that a solution is found.

[FalconAngel]

Such a horrible dilemma. I wanted to comment on love and commitment. It seems like monogamy and love are the biggest problems for a bisexual. How can you be monogamous and love a male and a female partner. If we are talking about the sex portion of bisexuality without emotional ties then a heterosexual man loves woman relationship with the bonus of same sex partners on the side could exist.

I've always wondered if bisexuality in it's purest form simply meant that you could love either sex. Is it possible to love a member of either sex equally or does one love always outweigh another? Do we associate love with commitment? Can we be committed to two people at the same time? I know this is about real people and not ideals but is it not the ideals that define the boundaries of right and wrong?

I love my wife and am wholly committed to her, but I've loved other women and men from time to time. Perhaps it is the point at which we feel we have adequate understanding of those dynamics that a solution is found.

Much of what you are talking about is what might be a closed loop relationship; where the partner that you have to play on your Bi side is part of the relationship as an addition to your existing relationship. This is when a person is committed to you and you are committed to both them and (primarily) your spouse. There are, of course variations of this as well as variations of the "open marriage" relationship. Above all else, however, is the commitment to the spouse.

In our case, there is nothing going on unless both of us like the partner that I choose to play with because my wife plays with us.
That is also the reason that we don't play with straight guys or Gay guys.

Too many people have assumed that an open marriage means that they are free to play and develop relationships outside the marriage. While at the core, sounding right, that is not exactly the truth. An open marriage allows the partners to have relationships outside of the marriage, but the primary relationship, which supersedes all others, is the marriage relationship. If the marriage is not the primary, overriding relationship, then why be married at all?

If we hooked up with some guy to play with us and he developed a relationship with either of us in which he tried to override our marriage, we would cut him out of the loop immediately. Our marriage comes first and foremost over and above my extra marital relationships.

Really, those rules apply to any committed relationship, whether a marriage, living as domestic partners or just committed to each other in any other way.

[FerociousFeline]

Seigun wrote:

These are my thoughts:

1. If your wife is exploring her bisexuality outside of your marriage with Lisa, then it should be understood that even though she is exploring, your (Her!) marriage comes first.
This seems like an experience that was *never* meant to interfere with your relationship with your wife (am I wrong?).
2. Lisa is very presumptuous to demand your wife not have a physical relationship with you. If anything, that should be an agreement between you and your wife, only. I feel that Lisa is thinking that by entering into a relationship with your wife, that she has equal importance in the life of your wife...

If your wife were single and simply dating you, that MIGHT be the case... but since you have a strong relationship, are married, have a family together, were/are agreeable as a couple, and agreed *together* that Lisa could attend to your wife, then Lisa is in fact a recipient of not only your wife's favor , but also yours. You have the right to disagree, and in fact, should voice your opinion.

If your wife feels that she is in love with Lisa, then of course you want to respect her feelings, but Lisa must understand that your agreement with your wife about her inclusion in your lives CAN be taken away.

This arrangement was not, I'm assuming, set up because of any discord between you and your wife, and so Lisa should behave like the guest that she is and not take advantage of her hosts (Either of them. In this situation, I can see how both you and your wife may be subject to being taken advantage of.)

Please make your feelings made clear to both of them--possibly together-- as soon as you are able. I hate to see your good nature taken advantage of by a third party. Perhaps this can be settled peacefully.

Basically, Lisa is an invited guest. In return for hospitality, a guest should be gracious and not make the lives of the hosts worse with her presence.

FalconAngel wrote:

Too many people have assumed that an open marriage means that they are free to play and develop relationships outside the marriage. While at the core, sounding right, that is not exactly the truth. An open marriage allows the partners to have relationships outside of the marriage, but the primary relationship, which supersedes all others, is the marriage relationship. If the marriage is not the primary, overriding relationship, then why be married at all?

If we hooked up with some guy to play with us and he developed a relationship with either of us in which he tried to override our marriage, we would cut him out of the loop immediately. Our marriage comes first and foremost over and above my extra marital relationships.

Really, those rules apply to any committed relationship, whether a marriage, living as domestic partners or just committed to each other in any other way.



Wow! Seriously. Hat's off to the three of you for these words of infinite wisdom!

The playground for exploring these types of relationships can have a LOT of hazards. With proper honor, respect and integrity these kinds of relationships CAN work well to the satisfaction of everyone involved.
They also have the potential to be extremely emotionally damaging to everyone involved if ground rules are not laid out and strictly observed.

Mistakes occur, but when they do it's absolutely critical that intention is clear and boundries are respected.

This is my take on the issue as well. Thanks for your input!

FF

[parkerbi]

YOU THREE SHOULD HAVE A TALK AND THEN MAKE THE FINAL DECISION. DON'T PUT THINGS ON HOLD.:)

[jeancarleo]

My parents divorced when I was 6. It was hard for my brothers and me. Now I know it was for the best since they weren't happy together. Lived with mom ever since, learned how to forgive my dad for kicking us out of the house when they separated.

Now my mom is happily married with another guy and so I have 4 more brothers. Dad married another woman too and so I have 3 more brothers.

I get along with all my stepdad, stepmom, dad and mom as well as with all my 9 brothers and sisters.

If one isn't happy with the relationship and the other is, the best thing to do is to end the relationship and look for happiness. You might find someone who would love you just like my mom and dad did. My parents spouses loved me and my 2 other brothers and we're all happy:)