Season of Good Will and All That

[darkeyes]

This week I may have lost 2 very good and and close friends. I dont know yet for sure, because as yet I am unsure as to how far they have decided to take things. I have not lost them because of upsetting them or any such crap, but because both feel that they can no longer reconcile their sexuality with their faith.

Avid readers of forums and participants in chat will know I have no time whatever for Gods or Holy Joe ethics. I do care for people and respect their personal beliefs no matter how how much I loathe and detest those inner beliefs (fascists and Nazis excluded.. that would be going too far). I try not to ridicule but am always prepared if they wish to debate those beliefs. And my own. But this time things have gone too far for me to grin and bear it. I love my friends and hate to see them unhappy and wish it was possible to have a wand to magic away that misery, and somehow to reconcile them to the conflict they feel between who and what they are and what they believe and set up a discussion with their God if he actually existed. I am unable to do either it appears and I find this deeply disturbing.

Whatever the truth of the origins of Christianity I wish I could get my hands on those who finally decided on the ethics of the church and have them explain what gave them the right and authority to make the lives of so many simply so unhappy and miserable. One of those friends had a partner who he loves deperately and with that partner now we have another casualty to add to the catalogue of misery created in the name of religion. I have never believed in a God and am glad to have been spared that from my life, and have no void to account for his or her absence.

It now comes to Christmas. A time of Good Will to All Men and Women. I try to do that every day of my life as best I can and thats why I believe in many of the things I do. I celebrate Christmas as a party, as I do New year. But while I do not believe in a Christ I do believe in many of the tenets of the Christian faith and try to practice what I preach. Others, such as the intolerance of homosexuality I consign to the dustbin and treat that with contempt it deserves.

To my two friends I do wish both every happiness and that your Christmas is full of the joys they deserve, and beg both to reconsider. The creation of the Christian church was done by men and therefore inately untrustworthy. If your saviour was the compassionate man he was supposed to be he would not have had either of you undergo the confusion, unhappiness and misery you suffer now. If he was not, then he is not worthy of your worship in any case.

Whatever either decide, they have the love of at least one person unreservedly and will retain that love whatever they decide.

To everyone in .com I hope your Christmas is all that you wish it to be.

[the mage]

The reality of life ignores the pomp and spenditry of Xmas, for that reason it is a hard time for many.
But to all of you I do wish my best for good times in the season and more smiles than tears in your life.

Interestingly, speaking of the fates and dates, I was married, my mother died and my son came very close to death all on the same calender day right at xmas. Different years of course but I kind of hunker down a bit in this period..


Religion is indeed man made. We have convinced ourselves we are gawds afterlife and all, to justify our crimes upon each other and nature.
God will get us for it in the end.

.

[Bluebiyou]

Let 'em talk to me Fran.
I firmly believe in God. I do not see myself changing my mind in the future.
I have no problems with the co-existance of God and my bisexuality; largely because these are quite compatible things.
God gave us all a mind. To the lesser ones, you can follow a step-by-step book. To the ones capable of greater things, one must (in one's journey of faith) try to understand various aspects of the nature of God.
That the principle - above all things - is God is Love.
I have a thousand proofs...
People who blindly follow any faith (torah,bible,koran) in apathy or hatred are not followers of God.
Of course, there are a million shades of gray. But there are those who clearly cling to one end of the spectrum or the other.
Fran, you're a lot closer to God (in my humble opinion) in your atheism than many other religious folks I have met.
Let me talk to your friends... I might be able to help.

[shameless agitator]

Oh, Fran that soo sucks! I would take Biyou up on his offer & also see if you can find any quakers in the area for them to talk to. I absolutely abhor the closed mindedness of religion, but you're right in that there are some useful things in the teachings of christ. Gandhi summed it up pretty well when he said "I love your christ, but I hate your christians, because they are nothing like your christ".

[Bluebiyou]

A quick word about me, I was born and raised devout atheist.
At the age of 21, a very specific event occurred and I became non-denominational Christian. At 30 I became Catholic largely because of the priests I've been exposed to made the most sense. At the same time, let me be quick to say that there is a great deal about the Catholic church that has nothing to do with God.
1st and most importantly; sometimes you have to build 'downwards'.
A man who testified about the Titanic sinking in 1912 said to estimate the damage to the ship, one should look at how she sank. His testimony was largely ignored even though we now know it to be the most accurate.
Let's first assume that if God exists s/he must be greater than any of us. So any virtue or philosophy we grow to... God is already there and past.
Now, what kind of God would create an Earth, life, and people, then get some kind of jolly taking a magnifying glass and destroying individuals like ants? I wasn't above that when I was a kid, but I have grown and would think that anyone who did this would have to be a very sick or immature individual. So much for the 'vengeful' or 'hateful' God.
Second, how many of us prefer blackmailed or coerced 'love' or devotion from another human being TO free will love? Only those among us who are sickos or just incredibly selfish. So much for ever allowing the 'love of God' to be a burden. By definition the only valid love for God is that love given in free will.
Next, and probably most importantly. How much can you love someone? No matter how much you love, remember, God by definition loves more. Do you hate anyone because they're gay? Or some silly shit like that? The older we get the gentler, more accepting we tend to become. Those of us who grow, anyway.
The bible is filled with 600 some odd laws or rules. More or less depending on the shortest version (Torah) or the longest version (Catholic). Many of these rules have to do with diagnosing and treating skin conditions. I believe I once even read of a fire breathing animal in the old testament (Torah). Surely life was fraught with disease and misunderstanding. No doubt homosexuals enjoyed a larger share of veneral disease than the mainstream, and just as doubtless their neighbors must have thought it was God's wrath upon these folks that caused them such distress. Throw in a little profit margin... "if I kill these guys in the name of God, I can profit from their property."... and we have fully justified biblical hatred of gays.
I always liked the bible. It starts out with such a wonderfully absolute God. One that has no choice when we piss him off; he has to kill us. His ego is straight out of a insecure 14 year old boy. "Worship me, tell me how big and wonderful I am or I will grab the magnifying glass and fry you." But then God learns and grows throughout the bible until the end, when we see God equal to love (in the Gospels). My, it's so good to see how God has grown... or is it rather mankind's understanding of what God must be... that has grown?
I have explored many avenues on the pathway to faith, and would be quite willing to share more.

[TaylorMade]

There is nothing I can do or say that could ever change your mind about God or the Church, Fran. . .but I will say this: I do believe firmly in free will and can only explain it like this- - -I think of Life as a candy machine (skittles, to be exact). . .the kind you find in a general store... put the coin in, turn the knob and you get your three pieces. God is the person who loads the machine up, and hands you the quarter. There are about 57K combinations in the average bag of skittles. . .an infinite amount more in a machine that holds about half a bushel of the stuff.

God knows every combination that could out of that machine. He knows every possibility out of a set amount. It's up to you what you do with that combination. . .but he knows what he has given you, and what you could possibly do with it. He's hoping for you to meet Him half way and do the right thing. If you don't, you'll disappoint Him, but I don't think you could ever take him by surprise.

It may make no sense to you... but all I can tell you is what I have learned about God through my study of life and the Bible. I'm sorry if you have found the church unworthy of your trust, but the church is only people, some of whom are trustworthy, and some of whom are not. For me, it comes down to a God, whom, sometimes it has been tough to trust, but I would trust above any human.

I don't worship God out of fear, it wouldn't be sincere if I did. I worship Him out of love. . .no really, I do. I love Him because of the fact that He Loves ME for WHO I AM... even when I suck. I hope you can see by now that my faith IS very personal, and I have found myself growing more as a Christian(oddly enough) as I have grown in my own sexual identity. It's strange, I can look myself more in the eye as "the wretch that song was talking about" than if I could if I thought myself wrongly accused by the divine.

Hey, God needs no one to stick up for Him. . .but I wanted to bang my spear on the ground and have my say.

*Taylor*

[FalconAngel]

It truly is unfortunate that there are people who allow a religion which is so intolerant into their lives. I wonder who is really following the ways of evil.....those who Christians condemn for following non-Christian ways or Christians who are so horribly intolerant of others for things over which they have no control.

We have many friends and relatives who are Christian and know that we are Pagan and many of those know that I (Chris) am Bi. None of that has ever mattered to them.

Unfortunately for your situation, it isn't the religion as a whole that is intolerant, it is the particular sect of that religion which they are, sadly, members.

We hope that things work out for you in this Yuletide season and your friends remember the love that their religion is supposed to espouse.

[Falke]

I do know exactly what you mean Dark, though I find loosing friends to instances of intollerance isn't exclusive to religion alone. I recently had one friend whom heard about one of my hobbies, flipped out and went on about how it should be banned as well as how he wouldn't talk to me until I stopped.
Well, C'est le vie.


Regardless, it's never fun. Sorry for your loss.

[darkeyes]

Thanks me lufflies for ya words... more of a comfort than ya know considering where I stand on matter religie.. just where we go with our friendships I cant say. One has simply told me what she has decided; the other in more depth that he is unable in all conscience to contiunue the way of life he has practiced for the last 12 years. His is the more disturbing because he has said that to successfully throw off the shackles of his homosexuality he feels it necessary to break off all contacts with homosexuals to take him away from temptation. Ok Im not a guy but the principle remains. Him I fear I will lose as a friend come what may. I have known him since I was at High School and it was to me he turned when he began to question his sexuality. I dont think it is his homosexuality's shackles he needs throw off..

All of you I respect how you feel about your God. I may not be able to understand completely since its not something I was ever raised with, but within me I have my own passions and beliefs so I have an inkling at least. I havent given up hope but I am seriously concerned. As yet I havent had the opportunity to charm or use the "infallible" Fran logic and reasoning yet. In at least one case an apparent refusal to answer texts, calls or offlines on yahoo or hotmail make me fear the worst. The other knows where I am and think I have to allow time.

I know religion is a personal thing like many others, or as Kate would say, unlike any other. This aspect I have never completely understood since it can mean just about anything, but in the end it comes down to whether or not God exists, and if so what does he or she or it think one should do and would he she or it be ok with it. There is something I cant answer and am not sure anyone else can either... I do know what the established churches would say to that... and that is where they got their sense of morality.. and their inner conflict...

[brunette]

The sad part about this is something we all know well: you can't change your sexual orientation. You can become celibate, but if you are gay, you are gay, etc. It doesn't matter how religious you become, or how much you surround yourself with straight people, you're sexual orientation is part of you like your eye color is part of you.

There are plenty of testimonials on the ex-gay and ex-ex-gay movement on youtube. Many of the leaders that started programs from as far back as the 60s quickly realized their mistakes and are now openly homosexual. American preachers like Ted Haggard proudly proclaim their cure and then are caught (literally) with their pants down.

And trust me, I'm not a fan of religion. People can suppress their sexual behavior, but not their sexual orientation. Here are some examples for you:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PDn7cEgxvtg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JZF0ijuw2Qo
(http://youtube.com/watch?v=JZF0ijuw2Qo)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9hLVjpZno

One of the best websites available is www.truthwinsout.org (http://www.truthwinsout.org). There are some great resources there.

[TaylorMade]

brunette. . .the only thing I'm seeing w/ ex-gays that is out of step with things I've seen on this website is the element of religon. . .

People phase in and out of attractions to a gender throughout their lives...we've talked about this here MANY times.

To me, it just seems the ex-gays take advantage of it and not knowing what they are dealing with (situational bisexuality/gay-turning-bisexual), cloak it in the language of religious conversion, adding pressure to a person on the edge, and voila, a nice internal powder keg.

*Taylor*

[Bluebiyou]

I've pondered the nature of God many times, over many years.

Any connection between God and an individual's sexual preference eludes me.

One might as well involve one's shoe size in a Godly requirement.

[liquidcandycain]

i grew up sourthern babticost but my father was luthern and i was christend in a cathloic church lol but i studied religen for some time and i beileve theres a god christ satan ect only i dont think one religen has nailed it yet the bible as we have it is a guid book to be interpeded by dif people dif ways and its our responsability to gather and discuss these understandings not have someone shove it down our throught and bisexuality is a touchy subject with christen religeions mostly tought its outright wrong but its not our place to point fingers or excommunicate a "church member" for he who is without sin cast the first stone thats between them and there god for when it all comes down to it and we all end up infront of whoever is controlling this phyco screwball world were in it them and that deiety that has to speak all to often (in america anyways) its to easy to destroy something we dont understand then try to accept and understand what we dont

[vittoria]

Frannie :) Love you bunches...

Think of it this way...
You know that signature that you have (at the bottom of most of your posts, some private messages, and so forth...)

Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

Read that a couple of times... Think about it... Read it some more... And theres your answer.

Dignity and respect. Dont feel that your rights are affected because they choose the love of their respective God over the love of the same sex. That is their choice, and their right. As long as you love and respect them still, that should be sufficient.

After all, its not always necessary to fkk one's friends. :rolleyes: I have plenty of Christian friends, and I'm not mad at them because they arent bisexual. If one is expected to be respected for not being heterosexual anymore---we should be able to give them the same respect for not wanting to be bisexual anymore. (To explain, its amazing how when we tell others, like parents, friends, relatives, co-workers "Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm BI!!!" some get bent out of shape saying "THEY DONT RESPECT ME!!!! THEY DONT APPROVE OF MY DECISION!!!!" Either some fret and worry over how come they dont approve or accept, some try to be confrontational and 'force' family members et al. to approve, or some just say 'screw em its my life'. The same would apply if they chose to have a hetero lifestyle. The people in question would do the same as those of us who have 'come out'... get bent out of shape saying "THEY DONT RESPECT ME!!!! THEY DONT APPROVE OF MY DECISION!!!!", fret or worry over the approval of others, become confrontational, or just say...."screw em its my life". Just show them that you still care regardless of their personal belief system.... We as bisexuals want acceptance--and so do they. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations)

love,

V

[FalconAngel]

The sad part about this is something we all know well: you can't change your sexual orientation. You can become celibate, but if you are gay, you are gay, etc. It doesn't matter how religious you become, or how much you surround yourself with straight people, you're sexual orientation is part of you like your eye color is part of you.

There are plenty of testimonials on the ex-gay and ex-ex-gay movement on youtube. Many of the leaders that started programs from as far back as the 60s quickly realized their mistakes and are now openly homosexual. American preachers like Ted Haggard proudly proclaim their cure and then are caught (literally) with their pants down.

And trust me, I'm not a fan of religion. People can suppress their sexual behavior, but not their sexual orientation. Here are some examples for you:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PDn7cEgxvtg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JZF0ijuw2Qo
(http://youtube.com/watch?v=JZF0ijuw2Qo)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9hLVjpZno

One of the best websites available is www.truthwinsout.org (http://www.truthwinsout.org). There are some great resources there.


What all of these gender orientation changing churches don't tell you, and probably won't ever admit, is the simple fact that psychological and physical abuse-born homosexuality is the rarity. And those are going to be the ONLY real success stories that they have.

In the one video with the two men from the "ex-gay" church, the one guy is most likely Bi so he is really not a success story at all. He's just limiting his sexuality rather than changing it.

And the damage that these supposed churches do is far reaching. In the one video, they showed 4 women who have very shattered lives because of this; and what about the children of these failed marriages? Their church does a lot of damage and takes no responsibility for it. If I were those women and the men who were involved, I would sue that church for everything it had.

[Bluebiyou]

I say here at my own risk.

There are many among the religious crowd who will discount/discard those of alternate sexuality.

There are many among the alternate sexuality crowd who will discount/discard those of the religious crowd.

The theoretic goals/directive of each are not mutually exclusive. Being straight does not mean you are closer to God and being close to God has no bearing on your sexual orientation. One really has little/nothing to do with the other.

As far as the nature/nurture origin of sexuality, I'd say 'yes, both are major influence'.
There are lonely boys who only want attention from an adult, who after sexual submission feel loved. I learned this from a gay friend who said that he liked the attention when he was sexually abused a boy. Thus they grow up to be gay (and unfortunately disproportionatly interested in underage boys).
Also, the vast majority of lesbians I've met have all had a traumatic relationship with a man (almost always rape). Likewise, there are many bad women. I'm amazed that with my mom as my example of all women, that I ever even considered intimacy with such horrible beings.:eek:
Now, as far as 'cure'... holy shit... you know with psychological therapy, you can help people with serious issues... to the point that someone might lose a fear or hatred of sex with a gender, but you can't push them through the door. It either happens for them or it doesn't.
But as a basic tenant, there is no 'cure' for sexual orientation as there is no 'cure' for color preference.
And yes the religious idiots who try clearly have not persued and achieved a higher relationship/understanding with/of God.

[TaylorMade]

I say here at my own risk.

There are many among the religious crowd who will discount/discard those of alternate sexuality.

There are many among the alternate sexuality crowd who will discount/discard those of the religious crowd.

The theoretic goals/directive of each are not mutually exclusive. Being straight does not mean you are closer to God and being close to God has no bearing on your sexual orientation. One really has little/nothing to do with the other.

As far as the nature/nurture origin of sexuality, I'd say 'yes, both are major influence'.
There are lonely boys who only want attention from an adult, who after sexual submission feel loved. I learned this from a gay friend who said that he liked the attention when he was sexually abused a boy. Thus they grow up to be gay (and unfortunately disproportionatly interested in underage boys).
Also, the vast majority of lesbians I've met have all had a traumatic relationship with a man (almost always rape). Likewise, there are many bad women. I'm amazed that with my mom as my example of all women, that I ever even considered intimacy with such horrible beings.:eek:
Now, as far as 'cure'... holy shit... you know with psychological therapy, you can help people with serious issues... to the point that someone might lose a fear or hatred of sex with a gender, but you can't push them through the door. It either happens for them or it doesn't.
But as a basic tenant, there is no 'cure' for sexual orientation as there is no 'cure' for color preference.
And yes the religious idiots who try clearly have not persued and achieved a higher relationship/understanding with/of God.

I agree with you for the most part, but you know. . .

I'm biased.

http://northstargallery.com/pages/Rome/Angel%20Vatican%2004%20weba.jpg


*Taylor*

[Bluebiyou]

Taylor, Fran's not the only one I love... :bigrin:
not to mention the seriously cool angel art!!!!!
I love stone angels!!!!

[coyotedude]

Fran, this is so sad. I'm sorry for you that you may be losing what are obviously deep and meaningful friendships.

And I'm even more sorry for your friends who are struggling with these internal contradictions in their lives. To have your heart torn by who you are versus what you love - and believing those two things to be irreconcilable - is such an impossible place to be in. If you truly love someone (in this case, God) but you have been told all your life that the one you love disapproves of who you are and how you live your life, how on earth can you possibly bridge the gap?

It doesn't matter that God may be a fantasy. They believe, and they love, and they hurt; their perception of God is part of their own reality, even if God truly does not exist in the physical world.

Nor does it matter how you feel about God as an atheist, or how I feel as a believer, or the opinions of anyone on this board, or any of their friends, acquaintances, family, or loved ones. None of us has the answers your friends need. And your friends won't necessarily find the answers in a book or a church. The hard truth is that they will have to look deep within themselves if they truly want to find answers - and we all know what a painful process that can be.

Of course, while you can't give them answers, you can give them love and support. Which you're already doing....

I sincerely hope that they can find peace within themselves. And you hang in there, too!

Peace

[coyotedude]

Should clarify one thing, however.

Fran, if you need a place to vent about what your friends are going through - what you're going through - the stupidity of the world in general - this is most certainly the place!

Personally, I shake my head at the idiocy of it all. People shouldn't have to be forced to choose between belief in God and who they are as human beings. It's more than simply ludicrous; it's obscene. You can be a spiritual person and also bisexual. You can be a spiritual person and also be gay. You can be a spiritual person and also be lesbian. You can be a spiritual person and be transgender. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

God does not hate fags. Period.

Peace

[onewhocares]

Frances, Love......

I am sorry that your friends have taken a turn away from you. A sad state of affairs. For me I have never been a very religious person as it was forced upon my as I was growing up and has turned me away. Raised Catholic but have found the teachings of the Catholic Church repugnant and rather pious. So I have come to my own beliefs and have taken to looking at the teachings of Zen.

I do not believe that ones religion has anything to do with ones sexuality. Acceptence of a spiritual path of your choosing is seperate. Just be happy and accept who you are and work towards making a difference in the world.

As others above have stated, this is a good place to share your ideas and sorrow too. We love you dear one.


Belle