Please Help, An argument i need help solving

[smoothee]

A huge argument arose between me and a big group of my closest friends one night. You see i have many relatives that are Gay with boyfriends. (whoever agrees or disagrees with me please let me know anything that you feel, i will accept any comments good or bad) First i will tell you about the argument, then i will tell you my stand on it and you can tell me what your stand is, and tell me where i am right or wrong. The argument was, are Gay people, and i stress Gay* not Bi, (this was a big part of it too) are Gay people born Gay and they just dont realize it until they mature, or is being gay something that is developed over time, caused by certain descisions in ones life? The difference between the two is, being developed over time, one has a choice if one wants to take that route. And Being Born gay, one has no choice of his/her sexuality, it is in his/her future. (let me remind you that these are just the two oppinionated sides we have no hard evidence to back anything up)
Now i Believe That Gay people are born Gay, Now let me tell you why this is my "opinion". Like i said i have many relatives that are gay, but one inparticular, my cousin, He is having a hard time with life (putting it lightly) he is verry depresed all the time, and he is constanly crying, he is "strugling" Everyone in the family thinks he is on drugs, but i know that he isnt, being i am the only one that he opens up to. N-E way to make a long story short, my mother took him to the hospital and Results came back; im not a medic so i didnt know what the specidic terms were, so my mom explaind in dummy terms to me. basically that he had to many female hormones in his body and he knew that he was a female inside, but when he looked in the mirror he saw a boys body, so this made him cry all the time and be depressed he didnt know how to deal with it. So the doctor prescribed him male hormones to level out his body. Now that is why i believe that gay people are born that way. Because my cousin didnt choose to do this to his body. he didnt choose to be depresed and cry all the time. Now i remind you that this is for Gay* people, i have different oppions on Bi* people, mayb another time we could get into that. please let me know any of your oppinions.

[Damon]

It is my humble opinion that there is no norm.. there is no set way to be gay..

For me.. being Bi came down to choice.. and I am sure that the same will go when i decide to disclude females completely from the table. It seems to be a little bit shunned upon to say that you "choose" to be gay where i live.. The guys here seem to feel that it is either men only, all your life.. or you're not gay.. but personally i "know" this is not true.. I think it is a waste of one's time (no offense in the slightest) to argue about how something came to be.. I feel it is much more appropriate to argue about what can be done with/about it..

Not to insult you but you say you have many relatives who are gay, but only one whom you choose to base your theory on.. To me this states that the case is unique and does not qualify as a relative example.. In order for your theory to be correct there would have to be an overwhelming amount of similar cases..

But again I feel that there is no one way to become a gay person.. its all in the way we appreciate things.. I've always admired the human figure on both male and females.. over time my admiration for the female form grew less & less because i saw no consistency in quality over a large number of women.. As a result i am now more focussed on the male body which has its consistency in numbers.. I made a choice through experience..

Hope this helps :)

Damon

[bediddle]

First of all I think you have a couple of things confused here. What you say about your cousin says nothing about his sexual orientation and more about his gender identification - these are different things. Sounds more like transgendered to me. The best working definition of which is "People who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."

As for the nature/nurture argument I'd have to say there is a bit of confusion in your argument there as well. On the one had you have a purely biological view - you're born that way. On the other hand you have an environmental view - you chose it. I think it's faulty reasoning to say, "If your environment dictates your sexuality you could choose a different path." You don't choose your environment in the early part of your life any more than you choose your genetic makeup.
My own personaly belief is that you are born with a genetic disposition towards a certain sexual orientation. Then your environment will dictate whether or not that sexual orientation will actually come out.

[lastlaf44]

I completely agree with Bediddle (sounds like you've taken psych at one level or another ^_^). Lol, I actually have nothing I can add to that. You pretty much summed up my argument. :)

~LastLaugh~ :female:

[bediddle]

I completely agree with Bediddle (sounds like you've taken psych at one level or another ^_^). Lol, I actually have nothing I can add to that. You pretty much summed up my argument. :)

~LastLaugh~ :female:


hahaha... you caught me. I have a BA in psyc :tong:

[smurf111978]

I have only discovered my Bi side over the last few months and still finding my way. Some days I feel being Bi is great and others, when I have uncertanties, I feel being Bi is a curse. I didnt choose to be Bi so I think there is a genetic link to being Bi or Gay. However I accept that the environment in which we are raised and indeed personal choice also play a role.

[cutiepie35]

:2cents: Who would choose such a difficult road? I can only speak for myself, but I believe that a persons sexual orientation is something your born with. Your environment plays a big role in how accepting you are to that orientation. Some people choose to go against their own personal orientation for the sake of friends, family or society, but you are, what you are. plain and simple. As I see it, the only choice you really have is how you act on your attractions.

[crowznest]

I would have to say a person can be borned our learned to be attracted to the same sex. It wasn't until my wife and I started lookin around for a playmate that I actually "checked out" men! Before that I accepted men when the two in my experience came on to me but that was it. Even now I'm so pickey because geez take a bath guys! LOL But anyway thanks for the time.

Hey Danelle! :three:

[RainbowBright]

:2cents: you are, what you are. plain and simple. As I see it, the only choice you really have is how you act on your attractions.

i agree completly. the heart controlls the heart and the way i see it, you couldnt controll who you fall in love with so how can you control weather you are gay, lesbian or bisexual? i beleive that you are born the way you are.. but.. weather or not you choose to act on it is another matter.

RainbowBright :tong:

[CuteGeorgiaBoy]

I agree with Rainbow-
Everyone is born the way that they are and must choose whether to act on their nature or not depending on their individual circumstances.
I have always been equally attracted to both males and females, and they to me as well, even as a child. My environment was such that I had the freedom to explore.
I was born this way, and I have always known it. The choice not to broadcast it every second of every day my own. Similar to heterosexuals that are born straight and know they are straight. They don't have to decide or even give it any thought, and they don't feel the need in a hetero world to broadcast their orientation.
Some of the confusion mentioned in earlier comments seems to be rooted in a wave of disingenuous people that make the rounds through our community. You have all probably seen some these people.
For example, the girl that says she is bisexual, not because she is, but because it's currently the cool status to maintain, not unlike the lesbian chic era of the 70s. Other examples: the husband that is not getting any at home; watches an episode of Queer as Folk and heads off to the bath house, because he now thinks all gay people are an easy piece of ass. There's also the hater-of-men who declares that she is a lesbian, not because she loves women, rather because of her failures with men. The list goes on.
These types of people are not sincere in their dealings with our community or themselves. They merely complicate things further for people that are already living in a difficult environment.

:soapbox:

[kenny]

When you say gay or bi , I think you have to look deeper, My brother is gay and is attracted to men. I am attracted to women but occasionally like to have oral sex with men. I am in no way attracted to men and have never even kissid a guy. I do like giving oral sex to a guy or receiving it. I think gay guys are just guys that are born with a gay gene and bi guys like myself just like sex. I have had oral with more than 30 guys yet, Im not attracted to them. Just their cocks.

[mike9753]

Another opinon:

I think that many, if not all people who define themselves as "gay" are born that way. These men and women, when they discover the joy of being gay, embrace it fully and are never unsure of themselves or their sexual orientation.

I also believe that there are many who in the ambiguious years of adolescence, feel strong sexual urges as their hormones race through their bloodstreams. If they are socially adept with girls, then their sexuality becomes expressed in heterosexual ways. If they are awkward with girls, but have close male friends, they may sexually experiment with each other, find satisfaction and pleasure and then think of themselves as gay. After all experimenting with a close friend, who is trusted, can be fun and can give them an eroneous impression. If they truely are gay, then it becomes a lifestyle as they get older and become independent.

If these adolescents find a girl/woman who they can develop a friendship with, their heterosexuality may then emerge as their primary sexual partner choice.

Then there are those of us who appreciate both sides of the street. We may be committed to one partner - a husband or wife or a same sex lover, but we do appreciate the potential of sexual intimacy with both sexes. How we develop that way is still an open question for me. I am not sure if is biologically based or environmentally based. But there are literally hundreds of folk on this site who have some wonderful and creative theories about this.

Mike

[csrakate]

While I also believe that Gay people are born gay...your cousin's situation does not in any way prove your theory. I agree with BiDiddle...this is a totally different issue. Your cousin isn't dealing with gayness...but of the realities of his body vs. his perceptions of it...more of a gender identity issue then one of sexuality. I would suggest that you not use this example as fodder for your argument. And unfortunately, I also worry for your cousin in that if he truly has issues with identity, putting him on male hormones may not help his depression. You would do him a far greater service to continue to allow him to express his feelings to you. He might really need to do so during this time, so continue to be his friend and his confidante.

Hugs,
Kate

[CuteGeorgiaBoy]

Maybe part of the issue lies in labels. People generally seem to feel the need to place everything in a nice neat category.

Example:
If you suck a cock, then you must be gay.

I'm willing to bet that would be the consensus of nearly all of the heterosexual males that I know. That doesn't make it fact.
We know better. True, you could be gay, but you could also be bisexual, or any of a number of other things, including heterosexual and really inquisitive. Remember that old saying: 'Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.' Some people could take that very seriously. :tong:
In any case, there is not any single act that defines you. Perhaps understanding the motivation behind the act, but not the act itself.
People as a whole assign degrees of importance to acts almost arbitrarily. I don't think there is any real technical difference between giving a guy a foot massage and sucking a guy off. There is no difference, except in the value we assign to the acts.
In hetero circles, one man giving another man a foot massage would no doubt be considered a blatant act of raging gayness. However, if one man goes to a resort or spa and pays another man for a massage, that is fine. It's absurd.

:flag2:

Of course, there is always the possibility that I am completely insane and have no idea what I am talking about. :rolleyes:

[bluewatermoth]

Maybe part of the issue lies in labels. People generally seem to feel the need to place everything in a nice neat category.

Example:
If you suck a cock, then you must be gay.

I'm willing to bet that would be the consensus of nearly all of the heterosexual males that I know. That doesn't make it fact.

That just reminded me of a conversation I had a couple years back with a 'straight' neighbor or mine. We had this party and everyone crashed pretty early... except him and another guy, who was openly gay. I came downstairs to get a drink of water later and caught my neighbor with his pants around his ankles and his dick in the other guy's mouth. The guy freaked out and left, and I spent the last hour before daybreak trying to convince my neighbor that he wasn't gay just because he let a man go down on him. He was just... a little curious... and really horny :tong: Had to share that, lol.

Anyway, I think everyone has different opinions about the gay gene theory vs. personal choice. I've been attracted to men and women for as long as I can remember. Never made a choice to like both or one or the other.

As far as gender identity, that's a whole different ball game. It doesn't prove or disprove your position.