A face to launch 1000 ships

[Sarasvati]

"For the Fairest"

Hello my fellow bisexuallers.

I have some new questions for y'all which I hope will gnaw their virulent way into your considerations. Maybe I won't "float your boat" with this thread, perhaps I won't get many replies, but I'll enjoy any I do.

This thread was motivated by an earlier one discussing the way people reacted when confronted by a member's appearance. Do you remember the one I mean?

Now please read the following:-

In Greek mythology, Paris had to decide between 3 goddesses as to who was the "fairest".i.e., the most beautiful. The 3 goddesses were Hera, Athena and Aphrodite. Their prize for obtaining his judgement was a Golden Apple sent by Eris, the Goddess of Discord.

Hera offered Paris universal power and wealth
Athena offered him glory and invincibility in war
Aphrodite offered him the love and devotion of the most beautiful mortal, Helen.

Paris chose Helen and so Aphrodite won the contest between the Goddesses.

Now my questions for you are as follows (please imagine substituting the genders of Paris, the 3 Goddesses and Helen for other genders to suit your own identity and desire):-

1. If you were in the position of Paris which offering would you have taken?

2. Why do you think Paris made the choice he did? Was it a wise choice? (This is my most important question for you. I would appreciate any attempts to answer. And guess what, there is an answer).

3. If you were in the postion of the Goddesses and desired the affections of someone what would you offer, either fantastically or in reality.

[Skater Boy]

I would probably choose the same as Paris. The love of a beautiful woman (although I'll leave "beauty" undefined for now) would most likely compensate for many other shortcomings. In fact, some would even argue, that if you find Love, you need look no further for anything else. personally, I would value True Love as something perfect and superior to the likes of military invincibility. But it could be argued that one might, with the aid of one of the other two options achieve the love as a secondary objective. If thats the case, then maybe I'll reconsider! :bigrin: Can't really answer the third question literally, as I don't feel that I have much of any significant value to give in reality. But I'd gladly give anything that the other person might want, should it not inconvenience me terribly to do so.

Btw... "Was this the face that launched a thousand ships?"... its a Faust/Faustus quote, is it not?

[Long Duck Dong]

yeah, I would have chosen the love and devotion of a person..... perferably not the most beautiful person in the world tho

wealth and universal power ??? no thanks..... money is good, but there is only so much fun that you can have with money......
money can buy a lot of things.... but things like true love, genuine friendship, a honest hug, heart felt tears etc...... they are beyond value.....

glory and unbeatable in battle
the trouble with being unbeatable in battle, is the fact that you still have to go to war.... and people have to die......
and as we know.... war is a endless cause.....it never ends, we just change the battle field and the opponents
you could be the ruler of the world.... and still be totally alone


the heart felt, honest and genuine love of a partner..... lol unbeatable

if I was in the position of the goddess.... I would offer you a choice.....
the choice is simple.......I could introduce you to the person that may be your equal in love and affections or the person that is your equal in sexual desire

why the choice ??? cos some people see sex as love, and others see love as sharing experiences such as sex, cuddles, kisses and every day experiences

me, I would choose to be loved and to love every day and have crappy sex..... than have the best sex in the world and a heart yearning for love

[darkeyes]

"For the Fairest"

Hello my fellow bisexuallers.

I have some new questions for y'all which I hope will gnaw their virulent way into your considerations. Maybe I won't "float your boat" with this thread, perhaps I won't get many replies, but I'll enjoy any I do.

This thread was motivated by an earlier one discussing the way people reacted when confronted by a member's appearance. Do you remember the one I mean?

Now please read the following:-

In Greek mythology, Paris had to decide between 3 goddesses as to who was the "fairest".i.e., the most beautiful. The 3 goddesses were Hera, Athena and Aphrodite. Their prize for obtaining his judgement was a Golden Apple sent by Eris, the Goddess of Discord.

Hera offered Paris universal power and wealth
Athena offered him glory and invincibility in war
Aphrodite offered him the love and devotion of the most beautiful mortal, Helen.

Paris chose Helen and so Aphrodite won the contest between the Goddesses.

Now my questions for you are as follows (please imagine substituting the genders of Paris, the 3 Goddesses and Helen for other genders to suit your own identity and desire):-

1. If you were in the position of Paris which offering would you have taken?

2. Why do you think Paris made the choice he did? Was it a wise choice? (This is my most important question for you. I would appreciate any attempts to answer. And guess what, there is an answer).

3. If you were in the postion of the Goddesses and desired the affections of someone what would you offer, either fantastically or in reality.
1. me wud sit down say 2 the goddesses..ere me is..sort it out an wenya finished ya knows wer me is..
2.Paris a man..notoriously bad at makin judgements bout wimmen.. so question means nowt.
3. If me wos Goddess.. wud jus say k..lets go gals..wy fall out..lets hav group sex. But leave the arsehole out of it!

[Sarasvati]

2.Paris a man..notoriously bad at makin judgements bout wimmen.. so question means nowt.

It is a shame that for all your brilliance DE you won't subject your very able mind to this challenge.

To help you, suppose Paris was a woman and made that same judgement. The question is still worth asking.

The Ancient Greeks were amazing minds. To dismiss them so easily is seriously flawed (and arrogant).

Nevertheless thank you and Skater for your contributions.

[TaylorMade]

I would also choose the love of a beautiful . . .person. Probably it would be a man... or a REALLY exceptional woman.

I'm sorry... The idea of sharing a laugh and a gyro plate with a smart, witty, sensual person with looks to boot is just too much compared to money and invincibility in war, though those are REALLY tempting too.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

K S.. serious stab....

If me wos in the position of Paris... me cant say..for wivout cein the 3 goddesses concerned it hard 2 make the judgement... but am honest enuff 2 choose the Goddess who appealed to me own eye, an not who cud offer me most. But if me wos Paris the mythological figure... mythologically a passionate, selfish an not 2 brite guy..wud prob choose as e did.. if me wos Paris, an used me loaf..me wud choose Hera, for within the gift of universal power is all otha things that Athena an Aphrodite had 2 offa... an also the wealth that Hera erself offad im.

So no..is choice wosnt 2 cleva.. neva 2 cleva bein responsible 2 start a punch up wer allya peeps is gonna b slaughtered or enslaved an ya home is gonna go up in smoke. Neva 2 clever bein responsible for a punch up period! An it neva a wise choice wen ya piks up the weakest hand... wich Aphrodite's wos... e cuda had it all an didn even realise...

An lastly..if me wos tryin 2 win the affections of sum 1 wot wud me do? Wot me has always dun..fantastically or realistically... me... cos if they don wan me, but wot wondas me mite havta offa... then they aint worth havin in 1st place....

[Sarasvati]

I would also choose the love of a beautiful . . .person. Probably it would be a man... or a REALLY exceptional woman.

I'm sorry... The idea of sharing a laugh and a gyro plate with a smart, witty, sensual person with looks to boot is just too much compared to money and invincibility in war, though those are REALLY tempting too.

*Taylor*

I am so very pleased that three of my very own favourites on this site have been first to attempt to supply an answer;
I mean you Taylor Made, you darkeyes and you Skater.

And you 3 may very well be on your way to claiming a Golden Apple of your own.

Believe me when I say there is a sublime solution to my second question which when grasped by the mind illuminates and makes the thinker think they've glimpsed Heaven itself. And that thought is no delusion, no deceitmonger, no trumpeter of falsehood - but a rainbow.

Perhaps I shall someday share it with you - but probably not. Better to let you all find your own way on this dark highway of desire!!!

Taste the dream lovers.

[MarieDelta]

"For the Fairest"

1. If you were in the position of Paris which offering would you have taken?

2. Why do you think Paris made the choice he did? Was it a wise choice? (This is my most important question for you. I would appreciate any attempts to answer. And guess what, there is an answer).

3. If you were in the postion of the Goddesses and desired the affections of someone what would you offer, either fantastically or in reality.[/I]

1. If I were Paris(Knowing what I know & knowing Gods and Goddesses ) I would have run for the hills. No good can possibly come of angering a Goddess, let alone two of them. Then there is the notorious way Goddesses have of giving a gift that is no gift( Helen in this case).

If I were Paris & only had his knowledge I would probably choose Aphrodite...

2. Paris made the choice he did because to an Acient Greek, beauty was the only good. From beauty came purity and excellence. Its kind of mocking the way men chase after a good looking gal isn't it? Men chase their willies half way round the world for a girl sometimes. Plus he was written that way...

Of course it all came to no good anyway-


3. As a Goddess I would offer him wisdom. Wisdom to know how to get beauty and power for himself. (This was Solomons choice after all and look where it got him! All the women of Isreal, and plenty of $$ to boot)

[Skater Boy]

To come back to question 2: I can't really say exactly why Paris chose what he did, because I'm unfamiliar with him and his story.

So I'll explain why I chose the same choice. Its based on my current system of values, in which Love is quite high up the list. Obviously I found the other choices very tempting too- particularly Hera's. And if I could achieve the same result indirectly through selecting one of the other choices, then that I might do. I obviously understand that beauty is not everything- although it certainly does have its charms. And please note that I left beauty undefined, meaning that psychological beauty could still be very relevant, and even the physical would need to be dictated by my own standards. I'm only too aware that some of the most beautiful women about are often, in other ways, the least attractive. And my idea of beauty is not always sympathetic to everyone else's.

If I currently had more experience of love, or was already in Love, then I may have chosen differently. I suspect, had I lived a very intense life until this point, and had many relationships that constituted love, I might also choose differently. Also were I an entirely secure and self-satisfied individual who felt it more important to love another than to BE loved, then again, different choice.

Paris' choice was perhaps not wise per se. But not so foolish either, IMO. The love of a beautiful woman, if it is indeed true love that is a direct synthesis of the real thing, would probably be quite rewarding. Whether or not he has EARNED this love, is another matter altogether. Some might argue that this sort of love is blind and meaningless, and they may have a point. One could also point out that physical beauty will, in time, fade. So if one were choosing Helen merely because of her physical beauty, then that might be worth considering.

I guess it all just depends on one's values. and at this stage in my life, I find myself aiming for love, rather than military conquest or unlimited power. Although in reality, all the options do seem related to some extent. And the unlimited power option is certainly quite tempting too.

[jamiehue]

what does all this have to do with miss hilton?

[Skater Boy]

what does all this have to do with miss hilton?

Good fucken question, dude! Forget all this Greek Mythology nonsense...where are all the air-headed heiresses at?! ;) :bigrin:

[onewhocares]

I do believe that I would have selected the love of another person over wealth, power and glory. As far as looks go, I have always paid little attention to that. Beauty in my eyes lies within. I would get to know the person first and base my actions and affections on what my heart says.

I have never yearned to have power, for it is corruptible. It requires sacrifices I am unwilling to cave into. The glory of war holds no interest for me. I would rather be successful in business do to hard work. Money or an abundance of it causes problems of its own. I want to have just enough to be able to live in the manner I am accustomed to, provide an education for my daughter, and set aside for retirement and a rainy day.

My recollection of Greek Mythology is rather limited so understanding why Paris selected Helen is not too clear to me. Trying to figure a man out is hard work indeed. Sometimes something that seems too good to be true is bad.


As for your final question, dear Sarasvati, I guess all I have to offer a man is a loving giving heart, an inquisitive mind, a desire to work hard and succeed in whatever I choose to do. I believe that I am a good friend to those who come into my life.

[Annika L]

Hera offered Paris universal power and wealth
Athena offered him glory and invincibility in war
Aphrodite offered him the love and devotion of the most beautiful mortal, Helen.

Now my questions for you are as follows (please imagine substituting the genders of Paris, the 3 Goddesses and Helen for other genders to suit your
own identity and desire):

1. If you were in the position of Paris which offering would you have taken?
2. Why do you think Paris made the choice he did? Was it a wise choice? (This is my most important question for you. I would appreciate any attempts to answer. And guess what, there is an answer).
3. If you were in the postion of the Goddesses and desired the affections of someone what would you offer, either fantastically or in reality.

Interesting questions here, Sarasvati. Let's see:

1. I have no use whatsoever for glory and invincibility in war. And personally, although I value love and devotion quite highly, I prefer to earn them myself. There is something creepy about receiving someone else's love and devotion from some goddess...even the goddess of Love. No goddess of mine would ever bend another's will to suit her whims. hmmm...but "universal" power and wealth? I'm not even completely certain what that means, but I'm willing to find out! *smile*

Besides, making a choice that benefits or flatters the partner of the ruler of Mt. Olympus seems wise from a karmic standpoint (and of the three, my impression is that Hera is the most vindictive).

2. Why did Paris make the decision he did? I must say that I'm with Fran on this one: he was a shallow male (not that I'm saying all men are shallow, but Paris was not known for his subtle intellect). I honestly doubt he gave it much thought. He was shown Helen, he wanted Helen, he chose Helen. Why use military might as a means to and end when you can have the end itself? (His thoughts, not mine.)

3. If I was a fourth goddess involved in the competition, I would offer peace and wisdom, if I could. I would like to think that a mortal would be strong enough to choose those over the others. It would be a test of my faith in humanity.

Now some questions for you:
(a) What is the "right answer" in the World According to Sarasvati?
(b) Why do you care what we think about these things (what is the significance of the question to you)?

[Sarasvati]

2. Why did Paris make the decision he did? I honestly doubt he gave it much thought.

Annika I like your whole post and I think it is well thought out.

However, does not thinking actually sully the quality of a good decision? The absence of thought in the judgement rapidly elevates its virtue. But why?

[Sarasvati]

Now some questions for you:
(a) What is the "right answer" in the World According to Sarasvati?
(b) Why do you care what we think about these things (what is the significance of the question to you)?

In answer to your questions Annika, I feel it is better that I do not answer question a) and leave it to the perceptions of others.

Broadly speaking I believe "inspiration by hatred" is the prevalent human method. But "inspiration by hatred" produces only hatred. "Inspiration by beauty" however produces beauty. Thus the perception of beauty is a vital contemplation for anyone who hungers for the triumph of Good over Evil. That idea tumbles down through the ages from Plato and the Greeks and into the future if I can have my way.

And so, in answer to b), you have my main motive for this thread.

In addition, I think it is nice to expand the scope of the bisexual community here. Some want us to stick narrowly to bisexual themes. But I like to experience my fellows here in greater fullness. It's nice to kiss someone's lips but there is much more besides to kiss, so to speak...and I am making more of myself available and inviting others to make more of themselves available to me (so to speak).

Does that help at all Annika? Thanks for your contribution and to those of Belle and others.

[Skater Boy]

However, does not thinking actually sully the quality of a good decision? The absence of thought in the judgement rapidly elevates its virtue. But why?

Perhaps an unthought of response is an indication of the true nature of our unconscious minds. Hence why psychologists often ask patients what is the FIRST THING that pops into their head while looking at certain images, and why certain creative outlets can be representative of one's psyche. whereas a thoroughly thought out response becomes subject to all the social and intellectual prejudices that one may feel or subscribe to, and not necessarily be a true indication of one's standpoint on a given issue? :2cents:

[EDIT: Thinking Vs Feeling... an interesting topic. I think I have a tendancy to THINK too much and FEEL too little]

[MarieDelta]

Annika I like your whole post and I think it is well thought out.

However, does not thinking actually sully the quality of a good decision? The absence of thought in the judgement rapidly elevates its virtue. But why?


It depends on what decisions we are talking about.

Personal decisions to do with things like feelings and emotions; yeah I agree that you should just go with what you feel.

However, that being said, making a decision w/out thinking as regards your career and your life in other regards maybe not so good.

“The sign of an intelligent people is their ability to control emotions by the application of reason.”

Marya Mannes


Its Emotional intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence) that is what determines your success in the end.

Yes, the ancient Greeks thought that (visual) beauty was good and good was (visual) beauty. However, we know that there are pretty flowers that smell like garbage. We know that there are fruits that appear wonderful to eat that are poison. The common potato however is a staple food of millions.

I don't agree that it works in modern society. To me a persons beauty isn’t determined by their good looks, but by their actions.

Not every handsome man is a good man, nor is every beauty queen a good woman.

[Skater Boy]

“The sign of an intelligent people is their ability to control emotions by the application of reason.”

Marya Mannes


Its Emotional intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence) that is what determines your success in the end.

Yes, the ancient Greeks thought that (visual) beauty was good and good was (visual) beauty. However, we know that there are pretty flowers that smell like garbage. We know that there are fruits that appear wonderful to eat that are poison. The common potato however is a staple food of millions.

I don't agree that it works in modern society. To me a persons beauty isn’t determined by their good looks, but by their actions.

Not every handsome man is a good man, nor is every beauty queen a good woman.


Ah, "EQ"... I have a book on Emotional Intelligence somewhere... its the famous one. And I agree with most of what Marie has said here. But I suspect that Sarasvati was probably not honestly stating that he thought visual beauty (and a blind desire thereof) equated to the essence of positivity within humanity. IMO, he's simply too clever to do that.

[MarieDelta]

Ah, "EQ"... I have a book on Emotional Intelligence somewhere... its the famous one. And I agree with most of what Marie has said here. But I suspect that Sarasvati was probably not honestly stating that he thought visual beauty (and a desire thereof) equated to the essence of positivity within humanity. IMO, he's simply too clever to do that.


But that is the essence of the story IMO. Physical beauty as defined by the ancient Greeks. Helen may or may not have been the best woman in the ancient Greek world, but she was the prettiest which, to the ancient Greeks, meant the best.

Look at what that beauty wrought, a war. This is good? Achilles Dead, Hector dead, dragged around the field of battle for nine days. Odysseus lost at sea for several years & the gods themselves at war. Agamemnon not only killed his daughter as sacrifice, but was killed in turn by his wife and her lover upon return. Just so Paris could have Helen.

Yes beauty and conflict make for great stories. The make for wonderful myths( lest we forget that Narcissus was so beautiful that the gods turned him into a flower, and Medusa was beautiful enough that Hera gave her snakes for hair). But, in my opinion, beauty is perilous, leading to vanity and narcissism in some.

[darkeyes]

The gr8 thing bout a gud question or puzzle is that the questioner shuts is or er gob until e or she feels it time 2 reveal the ansa... e or she mite ta help the
questioned bung out a few lil hints or mayb a lil supplementary question or 2wich leads the recipients down the rite path.. S... ya aint don owta that.. seems 2 me yas usin the question both make yasel look a smartie pants an 2 find out as much bout the questioned than wetha they can solve the riddle... mind u ya aint 1st 2 use that lil trik ere or ne wer else..:tong:

Me reverts forthwith..2 me 1st ansa...an stiks 2 it..cos its more honestly me..

[Skater Boy]

Look at what that beauty wrought, a war. This is good? Achilles Dead, Hector dead, dragged around the field of battle for nine days. Odysseus lost at sea for several years & the gods themselves at war. Agamemnon not only killed his daughter as sacrifice, but was killed in turn by his wife and her lover upon return. Just so Paris could have Helen.

Yes beauty and conflict make for great stories. The make for wonderful myths( lest we forget that Narcissus was so beautiful that the gods turned him into a flower, and Medusa was beautiful enough that Hera gave her snakes for hair). But, in my opinion, beauty is perilous, leading to vanity and narcissism in some.

Exactly. Which is why I feel that Sarasvati (who, incidently, is no fool when it comes to these matters) was NOT honestly stating that visual beauty (and a blind desire thereof) equate to... etc.

I do, however, think that he has his own interpretation of the meaning of these myths.

[biwords]

I'd have chosen wealth and universal power, which would have enabled me to buy allies invincible in war and (let's face it) win the love of the second most beautiful woman, if not the first.

[darkeyes]

I'd have chosen wealth and universal power, which would have enabled me to buy allies invincible in war and (let's face it) win the love of the second most beautiful woman, if not the first.

Ya buys nowt Wordsie..nor dus ya win the 2cd mos beautiful..universal power means ya says "let it b.." an so it is.. gives ya it all hun... broaden ya horizons babes... an let ya imagination run free...:bigrin:

[Skater Boy]

Ya buys nowt Wordsie..nor dus ya win the 2cd mos beautiful..universal power means ya says "let it b.." an so it is.. gives ya it all hun... broaden ya horizons babes... an let ya imagination run free...:bigrin:

Exactly. Like I said, if I could achieve the love indirectly through one of the other two options, then that I would do. It would be killing two birds with one stone. BUT if FORCED to choose BETWEEN that love and "universal power" that would mean the OMISSION of that love, then I would choose the love at this stage in my life. What good is universal power if you have no-one to share its joys with? (rhetorical question, just in case Fran fancies being a smart-arse, as usual! :bigrin:)

[Sarasvati]

The gr8 thing bout a gud question or puzzle is that the questioner shuts is or er gob until e or she feels it time 2 reveal the ansa... e or she mite ta help the
questioned bung out a few lil hints or mayb a lil supplementary question or 2wich leads the recipients down the rite path.. S... ya aint don owta that.. seems 2 me yas usin the question both make yasel look a smartie pants an 2 find out as much bout the questioned than wetha they can solve the riddle... mind u ya aint 1st 2 use that lil trik ere or ne wer else..:tong:

Me reverts forthwith..2 me 1st ansa...an stiks 2 it..cos its more honestly me..

Total kicking class as usual from you DE - powerful women are just so Goddamn sexy. Perhaps MarieDelta can vie with you but not many. I love the way you squash dear old biwords, DE. Do you like it biwords?

But don't think you've debunked me with this effort DE. And I have provided a series of hints - it is a matter of perception.

Thanks once again to all contributors. Great stuff MD - an excellent challenge.

[darkeyes]

Exactly. Like I said, if I could achieve the love indirectly through one of the other two options, then that I would do. It would be killing two birds with one stone. BUT if FORCED to choose BETWEEN that love and "universal power" that would mean the OMISSION of that love, then I would choose the love at this stage in my life. What good is universal power if you have no-one to share its joys with? (rhetorical question, just in case Fran fancies being a smart-arse, as usual! :bigrin:)

We gettin lil off topic ere Skater but its a fun discussion ne ways.. wetha ya wud or wudn take loff ova universal poweru know as well as me its hypothetical as it hasta b..if ya werfaced wib that decision? Who knows wot decision ya wud make... think me knows wot me wud do but until faced wiv it jus cant say for sure..an neitha can ne 1 else..

But in principle...how me c's it s them that dus take the power ova luff r essentially soulless..an if they wernt..wudn b long fore they wer... they reely don wan ne 1 2 share that power wiv..they wanna own em... not how me wants 2 b.. but who knows..we a strange lot human beins..an do the oddest things at times... we like 2 think we wud do rite..but sumtimes..it jus aint in us...

[darkeyes]

Total kicking class as usual from you DE - powerful women are just so Goddamn sexy. Perhaps MarieDelta can vie with you but not many. I love the way you squash dear old biwords, DE. Do you like it biwords?

But don't think you've debunked me with this effort DE. And I have provided a series of hints - it is a matter of perception.

Thanks once again to all contributors. Great stuff MD - an excellent challenge.

Didn mean 2 squash Wordsie S...neva mean 2 squash ne 1.. well not much ne way.. merely let im c he hadn thought it all way through..as e dus 2 me at times...

An yea..e can b a pain in the bootie at times..but me likes im well enuff.. me luffs me partner 2 distraction but don stop me tellin er wots wot wen its needed.. an vikki verki..its the human way S..how it shud b...

An if me gets a chance 2 moren scan ya lil puzzle..then mayb me will say sum more..till then babes..jus tolerate me lil funnies... an me lil idiosyncs. Muah.:tong:

[Skater Boy]

But in principle...how me c's it s them that dus take the power ova luff r essentially soulless..an if they wernt..wudn b long fore they wer... they reely don wan ne 1 2 share that power wiv..they wanna own em... not how me wants 2 b.. but who knows..we a strange lot human beins..an do the oddest things at times... we like 2 think we wud do rite..but sumtimes..it jus aint in us...

Ha! Soullessness... an interesting concept, which I won't delve into too deeply in this thread. Although I'm not exactly sure what you're admitting to here, considering your previously stated answer to Sarasvati's question. But, I agree... humans can be unpredictable, and who knows what each of us would choose when tempted by the visions that the Goddesses hypothetically present to us.

That said, I think we're all already making these choices on a daily basis... one man seeks power, another seeks military prowess, and another seeks love. The "Goddesses" could just be seen as a mythical manifestation of these options. In reality, we ALL have a similar choice to make as Paris did. But I'd like to think that there are more than just 3 to choose from, and that we're not necessarily limited to just one.

[darkeyes]

Ha! Soullessness... an interesting concept, which I won't delve into too deeply in this thread. Although I'm not exactly sure what you're admitting to here, considering your previously stated answer to Sarasvati's question. But, I agree... humans can be unpredictable, and who knows what each of us would choose when tempted by the visions that the Goddesses hypothetically present to us.

That said, I think we're all already making these choices on a daily basis... one man seeks power, another seeks military prowess, and another seeks love. The "Goddesses" could just be seen as a mythical manifestation of these options. In reality, we ALL have a similar choice to make as Paris did. But I'd like to think that there are more than just 3 to choose from, and that we're not necessarily limited to just one.

Ifya thinkin me admittin 2 havina soul ala religie..not on ur Nellie..merely the innermost humanity an passions wich make us who we r.. Havin a soul don in Fran terms mean it gonna transcend 2 heaven or ne wer else wen ya die.. but it is who ya r...

[Annika L]

Sarasvati, I do not buy that rationality and value are at odds with one another.

I'll have you (and Skater) know that my response *was* my "gut reaction" to the question. Yes, I prettied up the presentation for you, but for me, that's what writing is about (the major difference between writing and chat). I think it is absurd to suggest that the same thoughts organized poorly would have had more value.

But I do find it necessary to clarify, especially for Fran, who shows appropriate fear of universal wealth and power: I would not choose universal wealth and power because I want universal wealth and power. I was given three choices, and of them, universal wealth and power was the least creepy (though they're all pretty creepy). Personally, if I thought I could get away with it, I would have joined Marie in fleeing for the hills...but goddesses don't tend to take that kind of behavior well. So I ended up with universal wealth and power.

The larger and more important question, which I did not address at all in my post is what would I *do* with said universal wealth and power?

[And yes, Sarasvati, you did answer my questions (whether or not I agree with those answers). Thank you!]

[Sarasvati]

Sarasvati, I do not buy that rationality and value are at odds with one another.

I'll have you (and Skater) know that my response *was* my "gut reaction" to the question. Yes, I prettied up the presentation for you, but for me, that's what writing is about (the major difference between writing and chat). I think it is absurd to suggest that the same thoughts organized poorly would have had more value.

Hello Annika,

Let me say that I don't think my comments that you are probably refering to have suggested any disunity between rationality and value. They are more about the mutual relationship between these two qualities.

I am somewhat confused by your second paragraph. I tried to show appreciation for your contribution. This thread will, by its nature, generate views from different angles of observation, each of special value.

Everything you or anyone else has to say here is worthwhile - and you may very well be a sharper analyst than myself on the subject.

The moment I launched a thread like this there is the joy of losing control of it and seeing others sail her in their own waters.

[Sarasvati]

“The sign of an intelligent people is their ability to control emotions by the application of reason.”

Marya Mannes


Its Emotional intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence) that is what determines your success in the end.

Hello Marie Delta,

Thank you also for your excellent challenges to my questions.

However I think if any society has shown the "sign" you mention in your quote it is the Ancient Greeks. And I insist the example of the Golden Apple does so impeccably. Don't forget it was a test instigated by the Goddess of Discord, Eris.

With regard to your mantra of "emotional intelligence", I think I will stick with the vicissitudes of cruel Eris and do without the "success" offered by your charter for automatons and donkeys.

[biwords]

Didn mean 2 squash Wordsie S...neva mean 2 squash ne 1.. well not much ne way.. merely let im c he hadn thought it all way through..as e dus 2 me at times...

An yea..e can b a pain in the bootie at times..but me likes im well enuff.. me luffs me partner 2 distraction but don stop me tellin er wots wot wen its needed.. an vikki verki..its the human way S..how it shud b...

An if me gets a chance 2 moren scan ya lil puzzle..then mayb me will say sum more..till then babes..jus tolerate me lil funnies... an me lil idiosyncs. Muah.:tong:

Naaaah, takes more than that to squash me....or offend me...though I think it would have been truer just to say that Fran's idealism played off excitingly against my La Rochefoucauld-like cynicism. Though, playing the idealist card, I could say that if you choose love, you gratify yourself and one other person, while if you choose 'universal power' your ability to do good for others, even for the whole world, would be unlimited. Fran has made it clear that she despises selfishness, so from that point of view, 'universal power' would still be a good choice.

[Annika L]

Hello Annika,

Let me say that I don't think my comments that you are probably refering to have suggested any disunity between rationality and value. They are more about the mutual relationship between these two qualities.


LOL!! I see right where we lost one another! (teach me to read more carefully next time, and hopefully you to write more carefully!) Forgive me some self-indulgent prattle, and let's see if I can unravel my reaction for you:


Annika I like your whole post and I think it is well thought out.

However, does not thinking actually sully the quality of a good decision? The absence of thought in the judgement rapidly elevates its virtue. But why?

Your second line here suggests fairly directly that rationality sullys the quality of a good decision...that rationality and quality are at odds. I disagree.


I am somewhat confused by your second paragraph. I tried to show appreciation for your contribution.

You did show appreciation for it, and then immediately after defeated that appreciation. Look carefully: according to you, my response was well thought-out...but then the implication was that thinking it through diminished its quality! I've heard of backhanded compliments before, but this constituted an interesting backhanded insult, no? LOL

I took no offense, really. It just struck me as strange.

Especially in light of Skater Boy's immediate response,


Perhaps an unthought of response is an indication of the true nature of our unconscious minds. Hence why psychologists often ask patients what is the FIRST THING that pops into their head while looking at certain images, and why certain creative outlets can be representative of one's psyche. whereas a thoroughly thought out response becomes subject to all the social and intellectual prejudices that one may feel or subscribe to, and not necessarily be a true indication of one's standpoint on a given issue? :2cents:


...it seemed necessary to point out that my reaction was a gut reaction...an "unthought of response"...an indication of the true nature of my unconscious mind.

Of course it didn't occur to me until just now reading through it all that both of you were talking only about Paris's decision, and not about mine at all (my, Annika, aren't you the self-absorbed one)! But of course, what is good for the gander is also good for the goose.

All of this leaves me with the question: if my gut reaction seems highly rational, then where does its quality stand? Can an emotional reaction be rational?

In any case, thanks for an interesting discussion! :tongue:

[Skater Boy]

Annika, I feel I should point out that my posts in this thread represented my views on the spot, and may not necessarily coincide with Sarasvati's. It is my opinion that, on occasion, Sarasvati actively courts a little confusion and likes to shrowd his logic im mystery. But no doubt he'll explain himself further, if he sees fit.

[MarieDelta]

Hello Marie Delta,

Thank you also for your excellent challenges to my questions.

However I think if any society has shown the "sign" you mention in your quote it is the Ancient Greeks. And I insist the example of the Golden Apple does so impeccably. Don't forget it was a test instigated by the Goddess of Discord, Eris.

With regard to your mantra of "emotional intelligence", I think I will stick with the vicissitudes of cruel Eris and do without the "success" offered by your charter for automatons and donkeys.

I agree with you that the Ancient Greeks were onto something powerful.

Hey, they were a great society, and we wouldn't know about their myths if they weren't.

However, I don't think they are the be all and end all of what humans can & should be.

Nor do I believe that we can totally discard feelings, I do however believe that feelings are not the total answer. They do help us with our decisions, for good or ill. But they cannot be a basis for a just and good society. Feelings such as Xenophobia, Racism, homophobia just aren't that uncommon.


Just remember one thing: The Eumenides were the Erinyes (Furies) at one time. The furies were assigned with the task of driving men (criminals) mad.

And this from Dionysus:

"The female worshippers of Dionysus were known as Maenads, who often experienced divine ecstasy. Pentheus was slowly driven mad by the compelling Dionysus, and lured to the woods of Mount Cithaeron to see the Maenads. When the women spied Pentheus, they tore him to pieces like they did earlier in the play to a herd of cattle. Brutally, his head was torn off by his mother Agave as he begged for his life."


Emotions are needed for us to have the full life that is ours as humans and not automatons but we must temper those emotions with reason. For with out reason we are nothing more, or less than animals.

[Sarasvati]

You did show appreciation for it, and then immediately after defeated that appreciation. Look carefully: according to you, my response was well thought-out...but then the implication was that thinking it through diminished its quality! I've heard of backhanded compliments before, but this constituted an interesting backhanded insult, no? LOL

...it seemed necessary to point out that my reaction was a gut reaction...an "unthought of response"...an indication of the true nature of my unconscious mind.

All of this leaves me with the question: if my gut reaction seems highly rational, then where does its quality stand? Can an emotional reaction be rational?

In any case, thanks for an interesting discussion! :tongue:

I must protest my innocence here Annika. There was absolutely no intention on my part to insult you in any way. In order to construct my own sentences I have also had to employ thought and rationality. It would be hypocritical of me to attack you for something I have also done myself.

My question about the detrimental application of thought referred to Paris - not you. The question posits a general principle, in reply to your own statements, and possibly hints at a paradox in the human condition.

We are merely exploring and probing our ideas with this thread Annika. I completely welcome your arguments and intellect and have no desire to insult you at all. I like to be opinionated and love others to return it back with vigour, just like yourself.

The flow of your ideas following your comment about "gut reaction" seems to show you wrestling with that aforementioned paradox.

You present a fabulous glimpse of your own self awareness in those lines. Do you not recognise, right there, the merit of this thread in the quality of question you asked yourself?

[Annika L]

I must protest my innocence here Annika. There was absolutely no intention on my part to insult you in any way.

My question about the detrimental application of thought referred to Paris - not you.


I am not accusing you of attacking me, sir! I found the implication in your words (by turns) absurd and then humorous and pointed this out. Enough said. (ok, maybe not quite enough: why is it detrimental for Paris to think, but not for me or for you?)

And if I had ever questioned the merit of this thread, I would not have posted a response to it, let alone carried on a dialog this far. On the contrary, it's been a most interesting exploration! :tong: