Sexism and the little Tart

[darkeyes]

"Over ere we hav the 4 F's. Find.. Feel..Fuck.. Forget... how lotsa guys seem 2 operate... an every 1 reelly happy for em..even lotsa women who don seemta mind... they jus Jack the lads sowin a few wild oats.. so gud luk 2 em..its expected an tacitly accepted.

However even in this day an age... aftar 40 odd years of so called sexual liberation if a gal employs the 4 F's she is a slut... a whore.. a trollop.. a tart... a gudtime girl...not a nice person forya nice 4 effin sons 2 marry an raise ther kids or go out wiv... cept of course for a shag...

Knows this aint strictly on subject.. but AZ posts brot it 2 mind... an its a common discourtesy an dubble standard wich all who think it an employ it..shud b thoroughly ashamed off...

"Sluts" hav passions an feelins 2 an a lil more consideration an courtesy an respect wud not go amiss..."



I wrote the above in another thread a few days ago. It prompted an accusation of sexism from someone I have known in chat for several years. It does not worry me, for he and I have crossed swords before and no doubt will again. It seems to be the way between us and friction blows up every so often, and so I just accept it as his little way. Like me he is opinionated and a bit of a smart arse. But I digress.

My main reason in reprinting and leading with the post is because I believe it is a reasonable statement to make about the current state of play of how women are considered in my country when it comes to sexual matters, and I suspect in the English speaking world as a whole. In other parts of the world women acting as I have done, and pursuing sexual adventures just like a man does would be a stoning offence at least!

I do not and did not say that all men think as I have outlined, I said lots, and it is a fact of life. Whether it is most or just many I cannot say. But it is a lot!
What is sauce for the goose, is not always sauce for the gander (or should it in this case at least be the other way around) it seems in the minds of many men. I do not say that there are not women who think and act just as these dinosaurs, for there are. But they do notmake the same judgements normally that their male counterparts make, and generally are a little more enlightened at least. I do say that it is more prevalent among men for historical and social reasons. What makes thing worse, is that many women, by accident or design seem to accept it as something which always has been and always shall be. I do not accept this as a premise.

If we believe in real equality of the sexes then what is sauce for one must by definition be sauce for the other. This involves respecting the beliefs and opinions of each partner and doing nothing which their morality and sense of decency would not countenance. Of course these things should always be sorted prior to entering any marriage or partnership. But all too often they are not. We fall in love, and its only after living together that we begin to discover fundamental differences beteen each others standards of morality. I am no innocent in this either, for Ive acted exactly like that myself.

I do not expect that everyone will agree with anything I have said. Thats not the point. I believe it to be how our world is, and my observations of our world (at least in the UK), and in many of the posts I have read in here makes me conclude that I am right in my assertion.

I believe that deep down our society does more readily accept men sowing their wild oats, and having extra marital relationships secretively from the female partner, than it does the other way around. It is a historical and social anachronism and as such should never be accepted. The latter part of my statement is simply called cheating, but while society officially takes a dim view of it, and often awards very heavy punitive damages to the offended against in the divorce courts, deep down it is a shrug of the shoulders and a grudging admiration of the offender. That of course if it is a man. If it is a woman, then sit in any pub, train or bus, and listen to what people say about her!! The words used are not of grudging admiration but rather less complimentary epithets.

If my assertions bring out accusations of sexism so be it. I am not a sexist whatever some people may say. I do not want superiority over men, merely to be considered their true equal. Even in this more enlightened age, I cannot say that this is yet the case in all things in general, and in matters sexual in particular.

[allbimyself]

My dear, dear, fran,

Yes, in your post you didn't imply all men, I apologize. However, when I originally read that, my interpretation of your words was colored by things you have said and done in the past. You often paint men with a broad stroke based on the actions of others. Maybe you aren't sexist, but you do tend to prejudge us as guilty until proven innocent.

That said, I do fully agree with you that most men in western society do tend to have a double standard when it comes to promiscuity and I do not agree with it.

I believe many of those men who believe that are insecure. Don't want the woman to have a base of reference to know what a lame ass fuck he is. If we took a survey of men to establish their beliefs on this matter and compared it to a survey of women on how satisfactory those men performed, we'd find a direct correlation.

[darkeyes]

Falls down wiv cardiac arrest... allbi an me agreein?? God!!! Havta put a stop 2 that!!!:bigrin:

Allbi, I do agree that sometimes I can be very quick to judge, and often like anyone else Ive come to regret that judgement. I am not a saint (even if an angel) an am deeply flawed like anyone else. And yes often I do paint with broad strokes, but like many of the things I say about many different topics, the trick is too work out whether what I say is in jest, and I say a great deal in fun, from what I say in all seriousness. But you do have a point, and its something I try to control but being me its not always the easiest of tasks. It is in the general broad brush stroke I tend to judge people mostly, men in particular, but women too more often than you may imagine, and often give an impression I mean all when in fact I mean many or even most. A fault, and you wouldnt be the first to point it out, and I have no doubt you wont be the last, although believe it or not I am much better than I once was in this respect. I must be getting old and boring.

But I am a deeply passionate human being, a bit hot tempered and sometimes this makes me say and write things which with some little time to really think things through, I would have said differently or even not at all.

Thank you for your comments, and I'm not sure just how comfortable I am with us being so closely in agreement. Maybe I will get used to it. lol:tong:

Finally, do you start the thread on my alleged mysandry or do I???:bigrin:

[MarieDelta]

Unfortunately the double standrard affects more than just sex.

Women are (on the whole) expected to do more for less, with a better attitude.

Women who are strong and demanding are often labeled as psuedo men(i.e. Atty General Janet Reno) or B!tches ( Hillary Clinton). While men are tough and strong.


It goes even to physical abuse: Men who are abused (or raped) are often seen as comical figures, while women are portrayed in a more sypathetic light if abused. Neither should be a figure of comedy.

My point is not that we abolish these ( although we should give it our best effort). But that we at least acknowledge them. Maybe that will lead to awareness of the problems.

Anyways there is my $.02

Marie

[darkeyes]

Kate has jus had a rite go at me cosa u Allbi! (well cosa me dopeyness but will give u blame jus the same..tee hee) Seems me wosn gracious enuff accept ya apology... soz hun... it wos jus a wee oversite.. ty Allbi for ya luffly apology... it wos much appreciated honest.. an if ya wants me will say it in English 2... can do that for ya 2...:tong:

[Skater Boy]

Tbh, I do prefer my women to be somewhat restrained when it comes to promiscuity. But I don't think that its unreasonable of me, because I apply the exact same standards to myself as I would to her. I don't sleep with everyone I meet, so I wouldn't expect any potential female partner to do so either. There's nothing wrong with sexual liberation and exploring one's sexuality. As long as everything is consentual, I'm all for it, and wouldn't dare to deny a woman her right to do so. But I'm not a slut, and I probably wouldn't want to date one either.

[darkeyes]

Yas rite Marie in wotya say... didn mean this thread 2 go inta general discussion bout sexism but am easy wiv that... it is fundamentally important that wen sexism adversely affects men, such as wen they r raped.. that they get more than a giggle outa the authorities, an its taken every bit as seriously as wen a woman is raped, an every effort is made to give them the justice they deserve. The trauma is fukkin awful an men shudn b treated ne the less sympathetic cos they r men an cosa wer the intrusion occurs... the mental scarrin is dreadful, an they hav the same rite 2 justice as ne woman.

[allbimyself]

Awww, the cuddly one is such a sweetie! She must've got my contribution to the boot fund.

Luvs ya both, you know that.

[slocum5]

This comment is not designed to curry favor with the ladies, but I have no objection to same.

As an ancient member of the group, perhaps I can offer some insight. In the 1950's the double standard prevailed. Nonetheless, so called illicit sexual activity abounded. High school boys would lie, grovel, slobber and do cart wheels to get into the panties of the girls. When finally successful. they would promptly hie to the locker room, beat their chests, declare their manly success with that "little Whore." An older male friend advised me to keep my mouth shut if I wanted to be successful. I heeded his advise. Was never a master swordsman, but I know I had more success than the "kiss and condemn" crowd.

The sixties changed all that for about 15 years. Men and women were just people. The female libidos came alive. Free love abounded. "Make love, not war" was the slogan. "Don't trust anyone over 30," was another. Surely, the older generation condemned the activity, but the younger generation simply tuned them out. Female bisexuality was welcomed. Male bisexuality was far less accepted, as it still is. However, bi couples had no difficulty locating other bi couples through swinging publications. (The route my lady and I followed.) It was a marvelous time. Men and women were buddies

Then came herpes, followed by AIDS which dampened the activity substantially. (My lady and I, together with three other bi couples elected to restrict our activities to the four couples.) This was also the point in time that radical femminism declared that even consensual intercourse was in fact a rape of the woman. The sexes began to polarize again.

For reasons unclear to me, we reverted to the attitude that sexually successful men are admired, while successful women are whores. It's not as bad as the fifties. It is surprising that the attitude resurfaced.

I'm still friends with the gals who blessed me with their favors as a teenager and proud of it. There husbands don't know and don't need to know.

Just the ramblings of an old dude.

[izzfan]

I know this may be a bit controversial but I think one of the reasons that the "Double Standard" came about in the old days was due to biology, because men can't get pregnant they suffered much less in terms of consequences if they slept around. Obviously due to the availability of contraceptives these days - such views are completely outdated but they are still well and truly ingrained in the public consciousness and it will probably take centuries for these views to die out completely.

To be honest though, when this 'double standard' is abolished, I'd rather it came out more towards the 'open minded' end of the spectrum. Eg: allowing promiscous women to be seen as 'studs'/'experienced' rather than condemning promiscuous men for being 'sluts'/'whores'. Free love and all that sort of thing.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of double standards - there are probably just as many that put men at a disadvantage. Some examples:

- Women in trousers are seen as pretty 'normal' but if a man wears a skirt/dress then people tend to make all sorts of comments and there is a lot of prejudice etc...
- In Wimbledon, the women get the same prize money for playing 2 less games... where's the equality in that?
- Showing men to be stupid etc... in adverts is fine, but if you show a women in that way there are howls of 'sexism'
- Feminism is taught in schools/colleges/universities in any course or subject with a theoretical aspect but little emphasis is placed on masculinity or anti-feminist arguments [which are usually quite interesting]
- The whole crying thing... personally, I think if we're going to have equality on that it should go towards it being seen as highly embarassing for both genders to cry in public... not just men, but that's just me being cynical lol.
- "female only" car insurance and gyms... I don't have so much of a problem with the gyms. But if there were "male only" car insurance companies and gyms then there would be all sorts of hysteria and outcry from the feminists/political correctness brigades/ tabloids
- the whole thing about there being less prejudice against female bisexuals... although this probably has more to do with homophobia/biphobia than double standards.....
- The fact that we have a minister for women & equality but no minister for men
- How fathers are treated by the family courts [ I mean, there is a reason why groups such as fathers4justice exist... I've read about how men get completely screwed over in family courts.... one of the many reasons why I hope never to have kids]
- Male victims of domestic violence [ they do exist] are often ignored by the authorities or treated as criminals.
- anything to do with "positive discrimination" in terms of gender... positive discrimination is still discrimination
- the vast gap between funding for breast cancer and prostate cancer
- If a young girl is quite boyish, she is often affectionatley labelled as a 'Tomboy' and it is generally seen as a reasonably good/well-tolerated thing. However, if a young boy is quite girly then he is often bullied and subjected to all sorts of homophobic insults/derogatory terms.
- prison sentences and conditions are generally a lot more lenient for women

I could go on for a long time, but it is important to realise that double standards don't just affect women. Nevertheless, (in my opinion) the whole stud/slut double standard became outdated as soon as effective contraceptives were invented.

Just my :2cents:

Izzfan :flag3:

[arana]

Hmmmm, allbi and fran agreeing, apologizing and not a cleaver in sight. Did I miss hell freezing over??? :tong:

[TaylorMade]

women's only colleges. They insisted on integrating VMI and The Citadel, but you think they'll EVER allow for integration of Smith, Spelman or Wellesley?

And at this point in history, it could be argued for integration of women's college, since in many areas women are now outnumbering men in the classroom.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Hmmmm, allbi and fran agreeing, apologizing and not a cleaver in sight. Did I miss hell freezing over??? :tong:

Collapses onto knees...cups face in hands... tears streemin down face..shoulders heavin... huge blubs... wails "O the shame ..the shame.... me life is ova.. how can me liv this down.. world is at an end.....".

[darkeyes]

Tbh, I do prefer my women to be somewhat restrained when it comes to promiscuity. But I don't think that its unreasonable of me, because I apply the exact same standards to myself as I would to her. I don't sleep with everyone I meet, so I wouldn't expect any potential female partner to do so either. There's nothing wrong with sexual liberation and exploring one's sexuality. As long as everything is consentual, I'm all for it, and wouldn't dare to deny a woman her right to do so. But I'm not a slut, and I probably wouldn't want to date one either.

Wud u elaborate on this Skater.... yas sayin yas not a slut..me can accept that.. wetha yas slept wiv nun or 1000 peeps me don think yas a slut or ne 1 else is.. ya sayin that if yas choosy bout who ya shag... an ya hav it way wiv 1000 peeps yas chosen yas not a slut.. but if yas not choosy an ya shags an has it way wiv jus bout ne 1 ya r???

[Skater Boy]

Wud u elaborate on this Skater.... yas sayin yas not a slut..me can accept that.. wetha yas slept wiv nun or 1000 peeps me don think yas a slut or ne 1 else is.. ya sayin that if yas choosy bout who ya shag... an ya hav it way wiv 1000 peeps yas chosen yas not a slut.. but if yas not choosy an ya shags an has it way wiv jus bout ne 1 ya r???

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a "slut". But IMHO there IS such a thing as being "too promiscuous". Whether its a matter of quality or quantity is debatable. But even if there ISN'T such a thing as a slut, I was just stating that some people actually prefer those who know how to keep their knickers/pants on. Maybe its a "supply and demand" thing... high availability= low prices and vice versa. Not suggesting that money should be involved, but obviously we could replace retail value with personal value on some level.

In all honesty, Fran... I did wonder whether it was really equality you are seeking, or rather absolution for your sins. But you don't seem like the type to repent for something you enjoyed, so I'm guessing you just don't like being labelled as a slut.

Not that I'm calling you a slut... as I don't know you anywhere near well enough to judge you on your sexual history. And even if I did, I wouldn't do so unless the potential for a romantic relationship between us arose. And in reality that does seem somewhat unlikely.

In the end, I guess all that matters is that everyone is happy and acts responsibly. My advice to any "promiscuous people" would be to try not to worry too much about public opinion, as long as you are fulfilling your ambitions and doing so safely, thats probably all that matters.

[darkeyes]

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a "slut". But IMHO there IS such a thing as being "too promiscuous". Whether its a matter of quality or quantity is debatable. But even if there ISN'T such a thing as a slut, I was just stating that some people actually prefer those who know how to keep their knickers/pants on. Maybe its a "supply and demand" thing... high availability= low prices and vice versa. Not suggesting that money should be involved, but obviously we could replace retail value with personal value on some level.

In all honesty, Fran... I did wonder whether it was really equality you are seeking, or rather absolution for your sins. But you don't seem like the type to repent for something you enjoyed, so I'm guessing you just don't like being labelled as a slut.

Not that I'm calling you a slut... as I don't know you anywhere near well enough to judge you on your sexual history. And even if I did, I wouldn't do so unless the potential for a romantic relationship between us arose. And in reality that does seem somewhat unlikely.

In the end, I guess all that matters is that everyone is happy and acts responsibly. My advice to any "promiscuous people" would be to try not to worry too much about public opinion, as long as you are fulfilling your ambitions and doing so safely, thats probably all that matters.

Gettin absolution for me sins babes is summat if we feel we hav sinned prob mos do in our own way.. me no diff than ne 1 else from that.. God knows me has dun lotsa things that me feels is a sin... but me sex life aint 1a them... don consider it as a sin but as me rite a as human bein 2 enjoy it so long as me don abuse an hurt otha peeps wile havin me fun..

No me don accept ne 1 is a slut for doin wot afta all is a luffly enjoyable thing.. no matta how often ya dus it.. an wiv howeva many partners... fact that Naggy an me r togetha gain an me not goin round lookin for ne 1 else 2get laid by don change me view on that.. me knows how an wen 2 keep me knickers on ok.. don fret bout that..

Think me sed it in ere before sumwer, but me an me m8s r always callin each otha the slut word, an otha things..whore, tart (me fave) trollop... dus it in chat 2... but thats fun tween freinds... don mean eitha we accept it or think thats wot we r... cud b argued that we r perpetuatin the insult an not payin sufficient respect 2 ourselvs or our sex... but don reely accept that.. its a bitta fun an a bit like callin ya best m8 a bastard, son of a bitch or a fukker in jest...

An worryin bout opinion is last thing on me mind... peeps like me or lump me (lump me sed..not hump ya silly sod!) Hav been wot society calls promiscuous... know wot it means but it jus leaves mucky taste in the mouth. Its condescendin an disparigin..

If slut whore an tart ther b in the world it aint ne who drop ther knickers an hav a gud ole time enjoyin ther sex life wiv whomseva they please... it them that deliberately go out eitha 2 infect or hurt peeps wile doin it... destroy lifes..me has otha words for them tho that fit much betta.. viscious selfish greedy parasitical arseholes bout fits the bill.. them of us that simply do or hav gon out inta the world 2 enjoy ourselves an hopefully help othas do the same can neva b called that..

An in this world, if sluts, whores, tarts ther b ..they aint peeps who hav owt 2do wiv sex..they peeps who rape this world an its peeps, an plunder all that is gud outa the planet wivout a care for ne 1 but themselves... an me has words for them bastards 2....

[Skater Boy]

Well, I just looked up the word "slut" in the dictionary, and it said: "dirty or immoral woman". So I guess you're right that "sluttism" may be related to sexual morality rather than quality or quantity. Although I didn't imply that it wasn't. However, I'm aware that morality and "dirtiness" are, to some degree, subjective and relative... so the exact definition of what constitutes being "slutty" is obviously going to be rather vague. and I'm sure some will prefer it that way.

The modern use of the word "slut" has, IMO, developed to include to men, and generally just refers to someone who is either promiscuous or "easy". More often than not I think it refers to the latter.

But, I can see that some people feel that all sexual urges should be submitted to rather than strictly governed, and thats their right to believe so.

[darkeyes]

Morality me darlin Skater is all subjective... every society has its own wich is as often as not pretty much shite ne way... an as individuals we all hav our own.... so question is..in reality dus morality even exist?? Now thers summat 2 ponder...

[Skater Boy]

Morality me darlin Skater is all subjective... every society has its own wich is as often as not pretty much shite ne way... an as individuals we all hav our own.... so question is..in reality dus morality even exist?? Now thers summat 2 ponder...

Yeah, I guess morality IS subjective to some extent. But some of it is a social construct of the environment we live in, IMO. In other words, the societal general consensus on a particular issue, coupled with its legal implications, will partly dictate whether something is morally acceptable or not. Obviously this "general consensus" varies from place to place around the globe, and is in constant flux as is the Zeitgeist.

So if one is seeking a "true" morality, then it really doesn't exist. but whilst we live within any given society, we must either accept the majority of prevailing moral ideologies at that time; just submit to being a "morally counter-hegemonic"; or attempt to change them.

I suspect the latter is what you would like to do.

[**Peg**]

.. an if ya wants me will say it in English 2... can do that for ya 2...:tong:

jeez Fran, and this after ya just got me all trained to read your "not a dialect", hehe

[darkeyes]

jeez Fran, and this after ya just got me all trained to read your "not a dialect", hehe

yas fine peg..e didn ask.. tee hee... an e betta not now... me has MASSIVE hangova.....:(

[dafydd]

darkeyes,

why do you write in a mixture of scot's speak and english? I am just curious. Most of the time I skim over your scot's speak posts because i can't be bothered. But now with your english replies I find myself actually finding you interesting.

d


Falls down wiv cardiac arrest... allbi an me agreein?? God!!! Havta put a stop 2 that!!!:bigrin:

Allbi, I do agree that sometimes I can be very quick to judge, and often like anyone else Ive come to regret that judgement. I am not a saint (even if an angel) an am deeply flawed like anyone else. And yes often I do paint with broad strokes, but like many of the things I say about many different topics, the trick is too work out whether what I say is in jest, and I say a great deal in fun, from what I say in all seriousness. But you do have a point, and its something I try to control but being me its not always the easiest of tasks. It is in the general broad brush stroke I tend to judge people mostly, men in particular, but women too more often than you may imagine, and often give an impression I mean all when in fact I mean many or even most. A fault, and you wouldnt be the first to point it out, and I have no doubt you wont be the last, although believe it or not I am much better than I once was in this respect. I must be getting old and boring.

But I am a deeply passionate human being, a bit hot tempered and sometimes this makes me say and write things which with some little time to really think things through, I would have said differently or even not at all.

Thank you for your comments, and I'm not sure just how comfortable I am with us being so closely in agreement. Maybe I will get used to it. lol:tong:

Finally, do you start the thread on my alleged mysandry or do I???:bigrin:

[CuddlyKate]

She gets very exasperated when people call it Scots speak. It isnt anything of the sort. If she wrote in Scots (which she can and very well too) then you would have real problems.

[darkeyes]

Jeez babes.. wot is it wiv the Welsh... don ne sod teach em eff all???:tong: