Cut down that flag!

[qchamp]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!

[darkeyes]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!

Chump babes..me likes ya..but yas talkin arsehole bollox ere... its a rag on a pole as Dick Sharp say.. it don matta... every country has its probs an its bad points.. an if ne 1 wants 2 bitch or carp bout ne country let em..chill...its ther rite...

Ifya think theyre rong argue wiv em.. but for fuks sake ya don jus boot em out cos ya don like wot they say...

... or aintya the land of the free afta all???

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

It does get a little old doesn't it champ ? So much has changed. So divided. But if I just stay in my little town of friendly folk, I hardly notice what is going on in the world. Often makes it easier.

[Dagni]

Champ, i think you took it all serious. Flag, so what?
I also may say that America is good or bad, it's all depends on aspect what i like and what i don't like in America, so afterall it's personal opinion, but i would never take that too serious.

You should hear such weird jokes that we and Swedes are making here on every field, specialy in sport. That's fun.

[warmpuppy]

It's more than a rag on a pole. It's a historic symbol of what unites us as a country. I wish more people would honor our customs and courtesies.

While on this topic, people need to understand that the flag is a symbol of us as a people. It is not the banner of the Government of the United States. If you hate the current Government and/or GW, that's your privilege. However, don't take out your hatred on the people in general. That's what you do when you disgrace the flag.

The song, "God Bless America" is also about us as a people. The song isn't titled "God Bless the Government of the United States of America." We need to be intelligent enough to make that distinction.

That's why I get so upset every time I see Obama standing there without his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is being played. He demonstrates his hatred for us as a people every time he insults the National Anthem and our customs.

[vices2habits]

If only there was as much concern for the Constitution -- and when it is being shredded and trampled upon with impunity -- as there is for the flag, maybe we'd begin to make some progress here. However, the sad fact is that an embarassingly large majority of Americans have never even bothered to read any of the Constitution for themselves, and many do not have the slightest idea (or even the slightest curiosity) why it says what it says. Flag-rage is fast-food easy, but responsible citizenship takes a little bit of work... work that all too many Americans simply won't bother to do.

:cool:

[CUMM2LBV]

I don't think GCHAMP'S concerns are misplaced or misguided.

If this country is such a terrible place, why are so many trying to get in?

The great beauty of the American culture is its diversity. It will happily and willingly embrace you as it has embraced the millions who came before you.

That said, it is our culture and we are proud of it. If you don't care to embrace it, return to the dung heap you came from.

[darkeyes]

It's more than a rag on a pole. It's a historic symbol of what unites us as a country. I wish more people would honor our customs and courtesies.

While on this topic, people need to understand that the flag is a symbol of us as a people. It is not the banner of the Government of the United States. If you hate the current Government and/or GW, that's your privilege. However, don't take out your hatred on the people in general. That's what you do when you disgrace the flag.

The song, "God Bless America" is also about us as a people. The song isn't titled "God Bless the Government of the United States of America." We need to be intelligent enough to make that distinction.

That's why I get so upset every time I see Obama standing there without his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is being played. He demonstrates his hatred for us as a people every time he insults the National Anthem and our customs.

It is a rag on a pole.Love the flag, defend the flag. Jeez. Nations are conglomerations of people of many different origins and persuasions. Maybe if we got ourselves worked up a little more about our nations being resposible for their contempt for their own and the citizes of other lands I may have more sympathy for flags....symbols of rampant nationalism and misguided patriotism.. not of the truth of a nations peoples heart or its governments wisdom.

[vices2habits]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!


Excuse me? You think that only those who agree with you are so-called "real Americans?"

That misguided opinion is not American at all... it is fascist.

Fascists should be the first to get out... there is no place for fascists in America.

:2cents:

[Moto1]

While on this topic, people need to understand that the flag is a symbol of us as a people. It is not the banner of the Government of the United States. If you hate the current Government and/or GW, that's your privilege. However, don't take out your hatred on the people in general. That's what you do when you disgrace the flag.

The song, "God Bless America" is also about us as a people. The song isn't titled "God Bless the Government of the United States of America." We need to be intelligent enough to make that distinction.

So... when you sing your national anthem you are saying: "God bless ME, and the people who live on the same part of the continent!" Yeah, that's a great moral standpoint... :rolleyes:

Unless you are being so stupid as to be telling your divine being of choice that you (as a people) deserve more bless than anyone else, then you must be talking about your culture and direction in both foreign and domestic policy, that which turns a group of people into a country. In a democratic state the people have no excuse for the actions of their government. Fundamentally it was YOU who gave them the power, YOU who shaped what they had to do to keep it, and it it YOU who can remove them. A criticism against the government in a democratic country, if the problem is not solved, is a criticism against the people.


If this country is such a terrible place, why are so many trying to get in?

Oh dear god don't lets get into this again...


It is a rag on a pole.Love the flag, defend the flag. Jeez. Nations are conglomerations of people of many different origins and persuasions. Maybe if we got ourselves worked up a little more about our nations being resposible for their contempt for their own and the citizes of other lands I may have more sympathy for flags....symbols of rampant nationalism and misguided patriotism.. not of the truth of a nations peoples heart or its governments wisdom.

However the idea that such reverence should be shown for a flag, regardless of it's hypothetical representation, seems just daft to me.

[arana]

Wow, guess this was for me huh Q-bert? Sorry I upset you but I think if he was really concerned and offended by this, he should have just taken action instead of calling the news and waiting for them to go out and film him doing it. If you see a crime you don't wait for a news van, you do what's right. There was no mention of him ever trying to get it taken down peacefully or telling the owner he was doing something illegal, he just went and cut it down. I think he wanted to be patted on the back for his patriotism...there are vets all over that have done far more and didn't even get so much as a thank you let alone media coverage for what they did. I'm not saying what he did was wrong, but that he wanted attention for doing what was right. Selfless acts are far more genuine.

[MarieDelta]

The Flag (our flag, any flag) has certain courtesy’s and customs associated with it. What the guy did that cut down the Mexican flag was discourteous to that flag, but also the person flying the flags at unequal levels was also being discourteous (to both).

IMO It's like someone p!ssing in the public fountain, something no one wants to see, but it does happen. Ya just gotta clean up the mess afterwards.

We should be able to talk about why the flags were being flown wrong. Is the person from Mexico and doesn't understand the customs? Is he trying to send a message? Or is the guy an american trying to send a message about illegal immigration?


Lots of question here.

We are not at war with Mexico, even though I'll be the first to admit that it feels like an invasion from time to time.

Both issues (immigration, and treatment of the flag) are divisive, highly charged issues. Neither of which have been totally resolved to my satisfaction.

The flag is a symbol, yes, and brave men and women have died to protect it. But more have died to protect their fellow man, and isn't that what we should be about?

[12voltman59]

In this case--there were two wrongs committed here.

First--it was improper international flag flying protocol for the Mexican flag to be flown above the American flag, especially on the same flag staff.

The protocol states that all national flags are to be flown on individual flag staffs at equal heights.

So, for this business owner to have flown the flag of any nation on the same staff and above a flag of any other nation is wrong----

He had to have some idea that it would piss people off!!

But that said--while the man who got pissed about it and did something about the flag was right to be pissed---his cutting down the flags was wrong--it was in a purely legal sense----both vandalism and destruction of property and therefore--he should have been charged with those misdemeanor offenses-or at least return the flags and make some sort of recompense to the flag owner in order to head off such charges being filed.

I am a veteran too--but that does not mean that I could be free to undertake unilateral action about those flags.

I would have talked to that business owner and explained to him the fact that he had violated flag flying protocol--if that failed---I next would have gone to the city offices and/or to the local Chamber of Commerce, especially if they have an Hispanic business Chamber---try to have someone from either the city, like the mayor or an Hispanic city council member (I am sure that town has at least one Latin council member) or someone from the Chamber go talk to the man--and let him know it was inflammatory to be flying the Mexican flag over the American flag.

There are proper ways to handle things---the way the guy did it was improper-he had no right to cut down those flags.

As far as using that old slogan of "America. Love it or Leave it"--that is a whole other issue to address---I may have to post on that in its own thread.

[Bluebiyou]

It's just a rag?
Perhaps using an analytical, apolitical view, yes.
There is also 'mob perception'. "If we erode the popular sense of unity and society, we can progressively infringe upon a society and invade it with our agenda (and to hell with any consequential damage)." This is true for the radical feminists who outwardly proclaimed in the 70s and 80s their objective was to destroy American society in order to inject feminist agenda. The same is for Mexicans who want to escape Mexico/latin America. Soon (already, actually) Americans will have Mexicans... yes Mexicans... marching the streets of the usa protesting usa imigration laws. You know if usa was attacking Mexico and Mexicans came up here to protest, they'd have a leg to stand on.
Perhaps 1000s of Americans should go to Scotland, fully armed to protest Scotland's firearm restrictions. After all a Mexican should be able to escape Mexico to get a piece of Usa pie, and Americans should exert their right to go to Scotland fully armed. But before Americans are packing heat in Scotland, perhaps we should send some ahead to put the American flag above the Scottish flag on Scottish soil; just to help erode reasonable defenses of Scottish society.
Okay, okay, I'm playfully digging (hopefully not too offensively) at Darkeyes (Scotland), but you understand what I'm saying here.
A typical bully will progressively step by step invade your personal space/property/privacy closer and closer until able to deliver his agenda. At what point do you say 'Stop!'... after it is too late?
So, yes it was a very good thing to cut down the Mexican flag... and a VERY proper thing to wait until media showed up. Cutting it down SHOULD be prominently publicly displayed. IMHO
Will ya ever forgive me, Darkeyes?:rolleyes:

[slocum5]

Very divisive subject and can be colored by experience. If your group of GIs are returning to camp lugging two dead buddies, the sight of "Old Glory" can be nearly as welcome as holding your first born. ( actually, holding your first born is miles ahead of the flag.) Nonetheless, in those circumstances, one tends to establish a strong emotional bond for the symbol. Considering the negativity prevalent toward America, it occurs to me that FDR should have adopted a Chamberlain solution with respect to WW2. Perhaps we should have struck a bargain with Hitler and Tojo. Hitler would have been reassured that he could conquer the British Isles, Russia and all of Africa he wanted. Japan could have all of southeast Asia and China. Millions of American, British, German and Japanese boys would have been saved and the A-Bombs would not have been dropped, saving thousands of Japanese civilian lives.

[jeancarleo]

I'm a Mexican and I agree each flag should have been placed in a different pole. I got mad because the man burned the flag but I would have done the same thing in my country lol. So it's just reactions we get to things and it all depends on how we're feeling in that moment.
I myself came here for a better life and I've been living here since I was 12 and I love both countries so much that I feel I need to be in both places. So people come here to make more money because in Mexico right now people make $8 dollars a day and prices in supermarkets are like the ones over here so it's hard to live there with so much government corruption.
I love the freedom in this country because even my parents are divorced and both remarried a different person but my family here accepts me as bisexual when my family in mexico don't want to know about it or reject me.
America is the land of freedom and I wouldn't be happy if I wasn't here.

[Moto1]

... evidently we have a culture difference here.

It's just that I've never come across the idea that flying a piece of cloth with a symbol on it higher than another piece of cloth with a different logo on it was a mortal sin...

[country60]

First of all I agree whole heartedly with GChamp and all the other AMERICANS who stand up for OUR country! If you are in another country and consider your flag "a rag on pole" so be it, that is not what the flag of MY COUNTRY is to me. I could not even read all the posts here without getting just plain pissed.

If you are in this country legally part of being here is adapting yourself to OUR customs and belifes not try to bring the crap that you left behind here. Remember, you left there to get away from that stuff. If I were to move to the UK or some other country I would need to adapt to what they are doing not try to forse them to adapt to me.

No one is saying you need to forget your heritage to become an American, just that you need to respect this country if you are going to stay. Hell I am proud of my Irish, German, English and Norwegan heritage. But I am first of all AMERICAN.

If you are an American citizen, there is certain edict that goes with flying a flag. If you do not know what it is Google "American Flag edict" and find out. Better yet look at any public building in this country and see that NO FLAG FLIES ABOVE THE FLAG OF OUR NATION! Living by these standards is what being an American is all about!!

This is my opion it is all so my story and I am sticking to it. There was a bumper sticker around during the Viet Nam war that said "America- Love It or Leave It" those words have never rang so true in my heart as they do when some thing like this comes up.

[darkeyes]

Flags ova peeps...o well.. neva reely accepted em a sympol of owt... id mark mayb of werya cum from but 2 b treated wiv such reverence?? God forbid! Flags ova peeps..flags ova morality..flags ova conscience. Flags ova life. If thats wot flags mean the me glad me believes wot me dus.

Flagwaving jingoistic bollox is quite simply sickenin 2 me. Peeps of every nation do it. Feel wotya dus for ya people..for ya beliefs and for ya wer ya cum from..but for a flag?? Fuk me... soona we get shotta the nation states an ther flags the betta if it means such destructive attitudes an contempt for difference. Flags aint important... peeps r...

[Moto1]

Better yet look at any public building in this country and see that NO FLAG FLIES ABOVE THE FLAG OF OUR NATION! Living by these standards is what being an American is all about!!

Really? You are happy to stand there and state what identifies your nation, what your morally and socially stand for, the epitome of being an American, is pedantic quibbling over a little mistake, wrapped up in slabs of unthinking patriotism, with just a sprinkle of "If you don't agree with me, then FUCK OFF!!!"

Here I was thinking it was about the equal creation of all men (people) and their rights inherit...

[darkeyes]

Really? You are happy to stand there and state what identifies your nation, what your morally and socially stand for, the epitome of being an American, is pedantic quibbling over a little mistake, wrapped up in slabs of unthinking patriotism, with just a sprinkle of "If you don't agree with me, then FUCK OFF!!!"

Here I was thinking it was about the equal creation of all men (people) and their rights inherit...thats wy me asked the question in me openin post moto..seem lots think like that...

[Skater Boy]

... evidently we have a culture difference here.

It's just that I've never come across the idea that flying a piece of cloth with a symbol on it higher than another piece of cloth with a different logo on it was a mortal sin...

Its not so much a CULTURE difference. More of an educational difference, the significance of which is more relevant to some people than others...

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_protocol

Quoted from another website:

"When it is displayed from the same flagpole with another flag - of a state, community, society or Scout unit - the flag of the United States must always be at the top except that the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for Navy personnel when conducted by a Naval chaplain on a ship at sea."

These are the "guidelines", and I guess that they exist, just like political correctness, for a reason.

However, it doesn't bother me much, to be honest. Unless you take the symbolism seriously it really doesn't matter. And I'm not that much of a patriot anyway.

[slocum5]

Second thoughts. Had we not bankrolled WW2, provided troops and materiel and fought side by side with the brave Brits and other nations, we would have lost Winston Churchill. The marvelous RAF would have been wiped out and the Nazis would have written the history of the war. There would have been no "Blue birds over the white Cliffs of Dover .........."

[vices2habits]

... There was a bumper sticker around during the Viet Nam war that said "America- Love It or Leave It" those words have never rang so true in my heart as they do when some thing like this comes up.
That statement was asinine then... and it is even more asinine now because all should know better from what that atrocious debacle in Viet Nam did to this country.

Sorry to break it to ya, dude, but mindless, blind comformity -- which is what that idiotic statement endorses -- is about as un-American as an idea gets.

It is the mindless lemmings -- or gutless sheeple, if you prefer -- who ought to be the first ones ushered out, if anyone at all.

True American patriots speak up when their country seems wrong to them at the time... even if it seems right to everyone else, and even if it may really be right. Having the guts to dissent and disagree is the mark of the true American patriot... not cowed, complacent, cowardly silence.

:2cents:

[Azrael]

"Love it or leave it".
Like it's that simple. Many people who dearly love this country have profound differences with the way the United States conducts itself. The flag is just a symbol. It's the people that matter, not the national idols.
I believe in the constitution. I think it's a great set of ideals.
The US government is structured the way it is to keep itself from becoming monopolized.
America was founded on the principle of holding those in power accountable.
I don't think flag burning is anything impressive as a means of protest, because it represents the governed. It's really at the end of the day little more than a Alice Cooper-ish shock tactic. The more attention you give it, the more powerful a gesture it becomes. I don't however, think it's that big a deal.
I do love it here, and I actually live it, so suck on that, you fucking armchair quarterbacks who know nothing about what it really means to be American. I also believe in giving the klan and groups like them the right to say what they will. It's the freedom of ALL Americans. Most people in the states talk a lot of shit about freedom, but simultaneously support gestapo strong arm tactics.
I don't think America is lost yet, but give it a few more years and lousy administrations, and who knows?

It's already happening. The state sanctioned media- Fox news, protest areas being called 'free speech zones', the religious right like the CC taking over schoolboards with 'stealth candidates', TIA (total information awareness)- freedom is seriously in peril.

This guy could have just taken the flag down quietly and respectfully, but had to be the ugly American. C'est la vie :rolleyes:

[jedinudist]

Excuse me? You think that only those who agree with you are so-called "real Americans?"

That misguided opinion is not American at all... it is fascist.

Fascists should be the first to get out... there is no place for fascists in America.

:2cents:

AMEN! It wasn't too long ago many Americans died defeating fascists. Now they demand our allegiance?

[jedinudist]

And as for "Love it or Leave it"? BULLSHIT! It's NOT loving your country that makes people stand up and correct the wrongs that they see. Why change what you love? Dissent is at the very heart of being AMERICAN! Dissent CREATED America. Dissent (not loving your country) has shaped and guided this great country throughout it's history.

Case in point? The Matthew Shepard Act! The repeal of discriminatory racial laws! Hate crime laws!

If you voted for or supported anything in your life that changed our ways here in the U.S., then according to your own fascist propaganda, you should have left the country!

If you DON'T love the United States- STAY HERE! In the words of a peaceful man - Be the change you wish to see.

[TaylorMade]

Its not so much a CULTURE difference. More of an educational difference, the significance of which is more relevant to some people than others...

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_protocol

Quoted from another website:

"When it is displayed from the same flagpole with another flag - of a state, community, society or Scout unit - the flag of the United States must always be at the top except that the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for Navy personnel when conducted by a Naval chaplain on a ship at sea."

These are the "guidelines", and I guess that they exist, just like political correctness, for a reason.

However, it doesn't bother me much, to be honest. Unless you take the symbolism seriously it really doesn't matter. And I'm not that much of a patriot anyway.

Thanks for putting it in Context, SB. I try to take the flag as seriously as possible because to be honest. . .there is a VERY good reason that I call myself the "All-American Bi Girl" in my profile... or at least I feel that way.
My parents came here as an act of choice- - for the opportunity and the ability to do something more than they could have back home. There are times when I do feel "love it or leave it" . . . depart and make room for relatives I (as well as others) have on waiting lists wanting to emigrate legally. I know that's not always feasible, but I just wanted to bring another side to that statement.

*Taylor*

[Skater Boy]

Thanks for putting it in Context, SB. I try to take the flag as seriously as possible because to be honest. . .there is a VERY good reason that I call myself the "All-American Bi Girl" in my profile... or at least I feel that way.
My parents came here as an act of choice- - for the opportunity and the ability to do something more than they could have back home. There are times when I do feel "love it or leave it" . . . depart and make room for relatives I (as well as others) have on waiting lists wanting to emigrate legally. I know that's not always feasible, but I just wanted to bring another side to that statement.

*Taylor*

Well, since my family (on both sides) consist of immigrants to England, I can kinda see your perspective. And I certainly do admit that we (as a family) owe a lot to this country. And that, in theory, that country is represented by the Union Jack (British flag). If someone were to disrespect the flag (such as burn it publicly), I guess THEN I WOULD be offended... although not nearly as much as if they had burned Buckingham Palace or the Houses Of Parliament (ignoring the issues of royalty and politics). But were someone just to place the flag slightly lower than that of another country, I probably wouldn't think much of it, unless it was on an official British building, and even then...

I guess its a symbolic thing... and as Fran says... I think the country itself is more important than a piece of multi-colored cloth. I'm more concerned with addressing the issue of those who attack our democratic societies and their landmarks, than those who may happen to fly their flags in the wrong order.

But, I can certainly appreciate that- for those who strongly adhere to the flag-flying protocol- it may have caused some offense.

:2cents:

[Not2str8]

Wow, there are some great posts here. I particularly enjoyed those of Vices2habits, and Azrael, both of whom seem to have a strong grasp of what it is that makes "an American." I forget who it was that said this, but I've always loved the quote. "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

[darkeyes]

I guess its a symbolic thing... and as Fran says... I think the country itself is more important than a piece of multi-colored cloth.


:2cents:

ya dus me a disservice Skater..wot me actually sed is flags aint important... peeps r.. actually a nun 2 subtle difference if ya think bout it.... kissie:tong:

[Skater Boy]

ya dus me a disservice Skater..wot me actually sed is flags aint important... peeps r.. actually a nun 2 subtle difference if ya think bout it.... kissie:tong:

Fran, I was playing The Editor, and revising your words to make them both reasonable and diplomatic. If you want, I can dig up some more of your old posts, and give them my own little twist... the Commie and anti-male ones could be interesting... ;)

[slocum5]

I leave the debate with questions. Was the Mexican flag hung by an illegal alien? If so, was it an innocent mistake? Or was it an intentional, "in your face" act by an "undocumented immigrant?" Was the flag hung by an American citizen of Hispanic descent with an attitude? Did the fellow who took down the flag approach the hanger of the flag and attempt to explain the procedural mistake in the hanging of the flag? Did the hanger of the flag then shoot him the bird? All of these questions may have been covered in the news report, which I unfortunately missed. However, since I don't know the answers to these questions, I can draw no conclusions. I assume that all of you who have so vehemently expressed your opinions are privy to this information.

Incidentally, I was a member of the ACLU until the leadership was co-opted by Multi-Culturalism and Political Correctness. You don't have to be a "one world socialist" to be bi. Bye the bye, does any one know the difference between a "liberal" and a "progressive?":)

[godowntogether]

In the U.S. our flag should always be flown highest and every other countries flag should be flown highest in it's own country.

[12voltman59]

This is from the VFW's website regarding the flying of the American and Flags of other nations together:

Can a foreign flag fly above the US flag?

KRNV News 4A situation arose in Reno, where a Mexican Flag was flown above the US flag on a single pole. This was a violation of the Flag Code and was apparently done to make a political statement.

Let's start by looking at the Flag Code. You will find there is a contradiction. First it says that all foreign flags should fly at the same height as the US flag. But later, it says that no foreign flag should fly at the same height as the US flag.

7g. reads, "When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace."

7c. starts, "No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America..."

7c. later on reads (emphasis ours), "No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof..."

Notwithstanding the confusion here, it is always recommended to fly foreign flags from separate poles, and that the flags should be flown at the same height and be of same or similar size

The above information, save the information they had regarding the situation we are discussing here, comes from the US Flag Code

As to the issue regarding whether the people who flew the flags like this did it intentionally--I have heard conflicting reports saying it was done deliberately and other reports that said it was not the case-that it was out of ignorance--at this point-this situation has gotten all caught up in the polarized politics of the day---so whatever the truth is or was at the time--- has been lost at this point----

[qchamp]

I would like to thank everyone that has replied to this. That goes for those that agree and disagree with me. Some may not understand where this all comes from. Three members of my family have been wounded in combat defending our way of life, our freedoms, and our Nation. What happened in Reno, was a slap in the face to them, and every American. There are rules to how you or anyone else displays a flag. Had this happened in Mexico City, I would belive that the same thing ( if not worse ) would have happened.

As for this being for you arana, if thats what you want to think, then what ever. This man did not call the news station, it was posted on craigslist.com, and was being discussed on a talk radio show before he went there.


Tim

[vices2habits]

And as for "Love it or Leave it"? BULLSHIT! It's NOT loving your country that makes people stand up and correct the wrongs that they see. Why change what you love? Dissent is at the very heart of being AMERICAN! Dissent CREATED America. Dissent (not loving your country) has shaped and guided this great country throughout it's history.

Case in point? The Matthew Shepard Act! The repeal of discriminatory racial laws! Hate crime laws!

If you voted for or supported anything in your life that changed our ways here in the U.S., then according to your own fascist propaganda, you should have left the country!

If you DON'T love the United States- STAY HERE! In the words of a peaceful man - Be the change you wish to see.
A return "AMEN!" Jedi...

Dissent is the very lifeblood of America... it was dissent that brought us, as a new nation, into being. "Love it or leave it" is the Redcoat theme song, which the American patriots would not sing in Boston.

But sometimes it truly is a love of country which makes you do what it takes to heal her when she is sick, too... as much as she may not like the taste of the medicine.

:2cents:

[vices2habits]

I would like to thank everyone that has replied to this. That goes for those that agree and disagree with me. Some may not understand where this all comes from. Three members of my family have been wounded in combat defending our way of life, our freedoms, and our Nation. What happened in Reno, was a slap in the face to them, and every American. There are rules to how you or anyone else displays a flag. Had this happened in Mexico City, I would belive that the same thing ( if not worse ) would have happened.

As for this being for you arana, if thats what you want to think, then what ever. This man did not call the news station, it was posted on craigslist.com, and was being discussed on a talk radio show before he went there.


Tim

Tim:

I can understand how emotional such issues can make one, particularly since it apparently cuts so close to home.

That being said, I can assure you that those who left the field of battle alive are no longer concerned, if they ever were, with such comparatively trivial things as flags hung inappropriately over an immigrant's grocery store. I'd make a well-informed bet that they are mulling that eternal/infernal riddle: why they survived while their buddy(s) did not.

Life and death matter. Flags, in comparison, do not matter nearly so much.

[qchamp]

flags do matter, it is for that flag and what it stands for is why my brothers were wounded, as well as way too many others. True that is is only a pieceof cloth, but it is a piece of cloth that I and sooo many others are ready to die for and stand up for.


Tim

[darkeyes]

Not reely Chump darlin'.. wot mattas is the hearts n minds of men an wimmen who every day struggle 2 get on wiv ther lives... whots in ther is wot mattas.. ur flag 2 u sure..but 2 mos peeps its jus gettin on wiv tryin 2 live..

[darkeyes]

Fran, I was playing The Editor, and revising your words to make them both reasonable and diplomatic. If you want, I can dig up some more of your old posts, and give them my own little twist... the Commie and anti-male ones could be interesting... ;)

Do not edit 2 say summat me didn mean hun.. dig up wotya like.. ur twist on ne thin me says is fine..but its ur twist..not mine..an don change one jot wot me tryin 2 say...

An 1 thing ya won find...is ne anti men posts..ya may find lots slaggin em off an that may b ur perception..but as such nowt me has eva sed is anti men per se..woteva ya think.

[Skater Boy]

Do not edit 2 say summat me didn mean hun.. dig up wotya like.. ur twist on ne thin me says is fine..but its ur twist..not mine..an don change one jot wot me tryin 2 say...

An 1 thing ya won find...is ne anti men posts..ya may find lots slaggin em off an that may b ur perception..but as such nowt me has eva sed is anti men per se..woteva ya think.

Oh Frances, I know you don't hate men really. You just want to castrate them all with your cleave and turn them into women. Its ok, I understand... :bigrin:

[dafydd]

Second thoughts. Had we not bankrolled WW2, provided troops and materiel and fought side by side with the brave Brits and other nations, we would have lost Winston Churchill. The marvelous RAF would have been wiped out and the Nazis would have written the history of the war. There would have been no "Blue birds over the white Cliffs of Dover .........."

oh please. you can't roll out that WW2 argument to validate your status. Tired.

d

[chulainn2]

Well said Q!!!

[Skater Boy]

flags do matter, it is for that flag and what it stands for is why my brothers were wounded, as well as way too many others. True that is is only a pieceof cloth, but it is a piece of cloth that I and sooo many others are ready to die for and stand up for.

If you must fight, fight for what the flag STANDS FOR, and not the piece of cloth itself. Fight for the 50 states, not the 50 stars. gone are the days when armies retreat when their Standard Bearer (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_bearer) falls. Its the ideologies BEHIND the flag that constitute America. The flag itself is just a visual manifestation of those ideologies, and has only as much significance as you afford to it.

[vices2habits]

flags do matter, it is for that flag and what it stands for is why my brothers were wounded, as well as way too many others. True that is is only a pieceof cloth, but it is a piece of cloth that I and sooo many others are ready to die for and stand up for.


Tim
Which is why politicians will always have fresh young meat to send into the grinder du jour.

I have not heard you say that you have worn the uniform of this country yourself. Many on here, myself included, have done so... and I do believe that most on here who have served will agree with my statement regarding the comparative value of life -vs- flag. No one who has worn the uniform for more than a day ever fights for the flag. Never. We are sworn and duty-bound to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States... not the flag.

You may say that the flag is a symbol of the Constitution. No, it is not. The Constitution needs no symbol, for it stands on its own and for itself... and I find it highly offensive that people like you will wrap yourself in the flag to justify the abrogation and defilement of that very Constitution that I dedicated most of my adult lifetime protecting and defending.

The guy who took down that flag for the news cameras -- while brandishing a knife and reportedly saying “I want to see someone fight me for this flag” -- was not just stupidly grand-standing while committing theft, he was trying to provoke a violent confrontation with another citizen who'd actually broken no laws at all [the flag protocol in Title 4 of the U.S. Code is advisory only, there is no criminal sanction for noncompliance; likewise for the Nevada Revised Statutes]. Is this angry fool also going to go cruising around Reno, hauling down every un-illuminated flag flying after sunset, too?

This angry veteran was the law-breaker here, and that's just plain fact. If the owner presses charges, he may in fact rightly be prosecuted not just for the theft, but also for pulling such an unnecessarily confrontational stunt while armed with a deadly weapon. He may be a veteran, but that was no laudable display of good order and discipline.

Misplaced patriotic emotionalism does not excuse criminal behavior.

:2cents:

[qchamp]

I have not worn the uniform of this country. I never said I did. I am a member of the Sons of the American Legion. That means that my father, grand father, step father has worn the uniform and served our country. Did I want to serve, yes I did. Health reasons kept me from serving. If I was asked to serve this very day, I would.


Tim

[godowntogether]

I would like to thank your family members for serving, there are not too many that think serving their country is important anymore. I was in the army and this country and flag are same to me.

[slocum5]

Vice2habits sounds like a "ring knocker" and if he does not understand that reference, his credubility is seriously in question.

[darkeyes]

If you must fight, fight for what the flag STANDS FOR, and not the piece of cloth itself. Fight for the 50 states, not the 50 stars. gone are the days when armies retreat when their Standard Bearer (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_bearer) falls. Its the ideologies BEHIND the flag that constitute America. The flag itself is just a visual manifestation of those ideologies, and has only as much significance as you afford to it.

If every american did that Skater, they wud b hard pushed 2 find ne 1 2 fite for the government of the day... an no bad thing that wud b eitha...

[vices2habits]

Vice2habits sounds like a "ring knocker" and if he does not understand that reference, his credubility is seriously in question.
Nope. All goat locker here.

Now are ya gonna get me that baffle sample or stay a NUB all yer goddam life? You wanna wear these fish someday, move yer ass! :)

[slocum5]

vice2habits

You are a good man. Congrats on your service.

[slocum5]

Humbly suggest that OCHAMP not be addresses as CHUMP by persons who have no dog in the fight.:tongue:

[orpheus_lost]

I am not a Real American!

I was born in Michigan. I was educated in the public school system. I was raised by a steel worker and stay at home mom. I was in the scouts. I marched in the Fourth of July parades. I grew up to pay my taxes. I vote in every election. I donate to my local charities. I spend Memorial Day honoring my relatives who have died in the field of battle.

But I am not a Real American because I don't believe exactly what you do. You have decided who is worthy to live here and I'm not one of them. I suppose it really is time I left this country for one that doesn't hate people like me as much as you and some others here have shown yourselves to do. But before I go I have one question. Can I take that scrap piece of paper that has all those rights and amendments on it with me? It's not like you're using it or anything.

Oh! I wouldn't mind having that preamble thing that comes before it if you don't mind. You know, the one that talks about We the People. You guys can write another if you want about worshiping a piece of cloth and how much more important it is than worthless human beings or silly ideas.

Enjoy your flag. I'll enjoy my freedom.

[TaylorMade]

If every american did that Skater, they wud b hard pushed 2 find ne 1 2 fite for the government of the day... an no bad thing that wud b eitha...

Ask every American first, then make your pronouncement.

*Taylor*

[vices2habits]

vice2habits

You are a good man. Congrats on your service.

Thanks, Slocum5... final promotion to PFC -- Proud Fuc*ing Citizen -- in '04.

So now those Canoe U. ring-knockers work for me and all the rest of us PFC's... gotta give 'em their props, though... they finally beat Notre Dame. After 43 consecutive losses. Go NAVY!

[darkeyes]

Ask every American first, then make your pronouncement.

*Taylor*

So ya reckon governments of the US these days dus go long wiv the ideolgy of ya constitution huh??? Knows quite a few mericans who live ere cos they don like jus wot ya governments do an how they pay lip service 2 the constitution.. cept wen its suits em of course...bit of a holy cow then innit? Rest of the time its jus do watya can to get away wiv wotya can..

S'ok Taylor..its way of the world...arseholes ere r no betta... handy for them 2 have ther nice luffly priciples an no written constitution 2 hold em bak from fukkin every 1 up an gettin way wiv wot the hell they like....

Bit hard 2 ask every merican tho... wud b bit old an grey by the time me got through 1st million..

[darkeyes]

O yea Taylor..almos forgot...jus needta read these forums 2 get an idea that not every merican is prepared 2 go down wiv the ship wen they don think the ship is on rite course!!!

[darkeyes]

Soz 2 seem 2 b makin a meal of this Taylor..but rya sayin "My Government, therefore my country..rite or wrong????"

[slocum5]

One is compelled to note that Tony Blair supported Bush and Gordon Brown seems, at least initially, to continue that support. Blair retired. Brown was chosen. Guess the average Brit is just as stupid as the average American. :)

[biwords]

I've never come across the idea that flying a piece of cloth with a symbol on it higher than another piece of cloth with a different logo on it was a mortal sin...

Darkeyes, too, says that a flag is just a rag on a pole. And I suppose that a photo is just ink on a piece of paper. So if (for example) Dick Cheney were to be seen ripping up a picture of Martin Luther King, liberals would have nothing to complain about, right? I mean, it's just paper, right?

[biwords]

Dissent is the very lifeblood of America... it was dissent that brought us, as a new nation, into being. "Love it or leave it" is the Redcoat theme song

Well, no actually; it was the Bluecoats who, not 'loving' the tie with the British Empire, wanted to 'leave it'...and the British said they couldn't.

As for dissent being the lifeblood of America, etc., doesn't it depend on the quality of the dissent? Those two notable dissenters of the 1960's, Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, preached "Revolution For the Hell of It" and "Kill Your Parents".

Also, liberals don't get misty-eyed about dissent when it's a case of Minutemen dissenting from the US government's open-borders/amnesty policies -- or of red-state Americans dissenting from Roe v. Wade.

[Skater Boy]

Darkeyes, too, says that a flag is just a rag on a pole. And I suppose that a photo is just ink on a piece of paper. So if (for example) Dick Cheney were to be seen ripping up a picture of Martin Luther King, liberals would have nothing to complain about, right? I mean, it's just paper, right?

If it was an act with innocent motives, I would have no problems with ANYONE ripping up a photo of ANYONE. And even if it WEREN'T innocent, it still wouldn't be that important in the grand scheme of things. Now if Cheney had urinated on Luther King's grave, THEN I might take offense.

[melissabloch]

no other flag may be flown above the us flag

federal law

[vittoria]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!

screw it. i'm filing for divorce.

nuff said.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes, too, says that a flag is just a rag on a pole. And I suppose that a photo is just ink on a piece of paper. So if (for example) Dick Cheney were to be seen ripping up a picture of Martin Luther King, liberals would have nothing to complain about, right? I mean, it's just paper, right?
Thats the ticket, Wordsie.. ya hit the nail on the head!!

[darkeyes]

no other flag may be flown above the us flag

federal law

An that counts ere like???

[darkeyes]

One is compelled to note that Tony Blair supported Bush and Gordon Brown seems, at least initially, to continue that support. Blair retired. Brown was chosen. Guess the average Brit is just as stupid as the average American. :)

No more..no less babes... we hav our share of arseholes jus like u lot...

[chook]

Well I can honestly say that in Australia we don't make such a big song and dance about our flag I know if most Aussies had their way they would get rid of that hideous Union Jack that's stuck in the right hand corner, but other than that its no big deal and I reckon if you want to fly multiple flags buy more flagpoles........shit easy.


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Chookie...don blame ya re that hideous ghastly 'orrible rag called the Union Flag (Jack only wen flown on ships).. quite happy 2 see it burnt by all n sundry..cos it mus b the worst rag eva devised as a symbol for ne nation..its an offence 2 me sense of taste if nuthin else... mind u..sorry me luffly merican m8s..urs aint ne betta...notha ghastly lookin ole thing...

[biwords]

Chookie...don blame ya re that hideous ghastly 'orrible rag called the Union Flag (Jack only wen flown on ships).. quite happy 2 see it burnt by all n sundry..cos it mus b the worst rag eva devised as a symbol for ne nation..its an offence 2 me sense of taste if nuthin else... mind u..sorry me luffly merican m8s..urs aint ne betta...notha ghastly lookin ole thing...

Perhaps Madame would prefer something in a floral motif?

[vices2habits]

no other flag may be flown above the us flag

federal law

Title 4, United States Code is advisory. There is no criminal sanction for non-compliance.... and the operative word in the controlling phrase is "should," not "shall."

:cool:

[darkeyes]

Perhaps Madame would prefer something in a floral motif?

Ifya gorra hav flags babes..summat wich don burn me eyes out wen me looks at em... an wudn b the 1st time floral motifs been stuck on a bloody rag on a pole....

[vices2habits]

Well, no actually; it was the Bluecoats who, not 'loving' the tie with the British Empire, wanted to 'leave it'...and the British said they couldn't.
Word games. The referent object of "leave" is country, not "tie." The Redcoats were here to exercise the military variation of the eviction proceeding... the colonies were part of Britain, and the upstarts would either be forcibly dragged out (and sent back to Britain for trial) or killed for not "loving" (obeying) British tyranny.


As for dissent being the lifeblood of America, etc., doesn't it depend on the quality of the dissent?
Let's see now... The First Amendment says:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nope... nothing in there about any prejudgment vis-a-vis any notion of "quality" (also known as "prior restraint"). How free would any freedom actually be if there were?


Those two notable dissenters of the 1960's, Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, preached "Revolution For the Hell of It" and "Kill Your Parents".
Invalid "straw man" argument... logically fallacious and misleading. But thanks for playing.



Also, liberals don't get misty-eyed about dissent when it's a case of Minutemen dissenting from the US government's open-borders/amnesty policies -- or of red-state Americans dissenting from Roe v. Wade.
Lawful dissent is one thing... but vigilante thugs engaged in campaigns of harassment, intimidation, and assault is not lawful dissent.

Campaigns of harassment, intimidation, stalking, assault and even the assassination of doctors in order to impose one particular -- and particularly idiotic -- theological viewpoint, contrary to both American law and custom, is not lawful dissent.

You want to dissent lawfully and play by the rules? Then liberals -- and only liberals -- will back your right to do so.. Conservatives, however, seem always to be the ones coming up with some cockamamie censorship justification like "quality of the dissent," or "only in that out-of-the-way, out-of-sight-and-earshot caged 'free speech zone.' "

It was the liberal ACLU -- many of them Jewish -- that backed the American Nazi Party's right to march through the largely Jewish town of Skokie, Illinois in the late 1970's. In fact, it is almost always liberals, to the point of near universality, who do the protecting of rights against conservatives trying to abrogate, curtail, constrict, or eliminate rights.

Problem is, conservatives don't want to dissent lawfully and play by the rules. Conservatives can't win by playing -- dissenting or operating -- within the rules, or within the law. With the numbers clearly stacked against them on a whole host of issues, conservatives have to tilt the playing field and skew the rules... even make up their own (torture isn't torture unless we say it is) as they go along. Conservatives have to shoot the catcher in order to be called "safe" at home plate, and conservatives casually write that off as just a cost of doing business.

:cool:

[opentoideas1964]

I don't think GCHAMP'S concerns are misplaced or misguided.

If this country is such a terrible place, why are so many trying to get in?

The great beauty of the American culture is its diversity. It will happily and willingly embrace you as it has embraced the millions who came before you.

That said, it is our culture and we are proud of it. If you don't care to embrace it, return to the dung heap you came from.

How funny.3.5% of the global population using 33.3% of the earths resources and creating most of the waste..... The rest of the world cannot possibly come to our level of resource usage. Thats why they come here.

[TaylorMade]

Ifya gorra hav flags babes..summat wich don burn me eyes out wen me looks at em... an wudn b the 1st time floral motifs been stuck on a bloody rag on a pole....

That's nice. That, and $1.50 will get you Cuban Coffee, fuck you very much.

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

How funny.3.5% of the global population using 33.3% of the earths resources and creating most of the waste..... The rest of the world cannot possibly come to our level of resource usage. Thats why they come here.

China uses a hell of alot more energy than we ever could-wasting and polluting fit to beat the band as well -no one's in a hurry to go there.

*Taylor*

[FalconAngel]

On the whole flag issue. The guy that cut down the mexican flag was only forcing compliance with federal law. The US Flag is supposed to be the highest flag flying, anywhere that flags are flown in this country. That is basic civics class.

There are exceptions, but they are limited to foreign embassies, which are considered foreign soil, and the UN, where all flags fly at the same level except for the UN flag which flies highest.

I served this country as have members of my family going back to the War of Independence. Too many people have bled and died protecting that flag and the nation that it represents to allow a bunch of illegals desecrate it.
If they love mexico so much, then they are welcome to go back. After all, this isn't the Soviet Union. We won't keep someone here who doesn't like it here. They are free to leave -- See ya. Don't let Customs hit your ass on the way out.

Sure, we have problems, but at least we aren't running off and illegally entering our neighbors countries, taking their jobs and expecting them to change to suit us. Maybe if we did that to mexico, they would get the hint; oh, wait a minute......mexico wouldn't allow us in their country illegally. they would boot us back out faster than you can say green card. Maybe the mexicans don't have it so bad after all here. They're just pissed that we don't want to turn this country into a 3rd world country like it is where they came from.

If you came here illegally, then you have nothing to complain about. You have no right to complain since you are committing a crime by being here without the correct immigration papers.
I do believe that every person who LEGALLY enters this country should be given every chance that any other citizen has, but if you didn't care to do it legally, then we don't need you here.

Many people say that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do, but who do you think was doing those jobs BEFORE the illegals came in? Americans; That's who.

There is not a single argument in defense of illegal immigration that will survive close scrutiny.

[darkeyes]

That's nice. That, and $1.50 will get you Cuban Coffee, fuck you very much.

*Taylor*

Didn know ya cared so much Taylor babes....

An 70p for cuban coffee?? Me wishes....

[PolyLoveTriad]

Well isnt this a touchy subject? As for me, I think its ok to be proud of where you came from if you want. If youre mexican, I have mexicans in my family, and you want to have pride in your heritage then fine. But I think when you come to this country seeking out a life that is better than what you have because where you came from really sucked, you should have respect for the country youre in. Yes, it irritates me that people come from mexico seeking shelter and then wave their flag as if their country was that great. My own family members included in this and they know how I feel about that. I guess it just doesnt make any sense to me at all, to run from mexico to what you consider to be the best country to wave something that stands for what you ran away from in the first place. *shrug* I dont feel what the guy did was right, but I can understand his anger in what he saw.

This country is the melting pot of the world. We have people from everywhere living in it. I think we all need to be more tolerant, but I also think the ones who werent born here need to respect where they live. AND learn the language of where they live.

Dont bash me, its only an opinion!

[darkeyes]

Wudn dreama bashin ya hun..my point is an always has been that flags don matta...burn em tear em down abolish em do wotya like..peeps matta... an far 2 many peeps r killed, maimed humiliated an disinherited all in the name if a stupid flag... we get all so worked up bout protocol of how flags shud b respected an how they shud b flown, how they r symbols of wot nations stand for, the rites an dignities of people get trodden on, extinguished an cos we r brot up 2 respect it an luff it an adore it, an 2 die for it.. we forget that flags r not important...nations r not important, governments r not important.. people r.. an ther rite 2 live in freedom an peace, to prosperity an equality, wiv full bellies, gud health an education an a decent life.. nations an governments shud b facilitators for these things...all 2 often they r facilitators for flag worship at the expense of doin the job they r sposed 2... all 2 often they r over fonda stirrin up strife an death an greed at the expense of sum otha poor bugga who lives thousands miles away...

Havya flags if must.. but don forget the truly important things.. flags aint 1of em...

[CuddlyKate]

Frances darling, far be it for me to quibble, but what was that thing you had painted on your face when we were in Paris in September? Oh. And yes, the dark blue with the white cross tied around your neck and draped over your shoulders? It all looked very fetching, but wasnt one a representation of, and the other an actual, how can I put it - flag?:tong: And while we are at it, isnt the badge on your shirt a Lion Rampant, a representation of, Im sorry to say this - a flag? And worse, my lovely little republican troublemaker, the Royal Standard of the Scottish monarchy.

I suppose since it was football, thats different.:) Im sorry sweeheart, I couldnt resist.

[CuddlyKate]

HaHaHa! I just noticed TaylorMade's post, Frances. Its nice to know someone is oblivious to your charms, my little Vanity Fair. :)

[ambi53mm]

"Imagine all the people...sharing all the world."....John Lennon.

How far we have come.. and yet.. how little we have learned :(

Ambi

[darkeyes]

Frances darling, far be it for me to quibble, but what was that thing you had painted on your face when we were in Paris in September? Oh. And yes, the dark blue with the white cross tied around your neck and draped over your shoulders? It all looked very fetching, but wasnt one a representation of, and the other an actual, how can I put it - flag?:tong: And while we are at it, isnt the badge on your shirt a Lion Rampant, a representation of, Im sorry to say this - a flag? And worse, my lovely little republican troublemaker, the Royal Standard of the Scottish monarchy.

I suppose since it was football, thats different.:) Im sorry sweeheart, I couldnt resist.Ho de ho de ho!! Lil smart arse!!! In me pitiful defence all me can say is this... me looked cute... whose colours wer they??? ya expect me 2 go naked??? wer dus me cum from an who wos me supportin??? dus hav reel probs ova the SFA shirt badge but cant do owt bout it... an its looks cool... an ya knows well as me me wudn give 2 hoots if me saw ne 1 burnin the bloody things (tho preferably not wile me wos in em).. mayb the fitba' shirt...like me lil shirt... an the new burgundy away shirt..God orgasmic... ya hasta get me 1 for the Italy game!!!!!:bigrin:

An bout Taylor... all me can say 2 that is... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!! sniff.... me not luffed!!!!:(

[Bluebiyou]

Do we have pictures of the beautiful Darkeyes in her 'flag motif'?

Yes it was very improper to fly one countries flag above the "home country's"; this would indicate war or occupation. Yes, the guy was right to wait for media to show up to publicly affirm this is usa. Yes, it's all symbolism. Yes, it would be nice if everyone in the world was so much more caring of their fellow man that we regarded flags as unimportant compared to injury of a single man. Yes, we will always have greedy, power hungry, angry men in the world to do violence as we are savage animals by default, peaceful men by education/learning, feeling, and choice. Yes, we still desperately need ideological hopefuls like Darkeyes. Yes, I desperately want to see Darkeyes yummy tummy (oops, Freudian slip ;) ).

[biwords]

How funny.3.5% of the global population using 33.3% of the earths resources and creating most of the waste.

Gosh, you mean that the US uses up all those resources and produces nothing but waste? No goods and services at all?

[biwords]

Re Vices2 habits post above:

1. I took you to be saying that the American revolutionaries rejected the principle of "love it or leave it". In fact they endorsed it; no longer 'loving' Great Britain's rule, they 'left' it.

2. The First Amendment is irrelevant, since I wasn't saying that any dissent (even the lowgrade variety of Jerry Rubin's) should be outlawed. You said that dissent was the lifeblood of America (surely an overstatement, but we'll let that pass); I said, well, some dissent doesn't deserve to be included in that degree of praise. What's the problem?

3. Hoffman and Rubin: it's hardly 'logically fallacious' to give an example in support of one's statement. It would have been logically fallacious if I'd suggested that all or most dissent was like theirs; but I didn't.

4. You have equated 'dissent from Roe v. Wade' with shooting abortion doctors. I believe you used the term 'straw man'? But thanks for playing.

5. You say that liberals defend free speech while conservatives support censorship. But it's liberals who are always demanding that people who make non-PC statements be fired from their jobs. (See: Lawrence Summers, Dr. James Watson, et al). No, liberals stick up for free speech most vocally when it's pornographic, anti-American or anti-religious. They certainly don't come to Jared Taylor's defense. (You invoke the Skokie incident -- having to reach back 30 years to do so). Liberals notoriously try to discourage free speech they don't like by labelling the speaker racist, sexist or homophobic, terms they use, well, liberally.

6. "to abrogate, curtail, constrict, or eliminate". I think you missed the plain-language drafting course in law school. :)

[country60]

If anyone is interested in veiwing the video to see what really went on just go to: www.filecabi.net then search the site for mexico vs american flag.
In my last post I was just a little upset and I am not sure that I said what I really believe. I am an American first and I love my country, but fear my government. I do not expect that anyone from another country would understand or agree with me about my country, but I would think they would feel something simular for theirs. There is definte proptocol that goes with fling a flag, in this country at least, and it is the symbol of this country. As I have said, I love my country, but, I fear my government.

As my Father always sayswhen it comes to election time, IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH!! This works for me!

Also please remember, those of you in the UK and such, if we Americans had not come to your aid during WW2, you might all speak German now. :)

[country60]

Tim:

I can understand how emotional such issues can make one, particularly since it apparently cuts so close to home.

That being said, I can assure you that those who left the field of battle alive are no longer concerned, if they ever were, with such comparatively trivial things as flags hung inappropriately over an immigrant's grocery store. I'd make a well-informed bet that they are mulling that eternal/infernal riddle: why they survived while their buddy(s) did not.

Life and death matter. Flags, in comparison, do not matter nearly so much.

I beg to differ with you on that! My father is a WW2 vetern who flys a flag at home with Pride knowing what it was he fought for and why it was his comrades died. He has told me just that and will defend that flag to the death still today at the age of 88.

Let's all keep these things in context, everything I have said is MY opion.

[vices2habits]

Re Vices2 habits post above:

1. I took you to be saying that the American revolutionaries rejected the principle of "love it or leave it". In fact they endorsed it; no longer 'loving' Great Britain's rule, they 'left' it.

The bumper-sticker saying "America... Love It or Leave it." may mean something different to your understanding, but I do believe that the most common, widely accepted interpretation is something along the lines of the idea that critics of American policy should shut up (perhaps even be shut up) or get out of the country. Criticism/dissent = Not loving America. Not a very 'American' sentiment, IMHO.

I take your construal of the statement (re the British vs colonial revolutionaries) to be twisting that common understanding in order to make it say something which it doesn't.

You say that the colonial revolutionaries endorsed the principle expressed in "America... Love It or Leave it." ... but surely you would agree, I hope, that those revolutionaries would not have endorsed the idea that critics of British policy in the colonies (Stamp Act, etc.) should shut up (be silenced), or get out of the colonies? Certainly that was the Tory (the conservatives of the day) position, and not that of the colonial revolutionaries... and had that Tory viewpoint prevailed then, the United States would most certainly not have come into being.

But let's set the bumper sticker aside, and get at the issue itself: Is it your view that critics and dissenters against American governmental policy be intimidated into silence or, failing that, be forced out of the country?


2. The First Amendment is irrelevant, since I wasn't saying that any dissent (even the lowgrade variety of Jerry Rubin's) should be outlawed.
What you suggested was that a "quality of dissent" criteria be used. That suggests a prior restraint on speech, and as such directly implicates the First Amendment.


You said that dissent was the lifeblood of America (surely an overstatement, but we'll let that pass); I said, well, some dissent doesn't deserve to be included in that degree of praise. What's the problem?
Praise is not the issue; protection vs. sanction -- formal or informal -- is.

Informal sanction of unpopular views via community intimidation of unpopular speakers can often effectively accomplish what the law forbids. But what people often lose sight of is that fact that it is not popular speech which requires protection... after all, the majority does not want to silence those that it agrees with.


3. Hoffman and Rubin: it's hardly 'logically fallacious' to give an example in support of one's statement. It would have been logically fallacious if I'd suggested that all or most dissent was like theirs; but I didn't.

A "straw man argument" creates a position, often deliberately overstated, that is easy to refute and then attributes that position to the opponent. Your words: "notable dissenters... preached "Revolution For the Hell of It" and "Kill Your Parents."

Argument: Exemplar Dissenters = Recreational Revolutionaries and Matricide/Patricide Advocates.

Come on... that's a classic straw man.


4. You have equated 'dissent from Roe v. Wade' with shooting abortion doctors. I believe you used the term 'straw man'? But thanks for playing.
You said that liberals "don't get misty-eyed " -- meaning show no sympathy for or support of -- dissent vis-a-vis anti-abortion advocates.

I made no such equation ('dissent from Roe v. Wade' = shooting abortion doctors). I clearly stated the opposite, in that I first set aside all lawful dissent as acceptable. I did not use doctor-shooters as the exemplar of Roe dissenters (as you did with Hoffman and Rubin as exemplars of dissent in general), but rather as the most extreme along a spectrum of unacceptable exceptions... extremist exceptions which no law-abiding citizen should get "misty-eyed" over.


5. You say that liberals defend free speech while conservatives support censorship. But it's liberals who are always demanding that people who make non-PC statements be fired from their jobs. (See: Lawrence Summers, Dr. James Watson, et al).
You're defending Summers and Watson? That's illuminating.



No, liberals stick up for free speech most vocally when it's pornographic, anti-American or anti-religious.
You forgot anti-homophobic... not to mention anti-misogynist, anti-racist, and anti-fascist.

Pornography has been ruled by the Supreme Court as constitutionally-protected free expression. All which is legally protected ought to be defended. Obscenity is prohibited and not defended.

Anti-American? There you go again with that "mindless conformity is good" thing. But aren't you pretty schizophrenically selective about that?


They certainly don't come to Jared Taylor's defense. Defend the views of a self-described "racialist" and White separatist? No. But defend his right to express his views, however noxious... of course. And it was the liberal Jon Goldberg, director of the Atlantic Jewish Council that came to Taylor's defense during the incident in Halifax.


(You invoke the Skokie incident -- having to reach back 30 years to do so).
At least 30 years ago is recent history... at least there are witnesses still living... at least the incident was recorded contemporaneously... and there are no claims of magic involved.

Do you mean to suggest that such a demonstration of committment to ethical & moral principle (not to mention courage) as was demonstrated in Skokie ceases to be a model of behavior and an example to follow once it reaches the age of 30?

There are many, many such cases to cite. That just happens to be one of the more notable ones.


Liberals notoriously try to discourage free speech they don't like by labelling the speaker racist, sexist or homophobic, terms they use, well, liberally.

Liberals do not discourage speakers of noxious views... liberals try to eliminate the divisive and corrosive ignorance which promulgate such noxious views.


6. "to abrogate, curtail, constrict, or eliminate". I think you missed the plain-language drafting course in law school. :)
The words are not synonyms. Each of those words has different application, and is necessary to make the group convey the totality of the idea expressed.

:cool:

[vittoria]

"Imagine all the people...sharing all the world."....John Lennon.

How far we have come.. and yet.. how little we have learned :(

Ambi

AMEN!!

nuff said.

[FalconAngel]

What many folks, both in and out of this country, do not understand is that there are things that are not protected under the Constitution or the Bill of Rights;

1) Freedom of speech means that you can say what you want, EXCEPT for things that are intended to promote violence, things that could cause harm to others (like yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater) and things of that nature. You can say what you want otherwise.

2) There is nothing wrong with respecting one's heritage. Most people in this country have heritage that is from at least 2 or 3 other nations. Mine is from at least 10. What you cannot be is a citizen of this country and a citizen of another as well. One cannot serve two masters as it were.
There are exceptions and they are rare, but I can guarantee that those people will never be in positions requiring a high security clearance without renouncing their other citizenship status first.

3) We have a total freedom of religion. To the more right wing Christians that seems to mean that they are free to force their religion on others. It doesn't. It means that we are all free to follow the faith that suits us and as long as we do not impose our religious beliefs upon others, we are free to practice our faith. That's why I have difficulty with "faith-based" initiatives being made into law. Whether I agree with it or not.

4) Separation of church and state. It does not mean that the state must be devoid of religion. It does mean that the state is not allowed to support any single religion or religious belief.
Those who remember the bruhaha over the 10 commandments being displayed in the courthouse a few years ago, understand what I am saying. That was one person deciding that his religion was the one that should be displayed and no others were allowed in.


We have our freedoms because of people who were willing to give their all to protect that flag and the nation it represents.

And yes, a flag is just a piece of cloth, but that "piece of cloth" gives us an image that we can put to our nation. It is a very diverse nation and there isn't any one thing that one can display which people can point to and say "that represents America", except the flag. That is why we have flags to identify us as nations.

[biwords]

Re: vices2 habit's last post:

A further point-by-point response would be fruitless, since some of what you've written basically just reiterates what you wrote earlier and we're not going to agree. So I'll confine myself to a few observations:

In what way is my support for Summers and Watson "illuminating"? That sounds rather like an innuendo.

You ask: "Is it your view that critics and dissenters against American governmental policy be intimidated into silence or, failing that, be forced out of the country?" Of course not. I've said nothing to indicate any such belief. Can we put that one to rest, please?

At the same time, I am not allergic to the term "un-American" despite the rather silly use that HUAC made of it. For example, an Islamic radical who wished to abolish the Constitution and laws of America and replace them with sharia, could correctly be described as 'un-American'. If you disagree, you're pretty much taking the view that the noun "American" means nothing more than "holder of a U.S. passport". Any number of dissenters have, of course, been good Americans: Thoreau, Eugene Debs, etc. (I admit to strong reservations about Chomsky, though :) )

I am glad to hear that Jon Goldberg defended Taylor's right to speak in Halifax. However, the people who first offered Taylor an invitation to speak and then withdrew it were also liberals -- which contradicts your statement that "Liberals do not discourage speakers of noxious views". Whether most liberals are more like Goldberg or more like the Dalhousie U administration is something I don't know, and you don't either. So I'll amend my statement to read: "While some liberals maintain their historic commitment to freedom of expression, others have been quick to censor or intimidate dissenters from the liberal creed, such as Summers, Watson and Taylor".

I suspect that at some level we're enjoying the debate, so I'll take the opportunity to apologize for the sharpness of a few of my previous remarks. Politically we're on different planets, but you seem like a good sort.

Paul

[qchamp]

Let me say, that when I say LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT. I mean you love the Counrty, you dont have to like the morons running it. Do I support the President, yes I do, because he is MY president. I didnt like Bill Clinton, but I supported him too. Didnt care much for daddy Bush either, supported him too. So if it is politics that you think has brough this on, it isnt.

What I am saying is, that if you want to fly your countries flag,follow the rules. There are alot of different places you can get information.

Back in the mid 80's we had someone fly the United States Flag, upside down. Now alot of you probably have no idea what the meaning is. Well, the police chief called the National Guard, he got all available officers in to place.

What that means is " Distress " that flag was being flown over CITY HALL! Alot of people thought that it had been taken over. That was a way of getting the message out. So for someone to say that a flag is a rag on a pole just doesnt understand.

This is a very passionate topic for alot of people. I for one, will defend OUR flag to the death, because I know what it stands for.

Maybe if the citizens of The United States, would work together, insted of the ME ME ME ME attitude, the rest of the world would understand how GREAT this country is.

Heres another interesting topic about the flag.

During a military funeral, the honor guard folds the flag over the coffin. While folding the flag, they recite what each fold represents. Can you belive that someone was offended by the 11th fold. That is where the first reference of GOD is. It goes on to talk about the Jewish faith as well.
Now, someone has sued to get them to stop doing that. Whatever religion you are, this should offend you to no end. Weather you call your higher power, God, Jehova, Alla, or anything else. Is this not just stupid.

I want to thank everyone that has replied to this. Even though I may not agree with what you say. It is exactly what our flag stands for. FREEDOM, to have your own opinion.

Remember though, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!


Tim

[darkeyes]

Me c's chump...so me don undastand huh? Me don undastand that peeps can get so het up an adore a flag, respect it an revere it almost as if it wos the a God in itself. That peeps lose the reason an common sense an do untold damage cos of a flag? That death an destruction has been reigned down on untold millions, an millions more displaced, an in colonial days ther own countries conquered an ensalved, all because of blind loyalty an the feelin of superiority wich cums from treatin a flag as more than it is.. a rag on a bloody pole. A rag wich our betters an superiors, our political masters can stir us up inta such a frenzy that peeps will do almost ne thin in its name..an do..

As it happens me not stupid..an dus know wot flyin a flag upside down means.. personally..me reckons the flags of every nation shud b flyin upise down..cos ther is no nation wich aint in distress..or more accurately..the peeps of ne nation....even if wiv sum..how can ya tell??? (soz..lil flippancy crept in).

Me undastands ok chump hun.. live sumwer wer the flag (or worse flags) is summat of a contentious issue.. Union Flag v Saltire, an hav seen peeps get emselves all worked up inta frenzy bout em.. my country is in a rite state of flux, an strugglin 2 cum 2 terms wiv itself. Even down south ya jus havta look at the odious flag wavin of right wing extreme groups an the increased resentment from many (not all) English peeps to the changed status of Scotland, an the way the St George Flag is thrust in our faces. These flags r bein used by multifarious groups to rip apart the heart an soul of the UK an preach messages of hatred contempt an disunity. In the case of the Union Flag as a symbol of the animosity toward the European ideal an 2 tell immigrants that they aint welcome. The flag of St george 2 sum extent also but more 2 display in feelin of superiority that many English peeps feel toward the smaller less populous nations of the UK, an the world at large. In Scotland, the Saltire (the flag of St Andrew)is bein used as a tool to try an divorce my country from the rest of the UK, an as a symbol of the resentment that many Scots harbour for centuries (as they c it) of misrule an oppression an contempt by a Westminster based Government, wich on occasion expresses itself in a rite nasty way.

No hun..me undastands ok the purpose of flags, an the uses 2 wich they r put, by governments an independent organistations... an nun of it is for the benefit of the peeps that matta..us...


Ther r no GREAT nations in this world..only powerful 1's. A great nation if ther b such a thing is 1 wich dus nuthin simply on its own behalf, an lives in peace an harmony with all otha nations, helpin them 2 becum as great as it is. Great Britain was neva great (the great not meanin wot mos think it means but as a geographical description to denote that the crowns of Scotland and England were united in 1603.. it wos a bit of pretentiousness by James VI or I takeya pik).. no nation wich enslaved raped an pillaged the world as it did cud eva b called great. Sure it did much gud in the world, an did many great things, or at least its peeps did... but it also had such an insidious influence on humanity that it cud neva be considered gr8.. An it used loyalty to flag in jus the same way to help it get its way..

Ideas matta..not symbols.. certainly not flags as symbols.. wots in the heart of men an women, in all of us, wot we do an say, how we act an interact wiv each otha. Flags create strife, cos thats jus wot they wer intended for, an 2 keep us in line by appealin 2 the basest of patriotism.. an me for 1, luff me own country as much as me dus.. luffs this world, an everythin gud innit much much more..

[vittoria]

I am not a Real American!

I was born in Michigan. I was educated in the public school system. I was raised by a steel worker and stay at home mom. I was in the scouts. I marched in the Fourth of July parades. I grew up to pay my taxes. I vote in every election. I donate to my local charities. I spend Memorial Day honoring my relatives who have died in the field of battle.

But I am not a Real American because I don't believe exactly what you do. You have decided who is worthy to live here and I'm not one of them. I suppose it really is time I left this country for one that doesn't hate people like me as much as you and some others here have shown yourselves to do. But before I go I have one question. Can I take that scrap piece of paper that has all those rights and amendments on it with me? It's not like you're using it or anything.

Oh! I wouldn't mind having that preamble thing that comes before it if you don't mind. You know, the one that talks about We the People. You guys can write another if you want about worshiping a piece of cloth and how much more important it is than worthless human beings or silly ideas.

Enjoy your flag. I'll enjoy my freedom.


preach! preach!

V for Vendetta anyone?

:)

[vittoria]

Me c's chump...so me don undastand huh? Me don undastand that peeps can get so het up an adore a flag, respect it an revere it almost as if it wos the a God in itself. That peeps lose the reason an common sense an do untold damage cos of a flag? That death an destruction has been reigned down on untold millions, an millions more displaced, an in colonial days ther own countries conquered an ensalved, all because of blind loyalty an the feelin of superiority wich cums from treatin a flag as more than it is.. a rag on a bloody pole. A rag wich our betters an superiors, our political masters can stir us up inta such a frenzy that peeps will do almost ne thin in its name..an do..

As it happens me not stupid..an dus know wot flyin a flag upside down means.. personally..me reckons the flags of every nation shud b flyin upise down..cos ther is no nation wich aint in distress..or more accurately..the peeps of ne nation....even if wiv sum..how can ya tell??? (soz..lil flippancy crept in).

Me undastands ok chump hun.. live sumwer wer the flag (or worse flags) is summat of a contentious issue.. Union Flag v Saltire, an hav seen peeps get emselves all worked up inta frenzy bout em.. my country is in a rite state of flux, an strugglin 2 cum 2 terms wiv itself. Even down south ya jus havta look at the odious flag wavin of right wing extreme groups an the increased resentment from many (not all) English peeps to the changed status of Scotland, an the way the St George Flag is thrust in our faces. These flags r bein used by multifarious groups to rip apart the heart an soul of the UK an preach messages of hatred contempt an disunity. In the case of the Union Flag as a symbol of the animosity toward the European ideal an 2 tell immigrants that they aint welcome. The flag of St george 2 sum extent also but more 2 display in feelin of superiority that many English peeps feel toward the smaller less populous nations of the UK, an the world at large. In Scotland, the Saltire (the flag of St Andrew)is bein used as a tool to try an divorce my country from the rest of the UK, an as a symbol of the resentment that many Scots harbour for centuries (as they c it) of misrule an oppression an contempt by a Westminster based Government, wich on occasion expresses itself in a rite nasty way.

No hun..me undastands ok the purpose of flags, an the uses 2 wich they r put, by governments an independent organistations... an nun of it is for the benefit of the peeps that matta..us...


Ther r no GREAT nations in this world..only powerful 1's. A great nation if ther b such a thing is 1 wich dus nuthin simply on its own behalf, an lives in peace an harmony with all otha nations, helpin them 2 becum as great as it is. Great Britain was neva great (the great not meanin wot mos think it means but as a geographical description to denote that the crowns of Scotland and England were united in 1603.. it wos a bit of pretentiousness by James VI or I takeya pik).. no nation wich enslaved raped an pillaged the world as it did cud eva b called great. Sure it did much gud in the world, an did many great things, or at least its peeps did... but it also had such an insidious influence on humanity that it cud neva be considered gr8.. An it used loyalty to flag in jus the same way to help it get its way..

Ideas matta..not symbols.. certainly not flags as symbols.. wots in the heart of men an women, in all of us, wot we do an say, how we act an interact wiv each otha. Flags create strife, cos thats jus wot they wer intended for, an 2 keep us in line by appealin 2 the basest of patriotism.. an me for 1, luff me own country as much as me dus.. luffs this world, an everythin gud innit much much more..

not to wax Biblical... but it makes me think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego... look it up in the Google.

[country60]

Ok, So, as has been said already, I don't think anyone expects someone from another country to understand how we feel about our flag and what it means, Hell we can't even decide what it means amoung ourselves. Let's just safice it to say that this event was deplorable to some (and made their blood boil) while to others it was just another in a long line of events in this country.

I am one whose blood boils knowing what my own family has done to give us all the freedom to have this debate. It is more than just "a rag on a pole" to me, if that is not how you see your flag, where ever you are from, than so be it. We can just agree to disagree.

My own heritage is from Eroupe but my life is in America, and that I will defend.

[darkeyes]

not to wax Biblical... but it makes me think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego... look it up in the Google.

anyas not so far off mark V me darlin'!

[darkeyes]

Ok, So, as has been said already, I don't think anyone expects someone from another country to understand how we feel about our flag and what it means, Hell we can't even decide what it means amoung ourselves. Let's just safice it to say that this event was deplorable to some (and made their blood boil) while to others it was just another in a long line of events in this country.

I am one whose blood boils knowing what my own family has done to give us all the freedom to have this debate. It is more than just "a rag on a pole" to me, if that is not how you see your flag, where ever you are from, than so be it. We can just agree to disagree.

My own heritage is from Eroupe but my life is in America, and that I will defend.Me is glad of the freedoms me has..glad u hav urs 2 hun. Far as they go. Pity more in the world cant eitha..an ther more liberties we shud b havin even yet..in fact cosa bloody flags in part at least we losin liberties at a rate of knots.. but thats anotha matta. But relevant cos we lettin em.

Flag wavers an flag luffers r all very well.. but mostly they r bein manipulated by the establishment of their lil plot of nationhood.. manipulated 2 more or less do as they r bid by those insidious powers that b. Wen we hav wars they aint ova Ali Bin whoeva an Fran Elliot fallin out, Or Country 60 havin a tiff wiv Schumi ova in Greece an each allyin wiv sum otha sod 2 cum out top..they r us dyin in our millions cosa the greed an selfishness of those powers an the financial masters an vested interests they themselves hav.... so like gud lil boys an gals we go off to war, die an r slaughtered in our millions..in name of freedom an liberty.... but not for that, least not for us..but for the freedom an liberties of those powerful arseholes who r doin the manipulatin... an if at the end we get a pat on the head we hav big peace party an mayb..jus mayb we can expect a lil reward..a sop 2 keep us happy. Its all a gr8 illusion they happy 2 let us hav.

Flags r important to alla that... 2 give us summat we can get all worked up ova, an its a part of the patriotism crap wich for centuries has been responsible for the deaths an miseries of millions upon millions. Its bout control of the masses by a few. An if that don make flags a rag on a pole..fuk knows wot dus!

U fall for it hun..u believe it..ur choice.. ur rite..TF not all of us r the same...

[biwords]

Ok, So, as has been said already, I don't think anyone expects someone from another country to understand how we feel about our flag and what it means

Why not? They only have to understand how they feel about THEIR flags and what their flags mean to them.

[biwords]

I am not a Real American!

I was born in Michigan. I was educated in the public school system. I was raised by a steel worker and stay at home mom. I was in the scouts. I marched in the Fourth of July parades. I grew up to pay my taxes. I vote in every election. I donate to my local charities. I spend Memorial Day honoring my relatives who have died in the field of battle.

But I am not a Real American because I don't believe exactly what you do. You have decided who is worthy to live here and I'm not one of them. I suppose it really is time I left this country for one that doesn't hate people like me as much as you and some others here have shown yourselves to do. But before I go I have one question. Can I take that scrap piece of paper that has all those rights and amendments on it with me? It's not like you're using it or anything.

Oh! I wouldn't mind having that preamble thing that comes before it if you don't mind. You know, the one that talks about We the People. You guys can write another if you want about worshiping a piece of cloth and how much more important it is than worthless human beings or silly ideas.

Enjoy your flag. I'll enjoy my freedom.

Nicely written, but who is it aimed at? Who is the 'you'? It's as if you're saying that people who revere Old Glory don't respect the Constitution and don't think you're a real American. That's just too bizarre for words.

(Tentative idea: A liberal is someone who feels embarrassment or contempt when he hears the US flag called "Old Glory').

[orpheus_lost]

Nicely written, but who is it aimed at? Who is the 'you'? It's as if you're saying that people who revere Old Glory don't respect the Constitution and don't think you're a real American. That's just too bizarre for words.

(Tentative idea: A liberal is someone who feels embarrassment or contempt when he hears the US flag called "Old Glory').

It's funny how these threads always come down to this. Someone creates a post stating that people like me don't belong in the U.S and that we should get out because we haven't turned a flag into some pagan god. I stand up for myself by saying that I belong here just as much as he does. The logic can't be refuted and all the reactionaries know they're in the wrong so they start trying to blur the original comments by putting up strawman arguments so they can knock them down and "win" the argument.

Just to be clear, the original poster made the direct implication that those who did not agree with his view of the U.S. flag were not real Americans. He brought up those words first, not me. He then directed each of us to get out of his country as though we didn't contribute to it as much as he does. I never stated or implied that he was not a real American, but I did imply that he did not respect the Constitution. Now I'll state it bluntly, if you (and by "you" I mean anyone who makes statements like the original poster) are so hung up on a flag - a flag that is never mentioned in the Constitution - that you would try to bully and shout down someone for expressing another point of view then you do not honestly respect the Constitution. I can only suggest you go back and read it very carefully to see what it really says and truly means. It's the greatest single political document in history and deserves far more respect than it is given. Please tell me why any of this is bizarre.

And another tentative idea: Perhaps those who spew jingoism should know a little about their targets before they make asinine statements. I own three flags, all folded very neatly by soldiers. I personally had the misfortune to accept one of them and I take none of them lightly. But those in my family buried didn't fight for those flags, they fought for the ideas and beliefs written down in the Constitution of the United States of America. It's time that people remembered what that document really is. And maybe its even time to retire the worn out idea that liberals and progressives don't love their country. If we didn't love it we wouldn't work so hard to protect it's greatest treasure.

[FalconAngel]

One thing that I have noticed amongst my fellow Americans is that there are a few that believe that if you don't support the policies created by emperor Bush and his cronies (and the right wing republican diatribe), then you are not a real American and possibly even a traiter.
To those idiots I say "BULLSHIT!!!"

Too many people have forgotten that this country was founded on dissent. Those aforementioned idiots need to read the Declaration of Independence.

Here's an excerpt;
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations evinces in them a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." --Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America, signed July 4, 1776

Dissent is at the very core of what we are. Real Americans despise being led about by the nose like lemmings, blindly following what we are told.

And we revel in our differences and varied opinions. That is one of the things that makes this a place that so many people want to be.

Sure, we have our problems......who doesn't? But when it all comes down to it, unlike places like the middle east and Africa where people are killing each other because they have a different version of the same religion, or because they have a different religion altogether, or are of a different ethnic background, we are beyond that (most of us are, anyway) and we see no need to kill each other over petty differences and differing ideologies or the color of your skin or your family heritage.

Some of you may disagree with me. Fine by me. You can disagree with me all you want and I can disagree with you. Here, in America, you are allowed...just as long as, in the end, you can give me the same respect for my opinion as you expect to receive for yours.

Did that help to clear up anything?

[FalconAngel]

Orpheus, every nation, every state many counties and some cities have flags. Flags, banners, standards have been around for as long as we, as a species became organized into villages and nations.

Flags are what we use, and have used since the middle ages, to identify us as nations. It identifies our national allegiance. I am an American and I will always fly my flag proudly. Just as many others do. When my flag becomes tattered and worn, then I dispose of it in accordance with federal laws.

No, there is no mention of the flag in the Constitution, but no nation makes note of their flag in any founding documents. As many know, there were many flags that were flown until our current base flag (13 stripes, alternating red and white with a field of blue with white stars representing each of the states) was finalized.
And that flag has changed over the past 231 years. We have grown in the number of states and in our place on the world stage.
We, as a nation, have done things both good and bad, but every ally that we have will always agree that we stand by them through the bad and the good and we even help those who would otherwise seek our harm.

Whether the good that we have done will balance out the harm.......well, only history will judge that.

In the mean time, I am proud to fly our nation's flag as I am proud to be what I am: an American.
And every American should be proud to be a part of this great nation, even though our current leadership is trying to drive it down the toilet. Our diversity and ability to bounce back from adversity is what makes us great.

Please, just take a moment to consider that before you "poo poo" flying the flag. Would you? Of course what you do is all up to you, but I just ask you to think about it.

[darkeyes]

Here's an excerpt;
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations evinces in them a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." --Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America, signed July 4, 1776


This part of the Constitution is inspired by the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320 sent 2 the Pope an wich contained the earliest known statement of the relationship between King and people. Trivia..but fun.. but important. Far 2 many r intolerant of liberty an freedom of speech wile espousing the value of freedom. Bushie an his arsewipe m8's espousin the word freedom as liberally as they do, devalue it, an almost make it dirty. Lot in ere 2..

[vittoria]

IMHO, and not to wax Biblical, there are actually some things that I DONT understand!! :)

First of all, I'm neither 'Liberal' or 'Republican'. I dont like titles. I dont even like being called 'ma'am'. Titles are only around to make people feel good about themselves, give off an air of self importance, and they are for those with a superiority complex... IMHO. (Pride IS one of the seven deadly sins after all... and BOY its a SLAUGHTER!) I'm a human being first and foremost. And I personally dont care if you call the flag "Old Glory", "Stars n Stripes", Harvey Lipschitz or Cheese Whiz. Thats your ("your" as in ANYBODY... I'm not getting personal) business.There's some REAL HUMAN SH*T happening on this planet, and in case anyone hasnt noticed, bullshit DOES NOT CHECK FOR FLAG DESIGNATION...people are dying everywhere from something, have governments they dont like, and in those governments the world over they even have assholes that think they speak for everyone (just like over here).

Why are terms like liberal and progressive and reichwing bandied about so much? In this country, we are sliced, diced, and julienne fried so damn much its difficult to open one's mouth without being labeled SOMETHING( as bisexuals trying to live our lives, we should know better)---which brings up an oxymoron of a friend of mine's and I'll share it...

Why in the world are there people on here critiquing what Republicans and Fox News title 'liberals'?? This IS a bi-site after all.... and its not like the Right Wing humans are going to welcome you with open arms... hell even those who do have a omnisexual ( i like that one) personality in the Right Wing political theatre know better to, "Keep it in the closet" ( though not too well... cases in point, Larry Craig, and that one other Republican individual who gave his wallet to some guy as collateral in exchange for sex and was seen on security camera with lingerie receiving fellatios in the adult book store---the same persons who vote down OUR rights!!!!)

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/the-outing/1322/


http://www.kirotv.com/news/14473628/detail.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/washington/08culture.html?hp&ex=1160280000&en=a13a3dac6d27c8cb&ei=5094&partner=homepage

And as for waxing Biblical, I know for certain that there was a commandment stating that no one should make a image of anything in the heavens or earth to fall down and do obesiance to it... it may not be a direct quote, but I THINK if there IS a God, he would probably be pissed that we insist on giving reverence and holiness to the creation rather than the creator... (see my earlier post regarding Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego...look those names up on the Google)

I may be some dumb, but I'm not "plumb dumb"--I have relatives who fought for THIS COUNTRY, the people in it, the Constitution of the United States...as was their choice and their right....But none of them get bent out of shape over the flag of these UnTied States (I think we lost our laces somewhere in the shuffle...or has anyone forgotten the "house divided shall not stand" speech of Lincoln???)

If we're not careful, this country will become just like those other ones aforementioned in the Middle East and Africa where folks will be bludgeoning each other in the streets over who's political party is right, who believes in God or Chris Hutchens (the reincarnated, "New Jack" Darwin), demonizing everyone that chooses to live free. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and LORD KNOWS there's opinions aplenty flying to the left and the right (I've been ducking some poinards in here!!!)---but keep one thing in mind... as long as we are born here, live here, pay taxes here, and at least keep palaver over the sh*t thats going on in the news today, we're ALL "Real Americans".... no one said anything about burning the damn flag... no one is wiping their asses with it... they (or we, depending on who you are ) just realize theres other things to go with patriotism than just a flag...how about some HUMAN DECENCY for starters. When we get that down, and we as a people start practicing what we preach (or shove down the collective throats of the worldwide population) then maybe the importance of the American flag might be forefront again...right now, first things first. Let's start with giving a damn about each other as HUMANS before we start separating ourselves into 'cliques'.

[biwords]

It's funny how these threads always come down to this. Someone creates a post stating that people like me don't belong in the U.S and that we should get out because we haven't turned a flag into some pagan god. I stand up for myself by saying that I belong here just as much as he does. The logic can't be refuted and all the reactionaries know they're in the wrong so they start trying to blur the original comments by putting up strawman arguments so they can knock them down and "win" the argument.

Just to be clear, the original poster made the direct implication that those who did not agree with his view of the U.S. flag were not real Americans. He brought up those words first, not me. He then directed each of us to get out of his country as though we didn't contribute to it as much as he does. I never stated or implied that he was not a real American, but I did imply that he did not respect the Constitution. Now I'll state it bluntly, if you (and by "you" I mean anyone who makes statements like the original poster) are so hung up on a flag - a flag that is never mentioned in the Constitution - that you would try to bully and shout down someone for expressing another point of view then you do not honestly respect the Constitution. I can only suggest you go back and read it very carefully to see what it really says and truly means. It's the greatest single political document in history and deserves far more respect than it is given. Please tell me why any of this is bizarre.

And another tentative idea: Perhaps those who spew jingoism should know a little about their targets before they make asinine statements. I own three flags, all folded very neatly by soldiers. I personally had the misfortune to accept one of them and I take none of them lightly. But those in my family buried didn't fight for those flags, they fought for the ideas and beliefs written down in the Constitution of the United States of America. It's time that people remembered what that document really is. And maybe its even time to retire the worn out idea that liberals and progressives don't love their country. If we didn't love it we wouldn't work so hard to protect it's greatest treasure.

Ahhhhhhh....now I get it; you were responding to qchamp's original post. You didn't reference it in your posting, so I didn't make the connection. And you DID refer to the flag as a 'piece of cloth' (I know, you also referred to the Constitution as a 'scrap of paper', but that was clearly ironic). Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. In any case, I never doubted that you're a 'real American'!

As for the "worn out idea that liberals and progressives [sic] don't love their country", the truth is, some do, some don't; some only love the idea of what it COULD be if only their pet nostrums were adopted. Unfortunately, a number of liberals -- let's not argue about the exact percentage -- do make a habit of siding with their country's enemies, explicitly or implicitly. This was clearly seen after 9/11, when liberal commentators focused on what they called the 'root causes' of terrorism -- that is, urged us all to consider the many horrible things the US must have done to trigger such a reaction from the (normally peaceful?) Arabs. Even Bill Maher, who sees so many things so clearly, wrote that "They hate us because we don't even know why they hate us" -- again placing the blame on the U.S.

[biwords]

This part of the Constitution is inspired by the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320

Ah, yes, who can forget the Declaration of.......Arbroath, was it? :)

Of course, the Declaration of Arbroath was copied almost word for word from a passage in the Visigothic law code, the "Veeblefetzer Codex", c. 520 A.D., which was derived in turn from a graffito on a Roman outhouse wall in Fundibulum, 39 B.C.E. (just under the one that says "for a good time, call Lucilla").

Seriously, your historical reach is impressive.....!

[biwords]

Great post, Vitt! Thanks for putting this debate in perspective.

[darkeyes]

Ah, yes, who can forget the Declaration of.......Arbroath, was it? :)

Of course, the Declaration of Arbroath was copied almost word for word from a passage in the Visigothic law code, the "Veeblefetzer Codex", c. 520 A.D., which was derived in turn from a graffito on a Roman outhouse wall in Fundibulum, 39 B.C.E. (just under the one that says "for a good time, call Lucilla").

Seriously, your historical reach is impressive.....!

Really Wordsie?? Wow. Me stands corrected..not!

Seriously range of your hysterical idiocy is ever more impressive than my historical reach, I will grant ya that!

[the mage]

HUH.... interesting...

All I'm going to add to this nonsense is this, hey, any American who loves their country should leave it. For a short time at least.
Do NOT presume to preach to all of us, this is a world wide site, about how America is the greatest if you've never left the place and seen the rest of the world. I do not mean while wearing a uniform either. I mean really traveled.


Its a big world, America is now a country is SERIOUS decline. Your culture is built on unsustainable ideals. Change is coming in a BIG way. Arrogance has not served America well in the past and it will not in the future.

The world economy, created by your own corporations, now is in control. Not "American policy" Big oil is not longer American, it is Chinese.

You do live in a fabulous place, but reality is that no, the rest of the world does not want to be you. Everyone loves their own home, the inability to see that has cost American lives in many foolish venture in many countries.

[darkeyes]

Ahhhhhhh....now I get it; you were responding to qchamp's original post. You didn't reference it in your posting, so I didn't make the connection. And you DID refer to the flag as a 'piece of cloth' (I know, you also referred to the Constitution as a 'scrap of paper', but that was clearly ironic). Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. In any case, I never doubted that you're a 'real American'!

As for the "worn out idea that liberals and progressives [sic] don't love their country", the truth is, some do, some don't; some only love the idea of what it COULD be if only their pet nostrums were adopted. Unfortunately, a number of liberals -- let's not argue about the exact percentage -- do make a habit of siding with their country's enemies, explicitly or implicitly. This was clearly seen after 9/11, when liberal commentators focused on what they called the 'root causes' of terrorism -- that is, urged us all to consider the many horrible things the US must have done to trigger such a reaction from the (normally peaceful?) Arabs. Even Bill Maher, who sees so many things so clearly, wrote that "They hate us because we don't even know why they hate us" -- again placing the blame on the U.S.

sum times me misses a wee gem... this is 1 athem.. an archetypical arch conservative pointa view.. its not Wordsie that liberals or ne 1 else sides wiv the enemies of the US.. its that they see that ther is much responsibility that the US bears for the present state a play in this world. So dus me own an the russians an chinese... their governments..not the peeps..tho people cud do more 2 try an get em 2 get of ther arse an make a real difference an begin the process a reconciliation an tryin 2 cum 2 sum solution ratha than jus hav a lil war ere, an a lil war ther, an lil insurrection across the sea.. many peeps hate americans not for themselves..but for the actions of ther government..jus as they do the Brits, the French et al.

We know fine that no 1 escapes responsibility for wot goes on ne wer ne more.. the prinsipal responisbility is that of the bastard aresholes who run governemnt..bt we..the ordinary peeps r culpable for 1... puttin em ther..an 2...not tryin 2 stop em from actin like arseholes 1ce they r ther...

Peeps know wy they hate americans..or at least wy they think they do... an even in that vague if incorrect assumption ther remains a graina truth. America has tentacles everywer..an its govt thinks very often it can do wtf it likes wiv impunity..... an it often dus.. it has often been a constructive force in this world, the reasons don matta..but all 2 often, espesh in recent years..it has been quite opposite... peoples get blamed for the perceptions of others by the actions of ther Governement an action in this global capitalist word, commerce of ther nation....the US, like the UK, an many otha western powers..an like the Chinese, Japanese an othas for multifarious reasons...it has fallen flat on its face an been found tragically wanting.

Me don hate americans, ratha likes the sods..don hate ne 1 contrary 2 sum peeps assumptions an opinions... but dus hate summa the things they allow ther govt 2 gerraway wiv wivout demur an creatin a stink, wivout question..dus hate the sheepish way they sit on ther hands an do nowt or swallow every word ther govt tells em outa misplaced patriotism or jus outa sheer stupidity..how they flag wave an r so fukkin arrogant as 2 assume that only ther nation has a divine rite 2 rule the world...

Magie has jus bout rite in his observation..the US is in serious decline... question is how it will deal wiv that decline.. in a mature manna or like a spoilt child havin its toys taken away..the signs aint so gud.

[biwords]

Seriously range of your hysterical idiocy is ever more impressive than my historical reach, I will grant ya that!

Wow, Fran, what did I do to deserve that from you? ('hysterical idiocy')

[darkeyes]

Wow, Fran, what did I do to deserve that from you? ('hysterical idiocy')

o ya know wot me like babes.... hit out at ne me c's talkin bollox....muah.

[FalconAngel]

This part of the Constitution is inspired by the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320 sent 2 the Pope an wich contained the earliest known statement of the relationship between King and people. Trivia..but fun.. but important. Far 2 many r intolerant of liberty an freedom of speech wile espousing the value of freedom. Bushie an his arsewipe m8's espousin the word freedom as liberally as they do, devalue it, an almost make it dirty. Lot in ere 2..

Very true. Spoken with the wisdom of a true student of history.

Much of what is on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is drawn from other documents which had previously made strides toward freer forms of government. Some of the Constitution is drawn from the rules of the Iriquois Confederation.

Many Americans don't really understand the basic freedoms that we have here, let alone the subtle complexities of the ones that many of us take for granted, like freedom of speech and separation of church and state. Even some of the veterans and active duty soldiers, who have sworn their lives to protect those freedoms do not understand them as well as they should.
That basic lack of understanding is what has allowed idiots like Emporer Bush and Lord Darth Cheney to take many of those freedoms away from us, slowly eroding away the things that make this a great nation and taking us down that dark road to eventual 3rd world police state status.

What really gets my goat, from personal experience, is the number of children born here of immigrant parents (mostly Cuban, since we live in Florida) who do not understand the freedoms that they came here to enjoy. Many children who's parents were born here don't get it either. It's almost as if the teachers in school glaze over that part of history for them so that they could get to more politically correct curriculum.

Too often, people both in and out of this country make assumptions of who we are and what this country is about based on the actions of our leadership. Unfortunately, our current leadership is lacking in honor and morality. Sure, they say how moral they are being as they are "good, church going, god fearing Christians", but how often in our planet's history have there been atrocities committed against others by ""good, church going, god fearing Christians"? Too often, I think that we can all agree. Not that Christians are all bad. It's just that men like that need to be kept reigned in and out of power because they are the worst kind of evil, using their religion as a cloak to hide their true intentions and pulling the wool over everyone's eyes who is not vigilant to it.

In the old days, the price of liberty was blood. Now the price of liberty is vigilance and too few people realize that, which is what has allowed evil men to take power here.

[canuckotter]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!

Y'know, this may just be my twisted sense of humour, but does anyone else find this statement vaguely ironic given that Drew is Canadian? :bigrin:

[slocum5]

Drew,
It's no surprise to me. My neighbor is a Canadian who has lived in the US for 30 years on a green card is a liberal and obviously a fan of Bill Moyer, et al. We have lively. but friendly debates. He's a prince with one fatal flaw, liberalism. He faills to recognize the disease.:tongue:

[darkeyes]

Drew,
It's no surprise to me. My neighbor is a Canadian who has lived in the US for 30 years on a green card is a liberal and obviously a fan of Bill Moyer, et al. We have lively. but friendly debates. He's a prince with one fatal flaw, liberalism. He faills to recognize the disease.:tongue:

Me thinks its a disease as well Slocum hun...but its hardly fatal..kinda like gettina bad cold..seems 2 me like u has the fatal kind... dus hope they can finda cure..tho think bout it a lil an ya can cure yasel...:tong:

Get well soon:bigrin:

[slocum5]

Dark eyes,

You are a delighful piece of sardonic work. Sincerly. At least as sincere as I get. I enjoy your reparte. Don't worry about my Canuck neighbor. Three right wing thugs and and I "water boarded" him this afternoon. He sees things more clearly now. We did the same to Joe Lieberman. Had to do him twice.

Hope you are well and well ensconed in London Town Don't know what the green smile means, but return it. :bigrin:

[country60]

Why not? They only have to understand how they feel about THEIR flags and what their flags mean to them.

In answer to this, from what I can tell there are people here that have no respect for thier own flag or country. I do not and have never thought of our flag or any others flag as a "rag on a pole".

[frenchvikki]

I do not consider the flag of any country merely a rag on a pole, for that 'rag' to most people is the most obvious symbol of that nations identity, ethos and morality. Having said that, I do understand that for many, the decisions of that country's government, and the actions of its military and often its civil authorities makes some people lose respect for government, armed forces, civil authorities and ultimately country.

It is a two way thing respect. Our country does not have an automatic right to it simply because of accident of birth, or even adoption. Governments demand respect of country and of flag very often without returning that respect by its actions very often in flagrant contradicton of the overwhelming view of the people of that country. Occasionally arguably, this may be acceptable, but the actions and decisions of successive governments of almost every nation on earth are at least as often as not in direct opposition to the wishes of the people who are after all, the real nation. A nation is its people and the land in which they live merely its home.

The abuse, corruption and shadiness to say the least, of politicians of all political persuasions is a condemnation not simply of those politicians although contempt and condemnation is certainly their due, it is a condemnation of the democratic process itself which has proven incapable of allowing efficient proper and honest government almost everywhere it exists. It is also a condemnation of we, the people for our inability to be bothered to properly call to account our elected representatives, and insist on proper and decent government.The United States and Great Britain are no exceptions to this and are arguably the worst culprits in the democratic world. Far from being the most free nations on earth they are shackled by arrogance and contempt for any who stand in their way and would have us, their citizens shackled by absolute obedience and acceptance of all that is done in our name. Any who demur are considered traitor and disloyal. We are expected to be unquestioning sheep.

I do not wish to enter into an argument about political systems, or economics or anything else, although am prepared to do so if it should prove necessary. What I am saying is that there is no reason why we have an obligation to respect our country or its flag. Respect is earned, not an obligation.

My father, a soft spoken old Highlander and presbyterian schoolteacher told me never to respect any person who did not earn it by his actions. He raised me never to respect any organisation which did not act in such a way so as to earn my respect. He included in that everything and everyone. He included himself in that, and it was by his actions, although we often disagreed, that he earned my respect. Following his example, and as a primary school teacher I have never demanded respect from adults or children. I earn it if I can, and this view has often found me in conflict with colleagues especially in the case of young children. It is my personal ethos and extremely important to me.

It is all too pitiful then that the representatives of our countries demand our respect without doing very much, if anything to earn it. Consequently, no reason exists for anyone to have respect for the flag, or the nation it represents, when neither nation through its elected government, or its authorities including the military, return to the people the respect which they demand for themselves. For by demanding and not earning it, the right to that respect is forfeit. We may often talk and act with respect to those who are undeserving of it, but when the chips are down, we, the people must be prepared to display our true feelings and our contempt for them. Far too many of us just think how wonderful we are as a nation, how we have the right to own the world, how all other nations are the bad guy, and dont care enough to do otherwise. They also are deserving of our utter contempt.

I love my country. It is doubtful that I shall ever leave it to live anywhere else, but I certainly do not have any respect for it or its flag. Government, authorities and to a lesser extent the people of the United Kingdom have long since ceased to earn my respect either because of what they have done, and more often than not because of what they should have done or not done or indeed what they failed to do.

[FalconAngel]

Well spoken, Frenchvikki.

While I was overseas, I tried very hard to learn about and fit into the cultures that I was in contact with. We had far too many members of the base that were the epitome of the "ugly American" and I was not going to contribute to that. I was, and still am, proud of the accomplishments that we have made as a nation and I didn't want to help make any new enemies through my actions.

Like you say, respect is earned, and I made certain that I did all that I could to earn the respect of those people who I was in contact with. I still do. What has become a common practice, here in the States, however, is the disrespectful actions of those who come to this country and hate America, but still use it to make money to take back to their respective homes.

That is disrespectful. It hurts this nation.....and before we hear about the old saw of "the illegals do the jobs that Americans won't", they should look back at our history. We will do those jobs to feed our families, but there are those that want to ruin the nation from within by not enforcing the laws properly.

I can understand if someone wants to come here because they are in a country that is oppressive like the old Soviet Union, or even Cuba, but only the Cubans and Mexicans are trying to force their culture on the rest of this country.

I believe that if where a person came from was so bad that they had to leave it to go somewhere else, then the ones who moved should change their ways to suit where they move to and NOT the other way around.
That, too, is respect. Respect your host and you will get respect from your host.

[biwords]

...there is no reason why we have an obligation to respect our country or its flag. Respect is earned, not an obligation.

Socrates would have replied that your country educated you and that you have lived under the protection of its laws, defective though they may be; you therefore owe it respect. (This is why he refused to flee Athens even when the death sentence was pronounced on him). This does not imply that you have to support the political party in power, or even that you have to like your neighbours.

My guess is that you'd be pretty sore if the government infringed your rights. But if you disavow any duty of respect towards the country and its laws, it seems only fair that you also disavow any claim to 'rights' and benefits from it. As it is, you appear to want the benefits while rejecting the duties. Of course, when a large number of citizens start feeling this way, you have the 'war of all against all' that Hobbes warned against, resulting ultimately in social breakdown and the rise of an unambiguous tyrant whose only claim to legitimacy is his ability to restore order. If you don't like that prospect, perhaps you should 'ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country'.

[biwords]

....and before we hear about the old saw of "the illegals do the jobs that Americans won't", they should look back at our history. We will do those jobs to feed our families...

Absolutely. (Funny how those jobs all got done between 1925-1965, when the US had a moratorium on immigration). It might be truer to say "Americans are unwilling to do these jobs at less than a living wage", while the business class realizes that an open door immigration policy brings them workers whom they don't have to pay a living wage and who can basically be treated like shit. It's ironic that the Left, by supporting open-door immigration, sells out the workers, losing its last shred of integrity in the process.

[frenchvikki]

Socrates would have replied that your country educated you and that you have lived under the protection of its laws, defective though they may be; you therefore owe it respect. (This is why he refused to flee Athens even when the death sentence was pronounced on him). This does not imply that you have to support the political party in power, or even that you have to like your neighbours.

My guess is that you'd be pretty sore if the government infringed your rights. But if you disavow any duty of respect towards the country and its laws, it seems only fair that you also disavow any claim to 'rights' and benefits from it. As it is, you appear to want the benefits while rejecting the duties. Of course, when a large number of citizens start feeling this way, you have the 'war of all against all' that Hobbes warned against, resulting ultimately in social breakdown and the rise of an unambiguous tyrant whose only claim to legitimacy is his ability to restore order. If you don't like that prospect, perhaps you should 'ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country'.

May I say here that Socrates was a man of his time. Ancient Greece is no more, and if many of our modern ideas derived from that culture, many, such as this notion are outmoded and irrelevant in the 21st century of the modern era. I do not owe my country respect. There is much I respect about it but obligation to respect it per se is not one.

My country did not educate me at all. Nor did it provide me with the protection of its laws. Governments and Parliaments may have made statutory provision for that protection, and for that education as it has in the establishment of its health service and many other public services. The people of my country educated me, people protected me, the people of the land in which I was brought up, and people have provided me with the health care I have required throughout my life. This may sound like nit picking, but it is not to me. The state did not make provision for any of these things out of the goodness of its heart. These things were ultimately provided because of the progress which humanity in my country has always striven to make over centuries, and the pressure put upon governments to do so by successive generations. These things do not come free, and are paid for out of the taxes which I, the people of my country, and our ancestors have always paid and the wit and imagination they have had in ensuring that the restraints of government, and its doctrines have been overcome as far as is possible. The true credit, and respect if it is due to anyone, is to them.

Governments provide nothing for free. They want a return, and they want us moulded into what they want us to be. As the elected representatives of we, the people, they determine that we shall be obligated to them, in the manner which they decide upon, hence the way institutions have grown up in this country over time, and the way in which our children have been educated. It is therefore in the nations interest that we are protected, educated and cared for as much as our own as individuals. This returns me to my point. We owe the government of the day nothing save which it has earned. And as the government, and yes the people have shaped out nation as it exists today, we owe neither nation or people respect as of right, as they owe us only that which we have earned as human beings.

My duties and obligations are not to my country, but its people. It is their respect I desire and strive for, and through the education of its children, without much of the doctrine which which is set into its education systems, I hope to be a small contributor to helping my nation regain its self respect and move it forward. I desire neither violent upheaval or revolution, but I do desire and strive for real change. Quoting John Kennedy does nothing for me. Sound bites even from an earlier era leave me cold. It was in 1961 trite, and it is the more so in 2007. Far better had he said simply nothing, for nothing has changed in the intervening 46 years.

Country is a plot of ground where people live, with artificially decided borders to hem them in, or conversely to keep others out. Nationhood is a different beast, and depicts, people and their aspirations and working for the common good. If obligations there are, these are to each other as human beings to strive for respect from and toward each other, and to treat each other with all the compassion and understanding they have to offer, to strive for their betterment free of the contempt which love of country, and worship at the alter of its flag brings upon humanity. Respect remains therefore never an obligation no matter who or what, large or small. It remains something to be earned.

[MarieDelta]

Absolutely. (Funny how those jobs all got done between 1925-1965, when the US had a moratorium on immigration). It might be truer to say "Americans are unwilling to do these jobs at less than a living wage", while the business class realizes that an open door immigration policy brings them workers whom they don't have to pay a living wage and who can basically be treated like shit. It's ironic that the Left, by supporting open-door immigration, sells out the workers, losing its last shred of integrity in the process.

Illegal immigrants can be treated like shit, because they are afraid of what will happen if they are found out. Legal Migrants have no such fears. Therefore they can be protected, and their employers can be required to provide the normal protections, wages etc. that are required by both federal and state laws. I suppose I am tired of being told that Migrants are stealing our jobs, when the corporate farmers encourage these people to migrate.


Political parties are pretty much worthless when it comes to the lower and middle classes and the sooner we deal with that fact the better off we will be. The politicians would like you to believe that each is better than his peer, while infact all are supported and bought by corporate power, and it is only the honest who stay bought.

Don't get me wrong I'm for a democracy, and a representive one at that, but it is a far from perfect government, just the best one we can come up with.

[biwords]

May I say here that Socrates was a man of his time. Ancient Greece is no more, and if many of our modern ideas derived from that culture, many, such as this notion are outmoded and irrelevant in the 21st century of the modern era. I do not owe my country respect. There is much I respect about it but obligation to respect it per se is not one.

My country did not educate me at all. Nor did it provide me with the protection of its laws. Governments and Parliaments may have made statutory provision for that protection, and for that education as it has in the establishment of its health service and many other public services. The people of my country educated me, people protected me, the people of the land in which I was brought up, and people have provided me with the health care I have required throughout my life. This may sound like nit picking, but it is not to me. The state did not make provision for any of these things out of the goodness of its heart. These things were ultimately provided because of the progress which humanity in my country has always striven to make over centuries, and the pressure put upon governments to do so by successive generations. These things do not come free, and are paid for out of the taxes which I, the people of my country, and our ancestors have always paid and the wit and imagination they have had in ensuring that the restraints of government, and its doctrines have been overcome as far as is possible. The true credit, and respect if it is due to anyone, is to them.

Governments provide nothing for free. They want a return, and they want us moulded into what they want us to be. As the elected representatives of we, the people, they determine that we shall be obligated to them, in the manner which they decide upon, hence the way institutions have grown up in this country over time, and the way in which our children have been educated. It is therefore in the nations interest that we are protected, educated and cared for as much as our own as individuals. This returns me to my point. We owe the government of the day nothing save which it has earned. And as the government, and yes the people have shaped out nation as it exists today, we owe neither nation or people respect as of right, as they owe us only that which we have earned as human beings.

My duties and obligations are not to my country, but its people. It is their respect I desire and strive for, and through the education of its children, without much of the doctrine which which is set into its education systems, I hope to be a small contributor to helping my nation regain its self respect and move it forward. I desire neither violent upheaval or revolution, but I do desire and strive for real change. Quoting John Kennedy does nothing for me. Sound bites even from an earlier era leave me cold. It was in 1961 trite, and it is the more so in 2007. Far better had he said simply nothing, for nothing has changed in the intervening 46 years.

Country is a plot of ground where people live, with artificially decided borders to hem them in, or conversely to keep others out. Nationhood is a different beast, and depicts, people and their aspirations and working for the common good. If obligations there are, these are to each other as human beings to strive for respect from and toward each other, and to treat each other with all the compassion and understanding they have to offer, to strive for their betterment free of the contempt which love of country, and worship at the alter of its flag brings upon humanity. Respect remains therefore never an obligation no matter who or what, large or small. It remains something to be earned.

This is turning into an exercise in semantics. Of course a country is its people. The flag isn't about real estate. And the people around you -- your 'countrymen' -- have given you much for which you should properly be grateful (I know, gratitude is the most unfashionable of the virtues). You seem to be saying, 'but what have they done for me lately?" -- that is, you want the country to do still more for you before you'll concede that it has 'earned' your respect. I can't read your mind, of course, but this does seem to be what you are actually saying.

[biwords]

Illegal immigrants can be treated like shit, because they are afraid of what will happen if they are found out. Legal Migrants have no such fears.
Political parties are pretty much worthless when it comes to the lower and middle classes and the sooner we deal with that fact the better off we will be...The politicians would like you to believe that each is better than his peer, while infact all are supported and bought by corporate power...Don't get me wrong I'm for a democracy, and a representive one at that, but it is a far from perfect government, just the best one we can come up with.

Yes, I should have distinguished between legal and illegal immigrants. Apparently you have between 15-30 million of the latter. But even if they all left, while legal immigration continued, the ultijmate effect would still be to push wages and benefits down.

My impression is that most people share your view that the government is sijmply the instrument of the corporations. Personally, I think it's a half-truth masquerading as the whole truth. The big business types I've met seem to feel persecuted by the government, which they see as pandering for the masses' votes. They certainly don't seem to feel that they have the government 'in their pocket'. I wonder to what extent the popularity of the corporations-run-the-whole-show doctine stems from endless television dramas in which the businessperson is always the villian - ?

[slocum5]

Democrats want illegals for their potential votes, ergo power. Republicans want them for cheap labor, ergo higher profits

[MarieDelta]

Yes, I should have distinguished between legal and illegal immigrants. Apparently you have between 15-30 million of the latter. But even if they all left, while legal immigration continued, the ultijmate effect would still be to push wages and benefits down.

My impression is that most people share your view that the government is sijmply the instrument of the corporations. Personally, I think it's a half-truth masquerading as the whole truth. The big business types I've met seem to feel persecuted by the government, which they see as pandering for the masses' votes. They certainly don't seem to feel that they have the government 'in their pocket'. I wonder to what extent the popularity of the corporations-run-the-whole-show doctine stems from endless television dramas in which the businessperson is always the villian - ?

Hmm I see where you are coming from yes. But that isn't where I get my impression of corporations. I've actually lived it. My father worked for a saw mill for most of his carreer and my great uncle and grandfather worked in two other mills just like it.

We never had much money, and that wasn't because the work was easy.

I've read history, seen where corporations tried to break strikes using whatever means necsarry, seen where coal miners have been sold out by the government and their employers. Seen where people have been asked to do things both illegal and unethical by corporations.

No the government isnt completely controlled by the corps, but its getting too damn close. Where was the Gov't on Enron? Blackwater? and a dozen other corporations? Remember the Shuttle? And how many people have to die before a tire gets recalled?

[vittoria]

whoa.

and i thought this thread was a goner...

Well here goes. The "Flame Warriors" might get a kick out of this one... but this is my opinion, and being an American ( of multicultural descent), I have a right to it. "Sorry bout yer luck."


everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but there is something to consider... would you willingly kill your next door neighbor for your beliefs? whether it is that the flag is a 'rag on a pole'... or that the flag is the next best thing since sliced bread ( not exactly stated by anyone, but that's the theme i see many running with...)?

before everyone goes and gets militant, lets try understanding other people first before making blanket statements about where they should go and how they should get there for not agreeing with you. what personal experiences have they had; why do they feel the way they feel? Some people who live in this country have either been to war, have 'old money', have family that have come over on the mayflower, and everything else---and naturally for those reasons and others, would appreciate this flag.

Others are broke, had ancestors who were 'slaves', been given a rigamarole from here to hell and back about any list of things ( has anyone been to the DMV/BMV lately???), been wrongfully accused/imprisoned, had the system NOT WORK FOR THEM, see the hypocrisy of the media, watched in horror as their liberties and freedoms have dwindled for years (PLEASE dont challenge for sources... There would be a youtube/onegoodmove.org explosion in this comment... and thats another thread!!) and the politics (poli= many tics= bloodsuckers), and THOSE persons may not throw a party just because the flag is there.

Do we all want to look/act like a bunch of Nazis (storm trooping and goose stepping with flag armbands), throwing people out of homes and calling them names because they dont share the same beliefs, justifying the concentration camp mentality that Gitmo started in the name of "democracy" and "patriotism"? With the vehemance that I have seen in here so far and lately... we're not far from it.

IMHO.

[darkeyes]

This is turning into an exercise in semantics. Of course a country is its people. The flag isn't about real estate. And the people around you -- your 'countrymen' -- have given you much for which you should properly be grateful (I know, gratitude is the most unfashionable of the virtues). You seem to be saying, 'but what have they done for me lately?" -- that is, you want the country to do still more for you before you'll concede that it has 'earned' your respect. I can't read your mind, of course, but this does seem to be what you are actually saying.
Me dus believe yas rite Wordsie... not that its an excercise in semantics, cos it plainly aint..cos no 1 cept vikki that me can c has raised jus wot the nation actually is (tho have mentoned this in otha threads). U certainly didn so if me wos u me wud drop the "of course bit.."... zif it wos so obvious that its beneath contempt... point me been makin from beginnin is the flag means sod all cept a beacon for the jingoist "my country rite or rong brigade" an for the powers that b 2 rally peeps 2 support unpopular causes... even fi it wos so obvious it slapped ya in face she articulated it 2 make jus wot nation is slap ya in the face even if ya a no brainer!

Dus read zif she sayin jus wot u sayin bout peeps... but that is no disgrace cos me reads that as a cry of despair from sum 1 who cares bout er peeps an c's em simply layin down an lettin the government of the day walk all over em. Jeez babes me been in despair all me life bout jus how much Brits will take fore they get off ther arses an reely gets worked up bout how Governments of all parties have been treatin em...

Seems at least from ur pointa view as me reads it least she believes in nationhood.. me own pointa view on that ya knows very well... its day is dun... but not gonna argue bout that ere.. An every word she sez bout respect is the crux of the matta... wy shud ne 1 respect that wich has no respect for ne 1 cept itself.. we don owe the country our livin an our respect an fuk 2 duty to nation..we don owe it sod all.. we make the bloody place by the contribution we makes in finance an effort, in imagination an belief. Fact is mos peeps in the UK, an in the US wanna take every day, wanna jus let governent do woetva they will for a few years, an do sod all 2 create reel change of a betta world by givin. Not all tf, many do care an do act an do think an do question, an they r our hope. Wot we get from country wos paid for by blood an wealth of our parents an ther parents who fought an often died for our rites, ... eddication, health an "protection" (inverted commas deliberate..cos thats a rite loada bollox.... tryin 2 keep a str8 face ere ova that stupid statement). An who did they fite 2 get those rites?? yas gorrit babes.... our nation in many cases our people..an certainly always our government... the US was created by doin jus that ffs!

U raised Jack Kennedy an Vikki sed wot e said wos trite. It wos worse than trite. It wos irresponsible an an illusion, a con, a maneouvre, for by wot we can do for our country wot e reely meant wos we give all an e an his cabal an the elite take, an so the world continues as it has wivout ne real change. Certainly not be for the betta.

Like Vikki me don respect the flag..apart from the fact its hideous it stands for lotsa things me loathes .. government of this country the same... an the people of it hav becum more selfish an less carin an more graspin an in so many ways more intolerant of otha races an nations... the flag is waved by governments to encourage the anti europeans, anti immigrants, anti arab anti everythin .. 2 wage wars...2 stop us exercisin our democratic rites..2 take away centuries of rites that thousands of peeps died for..an its pikked up by self interested xenophobes who preach hatred an loathin....an peeps bloody let em... respect??? jeez..don make me laff!

Me raised subject of Dick Sharpe an is "rag on pole". Me sees no reason 2 backtrack on it..but dus c reason 2 amend it slitely.. its a mucky "rag on a pole"!

[12voltman59]

This is the internet and as such--it is pretty much everyplace so having any flag is fine--I took this photo down in Mexico and figure--what the hell-I am going to post it here--one huge honking Mexican flag--"the mother of all flags" I would say!!! LOL

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/mpgarr/P1040884.jpg

This flag was located in the central portion of San Jose del Cabo

This one can't be cut down!! LOL

[vittoria]

This is the internet and as such--it is pretty much everyplace so having any flag is fine--I took this photo down in Mexico and figure--what the hell-I am going to post it here--one huge honking Mexican flag--"the mother of all flags" I would say!!! LOL

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/mpgarr/P1040884.jpg

This flag was located in the central portion of San Jose del Cabo

This one can't be cut down!! LOL

now here it is twice (volty you rock)

ROFLMMFAO!!!!! hahahahahahahahahahhaahahah!!!:bigrin:

[xxxcjs]

I am with you 100% . love it or leave it. Whey sould we ever have a flag flown over our own . I am all for not closing the border but defending them aginst the invasion that is happening to this country, and our ay of life.

[AdamKadmon43]

...... And on and on it goes .....

[vittoria]

:banghead::compuser::cutelaugh

[FalconAngel]

Basically, it comes down to the simple philosophy of;
"If I live in your country, I live by your (country's) rules. If you live in my country, you live by my (country's) rules."
Sounds fair to me.
If they can't abide by the rules and mores of where they CHOOSE to live, then they deserve no respect from those whom they disrespect. That includes disrespecting the banner of the nation which is their host.

Sorry, but I don't spit in my host's face. In any way shape or form. And it is unrealistic for me to accept anyone spitting in my nation's face when they have chosen to live here.

[DiamondDog]

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4642

:banghead:

[darkeyes]

Basically, it comes down to the simple philosophy of;
"If I live in your country, I live by your (country's) rules. If you live in my country, you live by my (country's) rules."

Soz...thats cobblers Falcon..cos if we did that nowt wud change...homosexuality wud still b illegal..we wudn hav the same rites as str8 peeps 2 legalise our union an inherit from our luffers.. an a million otha things... rules change..an me makes it me life's job 2 do me lil bit 2 get em changed wen they need changin!!

[darkeyes]

Ona lita note...me jus bout 2 get me face dun... its footie 2 day.. an we off 2 Glasgow 2 c Scotland stuff Italy in the last game of the qualifiers for the Eurepean Championships.. now we havta win!! nowt else is gud enuff!!! Lil Fran in banshee mode 2 day an a lil more hyper than usual.

Now me knows that most ofya don give a sod bout who wins.. spesh those of ya that play a game called football wen bout only time ya touch ball wivya feet is at kick off time anya spend a lil wile doin sod all cept standin around an then runnin inta each otha an wearin cuppla tonna armour an stupid crash helmets on ya head... god... borin..macho bollox but its wotya like..fair do's.
Propa fitba' lil more finesse an lot more fun! (Soz Taylor..know ya disagree....).

Point me makin ere is this...in a lil Kate gonna do me face.. on me face will b luffly dark blue background an a white cross... the saltire..the cross of St Andrew.. the national flag a Scotland an me like gud lil Scots girl will scream an shout an swear in support of me team... now me treats me team ere in same way as me treats me luffly Jambos at club level... they r me team... an the flag merely ID's me a supporter... ne otha use for a flag..otha than as a mode of ID of place is wot me baulks at an cant get me head round!! An as far is takin issue wiv ne 1 an havin bitta punch up... sport..spesh footie..bout as serious as we shud eva let it get!!

[frenchvikki]

Yes, I should have distinguished between legal and illegal immigrants. Apparently you have between 15-30 million of the latter. But even if they all left, while legal immigration continued, the ultijmate effect would still be to push wages and benefits down.

My impression is that most people share your view that the government is sijmply the instrument of the corporations. Personally, I think it's a half-truth masquerading as the whole truth. The big business types I've met seem to feel persecuted by the government, which they see as pandering for the masses' votes. They certainly don't seem to feel that they have the government 'in their pocket'. I wonder to what extent the popularity of the corporations-run-the-whole-show doctine stems from endless television dramas in which the businessperson is always the villian - ?

You use the expression half truth almost as if it is all right. I am perfectly aware that it is a half truth, but am not of the opinion that it is acceptable in any way shape or form. It is not acceptable because it becomes closer to the whole truth with every year that passes. The day will surely come that unless the people begin to agitate for this to be reversed then the truly international corporation state is not so far off, and any democracy will be simply a sham. Nations will be run as towns and counties are today, with no real say in the greater issues of the day. We have little enough now and its about time this changed.

Corporations do not feel that government is in their pocket because in some ways it remains true. They are not very often in individual company's pocket, but they are essentially far more so in the pockets of corporations as a whole, and more easily influenced by them than any government will be by anyone else. In the UK Labour Governments were once considered to be in the pockets of Trade Unions, but this was never the case. Certainly they pushed through many radical reforms, and still do, because the roots of the party is in trade unionism and many trade unions are affiliated to the party and they influence greatly, though less so than was once the case, the direction of the Labout Party. However no party decision ever has any mandatory influence on Labour Governments, and in 80 years since the formation of the first Labout government this has always been the case, and Labour Governments have always done their own thing at the expense of party policy. On greater economic and social issues, Labour governments were always more influenced by the business and corporate community than they ever were in their roots and ran the country accordingly. This has never been more true than today. I do not argue that the party of any government can have any mandatory say in how a government acts. Governments are elected on a mandate by the people of the whole country, not merely those who are members of that party, and also the reality of governing, as it always must, mas to be faced. But that reality can surely be faced by doing other than corporate bidding? In this, the early part of the 21st century, it appears not, and its about time people took matters a little more seriosuly and acted to move this process into reverse before it is too late.

Let me pose a question which stands your last point on its head. Have you ever wondered why the dramatic portrayal often has the corporation and its bosses portayed as villains? Because Biwords, there is more than a grain of truth in it. Their are several dozen fleet loads of grain lorries full of truth in it. Dramatists like novelists write from life and observation of the world around them, and so we have the portrayal of the corporation nasty, and as time passes, and corprorations grab more control over our lives, these portrayals will become ever more far fetched. Only they wont be more far fetched will they? They will not even scratch on the truth, because we will simply not be allowed to know or see that truth.

[frenchvikki]

Absolutely. (Funny how those jobs all got done between 1925-1965, when the US had a moratorium on immigration). It might be truer to say "Americans are unwilling to do these jobs at less than a living wage", while the business class realizes that an open door immigration policy brings them workers whom they don't have to pay a living wage and who can basically be treated like shit. It's ironic that the Left, by supporting open-door immigration, sells out the workers, losing its last shred of integrity in the process.

A smaller population with more labour intensive work is why Biwords. From 1928 until the start of world war 2 the world was in a recession and jobs got done because there were hundreds of people queuing up for every job. From the beginning of the war until the mid 1960s war and a boom meant there was what is called full employment. As unemployment began to wither and old labour intensive industries change or die, this changed dramatically and by the 1980's there was once again mass unemployment.

The new technologies have so dramatically altered the face of industry and employment that it is almost unrecognisable. Immigration became necessary from the 1950s (in the UK) and 60s because of the full employment existed and the need to fill lower paid lower unskilled often dirty work. Immigration is still required (certainly in the UK) because the population is aging rapidly, and we are short of many skills required to have the economy truly prosper. Technology means things change so fast that its is often very difficult to keep up with training and retrainng the workforce and so things get out of balance. I cannot say for the US but recent government figures for the UK show that in fact immigrants produce more wealth per head to the economy than the native born population. I dont say that immigration isnt a problem, it is. But it is needed all the same. Illegal immigration is a much greater problem which has to be dealt with, but I do not believe that it is yet at crisis point, certainly not for Europe.

So once again we are on opposite sides of the fence Biwords, as you trot out the 'same old' that the right always does to discredit the left. The flower of truth and half truth which simply does not stand up and withers in the sun for lack of water.

[Sarasvati]

It's more than a rag on a pole. It's a historic symbol of what unites us as a country. I wish more people would honor our customs and courtesies.

While on this topic, people need to understand that the flag is a symbol of us as a people. It is not the banner of the Government of the United States. If you hate the current Government and/or GW, that's your privilege. However, don't take out your hatred on the people in general. That's what you do when you disgrace the flag.

The song, "God Bless America" is also about us as a people. The song isn't titled "God Bless the Government of the United States of America." We need to be intelligent enough to make that distinction.

That's why I get so upset every time I see Obama standing there without his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is being played. He demonstrates his hatred for us as a people every time he insults the National Anthem and our customs.

I am in complete support of your point of view and of the other patriotic posts by other Americans.

I am a fiercely patriotic Briton/Englishman and completely reject the views espoused by some of my compatriots in this thread.

And I would gladly wave the American flag and sing "God Bless America" too. What Jupiter is to the solar system, America has been and still is to the peoples of the earth.

Does that mean I think it a faultless country? Not at all, it has considerable failings just as all nations and cultures have (though they mostly have it far worse).

But America (like Britain) also has colossal accomplishments and, above all, sets up an aspiration that is truly worthy.

If this great nation sometimes falls short of the standards it sets for itself then so be it. At least, America does have those standards.

Sadly, there is an anti-Americanism across the globe (including Great Britain) that I find detestable and which is mostly inspired by envy and ignorance and fuelled by hate filled minds.

If, in our own lifetimes, the USA was somehow to be lost then its fiercest detractors would soon be praying - and I mean praying - for its return. Anti-Americanism is short-sitedness at its most foolhardy.

Again my point does not mean America does not have vital social, political and global concerns that it needs to address. Of course it does.

But we all have those concerns and those of us who live outside Ameica are best placed to do that with America rather than without her.

America ain't perfect but as a patriotic Briton I am delighted to say I would gladly wave both of our country's flags and sing "God Bless America" too.

To the many patriotic Americans out there, please be aware that very many of my British compatriots would side with my view.

I'm now going to get my Hendrix at Woodstock DVD out and play his fab Star Spangled Banner - gosh, it's good!

[vittoria]

a wiki afterthought...

( See Jimmy Hendrix) --

"Hendrix managed to deliver a historic performance, which featured his highly-regarded rendition of the "Star Spangled Banner", a solo improvisation which became a defining moment of the 1960s.

The controversial nature of Hendrix's style is epitomized in the sentiments expressed about his renditions of the "Star Spangled Banner", a tune he played loudly and sharply accompanied by simulated sounds of war (machine guns, bombs and screams) from his guitar. His impressionistic renditions have been described by some as anti-American mockery and by others a generation's statement on the unrest in U.S. society, oddly symbolic of the beauty, spontaneity, and tragedy endemic to Hendrix's life."

Oxymoron?

God bless free thinkers :)

[vittoria]

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4642

:banghead:

:banghead::compuser::bowdown::cutelaugh

[Sarasvati]

Hendrix gave his answer on the Dick Cavett show to the views you quoted, Vittoria.

He was ambiguous in his politics. He was a former paratooper himself and refused to condemn the Vietnam war.

He was a visionary because he wanted to cut through politics to get to a deeper, spiritual level through the medium of music.

And he played a major role in the West in helping to destroy the division of people based on colour.

I adore him and idolise him.

[31cho]

Hendrix gave his answer on the Dick Cavett show to the views you quoted, Vittoria.

He was ambiguous in his politics. He was a former paratooper himself and refused to condemn the Vietnam war.

He was a visionary because he wanted to cut through politics to get to a deeper, spiritual level through the medium of music.

And he played a major role in the West in helping to destroy the division of people based on colour.

I adore him and idolise him.

Have been reading this banter. And I happen to agree with Vitt.

I think that the term "oxymoron" is still appropriate...

I looked up the wikipedia, and have been silently reading and observing...

Looked up the word "ambiguous" too while I was at it:

"am·big·u·ous /æmˈbɪgyuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[am-big-yoo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations; equivocal: an ambiguous answer.
2. Linguistics. (of an expression) exhibiting constructional homonymity; having two or more structural descriptions, as the sequence Flying planes can be dangerous.
3. of doubtful or uncertain nature; difficult to comprehend, distinguish, or classify: a rock of ambiguous character.
4. lacking clearness or definiteness; obscure; indistinct: an ambiguous shape; an ambiguous future."

Unlike Jimi, we all can see transparently where your feelings lay. (see post # 146)

Must not have been an impressive enough idol.

IMHO.

[Sarasvati]

Have been reading this banter. And I happen to agree with Vitt.

I think that the term "oxymoron" is still appropriate...

I looked up the wikipedia, and have been silently reading and observing...

Looked up the word "ambiguous" too while I was at it:

"am·big·u·ous /æmˈbɪgyuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[am-big-yoo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations; equivocal: an ambiguous answer.
2. Linguistics. (of an expression) exhibiting constructional homonymity; having two or more structural descriptions, as the sequence Flying planes can be dangerous.
3. of doubtful or uncertain nature; difficult to comprehend, distinguish, or classify: a rock of ambiguous character.
4. lacking clearness or definiteness; obscure; indistinct: an ambiguous shape; an ambiguous future."

Unlike Jimi, we all can see transparently where your feelings lay. (see post # 146)

Must not have been an impressive enough idol.

IMHO.

I am bemused by this comment. Vitt and I have no disagreement on this subject.

I accept her use of the term "oxymoron" as great artists do inspire such interpretations.

There is no opposition between the thoughts in my posts and Hendrix's mission to transcend politics via music and spiritualism.

If this is an oxymoron for you then perhaps you should return to your dictionary.

[31cho]

http://www.oxymoronlist.com/

http://www.answers.com/topic/oxymoron

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4642

[Sarasvati]

http://www.oxymoronlist.com/

http://www.answers.com/topic/oxymoron

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4642

Aah - now where would you be without Dr Johnson's scaffold to hang yourself on.

"Castles made of sand"

[darkeyes]

I am in complete support of your point of view and of the other patriotic posts by other Americans.

I am a fiercely patriotic Briton/Englishman and completely reject the views espoused by some of my compatriots in this thread.

And I would gladly wave the American flag and sing "God Bless America" too. What Jupiter is to the solar system, America has been and still is to the peoples of the earth.

Does that mean I think it a faultless country? Not at all, it has considerable failings just as all nations and cultures have (though they mostly have it far worse).

But America (like Britain) also has colossal accomplishments and, above all, sets up an aspiration that is truly worthy.

If this great nation sometimes falls short of the standards it sets for itself then so be it. At least, America does have those standards.

Sadly, there is an anti-Americanism across the globe (including Great Britain) that I find detestable and which is mostly inspired by envy and ignorance and fuelled by hate filled minds.

If, in our own lifetimes, the USA was somehow to be lost then its fiercest detractors would soon be praying - and I mean praying - for its return. Anti-Americanism is short-sitedness at its most foolhardy.

Again my point does not mean America does not have vital social, political and global concerns that it needs to address. Of course it does.

But we all have those concerns and those of us who live outside Ameica are best placed to do that with America rather than without her.

America ain't perfect but as a patriotic Briton I am delighted to say I would gladly wave both of our country's flags and sing "God Bless America" too.

To the many patriotic Americans out there, please be aware that very many of my British compatriots would side with my view.

I'm now going to get my Hendrix at Woodstock DVD out and play his fab Star Spangled Banner - gosh, it's good!

God S.. if me had casa brownositis like ya has ere think me wud use that scaffold ya wer talkin bout PDQ an top me self..... even if me believed it me wudn dreama ingratiatin meself like that....

[Sarasvati]

God S.. if me had casa brownositis like ya has ere think me wud use that scaffold ya wer talkin bout PDQ an top me self..... even if me believed it me wudn dreama ingratiatin meself like that....

:tongue: Nice piss taking rejoinder DE, you have me laughing into my teacup.

[darkeyes]

:tongue: Nice piss taking rejoinder DE, you have me laughing into my teacup.

Babes... believe me... me wos not takin piss ere....

[Sarasvati]

Babes... believe me... me wos not takin piss ere....


:tongue::cool::tongue:

You got me again DE. Very funny.
Happy to play the laxative for you.

[darkeyes]

:tongue::cool::tongue:

You got me again DE. Very funny.
Happy to play the laxative for you.

Fine woteva... wosnt me that took the laxative... jus in ur case babes it seemes 2 hav cum outa rong end...:bigrin:

[Sarasvati]

Fine woteva... wosnt me that took the laxative... jus in ur case babes it seemes 2 hav cum outa rong end...:bigrin:

Not so good here DE. You had me on the ropes, I thought you were going to laugh me to death with your wit. Too direct, not enough subtlety -

But before you hit me with your next shot please note my arms are up in the air ready to surrender.

Please a little mercy

[*pan*]

If only there was as much concern for the Constitution -- and when it is being shredded and trampled upon with impunity -- as there is for the flag, maybe we'd begin to make some progress here. However, the sad fact is that an embarassingly large majority of Americans have never even bothered to read any of the Constitution for themselves, and many do not have the slightest idea (or even the slightest curiosity) why it says what it says. Flag-rage is fast-food easy, but responsible citizenship takes a little bit of work... work that all too many Americans simply won't bother to do.

:cool:

you said it all right here. too many people let and even help the govt's shred the constitution then worry about symboles. people are so misled and confused that if the forefathers were alive today , they would be in jail for exercising the freedoms that they made laws to protect and fought for. wanna talk about real americans, a real american will support the bill of rights and the constitution and it's freedoms, and not try to hinder or change it in any way or for any reason. remember what is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.
under the law that says no flag should fly above the us flag on us soil, the person that cut the mexican flag down for flying above it done right.

[Flounder1967]

Thanks for putting it in Context, SB. I try to take the flag as seriously as possible because to be honest. . .

There are times when I do feel "love it or leave it"
*Taylor*

I love the american flag for the one reason... We (the United States of America) fought and won if freedom for another country (England). We were the first country to ever do so and still be in full operation throught out the world.

I'm not one of those who feel the flag should be only flown. I like the things that people do to express themselves with the flag. I don't like it when someone shits or uses it for floor mat, but they can do that due to fact of freedom of expression.

I'm torn on what the guy did but would support him over the store that flew it below the mexican flag. I other countries the the store would have been torched and the owner killed for such an act. If you are live and work in the USA you better respect the poeples wishes.

[darkeyes]

I love the american flag for the one reason... We (the United States of America) fought and won if freedom for another country (England). We were the first country to ever do so and still be in full operation throught out the world.

I'm not one of those who feel the flag should be only flown. I like the things that people do to express themselves with the flag. I don't like it when someone shits or uses it for floor mat, but they can do that due to fact of freedom of expression.

I'm torn on what the guy did but would support him over the store that flew it below the mexican flag. I other countries the the store would have been torched and the owner killed for such an act. If you are live and work in the USA you better respect the poeples wishes.

Can we jus get a lil bitta perspective in this..not completely sure wotya sayin but best me can make out yas sayin (in ww2 me assumes) ya won the freedom of "England".. assumin ya meant the UK as a whole.... actually ya didn do owt of sort... the Brits did it themselves wiva lil help from free czecks, poles, ozzies, canadians, kiwiz, an yea a (very) few americans.. wotya ya did do wos 2 (from bout 1940 on begin 2 give us the werewithall 2 do it). Prob true without that help, me granpas an ther ma8s cudnta dun it but they did an wer grateful for the stuff the US gave em 2 c em through the worst times...... by the time americans got ova ere, the threat of invasion wos gone.... Hitler wos 2 bizzy bein stupid an takin on the Soviets..

But ya dus yasel down babes.... cos ya wer also in 1945 the US is prob the largest reason as much a the world stayed as free as it did.. but nun of it didya do on ya own...dus accept that the US in many ways by use of its military an its industrial base an the graft of its peeps did a massive amount 2 keep the world free of Nazism an Fascism.. but ya had help an didn do it on ya won.. The Soviet Union did jus a lil, an the Brits, and aforesaid Canadians, Ozzies, Kiwis, french, Czecks, Poles an lots more besides. Dunno wotya history books tellya but don seem 2 b same as the 1s me has read!!!

Takin ya second point.. assume wotya sayin is afta huge world war ya wer the 1st nation 2 operate as a major (the major) power afta such a huge conflagration..actually ya werent if that is wotya sayin.... the 1st was in fact these lil islands wer me lives rite now..afta 1815 an the defeat of Napoleon.... The wars gainst Napoleonic an Revolutionary France wer fought all ova the planet..South America, North America (the lil 1815 sideshow), India, Polynesia, Africa, an Europe... but the Brits had help in winnin ther lil struggle..Russians, Prussians, Austrians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutch, Italians, etc etc etc...At the end of it the Brits wer so far ahead of the rest of the planet in power it wos awesome. An it wos like that for bout a century tho toward end of 19th century the gap did begin 2 close.

Mite sound like me braggin ere..but me not... jus pointin out realities..feels 2 much shame for jus how bad the Brits acted throught the world round that time 2 brag...cos jus as me don like lotsa things that the US dus in the world now as the global superpower, ther wos a huge amount that the Brits did wich quite simply turns me stomache... sure they did sum gud things, jus as the US dus now..but no 1 shud eva turn ther eyes way from the crap they hit the world wiv...imperialistic stuff wich meant suppression of millions of peeps freedom, the rape of ther land, an struttin round the planet bein the "big I am" an doin more or less as it pleased. Sounds familiar???

An so 2 return 2 flags.. the Union flag wos waved throughout that period an is for the same reason 2 day.. 2 get peeps 2 respond to the bollox that governments want em 2 do in the name of "freedom" an patriotism.. wen in reality its bout wavin the flag 2 still try an b the "big I am" an as an expression of the inherent superiority of the "English" race, an sacrifice themselves in name of retainin the power of an elite an more or less do as they r bid... an peeps wonda wy me calls a flag a "rag"..jeez...

[Sarasvati]

Can we jus get a lil bitta perspective in this..not completely sure wotya sayin but best me can make out yas sayin (in ww2 me assumes) ya won the freedom of "England".. assumin ya meant the UK as a whole.... actually ya didn do owt of sort... the Brits did it themselves wiva lil help from free czecks, poles, ozzies, canadians, kiwiz, an yea a (very) few americans.. wotya ya did do wos 2 (from bout 1940 on begin 2 give us the werewithall 2 do it). Prob true without that help, me granpas an ther ma8s cudnta dun it but they did an wer grateful for the stuff the US gave em 2 c em through the worst times...... by the time americans got ova ere, the threat of invasion wos gone.... Hitler wos 2 bizzy bein stupid an takin on the Soviets..

But ya dus yasel down babes.... cos ya wer also in 1945 the US is prob the largest reason as much a the world stayed as free as it did.. but nun of it didya do on ya own...dus accept that the US in many ways by use of its military an its industrial base an the graft of its peeps did a massive amount 2 keep the world free of Nazism an Fascism.. but ya had help an didn do it on ya won.. The Soviet Union did jus a lil, an the Brits, and aforesaid Canadians, Ozzies, Kiwis, french, Czecks, Poles an lots more besides. Dunno wotya history books tellya but don seem 2 b same as the 1s me has read!!!

Takin ya second point.. assume wotya sayin is afta huge world war ya wer the 1st nation 2 operate as a major (the major) power afta such a huge conflagration..actually ya werent if that is wotya sayin.... the 1st was in fact these lil islands wer me lives rite now..afta 1815 an the defeat of Napoleon.... The wars gainst Napoleonic an Revolutionary France wer fought all ova the planet..South America, North America (the lil 1815 sideshow), India, Polynesia, Africa, an Europe... but the Brits had help in winnin ther lil struggle..Russians, Prussians, Austrians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutch, Italians, etc etc etc...At the end of it the Brits wer so far ahead of the rest of the planet in power it wos awesome. An it wos like that for bout a century tho toward end of 19th century the gap did begin 2 close.

Mite sound like me braggin ere..but me not... jus pointin out realities..feels 2 much shame for jus how bad the Brits acted throught the world round that time 2 brag...cos jus as me don like lotsa things that the US dus in the world now as the global superpower, ther wos a huge amount that the Brits did wich quite simply turns me stomache... sure they did sum gud things, jus as the US dus now..but no 1 shud eva turn ther eyes way from the crap they hit the world wiv...imperialistic stuff wich meant suppression of millions of peeps freedom, the rape of ther land, an struttin round the planet bein the "big I am" an doin more or less as it pleased. Sounds familiar???

An so 2 return 2 flags.. the Union flag wos waved throughout that period an is for the same reason 2 day.. 2 get peeps 2 respond to the bollox that governments want em 2 do in the name of "freedom" an patriotism.. wen in reality its bout wavin the flag 2 still try an b the "big I am" an as an expression of the inherent superiority of the "English" race, an sacrifice themselves in name of retainin the power of an elite an more or less do as they r bid... an peeps wonda wy me calls a flag a "rag"..jeez...

Hearing your appeal for perspective DE, I wonder if you have any thoughts on any of the following motley crew:-

King Edward I and Henry VI of England; Louis XI, Louis XIV and Louis XVI of France; Hernan Cortes (conquistador) of Spain; Genghis Khan of the Mongol Hordes; Vladimir I of Transylvania; the Avar Khan; Shalmaneser III of Assyria

[DiamondDog]

...... And on and on it goes .....

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!!

[darkeyes]

Hearing your appeal for perspective DE, I wonder if you have any thoughts on any of the following motley crew:-

King Edward I and Henry VI of England; Louis XI, Louis XIV and Louis XVI of France; Hernan Cortes (conquistador) of Spain; Genghis Khan of the Mongol Hordes; Vladimir I of Transylvania; the Avar Khan; Shalmaneser III of Assyria

They wer all bastards 2 babes.... but least they all dead bastards... so don matta ne more!!! Prob responnsible tween em for spawnin that effin Spanish referee!!!! Wud make em even bigga bastards!

[Sarasvati]

They wer all bastards 2 babes.... but least they all dead bastards... so don matta ne more!!!

That's a bit unfair. Henry VI for example wasn't a "bastard". He was a man of the utmost piety. And what would France have come to without Louis XI?

Do you think that they have no relevance to today, though they are long gone? The history that we are familiar with surely hinges crucially on the deeds of some of them.

But which ones? i think Skater's friend Nietzsche might recognise my point.

In addition do people like Roger Bacon, St Thomas Aquinas, Dante, Giotto, Erasmus, John Dee, Kalicho the Inuk, Galileo and King Oliver with his Dippermouth Blues matter today. They are long gone but are they irrelevant to us today?

I'm searching for the perspective you yourself requested DE.

[darkeyes]

Me asked for sum perspective on a coupla lil claims Flounder made S.. an best me can cleared up a lil... did not expect, nor dus me intend 2 gerrin 2 huge lengthy row bout loada dead peeps...sum of whom me knows nowt bout at all.. sure evry 1 of them, jus like evry 1 of us has made a mark on history, howeva gr8, howeva small, sure wivout he contribution many things wud b different... the "if I killed Adolf syndrome"...

Did not ask for or want..an hav no intention of gettin involved in bloody gr8 tedious argy bargy bout ne or all of em... so Fran aint risin 2 bait ere hun...hav betta things 2 do wiv me time than get inta bloody wide rangin perspective bout loada guys who r long dead.

[Sarasvati]

Me asked for sum perspective on a coupla lil claims Flounder made S.. an best me can cleared up a lil... did not expect, nor dus me intend 2 gerrin 2 huge lengthy row bout loada dead peeps...sum of whom me knows nowt bout at all.. sure evry 1 of them, jus like evry 1 of us has made a mark on history, howeva gr8, howeva small, sure wivout he contribution many things wud b different... the "if I killed Adolf syndrome"...

Did not ask for or want..an hav no intention of gettin involved in bloody gr8 tedious argy bargy bout ne or all of em... so Fran aint risin 2 bait ere hun...hav betta things 2 do wiv me time than get inta bloody wide rangin perspective bout loada guys who r long dead.


With respect DE you did deliver a major statement in reply to Flounder which you can not be surprised may itself invite a reply. You also appealed for perspective.

My replies to you were aimed at illustrating perspective . I have probably failed to achieve this aim. But I still think my method valid.

I didn't intend to draw you into a historical discussion, just to demonstrate how an alteration in perspective also alters the way we assess events.

We are probably both "flagging" with this dialogue. Shall we move on to softer themes?

[darkeyes]

With respect DE you did deliver a major statement in reply to Flounder which you can not be surprised may itself invite a reply. You also appealed for perspective.

My replies to you were aimed at illustrating perspective . I have probably failed to achieve this aim. But I still think my method valid.

I didn't intend to draw you into a historical discussion, just to demonstrate how an alteration in perspective also alters the way we assess events.

We are probably both "flagging" with this dialogue. Shall we move on to softer themes?

Don mind replies..ne thin me says is open 2 woteva ne 1 wonts 2 say...slag me off tear wot me sed 2 shreds.. agree, nit pik, spit on or woteva they like... an just as they hav the rite 2 do that me has teh rite 2 ansa ne response in ne way me c's fit!! muah!

Am all too well aware our personal perspective of ne thin colas how we c events..how we c our lives pan out... an how every 1 of us c's things diff... an that my dear..is jus as it shud b...

[31cho]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!

CUT DOWN THAT F N POST ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

[DiamondDog]

CUT DOWN THAT F N POST ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

How long until this thread is locked?

You can say fuck and flame on, nobody really gives a toss, and I've seen worse posts on here.

[vittoria]

How long until this thread is locked?

You can say fuck and flame on, nobody really gives a toss, and I've seen worse posts on here.

in the immortal words of WarGames...

"Would you like to play a game?"

"g-l-o-b-a-l t-h-e-r-m-a-l n-u-c-l-e-a-r w-a-r"

:cool:

[vittoria]

"how bout a nice game of chess?":smilies15

[DiamondDog]

in the immortal words of WarGames...

"Would you like to play a game?"

"g-l-o-b-a-l t-h-e-r-m-a-l n-u-c-l-e-a-r w-a-r"

:cool:

That's really dated. LOL I wonder who else remembers that movie?

[DiamondDog]

"how bout a nice game of chess?":smilies15

Ever play chess while on acid?

[Cesca]

That's really dated. LOL I wonder who else remembers that movie?I dont really I am too young, but I understand from reading the newspapers and from the telly they are about to rerelease it.

[diB4u]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!



Oh how funny this thread is... Over a year old eh?

Well as I'm not American, I am English first British second, can i just add my two :2cents

REAL Americans???? Ahh you must be refering the the native americans then? Wasn't they in America before well before the Europeans and the Africans came?

Maybe ppl should fly that flag instead? What? Sorry.

People can be come too centered when it comes to identity. This thread, if i had been in a good day would've laughted out loud by some commments that people have said.

I've never met a Real Native American, I would most like to, to learn the stories of long lost folk. To gather information, to seek and be heard.

I love America for many reasons, for inventing CSI, Friends, Fast food... But can't we all just agree to disagree. :female::)

[Lateralus]

For those that think the guy that cut down the mexican flag that was flying over the American Flag, that he had to do it in front on the media, can all got to canada, or mexico. Either you LOVE THIS COUNTRY, OR LEAVE IT!

I am so sick and tried of people saying how bad this country is. Do us REAL Americans a favor, GET OUT!

That man did what he should have done.

Tim.

Go ahead flame me, I dont care. MY OPINION!

Real American Lyrics

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside
Ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide

If you hurt my friends, can you hurt my pride
I gotta be a man, I can't let it slide
I am a real American
Fight for the rights of every man
I am a real American
Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

Well I'm feeling strong about right and wrong (Ooo yeah)
And I don't take trouble for very long.
I got somethin' deep inside of me
Courage is the thing that keeps us free

I am a real American
Fight for the rights of every man
I am a real American
Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

I am a real American
Fight for the rights of every man
I am a real American
Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

If you hurt my friends, can you hurt my pride
I gotta be a man, I can't let it slide
I am a real American
Fight for the rights of every man
I am a real American
Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

(Starts doing Hulk Hogan poses to the board)

Forget flag burning. Someone needs to burn this thread.:2cents:

[Azrael]

http://www.planetvids.com/html/Hulk-Hogan-the-Real-American.html
fuckin' priceless!

[The Barefoot Contess]

As Mary I of Scotland put it, "Remember, gentlemen, that the theater of history is wider than the realm of England".

[Lateralus]

http://www.planetvids.com/html/Hulk-Hogan-the-Real-American.html
fuckin' priceless!

I remember that video! lmao OMG. He headbutted the Soviet flag!

[DiamondDog]

http://www.planetvids.com/html/Hulk-Hogan-the-Real-American.html
fuckin' priceless!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fiubdW3HREk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v391Eju-wX0

[Azrael]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fiubdW3HREk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v391Eju-wX0

Oh come now, rolling a blunt is easy :)
Now that I think of it........

[biwords]

Immigration is still required (certainly in the UK) because the population is aging rapidly, and we are short of many skills required to have the economy truly prosper....I cannot say for the US but recent government figures for the UK show that in fact immigrants produce more wealth per head to the economy than the native born population...

1. Japan also has an aging population; it has no immigration and remains prosperous.

2. Hmmmn, I thought that governments were just the 'tool of the corporations', and here you are accepting a government study saying that immigrants contribute more to the economy than the native-born...so: do you trust government or don't you? I can well see why the corporations want more and more immirgants -- to knock down the price of labour.

[biwords]

What Jupiter is to the solar system, America has been and still is to the peoples of the earth.

A solid core, but mostly just a lot of gas? :)

I like America very much, but I like what it once was far, far better.

So what do you think of Nick Griffin and the BNP?

Cheers,

Paul

[biwords]

The controversial nature of Hendrix's style is epitomized in the sentiments expressed about his renditions of the "Star Spangled Banner", a tune he played loudly and sharply accompanied by simulated sounds of war (machine guns, bombs and screams) from his guitar...


As one of the few here who was actually around (though not present) when Woodstock happened, I always thought that Hendix's riff on The Star-Spangled Banner was one long musical sneer at the country. What do you think, Vitt?

[biwords]

[QUOTE=Sarasvati;84933]Hendrix gave his answer on the Dick Cavett show to the views you quoted, Vittoria.

He was ambiguous in his politics. He was a former paratooper himself and refused to condemn the Vietnam war.
QUOTE]

Well, I'll be -- I take it back, then.

[FalconAngel]

....... a government study saying that immigrants contribute more to the economy than the native-born...so: do you trust government or don't you? I can well see why the corporations want more and more immirgants -- to knock down the price of labour.


I would LOVE to see that study, because I cannot see how immigrants currently contribute more to the economy than the native born. After the first generation, the legal immigrants are no longer immigrants and the children, born in this country, of legal immigrants are native born.
Of course, if you include those descendants of immigrants as immigrants, then, yes, of course they do.

Of course, that may be the same study that pro-amnesty people use to claim that illegals contribute to our society, which is hogwash, since illegals pay no taxes, take jobs away from those who can legally work here (thus reducing paid taxes) and use our tax money to pay for their expensive medical costs (which many citizens can ill afford) at emergency rooms and hospitals across the country.

And you're right, with an illegal immigrant work force, corporations can afford to produce shoddy work at much lower prices, thus saving their golden parachutes at the expense of their customers.
That is the ONLY benefit of illegal immigration. Corporate execs and their government shills reap the benefits, and they are the only ones.

[darkeyes]

Havin reread Vikkis piece, she talkin bout legal immigrants, an takin the illegal outa the equation. She did in fact state that illegal immigration is a problem wich had 2 b dealt wiv an even me agrees wiv that... our solutions based on wot she has sed 2 that lil prob wud undoubtadly b much diff...

Did catch summat bout this otha week but fraid been lil 2 bizzy 2 reelly look inta it, an still havent . But it dus make sense 2 me .. peeps who cum 2 the UK as legal immigrants have a different work ethos from the native population. Is a fact they work longer hours. Undastand concerns bout drivin down wages but ther is no evidence that they do.. Legal immigrants, particularly those from the Indian sub continent and those of Chinese ethnicity have a far greater determination for success and for their childrens success than seems 2 b the case for the native born population. The considerable number of entrepreneurs (yea me knos..capitalist lackeys.. not summat me approves of 2 much) an millionaires wich exist wiv subcontinent an chinese origins is substantial. Wiv the immigrant black population this is not generally so, and it is ther that the figures r unlikely 2 show and prove Vikkis claim. An yet ther are many black men an wimmen who have indeed made a great success of ther lives since coming to this country.If we then look at the large numbers of legal immigrants from the rest of the European Union, an ther r large numbers of those also, an from otha eastern European countries, in the main, like with Asian an Chinese immigrants ther is a greater determination 2 succeed wich may ultimatley b the deciding factor wich tips the balance. Immigration from Turkey an otha Arab nations is substantial an many of them make a great success of ther lives

Ther r also many hundreds of thousands of American, Canadian, South African, New Zealander an Australian immigrants an increasin numba from Zimbabwe an other African nations. Am not gonna make the obvious comment bout them an ther ethnic origins... save 2 say that they make a huge contribution 2 our economy and our everyday lives.

So wiv a lil thot we can c jus wy its quite possible that legal immigrants may well make a greata contribution 2 the British economy individually overall than do British natives. It aint summat 2 stress about an certainly not 2 immediately tell the woman she is talkin bollox...

Before peeps jump down the throats of othas... do bitta thinkin an bitta research foreyas makes claims...am makin no claims woteva ere..jus pointin out that wot she sez, an the Government apparently claim for the UK is perfectly feasible, an in fact me thinks is more likely than not... wetha or not ya count ther kids wereva they cum from is moot...cos 1st or second generation native born brits by definition hav been so influenced by ther parents an grandparents who wer immigrants. Count em as immigrants then it strengthens the argument..count em as native born it don weaken it 1 jot cosa parental influence. They make a valuable contribution wich had ther parents not cum 2 the UK they wud not therwise hav made

The US has particular probs..at this time me not gonna even try an scratch surface ere, but have no doubt that at least summa things we find in the UK r mirrored in the United States an otha nations who have ne large scale immigration. Jus forget the illegal thingie rite now....we talkin ere bout legal immigration...an fore yas all gets hot unda colla bout that.. how many of yas r native Americans afta all??? Am sure the ancestors of most of ya found the same prejudice that many r handin out 2 them that r tryin 2 make a livin in the US now. Certainly if ya wer Irish, or Polish, or Jewish, or Russian or a myriad of otha origins.. how proud wud they b of the welcum many Americans give immigrants..legal immigrants... thats wot Vik wos talkin bout nowt else.

O yea..an jus 1 thing that Falcon Angels did say bout illegal... them makin no contribution 2 US society (an it works for UK as well). They do ya know... pay taxes... they buy food 2eat, they rent (an even shock horror.. buy housin an otha property), they travel on buses an trains, even aeroplanes, own cars, american push bikes, motor cycles, furnish ther homes wiv american guds, work for firms wich if they went bust wud no longa b able 2 purchase guds from more reputable companies wich supply those "sweatshop" firms in raw materials comuting office furniture machinery etc. Many work for mainstream companies wiv forged documentation...naughty sure..but becausa that documentation many even pay income tax as well as the otha indirect taxes on the guds they buy. Ther r a million an 1 ways ILLEGAL immigrants contribute 2 US (an British) society.. 1 of em is often they luff the place an wud lay ther lives down for it... an prob quite a few hav over the years... but they r illegals..they r shit an they don count....

[DiamondDog]

Oh come now, rolling a blunt is easy :)
Now that I think of it........

What are they like? The idea sounds nasty to me.

[FalconAngel]

Darkeyes, here in the states there is no federal tax on the purchase of food products. Here in Florida there is only the state taxes on most goods, but not on food items, since the income from tourism makes up for the difference. And we are not the only state.
Now you could say that they pay taxes, but that is only sales taxes which, in Florida is only at 6%. However, as I said before, no sales tax on food at the grocery store. So the only taxes that they pay are in sales, which for the illegal immigrant is limited compared to someone who can stay "on the grid". They pay no income tax (approximately 20% - 30% for most median income families) which pays for all of the medical expenses for those who have no medical coverage.

We pay our federal taxes, but since illegals work off the books, then there is no one, officially, to tax and the companies make out by not having to pay out in federal taxes for employees that are not "on the books".
Here in the States, it is difficult, at best, for an illegal to own property in any area where they can live anonomously. The cost of housing and the cost of living preclude it.
In addition to that, illegals would not be able to own real estate for very long, since that would put them "on the grid" which they don't want if they want to stay here as long as possible.

The supposed "contribution" by illegals is so minimal, that if they were all to leave, there would be no significant negative impact on the American economy. As a matter of fact, there would be a boost to the economy with more citizens working and more money in taxes being paid.
Any negative impact would be very short-lived as more of the legally employable population went to work and began paying their taxes.

[darkeyes]

Didya read all of wot me sed??? Jeez sumtimes wonda wy me bothas... s'ok..send em all ome 2 wereva... an c wer it getsya.... believe me..it wudn b the nice job creation scheme an panacea u appear 2 think it will....

[FalconAngel]

Well, I can only speak for the illegal immigration problem here in the US. I do know that since Emperor Bush stole office, there has been a huge influx of illegal immigration. In our case, the biggest issue is with enforcement of the existing laws.
Just a few months ago, 2 Sheriff's deputies and a border patrol officer were tried and convicted of shooting a drug dealer from mexico. He crossed the border illegally and fired upon them, but the fed found this dirtbag and gave him immunity so that he could testify against them.
Our government cares more about the illegals than they do for law-abiding citizens and those who protect us.

There is another, little known issue going on here as well. Bush wants to build, and turn over to mexico for operation, a toll road directly from mexico to Canada.

Since nature abhores a vacuum, then a sudden departure of the illegal immigrants would force companies that currently employ them to fill that void with American workers, many of whom are homeless, and pay them decent wages, and while this may cause prices to go up in some products, it would lower the unemployment rate, which is much better for any nation.
The homeless rate, which is almost as high as it was during the great depression, might even go down as well.

And remember, that since illegal aliens are not documented, any that are unemployed often turn to crime, since they are not eligible and cannot get on the dole.

Of course, there is a whole underground crime set related to forging papers for illegals to allow them to defraud the people of this country of unemployment money. That money is not put back in the system, since the illegals still end up not paying taxes and not contributing to the general good.

The immigration problem here is like having a stranger and his family stay at your home indefinitely and not help around the house.

[darkeyes]

Dunno wy me opens me gob.. sum peeps jus get an idea in ther eds an won change...ah well..no wonda the world is fukked!

[Sarasvati]

A solid core, but mostly just a lot of gas? :)

I like America very much, but I like what it once was far, far better.

So what do you think of Nick Griffin and the BNP?

Cheers,

Paul

Hello Biwords,

I must say I was impressed by your discourse with Frenchvikki - particularly, the reference to Thomas Hobbes. Such an important thinker.

You asked my opinion on the BNP.

I find them utterly odious and traitorous. They and people like them stain the flag. Is that clear enough?

While I am defiantly patriotic, multiracial Britain is my chief reason for celebration. I greatly welcome all the people of all descriptions who have come to these islands to share my country with me.

And very many of them are patriotic too and want to wave the flag. I cheer every time any of them do.

It is a great challenge, of course, for a society to handle so much change over such short periods. And it is not surprising there have been great struggles in the process and many people have suffered injustices.

I don't deny we still have a long way to go as a society but we are trying.

Have I made myself clear biwords?

[darkeyes]

Hobbes??? Jeez S...quotin ima desperate thing...

Dus agree bout BNP (in a general way.. summa ya reasons a bit blotchy) tho buncha arseholes...shows ya wot happens tho wen the establishment parties fuk up... shades a the rise of Nazism in Germany... only in a lil way so far but enuff 2 put us on our guard.. not 2 sure eitha Tories or Labour up 2 stranglin the sods progress..so reckon its gonna b up 2 the anti Nazi's among the general population...

They traitorous an patriotic huh??? Odd usa words...traitorous been used bout me often enuff but only 1ce been called patriotic..Blue Biyou me thinks...but don accept eitha description ne way attached 2 me... them sure, at least in part... traitors 2 the human race..traitors 2 compassion an undastandin..traitors to themselves.. an traitors 2 intelligent thinkin... patriotic?? Doubt it.. even if ya believed in patriotism..ya still hasta hav sum feelin for the peeps who live in the place ya bein patriotic bout... don c much sign 2 ne not even the native population who oppose em... me has funnily enuff compassion for em..cos in general mostly they r of below average intelligence an ther despair has led em 2 b easily led by intelligent but greedy selfish power mad arseholes who jus wan everythin for themselves..they r Griffins SA mostly..bully boys who don hav a gr8 deal in ther heads, an wot lil they do hav is taken up wiv h8 an odedience 2 the party line....

O yea.. an talkin of the SA..we all know wot happened 2 them afta a few years of Nazi power in Germany!!!

[slocum5]

This colloquy begins to lack the extension of love, respect and dignity.

[darkeyes]

This colloquy begins to lack the extension of love, respect and dignity.

Since ya mention it Slocum...wot me has at end of me posts refers 2 me sexuality..nowt else.. had sed it before sumwer.. an don expect it 2 b questioned by u or ne 1 else. It also in the main dus extend 2 mos peeps in the ordinary way of things, but it dus not extend 2, has neva extended 2..an will neva extend 2 the rise of fascism an nazism, xenophobia or racial intolerance in my country or ne wer else. Nazism an the rise of the BNP in my country is a nasty an evil development wich, shud they eva gain power in my country, is likely 2 hav peeps like me, like you, an like every otha person, gay bi or trangendered exterminated wivout ne compunction... they will hunt us down an slaughter us by the thousand, an they will turn on every otha non white person, then every Gypsy, Jew, Arab eastern European, Chinese an every otha non ethnically British person an they will eitha deport, transport, force to migrate or exterminate them in precisely the way Nazi Germany did from 1933-45. They will crush an eliminate all democratic opposition an ultimately wots left of the British people will live in fear fro ther lives every single day that remains 2 em... it is an odious an terrifyin scenario me for 1 has no intention of standin around an lettin happen wivout doin woteva me can 2 stop it...

I will not extend love respect or dignity to those who preach hatred to ne otha human bein for ne reason. Me has no intention of beina turkey who voted for Christmas.. if u cant c the difference..then the millions of peeps throughout the world, an the hundreds of thousands of Americans who died fighting the creeds of Fascism and Nazism r obviously of no consequence 2 u, an ur compassion for the victims of all oppression throughout history have neither your sympathy or your undastanding.

[bigregory]

It is great to be a Canadian.

[darkeyes]

It is great to be a Canadian.

Jus gr8 2 b alive babes...canadian merican brit woteva...

[<<GOD>>]

If there were ever a thread in serious need of a gratiutous sex scene....Geeez!!!
Leave it to me to....resurrect the all but dead….just a little Sunday morning humor;)

<<God>>

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

As a former Veterans Reps Aide, I say that what the man did was wrong. NO ONE has the right to cut down Any flag. Granted, the US flag Always flies above any other in This country, but that still doesnt give him, or anyone else the right to defile a flag, of any kind. To me, it looked like he was being a glory hound and was looking to get his 15 mins in the spotlight. All someone had to do was point out to the Hispanic man that he was causing a serious violation of protocol, and thats it. But Nooo, there always has to be some kind of Hot Head out there kicking a turd to keep a stink going. (Kinda like what I'm doing right now with stateing my opinion)
There are right ways and wrong ways to do things, His was a wrong way.
My 2 cents worth.
Cat.

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[bimwmoh]

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[dowmass]

I am sick and tired of this thread - the bickering, the brickbats, the hatred, and animosity.
This is one place, where we did not discuss politics, left vs right, race, and all that bullshit. I wish someone had told the OP that this is a place for BISEXUALS - talk about your views, opinions and experiences about SEX.

Someone should have stopped this thread from growing - there are literally a million forums, groups and blogs to discuss that... In my opinion, BISEXUALS.COM is NOT one of them.